Pod Insights Personally Creation Myth, Episode 7: Orb of Calm About this episode Four of Helena’s friends are pregnant. They’re spending more time with other mothers and mothers-to-be. Will there still be room for her? And while her friends experience the biggest transformation, Helena clings to her routines. Why can’t she be more spontaneous—like her sister! Her sister once got on a boat to the North Pole with six strangers to see vegetarian orcas. It did not go well. But it taught her the biggest truth on planet earth. Can Helena learn it too?
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Hi, I just had to tell you that I think your podcast has changed my life.
0:06 Speaker 01 Season one of Sold a Story hit a nerve. It was about teaching kids to read. We have gotten this wrong in New York and all across the nation. Now we're back with a new season. This time, we go beyond reading.
0:19 Speaker 00 I've literally been told by my district that I should not be teaching math. I should be facilitating math.
0:26 Speaker 01 I'm Emily Hanford. Go to your podcast app and follow Sold a Story.
0:31 Speaker 02 This is a CBC Podcast.
0:37 Speaker 03 I am wondering if you still feel nauseous? Like, when does that stuff go away? It's not the entire time, is it? I mean, I've been also wondering, like, do babies even have feelings when they're in the womb? Do babies have thoughts? Do they? I mean, not the born ones, but the ones inside you. Like, are you, as a mother, aware of that? I mean, I guess you're aware of, like, when they're agitated and kicking or something. But are they agitated? Maybe they're just excited. Or maybe they're dreaming of running.
1:18 Speaker 03 I mean, imagine that your first experience of the world is in the International Space Station, and you're weightless, kind of floating around. Of course, you wouldn't have a concept of running. You can't even stand. Oh, yeah.
1:41 Speaker 04 It's such a great question you had about what he's thinking. You know, does he have thoughts? Am I aware of his thoughts? And I am not. I'm just becoming aware of his movements. Interestingly, when I'm moving around, he's in the space station, as you put it. And he sleeps most of the time because it's kind of soothing. But when I lay down, he gets more active because he's not being sort of rocked gently. I wonder how it feels from when I go to my spin classes and pedal like a maniac for 30 seconds at a time.
2:25 Speaker 03 Listening to my friend Jocelyn, I was surprised. She sounded just the way she always did, amused, relaxed, as if she wasn't five months into growing an entirely new human being out of her own body, and since I would never know what that was like. I wanted to hear every last detail. And Jocelyn humored me. She shared her thoughts about C-sections versus vaginal births. She told me about this one class where a nurse showed her a terrifying animation of a baby sucking a nipple. Did you know they can suck so hard any regular nipple stretches out to the size of a lipstick?
3:07 Speaker 03 Not long after, I heard from three other friends, all pregnant. I was eager to ask them too, but they were busy, probably hanging out with other moms or moms-to-be, and I didn't blame them. I was like a tourist who'd wandered into a war zone because they were going through it. Ryan had a hard time breathing, even just sitting on a chair, something to do with making blood for the baby. Elise developed anxiety bordering on psychosis. Soon, all four of my friends would blow up the pain scale giving birth, and then they could stop sleeping and start parenting. Good luck.
3:51 Speaker 03 No wonder they needed friends who were in trenches with them. Totally fine. I would not be on the outside forever, right? It was May when Jocelyn gave birth to a baby boy, Ellis. Brennan was with me when I received the news.
4:15 Speaker 05 How do you feel?
4:17 Speaker 06 I feel very happy for her.
4:18 Speaker 03 We looked at the pictures. Alice, who was born underweight, looked no bigger than a loaf of bread.
4:26 Speaker 06 Oh, my god, so stinking cute. Duh, look, the little hat, oh. My friend did that.
4:36 Speaker 05 Good job.
4:37 Speaker 06 Good job. God, I can't wait to hear her. It's so weird, you know, like, I feel like as soon as there's a baby,
4:45 Speaker 06 I feel like a family kind of closes ranks, you know?
4:49 Speaker 06 Like, she probably doesn't want to spend one second away from looking at him and, you know what I mean?
4:55 Speaker 05 Mm-hmm.
4:56 Speaker 06 That's why I'm being super selfish, Brad, but I really find that hard, that, like, now it's kind of a closed box there, and I will get some updates thrown in my direction, but I don't have the same, like, rights to her. Does that make sense? I want to be a part of it.
5:17 Speaker 05 I understand what you're saying, yeah.
5:20 Speaker 06 I want to be a part of their life.
5:24 Speaker 06 And I want to be a part of their life as it changes. You know, I'm not saying, like, I want my friend exactly as she was when, you know, she didn't have a baby, like, that's like the opposite of what I'm saying, like, I want to see my friend change and I want to
5:42 Speaker 06 just don't want to not know them anymore, you know, like, really, really know them.
5:53 Speaker 06 And I want them to let me know them. You know? It should be so busy. It's also just a practical thing, right? It's like your priorities change and you have to be like, well, there's a number of things I cannot do anymore.
6:08 Speaker 05 Maybe, I mean, and certainly there will be change in having, like, a whole block of time, but that doesn't mean that you can't still know her and be close to her or that you're gonna lose her. I mean, that's sort of what I'm maybe hearing is like you're worried that you're gonna lose them.
6:26 Speaker 06 I am.
6:33 Speaker 06 God, I feel so selfish. Like, I'm so happy for Jocelyn that she has a baby.
6:37 Speaker 05 I know you are.
6:40 Speaker 06 I'm just afraid, you know?
6:42 Speaker 05 I hear that you're afraid, baby.
6:50 Speaker 06 And like, for me, friends are like... Friends are my family.
6:58 Speaker 06 You know, and... What are the ingredients for a family, you know? It's love.
7:07 Speaker 06 I don't need a baby, I just need love. And I guess that's what I'm afraid of, that if my friends have babies, that they won't have love for me.
7:16 Speaker 05 Yeah, things are gonna change, but... You're worried about your friends not loving you or something? I don't worry about that.
7:31 Speaker 06 Yeah.
7:33 Speaker 05 You're a very lovable person.
7:37 Speaker 06 I like being a very lovable person.
7:43 Speaker 06 I think that's my main purpose. I wanna love, and I wanna be loved.
7:49 Speaker 06 And so, thank you for loving me.
7:51 Speaker 05 I love you so much, baby.
7:54 Speaker 06 I love you so much, too.
8:00 Speaker 06 Okay, now let's eat some of the soup that I so lovingly made for you. It wasn't really for you.
8:05 Speaker 05 You didn't make it for me, that is bullshit.
8:08 Speaker 06 I just made it because I wanted it.
8:21 Speaker 03 Five weeks later, I was on a plane to Portland, Oregon, to visit baby Ellis.
8:36 Speaker 03 I'm Helena de Groot and from CBC's Personally, this is Creation Myth.
8:51 Speaker 03 Jocelyn had warned me about the state they were in, she and her husband Taylor, and she didn't lie. Since Ellis was born prematurely, he had to eat twice as often as most newborns, every hour to hour and a half.
9:07 Speaker 03 For much of the afternoon, Jocelyn was hooked up to a breast pump and bottles from pumps and feeds filled up their coffee table and countertop faster than I could wash them. Both new parents guzzled coffee like long-haul truckers driving through the night.
9:25 Speaker 03 I tried to make myself as useful as I could, but most of what they wanted, it seemed, was for me to remind them of who they were, writers who could have conversations about more than the consistency of poop.
9:41 Speaker 03 One morning, we went to the park.
9:43 Speaker 06 Oh, this weather is nice.
9:45 Speaker 03 By the time they'd gotten everything into the stroller and walked a few blocks,
9:49 Speaker 06 Uh-oh.
9:50 Speaker 03 Ellis needed to eat again, so we went looking for a spot.
9:56 Speaker 03 I saw a picnic table.
9:57 Speaker 06 How about here?
9:59 Speaker 07 Actually, you know what? It's a pretty good idea.
10:02 Speaker 03 While Jocelyn maneuvered onto the bench with Ellis in her arms, I held his bottle.
10:08 Speaker 07 Now it looks like it's your little drink.
10:12 Speaker 06 Have you tried?
10:13 Speaker 04 That's a... No. It hasn't occurred to me to try either my own breast milk or the formula.
10:19 Speaker 06 Have you tried?
10:20 Speaker 07 You know, like a little, you know, like not, like it wasn't a dedicated effort to.
10:24 Speaker 06 It's not like a full meal.
10:27 Speaker 07 Surprisingly,
10:30 Speaker 07 a sweet note to you, you're not expecting.
10:38 Speaker 03 We sat there, taking in the sun.
10:43 Speaker 03 Then Taylor took Ellis home. Jocelyn and I kept talking. I told her how surprised I'd been by the effects Ellis had on me. Like, I'm not the chillest person on the planet. But with him, I feel so chill. Like, he's crying and I take him into my arms and there's like something primal that happens. Like, I feel almost like, literally, my heart rate slowing down, my breathing slowing down. And I become sort of this, this orb of calm. You know what I mean?
11:17 Speaker 08 I see it in you. I see the way it kind of washes over you and you are calming even to me, who is not being held.
11:30 Speaker 08 Right? Even just the way that you touch him is a new mode of being that I don't see from you.
11:39 Speaker 03 I know. And I'm not his mom and I didn't give birth to him. Like, I didn't know I had that thing, that sort of instinct.
11:46 Speaker 08 I mean, it must be evolutionary, right? Like, we used to live in tribes that moved together and babies needed to be soothed by non-mothers all the time.
12:02 Speaker 03 Oh, yes.
12:04 Speaker 08 It's my hypothesis.
12:10 Speaker 03 I sat there, beaming. I was a member of the tribe. I was an orb of calm. I was... My heart felt big. Maybe I could be whatever this little boy needed. Except one thing.
12:30 Speaker 03 I don't know. I don't play well. I didn't even play as a kid. I like reading, you know, I like drinking coffee with my parents, you know, like I was such a little adult, that was all I ever wanted to be. You know, and like unstructured play, that always seemed like, what am I even supposed to do? Like I, yeah, it was not for me. So like when kids are at that age where they wanna play, I'm really not into it.
12:58 Speaker 08 But I can imagine, I believe you, but I could imagine you being very playful.
13:05 Speaker 03 Really?
13:05 Speaker 08 Yeah, just like it was your instinct to sing to the baby. I can imagine you playing hide and seek. I can imagine you making little monster noises for the baby or pretending to eat his, his hand.
13:21 Speaker 03 Yes, I will do sound effects for as long as anyone wants and probably a little bit longer than anyone wants. Sound effects are my jam.
13:30 Speaker 08 That's play.
13:32 Speaker 03 Yeah, what, what else came up? I mean,
13:36 Speaker 03 I love being around him and also it does not make me want a baby. And that's very new. Not that I before wanted a baby, but before it made me wonder like, oh, maybe I'm wrong for thinking, or maybe it's a story that I've just gotten too attached to.
13:54 Speaker 03 You know, and I don't feel that way anymore. It's just like, I'm so happy that you're my friend and that you invite me in. I think that's a really beautiful feeling, to see you trust me with him.
14:07 Speaker 08 Oh, of course, you're family, you know, I, I love you like a sister.
14:15 Speaker 08 It's, I mean, Taylor and I both love seeing you with him, but we just both love having you here, period, with or without him.
14:36 Speaker 03 The next day, I was back on the plane. The view out the window was beautiful. The clouds seemed to be exhaling daylight. The sky was blue. My thoughts were clear. Did I want to take out my computer and journal? I didn't need to write them down. I wouldn't forget because it was obvious. I was more than the stories I told about myself. I'd been so sure I would be excluded, cast out. But no, I was a member of the tribe. I knew I was neurotic and serious, but I could be calm. I could be playful.
15:21 Speaker 03 Maybe I could even become more outgoing, more adventurous, say yes to things. Think big.
15:37 Speaker 03 I forgot to think big almost a moment we landed. I got distracted hauling my suitcase from the gate to the air train to the bus to the subway home. And once I was home, I saw that I had to buy new sponges and replace the moth traps. I also had to cook dinner. I had carrots in the fridge, so I looked up what I could do with them. Hmm, glaze them with miso. Great idea. 10 minutes, 400 degrees. It was good. But the recipe said that it would change my life. So this is what the rest of my life would be. Little tasks.
16:18 Speaker 03 Not that parents didn't have to cook or buy sponges, but they got something else, too. Meaning. And sure, boredom, irritation, pain. But it wasn't even that meaningful because it allowed them to see what they were made of. That's what I wanted. I wanted to find the limits of my being, touch the edge, connect to the deepest truths on earth.
16:55 Speaker 03 But how did you do that? I didn't even have the imagination for where to look. Then I thought about my little sister, Eliza.
17:10 Speaker 03 My sister had a real talent for exploring everything life had to offer. Even as a toddler, my first word was mama. Her first word was outside. As grade schoolers, I'd be in my room, reading. She'd be in her room, laughing with her friends and singing along to pop songs. I could hear them through the wall. Now, my sister was a responsible adult. She had a job and a mortgage. But the difference between us was in the little things. I didn't drink or do drugs. Eliza loved sitting in the sun with a glass of rosé
17:52 Speaker 03 and then bike at such speed that it felt like she was flying. But what I admired most about my sister was that she said yes. Take this time she sailed to the North Pole. The North Pole, why? It would be cold. It would be long. Did she even know these people? No, she'd said. The organizer was the friend of a friend of a friend of a friend. But she told me I'd never gone sailing. Great, she thought. Let's do that then.
18:30 Speaker 03 The trip started on a rumor. A documentary filmmaker had heard that closer to North Pole, fishermen had spotted orcas that were vegetarian. These killer whales were killing nothing but plants. But there was no proof. So this filmmaker decided to find a ship to sail north and try and capture these orcas on film. It was July when my sister, two of her friends, and four others made their way from Belgium to the north of Norway and then boarded the ship.
19:12 Speaker 03 When she came back from the Arctic, all tanned somehow, she showed me the pictures. In one, they've all disembarked on an island. It was summer, so every blade of grass was flowering. The snowy peaks were silver dotted with cutouts of blue, the blue of the sky reflected in funny-shaped pools of ice-cold water.
19:36 Speaker 03 For hours, without worrying about the dark, because that time of year the sun didn't set, Eliza and the rest of the crew scampered around the glittering glaciers. My sister wasn't wearing the right kind of shoes, so she did most of the descent on her butt. By the end, the seat of her pants was gone. In the pictures, her eyes are sparkling.
20:11 Speaker 03 It took my sister 10 more years before she told me what really happened on that ship.
20:26 Speaker 01 Hi, I just had to tell you that I think your podcast has changed my life. Season one of Sold a Story hit a nerve. It was about teaching kids to read. We have gotten this wrong in New York and all across the nation. Now we're back with a new season. This time, we go beyond reading. I've literally been told by my district that I should not be teaching math. I should be facilitating math. I'm Emily Hanford. Go to your podcast app and follow Sold a Story.
21:02 Speaker 03 Of the seven people aboard the ship, three were experienced sailors. Well, two. The third had done it before. The others took care of things like cooking, and they cooked. The ship was stocked with fruit, vegetables, fish, meat, high-quality Icelandic vodka, and, because these were French speakers, amuse-bouche for their daily aperitif and many bottles of good wine. There was no set dinnertime. The white nights pulled everyone into their own rhythm. Maybe you slept three hours, got up, ate croissants whenever you decided it was breakfast. You could do whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted, day or night.
21:45 Speaker 03 Elisa loved going up on the deck to look out at the pastel ocean, pink and blue and yellow. And the best place to do that was on the prow, where she could sit with her legs over the side, suspended between the water and the sky.
22:07 Speaker 03 The one thing about the deck was that it was cold, viciously cold. Even in her fur-lined, full-body ski suit and layers of long underwear and shirts and woolen sweaters, and on her head a knit cap and a hood she could pull down her face and tie shut so only her eyes were free, she wouldn't last more than 10 minutes.
22:32 Speaker 03 But as they traveled north, the air kept getting hotter and hotter, a heat wave, the worst one since the 70s.
22:42 Speaker 03 By the time they passed the Arctic Circle, they looked like they'd been photoshopped into the wrong scene. Surrounding them were boulders of ice, but they sat lounging in swim shorts and bikinis.
23:01 Speaker 03 Because of the heat, the wind had dropped. Sailing became slow, which meant there was more time to read, to talk, to have multiple aperitifs. They turned on cruise control. One person still had to keep an eye on the sails, another on the ocean floor. They had a device for that, a depth sounder, but they were out of the danger zone. No more rocky cliffs or underwater volcanic ridges. There was maybe one mountain peak left. They would have to be seriously unlucky to sail right over it. And they weren't going unlucky. They were reading their depth sounder.
23:41 Speaker 03 Someone was.
23:45 Speaker 03 It was the afternoon. My sister's glasses were busted, so her best friend, Ditte, the one who invited her on the trip, was putting a little screw in to reattach the leg. Her other friend was reading a doorstop of a novel. Everyone was drinking wine.
24:06 Speaker 03 Suddenly, they were all flung forward.
24:11 Speaker 03 The book tumbled over the side into the water. The ship no longer moved.
24:18 Speaker 03 Nobody spoke. They'd all heard it, the bang, the scrape.
24:26 Speaker 03 I asked my sister if they could radio for help. "Who would we radio?" she said. "The ocean is big. It's empty. There's no one."
24:43 Speaker 03 People started putting on life vests. It seemed like the thing to do, though, really, there was no point. If the ship sank, Eliza knew, they would all die. The question was, how fast? The shock alone of my sister's warm body hitting the cold water could be enough to kill her. But if she'd survived that, she would die more slowly.
25:13 Speaker 03 I didn't press her on the details. I did not want more details. But later, I looked it up. She would have been dead within 45 minutes.
25:29 Speaker 03 I tried to breathe away the images of my sister's body, her happy toes, her strong legs, her face whenever she put on her glasses, seemingly delighted that there was so much to see.
25:45 Speaker 03 I asked her what went through her mind.
25:49 Speaker 03 "Part of me couldn't believe it," she said, "that I could die like that.
25:56 Speaker 03 I did not want to.
25:59 Speaker 03 And I did not want to lose you all, did not want you to lose me."
26:07 Speaker 03 Next, I was flooded with gratitude for the chance to have lived at all.
26:17 Speaker 03 And then I let go. If this was it, so be it.
26:31 Speaker 03 The first to snap back into action was one of the experienced sailors. He ran down the stairs to inspect the damage. No water, not yet.
26:43 Speaker 03 But they were still stuck on this mountain. How would they get off? If they used the motor to push forward or backward, the hull could be punctured. And where would they even go? Someone checked the map. The closest port was hours away. Nobody knew what to do, including the two experienced sailors. But they had to make a decision. So they did. They would reverse direction, move off the mountain the same way they got on.
27:20 Speaker 03 It felt like a bad idea, but there was no other.
27:35 Speaker 03 After several minutes, the ship floated again.
27:41 Speaker 03 They turned off the motor and switched back to sailing.
27:45 Speaker 03 They were in a race against time now, against physics. The size of the damage, the pressure of the water, the buoyancy of the ship, the strength of the wind, the span of the sails. Everyone was on edge.
28:04 Speaker 03 I asked my sister if anyone got blamed for what happened. "There was an understanding that it was someone's fault," she said. "But no one was singled out. There was just this collective sense of shame. How could this have happened? How could we have been so stupid? It broke something in the group."
28:34 Speaker 03 The first person to spot the port shouted at the others. Everyone rushed to the foredeck to watch the land approach. Then they disembarked. Engineers fixed the damage to the ship, an operation that cost an obscene amount of money. Then they got back on board. But not my sister. She was ready to go back to Belgium. Together with her friend, Elisa made her way to the airport and flew home.
29:15 Speaker 03 And then she never really talked about it. When I asked her, "Why not?" She said, "I didn't want to worry you.
29:26 Speaker 03 Also, I didn't know how. What we went through was beyond words. I did not know that I could accept death.
29:41 Speaker 03 But now I do."
29:51 Speaker 03 I'd been sitting at my desk, my phone on speaker, biting my cheek, ripping up a piece of paper into ever smaller shreds. How could she accept death? The end of everything.
30:06 Speaker 03 "But it wasn't like that," my sister said. "It was a new beginning."
30:13 Speaker 03 She told me she'd come home, and she'd walked around her familiar neighborhood in Antwerp.
30:22 Speaker 03 Feeling ecstatic
30:27 Speaker 03 about anything and everything. The evening sun, a pastry.
30:35 Speaker 03 She was wide awake.
30:45 Speaker 03 Suddenly, I understood how she could have accepted the end.
30:53 Speaker 03 Because there were fates worse than death.
30:57 Speaker 03 There was not living.
31:02 Speaker 03 I looked down at my desk, at the little pile I'd made out of the pieces of paper.
31:09 Speaker 03 Was I living?
31:12 Speaker 03 I knew the answer. When a friend asked if I wanted to come to a party, a night of karaoke, a camping trip, often even without thinking, I said, "No."
31:28 Speaker 03 I wanted to be more like my sister.
31:34 Speaker 03 So I asked her, "Can you come up with an exercise for me, a challenge? Something that would help me get better at letting go of control, getting out of my comfort zone and into the world?"
31:51 Speaker 03 Saying yes.
31:57 Speaker 03 She was moved by my question. She wanted that from me. But she said, "I don't have an answer right away. Let me think about it."
32:11 Speaker 03 The next morning, I woke up to a message from her.
32:16 Speaker 03 But it was not the magic answer I wanted.
32:21 Speaker 03 She had decided to question my question.
32:25 Speaker 06 Waar ik jou nog wel zeggen? Je kan er ook eigenlijk maar niet van over, dat jij zegt dat jij zo'n control freak bent.
32:35 Speaker 03 How can you call yourself a control freak?
32:38 Speaker 06 Ook al heb je een aantal van die kantjes of trekjes, wat dan ook eigenschappen, mooi zo.
32:43 Speaker 03 Even if you have some of that going on, all right? Fabulous.
32:46 Speaker 06 Jij bent daar ook zo hard niet om.
32:49 Speaker 03 You're also so not that.
32:52 Speaker 06 Nee, zeg.
32:53 Speaker 03 Who, she said.
32:54 Speaker 06 Alleen naar de VS gegaan.
32:57 Speaker 03 Who went to the US alone?
32:59 Speaker 06 Zonder echt plan.
33:01 Speaker 03 Without a real plan.
33:02 Speaker 06 Wie heeft er?
33:04 Speaker 03 She kept listing times in my life when I had pushed myself out of my comfort zone and into the world.
33:11 Speaker 06 Wie is er naar New York verhaald?
33:13 Speaker 03 Starting over in New York, finding my way back to radio.
33:16 Speaker 06 We kunnen rustig overpellen.
33:18 Speaker 03 Well, we can talk more on the phone, but...
33:20 Speaker 06 Ik denk, want ik kan gewoon.
33:22 Speaker 03 I just find it strange, like, wow, you see yourself so differently than I see you.
33:28 Speaker 06 Uhm, het lijkt wel alsof het eigenlijk overig wat anders is allebei.
33:34 Speaker 03 As if we're talking about two different people.
33:36 Speaker 06 Liever laat mij iets eten, ja?
33:43 Speaker 03 I sat there for a while, not knowing what to think. I mean, you could say that I'd left everything behind and started over on a new continent. Then again, it's not like I arrived in America with $20 in my pocket, not knowing a soul. I had my husband. And each time things got hard, I ran to him for help.
34:10 Speaker 03 But my sister reminded me that wasn't true.
34:16 Speaker 03 The images came rushing back. I knew what I had done. I just rarely thought about it.
34:26 Speaker 03 "Well," my sister had said, "maybe it's about time you did."
34:52 Speaker 03 Creation Myth is written, produced, hosted and sound designed by me, Helena de Groot. My story editor and senior producer is Veronica Simmons. Editorial sound design support by Brendan Baker, who also mixed and mastered the episode. Special thanks to my friend, Jocelyn Takas, and her husband, Taylor, for embracing me as part of their family. And to my sister, Elisa de Groot, for helping me be brave. The team behind Creation Myth further includes Anna Ashite, who is our coordinating producer. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager.
35:34 Speaker 03 Arif Noorani is the director and Leslie Merklinger is the executive director of CBC Podcasts. This project was made possible with the support of VPM Media Corporation. I'll be back next week with the final episode of Creation Myth. But while you're waiting, you can listen to another show on Personally: Sorry About the Kid, about a 14-year-old boy, Paul, who was killed by a speeding police car. His younger brother, Alex, had always worshipped Paul. But after his death, Alex almost immediately started to forget him. So he asked his family and friends to help him piece together what happened and who his brother was.
36:19 Speaker 06 I saw his reflection in the mirror as he was combing his hair. And then he said, "Bye, ma," and left for school.
36:30 Speaker 03 You can find Sorry About the Kid by scrolling back on this feed personally. And I'll see you next week. Thank you for listening. And if you want to binge the whole series ad-free, you can subscribe to our CBC Stories Premium channel on Apple Podcasts. Just click the link in the show description.
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