“Why Did You Kill My Father?” — Ex-Mafia Underboss Reveals the Call | PBD Podcast #865

Sammy “The Bull” Gravano sits down with Patrick Bet-David for a raw reckoning with the life he built and the one he left behind. He challenges John Gotti Jr.’s version of mob history, revisits why he cooperated, addresses his past with James Comey, and explains why faith changed everything for him. ------ 👞 Get the NEW Billionaire Suede Loafer: https://bit.ly/4ym5oRA 👕 SHOP THE ICON COLLECTION: https://bit.ly/3TuUU3x 👞 GET THE FLB1's: https://bit.ly/4mC4uf6 Ⓜ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj 🇰 KALSHI: http://kalshi.com/pbd SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @BetDavidConsulting @vtgenz @ValuetainmentComedy ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  They might be panicking about me and they may say, "Let's take this motherf** out." I would advise them, "Make sure you don't miss."

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Did Gravano tell you how he became a rat? Why were you upset with me sitting with Junior?

• 0:15Speaker 00

  I wouldn't sit with him for no money. What is it gonna be, an argument? You wanna talk, go sit with Patrick Bedavid and talk. Say the f**king truth. Talk. Don't lie to him. Cause he's got a big following, you wanna get your f**king voice out?

• 0:31Speaker 01

  I think the world would wanna see the sit-down.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  John Gotti was acquitted on racketeering charges.

• 0:37Speaker 00

  He sat down with the government. I certainly wasn't gonna go to prison on him using my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers to back the government's case. What the f** is that? If that's not a rat move, I don't know what is. And I don't give a f** what your story is.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  This is how ice-cold Sammy is. How capable he is that he'll take a 16-year-old's life. That's what they would say about you.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  It made it sound like some 16-year-old kid is coming home with his f**ing books. We gunned them down for no f**ing reason. I confess everything I did. So I'm not saying I'm not part of this hit. I'm pinched, he's part of the 19 murders.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Did any family member ever confront you?

• 1:18Speaker 00

  One day my phone rang and he says, "Is this Sammy?" I says, "Yes." And he says, "Why did you kill him?"

• 1:26Speaker 00

  And I said, "I'm gonna tell you the whole story." Don't interrupt. Don't hang up.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  He knew exactly what that meant. Did the mob ever use the word "86"?

• 1:36Speaker 00

  Anybody who said or says Patrick is dumb is f**ing crazy. Because look at what he's doing. He's trying to make me talk.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  I'm asking you a question about 86.

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Listen-

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Have you and Comey ever been in the same room?

• 1:49Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Dinner, playing cards, domino, chess. What was the occasion?

• 1:55Speaker 00

  I can't tell you. I mean, I tell you, this guy's brilliant.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  You've never talked about this with Comey though. The stuff from the 90s, you've never talked about that.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Now you got me and everybody else watching, curious.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  I want everything to come out the truth. I wanna leave my life what I was. Before, in the middle, after. Because I think I owe that to my people who love me and around me, friends. That I care about.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  So I'm gonna ask you an indirect way of helping our guys, our production team that works so hard, get a raise. Do you wanna help them get a raise? This is how you can help us out. Forty-nine percent of you watch our podcast, that our editors work so hard. Producers, cutters, all of them. Our production team, 32 of them that work here, they work very, very hard to deliver a good quality to you. If you enjoy our show and you wanna help this thing get bigger, so we can take our talent that we have in-house to support this production all the time, and maybe even give them a raise, then please subscribe to the channel. That allows us to get more viewership and indirectly it makes bigger opportunities for our current team that we have. Thank you so much.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  So today we have a very famous YouTuber here with us, big YouTuber, Sammy DeBogravano. It's great to have you here.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  My pleasure.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Maybe you were known for something else back in the days, but today, YouTuber, content creator. Can you imagine how your YouTuber-

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Like, sometimes I can't even believe it. I'm publicly talking, I'm in shock.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  I never talked, especially when I got in the mob. You know, you're supposed to be quiet.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  So I never talked. Now I'm talking all over the place.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  You know, a lot of times when people tell me, they say, "How is Sammy a YouTuber?" And I say, "Listen, the world's a safer place with Sammy doing YouTube." You want Sammy as a YouTuber. You want him as a content creator, not anything else. But about a year, year and a half ago, I'm doing a podcast with this one guy. I don't know if you know him or not. His name is John. And after I do this podcast with him, this sit-down with him. Next thing you know, my insurance company calls me, on my life insurance, say, "Listen, we're worried about your health and your life." I said, "Tell me why." He says, "Because there's this guy who reacted to your sit-down with John Junior named Sammy DeBogravano who is furious with you." Why were you upset with me sitting with Junior?

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Me?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Here's the reason why. I'm gonna tell you the reason. I listened to the interview, cause I listen to you a lot. Not all the time, but a lot. Most of the time. You were the first person I actually ever did a live interview with, if you remember.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 4:41Speaker 00

  So I listen to you a lot. We have a good relationship. But John Junior was telling you things that were completely so fake, it was incredible. And I know you have the capability of doing a fact-check. I saw you in battles with, who's the guy who used to show himself to young girls and-

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Weiner, Anthony Weiner.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Anthony Weiner, and you battle it out. I said, "This guy doesn't realize..." Patrick would wipe the floor with him. I says, "The guy, one guy says, 'What if he hits Patrick?'" I says, "Are you crazy? If he hit Patrick, Patrick's gonna wipe the floor with him." I said, "There's not even a match." But anyway, he's telling you that I wasn't in the car with John Gotti when we killed Castellano. Now that's so crazy. It's, why would I admit to that? Number one. Number two, the NYPD did their own investigation. We were in the car together. The feds did it. We were in the car together. They did all kinds of research. Everybody. And they were there.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Now, when I went on trials with the feds, they, you know, they never wanted to get caught in a lie. So anytime I said anything in a trial, they always just jumped all over it and checked it, every which way you can. Cause they don't wanna get caught, no lie. Or blow the case that they're working on. And a hundred percent of the times, I came up exactly what it was. I did the Johnny Keyes hit, long time ago. So it's a great story. They did research on it. They checked it. There's even guys in his crew, when we left before he got killed,

• 6:31Speaker 00

  who cooperated later and told the same exact story I told. Years ago, you know. So I don't lie about these stories. I don't exaggerate. I tell it like it is. So this kid to say I wasn't in the car with his father and his father swore on his dead son. Now I think that's so brutal to say that.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  The same thing when they killed the neighbor. He literally swore on his dead father's son. The father told him this, this. So you're making your father a liar. People know that if that's what he told you, he was lying. And to swear on his dead son, you made him look even worse. You're not helping him by doing that. You know, you could say he did it. And I don't understand why he would say, "I wasn't in that thing."

• 7:31Speaker 01

  So what do you think his outcome is of saying, "You're not in that thing"? Is he trying to say, "You're not as tough, you're not as involved, you were not involved in a big hit"? Like, what's the big deal of him saying that?

• 7:41Speaker 00

  I don't know. In his thing, everything he could say is to make me look like a liar or to put me down like I wasn't what I was supposed to do. I mean, he even got them now saying that, "Well, John was gonna kill him." Meaning me. Now, John was on tape telling guys in the car, there's a tape, you can look it up. Is that if I'm not around, Sammy's the boss.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  So he's saying that to his people, doesn't know he's on tape, and you're saying he was gonna kill me? It's so ridiculous to say that. I mean, you could say a lot of things, I guess. And I can understand a kid hears things about his father, wants to say something positive about his father.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  But to lie over and over and over and over again... Look, they did the Gotti movie with the son. Every single something mashed potatoes or sweet potatoes or whatever, everybody evaluates the show, gave it a zero.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  And because that he got caught in 50 million lies. When a guy comes out of the dark and shoots this guy who was a kidnapper, they made the father do that. The father didn't do that. He didn't do it. There was another guy who did that. So-

• 9:12Speaker 01

  So you and John, you and Junior haven't spoken?

• 9:15Speaker 00

  No.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  When's the last time the two of you guys spoke?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Actual last time you spoke?

• 9:22Speaker 00

  Before I cooperated.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Before you cooperated?

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  So we're talking 40 years, 30 years?

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, 30 something years.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  30 something years?

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, 40 years, man.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  And your interaction with him, was it like an uncle-nephew type of relationship? What was the relationship with you and Junior?

• 9:37Speaker 00

  No, I didn't even have a relationship with him.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  So how many times have you even met him? How many times did you meet Junior?

• 9:42Speaker 00

  I met him a bunch of times that he was around his dad and stuff. I was the guy who made him.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Him and Mikey Scars. John came to me, I was already, I think the underboss when he got made. And he said, Sammy, it's nepotism if I make my own son. I'm gonna make, there's gonna be eight, nine guys. You do the severance money and you make them. And one of them was Mikey Scars, one of them was his son. So I said, okay, I made them. Later on, he wanted to make his son a captain. And that bothered a lot of people, but he's the boss. And I went down with Frankie LaCassio and made him a captain.

• 10:30Speaker 00

  Now, the kid had people around him who, even John Gotti, again, is on tape. And he's saying, my son has got these weird names. Where's he getting these kids? Who are these kids? A-Lite is one of them and a whole bunch of kids. So, and, and John is disturbed at the people that he's running with. And then a hit that took place, it was about Frankie LaCassio. It was about Louis DeBono got hit. You wanna hear that? Louis DeBono, I had a clash with him earlier in life. They separated us. He, his captain, asked for my life. Paul didn't give it to him. They broke us up.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Same family?

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Same family. Before they hit on Castellano. Now, later on, when Castellano was done, Frankie DeChico got killed. Joe Piney, we, me and John, said, Piney, let him take Frankie's spot. Shooting has started. Everybody's shaking. He's an old timer and he could cause them to relax. And we used him. They turn around and he's just doing things. And he tells me one day, Sammy, I'd like you to go partners with Louis DeBono

• 12:00Speaker 00

  because John needs a place where he's gonna show, make a money and stuff like that. So I said, I had a bad beef with him. I don't wanna be partners with him. He said, he will never do it anymore. He's got a history of that, but he won't do it no more. You're in big action now. Number one, John is the boss here and the two of you is will be partners with him. He'll never do anything like that.

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• 13:38Speaker 01

  Is Louis a made man? Is he a cop or what's his rank?

• 13:41Speaker 00

  He's a made guy.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  So nothing big yet? He's just a made guy?

• 13:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's a made guy. Louis.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  And is he an owner? Is he bringing money in? Is he somebody that's a performer?

• 13:50Speaker 00

  No, not really. I mean, he brings some things in. That's him. And anyway, he convinces me to go partners with him. I go partners with him and he does the same thing. And we're doing a job with him. See, he was a union contractor. He could bid a job, get the job as a union contractor. Then he'd give it to me. I was non-union. The union won't bother me. I could get away with it. So instead of him paying like $30 an hour for the union guys, I'm now paying $18 an hour for non-union. I give him like 22.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  So instead of paying 30, he's paying 22.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Seven, eight.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Seven, eight dollars an hour with the workers. One, two, I'm doing it. My workers are earning and I'm stopping the union from bothering you. So everything is gonna work. So it's working and one day I'm in my office with my brother-in-law Eddie, Garofola, and we're talking and we're losing money. And I don't get it. So I sit down with this guy Joey Madonia, who's our partner in this drywall business I had with him and my brother-in-law. And we're trying to figure out, how are we losing money? Why? So, we're looking through the supplies and everything.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  And I look at a sheet of drywall, four by 10. How much is that? Wow, that seems like a big number. And I said to my brother-in-law, call this lumberyard up. Tell them that you're a sucker right off the street. You own a house. You wanna buy eight, 10 sheets of sheet rock. You're not gonna get no discounts. You're not gonna get none. How much is a sheet for you? I said, nobody. He gets the number. It's seven and change. I'm paying nine, 10 and change. And I'm buying thousands of sheets of drywall.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  I says, there it is. We're being robbed right there. So I says, Eddie, go to the place, the lumberyard, and bring the guy in here. I wanna talk to him. He comes in.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  DeBono?

• 16:15Speaker 00

  No, the lumberyard guy. I bring him in and I sit down. And I said, listen, I wanna ask you some questions. I want you to tell me the truth. I'm not gonna hurt you. But I want the truth. And I'm gonna warn you this. I know a lot of the answers. So he says, all right, all right. And he's nervous.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  He knows who you are?

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Okay. And is he a DeBono guy?

• 16:42Speaker 00

  No, he's just a lumberyard. No, owns the lumberyard.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  He owns the lumberyard?

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  What's his relationship with DeBono?

• 16:49Speaker 00

  I'm gonna tell you.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  So anyway, we start talking and I said, I had my brother-in-law call your lumberyard and he got a price of seven and change aboard. Like a sucker. He's gonna buy five, six sheets of. He said, yeah, that's the price. I'm buying thousands of sheets and I'm getting wholesale prices. And I'm paying $2, $3 a sheet more. How is that possible? He says, Sammy, you said to do that. I said to do that?

• 17:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're partners with DeBono, right? Yeah. He said, DeBono owes me six or 700,000 in previous work. And tells this guy, overcharge on every sheet, whatever you make on that deducted from what I owe.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Got it. So he used your relationship to pay off his 600,000 dollars of debt?

• 17:57Speaker 00

  Yes. So every time I'm working with him.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  And this is the DeBono guy is the same guy that worked on the World Trade Center? His construction company apparently worked on the World Trade Center and he was found killed in the garage or something like that?

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Yes. So, I tell John, I said, Joe Piney and John, he's robbing us. He's robbing us. So John don't wanna hear it. He says, well, I don't think so. Well, here it is in black and white. He says, I'm gonna look into it. So he looks into it and the guy's robbing us. He tells his son, John Junior, kill him. You have the contract. You're a captain now. Bobby Boriello and a few guys that John put with him. He's got a team that can do this.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  Kill him. The kid goes out. He's looking for him. Can't find him nowhere. He's out of the country now. John tells me and Frankie LaCassio. He's out of the country. He's on tape when we got arrested. The only reason I killed Louis DeBono is that what Sammy said.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Who says that? Junior?

• 19:24Speaker 00

  No, John Senior.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Senior.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  He's on tape saying that. So, and with all these other people. And I'll give you that too. So anyway, we can't get him. I go and I go to Joey Madonia. I had given him the company, walked away from the company because I got a bigger position. I said, you let me in when I was down. I'm up. I can't really work with you that much anymore. So the company is yours. If I could recommend a job to you, just make sure I get an envelope. But the company is yours.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  So now I see Joey Madonia again and he tells me, Sammy, if you can get me some drywall work off of Louis DeBono, he's got a couple of billion dollars worth of work that he's gonna get.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Really billion?

• 20:23Speaker 00

  Billion.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And this is what, you're 80 what? 80?

• 20:26Speaker 00

  In the 80s, when he dies. So.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  So he's a big timer. He's like, he's doing big jobs.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was doing $5 million jobs.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  The World Trade Center, he did the World Trade Center? He was one of the guys involved in building the World Trade Center?

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  So the mafia was involved in building the drywall of the World Trade Center?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, without a doubt. If it went to Louis DeBono, that was me too and we were doing it. So anyway, I said, he's out of the country. He doesn't know what's going on, that we're gonna kill him. So I said, he's out of the country, Joey. If he comes back, when he comes back, I'll talk to him. If I can get a job, I'll bring it over to you. He tells me, he says, no, Sammy, he's not out of the country.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  What are you talking about? He says he's in the World Trade Center. In his office every day. I said, "You sure?" He said, "Sammy, he parks right in the World Trade Center." With his car on the back on the plate. It says "DeBono." That's where he parks every day. Which building? He tells me the building. I'm dumbfounded, Pat. Okay. As soon as I talked to him, if I could get some work, I'll send it. Of course, he's not in the life. He's a legitimate kid. I don't tell him nothing. He's not a kid. He's a man, but... So, anyway, I leave. And I'm with Big Louis Valerio.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  And we're driving down New York to go to John's Club. We stop at a place, a restaurant, near the World Trade Center. And I have to get these guys. One of the guys working for me. Give him an envelope to bring to another family to give them the envelope from us. So, he says, "Okay." He says, "Sammy, you know, see, the World Trade Center was under construction." And he says, "You see this dirt parking lot? You know, I have that. It's expensive to park in there. I park cars here. I'm making a bundle." "Wow, it sounds good."

• 22:45Speaker 00

  He said, "DeBono's a friend of ours, right?" Meaning a made guy. I said, "Yeah, yeah, of course." You know, "He's parking in the World Trade Center. And I can make him park here. I'll charge him almost nothing." I said, "What, where does he park?" And he tells me the same place.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Basement, basement, garage.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  In the garage?

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  And I says, "Okay, great. Of what building?" So, I said, "Okay, great. Appreciate it. I'll get back to you." Of course, he doesn't know, so I don't tell him either. I get in the car, and we go down New York. Frankie Lucassio is there. He knows what's going on a little bit.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  He's with the family as well?

• 23:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's, yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Is he, is he a heavyweight?

• 23:39Speaker 00

  The Kunzier.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  So, I say, "And he knows what's going on. But he don't know what I just found out." So, I go down, and I take a walk with Frankie. I said, "Listen to this. John Junior's got the contract. He's swearing to us that he's out of country. Fracking him out of the country. He's fucking right in the World Trade Center. In his own office every day. And he's parking in the World Trade, building, whatever, one, two, whatever it was. And that, this is where, and his car has the Bono on the back." Frankie Lucassio is blown away. "Oh, my God."

• 24:18Speaker 01

  His car has the Bono on the license plate?

• 24:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, the license plate says "DeBono."

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Isn't that a bad move for a mobster to put your name on a license?

• 24:25Speaker 00

  Well, he's a half a legitimate guy, half a mobster. Yeah, it's not a good move. But, anyway, that's what he's got.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Super wealthy guy. This guy's got money.

• 24:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, ton of money. And so Frankie tells me, says, "Sammy, what are you gonna do? When John gets here, I'm gonna tell him. This kid don't even know what the fuck he's talking about. He's in fucking Europe. He's tracking him in Europe? He's fucking right here, a couple of miles away from where we are right now, standing." Sure enough, that's all Frankie knows. Lucassio.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  At this point, does Frankie trust you more? Does he, is he John's guy or is he your guy?

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Well, it's, he, it's, he's both of our guy.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  But is he more 70-30 John?

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  But we're talking about a situation.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  It's nothing to do with our relationship. So, John comes, and I tell him, just what I told you.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Senior.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Senior. I said, "He's there." He looks at me like, "I can't be. My son is tracking him. Well, do you want me to take care of this? I know where he's parking and where he is. You want me to take care of it? He'll be dead tomorrow." "No. No, I'll take care of this." "Okay." He takes care of it, that he gives his son a hollerin', like, "What the fuck? You were bringing in information. Here's where he is. I know where he is. He's in the World Trade Center, this parking, da-da-da-da-da. That's where it is.

• 26:04Speaker 00

  Get Bobby Boriello, and I forget the other guy's name, right now. Get them to kill this guy."

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Charles something?

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Charlie Canisi.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Get them to kill the guy right away. Now, we look like jerks. And he, to me, and to Frankie Lucassio. Now, maybe a week went by. They get another guy, an Irish kid. And they go in the World Trade Center, in the spot, in the place, and they kill him. Exactly in that parking spot. Exactly in that building. Exactly what I was telling them. And lo and behold, the Irish kid, I can't think of his name, but you could look him up. He cooperates after.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  And tells the story of it. So...

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Who is he with? If he's Irish, who's he?

• 27:08Speaker 00

  He was probably with either, either, you know, Charlie Kinnick or the other guy.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  But he's not, of course, as an Irish, you're not tied to the mob. You're, you're, you may be a street guy, but you're not tied to...

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  You're not part of the family.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  You could be tied to the mob, but you're not a made guy.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  And maybe he's making his bones. He's doing a hit, but whatever, he winds up flipping.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  How quickly does he flip?

• 27:31Speaker 00

  I don't remember, but it took a while, but it was, he's the guy who put it on record, on who did what.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  And he knows Junior's involved. He knows where the orders came from. He knows all of it.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  He knows the whole thing. Yeah. And he knows that these guys, Bobby Boriello and Gene and this kid are gonna take care of it. And I don't know who shoots what and how who does what. I don't know. I never ask. The next time I hear about this, it's on tape where he's complaining about me. And Frankie Lucassio. He's charged with the murder. Now Frankie Lucassio did nothing. He knew what was going on. Wasn't part of the murder in any way, shape, or form. I cooperated, I leave.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  I tell the government the story. Frankie Lucassio is paged. And they're gonna go on trial. I cooperate, I left. I don't wanna go through that whole story again. But I...

• 28:40Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked $350,000 to Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 29:09Speaker 04

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• 29:25Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up. Required compatibility and availability varies. 18 plus.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Left.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  What does "left" mean?

• 29:54Speaker 00

  I left the mob. I cooperated.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  I'm gone.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  So, this is all happening at the same time?

• 29:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, after.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  In stages.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  What's the timeline? What's the timeline?

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Well, I cooperated, what, in 81?

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Something like that.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  When did this happen? You cooperated 81, but when did the, the Bono? When did, when did that happen? When he got killed?

• 30:17Speaker 00

  A little bit before that, 89.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Check to see when he got killed. When did the Bono get killed? What's the exact, I'm trying to see the timeline of how quickly those things go together. So, 1990?

• 30:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  And you cooperated, what, you're 89?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  In, in 91. One.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Okay, got it. So, a little less than a year later.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  I'm really trying to see where you're going.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, here's where I'm going, is that

• 30:48Speaker 00

  we lost our lawyers in the case. And we were gonna replace them.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Effley Bailey was gonna represent John. We had a meeting, a co-meeting, we were all in the meeting. And Effley Bailey says, John, you're all over this tape. You killed this guy, you killed that guy, you did this, that, and the other thing.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  You, you destroyed Sammy on this tape.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  You can't beat this case.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  I could maybe try to make a plea agreement. He says, no, I have an idea. And Effley Bailey tells him, what's your idea? I'm gonna throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Effley Bailey leaves. Never comes back.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Years later,

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Jerry Capice is talking to me, you know who Jerry Capice is? He's talking to me and he says, Sammy, I was out of prison a long time. He says, are you sitting down?

• 31:56Speaker 00

  I said, what happened? He said, Effley Bailey came in and did an interview with me. And I asked him, why do you represent John? Why did you leave and never go back?

• 32:10Speaker 00

  He said, I wanted nothing to do with setting up Sammy. Or Frankie LaCassio.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Effley Bailey said this?

• 32:17Speaker 00

  Effley Bailey.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  You know who's the first person I ever interviewed on Valuetainment? Ever? Effley Bailey.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  And he was great. And that's what he said. And you could check that with Jerry Capice.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Cause he wrote an article about it.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  And he tells me that. And I said, wow. This, this is unbelievable, how this whole thing is coming together. So, th- this is nothing, that, no, he can't, he couldn't even do a fucking hit, it was right under his nose. And he's lying about, um, that the guy's fucking, uh...

• 32:49Speaker 01

  You were not in the car, Castellano, all of that.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  All, all these things, he's so fucking full of shit. That's why I wouldn't sit with him. For no money. What is it gonna be, an argument? He says he wouldn't sit with me, I wouldn't sit with him.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  But that would, that would, that would tie the whole thing up, if the two of you guys sat down.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  And I, you know, I, I wonder, when I sit there and think about it, who is less likely to do it? Obviously, I've asked Johnny, I've, I've, I've asked Junior. Even then, when we went back and forth.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  But, um, you know, I've talked to the family and you know, I've spent time with them and, you know, we had the conversation. I think the world would wanna see this sit down. Now, whether that happens or not, who knows? That's a different conversation.

• 33:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, now...

• 33:35Speaker 01

  You wouldn't do it, though?

• 33:36Speaker 00

  No, I wouldn't do it. Now, he said, I wouldn't do it if my mind gets it right. He says, I wouldn't sit with him, meaning me, if you gave me a million dollars, right?

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  Well, I wouldn't do it if you gave me seven hundred and fifty thousand. But if you gave me a million,

• 33:59Speaker 00

  I might do it.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  That is so funny.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  I would do it. So, I don't know if I would do that. I mean, he lies like, well, what's the sense of him lying?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  But you know, it was kinda like when you and Michael sat down together. One of the most special conversations was when Mario and I are sitting there and you and Michael are going back and forth.

• 34:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  You know which one I'm talking about?

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  We weren't even face to face. We were on a Zoom or something like that, cause Mafia States was coming out. But you know what it was? It was like, boom, gone, moved on, everybody went to the next story and people get to pick and choose. Very few people are gonna be like, I'm, you know, if I'm a Sammy guy, I'm a Sammy guy. If I'm a Junior guy, I'm a State Junior guy. It's not gonna change much. Maybe the five, ten percent are gonna be in the middle to say, I side with Sammy, I side with Junior. But I think for the sake of the history books, it would be a good conversation to see the two of you guys sit down together. And if it does ever happen, I know one good guy who would do one hell of a job. Not two of them, I know one guy only. And you know that guy.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I...

• 34:56Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Like, there's only one guy that could do that.

• 34:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I, I think I could do that with him. You know, he even said in one of his things that he, he quit the life, he, he didn't wanna be part of the life. He sat down with the government. There's people now talking about him. He cooperated.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  You sit with the government and you proffer. You know what that is. Come on, you sit down with the government, you proffer, you talk about, you're a made guy. You're this, you're that, you're that. Maybe he never took the stand. Probably. But you profit. You sat and you talked with you, you, you know, you could say, Joe Blow is a drug dealer. That's all.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  You're not gonna take the stand, you're not gonna do anything.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  Right? Now, all of a sudden, the government's watching Joe Blow.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Sooner or later, a year goes by, Joe Blow gets pinched. He doesn't even know how. Why?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  Cause he don't know what somebody said and it's never been released. And that's just what he did. So, he's an informant, just like anybody else is an informant. He could say whatever he wants to say. You know, a lot of guys don't like that. I hate that fucking label. But I know I'm stuck with it because of what I did. Now, some people say, I don't blame you, I would do the same thing. But it's still, no matter what, that's the label that you get stuck with. And I'm stuck with it. I'm not proud of it. I don't like it. I never liked it. But I certainly wasn't gonna go to prison on him

• 36:35Speaker 00

  using my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers to back the government's case. The government puts out a case to put me away. We fight it. We do whatever we gotta do.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  He's backing it?

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Now, I'm not gonna say that John Gotti's a rat. I'm not gonna say that. But what the fuck is that? If that's not a rat move, I don't know what is.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  You're gonna actually have my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers turn around and say, you heard the government's tapes. And what the government's saying.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Poor John Gotti. It's not him. You hear, you hear him complaining about Sammy. Sammy's the guy who did all these things. Now, I'm part of them. No question about it. I cooperated, I confessed to whatever I did in those things. But to say, I mean, some of the things he said were just so outlandish. He even talked about when they, his father, not his father, but gave orders to kill the guy who killed his son in a car accident. And I heard John Junior say, well, that's my dad. If you hurt our family, it's what he's gonna do.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  He didn't say he didn't do it. He admitted he did it. And I don't give a fuck what your story is. This is an innocent guy who was in a car accident. He didn't mean to kill the kid. Now, I'm sure I would be sick if that happened to my son. But my son did get hit by a car. Same as your son. He didn't die. The neighbor was petrified. I told Louis Sisenti, bring that guy over to me. The guy came to me, I said, what did, I hear you worried about me. About what? It was a car accident. Did you hit my son on purpose? No. Then why are you worried?

• 38:37Speaker 00

  When John told me about the guy, the accident, I had told him, John, I loved him like a brother. Don't do this, bro. He's a legitimate guy. It was a car accident. People love you. If you kill this guy, people are gonna hate you.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  You can't kill an innocent guy in a car accident. He came to your fucking house to apologize. You can't kill this guy. But he did it anyway. He went on vacation with his wife. And I think you know that story. It's no news to you. And he twisted it that, well, my father, that's, that's, that's him.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  Then you called your father a monster. Not me, you did.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  You know what they would say if they were sitting here? They would ask you a question you're not gonna like.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, go.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Either Junior or, or the sister or any one of them. Then they, cause when, when I had you on the first time, they, they attacked, or she attacked me non-stop and said, why don't you ask him about the sixteen-year-old innocent boy that Alan, you know, Kaiser, you know? Why don't you ask him about that? Sammy wants to act like, what do we do? How about the guy? He, he shouldn't have taken that person out. He was a kid. Right? Or the brother-in-law. That's an ice-cold killer. That's what, that's what the sister would say if they were sitting here.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  I get it. But first of all, I did answer that. I did not shoot him. I'm on the hit and I'm responsible for the hit. But I, all I said is that when we went, we were looking for the other guy. I forgot his name.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  And we were hunting him.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  He came out of the house with this kid. They make him, he was coming home with schoolbooks under his arm. That's all bullshit. He came out with this kid. The kid, the sixteen-year-old kid, wasn't a target. He was nothing.

• 40:33Speaker 00

  I, I had a cast, my entire foot, all the way up to my thigh. My leg was broken in three places.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Now, when we seen the kid come back out, the guy we were gonna shoot, Louis Milano had a shotgun on his lap, I had a pistol laying in the backseat.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  And Tato's nephew was driving.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  I said, Louis, the door is opening.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  Just open your window and tell him we're lost. Where is Avenue P? We were on King's Highway. Where's Avenue P?

• 41:16Speaker 00

  The plan was when he walks over to give you advice on how to get to Avenue P, I will come up and I will shoot him right in his fucking face.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  And I will kill him. This is the guy who jumped me with a bunch of bikers in my club, broke my leg. I was looking to kill him.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  The guy that did that is not the 16-year-old?

• 41:37Speaker 00

  Exactly. Now, when he's walking to the car,

• 41:43Speaker 00

  and Louis is asking him, I'm laying down, and this kid's on the side.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  He catches the vibe. He must have known the fight prior night, that they jumped and made guy, they hurt him. So he's Larry. When Louis asks him that question, he turns and starts to run. Louis opens the door real quick and throws a shot with the shotgun. There's not double O buck or slugs, it's BBs. And I could get to that after. And it hits him in the back. We see him, he goes forward, but he don't stop running.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  Tato's nephew, Danny, screams to Louis. The kid, instead of going back in the house, freezing or running the other way, he's running at Louis.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  16-year-old?

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Yes. And Danny yells, Louis, you're back. I hear Louis, you're back. I come up, I'm trying to get my gun. If I could shoot him, I will. But I can't get to him. The angle I'm in, laying on there with my leg all fucked up, I couldn't get the angle to shoot him. But Louis turned, blasted him once in the chest, he fell to the ground, and blasted him another one, I think in the head, forehead. And he's dead. And we take off. So I'm not saying I'm not part of this head, never said that. I'm in it. I'm part of it. All I said is that's the way it happened.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  And then they start saying, well, he's blaming Louis to put the weight on Louis. What fucking weight? I'm pinched on it, I didn't push no weight. I'm pinched, he's part of the 19 murders. I didn't say, hey, wait a minute, I didn't do it, so I'm not, he's on my list.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  I didn't say I didn't do it. All I says is I didn't shoot him personally, like they made it sound. They made it sound like some 16-year-old kid is coming home with his fucking books, and we gunned him down, me, for no fucking reason.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Do they make the claim that you shot him?

• 44:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  So, so Junior makes the claim that you were not in the car when you guys took out Castellano, but when it comes down to this case, you're the one that shot Alan Kaiser?

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Yes, which is bullshit again. Now, all I say is that

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Sammy, who was there?

• 44:15Speaker 00

  There's got to be an autopsy. Cops got it, he was there. Cops could say, okay, he was shot. Shot not with a pistol, which was the saying, which Sammy had. He was shot with a shotgun. So that's all I'm saying. I didn't dump the weight on Louis, Melito. Why would I?

• 44:36Speaker 00

  So, and, and that's after Louis was dead. I believe the conversations that they're talking about after Louis was dead. So why would I dump it on him? For what?

• 44:47Speaker 01

  What ended up being the consequences of Alan Kaiser? What ended up happening?

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Not that he's part of my 19.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Got it. Nobody did time because of that? That, that wasn't something that?

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Nobody did time about it. I didn't rat on nobody, including Tato's nephew, Danny. It's the original now you're hearing is I'm saying Danny, because Tato was gonna propose this kid. And I went to Tato and I said, do you know that this kid took a test to be a cop? Tato?

• 45:18Speaker 00

  He said, no. Who told you that? Check with your family.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  He checked with his family and he never made him. The kid could be dead by now, I don't even know. I never heard of him or more. Because I knew that Tato was gonna make him, because he was on a hit with us.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  And I never gave him up.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  And, uh, so that's the story. So I'm not saying I wasn't on the hit. I'm not saying I wouldn't have shot him.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  No, they would say to you, they would, their argument would be when they would call me, it would be, this is how ice cold Sammy is. How capable he is that he'll take a 16-year-old's life. That's what they would say about you. So when you say, you know?

• 46:04Speaker 00

  I get it, yeah, I, I get it, but it's not true. So they could say whatever they wanna say.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  What part of that would you disagree with? Like, at that point, were you an ice cold killer that you would, you would have taken anybody if the orders came in?

• 46:17Speaker 00

  If the orders came in, without a doubt. No orders came in for me to kill this kid.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  So you, so you wouldn't dispute the fact that you were an ice cold killer at that time?

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Oh, no, no. That's why I, I confess to everything I did. Whether it was a fight, a murder, what part I took. I didn't shoot with the fucking Castellano people either. I was more of a planner than anything else.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Always?

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Always. It started years ago before I even got made. Tato called me in one day and he says, Sam, I wanna know something. I understand that every time you go in a jewelry store or store that, you're the first guy in, you pull out the gun, everybody get on the fucking ground. Why are you the fucking first guy who does that? I says, because my Gomara Ali boy, he's tough as nails and he's got my back. I'm comfortable with that. He said, you're right. Your Gomara is tough as nails. He was in another family, in the Genovese. He said, but he's reactive.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  If he sees a cop who don't even know what the fuck is going on, he was walking by, he'll shoot the cop. Won't even hesitate. Am I right? I said, yeah, probably. He said, you, what the fuck would you do?

• 47:48Speaker 00

  I said, I would analyze it. Maybe the cop don't know what's going on. If he's walking nonchalant, if he knew what was going on, he'd have his gun out and I would shoot him. But if it's just walking nonchalant, it happens.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  I wouldn't, I wouldn't have to shoot him. I, everybody keep fucking quiet. Whatever. So you would think your way out?

• 48:14Speaker 00

  Yes. That's the difference between you and Ali. Let Ali go in, pull the gun, tell everybody to get on the floor and you take his back. You're not reactionary. You'll think. If there's a problem, you will think your way out before you fucking kill people. I know if there's a problem, you'll shoot the guy.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Sammy, have, have, have any of these, you know, like you said earlier, you got a random phone call. Oh, we haven't even talked about that. We'll get into that with the whole FBI stuff and James Comey. We'll get into that here in a minute. But have you ever gotten a random phone call of one of these families that later on you testified, you addressed that I did take these guys out? Did any family member ever confront you? Did anybody ever call you?

• 48:56Speaker 06

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• 49:31Speaker 06

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• 49:33Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 50:03Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Who called you?

• 50:35Speaker 00

  There's a Spanish guy who we killed. And I can't think of his name, but he's on my list. If you look at my list, he's a Spanish guy. Puerto Rican.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  De Bernando.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Murmando.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Santiago, John Santiago?

• 50:57Speaker 00

  John Santiago. One day, my phone rang and he says, is this Sammy? I says, yes. And he says, I'm Johnny Santiago's son.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Son?

• 51:11Speaker 00

  Son. He says, could I talk to you?

• 51:16Speaker 00

  I said, yes. What do you want to know? He said, all I want to know, Sammy, I understand the life a little bit. My father was around it. Why did he die? Why did he get killed? Why did you kill him?

• 51:32Speaker 00

  I said, I'm going to tell you the whole story. Don't interrupt, don't hang up.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Is he being a jerk? Is he being fair? Is he respectful?

• 51:40Speaker 00

  He was very respectful and fair.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  How old was he when he called you? Twenties, thirties?

• 51:45Speaker 00

  Twenties, probably.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Okay, got it.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  I don't know. So I said, your father was fucking Stimey's brother's wife. And he knew us and everything. Stimey came to me and told me, Sammy, I want to kill this kid Santiago.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  He was one of my top guys. I said, why? He says he was fucking my brother's wife.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  I said, you know, I have to go get permission from Tato and then Paul.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  I need to ask you questions. He said, what?

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Did he rape?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  The wife, the brother's wife, yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Did he rape her?

• 52:43Speaker 00

  No.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Did he force her?

• 52:52Speaker 01

  He's asking you this question.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  I'm asking him, Stimey. I'm telling him what I'm asking, Stimey.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  If John Santiago forced her or raped her?

• 53:01Speaker 00

  Yes, I'm asking Stimey.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  And he says, no, I don't think so.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Do we kill your sister-in-law too?

• 53:14Speaker 00

  He says, Sammy, that's my sister-in-law.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  She wasn't raped. She wasn't forced. She's a participant in this. We're going to just kill him?

• 53:28Speaker 00

  And she's okay? I want to ask you another question. Is this going to make their marriage better? Because we kill him?

• 53:42Speaker 00

  He says, Sammy, how am I supposed to know? I have to know. I have to know.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  I'm your boss. I have to bring it to Tato. I have to bring it to Paul. I got to ask them, I'm going to kill a fucking guy who got, who fucked somebody who's not even in our family. I need those answers.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  He couldn't answer. I said, Stimey, listen to me. I know you're hot with this. He disrespected you.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  And I get it. But you're not asking me, you would like to break his face. You'd like to give him a fucking beating with your hands. You're asking me to kill somebody.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  I said, here's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to say no. Maybe down the road. Let's sit with this a while. I'm not going to go to ask permission. And we'll put it on the side until we really live with this for a while and we see what happens.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  I was dead against it. This is what I'm telling this son.

• 54:55Speaker 00

  One night, I get a call. Couple of weeks later. Sammy, come down right away. Now, I don't question on my phone what happened. When I hear that, my guy saying, come right away. I know there's something really bad that happened and I jumped in my car and I drove down. What happened? Huck told me. And I said, what happened? Stimey got in the car with the Santiago guy. And he was a little drunk and he killed him. Oh, my God.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  He killed him? Yeah. Is the car still around? We put it somewhere. Did you just clean it up? Did you got the gun that he used? His clothes?

• 55:48Speaker 00

  Get this fucking car and clean it up. Clean it, burn it, get rid of it. We already got the gun. Throw it in the fucking ocean. I never want to see it or hear about it again. Get his fucking clothes that he wore when he was in the fucking car. And throw those clothes away too.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  I cleaned it up.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  That's all I did.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Knowing that a hit took place. Knowing that I cleaned it up, made me part of it.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  I'm telling the son. That's the reason why what happened. And he asked me, Stimey broke the rules. And under your own rules, questions you asked were great. Did you kill him? No, of course not.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  He was proposed to become maid.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Stimey?

• 56:50Speaker 00

  Stimey.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  I put him on the side for a while. Showing him that I was super mad. I can't, I'm not God. I can't bring back a body. I can't bring back. But I made him know I was not happy with this fucking thing. But I had no control over it. I did, and when I did, I told him, leave it on the side. And we'll talk about it. Figuring that over time, he'd say, all right, I mean, she cheated. He, she went with her, she's good looking, whatever.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  He would forget it or say, okay. Maybe I'll just go break his face. And I would have told him, go, go. You want one or two guys to go with you? You want me to go with you? What the fuck you want? And we give him a good beating. He deserves a beating for what he did. Of course, that's disrespect. But he didn't deserve to die.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  The son on the phone told me, Sammy, I just don't know how to thank you. I know why my father died. And he was a ladies' man and did shit a couple of times. People would tell him, stop some of the things you're doing. I want to thank you. I never heard from him again. Never bothered me. I never bothered him. That was it. He heard the story, understood the story, knew I was telling the truth and I told him. I'm charged with it.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  I could tell you anything. I could tell you I killed him. It doesn't change my charge. There's no reason for me to lie to you. None. You asked me like a gentleman, why your father was killed? And I told you like a gentleman, truthfully, because I think you deserved that answer. I told him like that.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a wild story. Anytime like when you're telling some of these stories, other guys who were made man or were in the life? Maybe they've left or it's been a couple of decades. Did they ever call you and say, Sammy, why are you lying? That's not really what happened. You know, or question some of this stuff?

• 58:54Speaker 00

  They'll say it on their channels and their shit.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Not channels. I'm talking to somebody that is not a YouTuber, doesn't want to create content. But somebody that's a real guy that is not even wanting to sit down with anybody, just calling and say, Sammy, why'd you tell that story? Or even, why are you telling these stories publicly? Has anybody from the family called you and say, Sammy, stop talking?

• 59:14Speaker 00

  Not one.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Not one?

• 59:15Speaker 00

  No.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Why do you think?

• 59:17Speaker 00

  Because they're true.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  You know, we talked about when I, when I was going to get sentenced in a case.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Michael Le Bat's sister brought a whole letter. I was going for sentencing. How of a vicious, nasty, cold killer, serial killer, whatever the fuck she put in this letter. To give me the maximum I could give. The judge picked up the letter and read it. I was in court.

• 59:50Speaker 00

  And he says to her, I don't want to mention her last name. He mentioned to her, I read your letter. He called her up front. I read your letter. And it seems like you're very angry at him.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  You worked for him.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  It doesn't bother you that your brother was out killing with him? Never bothered you? It only bothers you now that your brother got killed?

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  And he threw the paper down on the desk.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  And obviously, he didn't pay a no mind. You know, so it's a lot with these cases and these things. A lot of them run around with things. I always told my family, if I get killed tomorrow.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Don't blame the guys who killed me. They're under orders.

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  They might like me and they might love me. If they don't do it, they're going to get killed. And they know that. And they're under orders and they're in the life. Don't get mad at them. It's the guy who wanted it.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  So that is the life. That's the oath you take when you come into life. You live by the gun, you die by the gun.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  Do the right thing. When you're in the fucking life, you survive the life. Maybe.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  But you're in this life. You're not, this isn't no candy ass fucking joint. Everybody worries about every little shit. There's guys who get killed in here for nothing sometimes. You know that, Patrick. There's guys left and right. And you don't have the fucking right, John Junior, to come up, put me down and complain about me. When you're, if I killed 19 people or involved in 19 murders? How many fucking murders is your father involved in? 50?

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  When you open your fucking mouth, open it.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  And tell the truth. How many were you in? You killed some fucking innocent kid in a bar fight.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  I remember your father and all of them mad. We paid the fucking cops twenty-five thousand to cover you the fuck up.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  Talk. You want to talk, go say it with Patrick Bedavid and talk. Say the fucking truth, talk.

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  Don't lie to him. Because he's got a big following, you want to get your fucking voice out?

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  If you're going to talk with him, Patrick's the best guy. I did it, I talked to him a couple of times, I'm talking to him now. But tell him the truth, go tell him the truth. Because if he don't smell the fucking truth, he's going to be on it. We're talking, I don't know how long, you check, double check me three times, four times already. And that's the way I, I, it's supposed to be. That's why I was mad. That's what you should do with John Junior. Oh, you're making some heavy accusations. And we're just saying. That Sammy wasn't involved, the whole fucking world knew he was involved. The Brooklyn Police, New York Police, FBI, people who cooperated. There's so much, and then why would he just cooperate, say he did it?

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Why would he confess to a fucking massive murder, double murder? If he didn't do it?

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  It's like me saying, I killed John Kennedy, why would I do this? I didn't do it. To make myself famous, I'm not completely out of my mind.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  And, um, so. That's it, and, and murders bothered me. I, I never enjoyed a murder. Never. There's murders that I did that bothered the shit out of me, I think you know that. I'm doing a movie about the Iceman. Uh, not the Iceman, the.

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  The Johnny Keys hit. And that thing just literally broke my heart. There's another one with Louis Molito. Just wiped me out. I was a kid, growing up.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  Fishing, hunting, we did everything together. Louis is almost on every single murder I'm on.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  Why would I lie about that one?

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  He's almost on every one.

• 1:04:21Speaker 00

  He was a tough bastard, everybody knew that. People who were legit, people who knew him down, now, uh. From, who were not in the streets. I got friends who talk about him. I tell them, I say, I don't even want to talk about it, you know? But because it just breaks my heart, what he did, he did stupid shit and got himself killed.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  It's a, you know, you and I have spent a lot of time together, a lot. You know, outside of the interviews and stuff and the stuff on camera, we've had dinner, we've had conversations many times over the years. And one of the stories I want to get into, we were talking about it briefly, this came up, I think, a week ago with you and James Comey. Uh, you know, DOJ sought input on Comey case from notorious Samuel Gravano, defense says. If you can go a little bit lower, you know, less than a month ago, the FBI directed James Comey's indictment earlier this year. Prosecutors sought the assistant of notorious gangster Samuel Gravano to build their case against him. His defense lawyers alleged in a court filing on Tuesday, prosecutor.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  An FBI agent allegedly interviewed Gravano to understand if Comey's experience prosecuting the Gambino family in the nineteen nineties would have led him to believe that the term. Eighty-six was a reference to murder or violence. A federal grand jury indicted Comey on two charges in April. For posting the picture on his Instagram account of seashells spelling eighty-six forty-seven. Gravano confessed. To his involvement of nineteen murders, including those of his best friends and his brother-in-law. Before cooperating with prosecutors, told the prosecutor and FBI agent that he did not inter. Interpret Comey's eighty-six forty-seven seashells post to be personal threat to President Trump, according to his defense lawyers. Is this story true? Did they call you, did they reach out to you?

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Well, I, I do have a lawyer and, uh.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  Um, I'm not going to answer a lot of questions with this, but like you said, we do have a relationship, yes. Did they call me? Yes. I'm, I'm not going to talk in depth of it. But I sat in my house one day, my phone rang, a woman said, is this Sammy the boat? And I said, um, yeah. Who's this? And she says, I'm the FBI. Um, want to talk to you. So I said, um, before you go any further.

• 1:06:48Speaker 00

  You know I'm on parole. If you're an FBI agent, you must know I'm on parole. Yes, we know. Well, my instructions were my parole officers that I don't answer any questions with cops. FBI or anybody. Unless I'm, I talk with them and they say it's okay for me to talk. So if you do me a favor. I don't know who you are, I don't know if you're the FBI, I don't know if you're a news woman trying to get under my skin or whatever the fuck it is. But. Call my FBI, my FBI parole officers. And if they talk to me, I'll maybe talk to you. So I'm going to hang up on you, I'm not going to be abusive and hang up.

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  With all due respect, I'm going to hang up and I'm not going to make any comments to you.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  So. If that's what I told the FBI, that's what I'm telling you.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Ah, that's funny. Got it. Well, let me, let me ask you a question.

• 1:07:46Speaker 00

  And if they're, if I'm called there, I'm already telling them, another thing, I'll give you a little bit. If I'm not subpoenaed, I'm not going. I'm not, I, I, you know, I'm just not doing it. If, uh, I'm subpoenaed and I have to go because I'm on parole. I'll go and we'll take it from there.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Did, did the Italian mafia, did the mob ever use the word eighty-six? Was that like a terminology you would use or not really?

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I, I know, you know, I had a dish of fucking. Rigatoni one time, I said, well, eighty-six this, get it, get it away from me. Eighty-six means to me, um, get rid of it. Whatever it is, get it, get rid of it, eighty-six it.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  But does it mean kill or does eighty-six mean get rid? Could it be translated as kill?

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  Now, anybody who says this, says Patrick is dumb is fucking crazy. Because look at what he's doing, he's trying to make me talk.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  I'm asking you a question about eight, I'm doing math, I'm trying to get better at math.

• 1:08:48Speaker 00

  Yes, well, here, here's what I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you this.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  I know you're a math guy.

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:54Speaker 00

  Now, if, God forbid, I'm going to use you as an example.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  Um, a guy calls me up. We're going to eighty-six Patrick Bedavid.

• 1:09:07Speaker 00

  I would hang up and I would say, they're going to kill Patrick.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  I mean, what else could it mean? It's, you know, any, everybody, everybody in the country, I think. Knows what eighty-six something means. So they, you know, it's that. Now, as a gangster, did I use eighty-six? If I was going to kill somebody? No. Because I think any moron would understand. I'm going to kill, I'm going to eighty-six Patrick. Oh, so you hear what Sammy said? He's going to try to kill Patrick. So I don't know all this gobbledygook, you know, what they're talking about or what all he's charged about. I didn't get all, any of that information.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  Now, his lawyer must have got some information from them. Saying that I'm going to be on trial or be called. And, um.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  So I guess we'll, we'll wait for that.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  I remember when we spoke with me and Michael, Michael used the phrase baloney. And I'll never forget, you said, who uses that word? This is why I wonder, because I don't know the language on how you guys speak, right? I'm not in the life, I've just spent a lot of time with you guys. And you're like, who says baloney? Nobody says baloney. Do you remember, do you remember that, that exchange? It was one of the funny moments of that, there was a few of them.

• 1:10:31Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, what he told me, Sammy, that's baloney. Who the fuck uses that terminology?

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  We're both good with Michael, Michael was here, I know you got a relationship with him as well, so.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  I do, but he comes out with some things, and he said baloney four times.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  I remember that, so, okay, so eighty-six. By the way, did you ever have any dealings with Comey back in the days? Did you ever do anything with Comey back in the days or no?

• 1:10:55Speaker 00

  I mean, I tell you, this guy's brilliant. Yes, I did. There was a case years ago.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Nineties, two thousand, eighties.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  We stopping over there. You know, I, you know, look at him, here he is.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  He's already pulling it up.

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, it's, what's fascinating to me. I'm not saying what he did, but I mean. If he took eighty-six.

• 1:11:21Speaker 00

  Forty-seven in seashells, took a picture of it and put it out for the world to see.

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  That's about as stupid as you can do. I mean, first of all, the president you're talking about had three attempts on his life.

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  And now this. Every screwball in the world, maybe not me or other guys, I don't know. But would look at that. And.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  You know. From a high official, it's like, I got a license, let me go kill Trump. So I don't know what his actual charges and what the FBI were. A pretty good one, I'm waiting to hear.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Have you and Comey ever been in the same room together?

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  You have? In the nineties?

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  So he, was he one of the guys that when you cooperated, he was in the room questioning all of that or no?

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  What do you mean questioning?

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  Was he one of the guys in the room when you. Eventually decided that I'm done, I'm leaving the life and I'm going to go cooperate, was he one of the guys?

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I don't, no, I don't think he's in there then. But I was on a couple of trials that, uh.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Was he a heavyweight even in the eighties and the nineties? Like, this is somebody you knew that this is, this guy's?

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, he was, uh, what was he, he was a head FBI guy, he was a head, uh. What, some sort of attorney general, he was powerful.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Comey was a young assistant to US Attorney in Southern District of New York. He worked on organized crime prosecutions involving the Gambino family. Sammy Gravano had become the government's star cooperating witness and turned on Gotti. Comey was part of the federal prosecution effort against Gambino figures, although he was not the lead prosecutor in the famous Gotti trial. Interesting.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  No, he wasn't the lead.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  He wasn't.

• 1:13:18Speaker 00

  But I had a couple of trials, I had eight, nine trials, so one of them, he was...

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  He was one of them. Was he strong? Did you get a vibe of a, you know, formidable guy, or?

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  Oh, he was a strong guy, yeah. Yeah, he wasn't a weak guy, he was strong.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Did Gotti know of him? Like, did Gotti know who he was? Or not really?

• 1:13:36Speaker 00

  I really don't know. I, I don't know if Gotti knew him. I don't know if I knew him before the Gotti arrest. I mean, I, I don't remember, I don't know.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Well, you've been in the same room with Comey before.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Multiple times?

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Dinner, playing cards, dominoes, chess? What was the occasion?

• 1:13:58Speaker 00

  I can't tell you.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:13:59Speaker 00

  Cases, on cases, I mean.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  So more than five times? More than ten times?

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  No, we can't talk. No, I take the fifth.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Really? You're gonna do Fauci today?

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  Fauci?

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Fauci pleaded the fifth, 111 times.

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  I mean, that's a disgrace, this guy.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 1:14:22Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:24Speaker 00

  This guy killed millions of people.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  He may get away with it.

• 1:14:29Speaker 00

  I can't see how he's gonna get away with it.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  You saw what they're doing. Trump announced today that he's removing all the auto pen, you know, his executive orders that Biden did of 92% wasn't signed, it was all auto pen. And if he does that, Rand Paul is going for Fauci. Rand Paul wants to get him.

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  I think there's more than them. I mean, listen, it's so obvious, that I can talk about, it's so obvious what he did. It's really disgusting.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  You really got me curious with this Comey thing.

• 1:14:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Really? You've never told the story?

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  Here's what I'll do. If I go down and I cooperate and I'm in this trial, you call me down, I'll come and do it. The first guy I'll come.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  No, no, but what, but what I, what is interesting about this is, are you not able to talk because you're dealing with the FBI right now? Or you're not able to talk because you don't want to talk about your relationship with Comey from the 90s? Those are two different things.

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I, you hit both chords.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  I hit both. So which one is it more?

• 1:15:31Speaker 00

  Both.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  So you've never talked about this with Comey, though?

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  No, this, the seashells.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  No, not the seashells. Seashells is recent, the stuff from the 90s, you've never talked about that.

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  Um, no. No.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  Now, you got me and everybody else watching, curious.

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's what I do.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Do you think Comey's a nice guy? You think he's a good guy?

• 1:15:55Speaker 00

  Um, you know, I don't have an opinion, like, I don't hate the guy, like, I want to go down and testify that I don't, and I really don't like him. I don't give a fuck about him if he goes to prison, or he stays out of prison, or, I, I don't have any kind of grudges with him, if that's what you're getting, no. I just think that an intelligent guy, if this is true, what he did, you know, and, you know, I don't know what witnesses they got, or what they're doing, I, they didn't tell

• 1:16:35Speaker 00

  me, so, um, it's, I think it's as stupid as you can get. I mean, I know I would never use the terminology on a murder, or anything like that, or pretended murder, to use the terminology 86, because I would think that every FBI agent in the world, in the country, would know what I'm talking about. Unless I was in a restaurant and I didn't want the food, then it's obvious, he don't want the food, he's arguing with the food.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  But the, the relationship with Fauci, not that it's, you guys broke bread, it's not a relationship, it's more about, as an AG, is that fair? Or was there a relationship between the two of you?

• 1:17:22Speaker 00

  I love this guy.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  This is...

• 1:17:24Speaker 00

  He's smart. You know, what did I say? You gotta wait until the end of the thing, he's going on trial, what, in October?

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Speaker 00

  It's right around the corner. Let's see what happens.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:17:42Speaker 00

  You know, you know what's scarier, like, a little bit? All of these heavyweights, it's Democrats, a lot. You do something and there's gonna be a witness, the witness disappears, the witness hangers himself, or, all of these fucking things. You know, I'm expecting someday, I mean, if he's panicking about me, they might be panicking about me, and they may say, let's take this motherfucker out. Yeah. If they think I know a lot and I'm gonna hurt them, maybe that's what they would want to do.

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  So, I would advise them, myself, make sure you don't miss. Because we'll be talking about you. Because these fucking people are fanatic with this stuff. They really are. And it seems like every time they get some sort of a case, who disappears, who gets, commits suicide, who falls on a knife, or who does this, or who does that.

• 1:19:03Speaker 03

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• 1:19:34Speaker 05

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• 1:19:59Speaker 00

  It's dangerous. These people are dangerous people.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're, you're, you're almost uncomfortable talking about it.

• 1:20:11Speaker 00

  No, I'm not uncomfortable talking about it, and if I was, I mean, I'm talking about it, I'm gonna be there if I'm subpoenaed, and we see how it goes, and, you know, then you just do what you gotta do. But, in other words, I don't want to add to this explosion I got, that was under Staten Island Advance, friends of mine are sending me, look what they're saying about you, uh, I got all the, another guy who talks about me all the time, look, he's ratting, I'm not ratting, I don't even know what the fuck is going on. You don't know what's going on. I'm ratting? How am I ratting?

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  It, it, is, what you know about Comey, if it came out, would it destroy his reputation?

• 1:21:00Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't know, does he have a lot of reputations? He got a good reputation?

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I'm talking about with you, from the 80s and 90s.

• 1:21:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I'm saying, the 80s and 90s, does he have a good reputation?

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  No, but, but if, if, if the stories of what the relationship is with you from the 80s and 90s were to come out, would it affect them negatively? Or would it affect you negatively?

• 1:21:22Speaker 00

  I don't know. You know what I've learned in this life, is that those 12 jurors make up their mind what they're gonna do, what they're gonna believe and what's going on. I don't know, they may love him, you're gonna put 12 Democrats on the stand, they might love him. Oh, he was saying this about Trump? Oh, I love him. This is how twisted the country is right now.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  But I'm talking about the truth, because you talk about the truth. If, what, the relationship of you and him, if that ever leaked, would that hurt him or help him?

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  I think you should get him on.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Oh, he won't do it though.

• 1:21:58Speaker 00

  He won't do it?

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  No, he won't do it. Comey, Comey, a lot of these guys, Sammy, they're better off just keeping their mouth shut and disappearing and going to all those fancy dinners in Long Island and, you know, with the Greenwich and all the stuff that they go to and behind closed doors. They should live that life. The more they open up their mouth, the more they incriminate themselves. These guys.

• 1:22:20Speaker 00

  I agree with you.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Speaker 00

  And I'm in the same boat now.

• 1:22:25Speaker 00

  It's the same with my, I could open up my mouth and get myself in trouble.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Well, let's go to, let's go to a couple of things and then we'll wrap up. The, the story with Mumdani came out, and you know, I'm curious to know how you, how you handled it. Mumdani, as the story comes out and they talk about all these places in New York and he puts the map of New York City's immigrant neighborhood sparks outrage for ignoring Little Italy. I'm sure you saw that if you want to go a little bit lower.

• 1:22:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  And this is the map, so you see the map, New York City immigrant enclaves, right? Zoom in a little bit because my eyes, I can't see anything. So you got Chinatown, you got Chinatown in, in Sunset Park, Guyana, Koreatown, Little Africa, Albania, you know, Colombian, Dominican Republic, Ecuador. You got everybody. Manila, Mexico, Odessa, Palestine, Pakistan, Poland, Ukraine, Yemen, Egypt, Little Haiti, Little India, and you forget Italy? You think this was an intentional error or an accidental error?

• 1:23:27Speaker 00

  I think it's intentional and stupid at the same time, almost putting it together with Comey's stupid and accidental and whatever. I think this is the same thing. This guy has got to be out of his mind in New York to do this. He's obviously against Jewish people. New York is full of Jews. Um, all over and they're good people. And you throw Italians out. I think you just put two races and nationalities together in a relationship. They, you know, I remember when they did the Italian-American League.

• 1:24:12Speaker 00

  The Jewish Defense League came down and rallied for us. Now you've got two of them together. I, I would imagine that in New York now you're going to have the Jews and the Italians rallying for each other. And you make your friends with them. Whether they like each other or not. We both got thrown out. I think it's a dumb move. But I, I'm really amazed. I was born and raised, as you know, in New York all my life. I'm amazed how they voted them in.

• 1:24:44Speaker 00

  It's a lot of these young kids coming out of college. And they don't have a clue when they're going against somebody who's.

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  Uh, this, this kind of a mentality against Christians, Jews, against all kinds of different things.

• 1:25:07Speaker 00

  Why would you want this guy in? This is your end result. Like when they say, when you vote, you got, well, you got what you want and now live with it and, and deal with it. And that's what they got.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but do you think, do you think he is intentionally leaving Italians out? Or do you think that's a mistake?

• 1:25:24Speaker 00

  I think it's a big mistake. I mean, there's a lot of Italians in New York and every single part of New York.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  Is there anything in here about Jews? Nothing. So no Jews, no Italians. And if you look at the population of Italians in New York, it's 7.6%. What are the top, uh, I don't know, top five biggest, uh, uh, uh, let's see, ethnicity population in New York City? I'm curious. What are the top five? 2.7 to 3.1, that's in New York, but New York City is going to be, you know, 800,000. So number one is Puerto Ricans. Then you got Italians, then you got Dominicans. Chinese, Irish, Mexican, German, Russian, Polish.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  And you leave Italians and they're the second biggest population in New York City? It's kind of weird.

• 1:26:19Speaker 00

  It is weird.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  It's kind of weird. And Jews is 1.3 million. And so number one is Jews, he left it out. Number three is Italian, you leave it out. Sammy, Italians, would you get, would the Italian mob, like all the families, would you all consider yourself patriots? Like love America? Assimilate, this is the greatest country in the world? Is that, was that the mantra for Italian mob?

• 1:26:41Speaker 00

  I think so, yeah. Yeah, I think so. There was a lot, a lot of people I know, including myself, was in the military, was willing to fight for the country. Um, a lot of guys. Guys were older than me, back in World War II and stuff like that. Oh, tons of guys. My father was an immigrant. He was a patriot. He loved the country, he loved the flag, he loved what he did.

• 1:27:06Speaker 00

  Um, you know, they were innocent people, trying to make a living, trying to grow. So, yeah, I, I, I think the mafia is patriot. You know, patriotic, uh, about things, you know? Not to a tremendous degree that they're going to go crazy fighting over it. But, you know, I think in what they believe in everything, the flag, you see them with holidays and stuff like that, they're, they're, they're good. They care about the country. My father, first thing I spoke was Italian. I, I never even knew how to speak English when I was a kid. Cause they were all Italians. They were all Italians and that's all I learned. My father had said, we got to stop doing this.

• 1:27:51Speaker 00

  Look, he can't even speak English. We came to this country, we're going to believe their laws, their flag, their country and their language. And all my grandmothers and everybody started talking English more. Every once in a while they talk in Italian, but they did it because they wanted to be part of this country. You're not here to divide the country. You're here to make it bigger and stronger and better. And if you left from someplace that was fucked up, this is more of a reason that you're going to come here and say, I'm going to make this better. I'm, I'm not going to make this screwed up.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  Not happening with everybody though.

• 1:28:26Speaker 00

  No, I know. It's, it doesn't happen with everybody because people have personal greed and selfishness. But you have to understand that, you know, when people make a move, like, like, let's say Donald Trump, he makes a move. He may benefit 80% of the people.

• 1:28:46Speaker 00

  20% are going to suffer. A little bit. And they're going to be so loud and crazy about it and, and that's the way it is. You can't fix everything. You're always going to hurt somebody.

• 1:29:01Speaker 00

  You, you do something one way, a lot of people are going to like it and a lot of people are going to, are not going to like it. That's just the way it is. Kennedy once said, don't ask what the country could do for you. Ask what you could do for the country. But people are, don't have that mentality. They don't. They're always worried about what could it do for me?

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Sammy, um, you know, you, you see some of these things that's happening to kids in America. You see, I don't know if you've watched the movie City is a Vigilante, you know, with the Uwe Bull, or you saw a guy named Rupert Lowe talk about the 250,000 young girls that were raped in UK and London. And 87% were Pakistani Muslims that did this to kids and. What, what would happen when you guys were fully active in the eighties? If a innocent young girl was raped by an older 30, 40-year-old boy, man, what would you guys do? How would the mob get involved?

• 1:30:03Speaker 00

  We would kill them. Listen, there was that guy, the son of Sam, who ran around. Now, we never bought it with the cops. When he was running around, his neighbor's dog, uh, was telling him to go kill people who are making out in the car, love his lanes and, a dog. The guy was fucking gone.

• 1:30:25Speaker 00

  The mob kind of was hunting him too. I remember sitting in the car with a girl, making out. I had a fucking gun on me. Whatever she was doing, I was looking out the window. I didn't want to get shot in the fucking head with this lunatic. I didn't know who he was. And then they caught him and the way they caught him, he got a ticket, he got this, he got that. He went to prison. They're gone. Mentally. So I, I think most people don't want him and, or things.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  No, I get that. But what I'm trying to do is some, sometimes people are like, cops are not even getting involved to protect people and some of that stuff is not happening. Did you guys take it upon yourself with men like this to get rid of them?

• 1:31:08Speaker 00

  Sure, sure. A child molester on the streets in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, or a rapist? I think he would get killed. I don't think he would get killed. In my time, if you're talking, he would get killed.

• 1:31:25Speaker 00

  Now, what it is right now, I, I, I, I don't know, but in my time, he would get killed. And in my time when I went to prisons, nobody wanted to be with them. You get a child molester or a rapist, sometimes they would get killed or beat up in prison. Nobody wanted to be around them.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  What would, what would happen to child molesters in prison? Like who, did anybody make it? Did they get beat up every day? Would they hide? Would they protect them?

• 1:31:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of times they had to move them to a special place. Special place, they had to get them away. Cause they're, they're, they're always, somebody's always giving them a problem, which they should. They, they, they're at least on the total poll of people that are respected.

• 1:32:09Speaker 00

  They don't, they, they don't respect you. They respect killers, all kinds of things. But not those kind of crimes. Because killers and everybody has families, everybody's got families, everybody relates to, oh my God, he raped a 10-year-old or a 12-year-old girl? Or a boy? They, they relate to it in a negative way. We don't, we can't stomach that. You know, and I don't want to be, I don't want the guy in the same room as me.

• 1:32:45Speaker 00

  I said, I, I hit a guy in prison, a priest, who got arrested for doing things.

• 1:32:55Speaker 00

  My lawyer, I'll never forget, it came to me, says, Sammy, there's a whole thing, did you hit a priest? I said, yeah. He said, are you sick? The newspapers are going to pick that up. They're going to say you hit a priest in prison.

• 1:33:11Speaker 00

  I said, "Bro, he was talking to me about what he does." "What?" "That when kids come in, he flashes them and he was giggling and laughing what it was about." "And I slapped him. I didn't really go to work on him bad. I just slapped him. I couldn't stomach-listen at them."

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  This guy's your cellmate?

• 1:33:34Speaker 00

  No, he wasn't my cellmate. He was in the unit.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  What made him feel comfortable sharing those stories with you, what he does to young boys?

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  Because he felt that, talking to me, I rather than I'm a parasite, or whatever the fuck it is, he felt. Something like that. And he could talk to me about it. I didn't get it at first when he was telling me. He says, "You know, the little girls, they love it." "They love what?" He says, "When I sit in the car, I got a coat on. I called them over. I got candy. I got things. They come running over." "And then when I expose myself, they start giggling and laughing. It's great. And I hit them." "And then in prison, came and talked to me. Even the prison guy. I thought I'm gonna go in the hole."

• 1:34:24Speaker 00

  "I didn't even go in the hole. They got rid of him." "Of course, the guards were against it."

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  It's a priest.

• 1:34:32Speaker 00

  He was a priest. Let me tell you his story. He was a priest who was doing this to kids, little boys. And he got caught up. And they moved him from Arizona to another state. But they didn't throw him out. They just moved him. Years later, one of those kids that he bothered, grew up, went to school, became a cop. The cop became like a sergeant or something like that. He was the head of a squad going after job molesters.

• 1:35:13Speaker 00

  And he called the guy up, the priest, and said, "My name is Joe Blow. And I want to thank you. I'm gay today because of you." And he starts saying, "I thank you for showing me blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And he talks back to him. Right after that phone call, it's bugged, obviously, he's arrested. In Arizona, they bring him back to-

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Set him up.

• 1:35:44Speaker 00

  They set him up. Bring him back to California. He's admitting the whole fuck, not California, Arizona. He is admitting the whole thing, everything he did. Now, when he's sitting with me in a unit, he's, became a witness to tell what they do with priests who do this. They just move them to another place. And then he just keeps doing what he's doing. They don't get rid of him. They don't do anything to him. So he's writing on bishops and whatever. The whole system.

• 1:36:28Speaker 00

  So hearing that, I couldn't stand him to begin with.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Hmm. What do you think used to happen to these types of people?

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  What do you think used to happen to guys like this?

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  Well, at bare minimum, take the priest, throw him out. Let him go to prison, just like anybody else.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  And that's enough? And I let the inmates take care of him?

• 1:36:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's at least. Maybe it's not enough, but it's at least do that.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:54Speaker 00

  If you move him to Florida, what's gonna stop him? He's gonna do it again.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:00Speaker 00

  You didn't stop him. You just transferred him. That's bullshit.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:05Speaker 00

  So, I mean, you gotta give him some sort of punishment or something.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  It's disgusting. It's happening. You know, it's an interesting story. You have a daughter. I got two daughters. Okay?

• 1:37:17Speaker 00

  I got your son on the phone. Your son, I got on the phone. He answered the phone. He said, "My father's not here. Take my word for it. He won't call you back for two weeks." I love that call.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  He's so funny. Good boy. But do you remember the first time your daughter brought a boy home to introduce to you, boyfriend, and what your reaction to it was?

• 1:37:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I think, um, I don't remember the first one, but I, I think I was cool with it. My, my daughter was very grounded. She was a tough kid. She was a very grounded kid. When she was, you know, I was very strong with her, and so was my wife. One day, I came home. I went in the kitchen. She came in the kitchen, and she started crying. I said, "What are you crying about?" She says, "I went out with my girlfriends." "Yeah?"

• 1:38:26Speaker 00

  "And we were drinking, and I took a little Coke." "Why are you crying?" She says, "I know I was wrong. And I just wanted to tell you." I said, "That's good. Because you knew what you did. You made a mistake, and you did something wrong. And you're confessing to me. So I'm not gonna be mad at you. Stay with that kind of an attitude. Stop crying. I love you. I appreciate you're honest. And you know this is gonna hurt you down the road. Stay away from all that crap." And she did. She became very grounded, my daughter.

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  So, and same thing with my son. So, knock on wood, I was a little strong and a little tough with them. But they turned out to be two great kids. I mean, my daughter does interviews and things, people, and had, she's a workaholic. She works, you know, hard out. She's open-minded. And, um, so she had a problem. She was able to trust me enough to sit with me and tell me the problem. I was man enough to not to hit her or turn around and scream at her, yell at her. I said, "You did, the best thing you can done was tell me the truth.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  And I see the way you're crying, and you're looking for forgiveness. You got it." And I think doing that, people have to be patient with their kids. Kids listen to other kids. They go out with other kids and do things. You have to understand that's part of life. And try to cut that all out and do the best you can with your kids. Stay on top of it. Don't go like a raving maniac. Give them respect. Let them love you and respect you. And if they make a mistake, they may come back. You know, I'm working on a program now, Prep National. I don't know if you heard about it, but Prep National. And, uh-

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  I want to ask you a question about this, going into Prep National.

• 1:40:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Question I want to ask you is, I remember the first time I had you on the podcast, 2019. The, the first one that we did where, you know, uh, you remember that one. One of the questions I asked you is, when you went to jail, you know, did you find Jesus? And I don't know if you remember that question or not.

• 1:40:58Speaker 00

  I, yeah, I do.

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  And here's the segment of it in the interview. I want to play this clip, and then I want to ask you what happened next. Go for it. A lot of people go to prison. They find Machiavelli. Some find Jesus. Who did you find in prison?

• 1:41:09Speaker 00

  You know, I looked for Jesus. I looked for prayer. And Jesus wasn't in any of the prisons I was in. And I already knew Machi- What I understood is this. Everybody believes in God, in one form or another. All the religions is nothing more than a road to God. The Jewish community has it. The Christians have it. The Catholics have it. The Indians have it. Everybody has that road to God. The Wiccan people, they all have the God. It's, the road is different, and we start arguing, fighting over it, but we all have the God. That's what it is. If you believe in God, it doesn't matter whether you believe a monkey. That's good. The guys I saw that found Jesus in prison, I've seen guys who found it.

• 1:41:53Speaker 00

  And they're usually crying and whining and asking you for less time and want to get out and do this, that, and the other thing. Or it's an excuse for something else. "The devil made me do it. I didn't do this on my own." I mean, they would, I would love, you know, this is what they would say if they were me. "The devil made me do it. I found Jesus in prison, and I became a holy roller, and that's it." No. I would be lying through my teeth. And one thing God's gonna do with me, I always said this, when I get up there, if I get up there, he's gonna say one thing about you, Sammy, "You're not a fucking phony or a liar. You tell it like you feel it. You did what you did, and whatever's gonna be, is gonna be." But to start lying and crying, how are they gonna face God?

• 1:42:36Speaker 00

  "All of me is a liar about Jesus. You didn't believe Jesus." "Yeah, but I had to get out of prison." But now you gotta face God. He's gonna know you. You're full of shit. You go on the express, on that train over there. Get the fuck out of here. So, I don't know."

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

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• 1:44:02Speaker 00

  A lot changed. I mean, I'm older, I'm wiser, I went through more things. When I left the life, I went through, this was a change, a part of my change. And when I went to Ocean Church in California, I met a pastor there. I became very, very friendly with him, and he wanted to baptize me. And I hesitated at first, I wasn't sure what to say. And then he said, "I'll do it on the beach. There'll be tens of thousands of people, all kinds of security, all of this stuff.

• 1:44:45Speaker 00

  And I'll baptize you, and Jesus will forgive you for your sins." And I said, "I don't want to do it that way. That looks fake to me. That I'm doing it for tens of thousands of followers or people, or this and that. If I do it, I want to do it between me, you, and I want to make it private, some small, a small thing. I don't want to blow it up, because people would say I'm doing this for publicity, or whatever." And he said, "All right, Sammy, that sounds good to me." And we talked, and talked, and talked, and I, it was a September time. I went with him, and we went to a friend of his house, and I became baptized in a pool.

• 1:45:30Speaker 00

  And I felt really, really, really good after I was done. And I felt good at different times when I thought about Christ, or I thought about God, or I thought about changing my life. And I was just mentoring this place. A friend of mine is a teacher for twenty-some-odd years. And he's doing Prep National. And it's a thing that helps kids with religion, with everything, all the way around.

• 1:46:08Speaker 00

  So I thought about it, and I said, "I think I'm behind this Prep National." A friend of mine, Jessica, is a very religious person, very smart person. And she talked to me about it, and I started really backing this Prep National very much. And I, it's almost like religion. You know, there's a lot of religion, and they go into religion schools and things like that. And I have things, I was dyslexic as a kid. And I think if I had this program that these people put together, I might have been different.

• 1:46:53Speaker 00

  I'm not stupid. I'm dyslexic. Words look screwed up to me, numbers look screwed up to me. But I know right from wrong, I know God exists. I was shot two different times and stabbed once. There was multiple meetings, and I think Patrick knows them, that I was supposed to go, and I was supposed to be killed. And I think that God didn't want that to happen. Why he didn't want that to happen, I have no idea right now. And I wanted to straighten my life out. I thought it was good for my kids, my grandchildren, and my great-grandchild.

• 1:47:35Speaker 00

  So I'm moving to get that into schools as much as possible, and pulling their lives together. My son, I tell my son, "Come with me." I go to Mass every week in Arizona. And if I'm in California, I'll go to the church, the Ocean Church. And I do that, and I feel good about things I'm doing right now.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  Do you think you're going to heaven?

• 1:48:05Speaker 00

  I don't know. That's God's decision. I think that, I believe what they say in the Bible and the pastors, that when you are baptized, Jesus forgives you for your sins. Now, if that's true, since that, I don't think I have any major sins, I know I don't. So I don't see why I wouldn't go, but I don't know. I really don't know. But I don't want to gamble and just do what I feel like doing. And I don't feel like doing anything to hurt anybody, or to deceive people, or to do certain things. I don't really want to do that anyway.

• 1:48:46Speaker 00

  I want my podcast to go, I'm working on a scripted show, I want to get that to go. And it's crazy, I mean, I wish you could talk to some of those people that I'm working with. When I talk to them about it, I say, "I want everything to come out the truth." My brother-in-law, everything. Everything that I didn't want to come out. I want to leave my life where, what I was. Before, in the middle, after, whatever it is. Because I think I owe that to my daughter, my son, my grandchildren, and people who love me and around me, friends, people, that I care about.

• 1:49:31Speaker 00

  And if I don't do that, there'll be nobody who'll care about me.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Do you pray daily?

• 1:49:38Speaker 00

  Not every day, no, but I pray a lot. I do, I pray a lot. I pray a lot because I do live shows on Mondays and Thursdays. People call me with their, who's their son, their daughter, and father, and mother in a hospital dying, this, that, and I pray for them. I do pray for them. So I don't always pray for myself or for something. I can't get the scripted show done just yet. I pray for that. And I pray for things I think are worthy for me to pray for, for God to listen to. But I think he listens to everything anyway, and knows everything, so...

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Wow, that's an, that's an interesting testimony. And you see, that's the, that's the beautiful thing about God, right? Faith, seeing, when I saw you getting baptized, I'm like, I remember asking him about it. And I wonder how he's going through it, you know? I wonder how it's going, there's got to be, you know, because, because we all are emotional and logical human beings. You have a very logical side to yourself.

• 1:50:47Speaker 00

  I do.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, where it's like, logically, why would he forgive me for the life I've lived? The only way you can make sense of it is emotionally and grace, and, you know, at the end of the day, it's faith. We're not going to know until the day comes. But, yeah, when I saw that, I saw this video. You want to play this video? I think this is the video.

• 1:51:07Speaker 02

  Rise up out of these waters with a new nature, a new heart, a new mind, and a new life. Father, right now, the old man is going under, and God, the Spirit of God, is coming up out of Sammy as he rises out of these waters in newness and life.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  It was interesting seeing this.

• 1:51:25Speaker 00

  It's interesting to me, too, because without this, take this away, what do I have? Nothing. I might as well be dead. With this, gives me life, gives me joy, gives me forgiveness, gives me reasons to want to help people, not hurt people. So I love what I did, I feel good about what I did, and I conduct myself each and every day. I got people attacking me left and right, all over the fucking place, and I don't retaliate. I got people saying things about me that would be dead if I was like I was.

• 1:52:10Speaker 00

  And they're not. And I constantly listen to the preachers and people saying, you know, forgive even them. So God wants me to forgive them. Now, I'm not going to go give them roses, but I'm going to forgive them that I'm not going to hurt them, and I'm not going to do anything. And I feel better about it. The other way around, you never know when you're going to get pinched, when you're going to go to prison, when something's going to happen. So I try to be as positive as a person as I could be, and do what I do. And I'm, I'm happy with it. I'm good with it.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad to hear that you're going through this. You know, you and I have known each other now almost ten years. I remember the first phone call I made you. I called you, and I'm like, "Hey, Sammy, Patrick B. David here." Who the fuck is Patrick B. David? I said, "I'd like to interview you." I'm not doing an interview with nobody. The only one I've sat down with is Diane Sawyer, got 20 million, one of the biggest interviews of all time in 1994. And then that started our relationship, when we flew out to Arizona, we sat there, and you know, Mario and all that stuff, and it's been an interesting journey. But for those watching, if you want to learn more about Prep International, we're going to put the link below, where you can go and learn more about this, Empowering Schools for a Brighter Future, Comprehensive Mental Health Awareness

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  and Substance Abuse Prevention for Schools and Communities, Elevate Your Schools' Well-Being with Your Tailored Online Resources and Services to Foster a Nurture and Environment. So we're going to put the link below to learn more about it. And Sammy, as usual, it's always good talking to you, man.

• 1:53:47Speaker 00

  It's my pleasure to talk to you and be with you, and I love this guy. We do have a ten-year relationship, and it's very good.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Looking forward to the future. Thank you so much, Sammy. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye, bye-bye.

• 1:54:01Speaker 00

  Bye-bye.

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