Michael Wolff OPENS UP About Epstein, Trump Intel & Clintons | PBD Podcast | Ep. 632

Patrick Bet-David sits down with Trump biographer Michael Wolff for a revealing conversation as Wolff exposes Jeffrey Epstein’s gossip network, Trump’s private intel and inner circle, and the long list of powerful enemies Trump has made along the way. ------ 🎧 MICHAEL'S PODCAST "INSIDE TRUMP'S HEAD": https://bit.ly/45C868S 📕 MICHAEL'S BOOK "ALL OR NOTHING: HOW TRUMP RECAPTURED AMERICA": https://amzn.to/4mjMPYx 🎫 THE VAULT 2025 | SEPT 8TH - 11TH | THE GAYLORD PALMS | ORLANDO, FL: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/40lR90L⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/40lR90L 🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4jYg3Lh⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4jYg3Lh 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/41rtEV4⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/41rtEV4 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4g57zR2 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A 📱 CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4ikyEkC⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4ikyEkC 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3ZjWhB7⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/3ZjWhB7 📰 VTNEWS. AI: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3OExClZ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/3OExClZ 🎓 VALUETAINMENT UNIVERSITY: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3BfA5Qw⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/3BfA5Qw 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or 💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:26Speaker 01

  Stonefire Naan is made with real buttermilk and ghee. It's the perfect flatbread for any occasion.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  I put out Stonefire Naan with dips at every dinner party.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  I make naan-grilled cheese when my daughter has friends over.

• 0:37Speaker 03

  I use Stonefire Naan to reward the humans who do my bidding.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  Right. It's perfect for camping trips.

• 0:44Speaker 03

  Dance for it, feeble mortal.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Sorry, is he talking to me or...

• 0:48Speaker 03

  Dance. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  From our tradition to yours. Stonefire.

• 0:54Speaker 03

  Together we Naan.

• 0:56Speaker 04

  They were the most important relationship, non-family relationship in each other's lives.

• 1:04Patrick Bet-David?

  That's a new fact. What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds and hundreds of hours specifically related to Trump?

• 1:10Speaker 04

  As I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house.

• 1:22Patrick Bet-David?

  So so far we have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you?

• 1:27Speaker 04

  Well, yes, yeah. Bill Gates, yes. Epstein-related conversations to me about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife.

• 1:38Speaker 06

  I did not like that he'd have meetings with Jeffrey Epstein.

• 1:41Patrick Bet-David?

  Why would Ehud Barak visit his place 36 times?

• 1:45Speaker 04

  Ehud is an incredible gas bag. You know, I think that he will go, "Oh my God."

• 1:51Patrick Bet-David?

  What were the last text exchanges with him? And exactly how much longer after his last text to you that he died?

• 1:58Speaker 04

  It came through his lawyers.

• 1:59Patrick Bet-David?

  So the lawyer told you that could be a cryptic message?

• 2:03Speaker 04

  I mean, it is a cryptic message.

• 2:24Patrick Bet-David?

  My handshake is better than anything I ever signs, right here.

• 2:29Patrick Bet-David?

  You are a one of one? My son's right there. I don't think I've ever said this before.

• 2:38Patrick Bet-David?

  Today, we have a special guest with us, Michael Wolff, New York Times bestselling author, Fire and Fury. It was one of the most talked about books in the last election that we had. Sold millions on top of millions of copies of books. Journalist, magazines, paper, list as long. Michael, it's great to have you on the podcast.

• 2:54Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:55Patrick Bet-David?

  Yes. So, Michael, this is, this is what I'd like to focus on today's conversation to be. It's, one, obviously Epstein-driven, because you have the 100 Hours with Epstein that we've all read about and heard about. Two, his business model, how he made his money, Epstein, we keep hearing about different types of ways he made money. Is there a blackmail list? And then, aside from that, the, the, the way he passed away, I think he called his German girlfriend before he died, but he also, you're the last person he texted before he died. So you've had a lot of time with him, you've spent three hours with Trump, so you've had one-on-one with both of them. And there's a lot of conversations about a possible Mossad link. Is there anything there? Is there not anything there? So, those are

• 3:40Patrick Bet-David?

  some of the items I'd want to talk about here today.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  Great. Let's, let's do it.

• 3:44Patrick Bet-David?

  So let's get right into it. So if you don't mind, just start off, maybe sharing with the audience, your relationship over the years, and how many hours you spend with Epstein, as well as your relationship with President Trump.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  Sure. So in 2014, I had, I had known Epstein somewhat before this. He had tried, he was a, a member of a group of wealthy men who in 2004, 2005, tried to buy New York Magazine, where I worked and was the, the lead writer. So I got to know him, you know, fairly well during, during this period. Um, he did not, his group did not end up buying New York Magazine.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  Not long after that, his legal problems began. And then he went to jail. So I didn't really have any.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  Much, I didn't have any involvement with him until he got out of jail. Called me, we got together and then in 2014, he asked me to write about him, a book, magazine article. Clearly, he was interested in being rehabilitated. He had gone to jail, you know, he's for two counts of prostitution. One, one of those, those counts being under, an underage girl. And had, was a registered sex offender. So he wanted,

• 5:24Speaker 04

  he wanted to return to his, his, his life. And in large measure, he had,

• 5:33Speaker 04

  you know, still lived in his enormous house in, in Manhattan. Many people of influence and note were showing up. But he wanted to continue, continue this, this rehabilitation. And he figured if someone wrote about him, that would help. And I said, well, actually, I'm, I'm probably not the person and I'm probably not interested in that. And he said, that's fine, you know, I, I certainly didn't have to make a decision. And he said, well, why don't, if you're interested, why don't you just come whenever you'd like, talk to me, see if my story is interesting to you. See if you feel that I'm straightforward.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  And also, there's many interesting people who come to my house. And if you're interested, I will invite you on occasion.

• 6:29Speaker 04

  Anyway, nothing, nothing not to be, um, not to be not interested in here. And I said, you know, yeah, sure, um, no commitments necessary. And we did begin to talk and he did begin to invite me to some interesting gatherings at his house. And I was, um, I, you know, I was, I was, you know, his story was certainly, you could not help but be somewhat interested by this, this story. But then, and this rolls into your next question, in 2015, Donald Trump started a run for president. I started to cover his campaign.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Um, and that would ultimately be, he would obviously win. And I started to cover his years in the White House. And Epstein, at that point, and our relationship had been relatively infrequent. But at that point, he became a very interesting window for me into who Donald Trump really was. Because Epstein and Trump had been the best of friends. I mean, I don't mean just casual friends, acquaintances, um, someone he knew. I mean, the best of friends. Possibly, I, I think they were the most important relationship,

• 7:56Speaker 04

  non-family relationship in each other's lives. And, um, and his insights about Donald Trump, his knowledge about Donald Trump, um, his appreciation of, of all of the, you know, both, both, um, both gifts and, um, and otherwise about Donald Trump was immense. So he became very, very helpful to me. And, um, and we continued our relationship right up until, until he was arrested. And then a month later, after his arrest, uh, he died.

• 8:37Speaker 04

  And during this long period of time, from 14, 2014 to 2019, many of our conversations, and obviously with his knowledge, were, um,

• 8:50Speaker 04

  were recorded and those are recordings that I now have.

• 8:54Patrick Bet-David?

  Michael, I appreciate that. Very helpful for to know the backstory of it. So roughly, let's just say 100 hours. Of the 100 hours that you have, what were some things that he said? Did he did he sound like he was upset at the president? Did he sound like he was? He missed a relationship? Did he sound like he was over-exaggerating, under-exaggerating? Did you feel hate? Did you feel animosity? Did you feel betrayal? What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds and hundreds of hours specifically?

• 9:27Speaker 04

  Well, as I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship. He was, I mean, obviously, Donald Trump had had was about to become or was in the process of becoming the president and then became the president. So this this became became obviously a substantial fact in in in Jeffrey Epstein's life. His best friend had become the president. Now, this was a friendship that stopped over a dispute, a real estate dispute in 2004, and they became bitter enemies.

• 10:11Speaker 04

  You know, and and and briefly, and I recount this in one of my books.

• 10:19Speaker 04

  Jeffrey Epstein believed himself to be the top bidder for a piece of real estate in Palm Beach in 2004. He had bid $36 million for this Palm Beach house. He took his friend Donald Trump over to advise him on on the logistics of moving the swimming pool. His friend Trump then immediately went around his back and bid $40 million for the house and got the house.

• 10:55Speaker 04

  Epstein, on his part, believed and had Epstein had pretty intimate knowledge of Trump's financial basis. I mean, they were involved with deals together. Epstein was among Trump's business advisers, in essence. And Epstein believed that Trump did not have forty million dollars. Therefore, therefore, his he concluded that that that Trump was fronting for someone. And that this was essentially a money laundering, part of a money laundering scheme. And in fact,

• 11:34Speaker 04

  the house was sold, Trump sold the house within two years for ninety five million dollars, which would be a kind of a red flag that that something was going on here. Trump began to, Trump was Epstein was furious with with Trump over this real estate betrayal. And I often think that that men of a certain level of wealth, the thing that angers them most is is a real estate betrayal. But he started to threaten Trump with lawsuits and with going going to the press with this allegation that

• 12:18Patrick Bet-David?

  This is Epstein Epstein threatened to sue Trump?

• 12:22Speaker 04

  Epstein, yes, yes.

• 12:23Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay. And I've been to this house. It looks nothing like it does in this picture because they tore it down, they rebuilt it back up. I looked at this house four years ago with a realtor in Palm Beach who was showing me a bunch of homes. It's an immaculate house. I mean, the house looks, it doesn't look like a house. It looks like a museum. It's a beautiful property. So he's threatened to sue him, even though they're friends, he's threatened to sue him over this deal?

• 12:47Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. As I say, rich men break down over real estate disputes. At any rate, at that point, Epstein's legal problems began. The police began to investigate him over allegations that he was

• 13:07Speaker 04

  That there were underage women coming to his house. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house. And from that point on, they were, they were nothing but bitter enemies.

• 13:26Patrick Bet-David?

  And this is what he's telling you? This is one of the instances of what he's telling you?

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 13:31Patrick Bet-David?

  That the following happened?

• 13:32Speaker 04

  That, that is the version of this related by Epstein.

• 13:36Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay. If it's a hundred hours, you know, Michael, what else did he say? Did he say anything about Clintons? Did he say anything about, um, uh, uh, uh, other politicians or businessmen?

• 13:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, yeah. I mean, he said, he said a lot. I mean, the hundred hours is, is, is, is, is pretty much a, uh, in, in, in some sense, his autobiography. He's talking through the details of his life. Trump does not occupy most of these hours. Trump, I would say is, you know, 15%, maybe, maybe, maybe a little more.

• 14:12Patrick Bet-David?

  15% is a lot.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  I mean, he keeps coming back to Trump and obviously that's one of my interests here. So I'm pressing him on the, on the Trump relationship. But he's also speaking about broadly other things. Yes, he speaks about Clinton some, somewhat.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  Clinton turned his back on Epstein after Epstein's legal problems began. So he was, you know, I, I think, I think he felt that at best Clinton was a fair weather friend. And that was, that was largely, largely the regard he had for, for Clinton at this, at this point. And, and there was a set of other people like, like that.

• 15:01Speaker 04

  You know, many people turned on Epstein after this.

• 15:06Patrick Bet-David?

  What other names would you say so far? We have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you about?

• 15:12Speaker 04

  Well, yes, yeah, Ghislaine Maxwell. So Ghislaine Maxwell, who had been, who had been very close to him, obviously. After 2004, after the police stepped into this, 2004, 2005. She very much distanced herself from Epstein. And Epstein was, was hurt by this, I think.

• 15:39Patrick Bet-David?

  She distanced herself from Epstein?

• 15:41Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah, they had no, I mean, this is in the, in this story. And obviously Ghislaine is so, so closely linked to Epstein at this point. And the, and the one person in this whole scandal to go to jail. But the truth is that by 2004, 2005, she was pretty much out of his life.

• 16:03Patrick Bet-David?

  Wow.

• 16:05Speaker 04

  And yeah, I mean, a little, you know, again, it's very hard to separate. I mean, the whole facts of this, of this Epstein story are clouded. Not least of all by the fact that, that most of the information that we get about this story is from people who don't know anything, who are speculating or who are adopting the information they have heard from somebody else who doesn't know anything. And the people who do know things are, have been so paranoid about being connected to Jeffrey Epstein that they haven't spoken. So therefore, therefore, everything, or many of the things that we know about this, this

• 16:47Speaker 04

  story are soft.

• 16:51Patrick Bet-David?

  Did he say anything about Ghislaine that maybe the public doesn't know about that it stuck out? Any story that he said where you're like, wow, I never knew that. I think the, the public needs to know this story about the two of them.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  Well, I, I don't, I, I. I mean, I think what's not recognized is that A, that Ghislaine was out of his life at a relatively long ago moment, that while they had had a close relationship, a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, for a short period, after that, she increasingly became not his partner in crime, but his, you know, his functionary, his employee. She was, you know, she was getting

• 17:44Speaker 04

  paid and she was carrying out whatever duties he told her to carry out, or whatever duties she inferred that she had to carry out. So I think, again, that's another misperception of this relationship.

• 18:00Patrick Bet-David?

  That's interesting. If you're saying they didn't, no longer did things together. I think she got charged, found guilty in 2021, December 2021, which is less than four years ago. I think she's facing 20 years right now. It was sex trafficking of a minor, conspiracy to entice minors to travel to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors would intend to engage in illegal sexual activity.

• 18:24Speaker 04

  Right. But all of this, all of this, every specific here is, relates to what happened prior to 2004 or 2005.

• 18:35Patrick Bet-David?

  Got it. So this goes back to then. Michael, when you were interviewing and recording Epstein, was it mostly in his apartment? Is that where it was at? His penthouse in Manhattan?

• 18:46Speaker 04

  Well, it's not a pent, it's not a penthouse. It's a mansion.

• 18:51Patrick Bet-David?

  21,000 square feet. I think that's the one that Lex Wexner gave him. It's a beautiful property, from what I hear.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. And that's even another soft, soft thing that it said, you know, you hear it's 21,000 square feet. Epstein described it as 55,000 square feet. And it clearly is, I mean, you know, a good-sized townhouse in New York is about, you know, 15,000 to 20,000 square feet. This is...

• 19:25Speaker 04

  Triple the size of a good sized townhouse.

• 19:28Patrick Bet-David?

  Holy shit.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  I mean, it is, it's on a block in Manhattan on 71st Street between Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue, which is, it's a block of these significant mansions.

• 19:42Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 04

  But his dwarfs them all. So you see, I mean, there are these big mansions which you would say, oh my God, you know, that must be, you know, who could possibly live in that? Those are amazing.

• 19:56Patrick Bet-David?

  Fifty-five thousand.

• 19:56Speaker 04

  And then next to his, you say, this is truly mind blowing.

• 20:01Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, I mean, it's documented as the largest private residence in Manhattan, whether you call it a penthouse or whatever. So did you ever ask him why Lex Wechsler gave that to him as a gift?

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Yes, and he would deny that.

• 20:17Patrick Bet-David?

  He would.

• 20:18Speaker 04

  In other words, he said, yes, this was part of a financial transaction he had with Wechsler, the details of which I don't, I don't exactly know, but certainly he billed this as a, that he had bought the house from Wechsler.

• 20:35Patrick Bet-David?

  Did it not make you kind of sit there and say, I mean, I'm sure you've gotten nice gifts in your life. I've had a couple of nice gifts, you know, in my life, a couple of them from my friends and my wife. No one's been nice enough to give me a, you know, the largest private residence in New York.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  I once had a conversation with Wechsler about, this was the only time I met Wechsler, and he had said, and I said, you know, I mean, how did you meet, you know, Epstein or something? But, and I don't remember my question, but I remember his answer. He looked surprised and said, Jeffrey made me half a billion dollars.

• 21:16Patrick Bet-David?

  Jeffrey made me half a billion dollars.

• 21:18Speaker 04

  Yes, so I don't. Well, I assume from, you know, giving him financial advice, but I don't know. And possibly investment advice.

• 21:28Patrick Bet-David?

  I mean, that, a lot of people make a lot of people half a billion dollars, but they don't give the biggest private residence in New York.

• 21:35Speaker 04

  Well, as I say, as I say, from Epstein's point of view, this was not a gift. It was a transaction.

• 21:41Patrick Bet-David?

  Alright.

• 21:42Speaker 04

  The nature of that transaction, I don't know.

• 21:44Patrick Bet-David?

  It's a little bit suspicious on what happened here. When you walked into this private residence, you know how they say that painting of President Bush and Clinton, did you ever see those two paintings in the, in the property?

• 21:57Speaker 04

  I, I, I don't know the President Bush, I saw, I saw that one. It was in a little, a little, it was in a, basically in a closet off the main entrance.

• 22:08Patrick Bet-David?

  Did you ever ask him why he has that? That's a very weird painting for you to have of a president in a dress and a painting, in a, in a, in a painting. That's kind of weird.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it was a joke painting, you know, at, at one point, I, I never saw that painting. So, I, I don't, I don't know where, where the Bush painting is from. I have seen the Clinton painting and, you know, it was a, a joke. The nature of the joke, I'm not exactly sure.

• 22:38Patrick Bet-David?

  It's a rough joke.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  It's a, it's a point about Epstein that, that, that he treated almost everything like a joke. In fact, art itself was treated like a joke. The, the, the piece of art above his mantle, above the fireplace on the ground floor, was something he had bought on the street. Just a street painting for a hundred dollars or something. And then he had spent thousands and thousands of dollars on framing it. So it looked like a, partly because of this frame. It looked like a significant piece of art, which it was not.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  And it amused him that many of the wealthy men he knew spent enormous amounts of money on art, which he considered a kind of vanity or even a pretension, possibly a fraud.

• 23:44Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, so very, very interesting when you think about. So you saw the painting, Bill Clinton's, President Bill Clinton's. If you're gonna play a joke and you're gonna have all these guests that come in. I don't know if the former, who would book, you know, Barack, that these guys are coming over 36 times. If, if I'm living in America, I don't know if I'm gonna have a painting of the president like that in my house to make fun of the president. It undermines the leader of my country? Or there's some people that speculate that this was one way of him saying, hey, I have you, Bill. You better, and there's a lot of different speculations.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know. I mean, he certainly didn't have him. And, you know, the Clintons, Bill particularly, walked out of his life after the, um, the investigation started. So the, the painting may have been a kind of, there may have been some bitterness in this painting. And he kept this, this, this painting. And I don't really know where the painting came from. Um, but he was certainly not, you know, again, I, you know, I think it hurt him that, that, that Clinton turned on him like that.

• 24:54Patrick Bet-David?

  And that would even, that would be a validation of to say, now that you turned on me and distanced yourself from me, after all the fun you had with me traveling without Secret Service, just so you know, you better not screw me because I know you know what I know about you. In a very dark way, that would make sense to say, everyone that comes here, better not come after me because I'm, I know what, you know what I know about you.

• 25:20Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's possible, except that obviously people did come after him. Um, and, um,

• 25:28Speaker 04

  You know, there was no, you know, I, I think at various points, and there were people who wanted him to spill or share information about Clinton. And I don't think that, that, I mean, to my knowledge, that never happened. And, um, um, you know, I mean, I think that was, that was always a possibility in a, in a sense that Epstein believed in the, in the investigation, the initial investigation of him in Florida. So the investigation of him in Florida, as I understand,

• 26:10Speaker 04

  began as a, as a state investigation, actually, a local investigation by the, by the, by the police in Palm Beach. And then it was taken over by the feds, which would have been unusual.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  And Epstein believed that that was an effort by people in the Bush administration then to get information about Bill Clinton.

• 26:39Patrick Bet-David?

  Is this the Palm Beach story with the parents of the 14-year-old girl that said that, you know, she was molested by him? This is the 2006 story?

• 26:47Speaker 04

  Yes, this is the first investigation, investigation which began in 2004 and then sent him to jail in, I don't know.

• 26:54Patrick Bet-David?

  In your, in your eyes, Michael, having, having spent as much time as you did with him, do you think Epstein is a bad guy?

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• 28:00Speaker 04

  Well, he's clearly a bad guy. I mean, he clearly did things that I would not do and you would not do and we would hope that the people we know would not, would not do.

• 28:13Speaker 04

  And so, so, yeah, I mean, he's a sex offender. He went to jail. But is he, is he, in addition to that, an intelligent guy, a knowledgeable guy, a guy who had, who had insights to offer? I would say, in my experience, yes. Does one cancel out the other? No, but they exist together.

• 28:41Patrick Bet-David?

  Totally makes sense. I've met a lot of guys that are extremely knowledgeable and fun, even fun to talk to, but you know they've done something. I interviewed Samuel Bolgirano. He's gotta be one of the best storytellers I've met in my life.

• 28:55Speaker 04

  Well, yes, I mean, I've, I have a kind of specialty in bad guys.

• 28:59Patrick Bet-David?

  I know you do, that's why.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  You know, and, you know, I know a lot of bad guys.

• 29:06Patrick Bet-David?

  Well, it's your world.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  And they're not, they're not gangsters. They're guys who are, I would consider, as you probably know, Donald Trump to be a bad guy.

• 29:15Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay, so you, so, okay. So you think Donald Trump is a bad guy and, and you think Epstein is also a bad guy? So...

• 29:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I, and I think, and it's always, I think Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are very much similar people. That's why Epstein, knowing Epstein, Epstein supplies a window in...

• 29:36Speaker 04

  To who Donald Trump is because they were a so close but also so close in their in their interests.

• 29:44Patrick Bet-David?

  Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represents who you are. So for us, if you wear a Future Looks Bright hat or a value taming gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic, I'm excited about what's going to be happening, but you're a free thinker, you question things, you like debate. And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of Future Looks Bright gear with value tainment. We have so many new things. The cuff links are here. New Future Looks Bright. This is my favorite, the green one. Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for 100 of these. If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from.

• 30:22Patrick Bet-David?

  White ones, black ones. I- if you if you if you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high quality lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars. We got sweaters with the value tainment logo on it. We got mugs. We got a bunch of different things. But if you believe the future looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with value tainment, with PBD podcast, go to vtmerch.com. And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift inside just for you. So again, go to vtmerch.com, place your order, tell the world that you believe the future looks bright. So, okay, so let's let's let's go there. With the 100 hours that you have, are there,

• 31:04Patrick Bet-David?

  are there, is there anything in there? Like, let's just say I'm an interested buyer. I would be interested in buying the 100 hours that you have. I would be interested in buying Bannon's 15, 16 hours that he has, right? I would be interested in both of them.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  How? Let me just add about Bannon's, um, what the what the hours that Bannon has is that Bannon, I wouldn't buy them from Bannon if I were you because Bannon does not own them.

• 31:31Patrick Bet-David?

  Oh, who owns them? I didn't know that.

• 31:33Speaker 04

  The, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein paid for those, those, those tapes, um, that Bannon did.

• 31:39Patrick Bet-David?

  Wow, so the, so the trust owns it?

• 31:41Speaker 04

  Yes, oh, yes, the estate owns it.

• 31:43Patrick Bet-David?

  The estate owns it, so wow, okay. So that's, that's a new fact. I didn't know the fact that, you know, that recording is not, so Bannon couldn't sell it if he tried. So if he wanted to do a documentary, he would never be able to use those hours in a documentary.

• 31:55Speaker 04

  Yes, and again, and again, let me, let me stress that, that although Steve, who I am personally fond of, um, but, um, but Steve's cover here that he was making a documentary about Epstein is 100% not true. I know this because I was there and, um, um, I'm fully aware and actually have it on tape of what, of what transpired here, and that was Bannon's effort to help Epstein with his legal problems. And this would be in, um, 2019, when the law was closing in on Epstein.

• 32:37Speaker 04

  And Bannon's suggestion was that Epstein go on national TV to try to perform a mea culpa or explain or humanize himself in some way. And then Bannon offered to help prepare him. So essentially, what Bannon was doing was media training. Um, he was tutoring Epstein in how to face a hostile interview on a, you know, on a hypothetical 60 Minutes.

• 33:09Patrick Bet-David?

  Got it, so more of a training, a PR, uh, than anything else. So let's, let's talk about your 100 hours that you have with him. How many, how much information is in there that it's bombshell, you know, you know, earth-shattering type of information where the public should know about? Out of the 100 hours you have with him?

• 33:30Speaker 04

  Well, you know, it's a, it's a funny aspect of this. And, you know, people call, call me up now, you know, people of significant standing and say, is there, um, you know, on the tapes, does, does Epstein promise Trump, um, uh, young girls? Um, or does, does, um, Epstein promise Bannon younger? I, it's that kind of thing. And, and I'm, and I'm, and I kind of say, You know, I don't know, you know, you've obviously never done interviews with, with, with, with people. I mean, when they ask that kind of thing.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  You know, these, these conversations unfold over a long period of, over a long period, and these are conversations like life itself. Epstein is talking about his life. There's lots and lots of details. There's lots of information that would be surprising. I suppose there are, you know, the Daily Mail could go through this and pull out a thousand headlines that, that, that would seem headline-worthy. When you listen to these tapes, or when you were present, as I was, during, during these

• 34:54Speaker 04

  things, you don't have that feeling. You have the feeling that this is incredibly interesting, fascinating, and it exposes a, a, a life. So, what you get is a life rather than, than headlines. Although, as I say, I'm sure you could go through this and pull out the soundbites, which would then add up to, to headlines.

• 35:21Patrick Bet-David?

  Would, would the FBI or the DOJ benefit from having access to these hundred hours?

• 35:28Speaker 04

  Well, benefit for what purpose? Since Jeffrey Epstein is already dead.

• 35:35Patrick Bet-David?

  No, not, not necessarily. We know he's already dead. Just to gather more intel. Would the FBI or the DOJ, if they're trying to get to the bottom of this, would they, would they get anything?

• 35:46Speaker 04

  Well, I think it's a question of what they're, of what they're trying to get to the bottom of. If they are trying to get to the bottom of who Jeffrey Epstein was, about the real nature of Jeffrey Epstein's personality, about Jeffrey Epstein's, not only his weaknesses, but his strengths. If they, if the Eps, if the, if the FBI and the DOJ were biographers, as I am, they would find it interesting. Since they are not biographers, I think that they would probably be. They would probably be less, less interested than certainly I am.

• 36:27Patrick Bet-David?

  The FBI's job, you know, different than CIA. CIA is international, foreign. FBI is domestic. Their job is to make sure, you know, families in America are going to be safe, Americans are going to be safe. So anybody that's tied to this, or to even eliminate, or address a future next Epstein, they would probably benefit from studying the patterns of how this guy communicates. And if that's the case, has the FBI, has the Department of Justice, have they at all reached out to you since you've had these for six years, whether it's under Biden or Obama, Biden or Trump, to say, "Hey, Michael, we think we need access to this recording that you have?"

• 37:05Speaker 04

  No, they haven't, and they probably haven't for a lot of reasons. First, I'm a journalist and a writer, therefore, therefore that becomes a complicated, a complicated thing. I mean, you know, Epstein was a source for what I was, what I was doing. So I think that they understand the difficulties there. And then I also think they're probably unclear on what, they probably have no goals. There is probably no open investigation of, of, of Jeffrey Epstein, and of course, to what point he is dead. And there's no, there's no, to my knowledge, open investigation of anyone else involved with Jeffrey Epstein.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  Ghislaine is obviously, has obviously been, that's been convicted. I mean, she's been convicted, she's in jail, and it's now headed toward a part. And so I don't think that there is, that there is any, any issue there. So, so again, crossing these disciplines of, of, of someone who has been interested in, someone has material that, that...

• 38:20Speaker 04

  That reflects the full life of this of this man. And then the the FBI and the DOJ, who are not interested in the full life of this man. They're interested in only their from their their highly segmented view of any given person.

• 38:41Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, but not even a door knock, right? You've not even gotten a door knock on them. Hey, Michael, can we see this? You've had nothing, no email, no door knock, no text, no phone call.

• 38:49Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 38:50Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay. And if you were to sell it to an interested party, what would be the range of your asking price?

• 38:55Speaker 04

  Well, I I probably I wouldn't sell it. It's not it's not for sale.

• 38:58Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay, so you're not selling it. I got it.

• 39:00Speaker 04

  No, I I'm not a I'm, you know, I'm not a, no, I'm a writer.

• 39:04Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  So this is a story that that I think is worth telling. As a writer, it it's a story that, um, you know, I I mean, it's a it's a pretty interesting story for me. So, um, so how I tell it and when I tell it, you know, is a kind of an organic and natural process. But, um.

• 39:28Patrick Bet-David?

  I don't know why I got the impression that you were open to selling it. And you you said some people reached out or they didn't, or you were surprised?

• 39:37Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I have spoken to many, many outlets and and, you know, but it is about telling this story. Um, it is not about, I I would never sell this. I would never, um, you know, this is, this is, and this is an important aspect of being a writer and a journalist. This is my story.

• 40:01Patrick Bet-David?

  Makes sense.

• 40:01Speaker 04

  Not anyone else's story.

• 40:03Patrick Bet-David?

  I respect it. I respect it. Michael, on the topic of, uh, you know, uh, with his meeting, did you ever ask him about? Because, you know, a lot of I've sat down with his brother.

• 40:12Speaker 04

  On the topic, on the topic of.

• 40:14Patrick Bet-David?

  I I've interviewed his brother, Mark Epstein. He came to my cigar lounge about a, I don't know, year and a half, two years. I don't know the exact date, but he was with us for a couple hours. And we sat down, we had a lot of conversations. Well, that's an interesting conversation. I enjoy talking to the guy, uh, on on what he had to say. You'll hear the name being dropped of Mossad regularly that he had ties back to Mossad. I mean, why would Ehud Barak visit his place 36 times? Why would he, you know, regularly have access to the White House when he would go see Clinton? Did you get a feeling from the 100 hours you guys spoke together that there was any ties to the Mossad?

• 40:50Speaker 04

  Sure, sure. Let me, let me, let me give you precisely my feeling. Because I don't know, and, and, you know, Epstein, I think it's very possible to say left Epstein lived a very compartmentalized life. You saw what he wanted, wanted you to see. But I had been at Epstein's house many, many, many times when Ehud Barak was there. Certainly a dozen times, maybe, maybe more. And, and Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein were very close. I mean, I think among, you know, they were, they were certainly among each other's closer friends.

• 41:34Speaker 04

  And, and, you know, I think it's been documented that, that Ehud Barak got money from Epstein. And they were, had various, various business dealings together. But also, they clearly enjoyed each other. I mean, I saw this again and again and again. And, and, and obviously Ehud Barak has a, had a, had a very clear connection to Mossad. Although Ehud Barak, the former, a former prime minister, was out of, out of power. But very much knowledgeable about, about and engaged in the Israeli politics

• 42:18Speaker 04

  and the Israeli power structure. Having said that, and, and therefore Epstein himself was very knowledgeable about, about, about Israel, about its interests, about, about its politics, and, and to a degree about its intelligence. My view of, of Epstein, however, is that he was, he possessed...

• 42:51Speaker 04

  The information he possessed would be better characterized as gossip rather than intelligence. And Epstein was a great gossip, a great purveyor of information. Information in whatever form. And he was a purveyor of that information to a wide variety of people. I mean, he certainly was not, he certainly had no one client he was passing information to. Information was part of Epstein's currency.

• 43:30Speaker 04

  And it was a currency that he used for, I think, financial gain, but also for social climbing. So, one of the reasons people would come to Epstein's house and sit around his table is that you would hear things that the New York Times didn't know. And, but this was not carefully shared. This was, as I say, a gossip's currency.

• 44:05Patrick Bet-David?

  I mean, some would say gossip and intel are cousins. You know, they're somewhat related. I can still gossip and give you intel.

• 44:12Speaker 04

  No, I'm sure that they are related. They're just not the same thing. And I'm not sure that if you would, that you would necessarily want your intelligence agent to be one of the world's biggest gossips. Because he couldn't contain himself. He would tell anyone anything.

• 44:30Patrick Bet-David?

  He couldn't contain himself. Epstein couldn't contain himself. So he was always talking.

• 44:35Speaker 04

  Always, constantly.

• 44:36Patrick Bet-David?

  So then that's actually, that makes for a terrible missile, terrible CIA missile. Because, and a part of it, which is kind of weird, when he said they had a, at one point, Ehud Barak... They had a scheduled monthly meeting, I think fifteen consecutive months and one time in and these happened like at twenty fifteen, twenty seventeen, twenty thirteen, if I'm not mistaken, somebody can search this and verify it. And even at one point, Ehud Barak said, "I actually didn't know about his dealings in the past. I didn't know that he had these things that were said," which is kind of naive to say that, being the prime minister of Israel.

• 45:08Speaker 04

  Ehud is, is, is, is full of shit. Um, you know, Ehud knew Jeffrey, I mean, I mean, did Ehud know that Jeffrey's, that, that Jeffrey Epstein had clearly had a fetish for young girls? I don't know, I don't know to what extent, um, Ehud knew that. But Ehud certainly was not, did not know, as he now represents, um, Jeffrey Epstein on a casual basis. They were close, close, close friends.

• 45:41Patrick Bet-David?

  Did you, what did you, what was your feeling about Ehud when you were running? Was it just like it was nonchalant, they were just hanging out because the investment Epstein had made, I think, in Carbine nine eleven? Or did you, what feeling did you get from him? Good, bad, indifferent?

• 45:55Speaker 04

  Completely, completely. Ehud was there, came to Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein's because he enjoyed it. He enjoyed meeting other people. He enjoyed, I mean, Ehud, who, as I say, I, you know, have spent a lot of time with, with him. Ehud is an incredible gasbag. Um, I, you know, I think that he will go, oh my God. Well, you know, he would go anywhere, he would be anywhere in any situation in which people were, um, he had a captive audience to listen to him. Go on and on and on and on. And, and, uh, you know, and Jeffrey Epstein listened to him. He indulged, um, him for, you know, I, I mean, I mean, Ehud, Ehud gave, you know, I mean,

• 46:40Speaker 04

  I would say in any hour block of conversation, Ehud might supply five minutes of, of interesting information.

• 46:49Patrick Bet-David?

  When you were running Epstein?

• 46:50Speaker 04

  Fifty-five minutes of others, you would have to work.

• 46:53Patrick Bet-David?

  I haven't heard that word in a long time. Did you see, when you were there on your visits, did you see? Young girls, did you see a lot of pretty girls? Did you see models there? Was that something that was part of the energy of being in this place or not at all?

• 47:05Speaker 04

  Yes, there were always a set of young women. And I mean, young women, they would clearly have been in their twenties.

• 47:18Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  You know, possibly even late twenties.

• 47:23Patrick Bet-David?

  That's old for him, though. I wouldn't be surprised if he-

• 47:25Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah, no, who were there as assistants and, you know, basically assistants.

• 47:37Patrick Bet-David?

  Define assistants, because there's a lot of ways to assist men.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  Well, no, they did. They took, they made his appointments and they-

• 47:46Patrick Bet-David?

  Oh, assistants, like assistants, or do you think they were assisting?

• 47:50Speaker 04

  No, no, they were assistants, like they were the receptionists, they were the this, they would come in, they would bring him-

• 47:58Patrick Bet-David?

  Forgive me, I thought you meant something else. So, okay, so you're saying there were his personal assistants that were there? And are they bringing you tea, coffee? Hey, would you like some?

• 48:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, they did, they did, they did all of that. I mean, I always equated them, you know, if you live in New York, where I've lived for a long time, you know, there are high-end art galleries in which there are always clearly young women who are the receptionists and who are there to to kind of guide you, give you information, and they all are clearly chosen because of their poise and the way they present.

• 48:45Speaker 04

  And that's what these women in Epstein's house, and I think they were different from the women, you know, the massage women in Palm Beach and then the set of Eastern European models that-

• 49:04Speaker 04

  That would, that you would occasionally see, um, you know, I think that there, this, this was, so this was part of this carefully orchestrated ecosystem of women around Jeffrey Epstein.

• 49:20Patrick Bet-David?

  When you were at his place, did Bill Gates or Barack Obama ever come by, or no? You, you did not see them there?

• 49:25Speaker 04

  No, I don't, I don't think Barack Obama knows, knows, um, Epstein. Uh, Bill Gates, yes.

• 49:33Patrick Bet-David?

  So Bill, you did see Bill Gates' visit, so he was around? Oh, okay, got it. So I think his wife at the end, you know, when she said something in one of the interviews, where she's like, "I was not comfortable how close he was getting to Epstein." And even Bill Gates in another interview later on said, "Yes, I probably shouldn't have gotten close to him, etc., etc." We've seen this interview, you, you definitely have seen it as well.

• 49:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, no, and I think that that's a, I mean, I think Gates and, and Epstein were actually quite close, and certainly as long ago as, you know, 2014, Epstein-related conversations to me about, about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife. So I think that it was a, um, you know, and, I mean,

• 50:23Speaker 04

  one of the things that, that Epstein did, and one of the things that he was involved in, when he, when he was involved with these very, very wealthy men, he got involved in, in family matters that impacted on the fortunes, on these various fortunes. Um, and obviously divorce impacts on a great fortune.

• 50:50Patrick Bet-David?

  Got it. So this is the whole idea about, hey, let's take this money and put it elsewhere, pre-getting married, and pay a consulting fee to prevent from having to pay half of it, creative ways of not paying as much to your spouse if you go through a divorce?

• 51:07Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 51:08Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay, got it. Uh, in regards to the business model, did you guys talk about how he makes money? I mean, how he originally made his money? Because I've never-

• 51:16Speaker 04

  Yes, we, we did, and that's always a, you know, I think that that's one of those, um- One of those aspects of his life that was very compartmentalized. I mean, I have had this discussion with him, but do not feel that I I certainly didn't feel that I was getting the whole story. Quite, quite the opposite. It was rather, he was, he kind of teased you with the story. You know, for, at, I mean, he told me once, he said, when I pressed him, you know, and I said, okay, tell me, come on, where it is? Where does the dough come from? I mean, I've seen him, you know, in, in, in many instances.

• 52:01Speaker 04

  I never saw him, however, do a lick of work. So what was going on? Where did this come from? And he said, and I remember, he said, and this, again, in a very, in a very teasy kind of way. He said, well, I run something like a reverse Ponzi scheme. In a real Ponzi scheme, you make money that does not exist, appear to exist. In my Ponzi scheme, I make money that exists, appear not to exist. And the example was, if you're a wealth, very wealthy person, and getting a divorce,

• 52:42Speaker 04

  and if you hide a hundred million dollars, or at least make a hundred million dollars if your wealth disappear, you've just made, saved fifty million dollars.

• 52:52Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, there was a guy that Mark Epstein told me that was Epstein's mentor. I, I don't remember the gentleman's name. He went away and he was in the, Stephen, what's his name? Stephen Hoffberg? Is Stephen Hoffenberg? I don't know if you know about, okay, yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  I do.

• 53:08Patrick Bet-David?

  Did that name ever come up or no, between the two of you?

• 53:12Speaker 04

  You know, it came up in the Hoffenberg, who, who Epstein had been involved with, and Hoffenberg had an insurance company that collapsed. And Hoffenberg went to jail for, for a long time, like, I, I don't, like fifteen years.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  And then he got out of jail and he started to press Epstein. For what I I don't exactly know. But but it was. That was something I was aware of going on in the in the background.

• 53:53Speaker 04

  Now, Mark Epstein, just by the way, you know, had also not been really. His relationship with his brother had had been was at best strained for quite a number of years.

• 54:07Patrick Bet-David?

  He said that as well. He said that as well, that they were not as close. I said, you guys live a few minutes with each other. How often you guys have dinner or lunch together? Not that often, maybe once every couple. I'm like, you're a few minutes away. So that was a very interesting dynamic as well, the relationship between the two.

• 54:22Speaker 04

  In my understanding of of that, and I don't have a complete understanding because, I mean, that was not something that Epstein seemed to want to talk about. Was that his brother distance after Epstein's legal difficulties beginning in two thousand and four. His brother, like Ghislaine, distanced himself from. From Jeffrey Epstein.

• 54:48Patrick Bet-David?

  So you you two people who he contacted last before he passed away. One of them was his German girlfriend. Who's Karina.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  She she was not German. She was from, as I understand, and I mean, I had met her a few times, from Belarus.

• 55:05Patrick Bet-David?

  She was from Belarus. We got to get this right because, you know, the guys. Her name is Karina Shuliak. Karina Shuliak. Belarus. Okay, so from Belarus. And I said, German, forgive me to all the people from Belarus. I didn't want to offend you. So, uh, so so she he calls her last one, but he texts you last. What were the last text exchanges with him and exactly how much longer after his last text to you that he died?

• 55:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, I think that he, I mean, and he, it was not a text really, it was, it came through his lawyers, so he couldn't text. He was given, they had gotten him the clearance to call the girlfriend.

• 55:52Speaker 04

  But my, my, the message to me had come through one of the lawyers. I mean, I knew the lawyers and I passed them a message. I said, you know, I mean, just, and the message that I sent to him was, you know, you know, how are you doing? Or, you know, just that kind of, that kind of thing. And, and his response to that message was, um, in let's, the context of this is that's about a week before he had apparently tried to hang himself, or that's what people said, or again, a confusing situation. But his response to me was, quote, "Still hanging around."

• 56:33Speaker 04

  "How are you?" "Still hanging around?" And then X number of hours later, I mean, this was on Friday, early on Saturday morning, he was, um, um, found, you know, with a bed sheet around his neck in his cell.

• 56:50Patrick Bet-David?

  That's a weird text. So, so the lawyer sends you a text of his last message saying, "Still hanging around"? Maybe he was hanging around, meaning the lawyer saying he's dying. So the lawyer told you, "Still hanging around"? That could be a cryptic message.

• 57:06Speaker 04

  Well, I, I mean, I, I don't know. I mean, it is a cryptic message. But, you know, it is, I, I, I mean, in, in my understanding of, of Epstein and how he responded to things, he was responding to that the, the, the, the news coverage of that he had apparently tried to hang himself, but then they actually said he hadn't tried. But there was a, there was a dispute about that. And that was his reference to make a joke out of that, which would have been very Jeffrey Epstein-ish.

• 57:41Patrick Bet-David?

  Did Nicholas Tortagliano ever come up, the, the, his cellmate, the guy that, you know, multiple times beat up uh, uh, the same person on four different occasions?

• 57:51Speaker 04

  Didn't come up, didn't not come up with, with me. I mean, those are the community, that's the only communication I would have had with, with, um, or direct communication.

• 58:01Patrick Bet-David?

  With the last few minutes we have together here, Michael. So, this is why I wish this was face to face. We could go four hours. But, um, last, last conversation about Trump. So, you're, you're not a fan of Trump. Some would even say, you know, you have, uh, you have animosity towards him. Maybe even hate towards him. It's felt that way if I watch you in the interviews. What, what, where does your feeling towards Trump come from?

• 58:26Speaker 04

  Well, I, I don't. I mean, I, you know, I, I feel that, that, um, that Donald Trump is, should not be the president of the United States. Is not, is not the kind of person I would certainly elect as the president of the United States. Is not the kind of person who can carry out what I know to be the demands of being the president of the United States. Um, I mean, Donald Trump, I, I don't hate Donald Trump. I have no personal animosity toward Donald Trump. As a matter of fact, when we get, when we're together, we, we get along just fine. Um, and I've known Donald Trump for quite a long time, back in, in, in, uh, in New York days.

• 59:05Speaker 04

  Um, so, um, I, you know, I just, I just, I just feel that all of his, his impulses as the president of the United States are ultimately damaging and, um, um, and, um, and counterproductive.

• 59:24Patrick Bet-David?

  You, you think some of these stories of, you know, Melania, you know, how he met her and Epstein ties, you, you, do you think some of these could be coming from a place? Because everybody tried to get him on Russia. That came back, that wasn't good. Everybody tried to get him on all this stuff with 2024. Hey, here's his mugshot. And every single time, it seems like it's become the next hoax and the next hoax. So maybe people right now are saying, you really think there's any ties with Epstein and Trump?

• 59:51Speaker 04

  Well, I, well, there are clearly ties with Epstein and Trump. I mean, the idea that that is-

• 59:57Patrick Bet-David?

  But anything nefarious, nefarious?

• 59:59Speaker 04

  No, no far as well, I, I, it's how you define, I don't know. This is what I know. I won't even try to define. That, that they were friends for well more than a decade, almost, almost 15 years. They were interested, both of them were interested primarily in, in the two things they were interested in were women, girls, and money, get rich quick, money stuff.

• 1:00:28Speaker 04

  And, and the girls, women, girls, they were interested in, obsessively so, fetishistically in a way, were models. And remember, this was the age of the model. Supermodels, runway models, catalog models, Eastern European models, and a wide population of girls who just dreamed of being models. That's what, that's what they saw as status. That was the thing that turned them on, I suppose. You know, Trump's interest in beauty pageants, Epstein with, with Victoria's Secret girls. That's what they were in constant pursuit of.

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  And, and then people say to me, but you don't mean to say that, that Donald Trump was interested in little girls? And I, and I say, I, I, listen, I, all, what I know is they were interested in models. How old are models? Models in, certainly at that point in time, were anywhere from, you know, I don't know, 14 to 20, basically.

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

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• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Stonefire naan is made with real buttermilk and ghee. It's the perfect flatbread for any occasion.

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• 1:02:22Speaker 02

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• 1:02:25Speaker 03

  Dance for it, feeble mortal.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  Sorry, is he talking to me or...

• 1:02:29Speaker 03

  Dance.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  From our tradition to yours, Stonefire.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Together, we naan.

• 1:02:37Patrick Bet-David?

  When I hear models, I don't think 14 to 20, I think, you know, 18 to 20.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  Well, then you would be incorrect in that, because that's what they were.

• 1:02:46Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, no, I'm sure there's young models there, I'm sure there's, and that's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, you know, it's easy to, the gossip intel, when they flirt with each other, right? So that leads to accusations, and then everyone's writing about it, and the next thing you know... Like the story, you know, the story I read about Princess Diana, you know, the competition between the two? Did you share that story, or was that story shared by somebody?

• 1:03:11Speaker 04

  I did.

• 1:03:12Patrick Bet-David?

  Would you mind sharing that story?

• 1:03:14Speaker 04

  Well, that was just a kind of, you know, they were deeply interested in the royal family, both of them. And why were they interested in the royal family? Because the royal family was a great social climbing vector. You remember, Donald Trump, both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are always trying to raise money. Where do we get money from? And, you know, Donald Trump, by that point, had gone through several bankruptcies. I mean, nobody at this point is blue chip. So how do you raise money, fairly large sums of money? Well, you raise money by knowing people who can give you access to money. How do you know those people?

• 1:03:56Speaker 04

  Well, there are lots of ways, lots of social climbing ways, but one of them, the best ways, is to know someone in the royal family. So it was both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein became in hot pursuit of access to the royal family.

• 1:04:16Speaker 04

  Most successfully with Prince Andrew, but at one point then they had this competition and it was, you know, this was, this, I don't know how serious this was or how it was just to amuse them about who would be the first one to sleep with Diana. This was after the marriage to Charles had basically broken up.

• 1:04:38Patrick Bet-David?

  Did anybody win?

• 1:04:41Speaker 04

  That I don't know.

• 1:04:43Patrick Bet-David?

  I don't know if Jeffrey told you this, but Michael, I, I, we're at the time of one hour. I want to respect your time and the calendar and schedule you gave me. I, I appreciate the time. I know it's not often you get on podcasts that are maybe not mainstream or somebody that could be a potentially seen as the complete opposite side. So I appreciate you for making the time and.

• 1:05:04Speaker 04

  Delighted because I am, listen, many of the, most of the people I seem to spend my time with are actually, are actually Trump, Trump people who I have over 10 years, which is why I'm so well sourced, become very friendly with them. I, I, I like Trump people.

• 1:05:22Patrick Bet-David?

  Very cool.

• 1:05:23Speaker 04

  I don't like Trump, but I like Trump people.

• 1:05:26Patrick Bet-David?

  But you have good times with Trump. So I don't know what happened there between the two of you guys. It sounds like you enjoy his time. You just maybe not like his policies.

• 1:05:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, no, I always find, I mean, I mean, spending time with, with, with, with, with Trump is always certainly fascinating.

• 1:05:43Patrick Bet-David?

  Makes sense. Uh, Michael, till next time. Thank you so much for your time. We're going to put the link to all your books below as well. For those who want to go pick up the books. Thank you again. Take care. Bye bye.

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  Bye bye.

• 1:05:53Patrick Bet-David?

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• 1:07:10Speaker 07

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• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  Stonefire Naan is made with real buttermilk and ghee. It's the perfect flatbread for any occasion.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  I put out Stonefire Naan with dips at every dinner party.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  I make naan grilled cheese when my daughter has friends over.

• 1:07:48Speaker 03

  I use Stonefire Naan to reward the humans who do my bidding.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Right. It's perfect for camping trips.

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  Dance for it, feeble mortal.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  Sorry, is he talking to me or?

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  Dance. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  From our tradition to yours, Stonefire.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  Together we Naan.