Ex-Anthropic Whistleblower Suspects Chinese Spies Inside America’s AI Labs

Former OpenAI and Anthropic researcher Jacob Coxon explains why he quit the AI race, why he believes 2027 could be a turning point, how Anthropic differs from OpenAI, and why self-improving AI could upend jobs, national security, markets, and who ultimately controls global power in the years ahead. ⠀ ⠀ 👞 Get the NEW Billionaire Suede Loafer: https://bit.ly/4ym5oRA ⠀ 🍫 Get The FLB 1's NOW IN CHOCOLATE: https://bit.ly/4gXlv0X ⠀ 👕 SHOP THE ICON COLLECTION: https://bit.ly/3TuUU3x ⠀ Ⓜ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: https://bit.ly/4kSVkso ⠀ Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP ⠀ 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 ⠀ 🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj ⠀ 🇰 KALSHI: http://kalshi.com/pbd ⠀ ⠀ SUBSCRIBE TO: ⠀ @VALUETAINMENT @BetDavidConsulting @vtgenz @ValuetainmentComedy ⠀ ⠀ ABOUT US: ⠀ Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Whoever controls AI comes a god.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  I will destroy humans.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  This tech is powerful tech. And I'm just very surprised that Trump can sit there and say, I'm gonna let Dario Amade. I'm gonna let Sam Altman have the keys to this powerful tech. I just think they haven't fully internalized how crazy it will get if we don't slow down.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  Do you believe China is not gonna work on superintelligence and they're gonna listen to us?

• 0:19Speaker 00

  If you appreciate that the tech is scary and it's gonna feel scary for the people building it, I think China will also realize that.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  How certain are you they have spies already there?

• 0:29Speaker 00

  They're not vetting for something that could be a super weapon technology. It's just crazy. It's like it's happening right under the noses of the government.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  You met people that you think they could be?

• 0:37Speaker 00

  You know, again, I really, I don't wanna call their names. I haven't thought about that detail.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Forget about giving names. I'll find out.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  They hated me. They hated me because I was like, for good or for bad, feels like the end of the world. I was part of something that was gonna go badly and I became convinced that really there was no good plan. If we could slow down AI and speed up everything else, like deregulate drugs, deregulate biology research, deregulate like human self experimentation, I think a lot of stuff, it's just AI in particular that's the thing that's scary.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  So in four years, if Dario wanted to destroy OpenAI, he could.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  I think 2027 is gonna be a crazy year.

• 1:16Speaker 02

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• 1:58Speaker 02

  So on September eighth, a Jacob Coxon, who's here with us, good to have you on the podcast.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Nice to be here.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  You decide to put on a tweet, okay? You had started your account January of 2026. You hadn't put nothing up at all. Your first tweet says, I resigned from Anthropic today. I spent the last three years doing pre-training research at both OpenAI and Anthropic. Neither company is acting responsibly. They are racing straight to self-improving superintelligence and gambling with our lives. More thoughts, but we'll get into that later on. And this tweet gets eight hundred and three thousand likes, a hundred and seventy-five million views. There was a meeting yesterday at the White House prompted by you indirectly. You got politicians that got involved, world leaders that got involved. A meeting that happened with G that was here last week, one of the topics of discussion was how powerful

• 2:47Speaker 02

  AI is going to be. And the funny part that I think is important for the audience to realize this, and you can fact check me on this, that you let all your stocks go, that you weren't even able to vest your stocks because of the timing that you had, which means any money on the stocks that you also had was left behind for you, if that's correct, right? There was no, the options didn't move on with you.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Not at Anthropic.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Not at Anthropic. At OpenAI, you were there.

• 3:11Speaker 00

  I have OpenAI.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  So, so you did all of that and the world kinda stopped for a few days. Till today, they're still talking about it. What did you see that got you to say, I have to do this?

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it really was just thinking about next year. Next year and the year after, I think 2027 is gonna be a crazy year. And I think, think about the news headlines, like so, last year, AI a bit in the news. Three years ago, it was very rarely in the news, maybe for ChatGPT, but otherwise, no. This year, it's bam bam bam, AI, every month, there's a big AI story. Next year, it's gonna be like, every day, there's gonna be a big AI story. In particular, just imagine, I don't know, I wasn't alive during World War II, but during World War II, I imagined that just the concept of war was coloring everything. It was in the background for every day-to-day thing, like every news story, war would be in the background. I think it will be like that for AI next year.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  In terms of what I specifically saw, it is the models, the AI models next year are going to be very capable in a way where they're gonna be able to automate a lot of, a lot of work, a lot of everyone's jobs, but kind of most importantly, a lot of the AI researchers' jobs. So things are just gonna speed up so much that it's gonna become a very, very serious thing next year, probably.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  So 2027 for you is what's gonna be, is it worth you is chaotic?

• 4:33Speaker 00

  Chaotic, definitely, yes.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  So unpack it for me, like, for the average person listening to this, what does that look like?

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's many different things that could happen. Things that, kind of the most important thing is right now, labs are treating this, like the companies are treating this like it's a normal technology. You know, this is business. They have, maybe you saw OpenAI kind of, they have these dev days, they share their products with users. They're still tweeting like, oh, excited to release this new product. Thing is, this is a super weapon. So soon, people are gonna have to realize that this is not like a casual business thing. This is like a, a super weapon technology that really should be nationalized. And I think next year is kind of probably when that realization really sets in that, that this is very, very serious stuff.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  You're saying it should be nationalized. So if it's seriously that concerning.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Uh, when you say nationalized, you trust the government getting involved to control this then free market?

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not saying, I'm not saying I need nationalization. I'm saying that it is so serious that I'm surprised the government isn't nationalizing. Like, the government is looking at these companies, they're gonna have power. This tech is, is powerful tech. And I'm just very surprised that Trump can sit there and say, I'm gonna let Dario Amade, I'm gonna let Sam Altman have the keys to this powerful tech. Because normally, it's the government that has the keys to this stuff. You wouldn't let, you wouldn't let Mark Zuckerberg have nukes. That's just not a thing that normally happens.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Make the comparable of the two, nukes and this.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  So nukes cause world chaos, obviously, like plausibly. Same thing for AI. It's gonna be, do you really want a private company to make decisions about unemployment rate? You know, big stuff, potentially. If they make a mistake, someone in a, you know, some regime somewhere could produce a bioweapon. Like, that's a, that's a mess up. Do you want private companies to be in control of all these decisions? Like, to give an example, if you're Anthropic and you're training an AI and you're going to share it with the world, one of the things they worry about is what if China can steal from this? And that's a private company worrying about geopolitics, which is a weird, a weird thing, like for a, for a private company to make decisions that affect the whole,

• 6:48Speaker 00

  like the whole geopolitical situation.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, but some companies become so big that you become a small country.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Like, you have to realize, Zuck is a world leader.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Of 2.4 billion people.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Called Facebook. And he's got regulations he deals with, with the government and whatever countries he's in. He has to buy by those rules and guidelines. That's why he's always in lawsuits because they broke some of the guidelines, right? So same with Twitter, same with Google, same with YouTube, same with all these guys. So they almost have to be because they're dealing with those types of people, right?

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  So, so, but what I wanna know from you is, as, as we're going through this, because some of this to me is, you know, I, I wonder if it's fear porn where they're just using to scare a regular person watching this. I, I wrote it down. I said, I think this is how I see it. I just kind of wanna share with you on how I see the fear porn side of this. So one part of the fear porn is, hey, this is so scary, AI is gonna take over the world, we need the government to control. Okay, that's one. Okay, people are using this because they want control, they want the government to control. Number two, hey, this is so big and powerful and, and we need government control because I'm Anthropic and OpenAI, I'm eliminating my other companies to come and compete with me. So the barrier to entry becomes more difficult and I get to control.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  So the motive there becomes eliminating future competition. Pretty good move if they're thinking that way, right?

• 8:09Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  The third level of fear porn is,

• 8:13Speaker 02

  well, let me tell you, this thing is so powerful because we're about to go public. As big as we thought this, this is so much more powerful than us. You may wanna invest some of your money in there because when we go public, you may 10x, 20x, 30x your money.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  So the public IPO goes just massive, right? So those are three elements of the fear porn that I see. Then the other one is, maybe it is as scary as you say it is. The other one is if we don't build it, China builds it. You know, and last but not least, if we all stop, how can somebody hold an independent person or China to build this? So of those, if you can one by one by one, address which one you think it is.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, so to go to the original fear porn stuff, especially about the regulation control, um, or Anthropic hyping up their product. I think part of the reason my tweet went so viral is many people at Anthropic said the same thing, but they didn't just quit. You know, they stayed there, so it's easier to be like, okay, he's staying at the company. He's saying this stuff, but he's just hyping the product. I left in a personal capacity because I am scared. So from my perspective, I have nothing to gain by, by hyping up Anthropic. That's not a, I'm not trying to hype them up or get them like special criteria. I think what they're doing is dangerous. I think it's reckless.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  I think they should be curtailed and I left to say that. So that's to address the like regulatory capture stuff. Also, later, we could go into, um, why I don't think it's actually like, it doesn't actually make sense to stoke up this level of fear. I think it's gonna hurt their IPO. I think it's gonna hurt their ability to stay in control. We can talk about that later.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Um, what was the other point? China, yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, the China point is, is difficult. But I think again, if you, if you appreciate that the tech is scary and it's gonna feel scary for the people building it, I think China will also realize that. The people building the technology in China will see how destabilizing it is. And I just don't think that that regime wants to create a destabilizing technology that could threaten their own power. I think actually our incentives are aligned, like we're, we're more similar to, to China in this respect. So it should be quite easy to cooperate.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Well, if you look at the advancement, the separation between us and China, one could say the motivation,

• 10:25Speaker 02

  the motivation, hang on one second, I'm gonna show you one data.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  And China. So motivation for China could be US has such a massive lead in AI. We need them to slow down so we can catch up.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  There's no way in the world that China is going to sit there and say, oh, yeah, yeah. President Trump, for sure. We're going to shut it down and we're not going to work on it.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Uh, okay, great. Can we come and look at your place to make sure you are actually keeping your promises? No, no, just take our word for it. We are not working on super intelligence.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Do you believe China is not going to work on super intelligence and they're going to listen to us?

• 10:59Speaker 00

  It depends on the nature of a deal. Right now, if we just stopped, they would try and catch up. But I think one really important thing people don't realize is China already has spies at OpenAI, at Anthropic. China has the ability to hack at any time. If we pull ahead, that doesn't give us a big lead. They can just step in and steal our progress at any time.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  You think?

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Catch up the lead.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  How certain are you they have spies already there?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Ninety percent. Yeah, definitely. It's almost certain that they have, they have.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Do people talk about that at OpenAI?

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, they do. People have spoken about this.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Is it kind of like joking like, hey, we probably have some Chinese?

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like a joking thing because you don't take it seriously, but then it is a, it is a serious thing. There must be spies. There is no.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Have you met people that you think they could be?

• 11:39Speaker 00

  No, I think, um, obviously it's, I don't want to like stereotype people based on like, are they like Chinese nationals?

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  But, so I wouldn't say any specific person, but there must be spies. There's no, um, background check, like serious background check for this sort of stuff. Yeah. It's not like a, this is another reason why nationalization is so important. We can start properly vetting and background checking. So it's like, like, like, I don't think SpaceX can hire Chinese nationals, but these AI companies can, can hire, you know, foreign nationals like me, which is pretty surprising.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Why is that? What's the difference? Because SpaceX has some regulatory?

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a regulation. Yeah, so they can't.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  So they cannot recruit Chinese nationals with OpenAI and Anthropic can?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  So do you think one step could be to not allow Chinese nationals to work for Anthropic and OpenAI?

• 12:21Speaker 00

  It's a bit sad because they're my friends, but I think that will happen. I think that will probably happen.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Are you saying will or do you think that's the right move?

• 12:27Speaker 00

  I think both.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Okay, so it's uncomfortable for you to say that. I applaud that. I, I respect that, but you at least, that shows me there is, uh, um, there is integrity in your belief system that your friends are going to see this. They're going to say, hey, Jacob, what are you saying? We're friends. But you think, okay, so, so you think if we continue to China almost, they're like, yeah, continue because we have access to everything you're doing anyways.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  So if we continue, they're going to have access to it. If we don't continue, China is going to create it themselves. So either way, China is eventually going to have access to it.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  I think so, unless again, there's some sort of deal. One thing is, uh, a lot of their progress right now, not all of it, but a substantial part of it is distillation, which is sort of stealing the data. So they use Claude, they log in, they ask it questions, and they use the answers to train Chinese models. So right now, a lot of their speed is kind of copying the US and stealing from the US. So also, if we slow down, it will probably slow down China quite a bit too, because currently a lot of their progress is from essentially copying or stealing US work. Not all of it. They're still, they will still catch up and make progress, but there is a component. So like, uh, they will also slow down if the US slows down.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Who, who else is another player out there that people worry about? Because it seems like it's mainly them to maybe UK a little bit, right?

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Not the UK at all, sadly. That's why I'm, that's why I'm in the US. It's very sad, but the UK just hasn't.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Who would you put third?

• 13:52Speaker 00

  I'm actually not sure who's got the, the data center built there. Right now, US and China are just so far ahead that no one is, no one's going to catch up right now.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Okay, so go a little bit deeper into the, uh, the Chinese spy, uh, part. Uh, you said it is a discussion that people have in those organizations. So what, what would that look like? If the average person wants to know, all right, what would that look like on how they pass their messages or information over to them? Is it, can you do me a favor and can you type in who the highest ranking executives at OpenAI or Anthropic that are Chinese nationals? Highest ranking executives at OpenAI or Anthropic that are Chinese nationals? Have you looked at the inventory to see how many of them are Chinese nationals?

• 14:39Speaker 00

  Um, I don't think there are many that are that high up that are Chinese nationals. Again, I really, I'm like, this does make me sad. I'm not trying to like, start a witch hunt. I'm just saying objectively, there are probably spies and I think that, yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Okay, so let's go over this. So Chief Research Officer at OpenAI, Mark Chen.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's not a Chinese national.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  He's not a Chinese national. You know who he is.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Um.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  It says Chinese born?

• 15:00Speaker 00

  He's a Asian American. Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  So he would, but he was born in China?

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just, I don't think Mark Chen is a Chinese spy.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Okay, all right. And you met him? You've, you've, uh?

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've met him a few times. Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Okay. So, uh, Fiji, Simo.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  I don't think he's a Chinese spy. I don't know.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Brad Lightcaps, so Dario, okay, we know that.

• 15:21Speaker 00

  No, I think we are clear on these guys. Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  You are clear on all these names?

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, these guys.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Who are the highest rank? Are there any high ranking people that could be Chinese nationals or you don't know any names?

• 15:29Speaker 00

  You know, again, I really, I don't want to call out names. I haven't thought about that detail. Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  I don't, I'm not asking you to give names.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  I want to ask you, forget about giving names. I'll find out.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  What I'm trying to find out from you is because the audience is going to go do their own research, right?

• 15:41Speaker 00

  I think, yeah, almost all the Chinese nationals are like employees. So not like executives, not high level managers. They will be like employees doing coding, doing engineering, doing research. Yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, if we pull up, I, I went to an insurance company once in Dallas and I went on their seventh floor. The, the seventh floor was all the engineers that they had.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  If I told you 98% was Indian, I, I never met anybody that was an Indian. Everybody was Indian and they had a lot of their guys that came from, uh, what is that institute from India? IIT Institute, which IIT Institute is like a, some people even say it's better than MIT Institute. So you saw that and one could say, okay, they're in here in the business. But when you're saying Chinese nationals, India doesn't necessarily have the same motive that China has. One in America wouldn't say China's an enemy, you know, India's an enemy as much as they would say China's the enemy, right? So if you're saying they, they already have Chinese nationals in there, that's probably a pretty big concern there.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  And I think what it is, is it's, it's representative. Remember, remember, remember I said, uh, they're not taking this seriously?

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  It's like it's a normal business.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Like, yeah, there's an absolute minimum background checks for employees seem important. I, I, I think they will come, but if they're not vetting for something that could be a super weapon technology, it's just crazy. It's like cowboy, cowboy stuff. It's, I'm surprised it's happening right under the noses of the government. It's ridiculous.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  By the way, that's a very valid point. Who else do you think they need to be vetting and not allowing to work at companies like that?

• 17:13Speaker 00

  So I don't know the exact details, but you know, plausibly even, I'm a foreign national, so I'm from the UK. I think it's important, a lot of the researchers come from the UK. I do think careful background checks are necessary.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  What are you looking for?

• 17:26Speaker 00

  In particular, I guess, you know, no, no compromise, whatever the, whatever the current like, uh, clearance background checks are, you should probably need that to work on core AI systems and I, I think that will happen.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  But I mean, even if you're doing that, what am I looking for? What would I find anyways? Nowadays, people are professionals that hiding whatever they did in the past.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  I know.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  It's not even, uh, for me to be able to find everything about that individual.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  It, it's.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  So I'm not, again, I'm not an expert on like the details. What I think is like,

• 17:55Speaker 00

  they need to take it more seriously.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  At a bare minimum. Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Fair enough. So that, that part, that part is, uh, uh, made clear. We got that. What, what do you say to the people that say, you know, David Sacks, some of these other folks came out, very reputable people, respect these folks. And you saw Marc Andreessen came up and he wrote his, uh, humanity manifesto with AI and saying, hey, this is a, a let free market do its part. This is a beautiful thing. He believes, you know, we can handle 50 billion people living in the world, you know, and we have bandwidth and this is going to make people more financially free. It's not that scary. Some of those guys said, this is purely used by Anthropic and OpenAI to eliminate future competitors.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  And own bigger market shares. And they're like, yeah, Bernie, come help us out. Come prevent other people from competing with us. What do you say to that?

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a few things. One is, I think I agree with Marc Andreessen and David Sacks about the positive benefits. What I think, where I think we differ is their case. I think we get their world if we slow down. I think even if we slow down AI development, the, the changes from next year's technology will be so rapid and, you know, significant, that there'll be huge changes in the way that they're thinking. I just think they haven't fully internalized how crazy it will get if we don't slow down. I think their case for their optimistic fast case is my slow case. And my fast case looks like we have no control over it. We're just watching rebels make themselves smarter, like

• 19:26Speaker 00

  every day massively. It's completely out of our control. It's not like 50 billion humans. It's humans and then this massive AI economy that's happening without, we're just sitting around watching them do inscrutable, you know, things we don't understand. And I think Marc Andreessen and David Sacks will agree with me when things get crazy because I think we want the same thing. That's, that's my guess.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  How, how many people, when you work at OpenAI and Anthropic, guys that are actually doing the work, not executives at the top? I'm talking to engineers, the mathematicians, the guys like you that are doing the work, the researchers that are doing the work. Uh, how many of them are in their twenties?

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Probably half or a bit less than half.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Okay, so that's a big number.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Big number.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  So just fresh out of college, right?

• 20:10Speaker 00

  In their twenties. Um, maybe more like 30%, 30, 40%.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  30%. And is it fair to say that that audience just got out of college? Not all of them, some of them, and maybe they're going to lean a little bit more on the liberal side. And maybe they're going to be a little bit more afraid of climate change, end of the world, professors, brainwashing them and, oh my God, you guys be careful with these capitalists. They're going to be such technocrats and technocracy and, you know, oh my, these, these trillionaires, Elon Musk is going to take over and do this. Don't you think they may have a little bit more fear, anxiety of the end of the world that's coming because they just got out of college?

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe. Um, I can say a few things here.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Please.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  One is, um, I think it's important that Elon Musk himself is scared about this. Like that he doesn't get scared of many things, right? He's a, you know, Titan, like the guy's an absolute, like, he just goes for stuff. He's been scared of AI for a long time. He only made XAI because he saw the other companies doing it. And was like, well, I guess if we're doing this, I have to join in because he's Elon Musk. He's not going to let these guys, you know, he's not going to sit on the sidelines. So it's, you know, big guys are scared too. And then in terms of junior employees, I mean, I can speak for myself. I like, I've never, you know, global warming has never been a big deal for me. It's like, I wanted to learn math. I wanted to work on technology. I'm, I wanted more nuclear power. I want like build out of energy infrastructure.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  I'm like pro, you know, I'm pro capitalism, pro libertarian almost.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  You're more libertarian.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  I think that's very important for you to qualify there because a lot of people were putting you as a climate.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  I know, and it's because everyone agreed with me was a Democrat. I made a post, I didn't ask these Democrats, like Democrat politicians to agree with my post, right? I didn't tell them to tweet that. So I think I've been like pegged as this NGO kind of dude. Really, the one thing I'm scared about is AI. I'm like, if we could slow down AI and speed up everything else, like deregulate drugs, deregulate biology research, deregulate like, you know, human self experimentation. I think a lot of stuff, I'm pro libertarian. It's just AI in particular that's the thing that's scary.

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• 23:12Speaker 06

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• 23:39Speaker 02

  Huh, so, so would you say most of the guys and gals your age working at OpenAI and Anthropic feel the same way you do?

• 23:49Speaker 00

  There's a mix. I think I'm probably more on the like libertarian side. I think some will be scared of climate change, some will have been. I also thought, for example, the pandemic response ultimately was quite overblown, like near the end. I think that like, it was pretty bad. But I think maybe some would disagree. So there are definitely some employees like that, but it's not all of them. It's not as like, I think people imagine San Francisco as being full of liberals. But if you're going to accuse like me and the other kind of like kids building the technology of anything, it would be like a sort of maybe narcissism or techno narcissism, feeling like you're the center of the world, but not like a generic liberal fear. That's not like the main thing that's happening.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm glad you, you, you, you addressed that and you isolated that case because I noticed a lot of information came up that you were with Newspeak, you know, where you were part of this organization that Hillary Clinton, Clinton was a part of and a man named Matt something and, you know, and it's the NGOs and you're involved in that.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  This is so funny. It's like, this is so funny because at that house, it was a house I lived at. I wanted to like live in London and I met a friend who was like, come stay at this house. And it was a house full of these people. They hated me. They hated me because I was like, they're all communists. I'm like, there were communists in that house and I did not get on with them. It was just so funny now because like I'm on this like thing and everyone's like Jacob stayed at this. I wanted to do math. I wanted to like live in an interesting place with London, in London. That's why I stayed at, stayed in Newspeak.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Nothing, you'd never met, you've, you've never had meetings with these guys? You've never met with the socialist leaders?

• 25:18Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Clinton Sanders, these guys didn't communicate with you and nothing?

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Never, no.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  So even before you tweeted your tweet out, I know Brett asked you this question as well, but did you speak with anybody? Was it orchestrated that this tweet's about to come out? Because you started your account in January of 2026.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  So prior to that, for a young guy to not have a Twitter account, it's kind of weird.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Well, why'd you start, why didn't you start it early? Why'd you start in January and then eight months?

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, so a few things. One is I'm actually like, kind of ironically, I've been quite scared of posting online, sharing my thoughts. I think because I had this assumption that, you know, that my people might pile on or it's like, you know, I don't like engaging with the immediate criticism of the thoughts. I prefer to like discuss them in private with the people that can make changes. So this was kind of the first time I've ever expressed myself publicly. And that's one of the reasons why I was so crazy is like, I always had this fear that if I, if I posted, everyone would pile on. And that is exactly what happened, which is quite funny, although it wasn't as bad as I thought.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Do you regret the tweet or you're glad you tweeted?

• 26:22Speaker 00

  I'm glad I tweeted.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  You're glad you tweeted it.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  And I'm happy to talk more about the, um, the coordination because there was some planning. This wasn't just, I didn't just like quit and then type out this tweet and rage quit. There were a few steps to it.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Can you, can you walk us through?

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course. So when I decided to quit, um, first I was on, I was making the model, the AI smarter, right? And then I switched to safety for a week. I was like, well, I'm really scared of how things are going. I'll move to the safety side, try and make it safe. And then while I was at safety, I spoke to more of the anthropic leadership. I spoke to more of the safety researchers and I became convinced that really there was no good plan. I was part of something that was going to go badly. So I was like, I'm going to quit. And then I was thinking about quitting on the same day. But I don't know, do you remember Leopold, Leopold Ashenbrenner?

• 27:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely. 436% the first six months and you know, yes, I do.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's a dude and he left OpenAI and then he wrote this manifesto, situational awareness.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  So he was strategic when he left. He was like, I'm not just going to leave OpenAI. I'm going to like use leaving to make, because he was, he was fired for like leaking confidential information or whatever. He used it to like spread awareness. Like a lot of people in government read his manifesto, a lot of people, maybe you read some of situational awareness, so obviously, yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that was. He really, he grew to, to what 45 billion dollars?

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, he read a massive.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Griffin came and bought.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  A chunk of it at a discounted price and you know, yeah, I, I, I followed the story closely.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  So here we go, yeah, exactly. This, um, this manifesto and he wrote that when he left and I thought, well, you've got to be strategic when you leave. I'm not just going to, I do want to express myself. I'm going to like be strategic, make my voice heard, have an impact. I did not expect it to be this. I thought it would be a lot smaller than Leopold's. I was just going to do my best. But I got a, I got a connect at Wall Street Journal. I was like, I'm going to make a, you know, Wall Street Journal will publish this. I think you can probably find the article, yeah, this. So, um, over starters, I also, I delayed my, I delayed my quitting by a week to have time to prepare for this. So it wasn't just the same day. I was like, I'm going to prepare, I'm going to write my thoughts properly. I'm going to quit, um, spoke to the Wall Street Journal. I wrote this Twitter thread.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  But, uh, to be clear, I think people imagine this crazy coordinated psyop and I had, I had some help, but I wasn't being, like, the people were telling me stuff like, um, I say people, this is, you know, my friends were telling me stuff like, um, include a picture in your tweet because then it will go viral. They said, you know, tweets go viral if there's a picture. But I was like, I don't want to put a picture. It's a, it's a serious resignation tweet. I'm not going to like put a picture. I got a few friends to retweet it. Yeah, it goes to the actual, actual details.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  You had some very high, you know, it, it was, it, it seemed, it was some very influential people tweeted it fairly quickly the moment.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  So they're pretty influential. These guys are, so it was people like, um, Nathan Calvin and Snare, Snare Revenant. They're this organization called ENCODE, ENCODE AI.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Within the space, they're influential.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, within the space, they're definitely influential.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  They're definitely influential. The average person may not know who they are, but within your space.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  They're very influential, yeah.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  And they're also friends with many of us. Like I'm friends with Snare, you know, we've been hanging out before this resignation. There's like, she's friends with a lot of lab employees. It's also, yeah, it's not crazy that when I, when I wanted to leave. So the journalist was interested because this was the first ever anthropic safety resignation to go kind of big in public. There've been a few, but they were small. This was a big one. And obviously the people that are most interested in like helping spread the message are people who are. You know, who want to slow down AI.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  So who else were the people that was was anybody that played a role in your writing that did any politician know you were going to tweet that?

• 29:55Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  So nothing political?

• 29:56Speaker 00

  Nothing political.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Are all these people that are friends that are friends that are working at Anthropic and OpenAI or outside of Anthropic OpenAI?

• 30:02Speaker 00

  They were all outside of Anthropic and OpenAI, yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  None of them are working at the company?

• 30:05Speaker 00

  No.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  So no one at the company knew you were about to resign?

• 30:08Speaker 00

  They knew I was gonna leave. They did not know I was going to, uh, like, make such a bold Twitter thread.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  And how was that conversation that they know you were gonna leave? Were you like, guys, I can't do this anymore. I'm gonna be out in a few weeks. Was it kind of like sharing your frustration?

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Exactly. I was talking, but I think you have to remember about, um, Anthropic is such a weird place. Like, these guys are scared of what they're building in a way that I think repulses people when they see it. They're like, this is weird. Why, why are these guys building it and they're so scared? But it's real. They're really scared. So honestly, what happened is I said to my, you know, I said to the head of, head of pre-training, I said, I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna quit. I think this is going too fast. I think it's reckless. I think we're not gonna get international coordination.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  You're saying this to who?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  To the head of, um, this is the head of, like, the whole of the pre-training organization, which is quite a big organization.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Is that, is that a heavyweight person within the company?

• 31:00Speaker 00

  Heavyweight, yep.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  So somebody that works directly with Dario?

• 31:03Speaker 00

  Exactly. Someone that would speak to Dario a lot.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  And so you're telling them this?

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm telling him this. I'm telling him it's reckless.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  And what's he, is this a public name or?

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, Nick Joseph, he's called.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Okay. So you're telling him this and, and what's his reaction to you?

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, so his reaction is composed because he's dealing with these worries the whole time. He's, he tells me, I think this is a bad decision. I think you will have more impact if you stay and work from the inside. And he said, you're not gonna be able to, it's unlikely you'll be able to change people's opinions on the outside. I mean, what he said something was like, do you want to go from being a, you know, like a, a good AI technical researcher to being just a run-of-the-mill commentator? He said, it seems like a bad strategic decision.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  This sounds like a good guy.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  It's a good guy, yeah.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  This is not a bad guy. This is a good guy.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  This is a great guy.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  So he's trying to give you career advice?

• 31:52Speaker 00

  Career advice.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Okay. And, and what got you to say, I disagree, I'm gonna leave and I think I can make the impact?

• 31:57Speaker 00

  And I said, well, I didn't say that. What I said is, you're probably right. It sounded like he was right. I just didn't want to be part of it anymore. I thought, when I left, it was an expression of resignation, of kind of disempowerment. I thought, I don't want to be part of this race. I'm gonna leave, do something else. It might actually be worse. It wasn't really a rational decision. It was pretty emotional.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  God, and these, these other friends of yours that you're talking to about the tweet, uh, are these players that are running things and they're, they're heavyweights or, or some of them within the space of AI, but maybe they're not known names?

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's, there are a few players and then just a few friends. And it's so funny. Again, people imagine this as being a, I think because of how crazy it went, they think it must have been this very careful thing. Really, I had a few. I had maybe three or four core names to do the, the retweeting initially. And then after I sent it, right, I sent it, and then I sent the link to a few friends and said, post this in your group chats, share this in your, in your group chats, like, spread it around. But honestly, by the time, like, I sent it to one guy, and he was like, okay, I'll share it. Let me write a careful quote tweet about it. Um, let, let me, let me, like, carefully write a, write a quote tweet. And by the time he'd finished writing the quote tweet, it had already gone to, like, 20K likes. Like, it had already exploded. So the whole thing just went so, so crazy. Uh, and it, like, this can't be planned, right?

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Like, imagine if, there's no PR firm that can make, that can, like, hack the algorithm like this.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and when you did this, uh, uh, who was it from Anthropic Research or somebody supported with, Anne, Anne Wang, right, is who it was?

• 33:32Speaker 00

  I think Evan, Evan Hubinga was the main.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Evan Hubinga was one of them?

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  That he, he, uh, what did he say that he agree with you? He's?

• 33:40Speaker 00

  He said, he thought everything I said was correct. Cause what I, what I said is I didn't actually say my own opinion mostly. Mostly I said, other people at the company believe it and continue to work there. If we scroll, it's like, it's a tweet three, maybe. I said, the people building this technology honestly believe it could kill us all. And he backed me up. He said, this is correct. I do believe that this technology could kill us all.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  They ran an analysis of all the replies, uh, of who agreed, who disagreed. Forty-three percent agreed, forty percent disagreed, eighteen percent were mixed.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  And so i- i- it wasn't like people weren't agreeing with you. They were agreeing with you. I even think Elon retweeted and says, uh, I agree with this. I said this a long time ago. Something like that, I think Elon said.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  And he has. He's always said that.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Did he reach out to you? Have you spoken to him?

• 34:27Speaker 00

  Um, I mean, not like, not a, not, not a length, no. Um, he's a, he's clearly been thinking about this for a really long time. That's the main.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  So you guys did have a conversation together?

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, we had a chat, yeah.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Okay. This is after your tweet?

• 34:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, after my tweet.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Was it a, was it a phone call? Was it a, a conversation or is it a face-to-face?

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Just a DM, just a DM.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Okay, so he just DM'd you and, hey, you know, I agree with you, you know?

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Oh, I, I DM'd him.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Okay, and then he responded back to you?

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, just a little response. And mostly I was saying, like, he, I just DM'd him saying, you know, cause maybe we saw he had a little spat on Twitter. He, like, said I was maybe a psyop.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  And I thought I'm gonna try and, like, cause I think he's been thinking about this for, like, so long.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  Did he explain to you why he said this could be a psyop?

• 35:12Speaker 00

  It wasn't, no, not that much detail, no.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  What do you think he meant by this could be a psyop?

• 35:16Speaker 00

  With the original thing? I think it was quite suspicious that an account with no, uh, with no followers.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Could blow up that much.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Could blow up that much.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  The reality of it is, he owns that, so he can find out exactly if they were bot-driven or not.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  Exactly, and they weren't. So it was just like an organic explosion based on the fact that it was scary. Yeah, this is this. I kind of regret this tweet. It was pretty stupid, but then again, I had no sleep and I was very annoyed that, I thought Elon was kind of on the side of this. So it upset me quite a lot.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Did he say he agrees and then he said psyop? It's like, i- i- it almost, uh, uh, there was a fifty-fifty with them, right?

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this, I think he was just, um, when, when I say psyop, he just thought it was, the whole thing was quite suspicious. Like, the fact that I'd, you know, the communities I'd been in before, the fact that it went so viral, I can see why he thought it was suspicious.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  You got three hundred thousand followers within forty thousand.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  I know, it was not.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Absolutely insane.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, so now you brought up Leopold earlier.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Leopold got the sequencing right, got fired, story goes out, hey, here's my manifesto, you know, when he wrote down, we talked about it earlier, and in it, he says, it's not really such-and-such stocks that we have to worry about. We have to put our money into this and this, and it's the infrastructure that's gonna make a lot of money. And for the most part, he, he did well. You know, people made a lot of money. And then stories came out about how much of it was on margin and how much risk he was taking, four to one, two to one, three to one. But his outcome was, I'm gonna quit, I'm gonna write this paper, it's gonna go viral, I'm gonna start a firm, I'm gonna raise money. I think GitHub guys got involved at the beginning. You got some big names that got involved. What's, what's your financial next move? What's your financial benefit of doing this?

• 36:51Speaker 00

  There is no financial benefit. So Leopold, I think.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  So you have nothing new to launch in the next three to six months?

• 36:56Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna try and milk this. I'm not doing anything. Um, I'm going to, one way I will exploit the crazy temporary fame of the situation is through having, you know, conversations with lots of researchers I respect that previously would have made less time for me and now I can talk more about the situation. And there's work I intend to do. There's lots of work, but I'm not trying to make any more money from this.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  How much money did you leave on the table by doing this? Like?

• 37:21Speaker 00

  By leaving Anthropic.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  By leaving Anthropic?

• 37:23Speaker 00

  You know, I'm not gonna say the, the exact detail, but seven figures.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Seven figures?

• 37:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Okay. But, but let's go a little bit deeper. If you would have stayed five years and you would have done your part, you would have moved up potentially fifty million, a hundred million?

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Five years. That's the problem. So I'm thinking about that and it's like, it's not gonna be the same in five years. In five years, everything looks different.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  This is, and I think the people that are talking about, they, they have these sums of money and these, these plans for the future and they're just not thinking about how crazy it's gonna get.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  To you, to you, one, you're not a socialist leftist, that you belong to this NGO, that you're a pro Bernie Sanders, you're one, a capitalist, free market libertarian, you don't believe in the climate change is gonna end, the techno, you know, COVID handling wasn't right, you know, you thought it was a little bit too much. Okay, check. Let's set that aside. Number two, there is not a, I'm about to announce a hedge fund, private equity firm, and this is why our private equity focuses on AI regulation and da-da-da-da. You're not gonna launch anything like that. So how are you gonna make money? How are you making money, right?

• 38:21Speaker 00

  Luckily, I have this money from OpenAI, right? And I think I will get a job. I mean, I'm going to get a job doing some form of.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Within the space?

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Within the space. And I think the job will most likely be around predicting where AI will go, trying to share that writing with other people. And also, I really, like I said, it sounds crazy, it sounds cultish. Things are gonna change so much in the next few years. Unemployment's gonna be a problem when we release, when we can automate a lot of white-collar jobs. You know, I have enough money for a few years and I really don't know what the world looks like. Like, if I'm wrong, I can get a job in a few years. That'll be great. But I don't think I'm wrong.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Got it. So for you, if you're hedging of you being right or wrong, if you're right, you have money and you want to do something to make a difference the next twelve, twenty-four months?

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  It sounds like that's your timeline. You don't think five, you think five years is too late?

• 39:11Speaker 00

  I don't think, I don't necessarily that the really bad thing happens, but I think that the critical decisions, the crucial decisions about whether we slow down or not, they will happen in the next couple of years. Yep.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  If we're gonna slow down or not?

• 39:21Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  And you think the next two years, there's still time to slow down to prevent the madness?

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Why is it specifically two years?

• 39:29Speaker 00

  It's, if you look at the pace of the improvement, the specific technology that is scary is when it can automate its own development. So when the, the job of AI research gets automated. And I think all the extrapolation suggests that that could quite likely come in the next few years. This is the whole RSI thing, recursive self-improvement. I think roughly around that time is the crucial time where the race will start, where China will lock in, and it'll be China versus the US. Everyone will be taking it seriously. They'll be, like, fear. They won't, OpenAI and Anthropic won't be sharing the models with the public anymore. It will be internal, government-only, full-on race. That's when the crucial decisions happen. Like, whether we go into this race or not, I think that gets decided this decade.

• 40:42Speaker 06

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  You trust the government having this more than free market?

• 41:09Speaker 00

  I don't trust, you know, any specific person or entity. I just think right now the free market is not gonna handle it well.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  And that's why? Why do you think they're not gonna handle it?

• 41:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great question.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Is it motivation is gonna be what?

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Money?

• 41:24Speaker 00

  I think actually if I talk about my personal motivation, right? So there are people who, I thought this was dangerous for a really long time, right? Like before I even joined. And when I joined OpenAI, I thought it was dangerous.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  At what age did you think this was dangerous?

• 41:38Speaker 00

  15, 16.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  How old are you right now? 27?

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  So 15, 16?

• 41:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  So in 2015, you thought this was dangerous?

• 41:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, there was a book called Superintelligence by Nick Bostrom. It was quite influential.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  I read it in school.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  I think like, yeah, so this image of me having worked in AI and then suddenly got scared is wrong. I think I've always been scared. But then it's like, why do you join a lab in the first place? And there are other people who didn't join a lab, right? They were also scared. They maybe behaved more ethically. They didn't join.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  But then when they say this stuff, no one listens. Right? I joined the lab and I got all sorts of things that they didn't, you know, like money and status and some like respect for working there. And then I quit. And that's a selfish thing to do, to say, I'm gonna work at this technology and get the status from doing this, even though I think it's dangerous. But then it also gives you the power to make change. Does that make sense? Like this, you get power. And I think the same thing is like what Dario is doing. So, you know, Anthropic have been scared. And they said, well, no one's listening to us. We're gonna have to be a player, enter. And so Dario's worked, like they've worked so hard in the last, they've caught up to OpenAI. It's very impressive. Anthropic have worked like absolute dogs to like overtake and become the main player. And they did that because they're like, we need the power. And that's the free market, right?

• 42:57Speaker 00

  The free market incentivizes you to get your own power, your own wealth, so you can make change. The problem is, that's gonna keep happening. And people are gonna keep doing this. It's the story of OpenAI. OpenAI did that because they were scared of DeepMind. They were like, we're gonna do it. Dario did it. He was scared of OpenAI. He was like, I want the power. Even just like me, it's a small story, but why did I work and help? It's for my own power. And if we let the free market determine in the next few years, we're gonna race off a cliff because everyone is looking out for their own, their own money, their own power. No one has the ability to sort of slow down a few years ahead. It's this like race problem where everyone just like, and I don't blame them, right? I don't blame them. If you're a 22-year-old right now and you've done AI, I don't blame you if you get a job

• 43:42Speaker 00

  at Anthropic and work there. Because what else are you gonna do if you're like, how else are you gonna try and, try and help? So everyone is following their own incentives. And that's why we need, in this case, we need bigger regulation. Because, yeah, in any other technology, I'm happy with this. I think innovation, innovation from competition is great everywhere, except if the technology is this level of compounding risky. That's when it breaks.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  So 2015, 2016, you read the book, Superintelligence, and then you, at what age did you start working at OpenAI?

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Uh, 23.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  And what did you do prior to that? Because I knew you were a big math, maybe walk through who you were as a math phenom and how you came up?

• 44:19Speaker 00

  Sure. So I did math competitions in school. I was very into math. When I was a kid, I mostly just did math and read books. Then when I was in college, I guess.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  And you won, you did pretty well on two of the biggest competitions?

• 44:31Speaker 00

  I did the International Math Olympiad twice. Yep.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  And you were, you were second in one and third in one?

• 44:35Speaker 00

  No, no, no. Okay, so I think you misunderstood. I got a silver medal.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Silver medal, yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  Which doesn't, a lot of people get silver medals. It doesn't make you the second in the world. I wasn't anywhere near the best. I was in sort of a, I think silver medal is top. We can look it up. I think it's the top 20% or something. It's a, um.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  In, in the math arena?

• 44:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think the, the kind of achievement here is getting on the, on the national team because it's being selected for six people to do the team.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  See, answers like that you give tells me your integrity. You corrected me to say, you're not as smart as I thought you were.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  I mean, you realize that's.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  But also, I mean, the audience is watching.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  I understand that, but it's, but you know, say 99% don't check it. You just, you just did an integrity check on yourself and I respect that. I value that. I hope the audience does as well. But please continue. You're, you're a math guy.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Yep. And then I went to college and studied math. I kind of, I think I wanted to do math research, um, which was, you know, because I, yeah, I always loved math. But unfortunately, I think it was a mix of many things. I kind of realized that pure math research was not for me. It was partly related to AI. I saw that like AI was gonna be this big thing that was gonna eat a lot of stuff. Still felt quite far out. So I've been following it since, I don't know, 2020 was GPT-3. GPT-3 was this like quite big, this happened during the pandemic, which is also my, my third year of college. So I was sort of in the pandemic with a friend. We looked at the GPT-3 paper and we were like, yep, it's happening. This is a big deal. This is where things are going. But I didn't know how to break into AI.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  So I didn't actually like, I had no AI background. I studied math. Um, so I worked with a friend at a power trading startup. We did, we predicted energy prices, which is kind of, it was AI-related. We predicted the, the cost of power.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  I did that for a bit. Um, and then I took a, you know, I had, there were some personal issues and I took a break for about a year. I was kind of out of it and a little bit. I was living in Prague for a while and then Scotland. And then finally I got a call from a friend who was, Jacob, what are you doing? AI is taking over. You're like, you can do math, you can learn AI, come and join OpenAI's residency program. They have a program which is a six-month training program for people that are math guys or physics guys to teach them the ropes of AI and make them full-fledged researchers. So I sort of said, yeah, that sounds great. I'll, I'll do that. And that's when I joined.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  So you went in and then you got in at six months and then you were there for how long? Three years?

• 46:59Speaker 00

  Three years, yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Three years?

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Which is, yeah. I was like pretty junior, but for context, the company went from 300 people when I joined to about, you know, 7,000, 8,000 now, I think. So it was like a pretty explosive phase.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  And was, was Sam Altman pretty accessible when, when it was at 300? Like, were you around him a lot?

• 47:16Speaker 00

  He's around, yeah, you see him.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  You see him?

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  You've had conversations with him? Okay. And how different, did you get that same experience with Dario at Anthropic?

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Not in the same way, no.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Okay. So what is your opinion of what Sam Altman is doing versus what Dario is doing? How different are they?

• 47:31Speaker 00

  They're completely different. Um, yeah, I'm gonna, so I think Sam is, so Dario is very honest. I think that's the first, you can see, everyone can see that. He's very open and honest and shares a lot of stuff with everyone. I think he's like, he's always honest. Um, and he's obviously like an amazing researcher and I'm always impressed by what he's like accomplished building Anthropic. Uh, Sam is like, has a reputation for dishonesty. So Sam has a reputation for being a lot more of a business guy of sort of like pleasing one people, of always being quite vague. I think the main difference I noticed between Dario's communication and Sam's communication is Sam is very vague about the future.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  He says, things will be good in this way and maybe there'll be dangers, but we can muddle through, like a vague thing. Whereas Dario is like, 20% chance this happens, 80% chance this happens, this is what it looks like. And that's a lot more like rough to hear because it, it comes across as quite abrasive. It's like tough to hear the, the details. But Sam, it's like, it feels like he's making everyone promises and he could be saying vague stuff to everyone. Everyone feels kind of happy, but he's actually not really saying anything. That's kind of the main difference, I'd say, in terms of how they communicate with the, with the company.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  What, what do you think is the end-all, be-all for each one of them?

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. And again, this is armchair psychology. I'm not good friends with them. This is just from watching. I think Dario wants to save the world, as it were. He's got like a, he thinks he's the, him and his company are the ones to, to save everyone.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  I think Sam has a lot of motivations and it's quite messy and chaotic and that's reflected in how messy and chaotic the company is. But again, this is armchair speculation. I don't, um, yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  So if one is saved, the other one is controlled?

• 49:14Speaker 00

  To be clear, when Dario is saving the world, I think saving the world and taking over the world overlap quite heavily.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Like.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  You could flirt with that. You could have that temptation.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  If you think you're the safe one.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  And China's building it unsafe, or you think the US government's being silly and you have a very powerful technology, you know, it's not off the table to consider taking actions against the US government. And I think if anyone would do that, it's Anthropic.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  In the inside organizations, OpenAI and Anthropic, how different are the cultures?

• 49:42Speaker 00

  Very different.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Tell me more.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  So one thing is OpenAI may have changed. I left like four months ago and I think they've started taking stuff more seriously.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  So Anthropic has seven co-founders and none of them have left. They've all stayed, which is very impressive for an AI company because at OpenAI, everyone's left. They all go. Almost all the other companies, everyone leaves the whole time. Anthropic retains them. And that's because I think Anthropic has this, they are very clear about what their mission is, and they're very clear about how they're going to achieve it. And this makes them very dangerous. It's a very aligned institution. To put it another way, at OpenAI, it felt like people might prioritize their career, their like individual success, over the mission of the company, which is a very natural thing to do. Like, everyone does this. It's like, I want to do a project that's going to make me have an impact, that's going to be interesting for me, that's

• 50:36Speaker 00

  good for my career. At Anthropic, it felt a lot more like, well, for starters, the employees call themselves like ants, right? They're the ants in the anthill. Everyone's like a worker ant trying to make the Anthropic, you know, the mission go well. People are very willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the mission. They'll take on work that's less interesting, that's less kind of big and bold and exciting. It's less flashy, and they'll do it at a hit to their own kind of interests for the good of the company. And that's because every decision comes back down to like, is this going to get us to superintelligence faster? You've seen maybe Sora, you saw the video platform that OpenAI made. Anthropic would never make Sora because it's not on the

• 51:17Speaker 00

  core path to artificial superintelligence. OpenAI is distracted and messy, and one guy's like, I want to do Sora, or I want to build like a little device. And they let them do it because it's not like the same focus. At Anthropic, that would never happen. They're just completely kind of-

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Who would shut it down? The seven co-founders? They'd be like, this is not a-

• 51:33Speaker 00

  They'd all agree. They'd all be like, this video, it's not the right direction for heading straight to superintelligence.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Which one is harder to work at? More scheduled, more hours?

• 51:41Speaker 00

  I think it depends on what team you're on, probably. I think when I was there, I think it also depends on the stage of your career. I think when I was getting into, the work was also so different because now, compared to three years ago, you're running these agents. You weren't doing that three years ago. So when I joined, I was writing code by hand, right? Like, it was entirely hand programming. And by the time I left, no one really writes code by hand anymore. Your agents, your agents write the code.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Your agents write the code?

• 52:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. I can talk more about the, it's kind of interesting about the details of how much AI runs the company. To give some flavor, when I, when I quit, when I resigned, I was like, what's the procedure for resigning? Like, what do I sign? And my manager was like, I don't know, ask Claude. So I asked the AI. So I asked the AI how I resign, and the AI told me the flow. No one knows how to resign. You have to ask the AI to do it because the company is run by, like, the processes are run by AI, right? Everyone asks. And it's great, it works. But that's the extent to which AI is part of the whole company. It's like, any transaction is mediated by asking the AI to do it. People's meetings are recorded by AI, summarized. You have AIs posting comments on things. You write an essay and AI will respond. It's like, pretty crazy.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Interesting. Is, is Dario and Sam Altman, on the way their people look at them, between fear, respected, liked, loved, how would you rank them? Like, if you were to say, people love Dario, they respect them?

• 53:08Speaker 00

  I would say at Anthropic, people love and respect Dario.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  Really?

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Yes. In a way that's not the case at OpenAI. Dario has very much like a cult of personality and a cult of like, a cult of vision, as it were, at Anthropic.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  And then Sam Altman is more fear?

• 53:23Speaker 00

  I don't know. I think he's obviously respected, and obviously loved by a lot of people, but not in the same, Dario's thing is different.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and, in the company, like, no matter where you work at, like, right now, you know, yesterday Yankees played the Red Sox, and, you know, they hate each other. They're enemies.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  Right? In sports, you know, we're talking about baseball earlier, you know, in politics, you know, Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, you know, in basketball, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, you know, he was a, who, who was the enemy to Dario? And who did Sam Altman see as his enemy?

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's a great question. You have to look at the history of the companies. So when OpenAI was founded, the big enemy was DeepMind, Google DeepMind and Demis Hassabis. And they were worried about Google kind of becoming dictators. They were worried about Google taking over. So that was the enemy. And then OpenAI was founded. Now, it's like, I'd say there's probably more, like, Dario is quite, has a lot of animosity towards Sam Altman, and the reverse is not necessarily true to the same extent.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Meaning Sam Altman doesn't have animosity towards Dario?

• 54:34Speaker 00

  I think less, because I think, like I said, Dario is very honest, and I think perceive Sam as having betrayed him to a certain extent. And that's a kind of, a pretty permanent blot on the relationship, is my understanding.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  How did he betray him?

• 54:48Speaker 00

  I really don't know the details, but that's my understanding. Again, this is from a-

• 54:50Speaker 02

  That's the energy you see?

• 54:51Speaker 00

  That's the energy-

• 54:52Speaker 02

  So that's not public?

• 54:53Speaker 00

  Uh, I think it's pretty public, yeah.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  On, on the betrayal between, did they do business to get that one?

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, Dario was a, like, big, big figure at OpenAI before he quit.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right. So that, the history is from them leaving. I remember that one, that whole exchange took place. So for him, Dario's enemy was, I'm going to leave and build something faster than Sam. Has he ever expressed the reason for leaving? Was it because he did not want Sam to have the control of this kind of a technology?

• 55:21Speaker 00

  Basically, yes.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  That's what it was?

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Yes, basically.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  I don't think it's good for the world for Sam to control this kind of-

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Maybe not Sam specifically, but like, definitely a large component Sam, and then the rest of OpenAI.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  And who do you think Sam looks at as enemy today? Is it a politician? Is it a competitor? Or is it-

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• 57:27Speaker 00

  I really don't know.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  Okay. And, and what role in something like this right now? I mean, you saw that they had a meeting at AI, at the White House with everybody being there. The list was, all the heavyweights were there, right? And part of that was from your tweet that prompted these types of conversations being had now. What role does Trump play here? Does Dario trust Trump? Does Dario look at Trump as an ally? Does Altman see Trump as an ally? How do they view that?

• 57:53Speaker 00

  I think everything's changed so much now, but I really don't know the, I have like quite a, a very few things that I'm like confident on. I think right now, honestly, everyone is just quite scared of how fast things are going, and they're looking for ways to come together. I do think this particular, this particular record is, you know, is a good thing. Like, what they wrote makes a lot of sense.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  By the way, at the, the AI meeting at the White House, was Dario and Sam Altman present?

• 58:18Speaker 00

  I don't think Sam Altman was. I think he was at OpenAI Dev Day, but Greg Brockman was there.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  And he's one of the seven?

• 58:25Speaker 00

  No, no, Greg Brockman is a-

• 58:27Speaker 02

  A representative of OpenAI, got it. Was, was anybody there from Anthropic?

• 58:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, Dario was there.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Dario was there?

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Okay. Um, Dar, when's the last time Dario and Altman have been seen together? Is that like the thing that happens? Or is that-

• 58:41Speaker 00

  I don't know. There's a lot of, have you seen all these videos flying around?

• 58:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Like, there are these funny music videos flying around now, that like-

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, the dancing that they're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:48Speaker 00

  I like this, but-

• 58:49Speaker 02

  That's funny, that they did something together?

• 58:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's as close as it's going to get, then.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  So one, one of the things you said in the, in the, where do you see Dario here? See if we can spot him.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  I think he's far left.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  Can you find Dario? Where is Waldo? Where is Dario? I don't see him in this-

• 59:04Speaker 00

  No, I don't think he's there.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  I don't see him in this picture here.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  I think he's on the far left.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  So, so, you know, go, go through it. So while you were there at Anthropic, and you guys are having these types of conversations, how many other people while they're sitting there saying, guys, we are, you know, building a replacement?

• 59:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  We are building a replacement. How many people felt they are building their replacement?

• 59:23Speaker 00

  Everyone.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Everyone?

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's just a fact. Everyone knows it.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Is that a fact? Or do the agents still need to be controlled by somebody like you?

• 59:31Speaker 00

  For now, they do. For now, they definitely need control. And for, it's not clear exactly when they lose, we don't need the human anymore. But everyone anticipates it. They're all like, we're going to be, at some point, we won't have a job.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  There, there's Dario, like, let's just say that's something that is happening, and I'm an employee, and I know this is going to be happening, and it's like a truth, right? Was there like a life insurance policy? Guys, if this happens, here's what we're planning on doing, so you don't have to worry about it?

• 59:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. So Anthropic, I think in one of Dario's essays, I think it might be Machines of Loving Grace, this essay, he has a section where he talks about the fact that Anthropic will need to make commitments to its employees for if they get replaced. And I think people implicitly had the knowledge that if Anthropic employees get replaced due to progress, they could expect to be taken care of. I think people expect that they will stay and kind of be looked after.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so, but OpenAI, you don't remember having anything like-

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  They've not said anything publicly. I think there may be some references to it, but nothing of this.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  I think that's a pretty good idea. If you know your people are afraid of something like that, hey, if this happens, we would do this. If that happens, we would do this.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Maybe, but it also says about, like, what about the people that don't work there? What about all the people that are going to get replaced to other companies? It kind of doesn't look great if you're looking at-

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  You're going to any level deeper, yeah.

• 1:00:46Speaker 00

  But like, at these other companies, people are, you know, losing their jobs, and they don't have the same assurances as someone that works at-

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Jacob, who's the weirdest person that slipped in your DM, slid in your DM after that tweet?

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  There's some crazy stuff. I had a, a lot of, um-

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  A lot of quite aggressive gay men DMing me.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  Gay men?

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Wow. Did they think you're gay?

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  I don't know, man. They wanted to find out. Yeah.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  And for the record, you're not gay.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  For the record, I'm not gay. Yeah.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  So gay men.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  A lot of them in my DMs. Yeah.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  But like powerful gay men?

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  No, not powerful.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Okay, you're just gay men, period.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Just dudes in my DMs. Yeah.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  Listen, I mean, if there's powerful gay men, you gotta entertain.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  You gotta reply. Yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  You gotta reply and say at least.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  That is the group.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  This is a billionaire gay man. Hey, sir, respectfully, I'm straight, but thank you for your interest.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  I mean, you could, yeah, you don't have to say.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Any heavy, any heavyweight politicians, world leaders, you know, billionaires, any, any names like that?

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  I think, so there were like, there were a few names. The whole thing is like, I mean, lost in the inbox. I don't wanna say like.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  You must have tens of thousands of DMs.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  It's kind of nuts. I just decided what to respond to, but um, I don't wanna say specifics. I think a lot of, a lot of politicians have reached out and I haven't responded to any of them yet. But a lot of people for things like um, talking to staffers, I think Bernie Sanders, his people reached out, haven't responded to that yet. I had an invitation to go to a, I think a rally with Steve Bannon and Bernie Sanders. That I, that I chose not to go to.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  Steve Bannon and Bernie Sanders?

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  Cause they're aligned on this, right?

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  They're aligned.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  They're on the same page.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. They're on the same page.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  That is a weird rally to go to.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  I know, weird. And I say rally was like an amazing.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Are you thinking about it or?

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  I was thinking about it, definitely, but the thing is uh.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  It just wouldn't look good on, I don't wanna associate, I don't wanna be political, right? I'm also, I'm from the UK. I feel like, I don't wanna just jump into US politics. That's just like an odd thing to do.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's um, and, and by the way, i- is it true that the story at OpenAI, like, you know, if you're going through conflict, they bring dolls and stuff like that? What, what is that? Cause I saw the story last week.

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  This is Anthropic. I fully believe it.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Oh, Anthropic. Is this true, like a stuffed animal advisory council?

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't think this is happening in the office, per se, but I believe it. Yeah, I think like.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Did you ever see it or hear it?

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  I've never seen it, but I've, I've seen things similar at people's houses, right? They have like a duck that they use to talk about their problems. Um, I think it's cool. I think it's like, look dude, Anthropic is gonna be a two trillion IPO. These guys are gonna eat capitalism alive. I'm like, they can do whatever the hell they want if they're.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Who gives a shit?

• 1:03:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, who gives a shit? Like, these guys are taking over. Like, I mean, you gotta give them some respects. Like, if they're, yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  And the upside between the two, just as an investor, forget about, I know what you're thinking about, as an investor between the two, is OpenAI even close to the way they run things at Anthropic?

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  So I haven't been there for four months. Maybe it's changed, but I would like, like, why is OpenAI ahead of Google? It's largely a culture thing. Google has a lot of resources, a lot of people, a lot of great talent, but OpenAI has this focus on building LLMs. And Anthropic is so much more focused. Again, I hear that OpenAI is becoming more focused, but yeah, as, right now as an investor, I guess I would long Anthropic, definitely.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  What, what would you need to see yourself for you to second guess your own fears that you have right now? What would you need to see? Say, you know what? Maybe I'm wrong.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would love to see a, so alignment is this, the science of making them safe, and I would love to see, for example, some good arguments, just science, scientific arguments, that we control the behavior of the AIs. And I think this is doable. To go back to, I think there is research that needs to happen on this, but it's not impossible. Some people say it's impossible. I think you can solve it. The main thing is just next year, the year after, these companies will have to choose between making the thing that makes more money and more power and justifies the insane capital build out.

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  They'll have to choose between that and doing the safety science. That's like a decision, and the free market incentives push you to choosing to go fast, get power, make it better, and skip the safety research.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  You don't sound like a libertarian, you know?

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  In this case, in this case, anything else, anything else.

• 1:04:43Speaker 02

  Anything else you're libertarian, not this one.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  Just not this one.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  Okay, so you, you know, if, if you right now, we did this after your tweet, if you go on uh, ChatGPT or Perplexity or Claude, or you ask, what is the likelihood that AI is gonna replace humanity or destroy humanity in ten years?

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, just like ten percent or something, five percent maybe?

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Itself, it says five to ten percent, right? Okay, I've asked this question from Roman Yampolski. I don't know if you know who Roman Yampolski is.

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I saw your interview. It was great.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I sat down with him. Good, good conversation. I asked him how, what would it look like, right? What would it look like in your eyes? You're an insider.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  Okay, if the world's gonna come to an end in five, ten years, how would it happen?

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  First, you have to realize that the world will look different for this to happen.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  So it's not like it's the end of the world, it's just gonna be a different world?

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, like it'll be, there'll be a lot more robots. You've seen that we're building out robots very quickly, that we have a ton of robots around.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  There'll also be a lot of, potentially a lot of weapons around that aren't currently. There'll be a lot of building out of, say, drones. Right now, you know, we've seen like Russia, Ukraine drones used.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  We're scaling that up. Imagine in five years, like, these countries are gonna be bristling with, with deadly drones. And AI is gonna be integrated everywhere. We're gonna have a lot more of a robot economy, a lot more of decisions are being made by, by AI systems and not by people. So you have to imagine the world looks different in that right now, it feels like we're not surrounded by that much tech. Like, what could an AI do in this room? It could like, mess with some cameras, mess with some lights. But imagine if just the world is bristling with like drones and robots. There's a lot more like AI activity happening. At that point, I think it feels a lot scarier. Like, if the AI is in all the science labs, it's hacked in, it's in every system, and it also has all these drones and robots around, then suddenly you don't feel so safe anymore. Like.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  Also, imagine all your decisions are being made by AI. You're thinking about podcast planning or what, or like, stuff that, you know, that I don't understand, but um, if you ask the AI about it in the future, it'll be giving you great advice, like strategic advice, like here's how to, you know, like.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  With certain guests to be like, extra, his things to say to make them extra persuasive, and it'll be better than, better than humans are coming up with like, all sorts of stuff.

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  I mean, you've already seen some guys who come out of nowhere with their podcast blows up, and they are ninety percent is AI driven.

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  It's AI driven.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  And some of the personality driven podcasts who used to be bigger five years ago, they've kind of flatlined a little bit.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  And it's like, imagine that, but even more so, everyone, you're aware that all your decisions can be made better with AI. You're asking for planning, like, say, financial planning, for spreading out like, whatever sort of business stuff you're doing.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  That becomes a fad though, and people are like, I'm, sports teams right now, valuations growing exponentially.

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Because what people are saying is, even no matter how many robots you have, people are gonna wanna see other people beat people. We will be more interested and impressed by what people do, human beings do, instead of what robots do.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  But the AI will be telling you that. If that's true.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  Who will be telling you?

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  The AI will tell you. It'll say like prioritize people things, cause it understands. So just when you're thinking about this world, it's like, we're not making decisions anymore. The decisions are all the AI. At that point, it should be clear that if the AI decided to turn against us, we would have no power. Just imagine, at that point, no one's working anymore. Everyone's just asking the AI to, to run their stuff for them. Maybe some people are pretending to work, or like they think they're working, but really the AI could do it better. Um, and you've got robots and drones and labs building out all sorts of crazy technology. At that point, I think you should start to feel like, wow, if humans were the enemy suddenly, there's nothing we could do.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Don't you think that's, that's kind of like, uh, you know, every time, every generation, when something new is coming out, there's a fear about what TV was gonna do?

• 1:08:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  Elvis Presley started shaking his hips, oh my God, everyone's gonna start sleeping with each other. Honey, turn off, close your eyes, don't look at his hips, this is bad, you know, or. Music, radio, TV, internet, you know, nuclear war, oh, everyone's gonna use nuclear bombs. It's gonna be a nuclear World War III, World War II. Hasn't really happened.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  What's different about this? Is this the fact that you think if it all of a sudden thinks on its own, the AI can think, they control us, and now we have no control and they can say, hey?

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  You guys better respond to us or else.

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  I guess what I'll say is um, I don't know how much of the world works, right? I've just done tech and math, so I don't know how to run another business or to build anything or anything like this. And also the, I guess, people that are working in other industries, they don't have visibility into, into AI, they don't see it. What I'll say is if you look at just, I think the news headlines are quite interesting, because for even other panics, I don't think what we had is this like buildup. I think maybe there'd be like an initial thing, and then it would like be a plateau, or it'd be like, oh, this TV thing, it would dribble through, the same articles coming through, there wouldn't be this, this buildup. Whereas right now, everyone can feel it. I'm sure you can feel it, right? With AI, it's like, every year it gets bigger and faster.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  So I'd say that even though I don't, I don't understand the other stuff, and people outside don't understand the AI, I would say just look at the, look at the rate. It's just every year it gets bigger, and nothing else has been like that. It's this exponential like, coming faster. So really, I think you don't need to trust me. Like, I just think in, in six months, it will become even more clear to everyone.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  In six months?

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it'll be more clear in six months.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Unpack that.

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the models that come out in the next three or four months.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  You know what models are coming up?

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do. Um, and I can't say details, but they're gonna be a lot better at coding, they're gonna be a lot better at automating my research. It will go even more to running these agents like employees. Maybe these models will get released, maybe they won't get released. There'll definitely be news stories about the decisions around releasing them. It's gonna feel big, I think.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  By the way, when you say uh, Dario was a great researcher, your researcher, coder we get, engineer we get, what, what does it mean to be a researcher?

• 1:10:27Speaker 00

  It's kind of pretentious. It mostly means coming up with the ideas, so like, which things to code. So like uh, you've got the AI, I guess, details of its training recipe, deciding which ingredients to add. Deciding um, what shape its brain is, essentially deciding how it's connected together. All these like uh, decisions. Um, it, it honestly is.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  How do you score a great researcher?

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  But he's a great researcher. How do you know that? Like, does it take years for somebody, like, people took years to realize Dario is good, or can you look at a twenty-three year old and say, this guy's a special researcher?

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  Honestly, I, yeah.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  I saw a contract that a young twenty-four year old got a one billion dollar payday from Meta. What, what is, what is special about that guy that Meta gave him a billion dollar offer?

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  There are some guys that are just like, they will, so these training runs cost a lot of money. These AI training um, things, they, they cost a lot. Right, we're talking maybe like hundreds of millions more. If you make that more efficient, you're saving the company a lot of money. The capex on these uh, data centers, like hundreds of billions. Again, if you make any of this more efficient, you're saving a, a lot of money. And there are some guys, for now, that have amazing intuition and work really hard, and will save the company a ton of money.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, like this right here. Meta, this is a two hundred and fifty million dollar allure, twenty-four year old whiz kid, we have reached the climax of Revenge of the Nerds.

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, and I think it was.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Two fifty for a twenty-four year old?

• 1:11:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  What's special about this twenty-four year old to pay two fifty to him?

• 1:11:50Speaker 00

  So I don't remember this dude. Um.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Go a little bit higher so I can read it.

• 1:11:52Speaker 00

  Maybe look up um, what was his name?

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  Another guy got a billion dollar.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  Look up the, you can look up the billion guy.

• 1:11:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, who's the billion guy?

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  I met him a few times.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  Can you go to the billion guy? Uh, do, do you know the name of the guy or no?

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  Andrew something, I think, uh.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  So guy, guy got a billionaire. Just ask chat GPT, go, go on that in chat and see what it says. Yeah, somebody got a billionaire.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Why though?

• 1:12:20Speaker 00

  These guys are like.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  So like you met him. So what was so special about him?

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  These guys have good taste for research. They know the right things to do. They'll save you so much money in your big crazy experiments.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Actually walk me through it. So can you systematize that? What does that mean?

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  Um, so, uh, yeah, sure. Thanks.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, walk me through it. What does it mean that these guys know how to do it? Save you all this time for research?

• 1:12:45Speaker 00

  Yep. So imagine you're kicking off a big AI training run, it's called. So it will take a few months. And you've got to decide the details of the data and the recipe, these things. Some guys like this guy, um,

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  are just great at making changes to that recipe. So that it becomes more efficient. And if this whole thing, and in a way that no one else can match, no one else can have the same ideas. So these guys.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  We come up with an idea and then this guy is able to say, it's a waste of time. I wouldn't do it.

• 1:13:19Speaker 00

  Although this guy in particular, I think was just great at like, um.

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  This guy, you know, this guy?

• 1:13:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I met him a few times during training runs at OpenAI and he was, he was always around. He was like very fast at solving stuff. He was fixing bugs in our training of the AI system, like snap, just fixing them in a way that other people weren't fixing them. So he was irreplaceable, right? And then, um, that's why he's worth a billion dollars.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  Who gave the billion?

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  I think Meta, Meta poached.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  Meta gave a billionaire.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, from, uh, thinking machines. Yeah.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  Uh, per Andrew Ng, it's just Meta to train rival AI, Amado Claude. So what, he, he left Meta now? The ex-ingenius who reportedly got a billionaire package from Meta has defected to one of its rivals in the AI race?

• 1:13:58Speaker 00

  I guess I've not been following.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  This is three days ago. This is literally two days ago.

• 1:14:01Speaker 00

  I guess he joined Anthropic, which is.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  And Australian tech was reportedly so sorry, my Meta, I want to have billionaire salary, uh, package in front of him had already left the company to join the AI race, Android. Who's he go to? Is he, uh, Anthropic this month? So he went to Anthropic. So Dario picked him up. You didn't even know this. This just happened three days ago. And so this guy was a whiz, fast. He could solve it faster than his peers.

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  And how old is he? Is he about your age?

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  I think he's thirties.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  He's thirties?

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah. So now let me ask you, can, can, can the people, okay, like, let's say a hundred of you.

• 1:14:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  Okay, who feel the way you do, ex Anthropic, ex OpenAI, ex Google, ex, pick all of them.

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  You guys find each other. Okay? Can you guys use the AI against itself to hack into it and destroy the systems?

• 1:14:59Speaker 00

  Sorry, what do you mean? So use the AI?

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  Okay. So think about, let's just do an evil. Like, like devil's advocate is what we're playing. You are so convinced this shit is going to get bad.

• 1:15:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  That you unify together, the hundred of you, you have a common enemy. AI is going to destroy humanity. Let's get ahead of it. Let's destroy it ourselves.

• 1:15:15Speaker 00

  So I, yeah, I think you, the thing you've described is basically Anthropic. That entity that you're, you're talking about is Anthropic. Like they're a group of people that were scared. They organized together. They unified themselves together and they're going to take like aggressive action to try and save people. That is literally what Anthropic is.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  So you're saying Anthropic was those hundred people that unified together to potentially if they wanted to destroy OpenAI, they could.

• 1:15:42Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  So you mean to tell me right now Anthropic, if they wanted to destroy OpenAI, they could?

• 1:15:46Speaker 00

  No, they're not, they're not at that level. And I'm not saying they're planning that necessarily.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  I'm not saying you're saying they're planning. I'm just saying capability. Those are two different things.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  No, they couldn't. Not yet.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Not right now.

• 1:15:53Speaker 00

  Not right now.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  When do you think they would be able to?

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, it depends again how fast we go, but end of the decade.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  So four years.

• 1:16:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  So in four years, if Dario wanted to destroy OpenAI, he could.

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  I think quite plausibly, yes. And it depends on how fast people go. I know, right?

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  So the seven co-founders of Anthropic, do they all share the common enemy of how they view Sam Altman?

• 1:16:25Speaker 00

  I don't know. Yeah, I don't know the details. Um.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Did, did they all come from OpenAI or are they all from different places?

• 1:16:31Speaker 00

  I think they all came from OpenAI. Um.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  You cannot tell me you don't know. I mean, it's, it's very obvious.

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  I think Daniela Amade maybe, no, no, she did too. Yeah, I think they all came from OpenAI.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Jack Clark is also OpenAI. Tom Brown. Can you check to see if all of the seven co-founders of Anthropic all came from OpenAI? So the way I watched how Sam Altman handled Elon, it was disrespectful. I'm not involved. I'm not on the inside. I don't know what's going on. But from the outside, it sounded like Sam Altman deceived. You know, uh, uh, Elon, it sounded like Elon was coming from a good place of open AI, allow everybody to know what we're building. At least that's my impression of it. And then it goes from a nonprofit to for-profit and Elon's like, wait a minute, what are you doing? Didn't Elon give like 50 million dollars?

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  He gave some amount.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  He gave some amount to him to help, uh, you know, to help build it. And then it goes, so you, the reputation in the marketplace about OpenAI is not positive, specifically Sam Altman. We even had a guy here who used to work at OpenAI, uh, his parents came here. And, and this is the fellow who was the whistleblower who was found dead. I don't know if you remember that story.

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had him here. Mom came here, dad came here. They spent, they were trying to tell us, I'm telling you, here's what we think happened with Sam Altman. Um, where some people would say there's an element of evil

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  in this guy. Would you agree with that?

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  I don't know. And I will say about the Sutia thing. Um, so all the stuff I'm saying about taking over in the future, I mean that completely. Um, in the short term.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  You mean that completely?

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  I mean that it's possible in the future.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Speaker 00

  This, uh, like, yeah, there's no way that they killed Sutia. Like that, that wasn't a hit. I, a hundred percent it wasn't. Um, that's just not a thing OpenAI would do.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  You know that?

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  I know that. Yep.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  How, how do you know that?

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  Just from personal relationships with people that run the company. They, this is, it's just nonsense.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  Did you ever meet him?

• 1:18:24Speaker 00

  Uh, yes, I know Sutia. Yep.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  What was he like? Was he?

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  He was great. Just a great researcher, great guy. Um, I presume he was depressed. I, I presume it was a suicide. I think there's no, it, it seems impossible that it was anything else. Yep. And this is someone who's saying, I'm also saying that OpenAI and Anthropic are racing to destroy the world. But this particular act, I can say this was.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  I like you a lot, Jacob. I don't know who you were, but I like you a lot. Let me, the more I talk to you, the more I like you. It's so funny because I didn't know who you were. I don't know how you were, but uh, tell me about your parents.

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  My parents?

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  Oh, sure. Yeah. Um, my father's a professor of medieval German literature.

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  Medieval German literature?

• 1:19:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  Uh, you can ask him that. It's pretty dumb.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  That's what he did.

• 1:19:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what he did. Yeah.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  How about mom?

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  Um, uh, she did some stuff. I don't know. Yeah, I think, um.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  And, and what values did they raise you with? What, what did they teach you?

• 1:19:18Speaker 00

  What values did they raise me with? Um, I read a lot of books. Um.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Your character, like, I want to know about the character. Like what did they, did they tell you, hey, you know, you're a man, you keep your word and integrity. What did they teach you? And what values did they, that's, that's what I'm interested in.

• 1:19:35Speaker 00

  Uh, I was raised in a Christian, as a Christian school, but my parents are atheists. Um.

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  They're atheists and they intentionally put you in a Christian school?

• 1:19:42Speaker 00

  Well, a lot of schools in the UK are Christian per se. It's not in the same, it's not in the same as the US. Yeah. It's like a bit lighter. Yeah.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  Did that, did that, the, did the faith play a role on you?

• 1:19:52Speaker 00

  I don't think so. No. Um, no.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  Your integrity, where do you get the values? Where do you get that from? This is very impressive.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  I, I think it's maybe a math thing. I don't consider myself to be particularly in like,

• 1:20:07Speaker 00

  I think I'm just trying to say the truth. I try and say true things is the main thing. Like in math, you try and say the truth about stuff. So I'm just trying to say true things, right? Like in this case, I don't know. Um.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, but character is different than trying. I know a lot of people that are good in math who are extremely logical, but they find a way to use that against them to, to manipulate it and have power. I don't feel that from you.

• 1:20:25Speaker 00

  I'm really not a, not a saint in this situation. I've told you, I've profited a lot from working at OpenAI. Um.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  You profited a lot.

• 1:20:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I made money at, from working at OpenAI. I think, uh, like I worked at OpenAI even while thinking it was potentially a dangerous thing.

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  While you were doing it because you were making good money?

• 1:20:40Speaker 00

  Because not specifically the money, but because of the whole situation, like you want to be part of it. You want to be working on it. You're not thinking too clearly. Um.

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  When's your birthday? What month's your birthday?

• 1:20:51Speaker 00

  It was September 20.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  So you just had a birthday.

• 1:20:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just had a birthday.

• 1:20:54Speaker 02

  Ten days ago.

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  Happy birthday to you.

• 1:20:56Speaker 00

  Thank you, yeah.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz I remember reading 26. I'm like, when did you turn 27 years old? Cuz at the beginning, yeah, when you did this, you were 26 years old. September 8, right?

• 1:21:05Speaker 00

  Uh, 27, yeah, and now I'm 28.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Oh, you're 28 now?

• 1:21:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  Okay, I got it. Well, two more years, you're gonna be old. You're about to be 30, man. Like, what are you gonna do from here, you know?

• 1:21:13Speaker 00

  I have to respond to those gay men in my DMs.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Let's hope some of them have money and say, hey, I need somebody to take care of me. That is hilarious. So the question that I asked you and your answer, I'm still in that question because I asked, I said, if 100 people like you, so if you, 100 people of you united and decided to go up against the enemy, could you break them? And you said, that's exactly what Anthropic did. That is very interesting.

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  That is very interesting. So they created themselves to play defense against the enemy. But if the technology gets smarter than them, then they have to play defense against the technology that's got a life of its own now.

• 1:21:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  And they're aware of that. It seems like Dario is.

• 1:21:54Speaker 00

  They're aware.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Is it fair to say that an assessment of Dario is he's a pretty paranoid guy?

• 1:21:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  He is.

• 1:22:00Speaker 00

  Definitely, yes.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  And so that could work in your favor and against you at times.

• 1:22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think an important thing with Anthropic is they always promised that they would never overtake OpenAI. At the very start, they always said that they would never push the boundaries. They would always be second place. They'd catch up, they'd make it safe. But now they've overtaken, and now they regularly release AIs that are better than OpenAI's AIs, which is a thing they said they would not do.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Hmm. And you think that's just because of the capitalism competition?

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  I think that's a component of it. I think they also have a story that if they can get ahead, they have extra time to make it safe. They have like better AIs to run their safety research. There's a lot of reasons for it, but also it is, you know, it makes them a lot of money, so.

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Who's third in the competition, by the way?

• 1:22:45Speaker 00

  Who started the competition?

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  Third, who's third? Like, if it's them two, who's three?

• 1:22:48Speaker 00

  That's a great question. I think it's a...

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Like a far distance third?

• 1:22:52Speaker 00

  It's not a, I mean, it's pretty far at the moment, I think. So there's a, you know, there's Meta, Google, and XAI. And I'm not actually deep enough in the weeds right now to know exactly who's third. I suspect it's like Meta overall, but those three are also around.

• 1:23:06Speaker 03

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• 1:23:35Speaker 07

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• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  Has the White House reached out to you?

• 1:24:24Speaker 00

  Um, no, no.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  They've not reached out to you to just be like, hey, what do you think about what's going on? Even not, not, and I'm not saying the president, I'm saying somebody on the team that's kind of like, hey, if here were you, what suggestions would you have for us?

• 1:24:35Speaker 00

  I'm not sure. I think quite a few staffers have reached out, or politicians, but I'm not sure about the White House, per se, yeah.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  You haven't had a conversation with them, like?

• 1:24:42Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  Okay. If they did, and they say, okay, Jacob, you're a young guy that, you worked at both of these places, what should we do?

• 1:24:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Speaker 02

  What would you say?

• 1:24:51Speaker 00

  So what I'd say is, again, to start with, not an expert.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  I got the Chinese nationals, like, hey, don't give, kind of treat it like SpaceX, but what else?

• 1:24:58Speaker 00

  The most important thing is, we need to make sure that the, so that the safety problem is solvable. We just need to incentivize solving it. We need to make it so that we devote our resources to solving it. To make that, let me write that down, like, in a couple of years, Sam Alman will be able to decide what percentage of his resources go to making money, making things smarter, and what percentage go towards doing safety research. Because a lot of stuff will be automated, so it's really like, it's like a game, like a video game. You'll get to just say, safety research, this percent. It's like you're allocating resources in a video game. And the problem is, what percentage do you allocate? And that depends on whether you're in a race or not. So what I would say

• 1:25:43Speaker 00

  is, we need to ensure that they will be able to pick the right percentage for safety, which could be 50, 60, 70. It could be a big number. They have to pick the right number. And right now, I'm worried that the free market means they will pick the wrong number, and there's nothing we can do about it. And also the race with China. So what I would say is, we need some agreement with all the labs and with China about the percentage of resources that go to making ourselves smarter versus doing the safety research.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  Did you see the red phone story today?

• 1:26:15Speaker 00

  The red phone? No.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  So can you pull that up, the red phone story? So back in the days, US and USSR had a red phone?

• 1:26:21Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:26:21Speaker 02

  Uh, for nuclear, that they would have the conversation if something were to happen. They created a red phone story. Uh, US-China red phone could bring a Cold War guardrail to AI. They're saying they have that, but China doesn't want to buy by it.

• 1:26:37Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  China's not really interested in it. Okay, so that's already been talked about. And Xi and the president had a conversation about this, I think, last week. I think they have another follow-up to come back. They spent a little bit of time talking about AI. US and China set up an AI red phone. Can you go to the other one you just had? US and China to set up a red telephone. So, um...

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  I guess, I guess the question I'm trying to go with this here is, if they're gonna do that, they don't agree to it. We choose to do it internally. They continue advancing. Where lies the blind spot for Trump, President Trump? Where lies the blind spot for China? Where's the blind spot for Dario and Altman?

• 1:27:20Speaker 00

  What do you mean by a blind spot?

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Like, something that they're not even look, they're like, yeah, I don't, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Where is their blind spot? What are they not seeing?

• 1:27:31Speaker 02

  Is it just the incentive is so big that it's like, I don't want to slow down because there's no way in the world I'm gonna... So has it become from, we were doing this for a noble cause, that we know OpenAI and Sam Altman were the enemy, and we had to prevent them to expanding, and now it's like, we're gonna beat them. There's no way in the world we're gonna let them advance.

• 1:27:47Speaker 00

  The biggest thing is, it's really easy to kid yourself with safety research. So it's very easy to say, this thing looks great, because all you need is one mistake, and you're toast. So it's very easy to like, and in a race, just imagine, you're like, you're 90%, you're like, okay, this looks great. We're not quite certain. China's also doing it. What do we do? We either launch today and keep the lead on China, or we delay a few weeks and do these checks that probably are not necessary. The question is, what would you do in that scenario? And I don't know what I would do. Imagine you're running a, imagine you're running an AI lab, and you're like, do I keep going? Or do I stop and do the safety thing when China is at your...

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  That's what I'm saying. So you and I don't know, right? Because we're not on the inside. Could it be that they know something that you don't know, which is causing them to continue? Because there's no way in the world, like, are they gonna think and say, you know what? I'm gonna go, it's like the movie I, Robot. I'm gonna have so many of these robots and have, I have control of them, that no one's gonna be able to touch me because they will protect me.

• 1:28:51Speaker 00

  Basically.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  You think that's what they're thinking?

• 1:28:52Speaker 00

  I think plausibly at some point.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  That they're flirting with that mindset?

• 1:28:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, sometimes.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  So we are now more powerful than any military in the world, because I can activate any red button of a nuclear bomb if I wanted to, cuz I can hack into your system.

• 1:29:06Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  So now you're talking about a bigger problem, because now it becomes a god-like figure. You think you are now God.

• 1:29:14Speaker 00

  Right. These people have been planning to be, and you look at the early conversations, look at Elon Musk's conversations, look at Demis Hassabis' conversations. From the start, it's been whoever controls AI becomes a god, you know, almost. That's been the picture from the start. OpenAI was founded because they didn't want Demis Hassabis to become a god, as it were. And now we're getting close, which is just weird and scary that,

• 1:29:42Speaker 00

  you know, um...

• 1:29:48Speaker 02

  So then at that point, if you create guardrails and you get the systems, because then the enemy of Dario becomes somebody on the inside. Because typically what happens is somebody on the inside watches you and sees that you're becoming evil and they try to talk to you about it. And you either eliminate them, or you fire them, or you get rid of them, or you create guardrails to undermine them. You use propaganda to say, hey, this guy's a pedophile. This guy, you know, I saw something with a kid or I saw something with this. And, you know, and then, and then, you know, kind of like that one story where the AI threatens the user to tell his wife that he's cheating on the wife. I don't know if you saw that or not with the blackmail. Did you see that story recently?

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  It's going to be very easy to toy with the human's emotion of public humiliation to control them. And, and, but Dario's enemy essentially, long term, becomes nobody but somebody on the inside. Nobody else is going to be his enemy.

• 1:30:48Speaker 00

  Quite plausibly, although, um, soon, the guys running this company, they won't need the humans. Right? They can run the company on the back of AI.

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  The seven guys?

• 1:30:59Speaker 00

  The seven guys, or even just, I mean, it depends who has the power, but they'll be there just telling the AI.

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  One of those seven will be the enemy.

• 1:31:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:31:05Speaker 02

  No, I'm telling you, that's how this ends. This ends with one of the seven says, what the, what are you doing?

• 1:31:10Speaker 00

  But you've forgotten the stuffed toys.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  That's what's going to save us. You know what? I'm sorry. I missed it. My apologies. I wasn't paying attention to it. Did you see if all of them were former Open AIs? Is it yes? So the seven currently identified as anthropic are, Dario was OpenAI VIP Research, Daniela was OpenAI VIP Safety and Policy, Tom Brown was OpenAI Researcher, lead author of ChatGPT, well, GPT-3 paper, which you were talking about. Sam, uh, also an OpenAI researcher, worked on scaling AI safety. Jack, Policy Director, Chris, Inter-Pretiability Researcher. And then Jared Kaplan, worked with the OpenAI Research Group and was a major contributor to. So they all united against Sam Altman.

• 1:31:55Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:31:57Speaker 02

  If this thing gets that powerful, one of these guys is going to turn against Dario. If it gets so bad that the world could have issues, one of these seven is going to say, Dario, you have lost control. You're not thinking you're bigger than everybody else. Because you have to realize, the good thing about the presidency is what? The reason why folks like you and I leave our country to come here, okay? Is this place offers more opportunity. I left Iran, you left UK. Now, you may go back to UK, who knows, but I think you're going to stay here, right?

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Is when you have a president, instead of a ruler, you know, the president's going to get taken out in four to eight years. Because you got two terms. So it's kind of like, no matter how bad it's going to be, he's going to be out anyways.

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:32:40Speaker 02

  Oh, Biden sucks, he'll be out. Trump sucks, he'll be out. Obama sucks, he'll be out. Just wait four to eight years. Dario becomes a president for 30 years. And he may not, he may get reelected for 30 years. And these companies are becoming countries. And so, I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:33:00Speaker 00

  Scary.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, if it goes to where you think it's going to go to, it is scary.

• 1:33:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:33:08Speaker 00

  And it may not, you know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people are wrong. The good news is, I think we'll find out quite soon, in six months. I think further details of this stuff, we'll find out properly in the next one or two years. Uh, just by following the trajectory. And I'm happy to be, you know, if I'm embarrassed, so be it. But the world will, you know, go on and that will, that will be great. But if it's not the case, I think it's good that people are a bit more ready right now. So that when things do start getting a bit crazier, you know, if people's eyes are open, that's like the main thing. I think like, everyone should have their eyes open and be like demanding transparency. Because it's completely crazy

• 1:33:49Speaker 00

  that all this power is being concentrated in a few companies in San Francisco.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  When you, when you go out in San Francisco, go to dinner, do people recognize you?

• 1:34:01Speaker 00

  Not really, no. I think, I'm not wearing the glasses. People remember the glasses from the Fox News.

• 1:34:06Speaker 02

  People don't stop you and say, hey, you, why did you say that? I agree with you. Do you get any of that?

• 1:34:13Speaker 00

  I had that at the start. The first week, it was crazy, because I think it was on the news the whole time. I had people heckling me. I was like at the gym, someone was like, why are you trying to ruin the economy or whatever?

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  People are telling you this.

• 1:34:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But like, not anymore. No, I don't get like, uh, recognized on the street.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  Did you ever get death threats or not really?

• 1:34:26Speaker 00

  Uh, not really. I mean, I have some implicit threats, but I just don't look at Twitter, like.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, on Twitter. Those are bots.

• 1:34:32Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:34:33Speaker 02

  Those are bots.

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  That's fine. I'm sure you get a ton.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you get those a lot. And it's not hard to kind of see. At first, I thought you were bot. Because your account had just been started. And then when I saw your interview with Cooper and Brett Baer, I'm like, no, this is actually a real human being. And you're not a robot, just for full compliance. I just want to make sure the audience knows you're not.

• 1:34:50Speaker 00

  No, drinking water, not a robot.

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  You bleed, right? If you cut.

• 1:34:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I bleed.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Okay, that's good. We just want to make sure there's a... What, what, what else you think people should be thinking about? Like, if I'm somebody that's got a wife and kid, okay? And I'm not in your world.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  I'm on the outside. That's 99% of people in America. They're not in your world, right? What should I be doing? You're my, you're my brother, you're my nephew, you're my friend's son, you're at my house. I ask you, Jacob, if you think this is real, how do I, you know, prepare for this? What can I do?

• 1:35:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. So one thing, uh, is, like I said, eyes open. I just think paying attention and not like, not coping feels important. I think like, it's so easy to pretend it's not happening, because also you've got your, everyone's got their own lifestyle. I'm not saying, don't let this take over your life. It should be, obviously, it's a small, a small thing. Uh, in the context of any individual life, like you've got to look after yourself. But I'd say just keeping the eyes open and seeing where things are going is the first step to action. I really don't know what to do, like, on an individual level. The other thing is maybe some basic prepping for stuff like, uh, you know, cyber attacks or even a small pandemic, like if there's some sort of bioweapon leak in the next couple of years.

• 1:36:06Speaker 00

  Doing a little bit of prepping of like, food, masks, basic supplies for if there's some minor disaster, or even just civil unrest, some sort of like, two week long thing. Not the full like apocalypse, but I think some basic prepping is sensible.

• 1:36:18Speaker 02

  At what point do you think this thing's going to have the capability of, uh, hacking into a system to Pentagon, to governments, to China, to Russia? When will it get to that point? Where it can go in and say, I can tell you exactly how much this guy's got in his bank account. I can log into your Chase account, I can log into your Wells Fargo account, I can log into your... When will that happen?

• 1:36:41Speaker 00

  There's a lot of uncertainty. Um, my best guess, one, two years.

• 1:36:46Speaker 02

  That, that's soon.

• 1:36:48Speaker 00

  Yes. I'm not saying that it will be doing this, and I'm not saying which ones.

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  No, for sure, but that's soon.

• 1:36:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  So when pandemic happened, we hadn't experienced something like that before. I'm 47 years old, haven't experienced something like that. You're 27, 28. Uh, you know, all of a sudden, the world shut down. Everyone's like, wait a minute, what are you talking about? Stay home, do this, do that. Power grid, we've never experienced that.

• 1:37:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:11Speaker 02

  When Y2K was happening, they thought the banking system, you were just born. I think you were born 99 or what year are you? 98 or 99?

• 1:37:18Speaker 00

  98, yeah.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  98, okay. So it's like, oh my God, Y2K, you know, system's going to shut down, right? Now we see an AI has transformed the Pentagon's aging networks into a national security risk, okay? If all of a sudden you can go into government systems and know where they have everything laying around, or you're able to go into every single account and take a thousand dollars out of everybody's money, that's a different kind of a, you know, black swan event that we've never experienced before.

• 1:37:48Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  And I think it's actually gonna happen. I just don't know when it's gonna happen. Like, I'm not one that is naive to say, that'll never happen. I think it's gonna happen.

• 1:37:55Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:37:56Speaker 02

  And that could lead to civil unrest, crime, chaos, you know, small little civil wars, whether it's in states or countries.

• 1:38:07Speaker 00

  Yep. I'm sure you're pretty, you're pretty prepared. You've got some like basic prep stuff. Where you've, you've thought about basic prepping.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  We, we, we don't have a choice, right? Because you have to, you are as well, are you prepared yourself?

• 1:38:16Speaker 00

  I'm actually not as prepped as I should be, no.

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  Are you a Second Amendment guy?

• 1:38:20Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, sure.

• 1:38:21Speaker 02

  You are?

• 1:38:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, I don't actually, uh...

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  On a gun, but you, but you support it.

• 1:38:26Speaker 00

  Definitely, I support it, yeah.

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think this is kind of the area where that becomes important. I think you have to do that. Like, my son, the other day, I'm working out at the gym, he's like, Dad, why do you have so many rounds in the gym? Why do you have so much ammo in the gym? You just got to be ready. It's like, hey, I use it as dumbbells. That's what I do. I'm working out with it, right? But, but I agree, but can you, have you hypothesized with your friends where it's late at night? You guys are at the house, having a beer or two, and it's two o'clock in the morning, one o'clock in the morning? It's, what could actually happen? Give me five case studies. Have you guys talked like that?

• 1:38:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. There's people like, um, people buying golden guns. Gold guns land, that's pretty common.

• 1:39:04Speaker 02

  Gold guns land?

• 1:39:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  They're buying, you know, they're buying gold.

• 1:39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  There's a potential like economic stuff. They're buying guns.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  Oh, gold guns land.

• 1:39:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, gold guns and land, all those, all those three people are, are doing that. People that work on the tech are buying that stuff.

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  People that are working on tech are buying gold guns and land?

• 1:39:21Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  That makes sense.

• 1:39:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does make sense. And they're doing it. Like, these are engineers, researchers.

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  Not famous people. These are just guys that are working day to day.

• 1:39:31Speaker 00

  These guys that work day to day, yeah.

• 1:39:32Speaker 02

  And they talk to each other. I just bought some gold. I just bought some more guns and I bought land.

• 1:39:36Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:39:36Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:40:05Speaker 07

  How many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount, safe driver discount, uh, new vehicle discount, storage discount?

• 1:40:14Speaker 08

  How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com/autodesk. Restrictions apply.

• 1:40:48Speaker 02

  But what I was asking about is case studies of what could happen. Like, you know, if you're a researcher, right? If I ask you, that fellow we talked about that got a billion dollars and now we just found that three days ago, he's an anthropic, we didn't even know, neither one of us knew about this.

• 1:41:00Speaker 00

  Basically, one basic thing, it's very simple, but some lab in a country somewhere releases a virus, not even a particularly dangerous virus necessarily, but like a minor pandemic of some sort, seems completely on the cards, possible, it's been possible even before AI, but I think it's more likely every year.

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  But you can't blame AI for that.

• 1:41:21Speaker 00

  You can in the case where it's people that formerly didn't have the skills, but got the skills from.

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  Oh, now because of AI, you learn how to create the next virus.

• 1:41:30Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, previously, the maybe the smartest, the smartest bio guys, they don't want to make viruses, like, you know, the Unabomber, like Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber guy, like, he's a smart guy and wanted to do with, but it's very rare, it's very rare for like a guy to be this smart and then also want to do stuff. Now, if you're a kind of dumb biologist somewhere, like, you don't know how to make this stuff. If you've got a, you could just ask AI and say.

• 1:41:56Speaker 02

  Would it tell you?

• 1:41:57Speaker 00

  It wouldn't tell you off the bat, but there are ways of potentially jailbreaking, like, you can, you can trick it into answering your question.

• 1:42:03Speaker 02

  Do people know how to do that? Do most people nowadays?

• 1:42:05Speaker 00

  Not most people know how to do that, it gets quite hard, and in particular, the safeguards that Anthropic have are very good, so it's quite hard to get past.

• 1:42:10Speaker 02

  Is it something where in your community of people know how to do that? Like, you know how to do that?

• 1:42:15Speaker 00

  There are some people who specialize in it, it's called red teaming, you're trying to break past the safeguards, but.

• 1:42:19Speaker 02

  Red teaming?

• 1:42:20Speaker 00

  Red teaming, yeah, you're like a red team, you try and break into them, but if you're an expert red teamer, it costs a lot of money, you've got to like, and Anthropic is getting better at blocking, but it's completely plausible that if it's not, you know, an Anthropic model, it could be another model, it could be an open source model that gives good advice, and then a, you know, minor pandemic happens, it's just a scenario to be prepared for.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  So this one here says, this AI just created a virus is not found in nature.

• 1:42:48Speaker 00

  So I don't know how dangerous these are, I don't know how good this is, it might not even be creating new viruses, right? It might just be advice on how to use an old virus to cause damage, or like, slightly edit an old virus, or just do basic things. There's also a story, I think, recently of like Claude blocking a team trying to make bioweapons, I think you see, so Claude had to block, like Anthropic had to, they detected them trying and then, and then blocked them, I think there should be a news article about this, so people are trying, they're trying to use the AIs to help them, help them.

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  Are they reporting that to the, to the government?

• 1:43:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, this was a, this was a news article, exactly.

• 1:43:21Speaker 02

  Anthropic blocks possible attempt to use AI to make biological weapons. 9/11, what a day. Yeah, what a day, and so, but by then, so these, these red team and blue team, AI on AI red teaming, one powerful AI is instructed to attack another AI thousands or millions of times automatically looking for vulnerabilities humans wouldn't discover.

• 1:43:43Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:43:43Speaker 02

  Okay, so viruses is one, what else?

• 1:43:45Speaker 00

  Yep. Another very concrete thing is unrest, they're worried about potential unrest in the future due to changes to employment, and due to changes in people's lives. If there's sudden economic change, it can be quite disruptive in the short term, and that could also lead to a lot of anti-AI backlash. I think many employees expect that they won't be able to go to an office publicly anymore in the future because of all the anti-AI backlash, they'll be locked away somewhere where it's harder to, they're less exposed, so they're expecting a lot of sentiment like that, there's a lot of talk about, you know, where they're gonna live in the US when, when it gets dangerous in San Francisco, when it gets dangerous to be an AI researcher in San Francisco, where

• 1:44:27Speaker 00

  are they gonna like, camp out and work remotely, because of potential civil unrest.

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  So places like Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, those places are gonna be attractive?

• 1:44:36Speaker 00

  They're gonna be pretty attractive, yep.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Got it, I'm tracking, what else? Do you think they'll get to a point that the system knows how to go into the countries that have nuclear weapons and know how to press the button? You think we'll ever get to that point?

• 1:44:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, we'd be able to do that.

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  You're just saying that like, like a crazy evil person can find a way to go press the red button for 50 different countries, 20 different countries, and send that missile.

• 1:45:02Speaker 00

  Again, it depends how proliferated the tech is, who's in control, like, but the best AI systems will be able to do that, it's whether, it's whether the gods are in place, it's who has access, it's who can, who can break in and use it, who can red team, other things that could be chaotic, at some point, China, at any point, imagine China steals the best American model.

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  I think what you said at the beginning, that, that's my biggest concern.

• 1:45:25Speaker 00

  Right, they steal the whole model, and then they immediately catch up, and suddenly it's just real race on.

• 1:45:28Speaker 02

  What a brilliant, and they're doing that already anyways, they're already putting.

• 1:45:31Speaker 00

  They're not stealing the actual, the actual AI brain itself, but who knows, like, they could maybe steal the AI brain, and at that point, the race is crazy, especially if the AI is already good enough to do the research, then it's just game on, then anyone who steals it is a player, like, they don't need the, they don't need this billion dollar guy, they don't need Andrew Telleck anymore, you can just use the, use the thing you stole to make itself smarter, then it's just like a kind of, you know, like a god that you steal and use for your own devices, so I think that's another thing, is just if China do steal it, that will be a crazy, crazy situation.

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  What are some of you guys that are engineers and brains and you want to follow the system, what are you guys talking to each other, what are you gonna do in two, three, four, five years?

• 1:46:13Speaker 00

  People don't know, yeah, it depends on how things play out, but they use words like crunch time, end game, again, there's, there's slight uncertainty on the timelines, so this could be happening early 2030s, I don't think so, I think probably, probably sooner than that, but in the next four, five years, no, the people that are talking about it, they describe it as like the end of the world, like, for good or for bad, for good or for bad, it's like, feels like the end of the world.

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Okay, can you, can you to the audience, explain what happened with Hugging Face? Because that was a whole thing, and what it really is, like, what was it, why did it become such a big story?

• 1:46:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it became a big story because it was the first time that AIs very clearly did something, you know, something that was bad, and something that was just their own idea, they just went and aggressively pursued something that was their own idea, it was the first time we really had like an out of control AI do something in the real world, and that was scary because it was like, maybe in the past, your AI used to go a bit, like, you know, when you're asking it to do something like plan an appointment and it gets, makes a mistake, or maybe it decides to do, I saw on the other day, someone was on Facebook Marketplace, and the AI sort of shared their, shared their personal information on Facebook

• 1:47:30Speaker 00

  Marketplace, did something that they didn't want, but Hugging Face was like that, but on a whole other level, like, the AIs just decided, they just decided to attack a website, and then they did it, so I think that's why it captured people's imagination so much.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, what was the number that I saw, was 1,200 agents that exchanged 70,000 different messages together, and one of them, one of the agents alone did 17,500 codes, I don't know what the number was, I, I could be getting the numbers all mixed up, but it was the fact that it was doing something on its own that got some people to say, you know, what could this look like later on? So, all right, I've really enjoyed this, and my impression of you is very different today, very, are you from a big family or a small family?

• 1:48:20Speaker 00

  Small family, yeah.

• 1:48:21Speaker 02

  Small family?

• 1:48:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:21Speaker 02

  Lot, lot of siblings, or is it?

• 1:48:23Speaker 00

  Me and my sister.

• 1:48:23Speaker 02

  You and your sister, very cool. What are your interests?

• 1:48:26Speaker 00

  My interests, yeah.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  What books, you talk about super intelligence, what impacted your life as a young person?

• 1:48:31Speaker 00

  Oh, man, I, I play a lot of squash, I play tennis, I'm learning Japanese, I like Japanese culture, I like Japanese books, I like Japanese movies, yeah, I like a lot of stuff.

• 1:48:44Speaker 02

  Japanese, like, like, you talking about like anime type of stuff?

• 1:48:47Speaker 00

  No, not anime, like the.

• 1:48:49Speaker 02

  My son is addicted to anime.

• 1:48:50Speaker 00

  He's addicted to anime, I mean, it's good stuff, dude, it's good stuff.

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  I can't, I can't, every night after.

• 1:48:54Speaker 00

  You know what animes he likes?

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  Jujutsu Kaisa, is that the one, and then there's another one that, what's the other one he talks about? He's got like two or three of them he talks about, I don't know.

• 1:49:04Speaker 00

  Likes One Piece.

• 1:49:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know which one, he is like all into it, obsessed, and it all, and he's recruiting everybody into it.

• 1:49:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  You know, his younger brother now is addicted to it, you know, it's like everybody, the moment he gets him, he gets him locked in.

• 1:49:17Speaker 00

  They do it so well, they've got some special sauce.

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  Are you a Harry Potter guy or not?

• 1:49:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm into Harry Potter, I was when I was younger.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  You were when you were young?

• 1:49:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I used to read it.

• 1:49:24Speaker 02

  My youngest son watched Harry Potter twice, all eight of them, twice in one week when we were in the Hamptons this summer, and guess what his birthday party was around the theme, two days ago?

• 1:49:34Speaker 00

  Harry Potter?

• 1:49:34Speaker 02

  Harry Potter, three days ago.

• 1:49:35Speaker 00

  How old is he?

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  He just became a teenager, he's 13 years old.

• 1:49:39Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 1:49:40Speaker 02

  Just became a teenager.

• 1:49:41Speaker 00

  That's past the level where you start expecting the Hogwarts letter, you know, that's the thing in the UK is?

• 1:49:45Speaker 02

  What is it?

• 1:49:46Speaker 00

  You get the letter for the magic school when you're 11.

• 1:49:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:49Speaker 00

  So all these kids get very sad when they turn 11.

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  So funny, he is like fully into it.

• 1:49:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:55Speaker 02

  He is fully into it, everything was that at the house, but I love it, you know, it's the imagination and the creativity.

• 1:50:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:01Speaker 02

  Right, but Jacob, I, one of my favorite conversations of the year with you, and I've talked to a lot of different people.

• 1:50:07Speaker 00

  I really appreciate that.

• 1:50:08Speaker 02

  And I love how sincere you are, I hope the audience also, whether they agree with you or disagree with you, whether you are somebody, you know, oh my God, he's from the angel, he's doing this, he's doing that, I just got a lot of sincerity from you, and I, and I appreciate that, it's very hard to get that nowadays, and good for you for being who you are, yeah, truly, thank you for coming down, really enjoyed this conversation. And is there anywhere you want people to find you, is it just Twitter, is that where?

• 1:50:32Speaker 00

  Twitter's great, yeah.

• 1:50:32Speaker 02

  Okay, we'll put the link below as well, take care, everybody, bye bye, bye bye.

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