This Pastor Wants ONLY Christians in Power | PBD Podcast #846

Patrick Bet-David sits down with Joel Webbon, senior pastor of Covenant Bible Church and founder of Right Response Ministries, whose growing influence in the New Christian Right has made him a controversial voice in American Christianity. Webbon lays out his vision for a more explicitly Christian America, arguing that believers should pursue political power and explaining what he would do with it. The conversation challenges his views on race, immigration, Israel, Islam, and marriage, before turning to the deeper divide over liberalism, Protestantism, Catholicism, and the future of the Christian Right. 👞 GET THE FLB1's: https://bit.ly/4mC4uf6 🎟️ SECURE YOUR 2026 VAULT TICKETS: https://bit.ly/4xU2SCW ▶️ SUBSCRIBE TO NXR Studios: https://www.youtube.com/@NXRStudios ✝️ BUY A TICKET FOR THE CHRIST IS KING CONFERENCE: https://bit.ly/4g5YpWL 🧑‍💻 VISIT THE DAILY WIRE: https://www.dailywire.com/ 🧢 SHOP THE BLACK & GOLD FUTURE LOOKS BRIGHT HAT: https://bit.ly/4pe7gZh 🦁 SPONSOR THE VAULT 2026: https://bit.ly/4mFBPpw Ⓜ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj 🇰 KALSHI: http://kalshi.com/pbd SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @BetDavidConsulting @ValuetainmentComedy ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is the last shining beacon, the city on a hill of freedom. If we lose America, where are we gonna go?

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Okay, so you said you want power. What do you want to do with that power?

• 0:09Speaker 00

  We do not have to wait for the next George Whitfield or Jonathan Edwards to change before we're allowed to have common sense policy.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  How do you get that level of?

• 0:18Speaker 00

  What I can do is I can influence people. And one of them, one day, by the grace of God, might be president.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  You're trying to use that same strategy of minority idea to get to majority of Americans?

• 0:32Speaker 00

  You want to talk about who has an uncontested victory? It's the ideology of liberalism. My memory goes back more than just 15 minutes ago.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  I remember 2020 through 2024. Those were dark times.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Do not worry.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  You've also made some comments about?

• 0:47Speaker 00

  Interracial marriage?

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Interracial marriage. Tell me about that.

• 0:50Speaker 00

  Every single relational arrangement you could possibly even conceive of is represented in media, except for the one that produces white kids. I think they want less white people.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Is there anybody you wouldn't accept to come to your church?

• 1:05Speaker 00

  Mainly black people.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Just kidding. What's your position on Catholicism?

• 1:11Speaker 00

  I know my Catholic listeners will hear this. They'll be like, oh, that's so insufferable. And you're being so gay.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Catholics say, stop being gay. Maybe that's a compliment from them.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  God in heaven wrote a book. And that book is true whether Joel Webbon was ever born or not.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Divorce is a wealth killer, and that's not even the topic of discussion today. We're not even talking about that, but I like anybody that has four plus kids. You've got five with a sixth on the way, four girls, one boy, and you're gonna find out what the sixth is.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  God bless you guys and your family. Joel, I asked some friends yesterday who are pastors. I said, what do you think about Joel? Let me tell you. No, no, it's like, let me tell you. Good communicator, but some of the stuff he says is divisive. What do you think about Joel? I actually like some of the stuff he talks about. Really? Yes, I think, I think we need to talk about some of these topics. I said, great, he's gonna be on the podcast. Fantastic. So Joel, for the audience that doesn't know you, you know, why don't you share a little bit about your background as well as what your core beliefs are that gets you in trouble sometimes?

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Sure, yeah. Well, first, thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Thanks for coming down.

• 2:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I, I just turned 40 years old and I feel it in my bones. I feel like I'm.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Do you really?

• 2:35Speaker 00

  I feel like I'm getting older, yeah. So I've actually made some changes. I, by God's grace, in the last few months, I lost 30 pounds and so like.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:43Speaker 00

  So I, in some ways, I feel better because I'm more disciplined, but I just recognize none of it comes. It's no, it's no longer the default setting. I gotta work. So that's all right. But, um, so I'm, I'm married. My wife, Meghan, is, other than Jesus Christ, she's the greatest blessing that I've received in this life. She has given to me five kids and a six is in the oven, still baking, and so we're excited about that. I was adopted as a baby. I never met my biological parents. So I, you know, my, my biological father, all I know about him is, you know, it was a hit and run. So I, I come from a.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Mom or dad? Not met mom or dad?

• 3:20Speaker 00

  No, haven't met either of them. I think, I think the birth mom, I mean, she, obviously she didn't abort me. She, she wanted me to live. She wanted Christians to adopt me. I'm super grateful for that. So I think she's a good woman. I think in her mind, it was probably just not wanting to interfere, not wanting to confuse me, wanting, you know, and I, I kind of appreciate that because I don't, I don't want two families. Like I have a mom and dad. I've known them my whole life. They're the ones that raised me. They're the ones that have loved me. So I'm kind of grateful for her choice to obviously love me enough to give me up, to ensure that, you know, good, good family would adopt me, but then also back away. I bet that was probably hard for her, and so I'm grateful for that.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  But my, my dad, he was a pastor my whole life, so raised as a PK, pastor's kid in the charismatic church. So my dad, he was never like crazy charismatic, you know. Think of like Benny Hinn, you know, knocking people with your jacket and they're falling over, you know.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  He wasn't that gifted.

• 4:22Speaker 00

  He, he would, yeah, he didn't have that.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  All right, that's a special gift.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  That's a special anointing. He never had. But, uh, but anyways, but he was a reason, I would say like a reasonable charismatic, loved the Bible, taught me the Bible, great father. My mom and dad are actually members of my church. They, you know, every Sunday evening, we do like game night. They come over, read to the grandkids, and then me and my wife, and then we stay up, play board games. So really close to my family, grateful for that, raised charismatic, shifted my theology in college, became more reformed Protestant, began to be turned on by guys like Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, in that vein. And, um, and so theological transitions happened in my twenties

• 5:09Speaker 00

  and continue to happen, but a lot of them in my twenties. But then cultural and political transitions happened in my thirties, where I began to just look at our country and realize it's, it's never anything less than the Lord Jesus Christ, Reformation, like we need revival. It's revival or bust. We need hearts and minds changed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel, the Great Commission to go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It's, it's preaching Christ, Him crucified, His life, death, resurrection. It's nothing less than that. And that's one of the biggest, you asked me like the controversies.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  One of the biggest criticisms I get is you've moved on from the gospel. You, um, you're, it's not less than the gospel, but, but this is what I realized in my thirties, is I realized you don't have to have, God may do it, and I pray that He does. You have to wear different hats. You have to think in categories. So as, as a father, as a husband, as a pastor, I'm doing the work of an evangelist. I, I'm, I'm seeking to make disciples. I'm preaching word and administering sacrament on the Lord's day. That's what I do in that realm as a pastor in the church. But here's the deal. I hope that God sends revival. I hope that 50% of the population of America plus one becomes regenerate and born again by the Spirit.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  But the mentality that so many Christians, well-meaning Christians have, that that is an absolute prerequisite in order to have a country, a functioning country. I think that premise is wrong. Japan is not 50% plus one regenerate Christians. And yet they still have some semblance of order. They, they still, they have a country. So there are actually policies that can be implemented. And the thing that honestly convinced me is looking at the enemy's playbook. So when I think of LGBT, LMAO mafia, you know, the, the Rainbow Jihad. When I, when I look at them and their tactics, they took, it's not like they started with 75% of the population.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  They started with 3% of the population and in 40 years with a well-organized minority, were able to replace the American flag with a rainbow. Highly successful, highly successful with a minority. What that proves, what Democrats have proved time and time and time again, is that you don't actually have to have a majority in order to implement ideas.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Okay, so go a little bit deeper there. So because of that, you're thinking, you're trying to use that same strategy of a minority idea to get to majority of Americans?

• 7:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I want power. Oh, that's terrible. That's like, power is not a vice. Neither is it a virtue. Power is a tool.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  You want power?

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, a hammer can build a house or it can crush a man's skull.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  Power is not inherently evil or righteous.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  It's a tool. It depends who wields it. Is it for the glory of God and the good of His people, or is it with evil sinister intentions? I, and when I say I, more broadly, not just me, but I, I want Christians who love the Lord Jesus Christ to have power. And I think Christians have opted out of politics. They've opted out of culture. They've opted out of wealth. They've opted out of business. They, they've opted out of all these realms of power because they've been, they've been convinced that power is icky. And, and so in order to be spiritually pure and, and to have a clear conscience before the Lord, not objectively, but subjectively, because they've been deceived, they actually think that they're doing a service to God

• 8:46Speaker 00

  by opting away from the halls of power. Part of this is their eschatology, right? That's a doctrine of the end times because of dispensationalism, pre-millennial dispensationalism. If Jesus is coming back next Thursday, then what's the point in running for office? What's the point in storing up generational wealth? But the Bible teaches a good man leaves an inheritance, not only for his kids, but his grandkids. So I, I think, all that back to what I was saying just a moment ago. I think that, yes, we want the majority of the population to be genuinely Christians because I, I don't just want a temporal blessing for my fellow Americans, but I want their eternal blessing. I, I don't want them just to have 80 years of prosperity and peace and then go to hell.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  So yet it's never less than the gospel. But it must be more than just the gospel. And, and it's not all intertwined. We, we have to think in categories. So the church, as a private Christian man, sharing the gospel with my neighbor. As a pastor, preaching the gospel from the pulpit. But, but I'm not only a pastor. I'm never less, but I'm not only a pastor. So I, I'm also a citizen of the United States with a political obligation. And in that realm, I'm still a Christian. That follows me wherever I am. But a Christian in politics is different than a Christian in the pulpit. And so when I'm thinking politically, when I'm thinking culturally, nationally,

• 10:11Speaker 00

  I, I want to fully recognize and convince other Christians that we do not have to wait. Maybe God sends revival, but we do not have to wait for the next George Whitfield or Jonathan Edwards to change half of the country's hearts and minds before we're allowed to have common sense policy. Before we're, like, we don't have to have the whole country born again in order to say, hey, you know what? We probably shouldn't import half of Haiti.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  That's just like Japan is not Christian, but they know not to do that. Japan can just think the light of nature. We've God has spoken, he's written two books. We have revealed that God's revealed will in scripture, special revelation. But then we also have the light of nature. We have general or natural revelation. And that's why non-Christian people, although at the level of the heart, there's hostility towards God. Romans eight says that. But but outwardly in terms of their actions, behaviors and even speech, they can a non-Christian can can can innovate. They can find a cure for cancer. They can do, build a suspension bridge.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  They can do incredible things because they're made in the image of God. So Japan, not being Christian, can still somehow have a functional country with common sense because they're rational beings, human beings made in the image of God. And so I want Christians in America to recognize, look, it's both and it's not either or. It's both and as as Christians in the church in that category, preach the gospel, do the work of an evangelist, make disciples. But also as still Christians, but Christians as citizens of these United States. Let's think strategically. Let's be political. We don't have to wait on a move of the spirit in order to pass common sense legislation.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Okay, so you said you want.

• 12:02Speaker 03

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• 13:13Speaker 01

  And power, what do you want to do with that power?

• 13:16Speaker 00

  I want.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  How do you want to use that power?

• 13:17Speaker 00

  I want Christian laws.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Such as?

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I have my, I have my wish list.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Tell us.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  My top tier. I think there should be blasphemy laws. So free speech. I think that free speech is wonderful and terrible at the same time. Both.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  Absolute free speech. I don't believe was the the real intention of the founders. Right? If we're going to get back to the constitution as a set document, you have to get back to authorial intent. And even looking at the first amendment, you have to read it in the context of those who wrote it. The way that they perceived what they were writing at the time that it was written. The idea of absolute free speech, that you can say, that you can blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ publicly.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Is your main concern blasphemy of Lord Jesus Christ? That's your.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  So you're okay if I say the N word?

• 14:11Speaker 00

  The N word should not have laws against it.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  So meaning it's okay to say that.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Me personally, I don't use that word.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  No, no, I know you don't, but you don't have a, so you're the the specific part about blasphemy to you is if I say God, you have a problem with that. If I say anything about, okay.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  That's all right. Well, and if I can explain that real quick, here's a simple explanation. There should be a distinction because the Bible makes a distinction between sins and crimes. So you get plastered drunk in your home. And at 3am, you're, you know, dancing in your living room, listening to, you know, some degenerate rap naked. That's a sin.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  It's a pretty good weekend for some people.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Maybe, maybe.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  But that's a sin.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  It's not a crime. So I don't want a police state. So I don't want coveting, right? It's the 10th commandment, thou shalt not covet. That's a sin. But even the Old Testament, Old Covenant Israel, it was a sin. It was never a crime. When is coveting punished by the state? Well, it's actually a simple answer. Coveting shifts from the realm of mere sin into the realm of being both sin and crime. The moment that coveting overflows into theft, murder. I covet and therefore I'm acting upon it and stealing. Or I I covet, you have something I want, and I'm now going to act on it with murder. And I'm going to kill you and take it. Well, now it's a crime. So same kind of thing. So idolatry, the first commandment, have no other gods before me.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  I don't want a police state that's going into people's private homes and rounding them up for not being Christians. Right? Whether it be Muslims or Jews or whatever. At the same time, outside of Houston, in my home state,

• 15:54Speaker 00

  there is a 90-foot-tall abomination, a Hindu statue. I think that that that should actually be a crime. It should not be allowed in America. Why? Because we love America and we want it to be blessed. And God does not bless public overt displays of idolatry.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  This guy right here?

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's it.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  And that's right outside of Houston?

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Okay, so what?

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Not great.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  What would you want to see the punishment of blasphemy be if you had the power?

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, so biblically, this is really important for people to understand because a lot of, you know, your Reddit atheist, you know, is going to be like, well, the Bible says, you know, and they don't understand the Bible. They don't understand the Bible. So first biblical law in the Old Testament breaks up into three categories. So there's the moral law, which is binding and immutable. Immutable means unchanging. Right? So it was wrong to murder in the Old Testament. It's still wrong to murder today. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Behold, I'm the Lord, I change it not so that you, the sons of Jacob, are not consumed. So moral law of God, immutable. Then the second category, there are ceremonial laws. Hand washings, animal sacrifice, robes and tassels in the temple, these kinds of things.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Ceremonial cleanliness. This is a type in shadow that was meant to point forward as a precursor, a symbol to the true substance, which is fulfilled in Christ. Right? So all these things about washings and and the lamb that is slain, the burnt bull offerings, all this is pointing towards Jesus. Because Jesus has come, we no longer do these things. And it's not because we're lax, it's because we're no longer supposed to do these things. They pointed towards Christ. So ceremonial law in the Old Testament, I don't want to bring that back. I think that it would be wrong, actually immoral to bring it back because it would actually make a statement that that we view the the perfect sacrifice of Christ as insufficient, right?

• 17:50Speaker 00

  He's the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, slain once for the world. And God the Father saw that and said, it, I am satisfied. It's enough. So ceremonial law, that's done. Moral law, that's immutable, unchanging. It's still in play. Last one is civil law. Right? You got to have a parapet, right? A border around the roof of your house in Israel. Why? Well, it's contextual. They don't have HVAC, right? Summer months, it's hot, they're sleeping on the roof outside. Well, we don't do that. So I don't think that we should have police, you know, going and fining people for not having a border around the roof of their house. But here's the deal, when it comes to the civil laws, those are particular to Israel. So they're not, they shouldn't be picked up and dropped wholesale on America in the year of our Lord 2026, one-to-one ratio.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  But what's the general equity, right? You're reading Aesop's fables and you're, what's the moral of the story? Right? And you're teaching that to your kids. There's a an undergirding moral principle that's transcendent. Well, what's the moral of the principle of a border around your roof? The the preservation of and the dignity of of human life. Okay, so we don't do the parapet around the roof, but we have speed limits because we have motorized vehicles. We have seat belts. We have, I think that's an appropriate application. Right? So three different branches of law. Moral, that's eternal, immutable, binding forever. Then you have civil, the civil, you have to do not a one step, but a two step. The civil, you got to say, well, what's the general equity?

• 19:19Speaker 00

  The overarching moral principle within this civil code? And find that and then apply it with prudence and wisdom to your context, your culture today. And then the ceremonial has all been fulfilled in Christ. So what do I think the appropriate punishment should be? All that being said about the Old Testament, when you look at not just the laws in the Old Testament, but the penalties, I believe that the only sin, which is also a crime, sin and crime, that must be that mandates capital punishment, the death penalty, is murder. The Noah covenant, Genesis, chapter nine, if you take a man's life, you forfeit your own. That one mandates, God says, you must put that man to death who commits murder.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  There's a ton of other ones like breaking the Sabbath. And you'll see the penalty listed is capital punishment, but but not mandated. So I see it as all these other crimes, lower crimes than than murder, listed in the Old Testament, that mention capital punishment. Some of them do, some of them don't, but mention capital punishment as a penalty. I see that as not mandated, but permissible as a, it's the highest penalty that could be inflicted. So like in the state of Texas, you'll see signs, don't mess with Texas, which by the way, Texas has fallen, you can absolutely mess with Texas. But don't mess with Texas if you litter. It can be punished up to whatever, you know, two years in jail or a $5,000.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  I don't know anybody doing hard time for throwing a Coke bottle out the window. I don't, I don't have any friends, never known anyone in my entire life, 40 years of living, who currently, right now, is in prison for throwing an empty bag of Cheetos out the car. Right? So it's it's a maximum penalty. It could be legally implemented, but but it's a maximum. It doesn't, it's not that it must be. So all that back to blasphemy. Somebody is in a movie theater and says, Jesus, you know, like some scary part of the movie, and they take the Lord's name in vain. I believe that's a sin. I don't think that that should be punished. The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence? Having some guy paint himself with fake blood, pretending to hang on a cross

• 21:30Speaker 00

  while women dressed as nuns are gyrating in front of him on the street in front of children? Yeah, you go to jail. Absolutely.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Jail is what the punishment is?

• 21:39Speaker 00

  I think that that should be the either a steep fine or jail.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  So I'd like to go through the next few fairly quickly if you're able to. So first one blasphemy laws. Got it. Using Lord's name in vain. Beautiful, the way you broke it down, moral law, ceremonial law, civil law. If you had power, what else would you want to do with it?

• 22:01Speaker 00

  So there's 10 commandments. That's broken up into two categories, first and second table of the law. The first four of the 10 commandments deals with our obligation to the Lord. Jesus boils this down as summary law as the first and greatest commandment. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Well, how do we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind? It's strength for ways. Have no other gods before me. Do not make any graven images. Don't take the Lord's name in vain and remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. So in that regard, with that first one, have no other gods before me. Obviously, John Calvin said that the heart is an idol-making factory. At the level of the heart inward sin, we are constantly producing idols that we trust

• 22:45Speaker 00

  and treasure more than Christ all the time, myself most certainly included. There are constantly moments where instead of trusting in Christ, I'm hoping and banking on something else, and I have to repent of that. Lord, the Holy Spirit can fix me. I'm sorry, Lord, help me to trust in Christ and Him alone and not just in a retirement account or whatever it is, right? So that happens all the time. That's sin, but that's not a crime. One of the ways to determine the distinction between sins and crimes is private versus public. Private versus, so you're drunk at home? Okay, that's one thing. You're drunk behind the wheel of a car? That's another, right? You say Jesus Christ in vain at home? That's one thing.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Sisters of perpetual indulgence in a parade, public, that's another, right? So the Sabbath, somebody at home is sweeping the floor. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get autistic, right? I'm not gonna, well, actually, you should go to jail. Like, I'm not, I'm, people think I'm crazy, I'm extreme. I'm actually, I think, a reasonable moderate is what I, how I would describe myself. So no, that, that person should not be penalized. It's not a crime. But the fact that every business in America in the public square is open on Sunday, that actually incentivizes the citizens of our country to forego church? Mandated church attendance? No.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  But economically, setting the conditions that are more conducive to church attendance? Yes. I think that that would be positive. So that's in the first category, our obligation to the Lord, the first four commandments. That, that's what I would do. And then graven images like the Hindu statue, things like that. And then the second table of law, love your neighbor as yourself. That's commandments five through 10. Honor thy father and mother. Do not murder. Do not commit adultery. So adultery, I'll use that one. I think that adultery is not only a sin, I think it should be a crime. And I don't know if you know this about me, but I, you know, one of the things that always comes up online, so everybody knows, I have no problem saying it. It's public information at this point. But I, you know, when, when I was first trying to plant a church in California, I was 23

• 24:53Speaker 00

  years old, retarded, absolutely stupid, and, and had no business trying to plant a church. I was a LARPing wannabe, you know, church planter. The reality is, at that time, I was leading a glorified Bible study for about 25, 30 people, all of them single, all of them in their twenties, and I was single in my twenties on Sunday evenings. Pretty much everybody went to an established church in the morning and then came to us as like a supplemental singles ministry. I dated a girl. I slept with that girl. That's sin. But it wasn't adultery. And I'm not saying that to make light, I'm saying it to make a point.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  That sin is a serious sin. It nailed Jesus to the cross. I would, there's only two ways to deal with that sin. Me in hell forever under the wrath of God, and it would be just. Or Jesus taking the wrath of God, drinking the cup, the full cup, as my substitute in my place for that sin. So I'm not making light of that sin. I'm simply saying that it is still objectively true. There's a distinction between fornication, that would be the biblical label for sex outside of marriage, versus adultery. In these United States, right? I'm not like, it's not like I'm saying, we gotta get back to the 400s. You know, we gotta get back to Constantine. I like Constantine, but I, I'm not even saying that. I'm saying, no, this is not just true as it pertains to Christian history.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  It's true as it pertains to American history. There were penalties for adultery. No-fault divorce and the fact that you can cheat on your spouse and having cheated on your spouse, you can then divorce the spouse, the cheater can then divorce their spouse and in a court of law, get half of the stuff or even the majority? That, that is not just sinful. I think it's criminal. You commit adultery. I'm not saying you should be put to death. The Bible lists that as a, again, maximum penalty. I don't think the Bible says it must be applied. But if someone commits adultery, I would say that that is actually not only a sin, but a crime. And what it does, according to the words of Christ, is it doesn't mandate that the offended

• 27:05Speaker 00

  party has to divorce, but they can divorce if they choose to. Or they can also try to work it out by the power of God and the grace of the gospel. But, but they can divorce. They can do so with a clear conscience before the Lord. It's not sin. And, and legally, the court should say, you're choosing to press charges? You're choosing to divorce? Your spouse committed adultery? It's been proven, right? Not just, I have a feeling, but proven? It's not just the wife goes to sleep, I dreamed that you cheated on me. Now, we don't do that. This was proven in court of law, two or three witnesses. Okay, you can divorce, because that's not no-fault, there's a fault, and you get everything. That dude or that chick, destitute. You get the kids, you get the house. What would that do, right?

• 27:49Speaker 00

  So I'm always thinking of like, not just what's right in the sight of God, but also when God says something is moral or right, it's not arbitrary. It's not capricious. The right thing is designated as right by the Lord because it's also the good thing that brings about the most blessing. What would it do for our country to get rid of no-fault divorce? And to actually have, you get more of what you incentivize, you get less of what you criminalize, right? What would it do for the country to say, we're going to incentivize marital faithfulness and penalize adultery? How many kids would not grow up in broken homes? How many, like, how would that not be good? That's not a crazy position.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up. Required compatibility and availability varies. 18+

• 29:25Speaker 05

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• 29:41Speaker 01

  I don't think it's a crazy position. So, okay, I'm tracking with everything you're saying so far. You've also made some comments about that if I were to say the ones that got you in trouble the most, trying to see which one it was. Something about-

• 29:58Speaker 00

  Interracial marriage is a big one.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Interracial marriage. Tell me about that. Tell me why your challenge is with interracial marriage.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this is what happened. This is the lore, the story. There's a woman, right? That's how every story starts. There's a woman. That's how the Book of Genesis starts. There was a woman. Anyways, all right. The point is, there's a woman who kind of incessantly follows me online. She's got like 80,000 followers, something like that. So it's not just like, you know, somebody with 47 followers or whatever. And she kind of, I would say, you know, a couple times a week. Lately, I think she's backed off, and I praise God for that. And I hope I'm not stirring it up again. God bless her. I don't have ill will towards her. I don't hate her, anything like that. I think she's a Christian. I think she's confused about some things. But anyways. So she's just kind of pestering me.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Anything I say, you know, she's retweeting it and saying, you know, Joel's terrible, and this is bad for this reason, or whatever. So there's another guy. He posts, under Christian nationalism, this is the post, interracial marriage will be punishable by death.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  I do not post that. I don't believe that. Some other guy posts that, has nothing to do with me. I've never spoken to this guy, I don't know this guy, I'm not gonna name him, cuz I don't wanna do the performative denouncements, I don't think that's helpful. But he posts this, and then somebody retweets him, a pastor, and says, Elon Musk, can you make an exception on this one post and show us who likes it? Cuz it's Twitter, after all, so that post gets thousands of likes. Thousands of people come out and like this provocative, extreme post. And so this pastor, another guy, he says, Elon shows who like this post. And then this woman, back to her, she comments and says, well, for sure, Joel Webbon.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  And I just, you know, I probably let her get the better of me, probably should've just left it alone. But in a moment of weakness, despite my better judgment, I'm like, that's it. This woman's been pestering me for about two years at that point. And so I come out and I say, nope, just one word, nope. I didn't like it, I don't agree with that. And then, so then she responds and says, tell us right now, are you for, a false dichotomy, in my opinion, and I shouldn't, it's a trap, and I fell for it, and that's on me. But she says, are you for or against? Only two options, for, that is encouraging, promoting, that's how I read that, or against, right, discouraging interracial marriage. And so I give a long write-up.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Now, I started, I started pretty snarky. And so a lot of people didn't even get past my first sentence. Again, that's on me. I say, I started by saying, this is a perfect example of why the average woman on social media is retarded. I think that's how I started. Now, I actually stand by that, but I don't think I should've written it. And just to clarify that, I don't believe the average woman is retarded. The average woman on social media, and I'm not talking about your grandma with, you know, sixty followers on Facebook, who's just, you know, keeping up with pictures of the grandkids. When I say on social media, what I meant by that, I could've done a better job or just left it out, clarifying, but, I mean, like, the woman who's very clearly trying to be a social media influencer.

• 33:13Speaker 00

  I think the average woman who's trying to be an influencer online is retarded. All of them? No. The average one? Yeah, I stand by that statement. So that's how I started, not the best start, cuz that, you know, just immediately turned people, soured them against me, and I did that, that's me. But then I go on and actually, actually very clearly and reasonably articulate my position. And I say this, verbatim, I said, interracial marriage, comma, although biblically permissible. That means it's not a crime, and not only is it not a crime, certainly not a crime punishable by death, it's also not a sin. Biblically speaking, church history for two thousand years, and the scripture itself, most importantly,

• 33:56Speaker 00

  has, has made it clear that interracial marriage is not a crime, certainly not a capital crime, and it's not even a sin. So interracial marriage, comma, although biblically permissible, comma, ordinarily, and this is what I say, ordinarily, goes against God's normative, regular, I use those kind of words, plan, design for nations, peoples, and cultures. In other words, I actually like the book of Revelation that says that the final state of the redeemed in heaven will be every tribe, tongue, and nation. Heaven will be diverse. I think that's good, right? Because if I live next to a bunch of black people in heaven,

• 34:41Speaker 00

  well, the black people in heaven won't be trying to steal my kids' bikes, right? These are redeemed black people, it's heaven, there is no more sin. It's great, it's great. I, I look forward to meeting my brothers and sisters from the Sudan, or from Ghana, or in heaven, in heaven. However-

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Not on earth.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Well, some of them, sure, I wouldn't mind meeting them in their country, but I don't want them all to come and live here. I, I believe-

• 35:07Speaker 01

  So what do you do with that, that that's already happened?

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Yes, already happened.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so the challenge then becomes, the founding fathers created it in a way where that ended up happening, whether they pictured that happening or not, they allowed certain people to win elections, who maybe allowed for immigration to open up a little bit. So now we're here. Your ideas of what you wanna do, how do you do that when you're already here? Do you go find a small town and live in and grow it, you know, and build it up where it's the way you want it to be? Do you go live in the boonies a little bit, away from everybody, to have a little bit of privacy, and then build it up? And build that town around you where you start off, cuz I know, like, I remember Frisco used to be a smaller town,

• 35:53Speaker 01

  less than five thousand people, and I think in Texas you need five thousand to be able to make it official to be a city. And I think ninety-four, I don't know what the year is, but Frisco becomes a city. And then today, there are a quarter of a million people living there, right? So do you go build your own Frisco and gradually build it up? Is that kinda-

• 36:08Speaker 00

  If you do that, and you, and you work hard, and you're successful, and God blesses your efforts, and the moment you begin to succeed, then everybody will move there. And it's the same problem all over again.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  So that's what you wanna do, or no?

• 36:21Speaker 00

  What I'm saying, you move to the boonies, or you start your own town, if you're successful, they eventually come, Sauron, Sauron, he will always eventually come for the Shire. There won't be a Shire. So, no, and that's, that's all the way back to my, my first point in, in today's episode, is-

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Blasphemy?

• 36:39Speaker 00

  No, power. It has to be real, objective, political power. It's not enough to just say, well, my town's been taken over by Haitians, or whatever, and so I guess now we'll move to, eventually, there's nowhere else to move. It's America or bust. This is the last, this is the, the shining beacon, the city on a hill of, of freedom of, if we lose America, where are we gonna go?

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Everybody, a lot of people agree with you there, that's not the question. The question is, your, your ideas of what you believe, okay, so, if I come to your church this Sunday, how many people will be in church?

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Like, how big is my church?

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Attendance, yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, two, two, two hundred to two fifty.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's just say I come to your church this Sunday. What will I see there? Will, will it be a hundred percent Caucasian? Would it be, okay?

• 37:33Speaker 00

  But if it was, praise God.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  No, no, there's nothing wrong with it, I don't really, I, I-

• 37:37Speaker 00

  But no, it's not.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  It's not, okay. So would the, would the idea for you be long-term to impose, to have power? So the only way you can really happen, when I talk to the president, and I told him, who has more power? Billionaires, you know, these guys that do this, is it the Congress? Is it Supreme Court? Is it president? Who, he says, nobody has more power than president, nobody. So is that eventually, that for you, to become a president, have power, so you can change laws?

• 38:07Speaker 00

  I don't think I would ever, like, here's the deal, man, people are, people, the most deceitful person in your life is you. So don't ever believe your own press, you know, you know this. I'm never gonna be, I, I wouldn't win. If I won one percent of the vote, that would be extraordinary. I'm not gonna win, I mean, maybe the Overton window continues to shift and things change, like, I'm, I'm not gonna count it out, but I, you gotta be realistic, that's a LARP. So no, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not running for president in twenty twenty eight.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  How do you get that power then? How do you get that level of power?

• 38:43Speaker 00

  What I can do is I can influence people. So I'm not gonna be president. It's not that I would never run, if I, if I thought there was a chance, maybe I would. So I'm not saying I don't want to be president, but I'm just, I'm, I'm a realist. But what I can do, what I can do is, by the power of God, is I can use whatever influence I have to continue to influence young men. And one of them, one day, by the grace of God, might be president. So, so power is, there's political power, there's monetary power, there's influential power, you know? And, and so I'm trying to, in whatever ways the Lord has gifted me, steward those gifts faithfully,

• 39:26Speaker 00

  faithful stewardship, to influence as many people as I can in, in what I believe the Bible says is the right direction.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Joe, who do you view as the enemy? Who's the enemy? Or who are the enemies?

• 39:38Speaker 00

  There are a lot of enemies.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Right, I wanna hear it.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  So it's, it's not as simple as, so, Israel is a huge problem. But here's the deal, like, some of these guys who, like, all they can talk about is Israel. I talk about Israel, a lot. But when Charlie Kirk was murdered, we can't forget, it was a bunch of white people. And they weren't all Jews. I'm, I'm looking at the TikTok videos, I'm looking at the physiognomy, I'm looking at the noses, the ear and the eye line, they're not all Jews, like, let's just be honest. There's a bunch of white people, white is the driven snow, European for fourteen generations,

• 40:16Speaker 00

  mocking, laughing, that a man who's a father and a husband is gurgling in a pool of his own blood. They love it. Who, who do I see is most likely to literally kill my wife and kids?

• 40:35Speaker 01

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• 41:20Speaker 00

  The left, liberals.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  White, black, brown liberals. So, the left is still an enemy. And I am not willing. So, my position is a little nuanced. It's different than some of the other America first kind. I would describe myself as America first. But I'm, I'm not going to forget. My memory goes back more than just 15 minutes ago. I remember. I remember 2020 through 2024. Those were dark times. Dark times. Churches closed. People just, all of a sudden, your YouTube channel just gone. Your business, done. Your grandparents, they die in the hospital alone. You can't even see them. Your kids, masked. They're literally speech impediments that still exist today because children's development was set back by years because of the policies and the tyranny. Right?

• 42:08Speaker 00

  So, I didn't, I didn't forget that. Joe Biden's not Jewish. Right? If he was, it'd be easy just to point, that's the problem. You know, so, one problem is simply the left. It's ideological. That said, there also are national enemies. And I do believe that Israel, nationally, not just ideology, but as a civilization, is opposed to the Christian West. I do believe that. That is, that's just historic. You look at the Catholic monarchs of Europe. Yeah, for centuries, for centuries, the diaspora, you know, these, these Jews in, in

• 42:48Speaker 00

  various places have, have hated Christ and Christian civilization. I'm not saying, it's not every single Stein. Right? I, you know, but...

• 42:59Speaker 01

  You don't think this is getting a little old? You don't think it's getting a little old?

• 43:02Speaker 00

  Of course it's getting old, but the question is, is it true?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so, if we go 2,000 years.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Or 1,500 years. Who, who have Christians had the most issues with, war with, that's caused us to unite?

• 43:19Speaker 00

  1,400 years, absolute slaughter with Muslims.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  So, that's another enemy.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  But, but notice that Israel came before that. Why, why do you think it's becoming so popular today? And what I'm starting to realize is, like, by the way, that topic, Israel, broke the Republican Party. Oh, my God.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  They did.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  And it broke the Republican Party because everybody said, well, this is what Charlie would have said, and here's where he was going. And they started speculating as if they talked to Charlie and he's dead, right? And here's what this person said, here's what that person said. And then all of a sudden, the people that are not that deep into it, they're like, oh, my God, that's who the enemy is. That's who the enemy is. And then it just became, and so I wonder behind closed doors, who's celebrating? Who's actually sitting there saying, oh, I'm so glad we got Joe. He's on our side. Oh, I'm so glad we got X, Y, Z and A, B, C. Oh, I'm so glad. Please keep saying it. We're winning, guys. American conservative movement that was super united 23, 24, 22, they are falling apart. We're winning.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  The West is gonna fall, right? They're celebrating. And then the, the messaging was over and over and over again. So, so far, your enemies that you're talking about, number one is the left. Great. Number two is Israel. Who else would you say is the enemy?

• 44:39Speaker 00

  Real quick, if we're saying number one, number two, I'm not triaging. So, that's, that's not a list of priority necessarily. This is the worst.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  You're just naming them all.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  I'm just naming them all.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Right. So, I'm not saying Israel is number two, or number one, or number three, so on, so forth. Uh, but Muslim, Islam, Islam is a formidable enemy of the church. Uh, the way that I, I say it is this, um, Muslims love a fake Jesus.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Muslims are fond of Jesus, but the Jesus that they're fond of is not the Jesus who exists. It's not the Jesus of scripture. He's a prophet. He's on par with Muhammad, but he's not divine. He is not the son of God incarnate. So, Muslims, um, like, when people say, well, Muslims actually, uh, love Jesus. Sure, but, but they don't love the real Jesus. So, I would say Muslims love a fake Jesus and will often kill Christians. Every Muslim? No, of course not. I'm not saying every Muslim is violent, but there are still places, not just for 1,400 years in history, but today, in the year of our Lord 2026, there are still places where Christians are being killed.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Not just persecuted, not just canceled off of social media, killed by Muslims. And we cannot, in our grievances with Israel, with Judaism, with Jewish supremacy, which are valid, and they have to be talked about. I think they have to be talked about. Is it getting old? Sure. But I think part of the reason it's such a big conversation is because nobody talked about it at all.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  No, I, I...

• 46:08Speaker 00

  For a very long time.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  At the beginning, I was like, wow, this is a real thing. Maybe this is what's going on. And then I see how small the numbers are. And I'm like, wait a minute. So, Qatar is putting $7.7 billion into our universities. They gave Cornell $1.8 billion. For what? To, because they love the school and they went there, or because they're trying to win political influence? And then how much is everybody else putting? I said Israel lost the war. If you, if you, if you're talking about the propaganda race.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  On any leader's bulletin, Israel lost.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Israel, tell me one place that Israel won. Nowhere. Tell me, tell me what place is Qatar is winning, or Qatar is winning. Tell me what place is China won. Tell me what place is... Israel got demolished. So, either they're not as smart as everybody makes them out to be. Okay? Either they thought they're too smart and they realized putting money into congressmen and senators wasn't the way to go, because you gotta get the youth, and they lost the youth. So, they're probably sitting around saying, man, we gotta change this propaganda plan that we have. Everybody's got propaganda. We got it, China's got it, everyone's got it. Christians got it, pastors got it, business owners got it. We all got it. Everyone's got it.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  But my God, if, if we were to score Israel on their propaganda strategy, it's an F- minus.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  It's an F-.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  So, okay, let me, there was a moment where I was having a lot of conversations with Muslims, and I was bringing them down because I wanted to have a conversation to see what things are we, do we have in common with? Where do you see where Muslims and Christians share an enemy, aside from Israel?

• 47:52Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, thehousemajoritypack.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 48:23Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

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• 49:36Speaker 00

  Well, it depends, because honestly, every major world religion, including both Christianity and Islam, has been liberalized. Liberalism is the reigning, you wanna talk about who won? Who's winning? Like, who has an uncontested victory? It's, it's the ideology of liberalism. And I, I describe liberalism as like, if it's like a car, the engine is egalitarianism. The heartbeat of liberalism is this, this wooden, insistent, uh, it doesn't bend, it doesn't flex, it doesn't, it's, it's egalitarianism all the way down. All the way down. And so, you know, like, if you're a conservative Christian pastor, you're like, well, we're not egalitarian, we only have male elders, you know?

• 50:20Speaker 00

  And we believe the husband, you know, in the, in the context of the home, should be the head of the wife. Uh, but meanwhile, you're fine with, you know, three-piece pantsuit boss babes, you know, leading in political office, you know, and other forms of society. Like, Supreme Court? Like, are there some, some douchebag guys on the Supreme Court who are gonna make terrible... Yes, uh-huh. But part of the reason, uh, birthright citizenship, um, we'll see. But I got a feeling, a lot of people have a feeling, it probably is gonna be upheld. Part of it is gonna be because we have four women on the Supreme Court that I don't believe should be there. That's an egalitarian liberal idea. So, there's egalitarianism as it pertains to race and sex.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  Uh, that everyone's equal, this blank slatism. You can do anything, you can be anyone, um, you know, not equal outcome, but equal opportunity. All that's a lie. All of it is a lie. So, that being said, back to the question, Christians, Muslims, um, there's probably a lot of common ground today between some Christians and some Muslims, but not because that common ground is inherent to the actual principles and tenets of the religions of Christianity and Islam. But instead, the reason why there appears, subjectively, to be so much overlap is because both religions have been thoroughly hijacked, hijacked by liberalism. Like, there's a ton of Muslims that would say, well, we're peaceful.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  And one of the reasons they're peaceful is because they're kind of soft on the Muslim piece and strong on the liberal piece. I mean, it's not that they want to be converted to Christianity.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Interesting point.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  It's not that they wanna be converted to Christianity. Like Iran, right? Iran, you know, it's, well, the people wanna be liberated. Yeah, but liberated unto what? Right? Like, like, God sets us free, right? The truth shall set you free. But, uh, Christian freedom is not a raw libertarian freedom, freedom to do whatever you want. It's the, it's freedom from bondage to Satan and sin, so that you might be liberated unto slavery to Christ.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Freedom to obedience, freedom to virtue. And that's not what the people in Iran are crying out for. They, they, they want a modern, Western liberal freedom. And you know what? So do most Americans. So do most Christians. And they don't even know it. It's like fish swimming in water. How's the water? What's water? You know, we're just swimming in egalitarian slop, in liberal slop. Whether you're a Christian in the West, whether you're the people in Iran, in the East, you know, whatever. And so because of that, sure, there's a lot of common ground we have, but most of the common ground we have, I would reject the very premise of it. And I would say that we shouldn't share that in common. It, it actually indicates compromise.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so do Muslims becoming more liberal minimize the threat of what Islamists have? Does it minimize the threat long-term of what a lot of conservatives fears from Muslims?

• 53:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. I think it does.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Right, because that, that, that does kind of make sense, because if-

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Liberal Muslims, if Iran became liberal, Christians in Iran would be treated better. So it would be a temporary improvement for the life of a Christian.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Tell me why, why is that?

• 53:48Speaker 00

  Because like, so this is where J.D. Hall, who's a friend, he writes for us with NXR Studios, the, the media organization that, that I'm a part of. He went on Tucker Carlson recently. There was like a 50-second clip. It was a, it was like hour, hour and a half interview. The, the whole thing was fantastic. But he said one thing in a 50-second clip. It just, that became the, the headline of the story is J.D. Hall's being soft on Islam, you know, and- That wasn't his point. That's not what he was trying to say. I know J.D. Hall. He has been ferocious against all false religions, including Islam, for decades. So the dude is not soft on Islam. That said, um, there's this moment where Tucker is asking a question about,

• 54:32Speaker 00

  has there ever been a time in, in, in Islamic history where, um, where they actually have not been beheading every single Christian and destroying every single holy site, you know, Christian holy site, and destroying every single church and blah, blah, blah? And so, you know, J.D. Hall's just simply trying to answer the question. And he talks about the Ottoman Empire. And it's not as though they had no atrocities, you know? But he's just saying during a, in a particular place, in a particular season of Muslim history, under the Ottoman Empire, you know, there was a church, I believe it was like the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, that the Ottoman Empire, which was Muslim, it was Islamic, they, you know, renovated or restored

• 55:16Speaker 00

  or helped to fix this Christian holy site a couple of times. And I looked it up, you know, and it's like, you can get particular, well, actually, technically, but he was generally right, generally correct in that statement. Here's the point, uh, back to your question. Why? Is that because Islam is inherently friendly to Christians? Or is it because the Ottoman Empire was actually, believe it or not, even though very old, was a little liberal? And what I mean by that is whether it's a Christian empire, or a Muslim empire, or a Jewish empire, whatever. The moment that you start to get empirical, what you're trying to do is expand your borders, right?

• 55:59Speaker 00

  Expand power, degrees of power, influence, which means that you're going to, by default, have a multicultural and multi-religious, religious plurality within the banners of your empire. And so you're going to necessarily, if you want to sustain that power, you're going to have to lighten up, loosen your grip a little bit on some of your religious ideology and allow for different religions to kind of coexist so that you can have the empire. Because you, you've kind of sold out for the economic prosperity and the political power. So you, you had to make a trade-off, right? That's what politics is. It's trade-offs. And so you made a trade-off on some of your religious ideologies.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  So the Ottoman Empire, which was Islamic, was a little softer in one place at one time towards some Christians. That's true.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  One time for like five minutes or?

• 56:50Speaker 00

  Not, not super long, not super long. So, but here's the deal. The problem is that, that this clip-

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Was that really the clip? The clip was that Ottoman Empire? Is this it, by the way, that you guys?

• 57:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can play it if you want.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, go ahead, let me see it. I want to see it.

• 57:04Speaker 09

  And their Muslim rulers didn't do that during the Ottoman period.

• 57:07Speaker 10

  Okay, so the answer is no. The Muslim rulers didn't tax churches during the Ottoman period. They were very kind to Christians. As a matter of fact, they took care of our holy sites. They had rebuilt Islamic authorities, rebuilt the Church of the Sepulcher three different times over the centuries. Um, they had a, a law protecting Christian pilgrims on their journey. Like, nobody messed with the-

• 57:38Speaker 09

  The Ottoman Turks, the Muslim rulers of the Holy Land rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher three times?

• 57:43Speaker 10

  Three times, yeah. Either completely rebuilt it or a major renovation. One time it caught on fire and they redid the, the roof. But if you've seen the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, you can imagine what it took to redo that.

• 57:55Speaker 09

  No, it's in their Muslim rulers.

• 57:57Speaker 10

  That's it.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  So the criticism is, is there?

• 58:01Speaker 00

  The criticism is that J.D. Hall is ingratiating himself with Muslims, being soft on Islam.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Well, the part I would say, the, well, the part I would say is the following. Here's, here's the problem. Say, say I kill two and a half million Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Okay, Bulgarians, whatever, you know? Say I do that with the Ottomans, you know, the Ottoman Empire, Turks. But I help 88 people with a building that I built. Guess what story I want to be told more?

• 58:33Speaker 00

  You make the footnote, the headline, and that's dishonest. I, I agree.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  And that's what probably upset a lot of people here.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Totally. I understand the frustration, but I also, knowing J.D. personally, I know what he believes.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  This isn't even towards J.D. I'm sure J.D.'s a nice guy. I don't know J.D. J.D.'s a-

• 58:47Speaker 00

  Great guy.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  You tell him he's a very good writer and he's done great work with you guys, so I trust that. No, I, I, but again, the cherry picking part of stories, to me, when I would sit down and I would talk to Muslims, I'm like, tell me where I would LGBTQ. We're deeply concerned about it. I talk to Mahdi Hassan, he's not. But your point, Mahdi Hassan is probably more liberal than he's a Muslim.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Okay? Yeah, so, so to him, when I asked and said, would you vote for a conservative Muslim? He said, no. I would vote for a liberal Christian more than I would vote for a conservative Muslim.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Because his true allegiance is to liberalism.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so then, so then, if that comes back to us, what would we say, though? If you ask that same question of a conservative, would you, would you vote for a conservative Muslim or a liberal Christian?

• 59:36Speaker 00

  I would not vote.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, I understand. You would, you would stay out of it, right? So, so then that becomes the challenge there. But, um, yeah, I mean, that story right here on, on what J.D.'s talking about. If you cherry pick, Tucker's cherry picking a story because he knows, and he probably got J.D. in trouble with some of the ways-

• 59:55Speaker 00

  He definitely got J.D. in trouble, but I got to say publicly,

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  Tucker has said some things, a little soft on Islam, not my fave. I talked to him a little bit about that, but let the record state, I love Tucker Carlson.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, I get, I get that. I get that, the fact, the market is filled with a lot of different voices.

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Uh, let me, let me ask, right? Is there anybody you wouldn't accept to come to your church?

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Um, mainly black people. I'm just kidding. So we, like, so back to the interracial marriage. The irony is that, because we live in the world as it is, right? So that's how you can tell a serious person versus somebody who's, who's just pretending. Um, real politics is the realm of the possible, not just the ideal. What can I do, given the lay of the land today, right? The circumstances that actually exist, dealing in, in the world of reality. So I live in, you know, outside of Austin, Texas. It's incredibly diverse, incredibly diverse. Uh, the gospel is for all people. Now, I think that a lot of people who are within a vicinity of my church, that, that politically speaking, so there's, there's categories, right? Two kingdoms, right? The kingdom of grace and the common kingdom, right?

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  Church, which is word and sacrament, those things higher, uh, those things which are eternal, our highest good, our eternal good, and then the temporal world. And we have to, as Christians, think, um, not in ways that contradict, but in ways that are still distinct, depending what category we're operating in. So in the political category, there's a lot of people in my area who should not be there. They shouldn't be in our country. That said, though, I don't have much control over that. They are here. And so anybody within a driving radius of my church, whether they should legally be here or not, if they want to come to my church on Sunday morning, they're not going to be disruptive, they're not going to be a, a threat, then of course, they're welcome. So my church has multiple interracial couples. They know my position.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  They watched the debate. They saw all the controversy. They agree with me. They've come to me and said, both husband and wife, and said, you know what? Yeah, our marriage, marriage is hard, no matter what, because you're taking a man and a woman who are very different and telling them to share the same bed, right? That's, marriage is a challenge. It is a challenge. My wife is so different than me. She thinks different, emotionally, like, it's not just we're physically different. We are psychologically different. We are emotionally different, mentally different, at every single level, all the way down. Egalitarianism is a lie. Liberalism is a lie. My wife and me, very different. So the differences are already going to make marriage a challenge.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  To add voluntarily, of your own volition, let's, let's add even more differences, right? Like interracial, and when I say interracial, by implication, I'm saying there's extra distinctions culturally, even language, like one of the men in my church, he cannot speak to his in-laws because they don't speak English. And he's like, yeah, Joel, this has been a challenge. And, and if you look at that man and say, um, do you regret it? He's like, no, I love my wife. Of course I love my wife. And I love my, my biracial children.

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  I would, I would die for them. I love them. But he agrees with me in saying, yeah, but here's the deal. What you said, Joel, it's biblically permissible, but it, it, it shouldn't be the ordinary normative pattern, God's design for peoples and cultures and nations. That's a perfectly reasonable position. And why did I feel it necessary to even say that? I've already admitted one of the reasons. One of the reasons is because I allowed myself to get trapped by an annoying woman. And that's on me. Moment of weakness online, I fired back on Twitter. Probably shouldn't have. But here's the second reason. That I regret. But I don't regret it all the way. Because here's the second reason. If we lived in a culture today where, where there wasn't, you, you just spoke of propaganda.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  Where there wasn't this like full incessant, a full court press of constant propaganda from media, academia, um, politics constantly pushing people towards marrying with other people, diversity, diversity, diversity. Then I probably wouldn't feel the need to ever say a word about the topic. You watch television, Patrick, and just watch the commercials. Do you, do you ever see a commercial with a white mom and a white dad and white children?

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  No, I mean, you know what they're doing. By the way, these are interesting stats. U S National Survey of Family Growth found that after 10 years of marriage, interracial couples, 41% had separated or divorced. Same race couples, 31% had separated or divorced. If you go a little bit lower, it says black husband and white wife tend to have the highest divorce risks among the combination study.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  Shocking.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  And then white husband, Asian wife tend to have the relatively lowest divorce rate. So maybe marry an Asian.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  I believe it. I might be an Asian supremacist. I don't know. I'm open to.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Hispanic, white and Asian white marriages often had divorce risks similar to those of the higher risk groups impairing ones. Other factors were taken into account. Interesting. Interesting to see that.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  Because, because here's the deal. We can't just live in the ideal. We, we are both body and soul. So there's a spiritual reality, right? And we have to as Christians, it's never less than that. But we are also, we're not gnostics. One of the earliest heresies in the church was gnosticism. That, that made it as though the spiritual and the eternal was all that mattered. The only significant thing, the only true thing. And that the body was not just of less account, but of no account. That the temporal world and our temporal physical lives, um, were, were nothing. That the body was actually just functioning as a prison containing and restraining the soul. And to be freed of the body was the ideal, which actually flies in the face as a contradiction to true Christian theology.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  That our final state will not be as spirits floating in the 17th dimension with Jesus. The final state, right? To be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord in spirit. But the final state is that Jesus will physically bodily return. And there will be the final resurrection. And my soul will be rejoined with my resurrected now glorified body. So that I will have both a spiritual and physical eternal existence with the Lord and his people forever. That's Christian historic orthodox doctrine. So as Christians, we can't be gnostics. We can't despise the temporal world. And when I speak of the temporal world, back to interracial marriage, here's one of the acknowledgements of the world as it actually exists, the world that God made. Similarities are helpful.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  Right? How do you have a high trust society? Well, one of the ways that you have a high trust society is you share more in common with your neighbors. You, you, you speak the same language, you have the same ideals, you even look similar. That helps. And if that helps at a societal level, would that not help in marriage? Does that mean that interracial marriage is therefore a sin? No. But, but to say that it should be the norm in every commercial on TV and like, that's where I'm like, that's enough.

• 1:07:02Speaker 03

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• 1:07:33Speaker 04

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• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Can you, can you pull up the chart you just texted me, guys? This is pretty wild.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  If you look at this chart, it shows spouse ethnicity, who they marry. Okay. And they got a bunch of different races. If you make it bigger to show it, it's actually very interesting. So the red, if you look at the right, red is white ethnicity. Black is blue. Then you got Hispanic is green, Chinese, you see the whole thing. And then on the top left, it shows white marrying a white male. Okay. Guess what? 86% of the time. A white male marrying a white female. They go for a white male. 88% of the time, 12% of the time, they don't. Black to black, you see the blue is blue. Okay. So black male marry 21% of the time white females. But black females, 19% of the time marry white males.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Hispanics is Hispanic, except for 22 to 28%, 26% they marry whites. Chinese is majority Chinese, many Chinese male do not marry white females. Only 11% of the time, but the Chinese female, 29% of the time will marry a white female, white male. Then you have the Indians predominantly with Indians, although Indian males will marry white females versus Indian females won't marry white males as much. Filipinos is Filipino. Filipino female is actually the third, uh, highest of what white males will marry. They'll marry white males, Filipino. And then you have Japanese and then you have Hispanics. So Latinos are the highest. 46% of the time they will get a white husband.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  The lowest one here is, which you may actually get excited about is Pakistani females don't marry too many white men. Although you may want that, you may want a lot of interracial marriages with Pakistani female.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  Not really, not particularly.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Not particularly. It's interesting when you see this. I, I married a white girl from Texas and I'm obviously, you know, Middle Eastern, Armenian, Assyrian and.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  But you're Christian.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  But I'm Christian. I mean, and, and no compromise.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  I'm not a race essentialist.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  I'm a religious essentialist.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  You're a Christian nationalist.

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  So, so religion comes first. Race is not everything, but it's also not nothing. And that's where liberalism lies to us.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Right, right. Values, principles, understanding, culture, all of that matter. And when you see a lot of these commercials, every commercial is a white man with a black girl or a black man with a white man. And they're, they're trying to do that a little bit too much. By the way, I want to show you a clip of Seth Rogen.

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  Real, real quick, can I say what I think the point of that is? Cause they'll, they'll do a black man and black woman. And they'll do Hispanic man and Hispanic woman. But if it's white, it's black, you know, black man, white woman. Or it could be two white people, but they're both dudes. Or they're both chicks, right? It's gay or lesbian. To me, I can't help but think like, when I think, what's the purpose? Every single relational arrangement you could possibly even conceive of is represented in television, in media entertainment. Except for the one biological, right? Not just relational, but biological arrangement that produces white kids. I think they just hate white people. I think they want less white people. That's what I think.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think white or conservative white, they don't mind the liberal white.

• 1:11:39Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  They don't mind the liberal white, they mind the conservative white. That, that's where the problem, they love Teller Rico. He's white, but he's a liberal. That's their hero. That's their next Obama, even though he's not black.

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  I'm in Texas, I see the sign.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  He's everywhere. Yeah, he's everywhere. We'll see what happened there. I want you to watch this clip of Seth Rogen with, uh, Stephen Bartlett from Diary of CEO. And in this context, they're talking about having kids. And as they get older, did they regret not having kids? Or, you know, do they sit there and say, we made the right decision? And you're someone who's got five kids, four girls, a son and one on the way is going to be the sixth. I want you to watch this clip. Go for it.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Reference to that, you don't have any kids.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  I do not. That has helped me succeed as well.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Definitely. Really? Oh, yeah. There's a whole huge thing I'm not doing, which is raising children.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  Would it, people, obviously, someone would be listening, but yeah, but it would make you happier. You know, someone might say that. I'm trying to rebuttal. I don't think it would. I've been around, obviously, a lot of children. I'm not, I'm not ignorant to what it's like to, I've, I've seen everyone I know has kids. I, I see, I'm a, you know, I'm 40 again, you know, like, it's not, I, I know, you know, I've, I've, some of my friends have had kids for decades, you know? Some people want kids, some people don't want kids. I think a lot of people have kids before they even think about it. From what I've seen, honestly, you just are told, you go through life, you get married, you have kids. It's what happens. And, and me and my wife were just, neither of us were like that, you know?

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  And, um, honestly, the older we get, the more happy and reaffirmed we are with our choice to not have kids. Like, it was something we kind of talked about more, and we were like, have we made the right choice? Are we sure? Now, if more than anything, the conversation is like, honestly, thank God we don't have children.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Thank God. I mean, do you even think he believes in God?

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  Of course not. So, uh, first, Jarvis, pull up an early life check on Seth Rogen.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  Okay. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  But then second, um, he, here's where he's fundamentally wrong, right out of the gate. The whole conversation has to do with his own personal happiness. Screw your happiness, right? Screw your freedom, right? We shouldn't say that, Arnold Schwarzenegger, but screw your happiness. Here's the deal. Everyone is living their lives as though their happiness is somehow the goal. Forget, this is where I think even America, and I love our founding. But I do think that one of the things that was baked into the pie from the beginning that did allow for some of the problems we have today is the exaltation of liberty above duty, virtue. It's not about, I did not have children because I thought they would make me happy.

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  Here's the thing, God is so merciful and kind. Turns out I was wrong, and so is he. He would be happier, and I am so much happier having children. But before I had kids, it terrified me. I didn't, I didn't say, babe, we've gotta have kids as soon as possible because I'm not happy and they'll make me happy. No, no, no. I was under the delusion, I was deceived. I thought this is gonna be so hard, it's gonna be so much work, it's gonna cost so much money. Even, even as a Christian.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  The other way around. So your concern was how hard it's going to be?

• 1:15:03Speaker 00

  That's right. That was my concern. But he, but then why did I do it? Why did I do it? Because I knew it was right. It wasn't about my happiness. Now, here's the thing, I was wrong. It actually made me happy because the right thing that God requires also ends up being the good thing that makes the heart of man glad. Because God is not capricious, he's not arbitrary, he doesn't just randomly, randomly say, these are the tenets of morality, and they also consequently, conveniently are the, the very things that will make you miserable and sad. No, God is a good God, a kind and loving God. The things that he says these are holy are also the things that make us happy. But I was delusional, I was deceived, thinking this is not gonna make me happy, but I did it anyways. Why?

• 1:15:46Speaker 00

  Because duty trumped delight. Because, because virtue trumped liberty. I knew that having children was important for the world, for society, for the kingdom of God, to raise up godly offspring. That Genesis commands, be fruitful and multiply. I understand some people biologically can't have kids, right? So I'm not saying that they're in sin. But, but ordinarily, speaking of norms, ordinarily, it is good and fitting and right and even obligatory. If we're Christians, reading the Bible, that we seek to make disciples, and our first disciples are the little disciples in our home. That we seek to be fruitful and multiply with the wife of our youth.

• 1:16:31Speaker 00

  That, that the overflow of our love produces the fruit of the womb, and that we raise him in the fear and admonition of the Lord. That they are arrows, the Psalms say. The children are like arrows that, that a man, a father, will one day shoot out. The greatest arsenal, the greatest weaponry, going all the way back to the topic of power, the most powerful thing I have that will ultimately conquer my enemies are my six children, who will be raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord and will do immense damage, like arrows, like a battering ram up against the gates of hell. So I had kids because I must have them, not just because I wanted to have them.

• 1:17:12Speaker 00

  And now I can't imagine life without them. Seth Rogen is wrong. He's, he's wrong because he's selfish, because he's arrogant, because he's a pothead. Right? All these reasons, we know this. But, but he's also wrong because he starts with the, the wrong premise. I don't know if kids would make me happy. Who cares about your happiness?

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Somebody may say, what do you mean, who cares about my happiness?

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  God cares about your happiness.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. The liberal argument may be like, it's my life. I get to do what I want to do in my life. I don't want to have kids. I want to spend time with my wife and I want to be doing my thing. Why should I have kids, Joel? This is exactly why I don't like the, you know, Bible thumping pastors out there telling me to go have kids and live for somebody else and not for myself. I don't want to do that. Why is there anything wrong with that?

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  Because God wrote a book. This isn't my opinion. I have lots of opinions, and we've talked about some of them today. This one ain't one of my opinions. This is not subjective. God in heaven wrote a book. And that book is true whether Joel Webbon was ever born or not. And in that book, one of the first commandments he gives to his image-bearing creatures is to be fruitful and multiply. Because one of the, the end games, the eschaton of man here on earth and heavenly life in eternity is that God's image-bearing creatures would so fill the earth, imaging, emulating Christ to all of the cosmos, to the world,

• 1:18:39Speaker 00

  that they would be born and multiply, but also shaped and forged more and more into the image of God through catechism, discipleship, gospel, all these things. Why should, why should you do it? Because God says so. And that's a good reason. That's a, that's a sufficient reason. God wrote a book and he said so.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, let's see if anything will happen. He's, can you pull up Seth Rogen's wife? Do you know who his wife is?

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  I don't know who his wife is.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  I don't really follow actors, you know?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  I thought for, I thought for a second you were like a big Seth Rogen guy. I was maybe speculating.

• 1:19:13Speaker 00

  No, I, I'm usually not a, a big on potheads.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Lauren Miller, is she, is she a Hollywood person? Is she an actress? I don't know if she is, maybe she is. Oh, she was in Superbad, okay, and Zachary. All right, so they're in the same world. They're both coming from Hollywood and that's their life. So the chances of them having kids together, by the way, they've been together, respect to them, they've been together for 23 years.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  That, for Hollywood, that is, yeah. No, that is, that's, that beats the odds.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  So if you're together 23 years, and 23 years later, you still decide not to have kids.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  I think you're wrong. I, I still think they're wrong.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:52Speaker 00

  But you are right. The fact that they've lasted together for 23 years for Hollywood, that's pretty good.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Have you watched the recent movie Citizen Vigilante?

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Have you seen this movie or no? Okay. It, it's, it's out of, it's a low-budget movie, couple million dollars. Uwe Boll makes this movie. It is officially the number one movie, I believe, on Amazon and Apple.

• 1:20:15Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  And it has created so much chaos. We don't even need to play the clip, but we, it's created so much chaos. If you get, I, I just thought maybe you had watched the clip. Lots of controversy behind this movie. When you get a chance, I'd love to hear your thoughts on, on what you, what you think.

• 1:20:31Speaker 00

  I watched that movie, another one that was like, kind of made, um, from scratch, YouTuber, the, the one with all the back rooms.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  What did you think about that?

• 1:20:40Speaker 00

  That was fascinating. That was really fascinating. I, uh, I'm glad I watched it as an experience because it was creative.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:48Speaker 00

  But it was, it was a different kind of terror, right? It wasn't just the jump cuts, you know, and like, like a Saul grotesque kind of, it, it was a psychological.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  But, but not just terror, but like absolute hopelessness, despair. So I would never watch it again, but not because it was, it was a great movie, but miserable. Such a miserable experience.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  What's, what's your position on Catholicism?

• 1:21:14Speaker 00

  I have many Catholic followers and absolutely would consider them to be friends. So grateful for them. Calvin Robinson, he's on our network with NXR. He does a weekly show on Thursdays. Now, he's not Roman Catholic, but he's basically Catholic minus the Pope. And he's, you know, he appreciates a Pope. He just thinks he should be a first among equals, right? A bishop who's going to settle disputes among other regional bishops, but not speaking ex cathedra and having, you know, authority over all the other bishops. So anyways, but Calvin is, you know, a close friend and he's mostly Catholic. Nick, Nick Fuentes, you know, we did a 10-part series with him. I consider him a friend. I appreciate him very much.

• 1:21:54Speaker 00

  Don't agree on everything, of course, you know, because I'm my own person, but I think Nick does a lot of great work. He's a Roman Catholic, very, very much committed to his faith. So I think that Catholics are natural allies. This is where I kind of woke up in my world, the reformed, historic reformed Protestant world. When reformed pastors started getting on to me about my willingness to participate with Catholics, work with Catholics, not in the local church. I would never have a Catholic elder, right? There's, again, you have to think in categories, right? So in the church, I'm not going to have this ecumenicalism.

• 1:22:32Speaker 00

  We need to be theologically aligned, aligned. So in my church, the leaders of my church, they're going to be Protestant. They're going to be reformed Protestant. It's not diversity of thought. Theology is not a strength in a local church setting. Out here, as I'm seeking to do things political and cultural and larger, broader influence, you gotta have numbers, right? You can't just shoot your own teammates, right? So linking arms, co-belligerence. And when reformed pastors started turning against me and saying, well, you're getting too buddy buddy with the Catholics. But meanwhile, they're perfectly willing to be buddy buddy with Dennis Prager, Ben Shapiro. And again, right here, I'm not trying to, the Jews, but this is actually just a good example, just religiously speaking.

• 1:23:17Speaker 00

  Not ethnically, not nationally, religiously speaking. Who's closer to Protestant Christians? Catholics or Orthodox Jews?

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Catholics.

• 1:23:27Speaker 00

  Of course. So what do I think about Catholics? I love them. Do I wish they agreed with me? Of course, of course. Do I think they're wrong theologically on some issues that are not just benign, but significant that it matters?

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Such as what?

• 1:23:42Speaker 00

  Yes. Okay. So I prefer the Catholic to the Eastern Orthodox. One big reason. Penal substitutionary atonement. Christus victor is one of the views of the atonement, and it's true. It's a historic position. It's not less than that. Christ conquering over the prince of the air and demonic princes and principalities. It's true. He held them to open shame. Colossian says, this is awesome. Christ, through his death and resurrection, victorious, breaking the chains, binding the strong man Satan. Beautiful. I hold to Christus victor. But penal substitutionary atonement, substitutionary, substitute. Jesus did not just die as a moral example of sacrificial love.

• 1:24:27Speaker 00

  Greater love. Jesus says, greater love has no one than this, that a man would lay down his life for his friends. Jesus' sacrifice is an example, a moral example of sacrificial love that we should seek to follow. But if that's all it is.

• 1:25:34Speaker 05

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• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  We have Joan of Arc. We've got William Wallace. There are plenty of good, virtuous people throughout all of history who died a brutal death out of sacrifice love for their country, their kin, whatever. But Jesus died as a substitute, penal substitutionary atonement, meaning he died as a lamb of God in my place. He didn't just die as an example of sacrificial love. He died, he who knew no sin, became sin on my behalf, so that I might inherit the righteousness of God. My sin, double imputation. My sin was imputed to Christ. His righteousness through faith imputed to me. When God sees me, he sees the very righteousness of Christ. And on the cross, when God looked at Jesus,

• 1:26:31Speaker 00

  he saw the most vile sinner in all the world, bearing all the sins of the elect, and he poured out his white-hot wrath. Father, why have you forsaken me? Because Jesus was the most disgusting sinner in that moment who has ever lived in the history of humanity. He didn't just die as an example. He died as a substitute. He died in my place. That's the heart of the gospel. EO, Eastern Orthodox, they deny. Catholics agree with that. So I have more in common with Catholics. Also, they're Western. They think in terms of substance, rationale, Eastern Orthodox. It's Eastern. So it's more mysticism, experiencing God, whereas the Western tradition, right? Augustine, Aquinas is knowing God. The goal is to know Christ.

• 1:27:11Speaker 00

  Whereas, you know, for the Eastern guys, there's more of an emphasis on being one with God and experiencing God. But one of my big disagreements with Catholics is even though they hold to penal substitutionary atonement, praise God. Imputation, double imputation of righteousness, imputed, right? So Abraham, he believed God, and it was accredited, transferred like a bank transaction. Accredited, transferred, imputed to his account as righteousness. Whereas the Catholic is infused righteousness, that through sacraments, right? Through these different practices, the Eucharist, confession, all many of these things, good things.

• 1:27:55Speaker 00

  But there is an infusion of grace that comes again and again and again, all the way up until your death, right? Last rites from the priest, one more infusion of grace, get the bread down the gullet, you know, and a sip of wine. Because we need one more transfusion of grace, you know, to lift the soul, to make sure this guy doesn't go to hell. Or he goes to purgatory, but maybe, you know, he'll be there for 100 years instead of 1,000. I just don't believe that's what the Bible teaches. I believe it's this once and for all righteousness of Christ, not just infused, but imputed to us, not by work so that no man can boast, but by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone.

• 1:28:35Speaker 00

  I am, at the end of the day, and I know my Catholic listeners will hear this, they'll be like, oh, that's so insufferable. Oh, Joel, we loved you and you're being so gay. Here I am, here I stand, so God help me. I am a Protestant.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Catholics say, stop being gay. Maybe that's a compliment from them.

• 1:28:52Speaker 00

  Maybe. But I love, I love my Catholic friends.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  It's great. I love it. Joel, great having you on. How can people find you? What could we send people to come learn more about you?

• 1:29:03Speaker 00

  First, thank you so much. Huge honor. I know that I have the reputation of being a radical. You hearing me out, giving me a chance, it means the world. Thank you.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  Anytime.

• 1:29:11Speaker 00

  So NXR Studios, you just search it on Rumble or YouTube or whatever.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  NXR.

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  Yes, sir. So NXR, it's just our way of saying New Christian Right. That's what it stands for. So the New Christian Right. So New Christian Right Studios, NXR, Rumble, YouTube. And then you can just follow me on Twitter. It's at Joel Webbon.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  And you got an event that's coming up in December as well, if you want to let the audience know.

• 1:29:32Speaker 00

  Thank you. Yeah, so this was.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Can you zoom in so we can see the speakers at this event?

• 1:29:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this is Christ is King.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:40Speaker 00

  That's the main title. And can we play this trailer?

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  Thirty-four minutes?

• 1:29:46Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no. One, oh, that's an episode. It's one minute.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  If they just play the first minute.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:29:52Speaker 00

  Is that okay?

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  Where's it at?

• 1:29:54Speaker 00

  Oh, they could just, that was it, actually.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Oh, can they go back to just play the first minute?

• 1:29:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, just play the first minute of that episode you were just on.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  I was gonna say thirty-four minute trailer. That's a scary trailer.

• 1:30:02Speaker 00

  But it's called Christ is King America After Trump.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:04Speaker 00

  Here we go.

• 1:30:08Speaker 00

  America will either have Christ or will have chaos. For years, conservatives believed that Trump could reverse America's decline. But after Trump, the right is now fractured, exhausted, and losing ground. Endless infighting and electoral losses have exposed a deeper problem that politics alone cannot solve. A nation that rejects Christ cannot be restored by mere personalities, grandstanding, or Christless conservatism. So NXR Studios First Annual Conference, America After Trump, brings together pastors, politicians, commentators, and Christians that are committed to strength,

• 1:30:53Speaker 00

  cooperation, and a durable future for the American right. Complaining is not a strategy, and despair cannot be an option. Christ is king. Let's live like it. Save 50% off your ticket only by registering before May 31st at newchristianright.com/conference. That's newchristianright.com/conference.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:31:23Speaker 00

  So that's it.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Fantastic. Very excited. And again, NXR Studios. Go look them up. Joel, great having you on. I'm always fascinated by these different personalities to see what makes you guys tick. I learned a lot about your story today, and I was glad I invited you. I was glad we sat down and we spoke. So I appreciate your time. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye, bye-bye. When we set out to create a shoe that blends comfort, function, and luxury, we had the choice to make it fast, we had the choice to make it cheap. We chose neither. Instead, we chose Tuscanyero. We chose true Italian craftsmanship. Each pair touched by 50 skilled hands.

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• 1:33:01Speaker 05

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