How to Raise Resilient Kids in the Age of AI: The Parenting Skills AI Can Never Replace | Dr. Dana Suskind - EP 793

What does it mean to raise children who will thrive in a world transformed by artificial intelligence? Dr. Dana Suskind reveals how early relationships, emotional resilience, and meaningful human connection build the foundation for lifelong flourishing.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01John R. Miles?

  Hey friends, what if your biggest problem isn't that you're not doing enough, but that you've spent too long proving that you are enough? You can be successful, needed, and surrounded by people and still feel completely unseen. That's the problem I explore in my new book, The Mattering Effect. I show you how we become hyper-visible for what we produce while quietly becoming invisible to ourselves, and introduce the matter framework to help you reclaim meaning, autonomy, trust, time, energy, and reciprocity. Stop auditioning for your worth, start living from it. The Mattering Effect is available for preorder now at matteringeffect.com. Coming up next on Passion Struck.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  All of these sort of things that we've optimized ourselves for, now AI can replicate it, not replicate it, can surpass us. But the one thing it can't do is care, truly care. It can simulate care, and that's why people are flocking to AI, but it doesn't stay up at night worried about your child, how your child is doing, the things that we as parents do, you know, just instinctively. And I think that caring, that connection is so critical for this next moment in time because it's actually that will give our children the best chance to thrive in the age of AI with these human edge skills.

• 1:19John R. Miles?

  Welcome to Passion Struck. I'm your host, John Miles. This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week, I sit down with changemakers, creators, scientists, and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts, and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future, developing as a leader, or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection, and impact is choosing to live like you matter.

• 2:07John R. Miles?

  Hello friends and welcome back to episode 793 of Passion Struck. This month, we're exploring what it means to flourish. We began with awakening. We talked about our relationship with ourselves, our bodies, and the practices that keep us grounded when life becomes uncertain. Last week, we moved into rewiring. New York Times bestselling author Nick Orton helped us understand how our experiences become lasting patterns. And New York Times bestselling author John Gordon reminded us that the habits we practice every day shape the people we're becoming. This week, we're talking about cultivating, because none of us grow in isolation. The people around us, the conversations we have, the environments we create, and the experiences we share quietly shape who we become. My guest today is Dr. Dana Suskin.

• 2:51John R. Miles?

  Dana is a pediatric cochlear implant surgeon, professor of surgery at the University of Chicago, a New York Times bestselling author, and one of the leading voices in the world on early childhood development and the science of human connection. Her remarkable new book, which releases today, is called Human Raised: Nurture in Connection Curiosity and Lifelong Learning in the Age of AI. Reading Dana's work felt deeply familiar to me because she's asking many of the same questions I've been wrestling with in my own writing. What helps people know they matter? What kind of relationships allow us to flourish? And what do we lose when efficiency becomes more important than human connection? In today's conversation, we explore why the first years of life are so foundational,

• 3:35John R. Miles?

  how attachment shapes our sense of self and belonging, and why children need what Dana calls "human edge skills," things like curiosity, empathy, resilience, creativity, and creative thinking, to thrive in a rapidly changing world. We also talk about the pressure many parents feel to optimize their children for success. While good enough parenting is often exactly what children need, and what happens when technology begins replacing experiences that have traditionally helped us become more fully human? And perhaps most importantly, we discuss the simple but profound truth, that human connection isn't a luxury or a nice addition to life, it's the foundation upon which flourishing is built. Before we begin, if you're enjoying this flourishing series, please share this episode with someone who might benefit from it.

• 4:20John R. Miles?

  Make sure you're following Passion Struck on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and subscribe if you haven't. You can watch the full video version of today's conversation along with additional clips on our YouTube channels. And if you'd like to go deeper, you'll find today's companion workbook and reflection guide at my Substack at theignitedlife.net. Now, let's dive in with Dr. Dana Suskin. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life that matters. Now, let that journey begin.

• 4:54John R. Miles?

  I am absolutely thrilled today to welcome Dana Suskin to Passion Struck. Dana, how are you today?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I'm great. Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here.

• 5:03John R. Miles?

  I'm so excited to do this interview. And it's interesting, because as I was looking at your background, you have this career where you've been asking a remarkably consistent question. What allows a child to reach their fullest potential? And I'm really interested in that because my whole podcast is about how do all of us flourish in life and lead the limitless life that we all want to lead? As I understand it, you began as a surgeon, and you thought you were solving a hearing problem, but eventually you realized you were studying something much deeper. The way, as I understand it, human relationships shape the developing brain.

• 5:45John R. Miles?

  What have you learned throughout that journey that children need most?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  I love that entryway because it's true. There's a common theme at every stage of my career that is about human connection, and specifically children and the power of human connection to build who they are. So as you mentioned, I'm a pediatric cochlear implant surgeon, and for your listeners who are not sure what it is, it's an amazing piece of technology that allows a child born deaf the ability to hear, to talk, to mainstream. But early on in my career, I started noticing a really troubling difference amongst my patients after surgery. They would start, they would get the same technology, have parents that loved them equally, but their outcomes couldn't have been more different, with some of them just

• 6:32Speaker 01

  absolutely thriving and the other struggling. And it was that question that I say led me out of the operating room into the world of social science, behavioral science, where I learned that the most, I really went deep into developmental neuroscience to try to understand these differences. And what I came to was the fact that language and interaction, human connection, literally wires our brains to who, to become who we are. Not just language and literacy, but socio-emotional, self-regulation, sense of self, empathy, all of these things are built early on. And so my entire career has really been focused on helping parents and caregivers maximize

• 7:17Speaker 01

  the connection that they have with their children so that their children can thrive.

• 7:21John R. Miles?

  And we're going to explore a ton more of that, but I'm interested, what took you out of the operating room and into becoming an author?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Oh, that's another sort of, it's still all connected up. Because what I found, as I mentioned, in this developmental neuroscience, in my continual learning journey, which is the best part of life, I found this incredible science that changed the way I thought about not just how I cared for my patients, but how I lived my life. And so much of academia is in this ivory tower. Three people read your scientific articles, but that's not how you change the world. And writing books is both a way for me to think through big thorny problems and really share that knowledge with the world. And this last book was the most, that I just wrote, was the most learning that I've ever

• 8:13Speaker 01

  done and the most thinking, and I'm excited to share it with the world.

• 8:18John R. Miles?

  The name of the new book is Human Raised: Nurture in Connection Curiosity and Lifeline Learning in the Age of AI. And as I was reading it, you have the words "age of AI" in there, but I found that was a small piece of the book, and the bigger one was, I felt like, the three other dimensions of the book. Is that a good way to think about it?

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I ultimately wrote this book to help all of us, but especially parents in this sort of pivotal moment in time, navigate without panic. But the story of AI is as much about us as humans as it is about this technology. So you're right, understanding how to move forward is understanding. Ourselves.

• 9:02John R. Miles?

  You wrote that AI may eventually surpass humans in many intellectual tasks, which is scary how fast it's actually doing that. Yet you argue that there's something deeply uniquely human that cannot be replicated. What exactly, in your words, is the human edge?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  It's true. I think this, we're all facing the fact that we've built a technology that many of these sort of quote unquote, hard skills, computing, knowledge accumulation, all of these sort of things that we've optimized ourselves for. Now AI can replicate it, not replicate it, can surpass us. But the one thing it can't do is care, truly care. It can simulate care, and that's why people are flocking to AI. But it doesn't stay up at night worried about your child, how your child is doing, the things that we as parents do, you know, just instinctively. And I think that caring, that connection is so critical for this next moment in time,

• 10:03Speaker 01

  because it's actually that will give our children the best chance to thrive in the age of AI with these human edge skills. Do you want me to share what they are? Or was that sort of answering the question?

• 10:15John R. Miles?

  You can go there. I was gonna go there later, so I might return. But since you brought it up, you might as well.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, because this is the wildest part of this moment in time is this technology is awe inspiring. There's no doubt about it. It has huge potential. But what it's shown us, though, is that these skills, we can't raise our children to out compute AI. But what we can do is raise them with these distinctly human skills that will allow them to thrive in the age of AI. Critical, things like critical thinking, being able to connect with others, curiosity, creativity, resilience and adaptability. Because no matter what the pundits say, nobody actually knows what the future is going to look like. So having children raised with these skills is going to give them the best chance to

• 11:05Speaker 01

  survive and thrive in the age of AI.

• 11:08John R. Miles?

  Dana, something I wanted to ask you about is I recently wrote my first children's book. I have a second one that I'm working on right now. But as I was doing the research on this.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, there it is. I love it, by the way. So it made me feel mad. It made me feel like, oh, I matter.

• 11:29John R. Miles?

  Did I happen to send you the teacher and parent guide to it? If not.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  You did. It is so aligned. I know, I don't mean to interrupt you, but it is so aligned, not just with human raised and the ideas and the science from it, but it's really wonderful. So I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt you.

• 11:49John R. Miles?

  I know. Well, I'm flattered. That's awesome. I recently saw a copy of the book in China, and it made me so happy to see it's gone global. But as I was going down the path of actually writing it, the reason I did is I keep seeing so many adults who have lost this signal of mattering. And as I started to look at it, it all starts in our childhood development. And I had thought, based on the research I was doing before I started looking into your work, that there were two intervention points. I thought that there was one that I call the wet cement years between four to eight. And then I thought there's another intervention point between nine and 13.

• 12:34John R. Miles?

  And the difference is when you're four to eight, you're like a sponge. But when you're nine to 13, you're starting to ask deeper questions, which allows a different set of learning to occur. But I understand you believe that the years of zero to three are equally, if not more important. I was hoping you might be able to go there.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Yes, I absolutely love that. And if I influenced your thinking a little bit in that realm, I feel like I've succeeded. Because I think so often we talk about these big thorny issues, mattering, purpose, and we skip over those early years that are so incredibly important to who we are. So just to give a little bit of brain science to your listeners, the first three to five years of life, and it's never over, let me be clear about that. But those first years of life are when you build the infrastructure of the brain. Babies are born underdone. Their brains are only one third the size of adult brains. And this is actually the origins of our evolutionary, of our brilliance, because it gives a whole

• 13:41Speaker 01

  lot of time to grow our brain even bigger in those years, those early years, where 85% of the physical brain is built during that time. And literally, it is built by human connection, by talk and interaction. And I give the example, this is a metaphor. It's like those early years, if you're building a computer, it's like building the hard drive, the memory, the RAM, the hard stuff. Everything else is software updates. It's super important, but you can't software update yourself from an iPhone four when you were supposed to be an iPhone 16.

• 14:14John R. Miles?

  Yes.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  And so those early years are critical for our relationships with ourselves and our relationships with others through attachment, attachment to our caregivers. That's when we first learn that we matter. But you can matter with a relationship that is imperfect. And that you actually, that's how you build the strongest person. So yes, I'm so glad that you brought it up. And those early years are critical.

• 14:43John R. Miles?

  It's interesting, because I think other parts of the world were behind us from an educational standpoint, and now most have surpassed us. But I found, when I look at a lot of countries, they actually start their schooling of youngsters much earlier than the United States. Do you think that's a mistake, that we're not involving kids in school at an earlier point?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I think what's a mistake is that we don't invest more consistently earlier. You can think about it through a school system, right? High quality childcare. But you can also think about it through the lens of parents, parental support. We're the only country, developed nation, without paid family leave. One in four mothers go back to work after two weeks. If we really believe that those early years matter and that brain development is so critical for who we are, which it is, that's what the neuroscience shows you. I think there are many ways to invest so that children have a good, early, healthy start.

• 15:46John R. Miles?

  Yeah. And in case a person isn't a regular listener to this show, one of the reasons I am so focused on this is I've had a number of discussions with Gordon Flatt, who's been studying mattering now for over three decades. And his latest research is showing that about 35% of kids in this four to eight year old range do not feel like they matter. And so that is a really troubling number when you then look at 50% of high school students feel consistently sad or hopeless. And so to me, that's where I'm drawing this connection that is rooted in the same thing.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  100%. And in some ways, if I share with you, can I share a little bit about attachment theory and how that plays into our relationship map and our believing that we matter? Because in those early years, attachment in the early years is so critical for these underdone babies. Our babies are so much more helpless than any other species. And attachment to a loving caregiver, an imperfect loving caregiver, is it's what teaches them three major questions in their life, right?

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Am I worth loving, right? Are relationships safe? Is it safe to reach out to others? And that is built by secure attachment with your caregiver. Traditionally, research has compared secure attachment to insecure attachment. So if you have a caregiver who is inconsistent, sometimes cold, sometimes warm, you learn that maybe I'm not worth loving. Maybe it's reaching out to others is dangerous. And so it affects how you go through your life's relationships and how you view yourself. But now with AI, there's a whole new sort of form of attachment, potential attachment, which is artificial attachment. And how that's going to affect humans and whether they feel like they matter, it's,

• 17:46Speaker 01

  we will see.

• 17:47John R. Miles?

  It's a very interesting point, because as I've talked and about, as I've spoken to Rebecca Goldstein and Angela Myers, we're both big in the mattering world. They both talk about the mattering instinct. And the mattering instinct is what a baby actually reaches for right at birth. They want that feedback that they're coming into this world and that they're attached to someone and someone loves them. So it starts all the way from the moment we're born, really.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  100%, 1,000%. And I think in some ways, the age of AI has shown us that not only is this critical, but a new aspect is on the scene. The fact that attachment to a good enough parent, because let's face it, human relationships are messy and with lots of friction, is in fact, the strongest type of attachment, that you can be loved by someone consistently, who is totally imperfect. I don't know about you, you're probably a perfect parent. I am far from a perfect parent. But that is how that child learns that they matter, even in the face of someone who sometimes messes up and misunderstands and then repairs that relationship.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  That's the strongest way you teach that you matter and to be resilient, I think.

• 19:04John R. Miles?

  Before we get back to the conversation, I want to thank all of you for supporting Passion Struck. We would be nothing without you. The fans of this show, thank you so much for coming week after week to hear our messages. One reason I was so excited to speak with Dana is that her work intersects with many of the ideas that I explore in my upcoming book, The Mattering Effect. We both believe that human beings flourish when they know they matter to others and when they're given opportunities to contribute, connect and grow. Dana shows us that the foundations are laid much earlier than most of us realize. The relationships we build, the conversations we have, and the ways we show up for one another, shape not only who children become, but the kind of adults and communities we create together.

• 19:49John R. Miles?

  If you'd like to go deeper in today's episode, you'll find a free companion workbook and a reflection guide at theignitedlife.net with practical exercises designed to help you put these ideas into practice in your own family, workplace and relationships. And if you're enjoying this flourishing series, please follow Passion Struck on Apple Podcast or Spotify and subscribe if you haven't. Most importantly, if a parent, grandparent, teacher, coach or mentor came to mind while you're listening, share this episode with them. Now, a quick break for our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show.

• 20:29John R. Miles?

  You're listening to Passion Struck right here on the Passion Struck Network. Now, let's get back to my conversation with Dana Susskind.

• 20:37John R. Miles?

  Absolutely. Well, let's go into the book a little bit. I found that one of the most striking moments in the book was you mentioned Geoffrey Hinton.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:48John R. Miles?

  Who suggests that safe AI will require something akin to maternal instincts. What does that observation reveal to you about the profound limits of intelligence itself?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  It sounded controversial. I just found it super interesting. Obviously, Geoffrey Hinton is the godfather of AI. And he left Google to warn the world about his concerns related to AI. And so, when he was talking about how do we make AI aligned with human values, protective of human values, he actually suggested that we embed, he called it maternal instincts, I call it parental instincts, because I think mothers and fathers will go to the end of the earth for their children. And so, he says, "Look, that is the only example of a weaker or being controlling a stronger being." Right? All of us, it's not so much that we're wrapped around their fingers, but we will do anything to protect our young.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  And in that same way, he said, "Okay, if we embed these instincts in AI, well, then surely it will protect humanity as it becomes more and more intelligent and powerful." So I thought it was a really interesting point. I'm not sure exactly how you would do it, but I thought it was provocative. But it also, I thought it was not just provocative, but I thought it was really enlightening to see someone understanding that this primitive instinct of parents, as a parent, I have felt it, that our love and our desire to protect our young, it defies any rational explanation.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  And yet, we love these little beings more than we can ever say.

• 22:33John R. Miles?

  Well, that really crosses almost all species who are always, I think, no matter what species you look at, they're all, for the most part, trying to protect their young, some species more than others. But it is an interesting thing that we all possess.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And it was really even more important for humans, because let's face it, it's not like a horse that can stand up almost immediately. Our little, I always say, little babies are almost like a design flaw. They are just so helpless without a human protecting them for like, how many years? It's wild.

• 23:10John R. Miles?

  You and I were talking about Angela Duckworth and Katie Milkman before we started the show. And I had this really interesting interview with Angela a couple of years ago. My first book, I wrote that what she covered in grit, passion and perseverance, and their importance was vital, but I felt that something was missing from her argument. And so, if I were looking at a triangle, the third side for me is intentionality. And she and I had this big discussion about it, because she equates intentionality to self-control from her research perspective. What I loved about your book is you explore this philosophical concept of original intentionality,

• 23:54John R. Miles?

  the idea that humans, our thinking process is grounded in genuine concern and caring. Can you explain this original intentionality concept? And why you think it's going to be such a defining feature for humanity going forward?

• 24:10Speaker 01

  The discussion of original intentionality really came around this idea of caring and the idea that we are driven by a desire to, as a researcher, I study the power of human connection, because I am driven to understand, to make a difference. You're driven in a different way. And it was really, Matthias Schulz, I was talking to about this, really, he talked about it through the lens of this parental instinct, how Hinton had said, "Look, we need to embed maternal instincts or parental instincts into AI to protect them." But he was really bringing it back to how this is a primitive embedded,

• 24:54Speaker 01

  original intentionality that protect our young, and that this is something, in theory, that AI can't replicate, that we are driven by care and our intellectual curiosity. I'm not sure if I answered the question in the way that you were thinking, but please push back if I didn't.

• 25:12John R. Miles?

  My argument all along has been that passion and perseverance are great. They influence a lot of what we do. And of course, my podcast is called Passion Struck. But I always use this example, when I was at the Naval Academy, you could have passion and perseverance, but that could either take you to a place you want to go, or it could take you in the opposite direction. And to me, intentionality is what kind of gives us that North Star and puts us on this path where we start aligning our value system with our ambitions and our aspirations. And so, it's great to have grit, but without intentionality,

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:53John R. Miles?

  you don't take the actions that drive you closer to the life that you want to live. And that's been my argument I've been trying to make now for four or five years.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  I have a question, because I love that, and because you've got, would you ever consider it the three Ps of passion, perseverance? And maybe this is not exactly the right word, but a semi-pragmatism? That's not exactly intentionality, but I was trying to find a three Ps. So, but yeah, no, I agree. You have to, yeah, no, I agree with that. I only say that because I actually, when I talk to my own children and I talk about, because it can be so easy to say, "Oh, I want to do X, Y, and Z." But if there isn't an intentionality, I don't know, is pragmatism the right word? You can go off into space as well.

• 26:41John R. Miles?

  I think if you're going to use a P to headline it, that's probably the closest thing to it that I could think of. But I like that, the three Ps.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  I don't know. I'm always trying to think of a new way to frame things.

• 26:53John R. Miles?

  Yeah, well, that makes two of us. And my publisher, in my most recent book, cut out 80% of them. She says, "You have too many frameworks and sub frameworks in your book." I'm like, "That's how I think. That's how I remember things, is I put letters or icons or images to things, and that's how I am able to retain it." So of course, that's how I'm going to try to write about it.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  John, we are more alike than I realized. So, did you see all those frameworks and guidelines? Because I really was like, I want to give parents in society concrete ways to think about it. Because I can write in the philosophical and scientific all day long, but I wanted to give them hardcore frameworks. But yeah, so I think our brains must be wired in a similar way.

• 27:36John R. Miles?

  Yes, I think so.

• 27:40John R. Miles?

  Well, Dana, I recently had Dan Ariely on, and I have always wanted to interview Dan, because when you think about irrationality, I always just think about him and his research. And it reminded me of your chapter two. You make this argument that the traits that we most admire, things like love, which I just did an episode about with Marcus Buckingham and Mark Nepo earlier in the year, sacrifice, generosity, devotion, are fundamentally irrational. But I think we spend so much of modern life, and this is what you write about, trying to optimize the very qualities that make us most human. And I think because of that, that's why so many people today feel adrift.

• 28:25John R. Miles?

  What are your thoughts on that?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely. In some ways, we have an evolutionary mismatch in the way society, especially some of the technological revolution and innovations, which, let me be clear, I love tech. I build tech, I implant tech. So I'm not at all anti-tech. But I think that understanding who we are as a species, our deep desire to connect, we are social beings, in some ways is an antithesis to modern life. We're talking less, we're connecting less. We're connecting in ways in modern life that look very different than it did a millennia ago.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  And in the same way, as ultra-processed foods and the evolutionary mismatch with who we are and how we were driven, I think it has affected us as a species. I think we're starting to push back and seeing, "Ooh, this isn't feeling right." But I really agree, and I think

• 29:27Speaker 01

  I would push back on the idea of rationality in that doesn't make sense. Everything ultimately makes sense. We just have to understand in what context it makes sense and how this context wasn't the context that we evolved in.

• 29:41John R. Miles?

  I completely agree, and it kind of leads me to your argument on the cost of efficiency, which is something that I'd been writing and talking about quite frequently over the past year because I feel like I was grown up to optimize everything, even relationships that I was in. And I think because we're elevating efficiency, it's we're elevating it even above the desire to have connections. And I think it's creating what I refer to as this mattering gap where we're losing the signal because of this cost of efficiency.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. And AI is only going to take it to the next level because for efficiency, to get to point A to point B, you want to decrease as much friction as you can. In some ways, I think that the friction of human connection, the friction of having to think through an essay, all of that friction is core to learning and learning to be human. And with AI and all these technologies in their desire to be more efficient have decreased the friction. But friction is clearly, it's becoming clear, it's not a bug. It's an important element to who we are and what we need.

• 31:07John R. Miles?

  It absolutely is. But I was having this conversation. Are you familiar with Jamil Zaki?

• 31:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:13John R. Miles?

  Okay. Jamil studies cynicism at Stanford. And as I was doing research for my upcoming book, I was talking to him about cynicism and I was talking about this trap of efficiency. And he brought up that what is happening is, I call it systemic unmattering, but basically we're in this ecosystem where little bits of our sense of mattering are being taken from us every single day. And we are finding ourselves in what I'm calling a marketplace of mattering, where in order to feel like we matter, we trade a little bit of our identity away in small parts.

• 31:56John R. Miles?

  That's a part why I feel we're growing up feeling we're never enough because it's this feeling of self-worth is stripped in these micro moments, I don't even know what to call it, of erasure that they add up over time into this feeling of abyss that I think so many of us carry into adulthood and throughout much of our lives. And you introduced this as never enough parenting, but I also see it as a syndrome of never enough that so many of us are trapped in when it comes to our self-worth.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Now, I'm curious, tell me more about what you feel like they're trading off in these micro moments. Are they being told, oh, you really matter? Is it just that, because I think to know that you matter, it's an act, not just a statement, right?

• 32:50John R. Miles?

  If you simplify this, I think a lot of us are brought into two different types of households. One, where we're rewarded by our silence. So our invisibility, you're there, but you're told not to talk. And I think for my parents' generation and the ones before that was more common than today. I think what many of the parents today are doing, and Jenny Wallace wrote a great book on it, Never Enough, is I think we're teaching kids that they have to perform to feel like they matter. And so where I'm going with it is whether you are taught that your silence creates the feeling that you're seen, or whether you feel like you have to perform by getting

• 33:34John R. Miles?

  better grades, dancing on a stage, performing in a sports league that you're part of, that either one, it's pushing the goalposts farther and farther out. And so what I am saying is that along the way, it's stripping from us our mattering signal in micro doses.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:57John R. Miles?

  And so I think it's like you don't wake up one day and say, I'm burned out. It's not like a light switch flips. It's more like it's a gradual thing. And then all of a sudden, it kind of hockey sticks over time and you just have this moment that something is severely off. But while you're going through it, you don't really notice it because the way I would describe it, it's like your world is getting a little dimmer, but it's happened so gradually, you don't necessarily know what's causing it. And then it kind of catapults.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  I couldn't agree more. And it's so funny, I've been thinking about this as it relates to the age of AI. And I think I sent you an email as I saw all this pushback related to AI, the commencement speeches, people booing and people pushing back on these large data centers. And it's obvious, it's partially because of concern like what's going to happen to our climate and work jobs in the future, that all makes sense. But I think it's also connected to this larger idea of mattering because not only have we been stripping it away over time, but all of a sudden now we have a new technology

• 35:11Speaker 01

  that in some ways promises to replace the important roles that we play in each other's lives. Now AI can be your first companion, it can be your first best friend, it can replace people in the workforce. And maybe we're going to wake up, based on your work and discussion in AI, that no, we want to matter, we want to matter in each other's lives, we need to slow down and connect. At least that's my hope anyways.

• 35:38John R. Miles?

  Yeah, well, if you take what you just said and you bring this into the modern workplace, that's exactly what's going on. Why do you have so many employees who feel disengaged? Why do you have so many who feel completely exhausted? It's because the modern workforce is valuing us for our utility, not our humanness. And so you're constantly overwhelmed and convinced you're falling short because there's really no one reinforcing your value as a human. And I saw this especially during my career when I was in Fortune 500 environments because the measurements are completely non-human in most regards.

• 36:20John R. Miles?

  You're looking at shareholder value, what's driving customer success, KPIs, efficiency, but none of it was really looking at the human aspect of it, which is now, I think, becoming more and more prevalent in our households as well, which is what really gives me alarm.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I love the fact that you just said, we were valued for our utility, not our humanness. And in some ways, I argue in this book, and maybe it's a little bit of a fantasy that, well, now we are not going to be valued for our utility, for our ability to act like a piece of optimized technology, because now we have technology that's going to be doing it better than us. So I think going back to those human edge skills and our humanness and our ability to connect and all those other great skills, people are saying that this is what we're going to be valued for because that's going to be our unique capability. So I'm just so curious what will happen to this feeling of mattering. I don't know.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Do you have any thoughts?

• 37:26John R. Miles?

  Well, right now, it's getting a lot worse, which is why I'm so focused on this because I look at these things that the Surgeon General and others are calling epidemics, loneliness, burnout, disengagement, hopelessness. I think they're all symptoms of unmattering. And what worries me, and you cover this in the book, is it is happening to so many parents today because so many parents are giving it all. They have more time, information and resources than we did or our parents did, yet they feel more exhausted, overwhelmed and convinced they're falling short than any generation before them.

• 38:11John R. Miles?

  And I think it's because they, as a parent, don't feel like they matter. They feel the same thing that I felt like in a work environment, that I was just a cog in a bigger machine, valued for my utility, but not my humanness.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is absolutely true. Parents are, let's say they're burnt out. And I talk about it in the realm, as I talk about in the realm of AI, this is where I think if, depending on the choices we make, you can either think about AI as a replacement, oh, let's free up parents by having a technology that can replace their interaction, to answer all those questions that their children are asking, or we can be more intentional and build technology that gives them space for the connection that they want. Because we can't deny we are burnt out, people don't feel like they matter, but still, we are such social creatures.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  I really hope that if we did give them more space, that they would start feeling that they matter and feel more connected because that's our only way forward, right?

• 39:19John R. Miles?

  It is. And I want to go back to the other question that you asked me because I recently did a solo episode, 777, if people want to go back and listen to it. But in this, I really examined the film Wall-E.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:34John R. Miles?

  Because I think Wall-E is really what AI is kind of producing. You think about the people who are on that ship and they're all glued into their little screens, don't even notice the people around them. And it's not until John and Mary get unplugged through a circumstance that they see each other and that they realize the importance and vitality of the human connection that was missing. And to me, we need that same type of wake-up call. And that's where I'm trying to figure out, like, how do you do it? How do you reshape? How people are communicating, so you focus on that human dimension again.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really think that we need to double down on reaching out, on human connection. You've probably seen the research showing that even adults are talking significantly less than they did in the past, which obviously makes sense. And I think there are many ways forward, but we need to double down. We need to be more intentional. I love that you brought up Wally, because I think it was so prescient. You know what the only thing that wasn't prescient about it?

• 40:45John R. Miles?

  What is that?

• 40:47Speaker 01

  That all of the, everybody was overweight in it. And I was like, no, they didn't predict the GLP ones, but they predicted everything else. But you remember, they were all lost.

• 40:58John R. Miles?

  Yes.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  So that was.

• 41:00John R. Miles?

  Sedentary, yes.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Sedentary, yes, sorry.

• 41:04John R. Miles?

  Well, I want to come back to parenting for a second, because I wanted to ask you, Dana, do you think modern parents, from your research, are more focused on producing successful children than they are developing flourishing human beings?

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Look, I think all parents want to do right for their children. And I think that probably they would not see it as two distinct things, although you and I both know that they are distinct. I make the argument in the book that through millennia, every parental generation has tried to not only raise their children to survive in the age, in the world in which they'll grow, but to really thrive. And so they are doing the best that they can with the knowledge that they have. And in the last couple of decades, because of societal contexts, and this is research done by economists at Yale, that we have high inequality in our country, but high

• 42:02Speaker 01

  returns to education. So the response by parents is rational. Okay, to get my kid to have a successful flourishing life, I need to optimize them cognitively, so they get into the best schools, so that they can get the best jobs. And that's their way of doing right. You can look at helicopter parenting as maladaptive, but in some ways, you get it. It makes sense. At that same time, we know that other stuff is lost by this focus on optimizing our children. I do think that the age of AI, now that you can't optimize your child, it doesn't make

• 42:44Speaker 01

  sense to optimize your child for those same things that now AI can do in a millisecond. You still need those skills. Let me be clear, we still want our kids to read and to do math, all of those things. But we're going to need to be more thoughtful in supporting those human edge skills, the ability to critically think, to connect, all those things that we talked about. But those things can't be optimized. They can't be, you can't drill and kill your child into empathy and connection. You can only do that by human presence, by connection with your imperfect parenting, by boredom, by playing with a cardboard box.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Those are things that you need presence for. And so, because the rules of the game have changed with the age of AI. I think we'll see changes in how we parent as well.

• 43:38John R. Miles?

  Dana, earlier in the conversation, we were talking about frameworks. And I don't want to go further into the conversation without talking about the core framework of your book, which is HOPE, H-O-P-E. And it serves as a guide for evaluating AI's role in children's lives. Could you give the listeners a little bit more depth on what HOPE is and how they could use it?

• 43:59Speaker 01

  The HOPE framework is an evergreen framework to really understand AI is going to change, the products are going to change continually, but how to look at it holistically in an evergreen way. And HOPE stands for H is human connection, is not just a nice to have, it is a biologic necessity. And AI can't replicate that. O is owning our imperfections, that good enough parenting isn't just something nice to say to someone, but it is really how, through your wonderful, wonderfully loving, imperfect interaction, through your missteps and repairs with your child, you are not just raising them to be good humans, you're raising them to be able to navigate the human world.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  P is protect the early years. AI is coming like a steam engine speeding train, I was trying to think of the right word, in all parts of our lives. And it is entering our homes and our nurseries. But we need to think about AI a little bit differently. We need to take a beat in the early years because of all that brain development we talked about. AI can fundamentally rewire our children's brains if we are not thoughtful about it. So we need to be really thoughtful. But E is use it, this is not about being anti-AI, it's about using AI to enhance our relationships, but not to replace them. That is so core. HOPE is not just a feeling we have to have because the future isn't predetermined, but

• 45:27Speaker 01

  a way to think about how to bring AI into our lives if we want it. Because we're not putting the genie back in the bottle, that's for sure.

• 45:35John R. Miles?

  Well, I want to talk about HOPE and how it could be used as a gift of repair, because you discuss how children grow through moments of mismatch and repair. So your argument is that mistakes, misunderstandings, reconciliation are important to healthy development. But as they're going through that, how can the HOPE framework help with that repair?

• 46:00Speaker 01

  I think that, basically, let me just clarify the question. You're asking, how can HOPE and how can parents use the HOPE framework in a way that allows them to be the best good enough parents that they can be? Is that sort of a right way?

• 46:17John R. Miles?

  Yeah, that's part of it, and to allow their children to make mistakes, but.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  As mentioned, I think that's almost focused on owning our imperfections. Owning our imperfections isn't just about how parents need to be thinking about it. When they interact with their child and they misstep, misunderstand, somebody gets upstretched, struggles, and repairs it, that's a way that they're teaching their child that other people have thoughts and feelings that they need to navigate, not just their own egocentric ways, but the fact that there's, it's a two-way street. But owning your imperfections also comes from the child's standpoint, right? How do you allow them to have productive struggles where they understand their own importance, their own resilience, their own strength?

• 47:07Speaker 01

  I gave the story of John, my husband, who, when he was young, his older brother wouldn't always play with him. And so, and there were obviously no AI chatbots who he could play with. And he had to play by himself. He had to, through his own imagination, build, he actually played football in the backyard, and he played both sides of the football team. And he had to think about what that other side of the football team, he was, he was a Packers fan. So he was John Lockington on one side, and then he would play the Bears on the other side, and he would go back and forth. And that productive struggle, having to think through all of what this scenario would look

• 47:50Speaker 01

  like, wasn't just a way to use his time, but it was a way that he really built his cognitive flexibility, his creativity, his curiosity, his ability to take somebody else's perspective. And so in some ways, HOPE, especially owning our imperfections, allows us to see how to best allow children to thrive.

• 48:14John R. Miles?

  One of the parts of the book that really intrigued my interest is you write, what happens when children's critical, connective social circuits are reshaped through interaction with partners that always forgive and agree? If their new companions never argue, and you're talking about AI, with them or pushback on their ideas, will they ever be able to develop the critical thinking skills that will be so essential to this success in the AI age? And I think it's an important argument, because as I've thought about my life, the people who matter the most to me are the ones who you trust enough that you allow them

• 48:54John R. Miles?

  to give you that critical feedback that you need, like my wife does, to be a better human. And what happens to us if we have no one ever telling that, telling us that? It's like we're communicating just in one direction, and we're never getting a feedback loop to get us to think differently. Can you talk a little bit more about this concept?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  And this is a lot of the argument of the book and the thinking is that, in the same way, good enough parenting teaches us how to navigate imperfections, what happens when early attachments are artificial? When you're told always that you're right, and you're never exposed to diverse.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Thinking and ways of thinking and being pushed back. What does that do to you? I think it emotionally stunts you in some ways because not only are you going to be fearful and recoil when you do meet a human who has a different viewpoint. But I think that the muscle, the emotional muscle of building that critical thinking, building that theory of mind is through multiple small micro moments of pushback, meeting other people. I've tried to think about how would artificial attachment affect your sense of self? And I'm curious what you think because in some ways, if you're told all the time, you're wonderful, you are right. Does that make you feel like you matter more?

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Or is it like eating ice cream and candy every day? It's empty calories and you don't really feel that way. Do you need the pushback and the repair to say, oh yeah, I do matter? Because things can get tough and our relationship can still stick. I'm just curious.

• 50:40John R. Miles?

  Well, I think you wrote eloquently about it in the book when you were talking about artificial intimacy, which you were just referring to. And I'll go to your concept of scaffolding. I think the more that we're leaning into this, the more that we're taking apart that scaffolding that we need to grow in our humanity. And the more that scaffolding is disrupted, I think the more it's disrupting our sense of mattering, if that makes sense.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And our ability, not just in our ability to see that other people matter too, right? I think that hasn't there been those studies? I think it was from MIT that showed just interacting with a sycophantic LLM pretty quickly led to people not acknowledging or appreciating other people's differing viewpoint. And I think that it's not just how we think about ourselves, but how we think about others and preferring ultimately technologies or agents that always agree with us. It'll be a very different world if we allow that to happen.

• 51:50John R. Miles?

  Yeah, I first heard the term moral beauty when I was having a discussion years ago with Susan Cain and she was referencing the work of Dacher Keltner, who then I of course had to have a discussion with him to understand what he was talking about. But it's so interesting because his work on awe shows that we experience awe most commonly by either performing moral beauty or witnessing it. And for those who aren't familiar with the term, it's really just doing an act of kindness or gratitude or compassion to another human being.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:21John R. Miles?

  And it's been interesting as I've watched Arthur Brooks in his most recent book, The Meaning of Your Life, how he has gravitated towards this term and he's using it everywhere now. But I think with what you're talking about is if we stop performing moral acts of moral beauty, to me, it's going to have such a huge detrimental effect to our feeling of aliveness, which is really what life is all about, right?

• 52:48Speaker 01

  And would you say to perform acts of moral beauty, you also have to see the beauty of humanity in of itself? I'll tell you, after writing this book, I've always been about human connection. My research has been about human connection and talk and interaction. But I don't think that, I think that writing this book elevated just the beauty of seeing humans and humans interacting that, I don't want to say push me forward in, I don't know, acts of moral beauty, because that sounds self-serving, but I think you need to be able to see the beauty around us. And with all this artificial stuff coming our way, I wonder if we'll appreciate this

• 53:31Speaker 01

  moral beauty even more because we can get lots of AI-generated content beauty. It's not the same thing, obviously, but I don't know. Will we appreciate it even more, I hope?

• 53:44John R. Miles?

  Well, what I am trying to do myself, and I think you captured this well in the book, is I think Fred Rogers is a great example for us to look at because as you wrote, he hated television, but he thought maybe there's a way that he could use it as a way to be an instrument to nurture those who would watch and listen. And to me, what I'm trying to do is to figure out, how do you use AI as a way to help people matter in the same way that he was trying to use television to be an instrument for nurturing? And so I'm hoping there the parallels will grow over time. I launched this thing called The Mattering Verse.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:27John R. Miles?

  Really my version of Mr. Rogers' world. And hopefully it will take off like his did. But I think back to what he did and he really did use television as a medium to help kids understand why they mattered so much in the world.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  I love that and I love Mr. Rogers. I'm giving a talk to them, the production company soon, but I think your approach is exactly right. And that's a lot of the argument of the book is how do we use AI in ways that allow us to be more connected, to feel more mattered? And I think that there are, we can make the choices that really allow that. Those aren't always aligned with what are coming down from big tech. And maybe this is where we push back. Look, they've created, we've created, humanity has created this incredible new technology. Let's let it, let's ensure that it's used for human flourishing. It can go many different ways and the future isn't predetermined.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  So I love that you've built this mattering verse and I love, we need more people thinking about how the age of AI can be an age of human flourishing rather than the opposite.

• 55:41John R. Miles?

  Dana, I wanted to end the episode, the way your book closes with this extraordinarily powerful image that you write that we cannot stand on the shoreline. And maybe you can give this more context. What does stepping off the shoreline look, do you think, for parents, for educators, for all of the listeners who really care about the future of their children?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Do you want me to share the story or? Yeah, I tell the story of my late husband, who was an amazing human being, Don Liu. And he lost his life saving two children from Lake Michigan who were drowning. And I talk about the fact that afterwards he was lauded as a hero. But I think of it in a different way now. He cared deeply and he cared deeply for all children. Look, obviously he loved his children more than anything in this world, but he cared for all children. And in some ways, I feel like parents can, in our love for our children, can be not

• 56:45Speaker 01

  just the guardians of the gate of what comes into their own lives, but can really ensure that we build a world that allows all children to flourish. Because we can't forget that the children today, fast forward, we'll blink our eyes, are going to be the adults of tomorrow. And we need to be very thoughtful and intentional in how we approach this next moment in time. And I believe that parents, not only do they matter, but they love their kids with all their hearts. So they will make sure of it.

• 57:20John R. Miles?

  Absolutely. Well, Dana, it was such an honor to have you on today. Thank you for the incredible work that you're doing, both in the operating room and through these books and the talks that you're giving on this important subject. I feel like we're kindred spirits.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:35John R. Miles?

  Where's the best place people can learn more about your work?

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, if they go to Human Raised, there's a lot of information and we're going to be putting up the frameworks of how parents can think about this next moment in time. And then for my research, it's the tmwcenter.org. So those are the two places and thank you so much for having me on. It was so much fun.

• 57:58John R. Miles?

  I'll have to write to Katie and thank her again for the introduction. But Dana, it's been great to get to explore this book with you.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 58:07John R. Miles?

  That brings us to the end of today's conversation. What stayed with me the most is Dana's reminder that becoming human is something we do together. Curiosity, empathy, resilience, belonging. These aren't qualities we download or optimize for. They grow through relationships, through conversation, through being seen, heard, challenged and loved. And while Dana's work focuses on children, I don't think this conversation is only about raising kids. It's about all of us. It's about recognizing that no matter our age, we continue to be shaped by the people around us and by the environments we inhabit every single day. That idea takes us naturally into Tuesday's episode with Leidy Klots. Leidy is a professor, engineer and bestselling author, whose new book, In a Good Place, explores a simple but profound truth.

• 58:50John R. Miles?

  The places we live, work and gather don't just surround us, they shape who we become. In our conversation, we talk about why we're often so focused on changing ourselves, why overlooking the environments that influence us every day, how physical spaces can create belonging and memory, and why agency competence and connection are fundamental human needs that can either be nurtured or neglected by the places we build. Because if Dana teaches us that people raise people, Leidy reminds us that places help raise people too.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  And I don't think anyone would argue that, okay, we want people to be more engaged in the physical world and the distraction is the phone or the iPad or whatever. And I think instead of fighting the distraction, just using the distraction as a cue, right? When I reach for my phone in the morning, I think space before a screen. I'm about to check my emails and now instead of doing that, first I'm going to take in my physical surroundings. And I just think it's a practice that we can get in the habit of. You could also put a picture of the physical world on your screensaver that would remind you when you looked at it. But I just use the screen as a cue to say, no, have I taken in this physical world around me?

• 59:58John R. Miles?

  Today's episode resonated with you. Please share it with a parent, teacher, grandparent, or someone who has helped shape your life in a meaningful way. And don't forget to download today's companion workbook and reflection guide at my Substack at theignitedlife.net. I'm John Miles and you've been passion struck. Until next time.