Pod Insights Park Predators The Mountaineer About this episode An experienced mountaineer from France is abducted in an Algerian national park and an international incident ensues. World leaders hunt down a group of suspected killers, only to find that many of them have gone underground and continue to evade justice to this day.
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0:30 Speaker 01 Hi, park enthusiasts. I'm your host, Delia Diambra. And the case I'm going to tell you about today takes place in Jodura National Park in North Algeria, an area of the world that is blanketed in large part by the Sahara Desert, with just a small section of green mountains near the northern coast. The national park was initially established in 1925, when Algeria was governed by France, a time of profound change and tension for the country. But when it gained its independence in 1962, the park eventually earned its status as a national park of Algeria, though it wasn't all celebrations for residents with deep roots reaching back centuries. In the 1930s, even after the park was established, France continued to claim ownership of
1:14 Speaker 01 native peoples' land. And when the new Algerian state was created in the 60s, that land just went right back to the new government, not back to the native people. Unrest and conflict for years destroyed parts of the park, but it was officially rehabilitated in 1983. One look at a picture of it now, and you'll see that it's home to some breathtaking landscapes. You can see spectacular views of mountains as high as over 7,500 feet. There are also a lot of juniper, pine, and cedar forests in the park, as well as steep gorges and unique cliff faces that were formed by glaciers. But what can happen in a beautiful place like this, as the nation's Melika Rahel described as, "The fight between terrorism and tourism is something a group of outdoorsmen
1:59 Speaker 01 in September 2014 had to discover for themselves in the worst possible way."
2:05 Speaker 01 And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to cover this case. In addition to using this platform to feature cases from countries outside of North America, today's story is one that's hard for any park enthusiast to imagine, let alone believe could happen. I want to say upfront that there are many names in this story that were not in my native tongue, English. I tried my very best to pronounce all of them correctly, but if I didn't nail them perfectly, just keep that in mind. Just like me, you'll probably have a visceral reaction too when you learn of what transpired when an experienced mountaineer crossed paths with terrorist fighters. What began as two parties coming in contact with one another turned into an international incident that would change the course of many people's lives
2:47 Speaker 01 across Africa, Europe, and the Middle East, including the family of a renowned outdoor enthusiast who lived and died chasing adventure. This is Park Predators.
3:41 Speaker 01 On Sunday night, September 21st, 2014, 55-year-old Herve Gordel and five other companions were traveling through a stretch of mountains in Jirjira National Park when they came up to a group of men blocking the road. Herve and his companions weren't very far from the next village, so I imagine seeing signs of human activity was to be expected. However, something about the group of guys stopping cars felt off.
4:08 Speaker 01 When it was Hervé's group's turn to speak with the mysterious figures gathered by the roadway, things turned south quickly. The source material doesn't go into detail about what exactly happened during those few minutes, but based on what I could find, the guys who stopped Hervé and his climbing companions decided to kidnap them and hold them hostage. The strangers put them all into a car they'd stolen from a man nearby and took off into the night. Where they went is unknown. According to reporting by Al Jazeera, the Algerian natives who'd been accompanying Hervé were held captive by their abductors for 14 hours, but then abruptly released. The guides, who were, I imagine, confused by what was happening, tried to take Hervé with them, but their captors refused to let him go.
4:53 Speaker 01 The group's reason for setting the others free and only keeping Hervé was simple: the locals were not their enemy, he was. According to an article by BBC News, Hervé had been to Algeria a handful of times before this incident. However, he'd not specifically explored the national park, so I think it's safe to assume he was relying on the Algerian guides who were with him to show him the ropes. Anne Colini reported for The Independent that the purpose of the trip in September 2014 was to scout out some climbing spots and hopefully find a new way to cross through the national park's mountain range. From what I gathered reading the source material, setting off to discover a new route through a mountain range he'd never climbed before was totally something Hervé would be down
5:38 Speaker 01 for. His friends said he was kind of obsessed with mountain ranges and usually traveled into remote places that most people wouldn't go to. However, he was smart about it and always exercised caution. Along with his wits, he usually brought a camera with him. One of his great loves, aside from nature, was photography, particularly landscape photography. According to an article by Al Jazeera, he'd arrived in Algeria from France on Saturday, September 20th, about a week after celebrating his 55th birthday. The plan from the start was for him and his Algerian companions to hike together for 10 days while exploring different caves in the national park. They'd packed enough supplies to stop and camp overnight along the way. And this adventure was nothing out of the ordinary for him.
6:24 Speaker 01 He was from a suburb of Nice, France, and worked mostly as a guide in France's Mircontour National Park, which was conveniently close to his house. That article from The Independent I mentioned earlier reported that in 1987, he and some of his mountaineering friends had opened a guide business not far from his hometown. And they ran it out of a little shop on an unassuming street corner. Together with his partner, friend Sois Grand Claude, he had a son and a daughter. In addition to having led many trips in and out of the French Alps in his career, he'd also spent two decades traveling the world looking for other mountain ranges to climb. In countries like Vietnam, Nepal, Jordan, and Morocco, he trained other hiking guides on how to lead expeditions and survive in harsh environments.
7:07 Speaker 01 From everything I've read about Hervé, it seems that his life was one of absolute adventure. As a young kid, his dad had taken him on expeditions in the outdoors, and that really fostered his love for nature. He once said he felt lucky to have a job that let him work in nature and, quote, "earn a living away from the offices," end quote. Folks who knew him told a French newspaper that he was extremely dedicated to his job, passionate about the outdoors, and inspired people with his photography. Everyone who'd spent time with him said he was easy to get along with, generally pleasant to travel beside, and made friends everywhere he went. As far as mountaineering qualifications go, he had many. Anne Colini wrote in her piece for The Independent that he'd graduated from a respected climbing
7:52 Speaker 01 and ski school in France and served in the military for France's elite mountain corps unit. Throughout his service, he'd become an extremely proficient cave explorer, rock climber, and survivalist. Why he became the target of an international kidnapping seems to be a combination of his nationality and really, really tragic timing. Let me explain. On Friday, September 19th, 2014, so two days before Hervé was abducted, tensions between Islamic State fighters in Iraq and world nations like the United States and France hit a fever pitch. Basically, IS fighters, also known as Islamic State of Iraq, had taken over a bunch of municipalities and villages in Iraq and Syria.
8:34 Speaker 01 Leaders of Western governments didn't like that and proceeded to take military action against the Islamic State. BBC News reported that in response to IS leaders' operations, France's then-president François Hollande ordered his air force to begin bombing IS-captured areas in northeastern Iraq. The goal was to kill or oust remaining factions of the jihadist group and assist Iraqi and Kurdish ground forces from the air. About a month before this all went down, the United States began to conduct a barrage of airstrikes in Iraq, and France had agreed to be the next Western nation to follow suit. Which meant the Islamic State and any group aligned with it considered France and anyone who hailed from there to be an enemy of its cause.
9:19 Speaker 01 Now, when Hervé was kidnapped, he'd been traversing in the Tizi-Uzou region in northern Algeria. France24 reported that an extremist group named Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, also known by the acronym AQIM, had carried out several random terrorist attacks in that area prior to September 2014. Part of the reason why that group had been so effective in that region was because in the 1990s, AQIM and other factions of Islamist terrorist groups had used the forests and caverns surrounding the national park to stay off the grid. Some of their other reported activities in the region included abducting Algerian businessmen and extorting them for millions of dollars to fund their cause. John Hall and Peter Allen reported for the Daily Mail
10:03 Speaker 01 that in the fall of 2014, there were some 30,000 French nationals living or traveling in Algeria. It's just unlucky for Hervé that he happened to get captured seemingly at random. But naturally, when news broke that he'd been taken, most folks assumed it was AQIM, or maybe an offshoot of AQIM that was behind the kidnapping. However, BBC News reported that when Hervé first went missing, no one knew for sure exactly who was responsible. No specific group had come out and publicly taken credit for his abduction. French officials had a fairly good idea, though. They believed the masterminds were somehow connected to Islamic State fighters in the Middle East. To France's government, it was not a coincidence that Hervé had been kidnapped mere hours
10:48 Speaker 01 after the Islamic State just so happened to disseminate an audio message asking its supporters around the globe to murder anyone who hailed from a country that opposed their occupation of Iraq. I mean, in the group's nearly 42-minute statement, a spokesman had literally encouraged all IS followers around the world to, quote, "Kill a disbelieving American or European, especially the spiteful and filthy French," end quote. So yeah, that was a pretty clear message which almost guaranteed international travelers like Hervé could find themselves in harm's way. Despite IS's disturbing broadcast, France continued to carry out bombings in Iraq.
11:31 Speaker 01 However, government officials did advise French citizens who were traveling in countries with documented IS presence to be extremely careful. BBC News reported that government officials raised the threat level to 30 of France's embassies in the Middle East and Africa because of the threats made in the audio recording. That figure eventually climbed to include 40 world nations. But unfortunately, France's safety advisory came far too late for Hervé. France24 reported that on Monday, September 22, within 24 hours of French leaders learning he'd been kidnapped, a four-minute-long video of him being held as a hostage began circulating on jihadist websites.
12:12 Speaker 01 The video showed him in an unknown location surrounded by hooded IS fighters who were holding rifles. He was directed to state his age, date of birth, and name, as well as make a plea to France's president to stop all military operations against the Islamic State's forces in Iraq. He spoke into the camera and stated, quote, "I am in the hands of Jund al-Halifa, an Algerian armed group. This armed group is asking me to ask you not to intervene in Iraq. They are holding me as a hostage, and I ask you, Mr. President, to do everything to get me out of this bad situation, and I thank you," end quote.
12:51 Speaker 01 According to Chris Johnston and Kim Wilshere's reporting for The Guardian, at various points throughout the video, IS fighters threatened to kill Hervé within 24 hours if France didn't stop bombing Islamic State strongholds in the Middle East. Officials quickly learned that the specific terrorists who kidnapped Hervé were part of a group that's name, when translated into English, means "soldiers of the Khalifat in Algeria," or "Khalifat soldiers of Algeria." It was a splinter group of AQIM operations in Algeria that had already killed 11 soldiers in a military convoy in April of 2014, so just a few months before Hervé was kidnapped. In mid-September, right before he was taken, the leader of this group abandoned al-Qaeda's cause
13:34 Speaker 01 and swore allegiance to the Islamic State. Shortly after the video of Hervé surfaced online and French officials verified it as real, President Hollande got on the phone with Algeria's prime minister and stayed in constant contact with him in order to know what was going on in Algeria, as well as, I imagine, come up with a plan to find and rescue Hervé. The next day, September 23rd, France's foreign minister publicly confirmed to global news outlets that Hervé had in fact been taken by a terrorist group. He promised that the French government would do everything they could to free him, while in the same breath emphasizing that the kidnapping would not affect or impact France's military actions against Islamic State fighters. The prime minister of France was even blunter on the topic
14:19 Speaker 01 when he told a French radio station, "If you give in, if you go back one inch, you give terrorism this victory." But some media outlets weren't totally convinced that France had a true zero-tolerance policy when it came to negotiating with terrorists. You see, according to reporting by BBC News, in October 2013, so about a year before Hervé was taken, four men from France who'd been abducted by militants in West Africa were reportedly released after rumored ransoms worth millions of euros were apparently paid on their behalf. Of course, the French government's official response to this situation in 2013 was denial, and leaders stated the ransoms for those men were never fulfilled.
15:03 Speaker 01 But regardless of whether France had negotiated in secret with terrorists in the past to free hostages or not, the reality in Hervé's case was that France's president wasn't going to take that path. On the morning of Wednesday, September 24th, three days after the kidnapping, everything in the case changed. The manhunt that France and Algeria were just beginning to put together came to a screeching halt. The terrorists holding Hervé Gourdele hostage posted another video.
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16:43 Speaker 01 According to reporting by BBC News, after Hervé's captors realized that French officials weren't going to stop bombing Islamic State strongholds in Iraq, they made good on their previous threat. They executed him and videotaped his death for the world to see. I don't want to go into specific details of what the video actually depicts because I don't want people who knew and loved Hervé to have to relive that moment. But all you need to know is that he was murdered in a way that I and many of the news agencies who reported on this story consider to be inhumane. Before executing him, his captors allowed him to speak for a few short moments to tell his family how much he loved them. When word of his murder made it to France's president, he publicly denounced the killing and said,
17:28 Speaker 01 "Our compatriot has been murdered cruelly in an uncourly way by a terrorist group. Hervé Gourdeau was killed because he was French. My determination is total, and this aggression only strengthens it. France will continue to fight terrorists everywhere. The operations against Islamic State will continue. The military strikes will continue as long as necessary." End quote. He went on to express that the incident saddened everyone in France and was something other world nations should pay attention to because it showcased the real threat ISIS terrorist groups posed to the world stage. Barack Obama, who was the president of the United States at the time, expressed shared sadness over the killing
18:11 Speaker 01 and promised France's president and the people of France that America would continue to stand alongside France in the fight against terrorism. BBC News reported that even though this was the first time a French national had actually been kidnapped and killed as a political prisoner, it was not the first time a person from the Western world had been abducted and murdered by suspected jihadist fighters connected to ISIS. In August of 2014, American journalists James Foley and Stephen Sotloff were executed. Their deaths were also filmed and later posted online. Another case was that of British humanitarian worker David Haynes, who'd been kidnapped and killed by a terrorist group in 2014. In response to executions like this, and specifically Hervé's murder,
18:55 Speaker 01 the mayor of Nice, France, told BBC News, "Today, a war was declared on France. We've been turning a blind eye to what's been happening in our backyards. And this is where it has led us." End quote. News of Hervé's kidnapping and murder had a significant impact on Algeria's citizens, too. An article for The New Arab reported that many people from Western countries like Germany, France, and the Netherlands who'd scheduled vacations or trips for September and October 2014 canceled their plans. These cancellations really hurt a lot of local businesses whose livelihoods depended on foreigners spending money in Algeria.
19:34 Speaker 01 Since trying to save the Frenchman was now out of the question, Algerian and French authorities pivoted their efforts to recover his remains and hunt down his killers. RFI reported that Algeria had already dispatched 1,500 of its own troops to scour the mountains in the region where they believed Hervé’s abductors were hiding out. According to John Hall and Peter Allen’s reporting for The Daily Mail and another article by RFI, by September 25th, the number of military personnel trying to find his remains increased to 3,000 and included Marines, helicopters, and scent-tracking dogs. While that was going on, his family back in France held a rally to remember him. Chris Harris reported for EuroNews that similar events to honor the slain mountaineer
20:18 Speaker 01 happened in other cities across France, too. The country’s president enacted a three-day mourning period and ordered all flags be flown at half-staff. In an official statement to the press, Hervé’s family said, “We thank all the French citizens for their immense support. We know that in many French cities, rallies will take place. We, the family and loved ones of Hervé, want these events to take place with dignity and restraint. Our thoughts and words go to Hervé. We will remember the man he was, his kindness and passion for the mountains, and the men and women that live there. We will not tolerate hateful, provocative, or political speech, whatever side they come from. We don’t wish to speak to elected officials.
21:01 Speaker 01 We will all be ordinary citizens, united in grief, anxious to pay tribute to Hervé, and above all, respectful of the tolerant values he embodied so generously.”
21:14 Speaker 01 Annabelle Grossman reported for The Daily Mail that Muslim leaders across France came out and formally condemned the kidnapping and murder. On the day of the rallies in his honor, officials at mosques across the country emphasized that Islam was a religion which sought peace and respected human life. Leaders insisted that what the Islamic State had done was not a reflection of their belief system and did not represent what they stood for. According to reporting by France 24, other French Muslims described the pressure on their community to denounce Islamic militancy as “Islamophobic madness.” Thankfully, no one had to wait long before updates of what authorities were doing to avenge Hervé started coming in.
21:56 Speaker 01 The Associated Press reported that about a week after his execution, a spokeswoman for Algeria's Justice Ministry Department told news publications that the government had identified several of the suspected kidnappers and issued warrants for their arrests. The charges against these individuals included kidnapping, illegal detention, and murder. These suspects' names were released to the public, but I couldn't find any source material that goes into detail about how the Algerian authorities figured out who exactly they were. But what I do know is that according to reporting by RFI, in early October, authorities made a second announcement and confirmed that there were at least 15 people believed to have been involved in the kidnapping and murder. At the top of that roster was the person authorities considered to be their most-wanted man,
22:42 Speaker 01 37-year-old Abdel Malik Amzawi Goury, the leader of the terrorist group that had abducted and killed Hervé. Algerian officials also wanted to get their hands on several of Goury's followers, as well as his second-in-command. Within days of announcing that there were 15 people involved in the plot, Algerian officials issued another statement, reporting that members of the army had located and killed at least five of those alleged suspects. RFI reported that the men were all between 20 and 54 years old, and some of them had been hiding out at a campsite a few hours away from the location of the initial abduction. One of the men believed to have been killed in that raid was the actual person who wielded the weapon that killed Hervé. Al Jazeera and RFI reported that when Algerian soldiers
23:27 Speaker 01 searched what remained of the suspect's campsite, they found batteries, explosives, and a cellphone lying around. The spot was eventually determined to be the location where the execution had been filmed. Unfortunately, though, Hervé's remains were nowhere to be found. It wasn't until a few months later, in late December 2014, that Algerian troops finally caught up with the terrorist group's leader. According to BBC News, forces located him and some of his fighters in a town on the outskirts of Algiers and killed them. When authorities searched their convoy, they found firearms, a bunch of ammunition, cellphones, and what are described as explosive belts, which I don't even want to know what those were intended for. Still, the last big piece was finding Hervé and getting his remains back to France,
24:12 Speaker 01 where he could be laid to rest properly. That moment finally came on January 15, 2015, nearly four months after his abduction and murder.
24:23 Speaker 01 The Times of Israel reported that members of one of Algeria's expert army units had received information from someone in their custody that Erve's body was buried in a wooded area near a town not far from where he'd initially been kidnapped. Sure enough, when members of this elite unit, along with several scent dogs, started digging around where the tipster had told them to look, they discovered a man's body buried in the earth. He was missing his head, but it didn't take long for officials to conduct some tests and connect with Erve's sisters, who'd traveled to Algeria with two pathologists from France. That's when the remains were positively identified as his. A terrifying detail I saw while reading the Times of Israel article about this part of the case was that it wasn't just his remains that were buried in the wooded area.
25:08 Speaker 01 There was something else horrible there, too. The group that had put his body in a makeshift grave had also planted explosives all around it. Many people believe this was done with the intent to blow up anyone who searched for him. Thankfully, the military personnel who excavated the site caught on to this early, so no one was actually harmed by the booby-trapped grave, but still, just the thought of that is really disturbing. A few days later, on January 26th, his remains were flown to Paris, France. Right before crews loaded his casket into the airplane, folks in Algeria held a brief ceremony for him and propped his hiking guide backpack on top of his coffin to essentially declare that despite the tragedy of what had happened to him, it was his brave fervor
25:52 Speaker 01 for exploring the great outdoors of the region that had brought him to Algeria in the first place. And that's what he should be remembered for. I imagine laying him to rest in his home country provided a bit of closure for his family. But what everyone really wanted to see was the rest of his captors held accountable for the crime. A criminal trial was imminent, but first, Algerian authorities had to find the rest of the people they believed were responsible. That task would take time, though. Years, actually. Until finally, in 2021, the wheels of justice began to start turning. Quickly.
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28:12 Speaker 01 According to an article by the International Business Times, more than six years after Herve was abducted and killed by Islamic State-connected extremists, 14 people were listed as confirmed suspects in the case. Unfortunately, in all that time, Algerian authorities had only managed to capture and arrest one of those 14 people. And just to clarify here, because I know it might be confusing, but based on what I read in the source material, the leader of the group behind the murder was on the list of the original 15 suspects that authorities claimed were to blame. But since he'd been killed back in December 2014, he couldn't be tried. So that left 14 suspects remaining. It was also reported that between 2014 and 2021,
28:55 Speaker 01 another seven suspects had been killed by the Algerian army. And I don't know if that number included the leader of the group or not, but if we're to assume he was, then that would put the total headcount of people who were physically unable to be prosecuted for the crime in 2021 somewhere at around seven or eight, depending on whether you were looking at the original 15 names or just the 14 names that authorities were taking to court in 2021. I know, it's all a bit confusing. But what is clear, though, is that by February 2021, one named suspect was in custody facing charges of kidnapping, torture, premeditated murder, and joining an armed terrorist group. The source material states that defendant's name was Abdel Malik Amzawi. There were also another seven defendants who were going to be tried
29:40 Speaker 01 in what's called absentia, meaning they couldn't be found or had escaped arrest. Anyone else on the known suspect list, well, the source material isn't really clear about what was going to happen to them.
29:52 Speaker 01 That article I mentioned earlier by the International Business Times stated that specific charges against the rest of the perpetrators were unknown at the time. What I can tell you, though, is that when all this news about charges and upcoming trials was coming out, each of the Algerian hiking guides who'd been with Hervé when he was kidnapped had also been slapped with criminal charges for allegedly failing to notify law enforcement sooner that he'd been abducted. According to the source material I read, these guys had all been accused of waiting too long to tell police that Hervé had been taken. But nothing spells out how the authorities determined this was true. One thing the guides were guilty of, though, was failing to disclose that they'd been hosting a foreign national on their trip, which is what Hervé, a Frenchman, was as far as the country of Algeria was concerned.
30:37 Speaker 01 There, if you're a local hiking guide, you have to let the government know things like that before you just take off into the mountains. Because of these purported issues with what the hiking guides did or didn't do, Algerian prosecutors believe that Hervé's killers had been able to make their way out of the national park undetected. Like it or not, the Algerian guides were each facing up to five years in jail if convicted. One of the men's attorneys argued, though, that they weren't to blame for what had happened. The lawyer emphasized that very little time had passed between when the guides themselves were finally released after 14 hours in captivity and when they contacted the police. Herve's family's response to these revelations and finally seeing some movement in the case was what you'd expect.
31:21 Speaker 01 Françoise, his partner, told news outlets that a trial would bring them all a lot of hope. They'd waited a long time to have their day in an Algerian courtroom. But unfortunately, they'd have to wait just a bit longer. France 24 reported that right as the trial was about to get underway in early February, the main suspect, who Algerian authorities had in custody, underwent hip surgery. The judge in the case ruled that because of the defendant's health issues, the trial had to be delayed a few weeks. Françoise told AFP News that the delay was disappointing because they'd already waited so long to see justice served, but she still had faith that things would work out. She told the news outlet, quote, "We put a lot of hope in the Algerian justice system,
32:03 Speaker 01 and that justice will be rendered after seven years of a very, very long wait," end quote. Once proceedings picked back up again on February 18, 2021, it only took one day for the court in Algeria to convict the lone defendant, who was physically present to stand trial. BBC News reported that he was sentenced to death, but that punishment didn't really mean a whole lot because Algeria had a longstanding moratorium in place forbidding executions. When that defendant spoke in court, he denied involvement in the crime and said that he'd only been found guilty to, quote, "Close the case and please the French," end quote. The Algerian hiking guides, who were facing those charges for reporting Herve's kidnapping too late, were acquitted of any crimes.
32:49 Speaker 01 As I wrap up this episode, I can't help but feel a bit disappointed with how things played out, at least as far as what happened in court. It's almost like so much has been left unanswered, but that's how cases like this go sometimes. There isn't always a nice bow to tie things up at the end. What I keep coming back to is just how tragic this case is. I mean, the victim was a highly skilled mountaineer who likely encountered a lot of sketchy and dangerous situations in his career, but the one scenario he probably never thought he'd come up against was a band of rogue militants who were using the beautiful landscape of northern Africa as camouflage, and who specifically had an objective to murder French citizens.
33:31 Speaker 01 As of the time of this recording, the United States has a travel advisory in effect suggesting increased caution when traveling to Algeria due to terrorism and kidnapping. It's heartbreaking that a place with such a rich cultural history and landscape is rife with acts like this that, as Malika Rahel for the Nation writes, quote, "are meant to destroy, once again, dreams of a peaceful collective life," end quote. Like me and countless other tourists seeking adventure, Hervé represents the wanderer in so many of us. For his sake and the sake of his family, I hope he died knowing his story will live on in the legacy he leaves behind. I hope somehow he can know the beloved
34:11 Speaker 01 figure he's become to his family, the citizens of France, and all outdoor enthusiasts across the globe.
34:23 Speaker 01 Park Predators is an AudioChuck production. You can view a list of all the source material for this episode on our website, parkpredators.com, and you can also follow Park Predators on Instagram, @ParkPredators.
34:40 Speaker 01 So, what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?
34:48 Speaker 01 One day last year, detectives knocked on the door of a multimillion dollar mansion in Los Angeles County. Inside, they
34:56 Speaker 06 Found a strange scene. A dining area converted into classrooms with children and toddlers seated at rows of desks. The couple that lived there had 21 kids.
35:08 Speaker 07 It's a house that looks like a castle, but it's under investigation for being a possible factory, a baby factory.
35:15 Speaker 06 Where had these children come from? Almost all of them were born through surrogates. But those surrogates had been deceived.
35:23 Speaker 01 Me and my coworker, we named her the surrogate pimp. That's the one time that we called the cops because she was screaming. And then he pulled out a gun.
35:31 Speaker 06 I started crying. I was like, what the heck did I just get myself into? I'm Ava Kaufman. The Journey is a new series from In the Dark and The New Yorker. Find it now in the In the Dark feed, wherever you get your podcasts.
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