How being straight became gay

When did liking women, as a straight man, become gay? Today, we posit that the “logical” endpoint of being in the manosphere is that eventually being so hateful toward women dictates that liking them, having sex with them, or getting married to them, is actually gay. Podcaster, activist, and pornstar Siri Dahl joins us to discuss… that. Our guest Siri Dahl’s work can be found at https://siridahl.com/. Her podcast First Thirst can be found wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can also follow her on Bluesky @siridahl.com (SFW), X @thesiridahl (NSFW), and Instagram @thesiridahlagain (SFW). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 0:26Ryan Broderick?

  Let's start with a softball question. You know, how do you think men are doing right now?

• 0:31Speaker 02

  I think men are doing bad, badly, poorly. Yes, but I would also like to add to that. I think men are doing poorly because everyone's doing poorly.

• 1:00Ryan Broderick?

  How would you sort of genuinely describe the state of men at the moment? You know, with the understanding that everyone's kind of doing badly. But how specifically do you think men are at the moment?

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Um, disappointed, I think, would be the main thing that comes up in mind for me.

• 1:18Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that sounds right to me. That sounds, I think, based on the right wing, especially chatter that I see, I think that's like, kind of the way that they're thinking about things. And today, we're going to be talking about really kind of like the logical endpoint of the manosphere and a lot of these disappointed men, which is that they are now so hateful towards women, especially, that they think it's kind of gay to get married or talk to them or have sex with them. And I am Ryan Broderick. I am not one of those men. I want to be really clear up top. Grant Irvin, my producer, I'm pretty sure isn't one of those men. You might be hearing from him from time to time. And this is Panic World, a show about how the internet warps our minds, our culture, and eventually, reality.

• 2:02Ryan Broderick?

  And with us today is podcaster, activist, porn star, Siri Dahl. Welcome to the show. How are you?

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Hello, I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. Uh, just my voice is a little different than it normally is because I just got back from AVN and I have a cold.

• 2:17Ryan Broderick?

  Not a, not a problem. It's like a good podcast baritone. That's good. Like that works for us.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, I'm just a little more vocal fry than usual.

• 2:26Ryan Broderick?

  As I teased at the top, uh, I will be saying some pretty insane things based on your pick for what today's topic is. So I'm just going to read it straight right now. Uh, you, I think you should explain to the audience, your theory on how, and I quote, being straight became gay.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, the manosphere is pretty, pretty gay in it. This is like.

• 2:53Ryan Broderick?

  All right. Yeah, we got it. Okay, cool. Uh, yeah.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  I mean, if you, if you just look at like some of the top manosphere podcasters from, you know, just guys like Andrew Tate, who are mostly talking, I mean, I mean, he talks, he obviously does, or at least more recently, he started talking about political things. But mainly he just talks about like, oh yeah, like here's how to sex traffic your own women that you find in Romania. And then on the other end of that is like Nick Fuentes, I guess, who's just building his own weird cult. And Nick Fuentes is definitely gay.

• 3:27Ryan Broderick?

  I, uh, for, for the sanity of our legal team, we're going to say allegedly, uh, or that there are rumors that he might be, but, uh, yes, from, I can journalistically say that I have seen many, many rumors that Nick Fuentes is, is gay or, or at least dates men from time to time.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  I have seen the same rumors and, and even there was that clip recently when he was asked if he's gay and he, and the way he responds is just like, okay, that's very convincing. Very sure.

• 4:01Ryan Broderick?

  Yes. I think you're dead on that the sort of like super toxic manosphere has these like weird monastic elements to it that have also sort of combined with, I don't know, like hyper masculine ideas about how people are supposed to look and behave. And it's all become very homoerotic in the last year or two.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  I think to a degree it always has been. I just think it's like, because internet, because computer now the like, sort of what's always been this like looming. Kind of element of misogyny is now being concentrated and concentrated so much via internet activity that and algorithmic bias and things like that, that, that now it really has done this like full Ouroboros of

• 4:50Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  The straightest man you can be is one who never has sex with a woman.

• 4:55Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like very much like, I mean, I've seen jokes that like the manosphere is like white Taliban. And I think that that's sort of part of it too, in a way, where it's like, you don't want to be around women at all anymore.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:08Ryan Broderick?

  To start here, I want my producer Grant to pull up a picture. This was taken in January 2026 at a club in Miami. I'd like to try to name all of the awful men in this photo.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  I definitely know two of them. I think I might know three total. And it's so funny because I have like seen so many clips from this and I still cannot remember the names of a chunk of these guys because I don't, because I'm not in their

• 5:30Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that's fine. Actually, that's good.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  So on the, on the far left, we have Nick Fuentes.

• 5:34Ryan Broderick?

  That's right.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  The guy in the puff vest and the next guy in the pink suit cannot remember their names. I think that the guy kind of hiding behind this other guy is, is that Sneako?

• 5:48Ryan Broderick?

  That's Sneako, yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know who this dude with the shitty goatee is. And then the guy on the far right is Clavicular.

• 5:55Ryan Broderick?

  That's right. Clavicular, who on this trip to Miami, learned that Jester maxing in the club is the new meta. If you didn't know that, I want to make sure we got that.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:06Ryan Broderick?

  That's right. So we've got Nick Fuentes, the guy in the puffer jacket. I never remember the name of either, but he kind of doesn't matter. He's kind of like C tier or D tier.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  He seems to be the, the token like brown man? So they can all like pretend that they're not Nazis? I mean, Nick Fuentes is also

• 6:27Ryan Broderick?

  He's Hispanic and I think Sneako is

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Hispanic origin. So yeah, it's

• 6:32Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I did see a couple of right wingers bring that point up and they said that Hitler would kill himself again if he saw this photo of his biggest supporters in 2026.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:41Ryan Broderick?

  So the guy in the pink, that's Andrew Tate's brother Tristan.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I should, I should have been able to tell by the doofy face.

• 6:49Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, goatee guy, his name, I actually don't know either, but I know that he like is kind of like a pickup artist kind of guy. And then, yes, clavicular is the newest sort of Gen Z looks maxer. I've been following these guys, you know, and their misadventures on, uh, Kick, I believe is the streaming service they're using. And I, and I do think it's like a very strange evolution of this world where they're basically running like a 24/7 Big Brother house with each other. And they're all, like, I watched a video the other day of Vitaly, the Russian YouTuber, who just got freed from Filipino jail, injecting clavicular with some kind of like boner medicine to give him a boner at a party.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Um, I wonder if it's the boner medicine that is commonly used in the, uh, adult industry.

• 7:34Ryan Broderick?

  Is it injected into the base of your penis?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Actually, that's a good question. I mean, there's a couple, there's a couple different ones. The one that is most popular current day, though, I'm not sure.

• 7:47Ryan Broderick?

  Okay. Well, that's the one that Vitaly.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  There was an older, an older one that was actually, you would inject like, almost like at the tip more, but.

• 7:55Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Let me set the scene here. So they're in some sort of.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I figured.

• 8:01Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So clavicular and Vitaly and a bunch of these guys are all in some sort of empty McMansion on the outskirts of Miami, I have to assume. I think they were all going to Aiden Ross's boxing match or something. Oh, man, all of this is awful. And like I said, Vitaly has been in a Filipino jail for like the last six to nine months. And he's been.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  What, what did he?

• 8:22Ryan Broderick?

  He was harassing people for videos. And so the, the Filipino government wanted to deport him, but they kind of held him for, for months and months, deported him to Russia.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  He was in jail for being annoying.

• 8:33Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, yes. He was, he was in jail for being annoying.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  All right, got it.

• 8:36Ryan Broderick?

  So now he's out, he has made his way to the US and he's at a party with clavicular. Clavicular has basically just been like snorting ketamine on live streams for the last two weeks with these guys. And he seems really out of it. And he's like talking to some quote unquote baddies at this party. And Vitaly's like, let me help you with the baddies. And then clavicular is like, okay. And so they go into a room and then you only hear sounds. And then clavicular comes out and he's like, he just injected something into the base of my penis. It's going to give me a boner.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, if you're on enough ketamine, what else are you gonna do?

• 9:08Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um.

• 9:11Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So what do you make of that? What do you, what do you make of all of that?

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Okay, so I do have a unique perspective since I'm familiar with such such drugs.

• 9:21Ryan Broderick?

  Sure.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Not every male performer uses them, but I mean, it's on a porn set when you it's kind of a hard thing to keep a reliable boner when you have sometimes you have a long break, like you have to cut and there's a long break because you have to reset and you need to go back into the sex scene and there's like 10 people watching all the crew members and stuff. So you're not even really supposed to talk about it if you use those drugs because it's like it's like it's kind of taboo, but it's kind of taboo for I would say maybe a good reason just because it's like very discouraged to be on any substance.

• 9:54Ryan Broderick?

  Right, right.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  You definitely can't like have alcohol or anything like that. But I mean, yes, there are male performers who use drugs to help with a boner. So I mean, the injection thing, I know that to most men who aren't familiar with that kind of kind of medicine, it's like, oh, God, that's terrifying. For me, I'm in I work in an industry where it is a little more normalized. And I'm aware that like, there are people who just, you know, want to use it for one reason or another, and they're using it like responsibly. So I try not to really judge there. It's like your body, your choice. But, okay, in the context of clavicular being like having another man inject this into the base of his dick for him.

• 10:37Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Were the the baddies in question, did we see them at any point?

• 10:41Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, you see them before and you see them after and they and when he comes out, he explains to the baddies like what has happened and they just laugh at him and it's like and seem horrified.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Of course they do.

• 10:53Ryan Broderick?

  Because like.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:54Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, he went to a back room and got a penis injection.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Literally, it feels like a comedy sketch that's like almost like tongue in cheek, like, yeah, like, I'm totally straight because I'm getting my dick injected by another man so I can talk to these. Hot girls. Also, he's just gonna talk to them? It's like, why are you at the point?

• 11:12Ryan Broderick?

  He says like-

• 11:13Speaker 02

  You wanna immediately, you wanna do the dick injection immediately before sex. Truly, you do. You wanna do it immediately before sex. Otherwise, you could end up with a blood clot in your dick and have to go to the hospital and they like, cut it open and drain it.

• 11:23Ryan Broderick?

  I think he has a line where he's like, I have 30 minutes if anyone wants to go upstairs with me. And all the girls like laugh at him.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:29Ryan Broderick?

  But I do think like, there's an interesting connection between the adult film world and this one, at least aesthetically, because these guys are taking stuff that's, as you said, has been on the internet forever. And they're now like actively performing it. Like, it's not like keyboard warriors on 4chan being like, girls are gross and I'm an incel.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:49Ryan Broderick?

  It's like, I look like a G.I. Joe figure and I'm gonna like perform this in public and on the internet. And it looks really silly and ridiculous.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, the key is like, I don't know where they're finding the baddies that are women who are willing to go to a house full of these men, which seems like-

• 12:06Ryan Broderick?

  Deeply unsafe.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Deeply unsafe, yes. Um, my guess is that they're being compensated.

• 12:12Ryan Broderick?

  100%.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Or whether, whether by the party hosts or compensated more indirectly because of the clout they might get, you know? Like, if they're OnlyFans baddies, if they're appearing in these viral videos with these dudes, they're very likely to like, experience a big surge in new subscribers. Means new money.

• 12:35Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no question in my mind why these women are there. They're there because they're gonna get paid somehow, some way. They're gonna get compensated for putting their lord knows what at risk for being in the presence of these shitty guys. It 100% is a performance, and that's the funniest part, is it's a performance for other men.

• 12:53Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  If these dudes had spent any amount of time around women or bothered to- Try to understand women as human beings, fellow human beings, then they would be aware that like the vast majority of women are not into this shit that they're doing.

• 13:12Ryan Broderick?

  No.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Not even in the same like universe as what most women would find attractive in a man.

• 13:18Ryan Broderick?

  Clavicular needs to get like those big glasses and start dressing like Grant and they gotta listen to Claro. I, that's like a good first step for him, you know?

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's this performative masculinity that is entirely, completely based in a homoerotic gaze.

• 13:36Ryan Broderick?

  This is a post from a guy who was following one of the streams at home and he was watching it and he screenshotted it, a pic, a moment where a woman sits on Clavicular's lap at this Miami streamer house. And the guy writes, "Bro is in a room with Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes, Tristan Tate, Myron, etc." I think Myron was probably one of the guys that we couldn't name. Uh, and he is distracted by a random hoe. This is why controlling less is important. And I think this gives the whole game away because it's like, I, I've been covering some version of this scene for 15 years now. And the very beginnings, it was guys being like, "Come to my seminar. I'll teach you how to like cold approach women at bars or bookstores and you'll meet girls and then you'll be happy."

• 14:19Speaker 03

  Did he help you figure out what to do if it's like the middle of the day and there's a set?

• 14:23Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. You gotta do, you gotta do a two set, a three set. You gotta demonstrate value. I know I, I've, I've interviewed the guy who wrote the game, right?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  I'm so sorry.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Was there any sleight of hand?

• 14:32Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, yeah. You, you, well, here's the thing. If you become a good pick up artist, you just become a magician. But here's the thing, like I understand that world actually. Like I understand like, okay, I'm lonely and I want to meet people. I don't know how, I'm willing to pay money for it. Somewhere along the line, probably, you know, like most things in like the middle 2010s, everything became like way more politically charged, polarizing, violent, xenophobic. And the idea of becoming this kind of person to meet women has actually totally disappeared. And now it's like, we want to become this type of man to only hang out with other men like this and eventually overthrow the government and force women to be with us.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Well, when all else fails, Ryan, what do you want these guys to do? Go to therapy?

• 15:16Ryan Broderick?

  No.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Here's the other thing. If they got the fantasy world that- They apparently want where women are have no rights.

• 15:25Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Are completely dependent on men like they don't. What these dudes don't realize is that the, um, the rate of, of a lot of husbands like oopsie daisy, drinking rat poison in their coffee would skyrocket like crazy like.

• 15:43Ryan Broderick?

  There is no world where Andrew Tate gets a wife that doesn't poison him.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Correct. But that is a hundred percent. I'm so serious. Like that's exactly what the case would be.

• 15:55Ryan Broderick?

  You're exactly right. And as these guys have become sort of more focused on, we're going to become Uber mentions, and we're going to use the government to give us like state sponsored girlfriends or whatever. They've attracted men who are less and less interested in women or, or even thinking about women. And there was a very funny incident during this Miami streamer tour. Uh, Nick Fuentes got a, a New York Post write up about it. In fact, so they, uh, they write, a humiliating clip showed Fuentes being approached by Braden Peters, also known as the controversial looks maxing influencer, Clavicular. Clavicular asks Fuentes excitedly, yo, Nick, I'm going to bring some girls over for you. And then Fuentes, looking flustered, put his hand up and immediately begged him not to,

• 16:39Ryan Broderick?

  responding awkwardly, no, I'm good.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 16:46Ryan Broderick?

  And it's like, okay, you know, you can, you can obviously make a million jokes about like Nick Fuentes, his sexuality and, and what it may be. But it also, I think,

• 16:55Ryan Broderick?

  is a fascinating example of how it's kind of clear that Fuentes like didn't think that this would even be something he'd have to deal with.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause he's, he only interacts with men.

• 17:05Ryan Broderick?

  Right. We, we have a tweet here in our, in our research where he, he posted at one point, being a wife guy is still gay, actually. And then Andrew Tate responded to that, writing, this is an objective fact. Anyone who's experienced with women isn't enamored by them. OMG, my OMG wife said, so anyway, I was having a beer and then my wife said, Gay.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  I mean, having a wife, gay.

• 17:29Ryan Broderick?

  Totally.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Having a wife and then acknowledging her.

• 17:32Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Like, speaking of her in a conversation with your boys, gay.

• 17:37Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, totally, totally. There's no, there's no straight way to be married to a woman. But I do want to go back to, I do want to go back to sort of the very beginnings of this because I think it is, I think it is sort of astounding how far we've come from this. Are you familiar with AngryHarry.com? Have you ever heard of that?

• 17:54Speaker 02

  No, uh, no, I'm not actually. I mean, I don't think I am.

• 17:58Ryan Broderick?

  So AngryHarry.com was the first ever recorded men's rights website on the internet. It appeared in the mid 2000s. It was of course written by a British guy. And it is very small, but it's, it kicks around a little bit. There is also a very early YouTube video that, that Grant can pull up for you here, um, which is pretty interesting.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  This is porn music.

• 18:27Ryan Broderick?

  Definitely. So for listeners at home who are, are listening to this, not watching this, the video is very much about like custody law. Like that was a big thing for the early men's rights guys.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  He's got beef with the family court.

• 18:41Ryan Broderick?

  It's a lot of family court stuff. There's also just like a subsection of like British male blogger that is completely obsessed with like losing his children to like some sort of custody battle. It, I think it's like the heart of like British turfdom, like male turfs as well. Like they're all sort of obsessed with it, but it's very different. You know, it's a very different aesthetic than, you know, what we see now. It's a very different tone and I would say it is separate from the pickup artists that are sort of operating at the same time. And then around this same era in 2006, we get MGTOW.com, which stands for men going their own way. Are you familiar with this?

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yes, I am.

• 19:17Ryan Broderick?

  Can you, can you sort of briefly describe the, the, the noxious vibes of men going their own way?

• 19:23Speaker 02

  The whole theme is like extricating yourself from interacting with women, not necessarily like in a totalitarian, like

• 19:33Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  don't have any interaction with women, but it's, it's just like whatever women like or care about. Or wanna do, that's, we want the opposite.

• 19:43Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, it's kinda like-

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Reactionary bullshit thing.

• 19:46Ryan Broderick?

  I think the easiest way to think about it is like, society has been, is controlled by women, and so I'm gonna move out to the woods and die alone out there to get away from it, basically. But here's, here-

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Alright, okay.

• 19:57Ryan Broderick?

  Which is like, but, but that's also just like, the male response to anything, which is like, "Oh, I'm gonna go out into the woods, I'm gonna die alone," 'cause like, that's just like, men fantasize about it. But, here's, here's an archive, uh, here's a piece of, uh, from the archive. So, "I see this question posted with some regularity in the personal section, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven't figured it out. What happened to all the nice guys? The answer is simple: you did. See, if you think back really hard, you might vaguely remember a platonic guy pal who always, oh my god, I know where this is going, uh, who always seemed to wanna spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stopped by your place for a movie when you were lonely, but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed

• 20:42Ryan Broderick?

  and told him about how horribly the other guy that you were fucking treated you." And it goes on and on and on for pages, and then it ends with, "He came to realize that if you wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be. Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. So if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do. One, build a time machine. Two, go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass. Three, take a look at what's right in front of you and grab a hold of it." Um, and I imagine this guy wrote it while wearing Joker face paint. This feels like very Joker to me.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Essentially, this comes down to like, I don't like women who have, who value them their own- Autonomy and and have self esteem because they will expect more of me. Therefore.

• 21:39Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, yes.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  You should lower your standards as much as possible and allow men to mistreat you. It's like it's a self justifying thing. I will say like I've been with my partner for seven years and not only does he have a I'm I'm sorry to say I have his permission to advertise this fact. We've shot content together. Not only does he have one of the things that all these sad dudes probably desperately wish they had, which is a massive penis. He's very attractive sexually and aesthetically and my best friend, one of the nicest human beings I've ever met in my life. But sometimes I'm like, he's also bi and I wonder how much that has to do with it is like being capable of actually admitting like.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  But like, because a lot of these guys, I really think that there's a lot of repressed homoeroticism going on. It's the only like, I don't see how else you could possibly be straight and and truly genuinely hate women so much.

• 22:40Ryan Broderick?

  But what if your partner hated you and acted like it all the time? Wouldn't you like him more? I feel like that's what these guys are telling each other.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  I've I've been in I was in a enough unfortunately, I was like married to a guy who was like very emotionally abusive like over a decade ago. And it was the kind of like gaslighting relationship that I it did take me like I was with him for two and a half years. So it took me some time to realize what was going on and work my way out of it.

• 23:07Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, I think that there is, as you said, like repressed homoeroticism at the heart of a lot of this stuff. But there's also like profound insecurity and just like, like, you know, this, the the anger that sort of builds up with men who are socialized like this. And, you know, when we were talking about like, at what point did these guys start thinking like, we're never going to be around women? There were obviously like the men going their own way who are going to go die out in the woods alone. But that even this angry hairy guy all the way back in the, you know, the. 2000s, he's writing stuff like this. "In my view, traditional marriage is not the long-term solution. Though I suspect that a modified form of it will certainly be very helpful. Marriage, don't do it. Come the divorce, as come it probably will.

• 23:52Ryan Broderick?

  The courts will systematically shear you of your children, your house, and huge amounts of your income for 20 years." That's a little specific, Angry Harry. I feel like you're pulling from somewhere very personal there. And we're going to talk about how this resentment, this like, almost like pre resentment of women, like before they've even done anything, you know, like this, the fact that you're walking through life with the idea that like, women are preying on you in some capacity. How this gets darker and darker in the next decade.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  And that they're all the same.

• 24:19Ryan Broderick?

  And that they're all the same. And we're going to talk about all of that right after a word from our sponsors, BlueChew. I think that's the boner one, right?

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  When you spend enough time around great companies, you notice that the best ones treat trust as a growth strategy, not a box to check. Vanta helps companies build and prove trust from day one. Its Agentic Trust Platform connects compliance, risk, and trust at enterprise scale. Vanta delivers a 526% return on investment over three years and pays for itself in just three months. Learn why over 16,000 of the fastest-growing companies use Vanta at vanta.com.

• 25:28Ryan Broderick?

  Obviously, the 2000s, everything kind of changes in terms of how we're using technology. It's not just like weirdos blogging anymore. We're all online. We're all using dating apps, which I think is sort of like an under discussed dimension here. The sort of like

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:42Ryan Broderick?

  ability to see the sexual dynamics of a large population.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  I also think that dating apps have a pretty large hand in in some men falling into radicalization.

• 25:53Ryan Broderick?

  Say more about that, because I agree. And I feel like it's so under discussed.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  This is based on my observation and anecdotally conversations that I've had with friends of mine who are straight men who use dating apps. Dating apps are, I think, the earliest versions of them. Like, you know, I really liked OkCupid when I was like in college. It was, I liked it because there was all these personality tests and it was fun. You could like make your results public and then go see other people who had like similar results to you. So it was like kind of fun trying to like find people that I might vibe with that way. But they're so gamified now. It is literally just a way of like getting, getting money from people. And most of the people who are paying for like the subscription stuff and like the,

• 26:41Speaker 02

  what's the like $500 one that Tinder also launched?

• 26:45Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, there's a mega premium tier now. Right?

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like this is predatory on toward men because they know that dating app companies have all the information that they can see. Like, first of all, most of the user base is overwhelmingly men. There's always far less women on the apps than there are men. The women that are on the apps are regularly experiencing abuse from like dudes who just have no tact. And it's like you have these two like opposing groups where the women are like, I'm Like, I don't want to reach out to you like I I'm trying to minimize the amount of abuse I experienced on this app while like genuinely maybe looking for the things I'm looking for, whether that's just hookups or hookups from a safe, cool guy that you

• 27:32Speaker 02

  can talk to, or actually relationship material. I just feel like for a lot of men, it ends up regardless of what they're looking for, it ends up being this like incredibly frustrating experience of reaching out to 300 people a week and most of the time never getting a single message back. And if that's what you're experiencing and you're also like, I'm paying $500 a month to Tinder for this. Yeah, it's totally, it's definitely like radicalizing some guys.

• 27:58Ryan Broderick?

  And you can see like a direct rise in gender based violence with the sort of advent of both dating apps and I think visual social media. I think that there is like a component of like seeing the people who don't want you in theory, like that is that and sort of algorithmically being mumbered with this stuff. And it's not to take agency away from these guys, but just for an example, so the kind of like dorky like go die in the woods group men going their own way. It gets really dark around 2011 when Thomas Ball kills himself. He lights himself on fire in front of a New Hampshire courthouse to protest the family court system. When that happens, another one of these guys, Paul Elam, calls

• 28:42Ryan Broderick?

  for like a revolution, basically saying that like they should burn legislature buildings and lampposts and hang corpses from them. And he creates a doxing website called registerher.com, which is, you know, just fills up with just like random women that these guys are mad at. Katherine Heigl gets swept into like the incel frenzy at one point when she makes a joke on Funny or Die that like men should be neutered. And this is all kind of building towards Elliot Rogers, the incel mass shooter. And as this is happening, we're getting more and more spaces for these guys to hang out. So you're getting a voice for men, then you also have Roush V, which I think was Return of Kings was his.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yes. Very well remember that.

• 29:26Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I'm so mad. I remember the name of his stupid blog. Twitter, 4chan, Reddit, they're all filling up. You're getting the red pill theory stuff. And then GQ goes to the first Voice for Men conference in 2015. And they write at the time, "The issues were as varied as the manosphere. Fathers' rights, suicide, and circumcision. And also, false accusations of rape. Male victims of rape and unfaithful wives. Cuckoo for cocoa penis puffs," quote as one speaker would put it.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  What?

• 29:58Ryan Broderick?

  I think that's like, that's like that whole idea that like, your wife will leave you for a black guy, which is like very common.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  I was gonna say that that's, that's a, that's a racism thing. Okay, God.

• 30:06Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that's a racism thing.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 30:08Ryan Broderick?

  Um, and then there's another, there's another interesting.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Would love to see that man's top porn search terms.

• 30:13Ryan Broderick?

  We know what it is. We know what it is. Like, it's all psychosexual. It's all, all this stuff is, is an admission. So from the GQ piece, it reads first, uh, so it's talking about like one of the men there and his origin story. First, he says his wife cheated on him. Then she wanted him to know it. She'd laugh at me. His low point, lying on the floor in a fetal curl while she stood over him, mocking him. He says she had a butcher knife in her hand. She denies this, all of it.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  That is just a guy with a cock fetish.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. It sounds like a fantasy, actually.

• 30:45Ryan Broderick?

  I've thought a lot about this over the years, cause like, you know, you read enough of this stuff. And at least for me, like, I'm always trying to be like, okay, like, how is this still happening? And I do think that there is like this interesting pipeline where like, a lot of men are raised to only date women based on looks. And they don't really care about women as human beings. And they're told like over and over again, they shouldn't care about women as human beings.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:06Ryan Broderick?

  I would imagine probably the, a same or slightly smaller percentage of men who are with abusive partners that women are with, right? Uh, it's probably, I mean, I don't know the, the details here. But I do think that like, when you're going after a potential romantic partner and you don't care anything about them, other than how they look and how other men would perceive you for having them as your partner, you end up in really toxic relationships that you then find even deeper toxic communities to, to talk about these with. So you end up in these conferences where these men are like, oh yeah, like my BPD wife like tried to kill me with a butcher knife. And it's like, you don't like your wife, you never liked your wife. You just started dating her to impress guys you know. And now, yeah, she's probably gonna try to kill you. It is a self fulfilling prophecy, I would say.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Probably incompetence in multiple areas like, like, like, like, I feel like a lot of the guys who fall into this mindset, this horrible philosophy are also like somewhat emotionally stunted.

• 32:05Ryan Broderick?

  And of course, this sort of rhetoric allows for even more unsavory ideologies to sort of take root. And in fact, at this conference that this GQ reporter went to, one person said, I would rather err on the side of 12 year olds having sex than on the side of ruining men's lives when asked about, of course, age of consent laws.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  What?

• 32:31Ryan Broderick?

  It becomes this whole idea of like repercussions for the like the basest impulses I have as a man. Like, that's what these guys really want.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:43Ryan Broderick?

  But one thing I wanted to ask you specifically about, because I think it's another piece of this that is not talked about very often is, have you noticed a sort of rise in what I would call like sexual mercantilism? Like the idea that like women are a resource that have to be hoarded? The sort of like post GameStop pump idea of like, there's like a sexual economics at play that like you have to deal with. Because I see these guys talk about something like that all the time, and I've never seen anything really good about it. Written about it or discussed about it.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Well, okay, so I do think that the framework of patriarchy just sort of inherently does that anyway. Like, it just is that. So, I mean, I suppose there's, there's one way to talk about it where I'm like, I guess these guys are, they're perceiving that. They're perceiving that that is already existent within this structure. They're just like really being really on the nose about it. I think a lot of like, you know, social progress that has been made in the last like couple hundred years has made it pretty uncouth to actually express misogynist opinions in that pointed of a way. But just like, you know, overt racism.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Has made such a comeback overt misogyny is very popular now as well. It's like, I also think about the, the podcast bros, you know, like fresh and fit podcasts and the whatever podcasts and, and those things where it's like their whole shtick is to invite on a woman who does only fans as her job and then just like, poke every imaginable button and like disrespect her in every imaginable way and

• 34:28Ryan Broderick?

  Yes.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  And dehumanize her.

• 34:31Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, just to be clear, you're talking about the whatever podcast, uh, right?

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:35Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, where they just like, they just like shout at only fans models for two hours and

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:39Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that's, I, yeah. I try to imagine the kind of person that watches that and like, I don't, I think you just have to sort of like dig a hole and like put them in it. Like, I don't think they can be in society anymore.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  I, I know. Well, and it's funny that the whole thing with like attacking the, the sex workers on like with that, those podcast guys, a big part of the criticism is like, oh, well, you, you're just materialistic, like you're a gold digger, blah, blah, blah. And, and I'm like, what?

• 35:06Ryan Broderick?

  They're, they're parasites. They're making a living, making content creation off of people that are making content that people actually enjoy.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  She's making all of her money. This is, she's, she's making money fair and square. Like,

• 35:21Ryan Broderick?

  Also like

• 35:21Speaker 02

  You're selling, you're making content. It's like not an easy job to do only fans full time. Working really hard, making a lot of content and building a fan base to market it to. And then those people simply buying the content that you're selling to them. Like that is not what a gold digger is.

• 35:36Ryan Broderick?

  Also, these guys, these guys are a part of the ecosystem. Like none of these women would come on to get shouted at if they couldn't get some kind of following from it. And these guys have to know that that's what they're promising them. So it's like,

• 35:48Speaker 02

  They do.

• 35:48Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So the, the whole thing is broken, but

• 35:51Speaker 02

  It's kind of just rage bait.

• 35:53Ryan Broderick?

  Yes.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  I've actually heard multiple women who have gone on the whatever podcast say that like the the main guy, I don't know his name, that he's like, not even really, doesn't even really believe in any of this just stuff.

• 36:03Ryan Broderick?

  Of course not.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  It's like is an empty person morally and he knows that the rage bait will like help the women who go on the podcast get more subscribers because that is the viewer base for that podcast is men who also pay for a lot of OnlyFans subscriptions.

• 36:19Ryan Broderick?

  Yes.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Weirdly enough, and then it's crazy to me.

• 36:24Ryan Broderick?

  Like, we've talked about this in previous episodes, but like, I think the rise of the term simp is so telling, where it's like, it is a term specifically for the men who like, hate themselves for having parasocial relationships with women online. And it came about right as women both who are streaming and also on tube sites as verified influencers and also on OnlyFans sites and like, you know, competitors. It's a, it's a derogatory term for a man who likes a woman who is benefiting from the online attention of men. Like, and it is, and is a self hatred thing. And right before we go to our next break, I wanted to read this last chunk from, from Voice for Men, because I think it is a useful

• 37:08Ryan Broderick?

  sort of illustration of how we're slowly over time watching these guys drop any pretext that they're going to meet women through this ideology. So, Voice for Men writes this in the mid 2000s, they write, "Romantic love is a narrative of male sacrifice in exchange for sex and to some degree approval. Romantic love takes that temporary insanity and turns it into a mandate. On its face, it's a perfect storm of sexual selection, male sacrifice and male disposability, which is really just three different ways of saying gynocentrism", which is like, gynical, it's, it's like.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:42Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. And we're going to talk about how Andrew Tate takes a hold of that whole ideology right after a word from our sponsors, Hims. I think they also sell a boner pill, right?

• 37:54Speaker 02

  I think they do. Yeah, they sell minoxidil too for when your hair starts thinning.

• 38:00Ryan Broderick?

  Nothing wrong with that. That's just gender affirming care as far as as far as.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  It is gender affirming care. Like, I take minoxidil.

• 38:05Ryan Broderick?

  It's great. I take it too. I have a guy in Chinatown that gives me a really strong dose of it and it keeps me looking 25 years old, which is.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  It's great.

• 38:14Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, no, I'll sell minoxidil. I think it's great.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And boner pills, because boners are also great.

• 38:20Ryan Broderick?

  I'll take, I'll take them all on stream. Let's see what happens.

• 38:22Speaker 03

  I mean, what do we need to do to get a creatine sponsor?

• 38:26Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, yeah. Grant wants a creatine promotion. He wants those watery creatine muscles.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Do it. You want to be as bloated as possible. 10mg of creatine a day. Sorry, okay.

• 38:36Ryan Broderick?

  He wants to be super bloated.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 39:08Speaker 04

  When you spend enough time around great companies, you notice that the best ones treat trust as a growth strategy, not a box to check. Vanta helps companies build and prove trust from day one. Its Agentic Trust Platform connects compliance, risk, and trust at enterprise scale. Vanta delivers a 526% return on investment over three years and pays for itself in just three months. Learn why over 16,000 of the fastest-growing companies use Vanta at vanta.com.

• 39:40Ryan Broderick?

  When did you first learn about Andrew Tate?

• 39:43Speaker 02

  I guess in like, probably like 2018 or 2019, when, just because I used to be really active on Twitter.

• 39:51Ryan Broderick?

  So I it's one of those things where I kick myself because I had all these screenshots and I never did anything with them. But I remember I would it would have been 2019. I was doing an investigation into the Hungarian far-right movement.

• 40:07Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 40:08Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, cause at the time I was covering sort of like far-right radicalization around the world. And so I was like, looking into Viktor Orban's kind of deal. And I discovered like, a bunch of these old pick-up artists that I had been following in years past, were suddenly popping up in Hungary. And they were popping up at like, basically like, cigar clubs and like poker clubs and stuff. And I came across this account on Instagram called Cobra Tate. And I was like, what the fuck is Cobra Tate? And then I spent like, probably an entire afternoon, just like, screenshotting how him and his brother were popping up at all of these like, far-right epicenters around Europe. And I couldn't figure out like, who they were, why they were there, why they were networking with like, established

• 40:50Ryan Broderick?

  pick-up artists and men's rights activists. I never did anything with the story and I always kind of kick myself. But we now know that he was building what he would eventually call Hustler University, which was a was an alleged human trafficking operation and also pyramid scheme, which also operated kind of as a fan club. And so the the the idea was actually very evil and very clever, which was, you would pay him money to share his videos on TikTok. He would basically earn points in his pyramid scheme by paying for the privilege to share his content online. And it kind of unlocked like, an algorithmic tidal wave of Andrew Tate content around 2019, 2020. And then I think that got supercharged.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  It is unfortunately, pretty genius. It's like a growth strategy.

• 41:37Ryan Broderick?

  I think we should start Panic University Grant. I think that'd be really cool. You can share our clips and only for $20 a month, we'll, we'll give you our clips to share.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  What would we teach?

• 41:48Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, how to be better men, of course, to take creatine, work out, watch anime.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  How to make eye contact?

• 41:55Ryan Broderick?

  Well, that I can't, that I cannot do. I cannot, I can't even make eye contact through a zoom screen. I can't even do that. So.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  How to ask yourself questions like, if I was this woman, what would I be feeling in this moment?

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Basic empathy.

• 42:07Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So, I mean, were you surprised when you learned of Andrew Tate's existence? Like, or was this?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:13Ryan Broderick?

  Like, oh, of course this guy exists.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  No, I was like, yeah, of course this guy exists 100%. I started working in the adult industry in 2012. And in the porn industry, someone like Andrew Tate, we would call a, well, he's a little, he got a little too advanced with his whole like scam, um, like, you know, after building it up, but like, maybe when he was like just starting out with Hustler University, he was at a status where, uh, we would have described him as a suitcase pimp.

• 42:43Ryan Broderick?

  Suitcase pimp? What is a suitcase pimp?

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, it's, it's been around for a while. I don't know who actually originated it, but when you're a female talent in the porn industry, you pretty much provide all your own wardrobe. So like a studio hires you for a scene.

• 42:57Ryan Broderick?

  Okay.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  And you go to set with a suitcase. And so a suitcase pimp would be like this, this dude, this like shitty, like manipulative dude who would usually be dating a model. He would also like identify himself as her manager, her, sometimes her agent, whatever. And he's pretty much just latch, like a leech sucking off her resources.

• 43:20Ryan Broderick?

  I see.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  But acting like he's actually providing her some kind of service in exchange when he's really not. He's just a fucking leech. Um, but yeah, suitcase pimp, because he'd always be dropping this girl off on set.

• 43:31Ryan Broderick?

  Okay. That makes sense.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  Have you seen more suitcase pimps since Andrew Tate?

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Well, so because the porn world has actually gotten so like way better, like it's, it's actually easier than ever to identify the suitcase pimp type now because we have, because individual performers have more power than ever to control their own careers, their own income, and that, that power we have now specifically because of platforms like OnlyFans that. Let us just sell our content directly to fans. Like, most people in the porn industry don't make the majority of their business revenue on shooting for studios. And it was the studio and like the talent agency system that actually was more enabling men to be leeches in that way.

• 44:17Ryan Broderick?

  Wait, wait. Based on what you just said, which I think is a really important dimension to this. What do you make of this sort of fact that, right as women were basically being able to create their own businesses and their, and their own, you know, mini media empires through these tools, something shifted in the manosphere, almost as sort of like an economic revolt against it. This idea that like, wait a minute, like, you guys shouldn't be enjoying this. Like, you guys shouldn't be like, happy and healthy and doing things on your own terms. That's not allowed. Like, it feels very much, in the same way that like, it's very much based on the rise of dating apps and visual social media, it also feels very connected to that as well.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  It definitely is. And I mean, it's also totally not a coincidence that the, the new like wave of anti porn legislation and anti porn sentiment has risen at, literally, bar for bar, like at the same pace as very visibly successful women doing sex work, being OnlyFans models, et cetera. Even though, if you, like, all of us keep saying, no, the potential for exploitation was far greater 10 years ago. It's very ironic that a lot of the anti porn stuff now is like, resting in this argument that like, we're being, like, sex workers are being exploited, so we have to, you know, remove the industry. Like, it's negative for all these reasons.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  And it's like, no one was trying to argue that when it was very definitively more exploitative back before. We had the ability to make our own money and be much more in control of that. So no, there's no question in my mind that the backlash really, when it comes to specifically sex workers and, and women online making their own money, like that that backlash really does rest on like, it's like jealousy. It's jealousy over

• 46:12Ryan Broderick?

  Hundred percent.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Over like, oh, I think that this girl's hot and she's an OF creator and now I'm mad because she's hot. She'll like, I, she's unattainable to me and I'm mad about that. And I'm doubly mad because she's making money from a bunch of men who she's also unattainable to. I'm not saying that that's the case because plenty of only like successful women and OnlyFans like have stable, loving relationships with men who don't look like a clavicular, like are just like normal fucking dudes. But I'm saying that that's the thought process of men like this when they, you know, get angry about women.

• 46:57Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that I mean, that is basically what he is doing though. He is like, he is running, he is allegedly running a very far reaching international, uh, human trafficking and cam site operation. And he is spinning that to be an entrepreneurial pursuit and teaching other men how to, how to do this. At the same time, Nick Fuentes is getting his start as a streamer. Our researcher, Adam, described the Nick Fuentes idea as, "In the wake of Trump's first election, edgy online people are forced to find something more offensive than Pepe the Frog and they move on to a new obese cartoon frog named the Greifer."

• 47:37Ryan Broderick?

  And I think the rise of these two pillars of the online male community are, are, are very telling. So you have this one who is like total nihilist, neat, you know, who never goes outside. And then you have this, you know, uber mensch kind of guy and they're both. Effectively, just like live streamers who are exploiting people.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 48:01Ryan Broderick?

  So Mother Jones writes about him right before, right around the pandemic, saying, eventually he'll keep up this facade even when he moves to a larger house and production studio is showing how crucial it is to his image, which is true. He is still looking like he's in his basement, but he is obviously making millions. And we tried to, okay, so for, to, to go back to your thesis, uh, that all these guys, um, have made being straight gay. We tried to find the earliest instance of Nick Fuentes coming out against heterosexual sex, which, uh, appeared in 2022, according to the Star Observer, who writes, "Earlier this month, America First treasurer Jaden McNeil found a girlfriend, moved out of Fuentes'

• 48:43Ryan Broderick?

  basement lair, and denounced the group as a cult. This seemed to infuriate Fuentes and send him off the rails. Fuentes, some people call me gay because I've never had a girlfriend. I think if anything, it makes me less gay. If anything, it makes me not gay."

• 48:58Ryan Broderick?

  If we're really being honest, never having a girlfriend, never having sex with a woman really makes you more heterosexual because honestly, dating women is gay. Men having sex with women is gay and having sex with men is gay and it's really all gay. The only really straight heterosexual position is actually incel. What's gayer than being like, "I like cuddles, I need kisses." Yeah.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Well, you know, that really does speak for itself, doesn't it?

• 49:23Ryan Broderick?

  And that same year, Andrew Tate gets written about and, and, and in this piece, it reads, "He says he likes young women that he can control and make an imprint on. Several of the women in his videos are branded with the tattoos Tate's Girl or Tate's Property." And then he's quoted as saying, "I fuck women so I can get what I actually want, which is not them. They are means to an end," he explains in one of his videos. So it's like both of these guys have taken this to its logical endpoint, which is that this, there's no straight way to be around women and the only way you can be straight is by in non-sexual partnerships with men. And these guys are now responsible for like shaping the young minds of, of, of boys across the country. So.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:08Ryan Broderick?

  What do we do? What do we do with that?

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Uh, well, God, we need to fix the education system.

• 50:15Ryan Broderick?

  I agree.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  That's a big one. That's a real big piece of it.

• 50:20Ryan Broderick?

  I genuinely feel kind of like. Sad at the videos of Clivicular. I think he's 20, if not, maybe 21.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  He's doing meth.

• 50:30Ryan Broderick?

  He's doing meth and ketamine.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  He proudly admits to doing meth to hollow out his cheekbones.

• 50:37Ryan Broderick?

  I mean, if that's the looks maxing meta right now, like I'll start doing meth too. But like, the thing is, like, I feel so bad for him because like, he's clearly, like, if this was happening in a foreign country, we would be like, oh, that kid was groomed by ISIS. Like, that kid was groomed by insert terrorist organization. And I feel really sad watching his videos. Like, there's a video that came out, I think, a couple of days ago where his dad texts him while on stream, and he's like, "You're a drug addict and you embarrassed me." And he looks like he's about to cry. And then he sort of goes into some kind of trance and talks about why mugging is important. And it's like, that's so sad. The Andrew Tates, the Nick Fuentes's of the world have shaped this guy's life to the point where he is now just like,

• 51:20Ryan Broderick?

  an insane meth addict, like, shooting drugs into his penis. Like, the whole thing's crazy.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, no, it's really tragic. Genuinely, I don't know how many people's, like, parent, like, someone like Clivicular, who's like currently 20. So, I mean, how old do we think his, like, parents are? Part of me, I, when I see, like, the really hardcore, like, misogynist incel, like, Gen Z guys, I, part of me wonders, like, how old are your parents? Like, what, what kind of monitoring of your, like,

• 51:54Speaker 02

  internet usage activity were you exposed to growing up, if at all? I'm a little bit hypocritical in even saying that, because like, I was a very, my parents are boomers. I was raised as a very, very free-range kid. And also, I had internet access. Like, I had my first computer with internet access in my bedroom when I was nine years old, which was like, far earlier than most anyone else I knew. This was the case for me because my dad was, is a computer nerd. He was a programmer. And he wanted us to, like, learn those skills really early. I was like, doing nefarious shit with my internet access as a prepubescent child on the internet. And like, was I exposed to things that were potentially dangerous? Blah, blah, blah. Absolutely, for sure.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  But it was different back then. I don't know that I would have been capable of even finding a community as toxic as, like, these ones that exist now. And I just don't know that a lot of like people who are raising children currently are even aware of the things that their that their kids can get up to. I try to tell my own mom because she's super offline.

• 53:02Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  And I have conversations with her where I'm like, yeah, are you aware that like for like an 18, 19 year old guy right now? It is like a pretty kind of almost typical opinion for them to be like essentially politically a Nazi. To think that women should lose the right to vote.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  And all these other things that are like, you know, we think of as incredibly backwards and it's somehow been normalized. And it's literally just because of like algorithm based stuff. The alt right incel like radicalization pipeline that's just been perfectly set up

• 53:37Speaker 02

  for kids to fall into from a young age. And it's like, there's so much shared responsibility across different like aspects of our culture.

• 53:46Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. I mean, like on one hand.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:49Ryan Broderick?

  Clivicular did discover that Jester maxing is the new meta at the club, but he has also ruined his life and fried his brain.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:57Ryan Broderick?

  And I also wonder like, you know, back to this question of like, what can you do? Which is a question that like Grant and I will inevitably get in the form of emails for this episode because we always do when we talk about this stuff. You can raise kids to be media literate and you yourself can become media literate and understand this stuff and sort of recognize, you know, these archetypes that as we've proven on today's episode have been around for 20 years. It is not hard to sort of point out an incel or point out a men's rights guy. They all, they've been talking the same way for two decades. But it is also like, how do you, especially right now, shelter a young person? Protect a young person from probably the darkest, like.

• 54:40Ryan Broderick?

  Era of like American society post civil rights movement at this point like it is it is they are surround it is the water that these kids are swimming in as you said like the median Gen Z boy is a neo-Nazi and I don't really know how you fix that part of it that's when the personal and the societal start to sort of bump into each other.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I mean also just panic in general about teenagers having access to social media and and like smartphones.

• 55:07Ryan Broderick?

  No.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  That is a moral panic.

• 55:10Ryan Broderick?

  It is a moral panic. I agree.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I would not ever suggest that like age verification mandatory age verification for everyone, you know, like banning cell phones bubble. I don't think any of that stuff is a solution.

• 55:22Ryan Broderick?

  No, I mean, all of this stuff happened on TikTok, one of the most censorious social platforms that's ever existed.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  It's hard for me to imagine that someone could grow up to be a clavicular had they been taught like knowingly, meaningfully taught empathy from a young age. But yeah, I kinda I kinda blame a lot of parents. I really do. Partly, I say that because I grew up going to my family like if I can have a small tangent here.

• 55:55Ryan Broderick?

  Sure.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Part of why I'm so critical of culture and and left-leaning politically, I really think rests in the fact that I experienced a very like eye-opening kind of culture shock when I was 12 years old because I grew up in Minneapolis, going to public schools, living in the city and having a pretty diverse experience as a kid. And that's what was normal to me. And my family moved to a very like conservative white suburb of Fort Worth, Texas, right before I started middle school. And that's where I lived and went to school until I finished high school. And for me, this drastic change in like not just culturally like from the north to the south, but in terms of like religious values being imposed on children and stuff.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  I immediately met a bunch of children, fellow 12-year-olds that and I had I generally like I'm not trying to like look at it with rose-colored glasses, but like, you know, growing up in Minneapolis when I was living there. It was not a thing that I heard kids telling other kids like prepubescent times. So there wasn't a whole lot of like discussion of anything related to sex necessarily going on at that time, but I didn't hear like a whole lot of like gendered insults. I didn't observe overt racism all the time at school, but it was just like such a stark contrast and that area has only continued to get more. Now there's like a literal like neo-Nazi group that like infiltrated all the PTA at the public schools in that part of Texas, the Patriot Front.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  And this was like the subject of an NBC News podcast years ago called South Lake, which is one of the neighboring suburbs where I grew up. Like literally they've been like the PTA, the, the school boards and shit have been like overtaken by like neo-Nazis. It's crazy. And, and those people are raising kids who are a school age right now. So I'm like, I really think a lot of the responsibility rests on parents and you can't say that since like so many young Gen Z men are like in these radicalization holes. I'm not saying that the parents are all training young men to be this way, but I think it's ignorance combined with boys having access to this information online, the algorithmic

• 58:09Speaker 02

  bias pushing them very intentionally into the manosphere. And then I guess like parents not having a close enough tab on what their kids are doing.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Because if you were, if you were having conversations where you're like valuing empathy and understanding other people's experiences, like it'd be, it'd be really hard to not notice that your kids falling into that and to like, want to like help them out of it at some point. So it's like, to get to the point of a clavicular, I think that it requires like a combination of a lot of different kinds of like enabling and ignorance.

• 58:43Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I think the first step is to sit your child down. And if they're talking like someone like clavicular, you just have to look them in the eye and start making fun of them. You talk like you're weird. Stop being weird. That's the first step, you know, and then yeah, if you're, if your, if your child tries to mog you, you have to sit them down and you have to make fun of them.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Like, who told you that that was cool? That's

• 59:09Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  That's actually, no.

• 59:12Ryan Broderick?

  You don't have to, you don't have to hurt them. You don't have to be mean to them. You just have to look them right in the eye and very simply say, you're talking like a weird freak. And then, and that's, and you know,

• 59:21Speaker 02

  And that's how you make sure you don't raise a bully.

• 59:23Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, like I, yeah, I, I, you know, every once in a while, growing up, my dad would say, I don't understand what you're talking about. And it seems really weird. And then I would think like, am I being weird? And sometimes I was. So, you know, not a big fix, but it's a step.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:39Ryan Broderick?

  I want, I want to thank you for coming on the show. This was great. This was a wonderful conversation. If people want to follow you on the internet, where can they do that? Okay. So that's usually what I ask our guests. If people want to follow you in a safer work capacity on the internet, where can they do that? And if you want to follow you in a not safer work capacity, where can I do that? I feel like that would be easier to split them in half.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  To be honest, all of my links are at siridahl.com, S I R I D A H L dot com.

• 1:00:04Ryan Broderick?

  Perfect.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  There's, that goes to both safe work and not safe for work. My primary platforms that are safe for work are Blue Sky, which is the one I recommend the most for people who are interested in what I have to say in that regard. And then secondarily, like Instagram, because I still post on there, but it's of course a little more like censorious with as far as free speech goes.

• 1:00:26Ryan Broderick?

  I think I've turned a corner on Blue Sky. I still think everyone on there is annoying, but I am kind of liking my time more than I used to on there. It's definitely better than X these days.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  People are a little annoying there. I've been on there for a while now and cultivated my, my feed and, and all that to where it's like, the annoying folks are more minimized, but.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  It's

• 1:00:46Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, you have to.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  It's fairly close at this point to what the like golden days of Twitter used to feel like.

• 1:00:52Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  So I do appreciate that.

• 1:00:53Ryan Broderick?

  It's almost there. Panic World is a production of Courier. It is written and produced by Grant Irving and hosted by me, Ryan Broderick. Josh Fialsted is our production coordinator and our amazing researcher is Adam Bumis. From Courier is Shane Verkest, who edits our video episodes along with our producer, Kevin Maroney, and National Managing Director and Executive Producer Kevin Dreyfus. R.C. DeMezzo is their VP of Brand and Social. Charlotte Robinson is their Deputy Director of Brand and Social. Mary Ann Couga is their Director of Marketing. YouTube and Podcast Growth Marketer Samantha Hallows. And Tracy Kaplan is the Senior Vice President of Sales and Distribution. If you want to sponsor the show

• 1:01:34Ryan Broderick?

  or give us products to sell, she's the one to talk to. You can email her at [email protected]. Be sure to check out the Panic World YouTube channel, which you can find at youtube.com/AtPanicWorldPod. And please, give us some nice ratings on podcast apps and leave a funny review. Lastly, here's my advice for you. Chill out and touch grass while you still can.

• 1:01:59Speaker 05

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