Pod Insights Pablo Torre Finds Out The Sporting Class: How to Handle a Gambling Scandal About this episode Why would millionaires risk it all for a bet? How do you cheer up a player facing down the feds? Will the WNBA's civil war ever end? And who really killed the Montreal Expos? John Skipper and David Samson reunite at a knock-down, drag-out moment for sports business. Plus: Operation Relocation, J. J. Putz and T-shirt cannon fever.
• Previously on PTFO: What You Can't Control, with David Samson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqu8S7ULjj8
• Subscribe to "Nothing Personal with David Samson" https://www.youtube.com/@npds
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Pablo Torre? Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.
0:06 Speaker 01 What kind of idiot would sign a deal that guarantees lack of profitability? You literally have to be out of your mind.
0:17 Pablo Torre? Right after this ad.
0:21 Speaker 02 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
0:27 Speaker 03 Love the crown molding.
0:29 Speaker 02 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
0:32 Speaker 03 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.
0:36 Speaker 02 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
0:40 Speaker 03 No FiOS? Yeah, no thank you.
0:43 Speaker 02 Don't you wanna see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
0:46 Speaker 04 Get Verizon FiOS because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.
0:50 Speaker 05 I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.
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2:31 Speaker 06 I'm thinking about making a prop bed on Rozier. What do you think?
2:36 Speaker 01 What, the under?
2:36 Speaker 06 I've been out of touch. I've been out of touch.
2:38 Pablo Torre? There's a ton in here. I want to clarify that what John is alluding to is a thing that I am still investigating journalistically. And so we have another thing coming out, TBD. But I am so glad to have you both at this table. People have been asking, where is the sporting class? I mean, the answer is that none of us are blaming David for having a life that we explained in the last episode that Dave and I did together. And I encourage you to go and watch and like and subscribe and think and feel. What we should know is that if you're not watching YouTube right now, what John and I are sitting next to is one of the great beards in sports media.
3:16 Speaker 01 I still have not shaved since September 12th. And it is true that my daughter plays with it pretty much anytime I'm with her. She, I can't tell if she likes the color of it because there's some white in the chin, which is, she may not be accustomed to, or if she just likes the texture of it.
3:32 Speaker 06 I don't know. I noticed that most men who grow beards ultimately end up doing this a lot. Do you find that?
3:39 Speaker 01 I don't like touching my face because I know my fingers are greasy, so I don't want ever to do it. And, and I let her do it because I do, but I do make her sanitize first.
3:49 Pablo Torre? Oh, no.
3:50 Speaker 06 That is, that is very Samsonian.
3:54 Speaker 01 It's critical to me. Listen, I will do a lot of things to help her, but I will not have greasy fingers on my finger. God, cut that out. That's horrible.
4:04 Pablo Torre? We're gonna, we're gonna have to keep it because in the movie of your life, which I think about every day as your friend, I sometimes forget to include the Samsonian features in which as the soaring tinkling piano music is building, David Samson is asking for the Purell.
4:22 Speaker 01 There's a whole machine now where she is.
4:25 Speaker 06 I would say you wear it pretty well.
4:27 Speaker 01 Thank you.
4:28 Pablo Torre? It's a good look.
4:28 Speaker 06 Yeah.
4:29 Speaker 01 It's, uh, it's fine. I'd rather not have it, but I'll keep it as long as I need to. How about that?
4:34 Pablo Torre? It's, it's the perspective that applies to your beard. It's the perspective that applies to, I think, a lot of people who are running the NBA right now about certain characters. We'll keep this for as long as we need to. What do we gotta do here? And I wanna get into that. Some of that, because there is a conversation, a big picture conversation around the psychology of people with money and how they get embroiled in such things. There's the question of what it's like when you're running a sports team and one of your players gets caught up in a gambling scandal. And raise your hand if that applies to you at this table.
5:18 Pablo Torre? Are you raising your hand to both volunteer and, and, and testify?
5:22 Speaker 01 No, it is true that gambling's always been a thing, even before it was legal. There's a rule in baseball that we had to read to the players. And we would have an assistant general manager do it because it would be his or her or their, but it was always his, uh, opportunity to talk in front of the players. And you did it on the day before opening day every single year. You read start to finish the rule prohibiting gambling. And baseball's very clear. It's, this is post Pete Rose. Very clear. You cannot gamble on baseball. You can't gamble on anything. Period.
6:01 Speaker 06 So no other sport, no?
6:03 Speaker 01 You are not allowed. I never went into a sports book.
6:06 Speaker 06 And that pretty much solved the problem.
6:08 Speaker 01 It solved nothing, but we had to sit there and we would have to listen to the rule being read. It's not a three sentence rule, by the way, in baseball, the rule prohibiting gambling. It's a very long rule. And then what changed with the CBA? We had to do it in Spanish also. So it had to be read once in English, once in Spanish. And I remember having Ichiro on the team and wondering, wait, do we have to do this in Japanese?
6:34 Pablo Torre? Eight Men Out didn't have the scene with the with the with the subtitles.
6:38 Speaker 01 It's a real scene.
6:39 Pablo Torre? At the bottom, of course, of course. By the way, like to speak to the question of what are you allowed to do in the NBA and to very briefly speed run through some of this, we're talking about, I mean, the Department of Justice, the Director of the FBI, the Commissioner of the NYPD, the Eastern District of New York showing up last week at a press conference that has everything but the literal dogs and ponies. But there are the exhibits. There are the details, the two parallel indictments, one being Operation Royal Flush, the other being Operation Nothing But Net? Is that what they called it?
7:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I just want to say one quick thing on that, John. The dog and pony, people are talking a lot about that. And without making this too political, I will tell you that when you are in the prosecutor's office, it doesn't matter what the agenda is of the FBI or of Trump or of anybody. You don't want to lose a case, number one. You don't want to bring in an indictment that will not win. So if this happened, which it did, because they were willing to, you heard what Patel said early on, he thanked, he thanked the prosecutors. Because guess what? Without the prosecutors, there's no press conference. It doesn't matter what Trump wanted. You cannot have the press conference.
8:00 Pablo Torre? And and Cash Patel, the Director of the FBI, who Dave was referring to, this was inherited from the Biden administration. This is years in the making.
8:09 Speaker 01 But people made it so political. And to me, it's really not. But everybody made it political.
8:14 Speaker 06 I didn't see anybody make it political. I was happy to see the FBI is engaged in trying to prosecute some people who aren't on the enemies list. At least I don't think Rozier and Chauncey Billups were on the enemies list.
8:29 Speaker 01 They probably were.
8:30 Speaker 06 They are now.
8:31 Speaker 01 They are now.
8:32 Pablo Torre? We, we continue to investigate.
8:35 Speaker 06 When will they be eligible for a pardon?
8:36 Speaker 01 He's making a McCarthy joke right now.
8:38 Pablo Torre? Oh, no, no, no. But by the way, like, something that I can point out here is that
8:42 Speaker 01 I didn't think he got it.
8:43 Pablo Torre? What, what, what happens when you are being indicted, arrested by the FBI in one of these classic 6 a.m. knocks on the door?
8:52 Speaker 01 The team hotel? I love that.
8:54 Pablo Torre? Yeah, Rozier in Orlando. He's playing for the Miami Heat.
8:57 Speaker 01 They played the Magic the night before. They stayed overnight because they had a game two days later. So what you do is, in baseball, you get the hell out of there and you'd be on the plane. In basketball, you spend the night in that city where you played. And so they found out where the team hotel was, not that difficult. And they come in and they go to the front desk like it's a whole McGilla. And that's how, they literally can go up to the front desk and get in the room.
9:21 Speaker 06 Did Rozier play that, in that game?
9:23 Speaker 01 He did not. They're saying it was coach's decision.
9:25 Speaker 06 Was that a coach's decision?
9:26 Speaker 01 Okay.
9:28 Speaker 06 FBI decision.
9:29 Pablo Torre? The question of what anybody knew and how you react to it is at the heart of this whole story, by the way. It's the thing that I continue to look into. But I say all of this to say that, yes, Chauncey Billups, Hall of Fame inductee, head coach of the Portland Trail Blazers, got arrested in Oregon. And he is somebody who's been accused of not only being a big central figure in Operation Royal Flush, in which there are sophisticated cheating technologies around private poker games, in which the athletes, the pro athletes like Chauncey Billups, were these whales to attract experts at poker who then didn't realize, oh, no, what I thought was an easy target ended up being something that I lost a lot of money to.
10:12 Speaker 01 Do you think these people saw rounders? Sure. I don't know if any of you saw Molly's game, but you probably hate like-
10:20 Pablo Torre? A rich, a rich history of such dynamics.
10:22 Speaker 06 It's an ironic name for a investigation into cheating, because if you have a royal flush, you don't need to cheat.
10:29 Speaker 01 Because you automatically win.
10:30 Speaker 06 Yeah.
10:30 Speaker 01 Well, at least tie. But, so, yeah, we would spend a lot of time coming up with names of operations when we were moving franchises around and selling and buying franchises. We had code names for everything. Our code name, well, whatever.
10:43 Pablo Torre? What's your, hold on, what's your code name?
10:45 Speaker 06 Was there one called Code Name Ruin the Montreal Expos?
10:53 Pablo Torre? Codename, I'm gonna be a villain in a documentary in 2025?
10:57 Speaker 01 Operation Relocation. No, it wasn't called that.
11:01 Pablo Torre? What was it called?
11:02 Speaker 01 I, I don't remember.
11:03 Pablo Torre? That's not accurate.
11:06 Speaker 01 They're all private, though.
11:07 Pablo Torre? Very good.
11:07 Speaker 01 So they, so.
11:08 Pablo Torre? That's the whole point of a good codename, until it's time to go public.
11:12 Speaker 01 No, but they did, these names, knowing they'd go public with it.
11:15 Pablo Torre? Well, this one, I should correct myself. It was, of course, Operation Nothing But Bet, which is the NBA inside information being leaked by allegedly Terry Rozier aforementioned, as well as Damon Jones, who was this strange volunteer kind of assistant coach character with the Lakers, as well as co-conspirator number eight, who is otherwise identified by his biographical information in that indictment as Chauncey Billups as well. Long wind-up for me to say that we have at the desk, John, a pleasure of a case study in the fact that David Samson, while president of the Marlins, had to deal with a player
11:58 Pablo Torre? who was ensnared in a gambling scandal, so.
12:02 Speaker 01 Well, Jared Cozart, you, I'm sure, John, you, you watched him pitch many times, I'm sure.
12:07 Speaker 06 I followed the career assiduously.
12:09 Speaker 01 First time he's heard that name, is my guess. He's a guy we acquired, and we got notified, we got a call from baseball. We were not aware of an investigation, we were not aware of any impropriety, and we got a call on a random day that ended with Y, that our pitcher was involved in illegal gambling, in violation of the rule that prohibits that. And our question was simple, which is, what can we do? Is he going to be suspended?
12:37 Speaker 06 And, and this was after you had acquired him?
12:40 Speaker 01 Yes.
12:40 Speaker 06 Okay.
12:40 Pablo Torre? This is March 2015.
12:41 Speaker 06 So you didn't get a heads up before?
12:43 Speaker 01 Zero.
12:44 Speaker 06 But after you acquired him, they called and said, gee, by the way?
12:47 Speaker 01 And it was, by the way, the investigation's done, and the deal with the player and the union is done, and it's the same thing they do with steroids. You only get the call when, when it's done, all the appeals are done, and the punishment is ready to be vetted. And we were told that Cozart's only gonna be. Fine, but that he was betting on sports, but they were going to announce that it was not baseball. The first thing I did upon getting the call was I went right to Cozart. And I, and I said to him like, how can you do this? You are sacrificing and endangering your entire career. Where you have a chance to make millions of dollars because god, your breaking ball is so good. And he was sheepish.
13:25 Pablo Torre? He was breaking your balls.
13:26 Speaker 01 He was, it was, it was crazy to me.
13:29 Pablo Torre? The story, just to catch people up, apparently this was a Twitter driven story. Do you remember the details?
13:36 Speaker 01 This is the early days.
13:37 Pablo Torre? Yeah, we're talking 2015.
13:39 Speaker 01 So he ended up deleting his Twitter account.
13:41 Pablo Torre? Which is always a great sign.
13:42 Speaker 01 Great move, right? The minute he started to get in trouble, I like when people do that. And so, yeah, he, um, right, you can catch people easily. He, what his claim was, and I can see players doing this, and I'm wondering what Terry will say. His claim was that he was not aware that it was an issue to do anything other than bet on baseball.
14:07 Pablo Torre? He had been apparently, allegedly, in direct message conversations with a gambling expert. And it was about, someone was soliciting gambling advice, allegedly?
14:18 Speaker 01 It happens to players all the time. So it's a little, it's a little subject that you guys don't talk about a lot, which is, and players are beginning to say things. Remember the recent player who was yelling, if you're betting for a preseason game, you got a real problem? It was a player who got yelled at during an NBA preseason game. And I'm reminded about the terrible things that are said to baseball players and basketball players and football players when people lose money. As though they have the ability to
14:47 Pablo Torre? Yeah.
14:47 Speaker 01 Get to these players. And the players see these tweets and these DMs, they really do, they pretend they don't, but they do. It's highly inappropriate. So it was a big deal back then, Paulo, and remember, this is 10 years ago. And our concern was anyone else on the team doing this. Because we didn't want to be embroiled, and you mentioned the Black Sox, that comes up in front offices. You don't want to be that. There's two things you don't want when you run a team. You don't want your team to die in a plane crash, and you don't want your team to be embroiled in a gambling scandal.
15:18 Pablo Torre? In some order.
15:20 Speaker 01 Literally in that order. Plane crashes first.
15:23 Speaker 06 And what was the, what happened with, uh, Kozar?
15:26 Speaker 01 Uh, he was fined and paid the fine, settled, and then went on to not have an illustrious career.
15:32 Speaker 06 But there was no team discipline. You accepted the league.
15:35 Speaker 01 Part of it is, is that we can't.
15:38 Speaker 06 Cause of CBA?
15:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, we don't have the right to discipline a player. God, what I would have done to D. Gordon, right? Of course, I would like to.
15:44 Pablo Torre? What did D. Gordon do to you?
15:45 Speaker 01 He got suspended for steroids after we gave him a guaranteed contract. And, uh, we'd liked, I would like to have punished him more for screwing up our years so badly. But we weren't allowed to.
15:55 Speaker 06 Yeah.
15:56 Pablo Torre? So Kozar, who was 24 at the time, was investigated after a screen grab of direct messages allegedly from him seemed to be looking for gambling advice. And he deletes the account. Major League Baseball says, "We've completed our investigation into his possible connection to sports-related gambling. No evidence was found, according to the commissioner's office, and that Kozar fully cooperated."
16:18 Speaker 01 No evidence was found that he bet on baseball.
16:19 Pablo Torre? That he bet on baseball.
16:20 Speaker 01 That's the big one. And that's similar, you saw what happened with Chauncey Billups. They immediately said, oh, he did not do anything on the games that he was coaching. And it turns out that that's just a quick thing you do and say and leak out there immediately upon this nightmare happening to the NBA. But that's not the biggest issue that Adam Silver has right now.
16:39 Pablo Torre? Right.
16:39 Speaker 01 At all.
16:40 Pablo Torre? Right. So, so the nightmare, just to be clear about Operation Nothing But Bet, is that this is, uh, it's a function of the fact that there is a menu of legal options to make micro bets, prop bets, on things like unders. I mean, that's the through line here. Like, where are we? What's different from now in 2015? Is that now there is a marketplace established for things like Terry Rozier unders.
17:05 Speaker 01 A legal marketplace in many states.
17:07 Pablo Torre? A legal market for hyper-specific statistical underperformance. And in the Chauncey Billups case, allegedly, it was giving information that a star player was not going to play in a game. They were allegedly tanking for Victor Wembanyama in this season. This is 2023, the spring, in March. And there again, you're sort of betting, you're allowing allegedly inside information to go to people who want to bet on underperformance.
17:37 Speaker 01 It's why the injury report matters so much in the NFL. Because of gambling. It's not about competition, it's about gambling. And they take it super seriously. The difference is improbable, questionable. Like, those are serious differences when it comes to the line and to gambling. And I mean L-I-N-E, though I could mean L-Y-I-N-G. And so, in baseball, if you have information and there's been a starting pitcher announced, and then that starting pitcher gets pulled right before the game, and then you're doing a bullpen game, that would be good information to know. In basketball, if there's a player who's probable and then doesn't play, or unlikely and then does play, those all would have line impacts. And that's so easy for people to take advantage of.
18:21 Speaker 06 Right. Haven't there been some cases where the betting companies have refunded people's money? Even though there was no suggestion that it was inappropriate that the person was not played, but just to be on the safest side of right here, there have often been refunds, I think.
18:40 Speaker 01 I know like with Draymond Green, Coco can probably help me on this. When Draymond Green played in the game, Klay Thompson's first game back, I believe he took the tip, the center court tip, and then immediately left the game. So it was a game played for him, but all of his unders hit. And the thought was he was gonna play, and I believe that everyone got refunded that day. But I think Coco would have that. But that's the one that comes to my mind.
19:02 Pablo Torre? The whole thing, though, about injury or lineup information being policed. I mean, now, there's a, the difference, what's it, what's the difference between now and 10 years ago? It's that 10 years ago, if you wanted to bet on such specific things, you'd need to go to a bookie who had a strangely hyper-specific assortment of options that you were interested in that was relevant to your inside information. Now it exists for pretty much everything. And-
19:28 Speaker 01 There's no more parking lots.
19:29 Pablo Torre? Well, so, the question of, back in the day, everybody was aware why perhaps beat writers were very closely followed by your neighborhood bookie. Did you care about that? I mean, it was a different time.
19:43 Speaker 01 I would say we never thought of it. I can't say that when we were making changes to our lineup that we ever thought about the gambling side of it in my career. I always knew it was there, and I knew people who were betting, obviously, but-
19:57 Speaker 06 Pretty hard to police your own team based upon what people may be doing illegally.
20:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, it would not. I mean, it would not. It would be like the CEO of, you know, the president of ESPN worrying or thinking about a lower-level person who's engaging insider trading and having that impact his life and what he does on a daily basis. I would assume you never gave it a thought.
20:19 Speaker 06 No.
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21:10 Speaker 05 I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.
21:41 Speaker 02 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
21:47 Speaker 03 Love the crown molding.
21:48 Speaker 02 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
21:52 Speaker 03 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?
21:56 Speaker 02 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
22:00 Speaker 03 No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you.
22:03 Speaker 02 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
22:06 Speaker 04 Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.
22:18 Pablo Torre? Well, part of the question now is what is reasonable responsibility? Now that the threat, the danger of such a thing is that much more incentivized. And all of us, look, this is not a conversation about whether we should ban prop bets or not. That's not where I wanted to go with it, although that is an active, thriving conversation. My personal belief as always is that we should legalize and regulate. And there are decisions to be made around what happens when you push stuff into black markets versus keep them regulated. It's worth noting that as usual here, the incentive from the gambling operators, from DraftKings, from FanDuel, in fairness to them, has been to want to catch this stuff. And they did flag this stuff and alert the NBA, according to the reporting.
23:02 Speaker 01 It's becoming a very well-known argument that the legalization in these sports books, DraftKings, et cetera, what they're doing is actually helpful to the leagues. That is the position that we are asked to take, is the position that many of us actually feel, including myself. I didn't know whether you're talking about weed or about gambling.
23:20 Pablo Torre? Exactly. I'm consistent across both fields.
23:24 Speaker 06 I think this is an example where the likelihood is that it being legal made it more likely to be caught. You have a second conflict, which is the proposition bets are dramatically more effective at making money on gambling than many of the other traditional bets. So you do have a conflict. The leagues always say, well gee, we'd really love for you to de-emphasize prop bets, particularly these sort of very specific player, are they gonna play, are they gonna... But those are the bets on which they make the most money.
23:58 Speaker 01 Adam Silver must have had inside information because before the indictment was read on television in a live press conference, days before that, he had gone on a show to talk about prop betting and his desire to see prop betting adjusted, if not made illegal in states where there's legalized gambling. And it turns out that he knew not when, but he certainly had an idea that there was some stuff going on. And there were some allegations.
24:25 Speaker 06 But he's been consistent about saying that for years.
24:28 Speaker 01 He's been on the wrong side from the start.
24:31 Speaker 06 Well, but you got the conflict, David. You've been on the wrong side. They won't. I mean, Adam has been consistent at saying sports betting gets people attuned to more of our games. They watch more closely. They spend more time. That's all positive. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But then, without the prop bets, that would be less the case. I mean, the fact of the matter is your best restitution is still to catch these guys. And I would assume that some majority of the players have an IQ above two figures. That will allow, I would assume that most of the players, most of the players.
25:05 Speaker 01 Two figures is very small. Multiple figures, though.
25:08 Speaker 06 Well, two figures is 99. That is slightly below average. And I'm just suggesting that at this point, to bet, own something about your own performance when you are due on a guaranteed contract to make $26 million, does fail the triple-digit IQ test in this matter.
25:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, but you know that people with money like more money. I mean, I, that's been a very serious theme that going on for the past two weeks. Is that, hey, how could anyone do this when they're making so much money? Why would you give it up for a couple hundred grand? And I, I think I know the answer.
25:47 Speaker 06 Well, I certainly believe and have the experience that people who make a lot of money, care in some cases, many cases, more than people who don't have money about tipping the cab driver. And.
26:00 Speaker 01 Well, you don't have to talk about tipping, but that, that's the thing. But I, I think it's a more global conversation, which is people with money tend to do things to get more money. And they tend to want more money, even in smaller increments than you would imagine.
26:15 Speaker 06 My experience with that is true. When we did the ESPYS and invited 300 to 500 athletes, a plurality of them, through their agents mostly, asked, were we paying for their hotel? Were we paying for their airfare? And what was in the gift bag? It always amused me that they cared so much about the gift bag, because there is nothing in it that you couldn't buy with a fraction of your weekly salary.
26:41 Speaker 01 It feels so much better to get stuff for free, though.
26:44 Speaker 06 I don't know. I used to say-
26:46 Pablo Torre? When life is just a t-shirt cannon throwing luxury goods at you.
26:50 Speaker 06 I'm always amazed at standing up and, uh, and I pay for my own NBA tickets often now, and they're not inexpensive, but partly because I'm, uh, buying them on the resale market. But I'm always amazed when I stand up in that crowd where I know everybody has paid $1,000 for a playoff ticket, and they could not be more excited about trying to get an inexpensive-
27:13 Pablo Torre? Yes.
27:14 Speaker 06 -partly cotton t-shirt.
27:16 Pablo Torre? That's me. I'm into it.
27:18 Speaker 01 Are you the guy sitting down during the t-shirt toss?
27:21 Speaker 06 Yeah, I am. And if one actually hit me in the chest, I would just find the closest kid and hand it to them. Why do you want a bad free t-shirt?
27:30 Pablo Torre? The thrill of the hunt.
27:32 Speaker 01 It's, it's, I mean, you sound like a guy who's never been interested in the chase, and I know that to be wrong.
27:37 Speaker 06 The chase?
27:37 Speaker 01 Yes.
27:38 Pablo Torre? Well, what Michael Jordan said, speaking of which, right? Michael Jordan has famously said, "I'm not addicted to gambling, I'm addicted to competition." And so-
27:47 Speaker 06 Well, that's, that's kind of a bull**** thing to say. It's like saying, "I'm addicted to being, uh, unhappy about..." It's not an addiction.
27:56 Speaker 01 Wait, gambling is not addiction or competition?
27:58 Pablo Torre? So-
27:59 Speaker 06 It's a predilection, it's a compulsion, but it's not an addiction.
28:04 Pablo Torre? I think that in this conversation, though, there's a psychology that people cannot square the circle on because they look at the publicly listed earnings for Terry Rozier and they say, "This guy made $160 million-plus dollars in the NBA." That was his, of course, uh-
28:21 Speaker 01 Gross.
28:21 Pablo Torre? His gross.
28:22 Speaker 01 They never take the taxes out.
28:24 Pablo Torre? Not adjusting for take-home pay and taxes and all that. And, and-
28:27 Speaker 01 It's way less.
28:28 Pablo Torre? Chauncey Billups-
28:29 Speaker 06 Well, I know, because I pay my taxes. It's a lot less.
28:31 Pablo Torre? As, as I can concur personally, in my own small way. Uh, Chauncey Billups, uh, yes, pre-all of these adjustments, was, uh, 106-plus million dollars career, not counting even his coaching salaries, which are, again, yet more millions of dollars. The point being, though, that- I don't know. It just seems like one of the oldest stories in the book. Well.
28:54 Speaker 01 Didn't you do a story about players going broke?
28:56 Pablo Torre? Yes, exactly.
28:57 Speaker 01 It's quite common.
28:58 Pablo Torre? A super majority often are going broke.
29:01 Speaker 06 That's quite a different phenomenon because that probably has to do with just being foolish and spending over and over too much money. This is, seems like it would be a very binary thing. Gee, I might make, what, $12,000, $16,000 on this bet, which would potentially endanger my fourth year of $25, $26 million of guaranteed money.
29:29 Speaker 01 It sounds easy when you talk that way, but here's the problem. What happens if Terry had a gambling issue, a problem, which we have no idea? This is not, you know, irresponsible journalism. But here's what you think about as a league, which is what happens if he's betting on, if he's legally betting on other sports? And he loses, which is what everyone does. Generally loses. What happens if they can't pay or don't pay? And then the gamblers go and say, the bookies or the illegal guys say, hey, I won't take your money. I'll take some info and I'll make money that way.
30:05 Pablo Torre? Vulnerability is not merely a psychological concern. It is also, in this way, a financial one if you do love quote unquote competition slash gambling.
30:17 Speaker 06 Now, by the way, I'm making a distinction between a gambling addiction and a competition addiction. I do believe a gambling addiction is a thing.
30:25 Pablo Torre? Yes. Well, listen, the question, and the question, of course, who has one is a clinical, a truly clinical diagnosis that we are not equipped to establish here. But I can tell you that one of the characters in this story, who emerged in the episode we did in July of 2025, into Malik Beasley, who was the then Detroit Pistons guard, who was an incredibly prolific three-point shooter, also a guy who, according to our reporting, was probed by the NBA because he made bets on other, on at least one other sport. And the NBA basically looked into that. And then what they claim now is that it was folded into the larger probe into all this other stuff.
31:09 Pablo Torre? But the question of like, do NBA players specifically bet on other sports? Absolutely. Malik Beasley was one of those players, according to our reporting. And what do you do with that if you're the league? Well, it brings us back to the question of where the Miami Heat are in thinking about Terry Rozier. Because whatever Terry Rozier was known to have done, according to the investigation the NBA had conducted. I can tell you this. Terry Rozier's attorney, a man named Jim Trusty, he says, now, to Pablo Torre finds out, we watched the NBA investigate and clear Terry Rozier.
31:49 Pablo Torre? The Miami Heat were allowed to keep Terry Rozier on the court and play him in games, in NBA basketball games. And that all happened, of course, the Heat acquiring Rozier after the data was assessed by the gambling operators that, hey, something amiss is happening with all of these, you know, suspicious patterns.
32:13 Speaker 01 There's an investigation going on that the NBA allegedly knew about, side note, and allowed the Heat to continue to have him play. Continued, he stunk, but that's.
32:23 Pablo Torre? The federal government never cleared Terry Rozier. The Heat, the NBA, the Hornets, his previous employer, they were all told that the FBI, that the federal government was looking into this question. And so, yeah, if you're the Heat, I mean, you made a decision to go in on this guy, to acquire him. And I just wonder what, David, you would do if you were running the Heat in the present?
32:48 Speaker 01 I would be calling my attorney to read over my franchisee agreement that I signed with baseball to see where in it did I agree not to sue Major League Baseball? Because I definitely agreed to it when you sign a deal. And I would see whether there was an exception or some sort of loophole that I could find, because I'm pretty pissed. Now, the Heat can settle this. And the way to settle it is by having Terry Rozier's contract voided. Right now, it should be noted, he's getting paid every two weeks. Currently on his deal because the NBA like an hour and a half after the press conference. They basically said that Billups and Rozier are they're off the team. They are on leave.
33:33 Speaker 01 They're on leave. Which is like baseball's equivalent of the administrative list, which means you're being questioned and investigated about having done something bad, but we'll still pay you every two weeks.
33:45 Speaker 06 Will that money be recovered if he is found to be guilty?
33:49 Speaker 01 No. You do not get it brought back. Now, future salaries after an adjudication, if you then terminate a contract, then anything you're owed after that, obviously you wouldn't have to pay. But this is a critical moment for the Heat, not for salary cap reasons, because their salary cap things that they'd only have a mid-level exemption if Rozier's contract gets terminated. But it's screw all that, it's cash. Nicky Harrison could have $26 million more in cash.
34:18 Speaker 06 So it's a CBA agreement that they cannot let him go and must pay his guaranteed contract? Because the criminal proceedings clearly will not be finished.
34:29 Speaker 01 Nope.
34:29 Speaker 06 Anytime soon.
34:30 Pablo Torre? And these are all allegations I should make clear.
34:32 Speaker 01 Innocent before proven guilty. You can't terminate for cause based on a indictment.
34:38 Speaker 06 Sounds reasonable.
34:39 Speaker 01 It's but it feels terribly when it's happening.
34:42 Speaker 06 It does feel terrible, yeah.
34:43 Pablo Torre? Yeah, and here's some of the the back and forth, right? So March of 2023, Terry Rozier is flagged as this guy for whom suspicious unusual activity is coming in for the unders for a March 23 game that he exited early after nine minutes, according to the indictment.
34:59 Speaker 01 His unders.
35:00 Pablo Torre? His unders, exactly. He leaves with a supposed injury. Sportsbooks catch it. The NBA is informed Rozier doesn't play the rest of that season.
35:09 Speaker 01 Injury.
35:10 Pablo Torre? We are told. Meanwhile.
35:14 Pablo Torre? In real life, in the real world, the federal government continues to investigate. And that does not stop clearly. But the NBA, according to Terry Ruggers' attorney, is saying they cleared our guy, which is why he got back on the court, why he then got acquired by the Heat, and why the opportunity costs of what the Heat decided to do is almost impossible to settle in a court of sport law or otherwise.
35:39 Speaker 01 They're not going to file lawsuit against Adam. If I were Mickey, I'd want to, but they're not going to. But if I'm Adam Silver, I'm a little despondent today because I'm living with this and I've been pretty out front on the gambling thing. And now my league is really the one that keeps getting caught. And he's going to have to do something about it. And I would assume that Billups and Rozier's, their careers are done, but he's going to have to do more than just a three-word statement that came out the day it happened.
36:10 Pablo Torre? What Adam did, one of the first things he did, it was interesting, I was thinking back to 2014, and I'm reliving that year for a particular reason, not just because it's roughly a decade ago, in that same timeframe when David Samson is monitoring, you know, these Twitter scandals involving his employees about gambling. Adam Silver does two things. Number one, he orchestrates the great fanfare, the sale of the Clippers from Donald Sterling to Steve Ballmer. The other thing that happens in November, the other second, you could argue, big thing that he does as the commissioner of the NBA, is on November 13th, 2014, he publishes an op-ed in the New York Times titled "Legalize and Regulate Sports Betting."
36:47 Speaker 01 No other commissioners were on that byline, if you recall. If you go back to that.
36:51 Pablo Torre? I'm looking at it right now.
36:52 Speaker 01 How many other commissioners? Was Goodell there, Manford, Betman?
36:55 Pablo Torre? It was a single byline.
36:57 Speaker 01 One guy.
36:59 Speaker 06 Well, and one of his points was legalize gambling would make it easier for us to catch. And that was borne out in this instance. I'm puzzled as to why the league cleared him in an investigation.
37:14 Pablo Torre? According to the attorney of Terry Ruggers.
37:16 Speaker 06 By the way, who, we must stop for a moment. Was his name really James Trustee?
37:21 Pablo Torre? His name is James Trustee, and his name gets us to another, I think, important data point of how you do something in the year 2025 when there's a gambling or criminal scandal at your doorstep, which is ostensibly, you might hire a Trump allied attorney. And Jim Trustee is, of course, exactly that.
37:42 Speaker 06 Well, could be nothing more ironic than a Trump attorney being named Trustee.
37:46 Pablo Torre? He is.
37:46 Speaker 06 He's trusty.
37:48 Pablo Torre? He is.
37:48 Speaker 06 He's not trustworthy, but he's trusty.
37:50 Speaker 01 Man, you are so biased.
37:54 Pablo Torre? He literally, all I'm saying is that he did.
37:57 Speaker 06 Really? You think it's biased to disagree?
38:00 Speaker 01 I'm not saying that I'm pro-Trump or anti-Trump. I'm saying that you're so consistent, you won't even think about the underlying issue. You'll just automatically knee jerk say something against somebody.
38:11 Speaker 06 It's a good joke.
38:15 Pablo Torre? Trustee the process. Jim Trustee was literally representing President Trump personally for about a year amid all of his various, you know, again, there's a lot there. Just Google it.
38:24 Speaker 01 You have to remember that if you're the Heat, you're giving up draft picks for this putz. You're embarrassed by it. You want to save the money. Mickey Arison's got to be calling. Can you get Adam on the phone right now? Has he gotten a call from Mickey?
38:40 Speaker 06 Is he a putz or putzty?
38:42 Speaker 01 That's Yiddish. I shouldn't say schmeckel in Yiddish.
38:45 Speaker 06 I understand it's Yiddish.
38:46 Speaker 01 You do?
38:47 Speaker 06 Yeah.
38:47 Speaker 01 You knew putz was Yiddish?
38:48 Speaker 06 Yeah.
38:49 Speaker 01 That's impressive.
38:50 Pablo Torre? I didn't know J.J. Putz was Jewish.
38:52 Speaker 01 He is not, of course.
38:54 Pablo Torre? How, J.J. Putz is not Jewish?
38:56 Speaker 01 There's no way J.J. Putz is Jewish.
38:59 Pablo Torre? Well, that's a candidate for what I found out today at this point.
39:03 Speaker 01 I would have no way to know. I've not had him as a player, so I've not seen him, you know, after games.
39:08 Pablo Torre? No, hold on.
39:09 Speaker 06 Based upon this action, I would suggest that he is maybe a little putzy.
39:13 Pablo Torre? Can I, can I give you a website, which is increasingly problematic in the modern day, but there's a website called Jew or Not Jew?
39:20 Speaker 01 Come on.
39:21 Pablo Torre? But this is, I think, in the spirit of Airplane, you know, the pamphlet of Jewish athletes, I believe. And J.J. Putz, unfortunately, the verdict is not a Jew.
39:30 Speaker 01 Right.
39:33 Speaker 01 Did you, wait, you thought I was lying to you?
39:34 Speaker 06 I don't know that it's-
39:35 Speaker 01 We keep track of every single one of them.
39:37 Speaker 06 By the way, I'm not sure-
39:38 Pablo Torre? I've seen the pamphlet in the movie.
39:40 Speaker 06 But I'm not sure it's a verdict. I think it either is or is not. Verdict implies-
39:45 Speaker 01 No, but that's how Pablo does it. When he investigates journalistically.
39:49 Speaker 06 Is that journalistically? Have they journalistically investigated his heritage, his ethnicity, and determined the verdict is not Jew?
39:59 Pablo Torre? So according to Rabbi Jason Miller at RabbiJason.com, JJ Putz, yeah, is also not Jewish, even though he has a Yiddish last name. Parentheses, quote, "Google it."
40:54 Speaker 02 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
41:00 Speaker 03 Love the crown molding.
41:02 Speaker 02 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
41:06 Speaker 03 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?
41:09 Speaker 02 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
41:13 Speaker 03 No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you.
41:16 Speaker 02 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
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41:59 Pablo Torre? As a matter of looking to the larger landscape of sports and business, which I got this transition, is we turn to the sport without putzes. Literally speaking, we turn to women's basketball.
42:15 Speaker 06 Wow.
42:16 Speaker 01 This is, I've been waiting for this for a month now because we've got someone on the show who could give us such great information about what's going on with the WNBA. And I don't know that he will, but it bothers me that he won't.
42:31 Pablo Torre? This is a tension on the sporting class is that David accuses John of knowing more than he can share. John being a position of authority and financial investment in a certain three-on-three women's basketball league that is essential to the understanding of women's basketball and the economic landscape I've described, has great insight. And yet, also a conflict that we just disclosed, very helpfully for everybody to understand.
42:56 Speaker 06 The, so I am an investor and a media advisor to Unrivaled. And given that, if I did know anything that was not public, and I'm not suggesting I do, I would, there would be areas in which it would be inappropriate for me to disclose anything I might have learned as an advisor, confidential advisor. That would be, and you would not argue that that would be inappropriate for me to disclose.
43:25 Speaker 01 I wouldn't argue it, but you're in the media now. We're doing a show. And I, I think that I want to let the audience know from my standpoint that I'm fascinated by what's going on with the WNBA and their collective bargaining negotiation. And how you are, John Skipper, involved in it in a way, as president of ESPN, you were not, in my humble opinion. But much more so with Unrivaled because they are a big part of what's happening in the WNBA.
43:48 Speaker 06 Just to be clear, I have no... Involvement in the current CBA negotiation going on. And I have been public about some of my thoughts about that. And I may have thoughts about that that can be expressed on this show.
44:08 Speaker 01 What a contortionist.
44:09 Pablo Torre? Well, let's let me, let me, let me help you guys out. Let me help you guys out with the framework here because I, I think there's an actual bit of news we can use here. Because the WNBA is embroiled in this really public knockdown, drag out war of words over how this is to pay their players. And Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe were on this show not so long ago, talking about their perspectives on it. Your perspectives, though, as people who were truly at the bargaining table from the other side, from the management side, how would you steer them? How would you advise them if the goal was a resolution?
44:49 Speaker 01 Well, I don't know if that's the goal, but the goal is sustainability. From an ownership side, from a management side, it's really nice for employees to want to get paid a whole lot of money and a high percentage of revenue. But my interest in management is to make sure we've got a healthy business that can be sustained over a long period of time and that can be profitable. And I'm not going to sign up a deal. What kind of idiot would sign a deal that guarantees lack of profitability? You literally have to be out of your mind. And what the women want in the WNBA is for the WNBA to do a deal that would guarantee no profitability. They're not going to do it.
45:29 Speaker 01 And I would call the bluff of all of these negotiators, all of the women who are talking about, we want the same percentage of revenue as the NBA players get. They have zero chance, Pablo, and John, you know this and you won't respond. There is zero chance that the women in the WNBA are going to get the same percentage of revenue, quote unquote, that the NBA players get.
45:52 Speaker 06 I have previously suggested and still agree, and it doesn't violate anything, I should recuse myself on, that while they're not going to get that percentage immediately, that
46:04 Speaker 06 If I were sitting at the bargaining table, I would suggest that we're going to move over time to a model in which you do get paid a percentage of the revenues.
46:15 Speaker 01 They do get paid a percentage now. It's just 9%. So they're not arguing whether they get paid a percentage of revenues. The argument is what percentage should be.
46:22 Speaker 06 But that's just a derived number. It's not a, nobody is required to pay 9% of their revenues. It's a derived number.
46:29 Speaker 01 And so is their media revenue.
46:31 Speaker 06 Well, I understand that. I'm just suggesting that the players, if you want to get to a deal, and I would disagree with you. I think they do want to get to a deal. Of course, they would like that deal to allow their owners to be as profitable as they can be. Some of them will be profitable sooner rather than later. And I have suggested that the owners would be wise to understand that they're going to make the vast majority of money they make on flipping the team and not on annual, on annual, you're shaking your head.
47:05 Speaker 01 Spoken like a non-owner. That's the argument everyone makes. You'll make the money back when you sell the team. Where do you come up with the money to pay for the annual losses?
47:11 Speaker 06 And how did you do so when you were losing money at the raise and eventually sold the team?
47:17 Speaker 01 Marlins.
47:18 Speaker 06 Marlins, I'm sorry. Marlins. For so much money that it covered all the losses plus a gigantic profit. Is that not accurate?
47:25 Speaker 01 A ton of borrowing, a ton of, a ton of raising money on the capital markets to pay for the annual losses. And then there was a payback of all debt upon the flip of the team.
47:37 Speaker 06 And nobody ever discussed, well, yes, this seems crazy under our certain, our current operating situation, but we'll make it back when we sell the team.
47:48 Speaker 01 Because there was no, you have to have a financial plan. Our owner did not have a plan to sell the team in 2017. It happened because of an unfortunate series of events.
47:59 Pablo Torre? Well, this does remind me that there was this, ah, what was it? Oh, I think it's Netflix. Do we have that, do we have that, do we have that trailer? Do you have that trailer in which you may notice a familiar face who might be held to account on this very specific question?
48:20 Speaker 01 Oh, come on.
48:25 Pablo Torre? Over the French?
48:29 Speaker 01 Let me tell you about that guy.
48:30 Pablo Torre? I gotta translate that. Can you show that? Put it on, put it back on and so I can speak over the French. Because I want people to appreciate the Francophilia of all of this. David Samson was one of a kind. He carried a mirror everywhere he went so he could see himself.
48:47 Speaker 06 I don't believe that's accurate.
48:50 Speaker 01 David?
48:51 Speaker 06 Maybe he just means it metaphorically.
48:52 Speaker 01 Well, that's assuming that he can speak in metaphors.
48:57 Speaker 01 That is an example.
48:59 Speaker 06 He's a putz.
49:00 Speaker 01 He's not even that. And, um...
49:03 Speaker 06 He's le putz.
49:04 Pablo Torre? Who was that, David?
49:05 Speaker 01 A guy named Roger Brulat. He was a broadcaster who was a bitter, bitter man. And I feel for him. Looking back, I feel for him because the expos were his life and that was it. And he's still trading on that to this day. And I'm sorry for that. We all trade on our past and try to create new things for our future and present. But what he was trying to say is that I am so egomaniacal that all I cared about was how I looked. And he missed the point. I would have preferred him to say, "All he did was carry around $100 bills." Like, that sort of comment, meaning that all I cared about was money, et cetera. I would have had less issue with that than him saying that this was some sort of ego play about looks.
49:49 Pablo Torre? You know, I think it's often the case, John, that David is accused of only speaking the language of money. But what I am told is that that is not literally true, as this next clip might indicate.
50:08 Speaker 06 Wow, that's pretty good.
50:09 Pablo Torre? That's pretty good.
50:10 Speaker 01 The first interview I ever did was in French. The first time I ever had an IFB in my ear was December 9th, 1999. I did an interview in French and it was weird. Um, yeah, you gotta speak French when you run the expos.
50:22 Pablo Torre? In that clip, you're at the press conference table and there was a model of what?
50:28 Speaker 01 Well, we were trying to let people know that we were gonna build a new ballpark, but we had no money for it. All we had were, uh, we had renderings that we had done by, by a bunch of people.
50:40 Speaker 06 You could afford renderings, but not a stadium.
50:43 Speaker 01 This was not exact. This was like renderings from a box.
50:46 Speaker 06 I can suggest that I know for certain David does not carry a mirror around.
50:51 Speaker 01 I do not. I carry around a lot of stuff.
50:54 Speaker 06 That's a mischaracterization.
50:55 Speaker 01 But I do not carry around a mirror. But I do focus on whether I have food in my teeth after I eat. That is true. I do do that.
51:02 Speaker 06 I don't think that's peculiar.
51:03 Speaker 01 No, I, well, there's plenty of people walking around with a hand.
51:06 Speaker 06 Focus on whether it's germs. I do consider, but you know, I'm a, I'm a, uh...
51:12 Speaker 01 It's an interesting movie, which I'm sure you'll never watch on Netflix, because they tried to say who would kill the Expos.
51:18 Pablo Torre? Yes, the question is, who killed the Montreal Expos?
51:20 Speaker 01 That's literally the name of the movie. It's called Who Killed the Montreal Expos? And it goes through different suspects. And I'm a suspect. But of course, I didn't kill the franchise. Of course, no individual killed the franchise. It was, again, a series of moments that killed the franchise. But I cop to it in the movie, which you only saw the trailer. I'm sure you didn't see the movie, but...
51:40 Pablo Torre? Not yet.
51:41 Speaker 01 No, you're busy investigating journalistically.
51:44 Pablo Torre? That's right.
51:44 Speaker 06 Has the movie premiered yet?
51:46 Speaker 01 Yes, October 21st. So, a couple of weeks ago, yeah.
51:49 Pablo Torre? And so your review, as somebody who, in the trailer, for those who care to see that, was presented, you were presented as the murderer.
52:00 Speaker 01 Yes. Yeah, the trailer is not cut by the director. The trailer's cut by Netflix, just a little side note. And so the trailer had some very incorrect things. It misled you to believe Felipe Alou was impugning Jeffrey Loria's baseball knowledge, when in the movie, you realize he was talking about Claude Brochue, the owner before Jeffrey Loria. But when you make a trailer, you can make it look however you want. But you gotta watch the movie.
52:25 Pablo Torre? So, in other words, you think...
52:27 Speaker 01 We're innocent.
52:28 Pablo Torre? I believe there's a word for this.
52:30 Speaker 06 You do know journalistically, the reporter does not make the headline.
52:34 Speaker 01 That is true.
52:36 Pablo Torre? That's right.
52:36 Speaker 06 Which, so if you're mad about a headline, and you read the story and go, gee, this doesn't sound like what the headline says, you have an overeager editor somewhere who's trying to get more clicks on something, or get more eyeballs to read the story.
52:53 Speaker 01 I must piss you off.
52:54 Pablo Torre? Well, listen, I would love the plausible deniability of blaming the people on the other side of the glass for the words that they choose on the YouTube thumbnails. I don't know what this thumbnail is gonna say. I think it should also perhaps consider the fact that what David is asking all of us to consider him as at the end here is trusty.
53:17 Pablo Torre? You're a very trusty source.
53:20 Speaker 01 And not putzy at all.
53:23 Speaker 01 I think that was your out. Congrats.
53:37 Pablo Torre? This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production.
53:43 Pablo Torre? And I'll talk to you next time.
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54:35 Speaker 02 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
54:41 Speaker 03 Love the crown molding.
54:43 Speaker 02 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
54:46 Speaker 03 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?
54:50 Speaker 02 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
54:54 Speaker 03 No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you.
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