Pod Insights Pablo Torre Finds Out The Sporting Class: Are NFL Players Ready to Strike? About this episode Domonique Foxworth ran and — Mamma Mia! — lost in last week's secretive election by the NFL Players' Association. As he explains to Pablo and David Samson, unions may be more corporate than ever — but the fight against billionaires has never been more consequential. And the implications may turn nuclear for an MLB lockout.
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0:00 Pablo Torre? Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out, presented by eBay Live. I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're going to find out what this sound is.
0:08 Speaker 01 The only way you can win is if you are willing to endure the pain longer than they are.
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2:05 Speaker 01 Telling you.
2:07 Speaker 03 Got him.
2:08 Pablo Torre? Got him?
2:10 Speaker 03 Telling you.
2:12 Pablo Torre? What is this duet that's happening?
2:16 Speaker 01 Sorry.
2:17 Speaker 03 I'm digging that sweatshirt.
2:20 Speaker 01 Thanks, buddy.
2:21 Speaker 03 Did your child make it? It looks like a tie dye.
2:25 Pablo Torre? All right.
2:26 Speaker 01 It is.
2:26 Speaker 03 No, I don't mean that.
2:27 Speaker 01 It is tie dye.
2:27 Pablo Torre? I like the hoodie too, but were you guys about to do Dreamgirls? Was that what was happening?
2:30 Speaker 01 No, no.
2:32 Pablo Torre? I'm telling you, that's not, that's not what it was.
2:34 Speaker 03 And I'm telling.
2:34 Pablo Torre? And I'm telling you.
2:35 Speaker 03 Yeah.
2:36 Pablo Torre? Oh.
2:37 Speaker 03 I gave a standing ovation to that in a theater. In a movie theater.
2:41 Pablo Torre? The movie theater.
2:41 Speaker 03 I saw it alone and I stood up and applauded like I was on Broadway at the end of that Jennifer Hudson. Uh, it was such a performance that I had to. And I wasn't alone. I mean, I was alone in the movie, but other people stood up too.
2:56 Pablo Torre? I don't know if I've ever been to a movie where someone spontaneously stood up.
3:02 Pablo Torre? And the actors weren't like there, it wasn't like a premiere.
3:04 Speaker 03 I've, I've been there for applause. There was applause at the end of Basic Instinct. When I saw that.
3:09 Speaker 01 Have you never gone to like, like, um, a night of showing of like a big movie? Like, I feel like.
3:16 Pablo Torre? Oh, you know.
3:17 Speaker 01 Back in like the Mar- when Marvel was really cracking, I feel like if you went to like one of those movies around opening night, people would lose it.
3:26 Pablo Torre? Standing up sincerely for applause, I have not seen. I've seen people like, obviously like freak. I, I, I went to Mamma Mia. The movie.
3:36 Speaker 03 People were singing.
3:37 Pablo Torre? People were [bleep] dancing.
3:39 Speaker 03 Yeah.
3:39 Pablo Torre? So that's standing up. But that's a different thing.
3:41 Speaker 01 How do you dance? They like dance in the aisles or they just get up?
3:44 Pablo Torre? Dancing in the aisles. In front of like the screen, actually.
3:48 Speaker 01 I didn't know Mamma Mia had slaps like that. Like they, they got get out your chair bangers. Who, who's producing that? Metro Boomin? Who is, who is the producer for Mamma Mia?
4:00 Speaker 03 If you can't dance to ABBA. Wait, are you learning this for the first time?
4:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know what Mamma Mia is.
4:07 Pablo Torre? What do you think Mamma Mia is about? Hold on, let's, what do you think Mamma Mia is?
4:13 Speaker 01 Come on, man. We doing, uh, like a, a cultural checklist? Did I get to ask you guys questions too? Have you ever seen Paid in Full?
4:26 Speaker 01 Mamma Mia is about like, um, I know it has to do with like some infidelity or something. Where it's like a girl, a baby that they don't know who the dad is, something like that, right?
4:36 Speaker 03 That's right.
4:37 Pablo Torre? It's a funny takeaway. I wouldn't have that in my top five is what Mamma Mia is about, but that is true.
4:41 Speaker 01 I've never seen it. I've never seen it, but like I exist in, in America and unlike, uh, you guys, I have to be surrounded by your culture all the time and absorb it sometimes.
4:56 Pablo Torre? I know, I know that lots of places Dominique goes, he thinks to himself, once again, more Filipino shit. Damn it.
5:06 Speaker 01 That's true. This is the wrong audience, the wrong audience to make fun of for like imposing their culture over you. Damn it. I'm so used to being around just-
5:16 Pablo Torre? Copy paste.
5:16 Speaker 01 Regular whites. Yeah, my jokes don't work in every audience.
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7:15 Pablo Torre? It is good to see both of you. It's been too long since we do this.
7:20 Speaker 01 Nah, it's been right about right around time.
7:22 Speaker 03 He likes the cadence. Dominique texted on the side. Good cadence, like once every three months. That's about it.
7:30 Pablo Torre? How are you guys? Hello? Hi.
7:32 Speaker 03 What's up Pablo? Congrats. What a big day Dominique. I don't know if you're aware of the news. It's
7:38 Speaker 01 Oh, what happened? You got another award?
7:40 Speaker 03 Nominated for multiple Emmys, three of them. Two for best episode and one for best
7:48 Pablo Torre? Sports journalism and and best edited hosted series, I believe.
7:54 Speaker 03 Don't say you believe.
7:55 Pablo Torre? I was I was snubbed. I was snubbed for handsomest handsomest man in sports media.
8:02 Speaker 01 Don't try to pivot to jokes. You could at least have a good joke if you're trying to pivot. You're trying to get us off of this with bad jokes?
8:07 Speaker 03 He's trying to keep us on it, obviously. But it is it is newsworthy because you're competing not against schlock. You're competing against budget. You're competing against names and studios.
8:20 Speaker 01 He got budget too. I see. I know the books.
8:23 Pablo Torre? Let's get off the books. Now I'm pivoting. Now I'm pivoting. Before I demand the financials of the Walt Disney Company, I want to I want to pivot off of this. How many can we get to this? Because yes, people have been saying nice things. And someone else who said a nice thing was Pat McAfee. A colleague at ESPN who had as his special guest in person in studio, J.C. Tretter, the new executive director of the NFLPA. And here's how that conversation went.
8:52 Speaker 05 I saw Mr. Jones, who had worked with the NFLPA for 18 years, I think. I did not know who he was, but it seems like a lot of people respect him. He talked to Pablo Torre, and it felt like there was a little bit of a negative reaction to you becoming the role that you have. I didn't listen to the entire thing, and we Pablo Torre is going, by the way. We, he has courage to go. I mean, I think that's good for society is what people say. We, God bless him for that. But I did hear that there was and read some of the headlines about the backlash, you know, that was kind of happening with you getting in there. What do you think is the main mission on why people maybe don't like that you're in there? And has the history of the NFLPA been something that is changeable for future NFLPA?
9:36 Speaker 06 Yeah, you said Pablo's got the courage to go. I'd challenge him to have the courage to be right, which he hasn't been for a very long time.
9:43 Speaker 05 Okay, all right, okay.
9:44 Speaker 06 So he's said a lot of things that factually just aren't true, kind of created.
9:48 Pablo Torre? So that was J.C. Tretter, David, the new executive director of the NFLPA. Dominic Foxworth, our friend here, is the former player president of the NFLPA, a candidate in the last two executive director searches. I should say first that I wish J.C. Tretter had the courage to come on this show. We've been asking since June of last year, and he won't talk to us. He hasn't given us comments or anything like that. But the Mr. Jones thing, Craig Jones is the former chief security officer of the NFLPA. He was there for over 17 years. He was our guest on Pablo Torre Finds Out last week. He has been on the record long before I even knew about these characters, how worried he is about the corruption.
10:31 Pablo Torre? He didn't talk about Craig Jones, J.C. Tretter, though. He talked about me.
10:35 Speaker 03 I thought it was very telling that Tretter is gonna go safe. He's gonna go on McAfee. He's gonna mention your name and try to impugn your ability as a journalist. But that's not really addressing what you were addressing. And so what I always find interesting, and management does this too. It's not unique to the union. It's PR 101, that when you don't have the facts, you just argue the law. When you don't have the law, you argue the facts. And when you have neither, you just yell. And what I've noticed about the NFLPA during this process was just a lot of yelling. Because what you had, you didn't discover this. You just gave it oxygen. And what, what, you're not gonna get Dominique to talk here because, and Dominique, please correct me if I'm wrong.
11:19 Speaker 03 The union is an evolving live species. And I don't think you're gonna burn that bridge, no matter what your view is internally. And the reason why you're not is because I don't view J.C. Tretter as a long-term asset to the union. And that was my issue from the start. When he stepped down, I thought that he'd be down and gone. I thought that it was a mistake of the union to bring him back. And it just showed a desire to almost kick the corruption can for as long as possible. But eventually, that comes back to get you. And I think that's the reason Dominique will stay quiet. Because his type of leadership, and Dominique doesn't pay me for this, but his type of leadership is serious leadership that is based on intelligence and experience.
12:03 Pablo Torre? Look at, look at, look at what we're, look at this, look at this.
12:07 Speaker 01 You're wrong, but, but you're sweet. Like, I appreciate that was, I mean, I burned the [BLEEP] out of bridge. I think if I feel strongly about something, I will absolutely torch that bridge. I, I, that's one thing that comes with, like, the, the confidence of a cornerback, borderline arrogance is that, like, I'm not concerned about, like, where I'mma work. Like, I'm talented, I'll be fine.
12:33 Speaker 03 I wasn't inferring that at all, Dominique.
12:35 Speaker 01 Oh, no, I guess you, it, it felt to me like you were saying, like, I didn't wanna burn that bridge because, like, it's, if J.C. might be out at some point and I might wanna try to get that role. I guess that's what I thought.
12:46 Speaker 03 Well, I just think, yeah, I do think that, actually. And I think that's smart of you. I think it, but that doesn't stop you from giving opinions.
12:52 Pablo Torre? But I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, Dominique referred to something that I- I want to ask him directly about because for those who did not pay attention to the multi-part series with Mike Florio on Pablo Torre finds out dating back to the summer of last year. The thing that's insane about this story is that J.C. Treter was the guy who was the president of the NFLPA, the player president, the job that Dominique had. And he's the guy who ran the search that resulted in the election of Lloyd Howell, who is, and this is not even a subjective assessment at this point, who was the most embarrassing character in the history of sports unions. Well, that's okay.
13:33 Pablo Torre? He had to resign amid a scandal that involved a secret confidentiality agreement around this collusion ruling, a partial victory for the players, the holy grail that the players suddenly had that they then decided to bury in coordination with the league. There were strip club receipts he expensed. There was a secret, or not so secret, side job with the Carlyle Group, which is one of the private equity firms on the NFL's approved list of investors and NFL teams. There was the fact that he was, in fact, the CFO of Booz Allen when they had the largest federal procurement scandal in which Booz, the consulting firm, apparently overbilled the US government hundreds of millions of dollars. And it goes on, actually. He resigns.
14:16 Pablo Torre? And the thing about the union, when you see just that story, Dominique, is this feels both like an extreme circumstance, but also in line with what has long afflicted labor unions in America, which is corruption. I get if J.C. Treter is like, look, I was the number two. I'm a good soldier. I tried to do his best for the union, even as I saw corruption unfolding in front of me, which was shocking, even though he, by the way, was made the chief strategy officer, a job that had never existed before, by Lloyd Howell, upon Lloyd Howell's election. My question for you is, after that long ass wind up, what would you do if you were the top lieutenant at the NFLPA? And you saw an unfolding corruption scandal?
15:00 Pablo Torre? Like genuinely, like how would you have handled that?
15:03 Speaker 01 It's the players' union and like, that's something I genuinely believe. So like, if this is whom they elected, then that's who they elected. So like, I, that's why like, I'm not gonna come on here and bash. Like if they don't like them, if all the things that you've brought up or any of that comes up, then they'll do something about it. Having someone outside the union try to like,
15:28 Speaker 01 impose what they want on the will of the union. Like I think, having been someone who was in leadership there, like that was always like, it felt condescending and frustrating. And so like, like that's why I'm in this situation right now where it's like, I can see all the reasons why I think the union has made the wrong choice. And I would, could easily justify, maybe I need to get involved and get loud and try to undercut them. Like, it's easy to justify the things that feel good to you. It's a job that's, it's an organization that's meant a lot to me. It's a job that I was really excited about, that felt consequential, that I, I really wanted. I didn't get it. And the result is not gonna be me trying to figure out a way to pretend as if,
16:13 Speaker 01 or to try to take down the union and pretend as if it's only like, from the noblest of places. Like it, part of it could be, but part of it like honestly would be because it's something that means a lot to me. So like, I, I apply that to the question that you're asking me. It's like, yeah, I know what the right answer is. And in that situation, in a similar situation, I've made the right decision. But like, I, I just feel like you're setting me up a little bit there.
16:40 Speaker 03 You know, management goes through this too, when you're choosing a commissioner. And companies go through this when you're choosing a president or a chairman of the board. Generally, you try to stay inside. And the reason when you get an outside commissioner, as an example, or an outside head of the players' union, the way White was, you tend to not understand really how things work, you tend to not understand how to juggle the plates properly, and you tend not to be beholden to the power brokers within said organization. So it's very common what the union did, so I don't want to criticize kicking the corruption can down the road because businesses do that all the time on every side.
17:20 Speaker 01 But it's actually not super common for the NFLPA, which is, I don't know if it's good or bad, because you lose a lot of institutional knowledge, it's really difficult, but Gene Upshaw died suddenly, and then I was on executive committee then, we led a search then that brought up some internal candidates and a lot of external candidates. We went with the external candidate, and then this next change of power, they went with another external candidate. The only other executive director before that was Ed Garvey, so like, it's not something that we really do, which like, has hurt us in the past, honestly, with the institutional knowledge and the like, history and connection, because while you did say that's something
18:05 Speaker 01 that's normal for businesses and companies and organizations, you're right, there's something different about unions to me. Because they negotiate against businesses, we talk about them like they are businesses, but they aren't, they're social movement organizations, essentially. And what that means to me is that the heart of it matters a lot more than a lot of the mechanics of the decision-making, and I know it sounds naive.
18:35 Speaker 03 It does, because it's not that way anymore, Dominique, it's like longing for the typewriter to me. Look at the players' union in baseball and in football, one of the things that took down this administration were outside business interests in order to raise revenue through different streams.
18:51 Pablo Torre? In fact, the federal government is investigating both the MLBPA and the NFLPA for alleged self-enrichment as a part of One Team Partners, this, you know, name, image, and likeness marketing arm of- The union, but Dominique, to that point, yeah, there is capitalism more than ever in all of this.
19:08 Speaker 01 I mean, you you need money to fund the union. So like, I'm not saying you're not supposed to generate revenue any way you can. So like the for profit arm, it exists and it's important. And also like you need lawyers, you need corporate structure. Like I get all of that. My point is, I've been through this journey as a player who was involved in the union and felt that I needed to like, understand the world of business more. So went to business school, worked at other unions, understood the business world more. Ultimately, come all the way back around to understanding that actually,
19:53 Speaker 01 the way to have a successful union is the way that social movements have success. It's not by outcorporating the other corporations. And like, I get how attractive that is as a player because I was there before. When I went as the COO of the MBPA, I spent months putting together a really elaborate strategic plan that was going to win on all fronts and win the war against the NBA on their terms. And thought that it was really going to work. But ultimately, I know that that's not what's going to work because the like, the dynamics of a negotiation between a labor union in the organization are such that
20:36 Speaker 01 the only thing that will have you survive is your commitment to protect what other people sacrificed to give you and to be able to hand over what you've created to the people after you. Because ultimately, the people who are going to have to sacrifice during that fight will not benefit most from the things that they sacrifice for. And that's akin to like any sort of social movement. It be it like women's suffrage, or be it LGBTQ plus rights, or.
21:04 Speaker 01 Civil rights, like the most impactful social justice movement that we've had, or social organization movement that we've had in this country, like any of that stuff, it's all true. And that's the thing that scares me and worries me more about like the future of unions, is losing the connection to that. Because the only way you can win is if you are willing to endure the pain longer than they are. Like, that's, that's the final, final place that you end up on. And you have to be able to have a credible threat, that you're gonna be able to do that. And the only way that you can have that credible threat is that you actually are capable of doing it. And there's not enough lawyers in the world, there's not enough corporate structure in the world,
21:49 Speaker 01 there's not enough money in the world to convince people to do that if they don't feel a connection to the organization. What you do lose every time you bring in a brand-new person. You know, hey, we're starting all over, we don't know anything, we have no connection to this. We're gonna, we're gonna outsmart the owners, and, or we're gonna out-negotiate them. And that's something that also, like, I think David, I'm sorry, I'm rambling, but David, you might be able to speak to this also. But I think generally, people misunderstand what it means to participate in a negotiation. They think it's a movie. They think that it's whoever has the craftiest line, or whoever can win the argument in the room, or whoever can play hardball the best, or yell the loudest. No.
22:32 Speaker 01 A, a, a child could win a negotiation against Roger Goodell and the NFL, if they had the backing that they need. The negotiation takes place before you walk in the room. If Roger Goodell and the owners genuinely believe that the players will not play, for whatever period of time it takes to get what they want, then you can send anybody you want in that room and get it done. If they don't, you can send the fastest-talking, smartest lawyer, most tactical politician you ever had in that room. They're gonna walk out with the same [bleep] they came in there with.
23:09 Speaker 03 So you're talking about leverage, number one. Number two, you're answering the question of why the outside business interests become so important, because it is the, what- The issue is current day capital. Players and their ability to sit requires them to figure out financially the impact it has to them. And not all of the union feels the impact the same, but the union clearly needs money and which is why they go to outside sources and create for profit. MLB does the same thing on the ownership side. Side note, they go to the banks to get a extra line of credit before a CBA negotiation. They make sure there's enough debt capacity that all teams have.
23:51 Speaker 03 They make sure there's a furlough plan to manage your expenses. All of that is done in order to withstand the possibility of missing games. Because what you're saying about the union is also true about management. You call them billionaires and as though that's the end of the discussion, but they're having the same meetings on the owner's side as you're having on the player's side. How much can we stand and what is our financial situation while we're standing it? And then it's just a matter of you show your cards at some point by who gives. And Pablo, where Dominique is 100% correct, in the room, it's like saying oral arguments win the day in front of a judge. They do not. It's all about the briefs.
24:33 Speaker 03 At the end of the day in a negotiation, inside the room is posturing. Inside the room is giving people an opportunity to get stuff off their chest and to look good in front of their fellow negotiating team. But actual provisions are agreed to outside of those official bargaining sessions.
24:51 Pablo Torre? So you guys fundamentally then agree on what is the actual game here, right? The game which shapes the biggest sports in America, which is will the players actually credibly threaten to sit out games? That's what this all drives towards.
25:07 Speaker 01 I mean, when I first got involved with the union, it was under Gene Upshaw and they had.
25:15 Speaker 01 Functionally, lost a couple of strikes, I guess. I mean, the first one I would consider an outright loss. The second one, they kind of considered outright loss. Gene was kind of against striking as a policy. But, and they, they got their biggest win was from decertifying the union and exposing the league to antitrust and treble damages, which then, as a function of the settlement, the league required the union to, to reconstitute in order to provide them that protection. So like, I understand how difficult it is, but I also understand that that is the game.
25:56 Speaker 01 And the one thing I'll push back on, David, a little bit on is, I did say billionaires, and it was meant as like, saying that the game is different for them, because it is. And I know that maybe it's not as, as easy for them to go without revenue as I make it sound, but it's certainly a lot easier than it is for the players, no matter how successful the player is. In part, for two reasons. One is, it's only 32 teams in football. So like, the, the windfall that they would get from the change in revenue split, which is ultimately what this all comes down to at the end of the day, is how much money
26:40 Speaker 01 you get to put in your pocket, how much I get to put in my pocket, whether it's through benefits, or accommodations, or salary, or any of that. That's what it all comes down to. But the benefit for them, because it's only split 32 ways, is huge. And not only is it huge, it's something that they keep into perpetuity, and they hand that benefit off to their children. So, the motivation for them to endure that is, is a lot bigger than a player. The actual logical extension for a current actual player is not.
27:18 Speaker 01 To endure a strike or a lockout. It's not. Like, you're not the, the only thing, which is why I go back to being like a social organism, a social movement, is like, the only thing that is powerful enough to overcome that logic is understanding that it's your responsibility, it's your obligation to uphold this because the guys who are benefiting from this today, you can go back to the players who went through the strikes. They ain't getting no money. The players that went through the strikes did not benefit from the strikes. The players that were there, like-
27:53 Pablo Torre? What an unpopular political position, Dominique.
27:56 Speaker 01 The truth?
27:57 Pablo Torre? Yes. No, like-
27:59 Speaker 01 The truth?
27:59 Speaker 03 It's, it's a little more nuanced because this is not about unions with these-
28:03 Speaker 01 So now you don't have to, you don't have to wonder why I didn't get invited to present to the players anymore. Now you know.
28:08 Pablo Torre? It's, it's funny. It's like, any election, you know, go to, go to student council.
28:13 Speaker 03 That's right.
28:14 Pablo Torre? Pizza parties and vending machines. Everybody gets more snacks. Like, no one wants to hear that you have to sacrifice for the people who are not you. I mean, that-
28:24 Speaker 01 Yes.
28:24 Pablo Torre? But, no, but-
28:25 Speaker 01 I get what you're saying, but like-
28:27 Pablo Torre? This is, this is the difficulty, Dominique, of, of what I'm, what I'm hearing is that you went in there and said the thing that is politically costly, but ultimately strategically, the only move the union has. Which is to organize.
28:46 Speaker 03 And it's interesting, as we head into baseball labor negotiations, decertification is a word that we're going to be talking a lot about because that very easily could be the path that Major League Baseball Players Association has to take in order for there to become a deal with this current labor deal that expires in December of 26. And what he said after with the owners requiring, think about that statement because it's totally correct, requiring them to recertify, to become a union again-
29:15 Pablo Torre? Oh, this is fascinating, this part, the nuclear- The so-called nuclear option is fascinating.
29:19 Speaker 03 It's not really nuclear. They call it that because in my view, when you say nuclear, there's no recovering from that. Decertification is not a nuclear option because it leads to a deal and it leads to recertification, which leads to you're back on the road.
29:34 Pablo Torre? Nah. Mr. Harvard Business School wants to wade into this.
29:38 Speaker 01 I mean, it's pretty risky maneuver.
29:42 Speaker 01 For a couple of reasons, because you, the league will ultimately accuse you of a sham decertification, which then you'll have to fight in court, which the judge may or may not be on your side. Probably considering the way the country feels about unions right now, my guess is the judge is probably not gonna be on your side. Um, you also, if you decertify your union, you're also clearing the way for someone else to create a union. So like you can decertify your union and become an association and still provide a lot of the same services to your, your members. But you lose the ability to like automatically collect dues and all that stuff.
30:24 Speaker 01 And also you open the door for, uh, the league, which I'm sure that they do everything above board and they would not try to protect their fortunes in any way possible, but you open up a door for the league or for, uh, I don't know, a former player or anybody to come in and then reconstitute some sort of union. And like you have to, if you decertify, it can't be for the purposes of preparing for CBA negotiations. I think there's a real argument to say.
30:57 Speaker 03 In advance of it. I'm not saying that.
30:59 Speaker 01 Right, but I mean, right, it has to be way in advance of it though. And it also has to be genuinely, not just as a, in preparation, genuinely because you believe that the players are not served by having an official union. And also like you then make the teams operate separately, which then has a negative effect on the amount of revenue that you can generate. That goes back into the pot. So one of the benefits is that the league can now go as a group and sell their TV rights. That's something that you wouldn't be able to do unless you had this union cover. As a player, I decertify the union, they can't do that no more. Now they
31:43 Speaker 01 gotta go out and make these separate deals. The money changes. So it's, I mean, it's just a whole, it worked then, and it could work again, and it might be worth trying, but it's, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than we, um, we like to present.
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33:32 Pablo Torre? At goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.
33:46 Pablo Torre? The question of what kind of a person should run a labor union, though, I do think something that Dominique mentioned before is worth emphasizing, which is that this thing does require a bunch of true believers who are of the genuine conviction that this thing is not a business. And in fact, it is governed by labor law, which is not business law, right? There's a difference. And so when I get to, okay, the rhetoric of someone like J.C. Tretter, let's go back to him for a second. And he's saying, finally, we get a former player back in charge. The thing I think about is frankly, the 2023 election he ran.
34:32 Pablo Torre? Dominique, who are the finalists for that?
34:35 Speaker 01 You're the reporter.
34:37 Pablo Torre? Lloyd Howell and David White, neither of whom played in the NFL, neither of whom are athletes.
34:42 Speaker 03 And they went to David White as the interim.
34:44 Pablo Torre? And they went to David White right after Lloyd Howell and J.C. Tretter both resigned, right? So when he had authority over who should be considered for this job, he did not pick a player. He did not encourage a player as a finalist in that regard. And then in this one, the only former player who was deemed suitable as a finalist was J.C. Tretter himself. Dominique, what do you think of that concept? You're the guy who played in the NFL, went to Harvard Business School, learned how the closed mahogany doors operate and what happens behind them, right? So you, you, the whole thing of I'm not just a player, I'm also this guy, is also you.
35:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I learned that it's horse [BLEEP].
35:32 Pablo Torre? What is?
35:34 Speaker 01 The distinction between the two that I thought existed and the insecurity that I had about the intelligence and information and access and ability of people on the other side of that mahogany door. It's like, I remember when we were looking for an executive director, when I was on the executive committee. I was certainly like more impressed with the guys who weren't former players because I believed that there was something over there that we needed.
36:15 Speaker 01 When ultimately, I don't think it's true. Like after being on every side of this and looking at it from every different way, that stuff is not. And again, maybe if we were trying to like run a soft drink company or we wanted to be an accounting firm, yeah. But that's not what we're doing. That's not what we're doing.
36:41 Speaker 03 Dominique, what you're saying is that unions, because of their social sort of foundation, that you believe that they should be run as such, which means they wouldn't be business forward. But what's happening in every players' union is the opposite, where it is becoming business forward.
36:58 Speaker 01 I think sometimes things seem obvious to you that aren't obvious to other people. So I try to walk through this in a way that I think makes it more clear in my thinking. And then you can take, cut it down. If EB is, what defines success for a players' union? It's the result of the CBA negotiations, right? Is, I would say that's kind of the report card. That's the game that you can win or lose. How do you win that game? Is through court cases or public pressure? Or ultimately work stoppage from either sides? Strike or lockout? All right, that's the way you can win this.
37:43 Speaker 01 So how do the players have any power in that? If we win in court? It's the result of a win in court is not going to be that we win the negotiations. It's a win in court, right? It's there's nothing in court that's going. There's no way we can take them to court and get them to give us 75% of revenue. Like, that's not it, right? If we win in court of public opinion, the fans can't force them to pay us. And the fans aren't going to stop watching. We can't really get what we want from there. If we threaten the future of the game, threaten the the public's relationship to the game, threaten their immediate revenue, we can get it. That is the only source of power that we actually have.
38:28 Speaker 01 So in in that, then all your choices, and maybe this is a simplified look for for me, is like, I think about these things in like a priority stack. And I think the league does also. So I would say that the first bar that I have to clear before I make any other decisions for every decision, does this get us closer to being able to extract the things that we want? If the answer is yes, then I can go now to something else. And that's my point is when I was searching for an executive director and before I like lived the rest of my post NFL life, I was like, oh, the problem is we don't got good enough lawyers.
39:11 Speaker 01 It's not true because we're never going to out lawyer them like or the problem is our we we don't we don't win in a court of public opinion. The fans turn on our players at the last minute and the players crumble as a result of it. We gotta win in a court of public opinion. That don't matter. We never gonna win that. All these, all these networks and streaming services, they don't want a relationship with the players. They want to make the NFL happy. It's a dumb place for us to fight. So I guess that's my only point is when we are making these decisions, it's easy for or it was, I'll speak for myself. When I was there, it's easy for me to be like, oh, but. You just don't understand what's happening over there.
39:53 Speaker 01 Once you get over there, you realize that it ain't nothing special happening over there. They're not smarter than us. They're not dumber than us. And I also think we make the mistake of, we've made the mistake in the past of trying to like, over vilify the owners of teams in the NFL. Cause it's not true either. Like, they are people just like us. They're doing what's in their best interests. They have a lot of power that they wield in ways that we don't like. But sometimes, you like them. They're cool. Hanging out with them is fine. I think we make the mistake of trying to be like, hey, these guys are so terrible. We hate them so much. They hate you. They don't care about you. And then our players get around them and they're like, oh, well, actually, that's not who they are. I think that NFL has a priority stack also.
40:36 Speaker 01 The top thing on a priority stack is how much money they can put in their pocket. If it doesn't affect their money, then, oh yeah, they do care about players. They don't like not care about players. They just care about money more.
40:49 Speaker 03 And of course, you have the same priority. You, meaning capital Y, the union. They're trying to make as much money as possible too. So actually,
40:59 Speaker 03 that's where you and I will differ. I mean, we can debate this fact, but if the players ever had a goal that did not include more compensation, there would never be tough negotiations.
41:13 Speaker 01 It is two different conversations though. Like, I think our goal is to generate enough power to be able to negotiate for the value that we think we deserve. I think the league's motivation is different. Like, they're built to, to make money. So it's slightly different. And I think that slight difference matters in how you build an organization, who you should have lead your organization, how you go into negotiations.
41:33 Speaker 03 How many employees think that they are valued properly by their employer? Just a show of hands. Do you, are you valued properly in your mind?
41:43 Pablo Torre? I think it'd be a bad, uh, bad negotiating strategy for me to say yes, I am valued.
41:47 Speaker 03 properly. Well, of course, but you actually think and I'll answer that because I've not come across an employee across my desk and maybe I just have the wrong employees over the, you know, decades I've been doing this where someone says, oh, God, that is the, thank you so much for that raise. Thanks for that bonus. I'm, you're overpaying me. This is so nice of you. I just have never heard anyone say that, nor have I said that as an employee. I've always wanted more and.
42:14 Pablo Torre? But isn't the point, though, that there should be this perpetual tension? That results in something like a market? And the, and the question is, and this is why it's kind of funny that I have been investing so much of my stupid life into caring about the NFLPA, is that on some level, absent a strategy like the one that Dominique is proposing, in which you're willing to fight the [bleep] Vietnam War of social movements in sports, and you're trying to do everything you can to drag people into a fight in which suddenly they're surprised by how much pain you can inflict, even though you have smaller resources, smaller numbers and all of that. Absent that, we are talking about a blowout. We're talking about a series of blowouts in which there is no tension that's
42:58 Pablo Torre? counterbalancing. It's the side with the far more resources blowing the [bleep] out of the organization that Dominique used to be a part of.
43:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think you did it. That's like normally Pablo, you use a lot of words to say things that could be said in fewer. That time you just like did a much better job of saying the thing that it took me to a lot of words to say. And yeah, that's it. Like, you can't win that way. There's only one way to win.
43:25 Speaker 03 What is the one way to win?
43:28 Speaker 01 The one way to win is to build a, an organization that is made up of players that is willing to withstand a lot of pain.
43:38 Speaker 03 Just haven't come across that in my existence because you guys get older and owners, as you said, have a longer horizon. So I just don't see the willingness and we can talk about baseball, obviously, or football, but the pain that you're talking about, you have to measure what the pleasure will be at the end. And if the pleasure is for people who are not you, then that's very hard equation.
44:04 Speaker 01 I mean, I, can I try a different analogy, maybe, which I think will resonate with everyone is like, for those of us who've like, have some affiliation to a school or something like that. If someone, if you want to wear your sweatshirt to the school that you went to, and someone walked up to you and said, "I'll give you a hundred dollars to never wear a sweatshirt to the school that you went to again." You'd probably be like, "Yeah, sure. That's fine. I'll take that money. I'll give you a hundred dollars every year that you don't wear that. I'll take that." I get it. If someone walked up to you and said,
44:45 Speaker 01 "You have to like divorce your wife and never talk to your family again. I'll give you a hundred dollars every year that you do that." You would say, "That's insane. Keep your money."
44:59 Speaker 03 That's what you'd say.
45:01 Pablo Torre? Tommy, this is, the glory of this show is that you guys are both lobbing hypotheticals that in some ways you've actually both lived.
45:13 Speaker 01 But I guess that's my, my point is there is, I get where we are right now. I see how what I am saying sounds absurd is expecting people to have this level of commitment.
45:26 Pablo Torre? Correct.
45:26 Speaker 01 To a union.
45:27 Pablo Torre? Yes.
45:28 Speaker 01 I know how it sounds absurd, but that's how they felt about the union when it was formed. That's how every union feels about the union. That's how every union that has any success feels about their union. And then you have enough success that people stop feeling that way about the union. And then things start heading in the other direction. Until they get so bad that everybody starts to feel like that again about the union. And then they're willing to sacrifice again for the union. I'm just saying, we can skip all that bullshit.
46:01 Speaker 03 It's like a marriage, doesn't it?
46:02 Pablo Torre? It actually sounds like a lyric from a song.
46:07 Pablo Torre? That comes to mind.
46:08 Speaker 03 Dreamgirls?
46:09 Pablo Torre? Mamma Mia, here I go again. My, my, how can I resist you?
46:16 Speaker 03 I can't resist you, Dominique. I can't quit you.
46:19 Speaker 01 I don't understand how that, those relate. I don't know.
46:24 Speaker 01 That was just a reach.
46:25 Pablo Torre? Yes, I've been brokenhearted, blue since the day we parted. Why, why did I ever let you go? Is this a song about a young woman looking for her father in the Greek Islands? Or Domonique Foxworth and his relationship with the NFLPA? It's hard to tell.
46:41 Speaker 01 No.
46:41 Pablo Torre? Hard to tell.
46:42 Speaker 01 But oh, that's terrible. Now, that was a terrible connection. You try, really tried to force that Mamma Mia thing.
46:47 Speaker 03 This is all being edited out, Dominique. Every word you say from this point forward is not in the show, so.
46:53 Speaker 01 He was Googling Mamma Mia lyrics, trying to find his connection for the last 30 minutes. And that was the best you could come up with. That's terrible.
46:59 Pablo Torre? In post, I'm gonna absolutely nail this.
47:05 Speaker 01 That's awful.
47:15 Pablo Torre? Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumanello. Our studio engineering is by RG Systems, our sound design by Andrew Bersick at NGW Post, digital strategy by Bailey Carlin and Andrew Northern, and our theme song, as always, by John Bravo. We'll talk to you next time.
47:50 Speaker 03 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work.
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