The Last Bromance: How Wrestling Corrupted the NBA Finals (PTFO Vault)

Did Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone blow the 1998 NBA Finals by promoting their pro-wrestling match... on the court?! Should there be an asterisk?! Is it time for Michael Jordan to relinquish the throne?! Correspondent Neil Punsalan enters a sports marketing wormhole to present Pablo with a box full of evidence, grill eyewitnesses and put to rest — once and for all — if The Mailman always rings twice. (This episode originally aired June 6, 2025.) • Subscribe to Pablo Torre Finds Out on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@PabloTorreFindsOut/ for more greatest hits • Subscribe to Pablo's newsletter https://pablo.show/ for exclusive access, documents and invites Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Pablo Torre?

  Hello, it's me, Pablo. So we've done, doing the math, 327 episodes of Pablo Torre Finds Out since we launched in September 2023, and it is the end of 2025, and I could not be prouder of our tiny, little, and extremely overworked newsroom that has created this bizarre sports news magazine show that is television, but also, obviously, an audio-first podcast, because we've punched above our weight, I think, especially this year. But the stuff that we did before, the previous, you know, hundreds of episodes, we have some

• 0:42Pablo Torre?

  favorites that we are now concerned that you maybe have not heard yet, or maybe don't realize are even better when you listen to it a second time. And so during the holiday break, we're bringing you our favorites from the PTFO Vault. And we also have a newsletter, by the way, www.pablo.show, where I'll be doing some stuff over the holiday break especially. Please subscribe and support our approach to independent sports journalism. But most of all, thank you. Thank you for making this show not just a weird experiment, but a community of people who support the kind of mission that we're on, to hold to account extraordinarily rich and powerful people while also taste-testing, you know, athlete-branded weed. We contain multitudes, as does our vault.

• 1:26Pablo Torre?

  Please enjoy. Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  We can do a double team, triple team, but the NWO is the new team of the future. Sweet.

• 1:43Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

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• 2:50Pablo Torre?

  This episode is brought to you by Apollo.io. A lot of the stories on this show start the same way. Something that looks pretty simple turns out to be a mess once you look under the hood. Well, it's no different in the sales world. Your team has a tool for finding prospects, a different tool for reaching out to them, and a third for keeping track of it all. On paper, that's a system. In practice, it's a salesperson spending the better part of the day copying names from one tab into another, and not much of it actually selling. Apollo.io is a platform that helps sales teams find the right buyers and reach out to them. It brings prospecting, outreach, and follow-up into one place instead of several separate tools. It's used by sales teams of all sizes,

• 3:34Pablo Torre?

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• 3:59Pablo Torre?

  We've had many strange people on this show. Yes. We've had an 86-year-old grandpa. Recently, we had a NASA scientist. We had a former federal prosecutor, a US senator, Action Bronson, and well beyond, and for legal reasons, I can't even say so much how beyond we tend to go. This, though, might be a new raising of the bar.

• 4:21Pablo Torre?

  For what we're about to unveil here for people?

• 4:24Speaker 04

  I'm really excited to make my case.

• 4:25Pablo Torre?

  Thank you for doing this, Neil Punsalan. An honor to have you on the show.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  I'm super excited. I came in with the idea of if I could just get one of the people that listen to your show, one of your devoted fan base, if I could get just one person to believe me, and I'm now at the point, I'm so excited, there's an electricity coursing through my body, I now firmly believe by the end of this, the NBA is gonna put a hit on me. I think they're coming after me.

• 4:48Pablo Torre?

  Okay, so to explain why it is that I'm not even going to push back on that right now, we gotta explain that this is a story fundamentally about two things that you love, and one of those things I don't know a lot about as much as I'm surrounded by it all the time now, and that thing is pro wrestling. This is a metaphor for a lot about our civilization, but in this case, it is concretely something that had collided, it turns out, with the NBA as recently as last year.

• 5:24Pablo Torre?

  This Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Halliburton thing?

• 5:30Speaker 04

  The WWE is smart enough to use people that love wrestling, and they've done it for years, and so you have this sports moment that helps elevate WWE, helps elevate the NBA as well, and it's a great piece of sports marketing.

• 5:47Pablo Torre?

  There was a steel chair in that. Again, that was an example of the NBA being brought into the ring.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 5:56Pablo Torre?

  This story, though, is the inverse.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  A hundred percent the inverse, and that's why it's so much more powerful, because it is not necessarily athletes just showing up at a professional wrestling event, it is professional wrestling bleeding into NBA games.

• 6:11Pablo Torre?

  So where in the history of the NBA Finals, which are happening now, by the way, in the present tense as we speak, are we?

• 6:20Speaker 04

  Here we go.

• 6:26Speaker 04

  The 98 Finals, obviously, Chicago Bulls, Utah Jazz, Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, and most importantly, Bob Costas and Roundball Rock.

• 6:39Pablo Torre?

  In my childhood memory.

• 6:42Speaker 05

  17 seconds from game seven, or from championship number six.

• 6:46Pablo Torre?

  It is Bob Costas saying, "Jordan, open."

• 6:51Speaker 05

  Chicago with the lead.

• 6:53Pablo Torre?

  And then we see it. We see the most famous shot in basketball history.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 6:56Pablo Torre?

  The most famous NBA Finals arguably ever.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  For certain.

• 7:00Pablo Torre?

  It's the second three-peat for Jordan's Bulls.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  That is the way everyone remembers the 98 Finals, but if you look at the 98 Finals now through a different lens, there was an apocryphal story in 1998 of Rodman skipping practice. I remembered hearing something about it as a kid, and then when I watched The Last Dance, you see it come to life and it's real.

• 7:22Speaker 06

  So Dennis Rodman ran off after game three. He took a detour from playing the Bulls to become a wrestler with Hulk Hogan.

• 7:33Pablo Torre?

  They literally have footage of Dennis Rodman running from the media.

• 7:37Speaker 07

  You know, like I said, like he's in a playoff game, I want to go wrestle. If I did this, I go over here. If I do that, I gotta go do this. You know, they gonna get to 100% when I'm on the court.

• 7:45Speaker 04

  This is, again, just another fantastic storyline within this 98 Finals. Rodman skipping practice, going to Auburn Hills where he used to play with the Pistons. Dennis Rodman is here at the Palace of Auburn Hills tonight for Nitro. Ends up hitting Diamond Dallas Page over the head with a chair. Oh my goodness, that was Rodman! And for me, became something that as I watched it, I went, wait a minute, who's doing the documentary on Rodman skipping that practice and becoming a professional wrestler? That's what I wanted to know more about.

• 8:17Pablo Torre?

  So I should say that our friend Jason Hare, director of The Last Dance, also has sat in the chair you're sitting at.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  Right.

• 8:23Pablo Torre?

  Dennis Rodman skipping practice was not the reason I wanted to do this with you because, again, it already been done.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Just for a moment, if I might have the floor. By the time I finish this episode, at worst, what I'm going to present you, you will see this as the greatest sports marketing moment you've ever seen. At best, I believe I'm putting my thumb on the scale and forever affecting the GOAT debate. Who's the greatest basketball player of all time? You're never going to see it the same way ever again.

• 9:16Pablo Torre?

  The unifying theory of modern American life now is that everything is pro wrestling. The presidency is wrestling.

• 9:33Pablo Torre?

  The US Department of Education is actually wrestling.

• 9:37Speaker 04

  CEO of World Wrestling Entertainment, Linda McMahon. Thank you.

• 9:49Pablo Torre?

  Even my beef with Bill Simmons, I am told, is wrestling.

• 9:56Pablo Torre?

  Pablo Torre is here. We're beefing. Yeah. Big beef. What camera can I look into just to stress how angry I am? It's such a beef. But with the Indiana Pacers now playing the Oklahoma City Thunder in the NBA Finals, what we wanted to do here was dive into what we believe to be the most underappreciated actual wrestling crossover in the history of sports. And to do it, I needed to give a little bit of work to Neil Punsalan, the only comedy writer in the world who has made television shows with both Norm MacDonald and also Marshawn Lynch. But the most crucial point on Neil's resume, even more than the fact that Neil happens

• 10:38Pablo Torre?

  to be half Filipino, is the fact that he has watched more pro wrestling than I ever have and ever will, particularly over the last 25 years. Because Neil's theory here about the 1998 NBA Finals turns out to not be fanfiction. This is gonna be a story about sports business and billionaires and backroom deals.

• 11:04Pablo Torre?

  And also chairs.

• 11:07Pablo Torre?

  Lots of chairs.

• 11:11Pablo Torre?

  So where our paths diverge as Filipino-Americans who remember like dial-up internet, is that I went to grade school with lots of wrestling fans, but never really became one myself. I'm actually shocked by the degree to which professional wrestling is relevant to my line of work now.

• 11:30Speaker 04

  Yes, totally.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  Professional wrestling is like silent film.

• 11:39Speaker 04

  You can turn off the audio and kind of follow along and it plays everywhere. It plays at every age, it plays in every country. It is these men who are putting their lives and their wellbeing on the line to act out this soap opera. It's just insanity. I love it.

• 11:54Pablo Torre?

  Let's get ready to suck it. What is a suck it gesture if not Charlie Chaplin?

• 12:09Speaker 04

  Can I go in a little bit into the history of wrestling here?

• 12:11Pablo Torre?

  I know so little about it, so please.

• 12:14Speaker 04

  Let me tell you a little bit about it. Pro wrestling used to be in regional factions. So there would be a Memphis team, there'd be a Georgia team. And all of the different little sort of families were spread out across the country. Coming up next on Superstation WTBS, it's exciting championship wrestling from Georgia.

• 12:35Speaker 04

  Vince McMahon buys the World Wrestling Federation from his father.

• 12:38Speaker 05

  Indeed, it's the dawning of a new era in this magnificent building, but yet an ending of another era.

• 12:44Speaker 04

  And then decides like Michael Corleone from The Godfather to roll up all of the factions and dominates the pro wrestling landscape for a decade plus.

• 12:54Speaker 05

  Thank you. It is indeed a pleasure to be associated with WTBS and we promise to bring you the greatest in professional wrestling entertainment in the world today. We will have this week, as a matter of fact, exclusive footage on a matchup involving the Iron Sheik who hails from Tehran, Iran. I'm from Tehran, Iran, 10,000 miles. Then from there, the man who claims to have the most impressive physique in all of professional wrestling, Jesse "The Body" Ventura.

• 13:20Speaker 07

  The most beautiful body in professional wrestling and I got something to talk about everywhere I've been going.

• 13:31Pablo Torre?

  So in other words, he rolls up these teams and makes a league.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  That's exactly right. One of the companies Vince buys is Georgia Championship Wrestling. There's a proviso in their contract that says the matches have to be recorded in Ted Turner's studio. Vince McMahon does not want to have to do that. He does not want that overhead.

• 13:51Pablo Torre?

  So Ted Turner, as in Turner Sports?

• 13:53Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 13:54Pablo Torre?

  By the way?

• 13:55Speaker 04

  Billionaire.

• 13:55Pablo Torre?

  When it comes to the basketball interweaving here, that's the boss of all of the stuff we know with Inside the NBA.

• 14:02Speaker 04

  That's right. So Vince doesn't want to pay that money. So he ends up selling the time slot back to Ted Turner. Ted Turner then takes that time slot and fills it with WCW World Championship Wrestling.

• 14:16Speaker 07

  World Championship Wrestling has always been one of our most popular programs. The Braves are becoming a winning team in baseball. CNN is the leader in world's news and information. And now WCW is about to dominate the globe in professional wrestling.

• 14:31Pablo Torre?

  So the guy, the billionaire who owns CNN, owns Turner Sports, all that stuff, he starts his own rival league?

• 14:37Speaker 04

  That's right. 88, he starts that league. In 95, they premiered a television show called WCW Nitro.

• 14:46Speaker 07

  100% live and ringside. Two hours of WCW Monday Nitro.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Huge moment in professional wrestling. Live television. That's a big gigantic part of this. 100% live, and it becomes a head-to-head feud with WWF's Monday Night Raw.

• 15:04Speaker 07

  But WWF is bigger, better, and better than ever on USA.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  It's called the Monday Night War.

• 15:17Pablo Torre?

  It's kind of like as if two Monday Night Footballs were competing.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Yes, perfect.

• 15:22Pablo Torre?

  And so I'm envisioning, right, Vince McMahon as one commissioner?

• 15:25Speaker 04

  Right.

• 15:26Pablo Torre?

  Who is his rival counterpart at WCW?

• 15:29Speaker 04

  A legend in the game. An absolute legend. Hall of Famer. His name is Eric Bischoff.

• 15:35Speaker 07

  My name is Eric Bischoff. I live in Cody, Wyoming, and in 1998, that was a minute ago, I was president of World Championship Wrestling.

• 15:44Speaker 04

  He was a janitor at an animal hospital. He actually got a sales job at WCW to start, and then ended up getting bumped up to be on camera because the announcer that WCW had got arrested.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  Welcome back to TBS. I'm Eric Bischoff, and this is a WCW magazine.

• 16:02Pablo Torre?

  We could spend, and others have, multi-part docu-series level time on any individual person in the story. We're just like glossing over, and Vince McMahon's here.

• 16:14Speaker 04

  Right. And again, the context here is that the WWF was the Corleone family. They dominated the space for a decade plus. WCW using the live broadcasts and adult themes and doing the suckets and like all that sort of pushing the envelope stuff. That's all Bischoff. Bischoff does that. WWF had stayed out of that water forever on purpose. Bischoff does it. WCW gets the ratings lead from WWF and holds it for 83 straight weeks.

• 16:43Speaker 07

  We had to convince our existing television partners, which was TBS and TNT at the time. Nobody within that community that we were doing business with really looked at WCW as a competitor to WWE. They were so far ahead of us, we were an afterthought. And I needed to change that perception within Madison Avenue, the advertising world, which is why I brought in Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan films mean mega profits, at the box office and on video. I brought in Hulk Hogan for media attention. And this summer, Hulk Hogan stars in the major theatrical release, Mr. Nanny. The agencies all of a sudden started looking at us differently

• 17:28Speaker 07

  because we had what they believed to be the biggest star in wrestling at the time. World Championship Wrestling presents.

• 17:35Speaker 07

  Gmania 94, the world tour.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  And in 96, Bischoff gets Hogan to turn heel.

• 17:43Pablo Torre?

  Even I had to reckon with this. The New World Order.

• 17:47Speaker 04

  The T-shirts.

• 17:48Pablo Torre?

  Was a black and white.

• 17:49Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:50Pablo Torre?

  Like villains and their big thing in a pay-per-view world.

• 17:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 17:56Pablo Torre?

  Was what?

• 17:57Speaker 04

  Hogan turns heel at a pay-per-view event called Bash at the Beach.

• 18:02Speaker 07

  Battle lines have been drawn for the war that will be heard around the world. It's WCW's Bash at the Beach.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  So WCW, 83 straight weeks, they've got control of professional wrestling. That forces the WWF to also go live and usher in their Attitude Era. That's Stone Cold, that's The Rock. They go adult-themed as well. First time in their company's history, they start doing that. And with the power of Vince and WWE, the brand and all of the wrestlers, they come back against WCW, but Eric Bischoff has an ace up his sleeve.

• 18:35Speaker 07

  I got a text message from Hulk Hogan saying, hey, call me ASAP 911. And he rarely ever, ever did that. So I, before I even got into the hotel, got on my cellphone and called Hulk. And he said, hey, I just hung up with Dennis Rodman and he really wants to get into wrestling. Wants to get involved. WWF at the time had already pitched him. I think Shane McMahon had reached out to Dennis. But Dennis wanted to work with Hulk. He didn't want to just work in wrestling. He wanted to work in wrestling with Hulk. And since Hulk was at WCW, that's where I got tagged in.

• 19:17Pablo Torre?

  So Dennis is here and as I imagine it, this is a real top-flight wrestling free agent.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  100%. Rodman dates Madonna in 94. He wears the wedding dress in 96. He kicks the cameraman in 97.

• 19:32Pablo Torre?

  So when does Dennis Rodman become serious about his other job?

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Beginning in 97. Rodman is out promoting Double Team, which is his movie with Jean-Claude Van Damme.

• 19:41Pablo Torre?

  Oh, I remember that vividly.

• 19:43Speaker 04

  He goes out to promote and ends up recording a promo with Hulk Hogan, announcing that he's joining NWO.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  We can do a double team, triple team, but the NWO is the new team of the future. Sweet.

• 19:58Pablo Torre?

  So the two timelines here, per wrestling on the one hand, the NBA and the Chicago Bulls on the other, they had just won their second straight title.

• 20:07Speaker 04

  That's right. That's exactly right.

• 20:09Pablo Torre?

  And Dennis Rodman in the other parallel timeline of wrestling is, what's he doing?

• 20:15Speaker 04

  Rodman appears in the 97 bash at the beach, and it is an unmitigated success. Huge success for the company.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  They immediately want to run it back, a lot like the Bulls do. They want to run it back and have Rodman join them for the 98 bash.

• 20:31Pablo Torre?

  Okay, here we are 98. But now, WCW, what are they planning to do, given that Dennis Rodman is trying to also sell this upcoming event?

• 20:44Speaker 04

  So strangely, Eric Bischoff turns to his wacky neighbor, Diamond Dallas Page.

• 20:51Pablo Torre?

  So and DDP, for those uninitiated.

• 20:53Speaker 04

  Okay, okay. Do you know DDP?

• 20:55Pablo Torre?

  I know, I know a couple of things about this man.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:59Pablo Torre?

  Including the fact that when it comes to silent film hand gestures, he's got

• 21:03Speaker 04

  The big one.

• 21:03Pablo Torre?

  An all-timer.

• 21:07Pablo Torre?

  What a phenomenal move by Diamond Dallas Page.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  The diamond cutter, a iconic hand gesture that he did with it. He sort of puts his hands, his two hands together.

• 21:21Pablo Torre?

  Thumb and index finger.

• 21:22Speaker 04

  Thumb and index fingers touching to create that diamond between his two hands. He points at the camera and then goes, bang!

• 21:29Pablo Torre?

  His blonde curls.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  Yes, those curls, those long curls.

• 21:33Pablo Torre?

  I mean, look.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  Covered in sweat.

• 21:35Pablo Torre?

  You're clearly psyched.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  When I call Diamond Dallas Page, Mr. Page, first off, thank you so much for doing this. It is an honor, gigantic fan.

• 21:46Speaker 07

  Oh, my pleasure, bro.

• 21:47Pablo Torre?

  Which is to say, you proceed to do some real investigative journalism.

• 21:52Speaker 04

  I'm shocked that you've let the fox in the hen house and allowed me to waste so much of your time with this. But I'm so thrilled. Diamond Dallas Page tells me the best story about how he met Karl Malone.

• 22:06Speaker 07

  I've seen Karl. On the Tonight Show. You know, heard him talk about like, I'm not a WWF fan, I'm a WCW fan. I heard him say, you know, those guys are my favorites. And I was like, boy, that was cool of him to say. Then I was doing a signing in Houston. And they said, you want to go see the Houston Rockets game? I was like, who they playing? He said, they're playing the Jazz. I was like, awesome. Yeah, I'm a Malone. I'm more of a fan of players as opposed to teams. So they they were up like 25. So Carl's on the bench. And it's me, one of my best friends, his name is Ross, and it's at a timeout and Carl's like, you know, looking up in the stands.

• 22:50Speaker 07

  And then he just throws up the diamond cutter sign. And Ross loses his mind. He's like, oh, my God, oh, my God. He's reaching for his camera. But by the time he gets the camera up, he's sitting down and the quarter's on. And he says, uh, he says, oh, my God, you got to get him to do that again. And I said, bro, I don't know him. He goes, he knows you.

• 23:17Speaker 07

  So, uh, afterwards, Carl had sat, we, you know, got to the next break and I pointed, you know, we're only like 20 rows up, so we're not that far from him. And I go boom, and then I put my arms like, hey, you know, and he's like, threw it up again. So we got a picture of that. But then one of the guys came up to us for the end of the game and said, hey, Carl, love you guys to come backstage. So we got passes for me and my boys. And then we went back there. And at that point, someone walks up and goes, hey, Carl's outside. So I look outside, I'm like, hey, man, he gave me a big hug. And we talked for about 10 minutes. And I said to him, if you ever want to do anything, you got my number, call me and let me know.

• 24:01Pablo Torre?

  So what I'm learning from your, you know, Make-A-Wish interview, Neil, is that Karl Malone loves pro wrestling just like you.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  That's right. Diamond Dallas Page has said on the record, Karl Malone did not dream of becoming a basketball player. He dreamed of becoming a professional wrestler. He's from a small town Louisiana, born on a farm, youngest of nine children. He watched all those small regional wrestling encampments that I talked about earlier. Mom would drive them four hours on I-20 to the sportatorium in Dallas to watch professional wrestling. Huge fan.

• 24:30Pablo Torre?

  And I reiterate, another character worthy of a, another separate investigation.

• 24:35Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 24:36Pablo Torre?

  Like, I don't even have time to get into Karl Malone's actual rap sheet.

• 24:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 24:41Pablo Torre?

  I don't.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  DDP and Karl Malone hang out at the 98 All-Star Game, and then throughout the back half of the season, DDP is going to Karl Malone's house.

• 24:50Pablo Torre?

  Which is...

• 24:51Speaker 04

  It's like, DDP sort of compared it to like a giant Cabela's. You know that like humongous outdoor store and the taxidermy everywhere?

• 25:00Speaker 07

  He shot and killed everything. He had the biggest elk, the biggest moose. He had a bear that was 12 feet tall. I mean...

• 25:08Speaker 04

  He said it was glorious and every like eight-year-old boy's dream to have a house like that.

• 25:12Pablo Torre?

  And so now we're in the Western Conference Finals.

• 25:15Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 25:16Pablo Torre?

  In 1998.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  Utah Jazz, Los Angeles Lakers. It's a huge moment. Goes with Malone, Russell, Foster, Hornet's second, Stockton, Corrie, Fox, O'Neal, Jones, and Fisher for the Lakers. Game four, Utah looking for the sweep. And DDP is watching this Western Conference Finals live and gets a huge idea.

• 25:41Speaker 07

  They were playing the last game against LA, and they were about to sweep 4-0. And that's with Shaq. You know, it was a pretty big deal. But it's 3-0 at the time. And I just start thinking to myself, I'm gonna call him and see what he thinks it is. So I called them up and I said, "Listen, I know you've always wanted to be in wrestling. That was your goal as a kid." I said, "Rodman's coming in, so Hogan's gonna tag with him again." I said, "What if it was Dennis Rodman and Hulk Hogan against Diamond Dallas Page and Karl Malone?"

• 26:24Speaker 07

  He went, "Ooh." I said, "You got any beef with Rodman?" He said, "Honestly?" He said, "No." He said, "You know, most people don't know this. Back in the day, when you came into the NBA, there was summer camp. And I don't care what contract you came in with, you roomed with another guy. And my roommate was Rodman." And he said, "I thought he was, you know, a very nice guy and very down to earth." He goes, "I don't know who this guy is wearing the dresses to." He said, "But that guy that I know is a good dude,

• 27:09Speaker 07

  and I would have, I would have no problem with it." He said, "Well, let me, let me talk Derek Bush off about it. Let me, let me see where this goes."

• 27:21Pablo Torre?

  So just to, again, connect the parallel tracks here for a second. So Karl Malone in the NBA is so comfortable, up 3-0 over Shaq and the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, that he is making a side deal for another job that is going to be, I mean, the bash of the beach is coming up in July.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 27:41Pablo Torre?

  That's weeks after the NBA Finals.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  The Utah Jazz owner, as the sort of contract gets more and more real, as the opportunity becomes concrete, the Utah Jazz owner basically turns to Karl and says, "Please don't get hurt."

• 27:53Speaker 05

  Don't get hurt.

• 27:57Speaker 04

  That is from a wrestling podcast in 2020, which he joined by phone between alligator hunts.

• 28:02Speaker 05

  Alligator, like chump, chump, like big teeth, long head, dinosaurs, you know, them things, alligators, yeah.

• 28:07Pablo Torre?

  Naturally.

• 28:09Speaker 05

  I've always said, "If I ever had the opportunity to wrestle, I'm going to do it. My opportunity just happened to come."

• 28:19Pablo Torre?

  During the NBA Finals, uh, when we put the deal together. And what do you get paid if you're Dennis Rodman or Karl Malone to moonlight as a pro wrestler?

• 28:30Speaker 04

  They share an agent. That agent told me that Dennis is making at least a million dollars and Karl Malone's right there. That's a workable number for Eric Bischoff. He's got that in the budget, but that is a ton of money to put all into just talent.

• 28:44Speaker 07

  Everybody buried the idea. Eric Bischoff's spending way too much money. He's spending money like a drug sailor. He's blowing all Ted Turner's money. And I'm, here's what I'm thinking. And this is why being in the middle of the NBA season was so important to me. And why I was willing to take the $2 million risk that I did. First of all, I knew how much a full page ad in USA Today, inside the sports page, I knew exactly how much that cost because I purchased them. It was so much that I figured if I could get enough media coverage, free media, if I could tap into the sports media, particularly, you know, morning drives,

• 29:26Speaker 07

  and a little bit of coverage in print, I couldn't buy $2 million worth of press and get nearly what I got. That was my rationale. It was just a marketing decision.

• 29:38Pablo Torre?

  That's kind of like influencer math.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 29:41Pablo Torre?

  Like Eric Bischoff running WCW is saying, hey, I got $2 million Ted Turner to spend. I'm putting it all on my two stars.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 29:49Pablo Torre?

  And they're going to use their organic marketing.

• 29:52Speaker 04

  That's exactly right.

• 29:52Pablo Torre?

  Their platforms that they have elsewhere to sell this thing.

• 29:56Speaker 04

  That platform just happened to be the 1998 NBA playoffs.

• 30:02Speaker 07

  I wanted as much drama, emotion, and camera time isolated on Karl and Dennis as I could possibly get for free. When we were talking about, well, maybe, you know, if at this night show, we could get Karl and Dennis here, then maybe we could set up this confrontation in the parking lot.

• 30:26Speaker 07

  What this means usually with the new world order, especially with the white and the black. So we were talking about ideas like that that we could do on our show. And Diamond Dallas Page is with him. How about this? Somehow the conversation turned into, yeah, what if we could figure out a way to do something like that during an NBA game?

• 30:48Speaker 07

  Because it's one thing to do a stunt or an angle for our own audience, but what if we can do one for that audience to make our story even more exciting? And somehow it's just kind of a joke. And then it started getting a little more serious. I'm using their playoffs as a wrestling promotional stunt?

• 31:13Speaker 07

  It could be the end of my career.

• 31:16Speaker 07

  I can't ask for permission, so I'm gonna have to bank on forgiveness. I can probably pull this off.

• 31:25Speaker 04

  Part of the calculus behind this decision is Bischoff going, if I can get these two guys to hate each other on camera and feed his match, become the promotion for his pay-per-view days after the NBA Finals is over, then it all makes sense. How do you do that? How do you get that into the NBA Finals? You need two willing accomplices. And what if I said to you, these willing accomplices happen to be two lifelong wrestling fans, guys that grew up with each other, roomed with each other.

• 32:00Pablo Torre?

  Who share the same agent.

• 32:02Speaker 04

  Share the same agent.

• 32:04Speaker 07

  It wasn't all Machiavellian and a sinister way behind the scenes trying to figure this out. It wasn't that. It was just like, hey, if by chance you guys have an opportunity to kind of get in each other's face and make sure the cameras are around when you do, that would be awesome. Not asking you to do it. That's not it. Don't put it down on paper. Don't make a note to yourself. But just say it. Happens.

• 32:34Speaker 04

  This is all lined up for these two guys to bleed this into the 1998 NBA Finals.

• 32:41Speaker 07

  Once we kind of said, hey, if you can get away with it, it does lock up the game. Boom.

• 32:46Pablo Torre?

  Just a step back, though, for a second, Neil. Because you're talking about the most famous finals of my lifetime, which I do vividly remember.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 32:55Pablo Torre?

  The 98 Finals. You're telling me that they're turning it into actual pro wrestling in ways that I and the world never fully appreciated.

• 33:06Speaker 04

  That's exactly right. And the proof is in the pudding, Pablo. We're about to watch the 98 Finals together. It's gonna blow your mind.

• 33:21Pablo Torre?

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• 35:01Pablo Torre?

  So now I kind of feel like there's a trial happening of some kind. You're an attorney, you're bringing a case. And what I have learned from you already, what I found out is that the NBA Finals allegedly have been used as this marketing scheme for the 98 bash at the beach involving Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone, who have been in cahoots with Eric Bischoff, head of WCW, to effectively get some free promo in front of 72 million people.

• 35:27Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 35:28Pablo Torre?

  Watching this thing.

• 35:29Speaker 04

  We mentioned Rodman earlier skipping practice to go to be in WCW Nitro early on. That is presented as an isolated event. Oh, what a wild card Dennis Rodman is. He skips practice during games three and four of the NBA Finals to go be a professional wrestler for a night. That's just the beginning. That's where the whole thing starts. It goes so deep, you won't believe it. The WCW, World Championship Wrestling, successfully co-ops and infiltrates the 1998 NBA Finals and Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone are both complicit.

• 36:04Pablo Torre?

  So you are alleging, even more explicitly, that the integrity of the 98 Finals was actually compromised.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  Both of these men are working. Truly, we're gonna watch these clips and I believe by the end of it, you will 100% agree with me, these men are both working. They're putting on a professional wrestling promo.

• 36:23Pablo Torre?

  Which is to say they are working as NBA players while doing a work.

• 36:27Speaker 04

  Your Honor, I have some exhibits.

• 36:33Pablo Torre?

  So I think this is where we just gotta speed run through my childhood a bit.

• 36:36Speaker 04

  Right.

• 36:36Pablo Torre?

  Cause it's June 98, June 3rd, game one, I remember this.

• 36:45Pablo Torre?

  Utah wins at home by three points.

• 36:47Speaker 04

  That's exactly right. Game two, Chicago wins by five.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  So they're heading back to Chicago with the split. It's serious, it's tied 1-1.

• 36:58Pablo Torre?

  But game three.

• 37:04Pablo Torre?

  The Bulls win by 42. 42, right? I'm looking at the stats. So the Jazz have an NBA Finals record low 54 points, which is humiliating.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  The next day after that blowout, Rodman basically goes, well, I'm feeling pretty good, I'm gonna head out of here and go up to Auburn Hills to be in WCW Nitro.

• 37:28Pablo Torre?

  So this is him skipping the practice as depicted briefly in the last dance.

• 37:32Speaker 04

  The entire media focuses on how Rodman could possibly leave and skip NBA practice. Phil Jackson is telling the media that Rodman is gone.

• 37:44Pablo Torre?

  No, he's only taking your focus away from the finals, not ours. Yeah, he had been fined a combined $20,000 by the NBA and the Bulls and...

• 37:53Speaker 04

  Rodman comes back in game four the next day and probably has his best game of the final.

• 37:58Speaker 07

  What the hell, you know, this is all about putting your balls on the line and shoot the basketball, you know? So I did it. I think it's just due because all the things have been happening to me last couple of days.

• 38:07Pablo Torre?

  Dennis Rodman is, I mean, based on his performance in game four, is actually, to his credit, saying, "Look, I'm basically performing at 100%."

• 38:16Speaker 01

  They gonna get to 100% when I'm on the court.

• 38:18Speaker 04

  Rodman is, in effect, doing those two jobs at once. And I think the context here is important to remember. The Bulls are now up 3-1. I believe the Bulls think they're going to win the title. In some of their minds, I'm pretty sure that, you know, they think they should be swept by now, you know, four games to zero. And I also think that Utah believes they're not going to win the title. I think my concern is people don't start making plans for summer already. Which would allow both Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone to go, "Why don't we start working on this professional wrestling thing that we both love?"

• 39:00Pablo Torre?

  So now the two timelines have converged.

• 39:03Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 39:04Pablo Torre?

  They have crashed into each other at the 98 finals. And I do recall in my mind's eye, as I'm 12 years old, that it is Bob Costas taking us to game five.

• 39:15Speaker 05

  And if it all ends tonight, he will leave with that rarest of athletic distinctions. He will leave without ever having relinquished his position as the greatest player in the game.

• 39:32Speaker 04

  Now I've asserted that WCW has

• 39:35Pablo Torre?

  I have goosebumps, by the way.

• 39:36Speaker 04

  co-opted and infiltrated the NBA Finals. This is the proof. Your Honor, may I present to you Exhibit A.

• 39:44Speaker 05

  They swing it over to Harper. He misses off the baseline and Morris takes the rebound.

• 39:49Speaker 04

  Malone and Rodman get tangled up.

• 39:52Speaker 05

  As Rodman and Malone were entangled.

• 39:54Speaker 04

  Malone sort of gooses Dennis Rodman, picks him up by a short, throws him out of bounds. Rodman tries to get past him and Malone brazenly trips him here.

• 40:04Pablo Torre?

  But Neil, we both know 90's basketball was different. They were built different. It's physical. We've seen stuff like that before.

• 40:11Speaker 04

  You're right. However, may I present to you Exhibit B, 60 seconds later. The breakout from Karl Malone. He dunks it here on Rodman and watch this. Bang. You'll see it here on the replay. I don't know if that's a technical foul. However, the referees right now are trying to say, hey, we got Malone and Rodman right there. We're not gonna let it get out of hand. And that's the point. Karl Malone knows the camera is on me after I score. And he gets the broadcast talking about this feud between these two guys. That's the whole point.

• 40:45Pablo Torre?

  They're up to something.

• 40:46Speaker 04

  It's exactly what Bischoff wanted.

• 40:48Pablo Torre?

  It is funny that the Jazz do win that game.

• 40:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:51Pablo Torre?

  Right? They win game five, so they're down three to two, which means the series isn't over.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  And you'd think because of that, you think that those two guys might go, well, maybe we should turn down the pro wrestling promo work, but it's exactly the opposite. They turn it up during game six.

• 41:09Pablo Torre?

  I have a feeling there's another clip.

• 41:11Speaker 04

  Your Honor, Exhibit C. You watch Malone and Rodman battling under the boards. This is like a virtual recreation of the game five clip you just saw. Ron Harper again misses the shot on the baseline. Malone and Rodman battle for the rebound. And this time it's Rodman who trips Malone. I think they're starting to understand the formula that when we get tied up, the cameras will be on us and if we were to cede this rivalry, to promote this match, it would be in one of these tie-ups, one of these moments that can be camera time for the two of us to mix it up.

• 41:44Pablo Torre?

  It does seem that tripping is in their move set.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  And that's the foundation. It's about to pick up steam and it does so with Exhibit D, ass slaps.

• 41:54Speaker 05

  Watch the by-play here between Malone and Rodman. A sign of respect, actually, it appeared to me.

• 42:01Pablo Torre?

  Okay, well, Bob Costas, voice of journalistic color commentary, seems to be unconvinced. This is sportsmanship to Mr. Costas.

• 42:12Speaker 04

  Bob Costas is falling for it. He's falling for it in that moment. And it's the reason why I had to bring in an expert witness. I'd like to call to the stand.

• 42:20Pablo Torre?

  Wait, who are you now bringing into our courtroom?

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Former Chicago Bull, three-time NBA champion, Bill Wennington. Let me be the first to congratulate you on the 1998 NBA championship. Congratulations. Well, thank you very much. It was a lot of fun and, you know, since I left the Bulls, they haven't won another championship. I took him this theory. I showed him these clips. I needed to get his take on this as an eyewitness.

• 42:52Speaker 04

  I have a couple pointed questions. Let's show those butt-slapping clips.

• 42:56Speaker 05

  A sign of respect, actually, it appeared to me.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  Now, do you think that is, do you think they're showing a sign of respect? Do you think they're screwing with each other? Is Bob Costas getting played? I think Bob Costas is just trying to be proper.

• 43:12Speaker 04

  But also, you're both smart enough to understand that they're not going to get thrown out of the game or technically they're not going to have a fight, an all-out brawl.

• 43:20Pablo Torre?

  So, for those not watching YouTube, which you really should be at this point, Bill Wennington has an incredible handlebar mustache. He looks like a pro wrestler.

• 43:26Speaker 04

  Fantastic, yeah.

• 43:27Pablo Torre?

  But to me, right, like, it's hard to discern Rodman being a wrestler from Rodman just being Rodman.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  And I turned the screws on Bill for that reason.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  Do you believe that is professional wrestling bleeding into the 1998 NBA Finals, Game Six? I want to say yes, but I want to say no.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  I think he's playing along the fact that, you know what, hey, I'm not going to let you outshow me. I mean, they're both smart businessmen and it's just playing into it a little bit more. But you got to play into it and not lose focus.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  For them, it's marketing. And it helped them out for...

• 44:12Speaker 04

  You know, for lack of a better word, a big payday in July. So it was free advertising.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  He is admitting, he knows this is marketing for their professional wrestling match. This is a guy who plays for the Bulls at this game, telling me he wants to say yes. The only reason he also wants to say no is because I'm radioactive. This idea is gonna tear apart NBA fandom.

• 44:37Pablo Torre?

  But, but, but the idea that this is dispositively wrestling.

• 44:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 44:42Pablo Torre?

  I mean, again, we're watching basketball and imputing motive, sir.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  May I present to you Exhibit E.

• 44:52Speaker 04

  Now you'll watch here. Malone gets the ball in the post, wheels and scores. Seems like a normal basketball play until... What is that? What is that?

• 45:04Speaker 04

  What is that, Pablo?

• 45:05Pablo Torre?

  Okay, I admittedly did not remember that. He's throwing up the diamond cutter.

• 45:11Speaker 04

  The diamond cutter. In the finals during the game. And this is game six. The Jazz don't have control of this game yet.

• 45:19Pablo Torre?

  Again, for, for those not watching, you got to. But that also feels like it could just be him, you know, I don't know, making like a, an O or something with his hands.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  Perhaps it's just a one-time thing. Exhibit F, play it.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  Malone, this is the very next play.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  There it is again! Pablo, it's the very next play. They feed Malone in the post again. He wheels, hits the shot and throws it again because he's thinking, "If you didn't catch it the first time, I need to do it again." It's a concerted effort to make sure that wrestling is in the NBA Finals.

• 45:56Pablo Torre?

  Okay. So, game recognized game, uh, Neil. I, I did not know you'd have A, B, C, D, E, F. Yeah, six exhibits escalating to a level of proof that I, I, I, I, I must say, this has been persuasive so far.

• 46:18Speaker 04

  Pablo, I've not even gotten to the biggest one or my star witness.

• 46:23Pablo Torre?

  How many more exhibits are there?

• 46:39Pablo Torre?

  So Neil, where are we?

• 46:42Speaker 04

  This is the big one. Again, just to set the table. Game six, 98 finals. And again, 1998, there's like 15 things on television. 30-plus million people all watching this game. Yes. Game six, this is, you know, considered one of the great moments in Michael Jordan's career. This is the big moment. This is the moment that I remember as a kid. I'll never see it the same way. Exhibit G, the entanglement. You remember this place. Here they are, they're getting tied up. Yes.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  When people talk about NBA Finals moments where players get heated, they reference this moment.

• 47:20Pablo Torre?

  Seeing this with your previous six exhibits does make this hit different.

• 47:26Speaker 04

  Wait until you see the replay, Pablo.

• 47:29Speaker 05

  Paul Malone, regrettably, are scheduled to wrestle in one of those bogus events next month. Why Malone wants to lower himself to that is anyone's guess. And Rodman apparently wants to start the wrestling now.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  When I was a kid and I watched that play, I was like, oh my God, these guys hate each other. Which is exactly what Bishop wanted, so I'd buy the pay-per-view.

• 47:48Pablo Torre?

  And I can also just tell how disappointed the voice of gravitas, Bob Costas is as he sits courtside.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  Which is why I had to make another call.

• 47:59Speaker 07

  So is Pablo in on this, or is it just the two of us?

• 48:02Speaker 04

  Just the two of us for now, and then these clips. This is me and Bob Costas in 2025. What do you remember about that moment? How do you see that moment now? Has it changed at all?

• 48:11Speaker 07

  Well, there's a backstory there.

• 48:19Speaker 07

  It used to be the shock grew out of the art. The shock grew out of Marvin Gaye and sexual healing, but that was art. The shock grew out of Elvis.

• 48:35Speaker 07

  The shock grew out of George Carlin and Richard Pryor, but they were brilliant and they were doing social commentary. But don't take my word for it, ask the president.

• 48:46Speaker 07

  I meant the president, we in trouble.

• 48:49Speaker 07

  Now we were living in a schlock celebrity culture, where the shock was the only thing. There was no content of value there. And that's what I saw as Dennis Rodman's celebrity. A kind of dopey Jerry Springer world, Kardashian world celebrity. And I said that many times, parenthetically, even during games. But I always gave him full credit.

• 49:19Speaker 05

  His tired freak show continues, but on the court, he brings unique talents.

• 49:24Speaker 07

  Not only as a unique player, but I had heard even then that he was a gentle soul, that he was generous, that he was kind to those he came across. And subsequently Dennis and I have had conversations, and I'm sure that if we had an opportunity to sit down and have dinner together, we'd find a lot of common ground. I don't dislike Dennis. I dislike that part of the culture, which now is so far down the road, there's no getting back. But I disliked that aspect. And I also disliked the fact that wrestling, even then, and this was before my interview with Vince McMahon on HBO. You want to let me finish here for a second, pal? Shut your mouth and let me answer the question, alright? I'll be happy to answer.

• 50:09Speaker 07

  But even then I could see that it had moved away from the kind of good-natured wrestling that I liked as a kid, and toward that sort of attitude era, that sort of crass, it's no longer tongue-in-cheek, it's no longer good-natured. So I'm thinking, why in the world would Karl Malone, not that Karl Malone is necessarily a paragon of virtue, but why would he want to get involved in that? So this wrestling match was pending between Rodman and Malone. And it's with that backdrop that I just laid out for you, that they become entangled. And it looked to me like that entanglement...

• 50:47Speaker 07

  Wasn't just a natural outcome of what can happen in the basketball game. They were trying to prolong it and kind of emphasize it because it drew attention to what was upcoming from which they both would profit. Now, in retrospect, I said they gotta call a flagrant here.

• 51:05Speaker 07

  They have to call a flagrant here. So probably I overstated my objection in that narrow instance, but my overall objection, I stand by 27 years later, I stand by.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  After the entanglement, the game broadcast, NBC cuts away, but The Last Dance had extra footage. Malone and Rodman start slapping each other's asses again. I tell you what, I love what I'm seeing, the battle between these two guys. But watch Rodman here. Watch Rodman's reaction.

• 51:40Pablo Torre?

  Oh, this is a different.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  Look at him, ooh.

• 51:44Speaker 04

  He's acting, he's pouring it on.

• 51:46Pablo Torre?

  Okay, so now I know that there are so many more ass laughs than I had anticipated.

• 51:51Speaker 04

  These men are guilty, Pablo.

• 51:53Pablo Torre?

  He's popping his hip, he has his elbow at a triangle, he is a cartoon character.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 51:59Pablo Torre?

  Gesturing unsubtly about his ass having been slapped by Karl Malone.

• 52:04Speaker 04

  These two men are guilty. They're guilty of promoting professional wrestling in one of the most iconic NBA finals ever, and Bob Costas isn't buying it anymore.

• 52:14Speaker 07

  Well, that clip captures what I was just about to say. I knew after they untangled from each other, I knew that there was no real animosity because they patted each other on the butt. You could tell it was all fake, but here's the thing. Why does that low-grade fakery find a place in something that is the highest grade of legitimate sports drama?

• 52:44Pablo Torre?

  But just to put the finest possible point on this, Neil, what you are alleging here is that Karl Malone was not giving 100% effort to win a game in the NBA Finals.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  I think the proof is in the pudding, but I also took this to Bob Costas. I just believe wholeheartedly that Karl Malone is not 100% dedicated to that basketball game. He is working a professional wrestling angle.

• 53:09Speaker 07

  My point is, guys can be aware, guys can give a nod, guys can have a laugh without being lost in another land. I just, there's no evidence here to me that either Rodman or Malone shortchanged the task at hand. But there is evidence that they were definitely trying to promote this, whatever you want to call it, in my view, trashy endeavor.

• 53:35Speaker 04

  Does that take away from game six at all to you? Does it take away from that moment at all to you?

• 53:40Speaker 07

  Well, that moment, I think was discordant, but the overall thing is so great. It's like, it's like saying that, does a hair out of place mean that Cindy Crawford isn't beautiful? I don't, I don't think so. So, no.

• 53:59Pablo Torre?

  As someone old enough to remember what Cindy Crawford means, I find Mr. Costas' argument also kind of persuasive, Neil.

• 54:06Speaker 04

  Let's go with that for just a moment.

• 54:10Speaker 04

  You believe Karl Malone is locked in? That's what you're saying? You believe that he's, he's not promoting wrestling? He's completely locked in in this game?

• 54:21Speaker 04

  Karl Malone looks super locked in in this moment, Pablo. They ran that play a couple of times prior. And Dennis and Malone have been fighting the all game.

• 54:31Speaker 05

  And Karl just totally forgot that I was on the weak side.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  He's asleep at the wheel, Pablo. Karl Malone's asleep at the wheel.

• 54:44Pablo Torre?

  You are, you are saying that this play, again, famous in The Last Dance and in life, Michael Jordan slapping the ball away in the play before he hits the game winner over Brian Russell.

• 54:56Speaker 07

  Jordan, open. Chicago with the lead.

• 55:01Pablo Torre?

  You're really connecting.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  A hundred percent.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  I guess they're going to Malone.

• 55:06Speaker 04

  Is he, is he asleep at the wheel?

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Although he's been having a little bit of a struggle this quarter.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  Looks that way to me.

• 55:13Pablo Torre?

  So your closing argument is Michael Jordan's closing shot.

• 55:16Speaker 04

  That's, that's not the case. My closing argument is exhibit H. You remember Jordan holding up the six fingers, but do you remember this?

• 55:31Speaker 04

  Dennis Rodman is promoting. They are working this.

• 55:35Pablo Torre?

  He's doing the D-Generation X suck it.

• 55:38Speaker 04

  It's funny how as you're, as a fan, you remember Jordan doing this and you don't remember that, but the second you see it, you go, of course, all these pieces fit. The puzzle pieces fit.

• 55:48Pablo Torre?

  I need to, I need to, I need to take a break. Can we go to break?

• 55:52Speaker 04

  And by the way, the prosecution rests.

• 56:04Speaker 04

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• 56:34Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else?

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh.

• 57:23Pablo Torre?

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• 57:45Pablo Torre?

  I followed you through the NBA Finals, which you've changed.

• 57:48Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 57:49Pablo Torre?

  I mean, truly have changed my understanding of.

• 57:51Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 57:52Pablo Torre?

  But the thing that they were promoting, just to close the loop here, right?

• 57:58Pablo Torre?

  How was the 98 bash at the beach?

• 58:00Speaker 04

  Not good, not great. The battle began on the court. A battle that was never settled. Now the time has come. It started in Utah. Finish it in San Diego. The war is on.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, baby. Rosalyn is going to take you out. NWO style, baby.

• 58:19Speaker 04

  It's Hogan and Rodman versus DDP and Malone at WCW NWO Bash at the Beach. Listen, most professional wrestling.

• 58:27Pablo Torre?

  They went through all of that trouble, Neil.

• 58:29Speaker 04

  Most professional wrestling matches with non-professional wrestlers, there's a ceiling there. They it can't be super great. Rodman spat on DDP.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  Wow, that was a class act.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  One you would expect. That was like a moment and Malone is legitimately picking dudes up and slamming them on the ground. He's a beast.

• 58:49Pablo Torre?

  He is very strong.

• 58:50Speaker 04

  So it was what it was. It rated very well. I believe it was the second highest rated WCW pay-per-view in its the company's history.

• 58:59Pablo Torre?

  I mean, Karl Malone, just like hulking out, by the way, wearing, I think those are jeans? Or maybe just like jean? I can't tell if those are jean pattern spandex tights or actual jeans, but he's shirtless. He at least looks the part.

• 59:13Speaker 04

  As the story goes, Rodman didn't want to take his shirt off because Karl Malone looked like a Greek god.

• 59:19Pablo Torre?

  Well, this this makes sense as well, actually. Now that I review this footage in retrospect. But yeah, uh, I guess it was worth it.

• 59:33Speaker 04

  Has been denied here. And now he's mad. And then Dennis Rodman goes off to film the movie Simon Says with Dane Cook.

• 59:42Pablo Torre?

  So just journalistically speaking, I should say the following. We here at Palpatour finds out, did try to contact Dennis Rodman, did try to contact Karl Malone. The Bulls and the Jazz could not find either of them. Rodman has a booking agency, has an apparel line, they didn't respond. Karl Malone has these car dealerships in Arkansas and Utah. Nothing from them. Their shared former agent that he spoke to, whom we brought to you earlier, nothing. And we also reached out to Hulk Hogan through his agent and attorney. And everybody is just in the wind, as they say.

• 1:00:15Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:00:16Pablo Torre?

  Clearly, there was not a desire to engage.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  I'm radioactive.

• 1:00:21Pablo Torre?

  With you, Neil, as I have realized what I've done here, which is to say, what did you find out today?

• 1:00:29Speaker 04

  What I found out is that to me, undoubtedly, without question, those two men are working a professional wrestling angle during the 1998 NBA Finals. And I want to say, to be clear, I am not telling anyone to strike it from the record books. I do believe it needs to be asterisked. I am a big believer.

• 1:00:47Pablo Torre?

  You're calling for an asterisk. You're calling for an ass play asterisk.

• 1:00:51Speaker 04

  Yes. If we're trying to decide something, I mentioned the greatest of all time.

• 1:00:56Pablo Torre?

  You're trying to asterisk Michael Jordan.

• 1:00:59Speaker 04

  This is what we're doing here. If you are trying to decide greatness, then you have to be detailed. You have to be willing to use an asterisk. I'm doing it right here. If the main tenet to the idea that Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever rests on the numbers of him having six championships. You go at that number. I am not the biggest Laker fan, I am the best Laker fan.

• 1:01:23Pablo Torre?

  Oh, Lord.

• 1:01:24Speaker 04

  And if my job is to put LeBron James, who is a Laker, as the greatest of all time, I'm going at title number six by saying that title has been delegitimized.

• 1:01:34Pablo Torre?

  I cannot stress enough how you have impugned your own objective credibility. Just as I was ready to cosign the case you have brought before this court. I am inclined to think that actually you've been disbarred. But I also feel like there should be some higher authority than me that gets to proclaim that officially.

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  I did take this theory to Bob Costas.

• 1:02:02Speaker 04

  If the center of that argument is that Michael Jordan won six titles, then I need to go at that number. And what I'm saying is that Michael Jordan's sixth title is been delegitimized by the fact that Karl Malone is professional wrestling and not playing NBA basketball. He's not concentrating on the finals. Delegitimize that sixth title. Jordan's at five, LeBron's at four. If he gets one more, he's tied. He's got the scoring title. LeBron James is the greatest player of all time. Your thoughts?

• 1:02:28Pablo Torre?

  I think that's one of the most inane arguments I've ever heard.

• 1:02:32Pablo Torre?

  Neil, thank you for your work on this episode.

• 1:02:37Speaker 04

  It's been a pleasure.

• 1:02:38Pablo Torre?

  May God have mercy on your soul.

• 1:02:51Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.

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