Public Confrontation, Winning as a Step-Dad, and Building Boundaries for Adult Kids | ASK ME ANYTHING

How do you become a better man, lead your family, and navigate life's toughest challenges? Ryan Michler and Kipp Sorensen explore the power of brotherhood, explaining how meaningful relationships create possibility, accountability, and growth. They answer five listener questions covering freezing during confrontation, leading as a stepfather, helping an adult child become independent, raising resilient children, and moving beyond a troubled past. Along the way, they discuss conflict resolution, personal responsibility, repentance, and the importance of taking action rather than seeking validation. Plus, learn how the Iron Council can help you build stronger connections and become the man you're meant to be. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - Episode Introduction and Opening 00:40 - Brotherhood, Purpose, and Meaningful Conversations 01:44 - Why Men Need a Band of Brothers 04:12 - Inspiration: From Motivation to Action 07:08 - The Power of Accountability and Connection 11:16 - Ideas, Growth, and the Value of Brotherhood 12:56 - Self-Determination: Autonomy, Mastery, and Relatedness 17:10 - Handling Confrontation and Protecting Your Family 21:32 - Preparing for Conflict Through Training 29:16 - Leading as a Stepfather 35:54 - Supporting Adult Children Without Enabling Them 43:25 - Raising Resilient and Grateful Children 47:11 - Moving Beyond Your Past and Reputation 48:17 - Why You Don't Need to Prove You've Changed 50:30 - Repentance, Making Amends, and Personal Growth 53:25 - Iron Council: Take Action Before the Year Ends Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Self-deprecation is amazing. You know, maybe we had some problems in the past, or you know, my reputation, or whatever. And I bump into you in the store and I'm like, oh Kip, like, oh, it's good to see you. You know, I, I just got back. I've been away for 20 years. I just got back, man. I was such a screw up when I was a kid. I'm so glad to be back and like, in a different headspace. That's so diffusing. Or if somebody says, um, I remember you. I'm just like, yeah, I remember me too. I was such a jerk back then. Self-deprecation is huge. It's so diffusing. And I promise, if you have enough of that, just lightness and casualness about it,

• 0:38Speaker 00

  that stuff goes away, man. Kip, what's up, man? So good to see you. Uh, man, we had a great Friday call in the Iron Council today. Like that was, that was awesome. Like it was kind of like a little bit off script. Uh, we had, we had a couple of guys talk about some issues that they're personally dealing with from PTSD to not being able to have a sense of, um, I don't know, a sense of meaning and purpose in life, directionless a little bit. So it was awesome. I love calls like that.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Testament of what the Iron Council is all about, man. I mean, we've said it for years, right? The, the power of the conversation that we get to have on our individual battle teams, as well as the conversations that we have on Friday afternoons are just, they're rejuvenating for me. Um, and they're about things that matter, right? And, you know, we know this about guys. It's like, how often do they have these kind of conversations? Um, and they don't, why? Because they're surrounding themselves typically around individuals that aren't like-minded, that are unwilling to have that same conversation. I think so, anyway. So it's really unfortunate.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  What do you think? Yeah, it is unfortunate. What do you think is the biggest benefit to not just the Iron Council, but having a good band of, of men around you? Now, I know a lot of guys will say, well, surround yourself with like-minded men, accountability. And that's all true, but like, what is the benefit of that? Like, let's go deeper. Why is accountability important? Why is being around like-minded men important? And what do you think is the biggest benefit of, of building, having, building, tapping into a band of brothers?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  I think it's two things primarily. I think the number one is possibility. Things become possible when you see it done. And sometimes when you read books, it's hard to relate, right? It's because it's like, well, I'm not Goggins. I, I wasn't a Navy SEAL. Like, how do I relate to that? But when I see someone similar to me, progressing in certain earlier areas, that creates possibility for me to consider for myself. So I think number one is possibility. I think the number two is that you're not alone in it.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Hold on, hold on. Before you get to number two. Slow it. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta work the angles a little bit here and like, keep people on the edge of their seats. Um, when you talk about possibility, would you say that's synonymous with hope? Or is that something different?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Hope. Yeah, it's hope.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  I love the relatability because a lot of the times we get, one of the, the common messages that I receive, and I'm gonna talk about it from a couple of different angles, is guys like, well, I just want to hear from regular guys. Well, you know what? You don't listen to regular guys. Okay, I'm sorry. Like, the statistics bear this out. If I, if I have, uh, you, you mentioned David Goggins. If I have David Goggins on, everybody will tune in 10 times that of, of Steven Schmoggins, who is also a Navy SEAL that you've never heard of before. So we gotta stop

• 3:59Speaker 00

  saying that, number one. Number two, I also get it. I understand. You want to have somebody who's relatable, somebody who's like you, somebody who's a little closer to what you're doing. So I, you know, I see both sides of it.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. Well, and, and one is inspiring, right? Their, their story might be more inspiring. And so I, I think it's a little bit different. But, but I don't, I don't know, man. Do you think inspiration causes change?

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Have you, any, okay. Anytime somebody wants to change in their life, they need to be inspired to change.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't word that right. How do I say this?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  I don't know. Like, I, I don't know if it's the same level. Um, I think there, maybe there's levels of inspiration, right? And we might be inspired by, by talking heads, by influencers, by these people that have done great stuff. It, it might be hard to see what's possible, because there's such a, we perceive a, a gap between what they've accomplished versus where we're at. And so maybe the inspiration isn't as sticky, as if I'm inspired by someone that is more relatable than me. I, I don't know. Like, it's interesting. It's interesting.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  It doesn't matter what you do. Somebody's not going to resonate with it. So I'll give you an example. Um, we have David Goggins on the podcast, let's say, or I, I don't care. Whoever you're inspired by, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Huberman, Jocko Willink, Matthew McConaughey. I mean, these are guys we've had on the podcast. So on one hand, a guy might be deeply inspired by what Goggins has to say. And another man might say, well, I don't like this guy. And one guy might be inspired by somebody who they've never even heard of, or they might be inspired by

• 6:10Speaker 00

  watching a movie. And, and that's a fictional character. And, you know, it, it, it drives them towards, towards action, you know? So like, I'm not going to say what's going to be best for everybody, or that everybody has to be inspired by certain things. We're all inspired by different things. If you watch a movie, and you feel inspired to live your life better, awesome. Awesome. If, if you listen to David Goggins, and you know, like, that's a guy who's going to inspire you, awesome. If you need somebody who's closer to where you're at, like me, or you, Kip, I mean, we're average guys, ordinary guys, and that inspires you just to be a little better? Cool.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  I'm good with that. That, that's great. I, I don't care how you're inspired. But ultimately, I think to your point is, inspiration's not enough. Like, I could listen to a song on the radio and be like, oh, it's cool. I feel good. And then get home and not do anything. So ultimately, it's about what you do with it.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Which I think brings to the second thing that you asked, um, or what the other item was that I think makes kind of a brotherhood or the Iron Council effective. And I do think possibility is still, I'd still hold on to that. I think the, the other part is not being alone in it. Um, and, and I think part of that is like, we, because of relationships, there's a sense of care that changes accountability. Accountability is so different when it's coming from someone that you don't have an established relationship with, where you don't know if they care about you as an individual or not. Um, our ability to speak into each other drastically

• 7:55Speaker 01

  changes, uh, when there's care. Um, and, and so I think it's that element of it. I mean, you know, you're using example of like, you know, Goggins, right? Or Jordan Peterson. How many guys are inspired maybe by those individuals? And then when it came down to having a really, um, open conversation, they would hold back. And they wouldn't share any of the things that they're struggling with those individuals. Why? Because they're so care, they're so concerned about what that person thinks of them, that they would not even open up to allow the conversation probably be as effective. And maybe that's one of the benefits that we get to have in the Iron Council is you're with like-minded guys, which means that these guys aren't, um, that you, that

• 8:40Speaker 01

  you might be more willing to, to realize that you guys are in similar places. You might be more authentic and open with one another, which allows a better connection, a better relationship, and ultimately, the ability for men to speak into each other. And to know that when you're struggling, you're not alone in the struggle. And that someone can relate to it. Um, and, and that someone probably has gone before you and have, have, uh, dealt with those similar things. And then it kind of goes back to that possibility. It's like, now all of a sudden, it's like, there's a way out. There's some hope, right? To, to what I'm dealing with.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I like that. I, I think that makes a ton of sense. Um, I'm constantly thinking about like, what is it that men would be looking for? What is it that, how, how can we serve these guys?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  I like, I like that. It's, it's like, okay, well, I, if you're not alone, and I can see, Kip, let's say I relate with you, and I do, you know, we're, we're similar in a lot of ways, you know, we're similar ages, similar demographic, uh, similar goals and dreams and desires for our future. And if I can see that somebody like you that I'm inspired by, that I'm deeply connected with, is also wrestling with, at the end of the day, when he puts his head on his pillow, the same things I am, like, oh, wait. Yeah, Kip's wrestling with struggles in the relationship, or concerns about his kids, or financial situations, or health situations. Oh, wait. So

• 10:14Speaker 00

  if he's struggling with that, and he's doing well, and I'm still inspired by him, it's okay for me to struggle with that. And maybe I can work through this. Maybe I can improve. Maybe I can get better. That's a good point. I, again, I just want to like, drill deeper, because when people say, oh, be around like-minded men, that's not, that's a tactic. Get around like-minded men. That's a tactic. But that isn't the, that isn't the equation. That isn't the resolution. There's something about it deeper that we as men need to think about. Everybody will say, oh, you just need to be around like-minded men. Why? Why? Like, my, my, my youngest son, the other day,

• 10:57Speaker 00

  he kept saying that. He's like, why? And I'd answer, he's like, why? I'm like, dude, stop effing playing the why game with me. And also, good. Because we should dive deeper.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  All right, let's get into questions.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  What would you add to the list?

• 11:18Speaker 00

  You said possibility.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  And you said,

• 11:26Speaker 00

  just like, like not, not alone, right? So I would say,

• 11:33Speaker 00

  maybe it isn't possibility, but I would say ideas. For me, I'm an idea guy. And if I can get around three, four, five, six, eight hundred men and share things. I mean, the sky's the limit on the opportunities and potential and new information I have. Like, I'm always interested. I'm very, I'm a curious person. So for me, what I naturally gravitate towards is what can I learn? So for me, it's these guys are all in similar, on similar paths. They're all moving in a similar direction. So what can you teach me that I did not have access to? Or what opportunities or what connections can you make for me?

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Or, you know, I had a good call with, I have a team leader. I'm on a battle team. I have a team leader. So I, the Iron Council is something we created. And yet I'm a participant of it. And I got off the phone with my team leader today and like, I love hearing from him. You know, he's, he's in Australia. He, he runs a very successful martial arts studio.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  I, I want to know, I want to know what he's doing. I'm curious about what's working, what's not working so that I can implement things that are working in my life and remove things that aren't in, in my life. So I, I just think the access to information is the most important thing for me personally.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You know, in, in hindsight, I think, I think we're on to something, or at least we can even relate what we're talking about to some frameworks. I mean, if you look at self determination theory, self determination theories suggests that there's three things that someone needs to have in place to be self determined or intrinsically motivated on their own, where they don't need outside motivation. And the three things are autonomy, this feeling of it's through choice, right? In my agency that I own my world, right? That there's some element of control that I take over. The second is to your point is mastery and growth. That there's an opportunity for growth and improvement.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  And the last one, which now I'd kind of re, rephrase or use a different word to describe my second point. It's relatedness. And I think that's kind of what we're talking about is there's relatingness of not being alone. But there's relatedness of being able to relate my difficulty through what other people are also experiencing. And, and there's obviously a sense of not being alone in it. So anyhow, it's, it's a good, I think we're on to something.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  So, and we will get to questions, guys. At some point.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Don't worry. We'll hurry. Sorry.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Self determination. Yep. Agreed. Like, we need to be able to be the masters of our own fate. If I'm going to use that poem.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  That's crucial. That's, that, my battle team is Invictus. I'm the master of my fate. I'm the captain of my soul. So that's the team I'm on. I really like the concept of mastery, not perfection, but mastery. Like, if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it to the nth degree. You know, and that, that's why, if you're following on YouTube, that's why we created this studio. It wasn't where I wanted to be, so we elevate. I've got a call here in about 40 minutes with a videographer. And he's helping me get things set up so I can make sure my shots are just right and I have the right cameras and equipment. Because mastery is important to me. Related list, related, relatedness. Is that what you said? Relatedness?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  That doesn't go ahead.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, go ahead. No, it's all right. Go ahead.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  That one doesn't, that one doesn't resonate with me as much.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Personally. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't feel like I need that. And, and maybe that's because,

• 15:35Speaker 00

  well, a couple of things. Number one, this is going to sound really arrogant, but it is what it is. Like, I've always felt like there's something,

• 15:46Speaker 00

  it's going to sound very egotistical. But I want to be honest, there's just something about me that is different from common, expected, average, ordinary, et cetera. I've always felt that about myself. And yeah, I know that might come across as arrogant and egotistical. Maybe it is. I don't really want to relate with most people.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  I would much rather find guys succeeding at the highest level and not relate with them, but be inspired by and build connections with them. So that one doesn't resonate as much with me. Not to say it won't with other people. I've never really cared about relating with

• 16:33Speaker 00

  people. I, I don't know how, I don't know how to say that. Does that even make any sense to you?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  No, I think it makes sense. And, and maybe, you know, there's ebbs and flows to those areas of our lives. Like when we're in the struggle, you know, related, being relatable or being able to relate to others and connection becomes even more critical. Right? When we're maybe on a path where we're a little bit sure of ourselves and things are going well, maybe not as important. Right? And it probably ebbs and flows depending on the season of life.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair. Interesting. All right. Well, cool. Well, let's get to some questions and we'll try to crank through as many as we can and we'll be a little bit

• 17:13Speaker 00

  less long winded.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Okay, sounds good. Derek Haslam. A few weeks ago, a guy got aggressive with my wife in a grocery store parking lot. I froze. I didn't say a word and she handled it herself. Nothing happened, but I haven't been able to shake it. I talk a lot about protecting my family and, and when it mattered, I didn't. How do I come back from that? And how do I make sure it doesn't happen again?

• 17:39Speaker 00

  And the repentance process is amazing. Not only is it a spiritual process, it's a physiological process. It's a, it's a temporal, they'll say it that way. It's a temporal process. Repentance process admits that you did wrong, which you're admitting right now.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  Number two is to rectify the situation, which you may or may not have done. I'll explain what that means in a second. And then number three is to commit to changing your behavior. That is the repentance process. Accept, make amends, commit to change. That's it. So you've already accepted it. You did wrong. You didn't do, you didn't handle yourself correctly. You should have done differently. That's number one. Number two, bro, you let your wife down. I don't know how else to say it. Like, you let her down. You let her handle what you should have handled. And that's a problem. So the repentance process says you owe her an apology.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Hey babe, you know what? Like, that thing we had happen a week or two ago. I want to tell you, I'm sorry. I did not handle that correctly. I acknowledge and recognize that I didn't handle it correctly. And moving forward, here's what I'll do. So that's the, that's the rectifying situation. And then part number three, commit to change. This is one thing that guys need to do more of.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  We as men are to anticipate problems.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  It's the reason why when I sit down at a restaurant with the woman that I'm dating,

• 19:21Speaker 00

  I sit in the proper place.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  It's the reason why when we walk down the side of the road, I walk on the outside.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  It's the reason why I pick good places to go. I would never take her to a bar. Never. Why would I take the woman I'm responsible for to a bar with a bunch of drunk dudes? I would never do that.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  Because we are as men to anticipate what could potentially be a threat. And that's a good thing. Because what it does is it acknowledges that there's threats out there to us, to our people, to the, to our, our, our wife or our children or the people responsible for. And just don't put yourself in those environments.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  So you may not have anticipated what you would do if that situation arose. And that's the problem. As mildly as I can put it, you didn't anticipate it. So when it happened, you weren't ready for it.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  This is like, people make fun of this. And there was like several months ago, or maybe even a year ago, there was this whole thing of like, men, it was a meme, but it was like, men thinking about conquering in the Roman Empire. Yeah, right. That's what you should be thinking about. It's men. And you know what women should be thinking about? Being whisked away by the wholesome righteous prince who had true love's first kiss. But she can't do that if you're not the type of man that you're supposed to be. So yeah, you should anticipate problems. You should expect problems. You should be prepared for problems.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  And hopefully they never come up. I don't, I don't want to shoot anybody. I don't want to get into physical altercation, but I do want to be prepared if it happens. So you have to go through the temporal repentance process. You already did number one. I don't know if you've done number two, which is apologize to her because you messed up. And number three is what will I do differently moving forward?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Ryan, what advice would you give? Cause like, I think sometimes we'll fall into this where it's like, oh, man, I should have, I should have, I should have. But what Derek and some of us don't address is why did he freeze up? What was the barrier that caused the freeze up? And, and just saying, oh, next time, sometimes isn't enough because all of a sudden that shows up again. And then he's like, oh, you know what I mean? And it's like, okay, where's the training in this? So like in this kind of, and it's kind of a unique scenario. I don't know. I'll let you answer the question. But what advice would you give Derek to be like dealing with conflict? In the, because I'm assuming that's what this is. It's this uneasy feeling of conflict.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  When he says aggressive with his wife, I'm assuming he wasn't like attacking her. So now we're just talking about verbal aggression, right? And confrontation. What advice would you give him in regards to learning to get comfortable in that space? So then that way, when this does come up, it's not this fight and flight kind of mentality. It's something that he can step into a little.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, you bring up a good point because a lot of guys will say, well, next time I'm going to be a badass. It's like, are you though? Like if you haven't done anything different, you probably won't. So the, the, the real issue is, are you actually preparing for it? Are you training for it? The quote, it's a stoic quote, but it's been massaged and manipulated and tweaked a little bit. But, and I can't even remember who said it. Maybe we can look it up, but it's, uh, we don't, we don't rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training. And that's, that's a quote, thousands and thousands of years old. And I'll, I'll pull up the quote if I can here shortly, but.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can look it up while you're talking.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, look it up. There, there's a, there's an ancient, ancient stoic quote. And then, and the seals used it. We don't rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training. James Clear with Atomic Habits, he, he took it and said, we don't rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our systems. I think is what James says. But it's just basically a manipulation of the, the original quote, which you might be able to pull up. So when you say, hey, next time I'm going to be a badass. Okay. Like how? Why? Like, what are you doing in the meantime? To prove that you're actually going to take that seriously. And the only way you can do that is through conflict resolution, practicing.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  So Kip, you and I disagreed last week about, uh, the, we had some, we had some differences of opinion. Let's say about Elon Musk flying car, right?

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  Like it wasn't a, we weren't arguing. We didn't hate each, like it was nothing, it literally meant nothing. But it was an opportunity for us to disagree with each other. That's awesome. That's good. I walked away not feeling any less of you. I don't feel like you thought any less of me, even though we disagreed. So my question for you in this situation, not you, Kip, but, but our, our asker is when's the last time you just disagreed with somebody healthily? You're like, when's the last time your wife said, hey babe, like here's the thing and you're like, no, I don't think so. I don't agree with that.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  It's okay to disagree. That's the lowest barrier to entry is disagreeing with people you love. You don't have to be a dick about it. You don't have to be unreasonable about it. But if you can just practice disagreeing with people, and I do it all the time. Kip, if you say something, I'm going to tell you like, hey, I don't, I actually disagree with that. I see it differently. And it means nothing. And in fact, it makes us both better. But I, I have to ask a lot of men, you know, when's the last time you actually disagreed with your wife respectfully? When's the last time you disagreed with a friend? Or are you this guy who just walks around with your head bobbing vertically?

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Saying yes to everything. Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you like that? Yep. I like that too. Oh yeah. You feel this way? Yeah. I feel that way too. Oh yeah. This issue is not important to you. It's not important to me. Oh, this one is. Yes. It's important to me. It's like, God, grow a spine, man. Like you have opinions, you have beliefs, you have thoughts, you have ideas. And the more that you can express yourself appropriately, I'm not saying everything needs to turn into a fight. Some guys take it to the extreme and they just become, uh, the pessimist of the group. That's dumb too. You shouldn't do that. But just be able to express yourself and say, let's say your wife comes to you this weekend and she's like, hey babe, I, um,

• 26:19Speaker 00

  I really want to go do sushi tonight. It's okay to say, you know, I'm not feeling sushi. Can we go to the steakhouse? It's okay to say that. If she comes to you and she's like, hey, what do you think of these new jeans? And they don't look good on her. It's, it's okay to say, hey babe, you know, like, I don't think those are as flattering as that other pair that I like. I wish more people would just be honest and open and forthright tactfully. Because that's the skill that you need to address confrontation. And that way, when you get into a situation where a guy's talking to your wife, here's how I, I hope I would have handled myself in that situation. Let's say Kip, you're the aggressor.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  But hey, look, we don't want any trouble. We're not interested in getting to this argument. So what I propose right now is you go your way, we'll go our way. And all is good. No harm, no foul. Like I'm, I'm not going to get aggressive with you. I'm going to try to diffuse. No harm, no foul. You go that way. We'll go this way. We'll wash our hands of it and everybody will get home safe tonight. But you can't say that unless you're comfortable dealing with disagreement. And you need to practice that in every situation that you can. So if Joe Schmo at the boardroom says, hey, we should do this at the next, you know, to, to grow our business

• 27:47Speaker 00

  and you don't agree with it, here's what I would say. Hey, you know what? Like I have an idea. You Kip, let's say you call on me, you're my boss, you call on me. I'm like, hey, I really like what Joe Schmo said about X, Y, and Z. I see it a little different. I think we can incorporate one or two of the things that he had mentioned, but here's another thing that I propose. That's confrontation. That's, that's a little bit adversarial, but it's done in an environment that's healthy and, and productive. And the more you can get comfortable with just being your own person and acknowledging that you have opinions and thoughts and ideas, and they're valid, and you express them, the easier it is to deal with injustice when it happens.

• 28:31Speaker 00

  And this sounds like an unjust situation.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  All right. So that quote, um, sometimes attributed to the ancient Greek poet, um, Archilochus.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  What is it?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  There's there.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  What is the quote?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  The quote that we don't rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  Oh, that is, okay. So that's the original quote.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, but you know how like the response is like attributed, you know what I mean? So it's all loose. And then it makes reference to Tim Ferriss and everybody else. So.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Tim didn't think of it. The same way Jaco didn't think about discipline equals freedom. I mean, I think it was Aristotle who said through discipline comes freedom. Jaco says discipline equals freedom. We're just borrowing ideas.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep. Totally. All right. Marcus felt, um, I married a woman with two boys, uh, nine and 12. Their dad is still involved and honestly, he's not a bad guy. The problem is I don't know where I fit. I lead too hard. I'm overstepping. If I hang back, I'm just the guy who lives there. How do you step into a leadership role with kids who already have a father?

• 29:49Speaker 00

  I mean, I think you're actually like, based on what you're saying, you acknowledge that he's a good human being or he's decent. He said he's doing a pretty good job. That's a good step. Most guys don't even do that. They're like, oh, he's a dick, blah. Well, hold on. Like, is he a good dad? He might still be a good dad. And I think you're acknowledging that. One thing I didn't hear you say though, is what is your, what is your bride say?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Like what, what conversations have you had with her about, hey babe, like where do you? Okay. Let me, let me back up just a step. We don't seek validation as men. It's not a thing we do. So I'm putting a hard and fast rule on that. I don't seek validation from anyone. I need to be able to validate myself and I need to be right in the eyes of God. That's it. I don't need you to affirm me, Kip. I don't need the woman in my life to affirm me. I need to be able to do that with myself and with God. So that's important as I talk about this. But that said, it's important to get the opinions and the insight of the people

• 31:01Speaker 00

  that are going to be affected by the decisions that you're making. So here's how men approach these scenarios. We don't ask first, we lead first. So in this situation, what I would say is, hey babe, we'll do, we'll do a little role play here. Like, hey babe. Um, I've really been feeling like I'm, I'm kind of at a loss for my role in the relationship with the kids. And I've been pondering, I've been thinking about it. I want to show up fully for the boys. I want to show up fully for you. I love you. I love the boys. I want

• 31:40Speaker 00

  to do this right. Can we talk about this this evening or this weekend? And she says, yeah, of course, I'd love to, because she wants you to be in their lives, obviously. And so you say, okay, great. Let's talk about it tonight. I have some ideas. And so you paint it in this positive light. It's not like, we need to have a conversation about this.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  We have an issue.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  We have an issue. Yeah, we, we've got a problem here that we need to address.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  How anxious is she going to be the rest of her day? And what is that setting up the rest of the conversation for? So you just frame it positively. Hey babe, I love you. I love the boys. I want to be such a great influence in their lives. I want to make sure you and I are on the same page with my role and how I show up. And I'm very excited to talk with you about this because I got some cool ideas. You see the difference?

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  And then, so you sit down and you have this conversation. You don't lead with questions. We, we don't. In this situation, we lead with ideas. So, hey babe, you know, as I told you earlier today, I've been thinking a lot about this. And I've been, I've been at a loss of where I stand. And I've got some ideas. Like, I would love to be more involved with the boys. I'd love to do like, once a month, a boys getaway where me and the boys get out, we go camping, or we go hunting, or we go on a hike, or I just take them, take them to lunch or breakfast, and we do a walk. Whatever your idea is, always lead with ideas.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  And then, and then the questions come. But babe, look, my intention is to really connect with the boys. I know they love their father. I honor that relationship. I'd rather them have a good father in their lives. And so I think Steve is showing up in a, in a pretty decent way. And, and I love that. I'm grateful that he's showing up that way despite your guys' differences, and that he's in his son's lives. I'm not here to replace him. I'm here to supplement. So here are my ideas. But I'm curious what you think. What do you see

• 33:53Speaker 00

  my role as? What things do you think I could do to be deeply connected with the boys and show up in a way that you hope I would show up as your husband? And let her be involved in the process. She'll tell you exactly what she wants you to do. I can do that. Anything she says, you can probably do. Like, there's probably not a whole lot she's asking for that you wouldn't be able to do, or even wouldn't want to do.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well, and I think if, if we look at our lives, like, there's probably a lot of guys who had influence on you that weren't your dad. And it's not black and white, right? It's not like there's this like, oh, here's this lane. And, and, you know, Marcus, you got to stay in this lane that's predefined. It's like, no, you're, you're a leader. How do you lead people? Oh, got it. I establish relationships with them. I influence, I speak into them. They don't have to be your kid to do that. You can do that with a kid that's a neighbor. You could do that with a kid that plays on the, the team that you're coaching. You can do that with stepkids. You can actually do that with your own kids. So figure out what leadership looks like, agnostic of these

• 35:09Speaker 01

  lanes, right? Because we have a tendency to kind of go black and white on this. Like, well, I'm not the dad. It's like, well, but you're a human. You're an adult. And you can be inspiring and impactful to the people around you. So what does that look like specifically? You know, and, and kind of flush that out. Right? So, um, but great question. And the fact that Marcus has even asking this is, is spot on, right? Because he's trying to navigate these waters. And he's not checked out. He's obviously trying to figure out the best way to influence.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, I love it. I mean, how many kids need, need a good male role model in their life? I, I did when I was young, and I had great coaches step into my life who filled that role. Was it ideal? No, of course not. But it was a damn good alternative.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. All right. Tom Iverson, uh, my 24, 24 year old son moved back home after his job fell through. It's been eight months. He's not lazy exactly, but he's comfortable.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  The answer is rules, boundaries and rules. Keep, sorry, keep going.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, he's comfortable and I can feel it turning into a pattern. My wife says, be patient. My gut says, push him out. Where's the line between supporting him and enabling him?

• 36:24Speaker 00

  Well, first, you need to have a conversation with your wife. You two need to get on the same page. You need to honor her, right? Like, I've used this analogy in the past when, when you're, you know, you're pushing your kid down the road and he's trying to ride his bike for the first time and he falls off, mom scoops him up, rushes him into the bathroom or the kitchen, kisses his owie in his boo boo and puts a little bluey Band-Aid on his, his scrape or whatever, and blows on it and does all this weird shit that women should be doing. And then dad says, no, hold on, bud. Like, we're good. Okay. Like, rub some dirt on it. Let's go. You're good. You're good. Pick him up, throw him back on the

• 37:07Speaker 00

  bike. Let's, let's go. And you try to distract him from how bad their knee might sting. Who's wrong? Nobody. Neither. You're, they're both, both the man and the woman in this scenario are exactly right. And so you need to honor the fact that she is like, hey, like, don't be hard on him. He's trying to get on, his feet under him. He's like, that's her job. Like, why would, this is the thing that confuses me. We get so frustrated with women in our lives when they're being women. And then simultaneously we'll say, we're, like, women are just so masculinized these days. Yeah, bro, you, she was trying to be

• 37:49Speaker 00

  a woman and you, and you said, don't do that. Let her be a mom for a sec. But also, she needs to let you be a man. And part of that is the trust and the relationship and how you show up. And do you honor your commitments? I know we're going deep, based on your question, but really, does she trust you? That's the question. Does she trust you? And why would she trust you? And what have you done to establish that trust? But I would, I would first sit down with her. And I'd have a conversation. And I would start it like this. Another little role play here is I'd say, hey babe, look, I, I know, um, I know that

• 38:29Speaker 00

  you want to keep him here. I understand why. Um, I, I actually appreciate the fact that you love him and you care about him and you want him to be okay. I, I actually love that about you. You're nurturing and you're caring and you're beautiful and you're lovely. And that's how I lead the conversation. And I would not say, but, let's eliminate that word. But, okay, that, that's where the wall starts to come up. So it's and instead, and. So you've been nurturing and kind and loving, and I understand why you would do that. And also, I want to make sure that we help our son get on his own two feet. That

• 39:13Speaker 00

  he enters the world, that he finds a job, that he's able to be self-sustaining, and that he's able to leave, live a fulfilled and happy life. I want both. So what do you think we could do to establish some boundaries and some rules in order for you to feel like you're doing your job as his mother, which I appreciate, honor, and respect? And what I, what my job as a father to help him learn independence and self-reliability and getting over hardship? What do you think?

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Put it, put it on her a little bit. Lean on her. Like, you can lean on your people, lean on her a little, put a little pressure on and say, hey, what do you think? She might actually come up with some really good ideas. You know, maybe she comes up with curfew. Maybe she comes up with a, a financial arrangement. Uh, maybe she comes up with a deadline or a timetable. And, and if it's her idea, even better. So if she says, well, yeah, no, you're right. I understand, which is what a rational woman would do. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I'm a little easy on him and soft on him, but you're right. Maybe we can come up with

• 40:34Speaker 00

  a calendar for how to do this. Or, or maybe we can have him pay a little bit of rent or contribute to the household. She'll come up with some ideas if you lean on her a little bit. And then when she gives her ideas, naturally, because this is what people do, she's going to say, those are my ideas, but what do you think? Because that's what normal people do. And then you get to share your ideas. And then you get on the same page. And once you're on the same page, you, you and her and your son communicate it.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think the nugget that I heard you say, Ryan, is like, this is not just about getting him out of the house on his own. This is about a learning opportunity, right? How are we developing our son? What lessons does he need to learn? Because if he's not learning it in this little soft hardship of life right now, where it's like, I'm between jobs and just living at home. Well, when, when the stakes are higher, he's, he's not going to have the reps, right, to deal with larger hardship, right? So it's like, how do we use this circumstance to develop, um, him, develop your son more and give him opportunities to learn?

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Well, I think anytime you get into these conflicts, and this is not a big conflict, it doesn't even sound like it, but it, but it is a little bit of a conflict. Anytime you get into these situations, you always want to appeal to what the other party's issue is. And her issue, based on the limited information I have, her issue is, you're being too hard on him.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  I just want little Timmy to be okay. That's probably her issue. Okay, appeal to that. So, hey babe, look, I know you want Tim to be okay. I know you care about, I know you love him. That's your job as a mom and you're a great mom. I also want him to be okay. And I want to know that Tim can stand on his own two feet. And that when hardship comes, he can address and deal with it. We want the same thing. We come at it from a little bit of a different angle, but we want the same thing. I would also say, let this be a lesson to anybody who has a three or four or five year old to start thinking about these things today.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  These are the conversations that need to take place today. And, and so when little Tim falls off his bike, you're like, hey babe, yeah, put the Bluey Band-Aid on, blow on his boo boo, wash it off, do whatever. But can we work together? Can you please, when you do that, can you please send him back out so we can do this again?

• 43:15Speaker 00

  These are the kind of conversations that need to take place at three, four, five, six, 12, 15 years old, so that at 18 years old, we're not doing this for the first time. This isn't our first rodeo.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. All right, Andre Whitfield. I grew up with nothing and built a good life. Now my kids have everything I've never had and I'm watching them take it for granted. I don't want to manufacture hardship just to teach a lesson, but I also don't want to raise off kids. How are you handling this with your own?

• 43:48Speaker 00

  You don't need to manufacture it, but my kids will like, and I kind of do it jokingly, but also serious. My kids are like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, um, I don't know, I'm gonna go hang out in my room. Like whatever. I'm like, that's not your room.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  Like, I hope, that's my room. Or like, I'm gonna go get in our car. That's not your car. That's my car. So you're gonna treat it with respect. You know, we have these types of conversations. I'm letting you live here because I'm your dad and I have a responsibility for you, but you like, I owe you nothing.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  I'm doing this because I love and care about you, but you gotta pull your weight. And so the, the, what I would say is, I don't know how old your son is, but was it a son? It was a son, right?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  He just said kid.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  I think kid, kids.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  Get them involved in what you're doing. You know, when, when my kids, so this morning, my two oldest boys, they were laying on the couch and I had to go run some errands this morning. And they were gonna go to their mom's house. And I'm like, hey guys, cool. Before you go to your mom's house, clean the living room. And they're like, um, they like put up a stink. I'm like, hey, you, you're, you, this is your house. This is my house. This is your house. I don't, I don't go into your bedroom and just mess up your shit for fun.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  Like I don't go in there and like move all your furniture around, take all your sheets off your bed, like break things just because they're there. I don't do that at all. And I expect that you would do the same thing, especially in the common areas. Like all of us are using this area. My kids are intimately familiar with what I do for work. And so my youngest will be like, hey dad, I want to earn $10 so I can, he, he went to Disneyland with his siblings and his mom last week, or not Disneyland, but Universal. And he's like, dad, I want to earn some money. I'm like, yeah, you can earn some money. Let's go out and do store orders. Like, I don't want to do store orders. I'm like, I don't want to give you $20.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  And he's like, okay, let's go do store orders. Yeah, exactly. So we can introduce our kids to the dynamic and how it actually works. Yeah, we, we live a much more abundant lifestyle than I did when I was a kid, but there's still rules. They still wake up. They still have chores. They still have duties. They still have responsibilities. They help me with a store. They help me with my business. Just last night, I put this pot, there's a plant right here. You can't see just out of frame. And I put it in the new pot and I had my, my second son and my, my fourth child, my youngest come down. I'm like, hey guys, I need your help. You grab the vacuum, bring it down. And both of them like, we don't want to do that. I'm like, I don't care. I don't care if you want to do it. You're gonna help me.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  And so we came down and we joked and we played and we had fun and we replanted this plot, this plant and then one of them vacuumed up and it was good.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  There's, there's not really an option around here to contribute. Like this is just part of the deal and part of being a family. So yeah, you can have a, a much more abundant lifestyle than maybe you did when you were a kid. But if you don't give them duties and responsibilities and obligations, they're gonna suffer, man. They're gonna suffer.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's tough. Let's hop into one more question, Ryan, before we're, we're up on time. I was just looking over these. I, I think I, I got a good one here. Kyle Pratt, he says, I moved back to my hometown to be near my parents. Problem is people here still see me as the screw up I was at 19. I'm 38, sober 12 years and running a crew. Does it matter what they think or is it worth trying to change the story? So kind of this, I don't know, kind of moving beyond maybe your past and, and rising above it, right? When people still want to hold on to the, how they see you. Yeah, I think we can be transcendent, right? With this question.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  For sure. What was the last, what was the last sentence of the que, like what was the last question there?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Doesn't matter what they think, or, I mean, he creates a false dichotomy here, but doesn't matter what they think, or is it worth trying to change the story?

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Neither.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  That's the false dichotomy.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  What?

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. It doesn't matter what they think and you don't need to prove it to anybody.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  That's it. There's one other tactic I would use.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  It's very simply owning it. Self-deprecation is amazing. So if I bump into you at the store, let's say, and, and

• 48:35Speaker 00

  you know, maybe we had some problems in the past, or you know, my reputation or whatever. And I bump into you in the store and I'm like, oh Kip, like, oh, it's good to see you. You know, I, I, I just got back. I've been away for 20 years. I just got back, man. I was such a screw up when I was a kid. I'm so glad to be back and like in a different headspace.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  That's so diffusing.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  Or if somebody says, um, I remember you. I was like, yeah. I remember me too. I was such a jerk back then. I, I'd feel the same way you did when I, if, if I bumped into you. Self-deprecation is huge. It's so diffusing. And I promise, if you have enough of that, just lightness and casualness about it, that stuff goes away, man. It does. It might take some time, especially if you live in a small community. It might take some time. Just self-deprecation, play around with it. Tell people you were a screw up when the situation arises. Just have some fun with it.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  But, but here's one thing I would, I wouldn't convince everybody I've changed. I don't need to tell you that. I'm gonna let my actions speak for themselves. So I'm not gonna say, well, I, I know I was a mess up when I was a kid, but I'm really working hard now. I don't, I'm not doing, like, why am I trying to impress you? So you only do the first half of it, which is, oh, hi, last time I was here, you remember that one time and I got arrested because I was drunk, driving drunk or whatever? What was I thinking?

• 50:11Speaker 00

  And that's it. And you just leave it there.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  You remember that time, like I remember 20 years ago when I was here and I got admitted to rehab. Like what a crazy life compared to where I am now. Wild. And you just leave it there. Just acknowledgement, self-deprecation, a little fun with it. And goes such a long way.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I do think to call on something you said earlier, Ryan, you know, the power of the repentance process or really the process of learning, right? It's like, if there are things that you need to clear up, yeah, you might want to do that. Right? But not, but in the spirit of what you're saying, don't clear it up to give them the power to determine who you are and your own confidence. Do it. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. And, and you're focused on learning. And, and that's ultimately what matters, right? More than anything else. And then, and what's critical about this guys too, is that when we do, when we take that approach to something, it doesn't come with this premeditated resentment that we're gonna have against people. Because I'm, I'm doing all these things and, and they still don't see me.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  It's like, dude, let it go. Do all those things. Why? Because you want to? And don't put that power over into them and, and, and base on what people think of you as your value. That, that's the risk, right? That ultimately Ryan is pulling out earlier as well as again, on this question.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. Like if, let's say you, when you were a kid, you broke into, you know, Mrs. Johnson's house and you stole her radio or something. I don't know. I'm just making shit up.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  You know? Is, is it too much to just write a note and say, hey, Mrs. Johnson, like I'm back in town. I drove by your house the other day and I was reminded of that time where I did that dumb thing and I'm so sorry. And you just like, leave a little flower pot on her door. Totally. That's repentance, man. And it's like, you don't, but you don't, but you can't do it with the expectation that she'll forgive you.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  You just have to do it because that's the repentance process. And, and that's what I would do. I would just leave a little, a little flower pot on the door and say, hey, Mrs. Johnson, I'm back in town. I was driving by. Man, I was such a dumb kid and I'm so sorry I did that. And it's been weighing on me and I just wanted to let you know that I'm sorry. And I'm sure we'll bump into each other at some point. And I would like that to be a good experience. Here's a little flower to make your day brighter. You could do that.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dude, so powerful. Well, and, and not to put you on the spot, but I'm sure you've done that. I've done that. I, I remember two years into college, living in Phoenix, Arizona. And I remember thinking like, you know what? I did some stupid stuff when I was in high school and I want to apologize. I literally wrote a note, something very similar to this and said, hey, I want to apologize for the way I handled that situation. And it made me feel better, right? Like they never, they never wrote a letter back. I have no idea like how they took it, but I was, I was aligned with self. And I cleaned up something that I felt I should have cleaned up. And, and that's what ultimately mattered.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. It's really easy to do. It's, well, it's simple to do. It's not always easy because your ego gets in the way. It's like, oh, I don't want, that's easy.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Shouldn't matter. Yeah, totally. So there's your call to action. Clean up your, clean up your shit.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  We gotta wrap up.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you know, we kind of kicked off earlier around, you know, the importance of brotherhood and the values there. To join us in the Iron Council, go to theironcouncil.com. Here's the critical element. Enrollment into the Iron Council is going to close October 31st and not open back up before, right before the new year. Yeah. So if you're wanting to get some reps in, get, make some progress before the year's over, now's the time. You, you got literally what, three days to act on it. So theironcouncil.com to sign up, join us. I would recommend that. Obviously we're not major advocates of like, ah, you know what? Just wait and wait until the new year starts to, to improve life. No, do it now.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Get, work out some kinks, start making some progress before the year's out and finish strong. And so once again, that's theironcouncil.com.

• 54:30Speaker 00

  Awesome. Yep. Check it out, guys. We've got a, we had a great interview with David Dieta. And then we got one with Jason Kalipa coming out next week. So make sure to subscribe, leave your rating and review. Join us at orderofman.com/ironcouncil and we'll see you inside. Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man Podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you are meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.