Firing Your Friend, Leading Your Family When in Doubt, and Talking to Your Dad Before It's Too Late | ASK ME ANYTHING

In this episode of Ask Me Anything, Ryan Michler and Kipp Sorensen discuss the importance of living intentionally, making the most of time with loved ones, and taking responsibility for personal decisions. They debate the death penalty and the public broadcasting of executions before answering listener questions about dating after divorce, fatherhood after children leave home, staying consistent when progress slows, and handling workplace disappointments. The conversation also explores firing a friend who isn't performing, the value of honest feedback, and why clear communication matters in difficult situations. Finally, they discuss how fathers can encourage their children to embrace outdoor adventures and family experiences. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - Episode Opener 00:50 - Making the Most of Life and Time with Loved Ones 03:04 - The Death Penalty and Public Executions 10:33 - Attention, Incentives, and Personal Responsibility 14:37 - Dating After Divorce: When Should Your Kids Meet Someone New? 21:11 - Fatherhood After Your Children Leave Home 27:23 - Staying Consistent When Results Stop Being Exciting 32:22 - Drifting Through Life vs. Acting Intentionally 34:27 - Shackleton's Expedition and the Power of Intentionality 39:55 - Pride vs. Knowing Your Worth at Work 48:55 - The Importance of Honest Feedback 53:54 - Hiring Your Best Friend: Can You Fire Him Without Losing the Friendship? 01:02:01 - Why Uncertainty Creates Stress 01:05:42 - Getting Your Teenager Interested in Outdoor Adventures Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The amount of precision and intentionality required to take that boat from a floating sheet of ice in the Antarctic, 900 miles to a fixed island off the coast of South Africa, is almost unimaginable, almost impossible, clearly not impossible, but almost impossible. And if they were off just a sliver of a degree, they missed that island, they sail even hundreds of miles more and probably die, along with the entirety of their crew they left behind on that floating sheet of ice. But they didn't. They hit the island because of intentionality.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Tip, what's up, man? Good to see you. We've been trading, uh, trading woes and heartbreaking, gut-wrenching stories this morning. So if the guys, if the guys hear that we're down in our voice, that's why. Um, yeah, we, we've got a friend whose, whose wife has been battling cancer for six months. Uh, she just passed and you were telling me about some close family friends, uh, that have passed. It's like, man, you kind of start to feel old when, and you know, some of these things that we talked about were, were natural circumstances, but some of them weren't. And, but you kind of start to feel old when the people around

• 1:27Speaker 00

  you start dying. I don't know. I'm not trying to be insensitive when I say that, but it's weird. I have more and more people in my life who are passing away. I'm like, I'm getting old, man. It's, it's wild. It reminds you of your own mortality.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think there's this natural, like our next lot of our generation is dealing with a lot of deaths and then taking care of our parents. But that's like the next big thing.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Oof. I worry about that too with my mom and just, you know, she's, she's healthy as a horse. She's like, she's in her early seventies. She called me three weeks ago and she's like, hey, I just got back from skydiving. I'm like, what?

• 2:10Speaker 00

  She's like, yeah, I just, I thought it would be fun to go skydiving. So me and, and my niece, her granddaughter went skydiving together. I'm like, mom, you're awesome. Like, I love, I think that's actually where I get a lot of my, the, what I call the just say yes mentality. Like if there's ever anything new, any other cool opportunity, some unique experience, some random thing that you can go do, just like, why wouldn't you say yes to it? But you know how many men are like, their default is no, like, I'm busy, I'm tired, I this, I that, I can't, my money, but like, you know what? Speaking of death, one day you're going to be on your deathbed and you're not going to think, man, I'm really glad I played it safe. You're going to think, oh, that, that one thing I could have went and done

• 2:55Speaker 00

  that I always wanted to do. Yeah, I should have done that thing. So she's awesome that way. It's pretty cool.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  It's so funny. It's like randomly, I was skydiving today. I'm like, huh? You're a 70 plus year old woman. She's like, I don't care. It was awesome. Like, all right, get after it, mom. So cool.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's great.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Well, we got some good questions today.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Go ahead.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was just going to say, love, look, you know, keep, hug your loved ones, right?

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Make time for it, prioritize it. I mean, that, that's important.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Okay. So, well, speaking of death, and this might not be like, this was kind of a morbid transition, but there's something in the news I wanted to ask you about. Um, what's the guy's name? He's a terrorist. He shot up Fort Hood, Nid- Nidon or Nadal Hassan or something like that. Uh, yeah. He is, he is to be executed by firing squad, which I think overwhelmingly, most people are like, yeah, good.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  But the controversy is this thing's going to be livestreamed and

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Everybody's up in arms. I mean, I've seen so much about it. I have my own opinions about it, but, and I, and I'll share, cause I always share my opinion.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Enabled.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  That's why we're all here.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  But I'm curious what you think about the death penalty by firing squad and also maybe separately, the, uh, livestream. What do you think?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think the different ways of execution, I'm probably a little bit indifferent to. I mean, you know what I mean? Firing squad versus injection. I mean, I'm sure there's some morbid ones that we probably should stay away from, maybe. Um, I'm indifferent to that. The livestreaming it and publicizing it, I think is a bad call. I think it's a bad precedence. Um, I don't know. I just think it's a bad precedence and I think you're giving the guy way too much credit, right? Like, I think him itching out, out of our memory and like, who is that? I don't know who that is. Like screw that guy, right? Don't

• 5:06Speaker 01

  make him a martyr. Don't publicize him. Uh, it's all, I always like it when we don't use, uh, people's names that did like mass shootings and stuff.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Cause I'm like, you know, screw them. They don't, they don't, they don't get to deserve, um, their words, their, their name on my lips. And so I, I think it's a bad precedence. I think it's kind of like, I don't know, what are we, what are we celebrating? You know what I mean? I, I, I'm not against him being executed, but I don't know if you celebrate it.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can see that. I don't know. I've, I've, my, my first reaction is indifference. I don't care. Like watch it or don't, you can do whatever you want. Doesn't matter to me. Um, but on the other hand, you know, I do see it. I guess my, my question is you talk about him becoming a martyr. Well, he may or may not become a martyr regardless of whether or not that's livestreamed, number one.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  And, and number two, human psychology, we work on incentives and deterrents. So I, I don't, I don't know actually, but is this, is this a deterrent to, to say, hey, like, we don't tolerate this and we're, we're going to follow through and we're going to execute you and, um, you know, and, um, I mean, part of it, I, this is going to sound pretty insensitive, but like, I would just love it. I'm not, I'm probably not going to watch it, but it would be interesting if the guy just like cried and cowered like a little baby on live TV. And then you can see like how big of a coward he actually

• 6:46Speaker 00

  is, you know, that, that would be, that would be redeeming.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Then it would be worth it.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  You know, he's just like sobbing and just crying and like, please. And like, well, that, that would be good. Um, but I don't know. I'm, I'm kind of indifferent. I don't know. I, I think a lot of this stuff is just distraction. Like I, it doesn't change my life one way or the other. I think that this, this man ought to be brought to justice and a firing squad is completely appropriate. Hanging, I think is completely appropriate. People say lethal injection, but we had this woman, what, two weeks ago, who survived two botched attempts at lethal injection. It's like, what are we doing?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 00

  Like we're, we're being so like sensitive that like we bought, so sensitive that we can no longer kill people effectively, effectively as if we don't know how to kill people. People have been killing people for hundreds of thousands of years or whatever it is. And now we're, we have to be sensitive to the point, we can't even kill somebody correctly. I don't know. It's, it's crazy. So firing squad, whatever. I don't know. I guess maybe I'm, I'm softening to the idea that it shouldn't be televised, but it is interesting to me that all the people who say, we want transparent, full transparency, full transparency, full transparency, except for that, that makes us squeamish. We don't, we don't want full

• 8:07Speaker 00

  transparency on that. It's like, well, yeah, you know, I, I get, that's part of it, I think. Um, and ultimately you can decide if you want to watch it or not. I, I did hear somebody say that people, that he saw that some people are forming like watch parties. That's kind of gross. Um, I don't plan on watching it. I don't, again, it doesn't impact my life. I'll probably be, be watching lacrosse or wrestling with my kids or playing Fortnite or something, but, or hunting, but I don't know. I'm, I'm kind of mixed on it. A little mixed.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  I, I guess we'll see. I guess we'll see. Cause right? We, we get what we deserve, right? So if tons of people watch, it's like, well, then that's what we wanted. And if nobody watches, then you'll, there's your consensus that like, you know, it was considered untasteful, right? For, for a bunch of Americans.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  I mean, that's why I, that's, I mean, that, what you just said is such an important concept that I think people overlook. If you want change, then you have to change your behavior. Your, your behavior dictates what happens, not only in your own personal life, but also when it comes to politics, uh, when it comes to entertainment. People will cry about certain forms of entertainment, drag queens, for example. I'm not, I'm not a fan of that by any means. I think it's disgusting. I think it's despicable to, uh, expose our children to that. Now, if dudes want to run around in pantyhose and lady makeup, like do whatever you want, but no, I'm not going to expose my children to that. And so what

• 9:42Speaker 00

  do we do? We make a big spectacle of it. We put it up on the news. We create all the stories about it. We put it online. We talk about it. And then it just gives these weirdos and these perverts more fuel to continue poor behavior. I'm not saying you should ignore it, but your behavior is what determines this. People are out looking for attention, even if it's bad attention. And if you give it to them, that's their fuel.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  They get more movement. Yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Right. So let's just be moral. Let's just be healthy. Let's not participate in this stuff voluntarily, as if I need big daddy government or the media or the entertainment industry or the sports world to tell me what I should and should not care about. Like, I mean, even, even with sports, you know, I, the WNBA, it's like, I don't know why anybody would watch a WNBA game when there's probably an NBA game on that you can watch. And then I see these like grown men, like arguing with female players on the basketball court and pointing fingers at them and mocking. It's like, what are you doing? Like, why is this so important to you? Isn't there something better to do with your time? But man, your attention is, uh, is a commodity that people are after.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, I have this quote back to that loved one, our loved one. I, I saw this yesterday, man, and I thought this was so good, kind of regarding our children. And it, and it's, children do not say, I had a hard day, can we talk? They say, will you play with me?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, and I'm like, dude, that, that kind of hit home. You know, as I'm just thinking about the loss of loved ones and whatnot, just like, yeah, it's totally right. You know, and how often do we blow that off, right? It's like, not now, buddy. Yeah, too busy. You know, and that's their way of reaching out and, you know, and that time passes. Talking about being old men, right? Those time passes and before we know it, our kids don't ask to play with us.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  I know. I was thinking about that because my youngest, the other night, he, I think he had a bad dream and he came in. And we kind of like to do pranks and jump scares around here. We think it's funny. So. He came into my room and he's like, dad, and I heard him, like I woke up and heard him. But, but I kept my eyes closed and he's like, dad. And I didn't say anything and he kept getting closer. And then finally, when he was close enough, I just, ah, scared him.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  And he's like, why would you do that? I'm like, why would you wake me up? I wouldn't have done that if you didn't wake me up. And he's like, I'm scared. And normally I'd be like, well, go back to your room. And I don't know. The older I get, like, there's going to come a point in time and it might be in the next week. Where he's like, I don't want to sleep in your room anymore. And then I'll miss it.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Ever. Like it's done. I made a post years ago because I was holding my youngest son. And I said, one day, this is crazy. Think about this, Kip, for a second. One day, you're going to put your kid down and you're never going to pick them up again. And you don't know what day it is. But one day, he's going to not, and he doesn't hold my hand anymore. I don't know when the last, I think there was a time, we were either going to his sister's dance recital or the grocery store and he asked to hold my hand and I held his hand. That was like the last time I held his hand. There's going to be one day where he's like, he doesn't, he's, he, he doesn't get scared. He doesn't want to come in, in bunk up with me.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  And, and it could have been last night. I don't, I don't know. I don't know when the last time is.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  But yeah, we, I'm a lot more lenient. I guess that happens when you have, you know, for your younger kids, right? And the older kids are like, you were such a jerk to me, dad, but you're so easy on him. It's like, yeah, I like him more than you. So. Deal with it.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I've taken advantage of the time I have with him. I, I, he was always, he was my backup plan. With dealing with you.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  I have this theory too of, of kids. You know, I've got four and, and, and, you know, we, we both have a lot of kids by, by cultural norms. And I think I've got this theory. Tell me what you think. Everybody I talk to, their, their oldest kid is always the best, like the little saint. You know, they're just like blessed and, and, you know. Ordained by God. They're like these like good humans and like so obedient and hardworking and intelligent and diligent. And then the last one is like, what the hell?

• 14:24Speaker 00

  And my theory is this is, is God wants us to bring kids into the world. So when we're, when we start to form a family and we want to have kids, God's like, all right, let me give these people the best of the best. So they keep having kids.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Easy ones.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  And then by the time you and your wife realize, hey, we're done having kids, God's like, bring in the backups. Let's get, let's offload the, offload the rest of them. But then it's crazy.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  They're seasoned now. They're, they're ready to handle this kid. They're ready to handle this soul. Yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  All right, man. Well, let's get to some questions today. We rambled enough here, I think.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right. Derek Vaughn. I've been divorced three years and I'm starting to date again. My kids are nine and 12. When do you bring someone new around your kids and how do you know she's worth introducing? Super good question.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  It is a good question. Nine and 12 is hard, man. I don't know, Kip. How old were your kids when you guys went through, when you went through your divorce?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Oh, man, they were, I mean.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Four, four and two, five and three. You know, but I didn't start dating until they were five years later. So 10.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  You waited five years to start dating again?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Um, I started dating, but not like seriously, like I, I, I, I was the dude that like, no woman gets to meet my kids until it's really serious. So I, I swung that pendulum too far, I think.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  It generated its own problems.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  Well, the reason I asked their ages is because, so I, so when I went through my divorce three years ago, I would, I, let's say I had a 15 year old, a 12 year old.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Nine year old and a, a seven year old. And I think when you go through a divorce. The kids that are older, it, it's easier for them because they're older, more mature. They kind of can wrap their head around it to some degree. And the kids who are younger, that don't, they're kind of ignorant about it. They don't really quite understand. So I don't think it impacts them as, as heavily, but that nine and 12 year old stage. I, I had two right in that, right in that stage right there. It was hard on them, man. Really hard.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  Because they're old enough and mature enough to understand what's going on and they don't like it. Uh, but they're not old enough to quite wrap their head around why this is happening and what's going on and what does it say about them? And they start to place blame on themselves. So I, I think you really have to be pretty conscious of the ages, you know, with, with them being those ages. I, in hindsight, I would be significantly more sensitive to that. Than I would if I had kids who were 15, 16, 17, eight years old, 18 years old.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Got it. Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  I, I would just be, I, again, in hindsight, I dated pretty quickly, probably too quickly, if I'm being honest.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. And in hindsight, I would not have done that as fast because those age categories are, are tough. They just are. They seem, it seems to be.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  As far as introducing, you know, I, I think, I think you don't want to have a revolving door, right? Like I, I, I wouldn't want to just introduce my kids to every person that I go on one date with.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  I, I think I, I would really consider starting to introduce when it becomes serious and it has the potential of being a longer term situation or potentially a, a life, a lifelong partner. I, I, as a general rule of, of thumb, I might, I mean, maybe it's four weeks, maybe it's eight weeks, maybe it's 12 weeks.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  You know, I, I lean somewhere around the two month mark. Like if I had to just like randomly throw out a number. Cause I think after a couple of months, you really start to understand that this is somebody I want to spend a significant amount of time with. And I would like to bring them into my world and I would like to be in their world. And then the only other thing I would say with that. When you do decide to introduce your children to the woman that you're dating is honesty is the best policy. When I started dating, I, I lied to my kids. I wasn't being malicious. I, I, it was no ill will. I, but I never, I didn't tell them I was going on dates. I'd say, I'm going to hang out with a friend or I'm going to do this thing. When really what I was doing is going on a date. And in hindsight, I should have just told them, hey, I'm going on a date.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  And, and just been clear and direct with them. So when you do decide to introduce this woman to your kids. Just let them know, hey, guys, look, this is a woman I'm dating. We've been dating the last several months and I've told her a lot about you guys. She's interested in what you do and um, I really like her. I care about her. I want to bring her into my world and you guys are part of my world. And also I want you to know that just because you're meeting her, doesn't mean that this is a forever situation. It doesn't guarantee that she's always going to be the one in, in my life. She's not here to replace mom. She, she, she may or may not be here in the next couple of months, but

• 19:37Speaker 00

  I care about her enough that I want to bring her into what we're about and I want to introduce you guys to her. And I would just be radically transparent about what the situation is. And then let the kids work through it, you know, just let them process it, let them work through it, be there and available for them. I would not spring it on them like, hey, you're going to meet Cindy tonight. It's like, no. You're going to meet Cindy next week. Right? Like we're, we're gonna, we're, I'm going to bring her over. She's going to come over for dinner. Um, or, or, or we're going to a movie and I just want, she's going to come to the door and, and meet you guys really briefly, but like prep them. Don't just spring it on them. I, I think that's a fair way to do it too.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  I love it, man. Yeah, it's solid advice. You know, it might, the funny part about me is

• 20:30Speaker 01

  it ended up becoming a measuring stick for the girl, uh, for the girls I was dating, right? So if I delayed it, yeah, yeah. So if I delayed it, if I delayed too much, they're like, haven't met the kids yet. Are we, are, are you not interested in me? Like it was this, it was this thing that I was like, no, I'm just overly sensitive about it, right? But, but the girls I was dating were bothered. Right? When I waited too long, uh, to introduce them to the kids. It was kind of a funny dynamic that I didn't ever think about, but.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  I mean, I think there's soft ways to do it too, you know, like maybe talking with the kids about who you're on the phone with and who you're talking with, or what their kids are like. Long before you even meet them. What are, what are their kids into? Where do they live? What are they about? So they start to process and wrap their head around, okay, dad's dating this woman. She's got a couple of kids. This is what she does for fun. This is who they are. This is what she's like.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  It's not like a shock when she shows up. Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Right. It's not like boom, all of a sudden it's like, here's this woman, meet her. That's weird.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. All right, Tom Kessler, my oldest left for college in August and the house feels different. I spent 18 years thinking my job was to raise him and now I don't know what my job is. What does fatherhood look like once they're out of the house?

• 21:53Speaker 00

  I mean, this is the identity crisis we talk about all the time. You wrapped up your identity in being a father. And I I've often talked about this is like, yeah, I I'm a father. I love being a father. I care obviously about my kids. And yet, my oldest just graduated and I don't see him very often. I sent him a message the other day and I just said, hey bud, are you coming over tonight? I miss you. And he's, he's, again, he's the first, he's like the blessed child or whatever. And so he's like, oh dad, yeah, I miss you too. And he called me immediately and we just cat caught up for 20 minutes or whatever on the phone. So I'm just on the front end of this. I haven't really experienced this very much. Fortunately, I have kids still

• 22:36Speaker 00

  at home. Yeah, but I think you can still be a father. It's just a different role. It's like, maybe a good analogy is imagine if you're playing, you're playing football and you're a linebacker. And you go to a new team, you go to play college and the coach says, hey, you're not, you're not a linebacker anymore. You're a defensive end. Well, you're still a football player. You're just, it's a different role. Instead of being a linebacker, now you're a defensive end. And I think the same is true in this situation. You're still his father. I've often said, your job as a parent is to render yourself obsolete. And I still believe that to be true. But that doesn't mean that I can't engage with my kids once they're out of the

• 23:18Speaker 00

  house. It doesn't mean that I can't have conversations or, or we can't, you know, talk about deep, important conversations and topics and I can't be there for them when they're struggling with a thing. I think you're in, you're in support mode right now. Whereas before, you may have been more in, I don't know what mode you'd say, but you're, I mean, you're actively engaged in raising this kid and keeping them alive. And now you're in a support role. I mean, you're, you're there as a support, like you're not even on the football field anymore. You're on the sideline, coaching, helping, if they get injured, they come over, you nurse them back to

• 23:58Speaker 00

  health or whatever. You're in a support role. So I don't know, you, you have, you have probably more experience on this than I do, Kip. So what do you think?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, got three boys out of the house. You know, when you brought up a football, the football analogy, what I thought you were gonna say is it's like you're the football coach and he graduates high school and starts playing college ball. But every so often, he'll call up his old coach and get advice. But he's playing for another team and his focus is elsewhere. But you're still his coach, right? That's, that's, I, I live that, like, that feels right to me. How's this though? Super funny dude. I, and we were all raised different. So what I thought I was gonna do when my kids turn 18 is, you know, why wash my hands of them. And I would never, you know, have to deal with anything. And every so often, they would stop by. That's what I

• 24:52Speaker 01

  thought was gonna happen because that's what, that's how I was raised. And that's not the case. Still very much engaged in my boys' lives. It's just different, right? And, and now we're navigating different things together, like marriage, and careers, and philosophy, and we're, we're having different conversations. But man, I, I'm loving this phase. Like, my three boys, I want to hang out with them. Like, not because they're my children. I want to hang out with them because I like them as human beings. And they're awesome guys. And they're funny. And we crack jokes and we have a good time together. And it's, it's interesting. It's so, it's such a

• 25:35Speaker 01

  different, kind of mode of fatherhood. But I love it, right? And, and, and we're just navigating different things now. And, and I'm not as assertive, right, with my opinion. I wait until they might want to ask for advice. Every so often, I'm like, hey, can I give you advice? And they're far more respectful now than they've ever been.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  Cause they got, and they got kicked in the nuts a few times. And they're like, oh no, maybe dad knows what he's talking about.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  They appreciate, they appreciate some advice now. Yeah. So it's just a different navigational time. But it's wild, you know, I mean, Kiabe, he just got married, what, like, four weeks ago. That's our first, first kid married before. And that's just a wild thing because now you're, we're like, in-laws and, you know, these other parents that will try to steal our kids' time away from us. Yeah. You know, that's a whole other dynamic. We're like, thinking like, how do we, actually, you know, one thing that a good friend of mine, I was chatting with him and I was like, hey, how do you, how do you, how, how do you get your kids to always be around all the time? Because his kids are always spending a lot of time with him,

• 26:46Speaker 01

  even though they're out of the house. And he was like, we do epic stuff all the time. That's why. If we didn't do epic stuff, they wouldn't want to hang around us as much.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  They wouldn't want to be around. Yeah.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  And so him and his wife have like, really strategized, like, how do we get them to hang out with us? And, you know, and when we did a Hawaii trip last summer, you know, no, get back out of that idea. Oh, no. Yeah. Everyone's like, we'll all be there. So like, what do you know? That's interesting. If we had Christmas at home doing nothing, maybe they wouldn't have come, right? So it's like, you know, you kind of have to adjust a little bit and try to entice them to stick around.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Well, and also, you're the beneficiary. I mean, oh, so that must have been so hard for you and your wife to be in Hawaii at the expense, you know, sacrificing so your kids would hang out with you. So you get to do epic stuff with your wife. And by the way, you can do more epic stuff with your wife when your kids are out of the house. And then also, they get to come around and it's like, kind of the best of both worlds. So, yeah.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  It's funny. Look at us talking like old man stuff here. All right, Marcus Ellison, how do you stay consistent with something for years when the results stopped being exciting a long time ago?

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Well, why are you doing it?

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  I would, I would ask myself that. Why, why are you doing it? If the results are no longer exciting, you have some decisions to make. One is a decision of, of being pragmatic, right? So for example, going to the gym. It's the law of diminishing returns. Every time you go in, your results will be diminished over time. If you're 100 pounds overweight and you start training, you're going to lose weight and build strength really fast. And then over the course of six months, a year, two years, five years, the results that you experience are incremental. But you don't stop going to the gym because it's no longer exciting. You keep

• 28:51Speaker 00

  going to the gym because you know it's a prudent decision. And it's in the best interest of your health and your life and the people you're trying to serve. But if there's other things that you're doing, maybe it's a hobby. Maybe, maybe it's hunt, let's take hunting. I love to hunt. It's exciting to me. But I've talked with a lot of older men who don't have the same thrill about it as they once did. And they would much rather go with their kids or their grandkids and watch them hunt. They don't even hunt. They just want to watch their kids hunt. But let's just say, for the sake of argument, you've lost interest in that. Okay, so don't, then don't

• 29:32Speaker 00

  do it. Who, why, why do we think that just because we've done a thing in the past that we need to continue to do that if it no longer interests us? Now, again, I'm making the distinction between what is good and wholesome and prudent versus what is no longer serving us in some way. And I don't know what, what this guy's talking about. I don't know which camp his question falls into. But I think there's two camps. And if there's something that just is no longer exciting to you, fine, go find something else that's exciting to you. But if it's your job, I'm not telling you just to leave your job. You have duties and responsibilities

• 30:14Speaker 00

  and financial obligations. If it's going to the gym or eating right or reading scripture and going to church, I'm not saying just don't do it anymore because you don't like it. But I, I think I'd figure out which camp it's in first. And if it's the latter, where, where it's just something that's, you don't need in your life, but you have enjoyed it in the past, just dump it or table it or sideline it and do something else for a bit. But if it's something that you have to do, because of the type of man that you want to be, then I would find joy in the journey. Joy in the process. Stop looking at it so much as a result oriented situation. Like, you don't go to the gym so you can lose weight anymore. You go to the gym because that's what

• 30:59Speaker 00

  a healthy man does. You, you don't, you don't go train your mind and your body or read books because all of this knowledge and you're going to be amazing and you're going to be like Einstein. No, you do it because there might be just a little snippet of information that you pick up that will help serve you, your family, or your clients better today. You don't go to work because you're going to be the next CEO of a Fortune 500 company. You go because you like to see the business grow. You're engaged in the business. And this is what's required of a man who's to protect and provide for his family. So I would find, I would try to find joy in the process. Even the gym, here's one thing I've started to do, is, you know, I have a long way

• 31:44Speaker 00

  to go with regards to my health. And it's been pretty on track over the past several months. But when I go to the gym, what actually makes it exciting is not me losing three pounds. Like, I can lose three pounds or gain three pounds in a day because I'm a dude. Like, this is how it works. So that doesn't really entice me anymore. But you know what does? Doing a bench press flawlessly. So I might back up on the weight a little bit and do it to perfection, perfect form. If I'm doing, you know, you know, cable bicep curls, for example, it's like, okay,

• 32:24Speaker 00

  back the weight down and do the isolate the bicep and do the, the movement correctly. Take pride in that. Not the fact that you're, you have the pin on the lowest setting, but that you're doing a perfectly formed cable bicep curl. That kind of stuff is fun to me. And that's finding joy in the process as opposed to the results.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  I love it. You know, one thing that comes to mind with Marcus's question is this idea of drifting.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  And I think we might be doing a lot of things in life that are good for us. But we're doing them from the perspective of drifting, not out of choice. And, and, and I think sometimes this isn't about like, ah, you know, and I'm not disagreeing with what you said. Cause I agree with everything that you said, Ryan. But I also believe that in some cases, we could be doing the thing that we should be doing. But we're doing it in this spirit of drifting. Well, I'm doing it. Why? Well, because you know, it's expected of me because of social pressure. Cause it's always been this way. And we're not choosing it. Like we haven't thought through it and thought, I'm doing this. Why? Because I want to.

• 33:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Cause I'm making a conscious choice here. And when we reduce that choice, that agency from the decisions we're making, it's not exciting. Why? Cause there's this built in like, I'm just going along. This is why people get in jobs that they can't stand and they just stay there forever. It's convenient. It's, you know, I'll put my time in, I'll be recognized someday, but they're drifting. And their heart's not there. And so I'm not saying just quit the job. Maybe it's choosing the job that you're in. Choosing what you have right in front of you and going, I'm going to do this. Why? Because I choose to and I'm going to make the best of it.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Right? And that will in itself just empowers us to show up substantially better. And then just, you know, to put out this caveat, if you look at it and you're like, no, but I don't want to be here. Then come up with a plan to move. Okay. Well, I'm going to, I'm, I am going to stay here, but here's my time window. This is what I'm going to do. And this is where I'm going to, uh, use it to project me forward into another role or another situation. Now there's purpose around what you're doing and you're just not doing it because it's expected of you.

• 34:50Speaker 00

  I like that, man. As you were saying that, I was thinking, okay, so we've got drift on one hand. And I, I totally agree. I mean, there's societal drift, there's relational drift. Uh, there's this burnout, right? But the opposite of that is what? Intentionality. I, I'm reminded of, so one of, one of the best books and every man should read this is called, uh, endurance. It's about Ernest Shackleton's ill-fated adventure across the Antarctic. And I won't ruin it for you. A lot of guys are very familiar with it at this point, but this came to mind as you were saying that. When they got stuck in that ice, uh, Shackleton and I believe it was one other person, one other man, he was the navigator,

• 35:35Speaker 00

  got into, into the rescue boat and attempted to take this very small wooden boat across some of the most inhospitable seas in the world. If I remember correctly, 900 miles to an island off the coast of South Africa. Don't quote me on this. I'm, I'm just trying to recall. So the story, the story will make sense.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  The amount of precision and intentionality required to take that boat from a floating sheet of ice in the Antarctic, 900 miles to a fixed island off the coast of South Africa is almost unimaginable. Almost impossible, clearly not impossible, but almost impossible. What kind of intentionality do you think it would require for any human being on the planet to do something like that? And if they were off just a sliver of a degree, they missed that island.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  They sail even hundreds of miles more and probably die along with the entirety of their crew. They left behind on that floating sheet of ice. But they didn't. They hit the island because of intentionality. I, I'm just, that story is just mind blowing to me. And it just goes to show the power of the human spirit. Uh, it goes to show the resolve that we have when our backs are against the wall. And it goes to show how important it is that we are very deliberate and intentional about what we're trying to do in our lives. And if you're not, you might get lucky. Sure. You might. But the odds of it are significantly reduced.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  And I, and I have to say this intentionality of action and intentionality of thought. How often do we sit with thought, drifting thought? Oh, I hate this circumstance. And then that's it. And we lack the intentionality of, well, what am I going to do about it? What does this mean? What action should I take? I, I hate this social situation. Great. What are you going to do?

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  But we, we, we're not intentional, even with our thought process, which a lack of intentionality and thought generates a lack of intentionality of action. And I just want to call that out, right? Because people, we sometimes think, well, I'm acting, so thus I'm being intentional. No, you, you can be drifting in action, right? Those guys could easily just drift with the ocean and lack the intentionality to get to their destination.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Well, this is why, when you ask a hundred people, if, if I asked 10 people on the street today, I said, hey man, how you doing? Nine of them, maybe 10 of them would say, I'm, I'm doing good. I'm busy.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  What is that? Okay. So like, why are you telling me that? What? I mean, I do it too, right? Like I say that, that's my default too. As if busy is the goal. I don't want to be busy. I want to be productive. I want to be efficient. I want to do things I enjoy, but I just don't, I don't want to be just busy. So I, I like that. I like what you say. Here's an interesting thought. Have you Kip ever been, and I can think of a handful right off hand here, been in a situation where maybe it's a, maybe it's a Halloween party. We got Halloween coming up. You go to a Halloween party, neighbors and everybody's getting together and you go and you're like, God, this is stupid. I don't want to do this. I don't want to be here. I don't like these, this is dumb.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  And then you look around and everybody else, all the other men in the area like are having fun.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  They're, they're there, they're engaged, they're laughing, they're playing games, you know, they're just having a good time. What's the difference? Well, not the environment, the, the environment's the same for both of you. The only difference is your attitude about it. And I have had in moments of, of clarity, been just a bummer, just a downer, you know, just a jerk with my family when I'm at an outing or an event, you know, being a, being a party pooper. And in a moment of clarity thought, you know what? Like, I'm not going to be this way. I'm actually going to have fun tonight. I'm going to, I'm going to have a good, positive attitude about this. And lo and behold, all of a sudden that evening becomes pretty dang enjoyable.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Same set of circumstances. I just made a decision to show up better.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I love, all right. Nate Brodeur. I got passed over for a promotion last month and the job went, uh, to a guy I trained.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  I've been with the company 14 years. Part of me wants to walk. Part of me thinks, uh, that's just my ego talking. How do you tell the difference between pride and knowing your worth?

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, it's definitely ego talking. I mean, I can hear it in your, in your question, right? I got passed over by a guy I trained. I've been here for 14 years. Like it's definitely ego. I'm not saying it's unwarranted. I'd be frustrated too. I think most people would. The question is not, should you be frustrated about it or not? The question is, what do you do with that information? So yeah, maybe, maybe you do feel so disrespected, so overlooked that you should find another place to work and I, and I'm, I'm willing to entertain that idea. I think most people would say, oh no, just like put your head down. No, I'm, I'm willing to explore the idea that your company doesn't appreciate you to the degree they should.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  And in that case, yeah, you should, and you should have been doing this all along. This is one thing I tell guys who are employed. Just because you're employed, doesn't mean you can't be unemployed tomorrow. So you better be out there networking. You better be formulating connections. You better be making sales calls. You better be in, at industry events. You better be around the movers and shakers, even if you're completely satisfied with your job, you better be doing that. Because if something like this happens,

• 42:00Speaker 00

  you can say, hey, look, I really appreciate the last 14 years. Um, I was really looking forward to that promotion. I think I deserved that promotion. And ABC company over here seems to think that what I offer is going to be pretty valuable. So

• 42:15Speaker 00

  peace, I'm out. But you can't do that if you haven't been doing this in the meantime of building these networks and, and, and building social capital. So I'm willing to entertain the idea that you should leave. Now, I'm not saying naturally, like automatically you should, because maybe there's a real reason. And this is where self-reflection comes in, and I think this will help you overcome your ego.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Your ego is lying to you.

• 42:43Speaker 00

  Okay. Your ego is telling you that you're more valuable than you are, that you're probably better than you are, that you're more capable than you are, that somebody owes you something because of 14 years, that you trained this guy. So now you deserve it. You're next in line. Those are all lies. That is not true. None of that is true. Where it starts to become healthy is when you stop lying to yourself and you start honestly assessing and evaluating your performance. So I would start with saying, okay, why did I get passed over for, for the promotion?

• 43:23Speaker 00

  And don't say, well, because of nepotism and because of politics and like, no. Some of that may be true. I'm not saying that it isn't, but you can't do anything about that. What you can do is your performance. I always laughed, you know, when I was, even still, like sometimes I'll hear kids who will say, oh yeah, well, or even parents, like my kid doesn't play because the coach plays these other kids and.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  His favorites.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  You want to know what coaches want to do?

• 43:55Speaker 00

  Win. I've, I've never met a coach who's like, I don't really want to win.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  That's the only thing coaches want to do is win.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  Now you might not agree with how they do it. Okay, that's a different story. But they're going to put players in who are gonna help them win.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  That's it. You might not agree with that strategy that they're implementing, but they're trying to win. Like, why is that confusing? So what it shows me is that we're just lying to ourselves. We're not being honest about the way that we're showing up. And I would do some deep reflection. I would also talk with my supervisors and say, hey, I was, I was really hoping that I would get a shot at this promotion. And I've done a lot of reflection. Here's where I think I'm strong. Here's where I think I'm weak. And by the way, you should say that to your supervisors. And I'm very curious.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  From your perspective, what is it that I can do so that should this opportunity present itself in the future? I will be given a, a very serious consideration for the position. This is the self-reflection that's required that gets you over the ego, the lies that you're telling yourself.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Totally. And Ryan, you said it perfect, right? Because most guys would be tempted to say, hey, could you let me know why I didn't get the promotion? If you guys hear, Ryan didn't say that. He says, what do I need to do so I don't get overlooked for a future promotion? That's a different story, right? One is judgment, one is seeking clarity for a future state, right? You're going to get a better answer from the supervisor when it's the latter, right? Not a, you know, why didn't you promote me? Here's the funny thing too, to consider. Marcus, they probably knew that you would potentially be upset and they still promoted the other guy.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Like, let that sink in. They knew that this would probably, because anyone logically would be like, hey, you know, how is, how is Nate going to respond? He's been here longer. Yeah, but the other guy's

• 45:58Speaker 01

  more ideal for the promotion. So they probably knew. And they still promoted the other guy. So there's obviously probably a gap, right? Assuming it's not the other problem of, of favorites or, you know, some other them not seeing your value. So yeah, I, I would get super clear on, on the value. And, and one thing that I would, like a, a tip that I've done in the past for people is um, another way that you can have this conversation is, hey, boss, um, when an opportunity for promotion comes up in the future, I want to ensure that I'm the ideal candidate for it.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  What do you need to see from me over the next six months to ensure that you feel great about that decision? And then you document it and you execute and you follow up. So don't wait six months. A month later saying, hey, this is what I'm doing. This is what my plan. Have you seen the results? Am I progressing in the right direction? Oh, yeah, you are. Okay, great. Follow up in another next month, right? And, and validate. You own your career. You validate what's required. You step in and you hold them accountable to their commitment of the promotion based upon your adjustments that you're making.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. I, and, and I would also say, I, I want to underscore this because I, I kind of glossed over it. I don't want it to be a throwaway line, but when you are talking with people about your performance, you need to acknowledge your weaknesses. Men, men won't do this. They'll, they'll just say all the things that's good, like, oh, I do this and I do this and I do that. And all of that might be true.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  But what's interesting is just because you don't say it doesn't mean people don't see it. So if you're, maybe you're, maybe you're not, you don't have a whole lot of attention to detail. You know, you're diligent, you're fast, you work hard, you get there on time, but your attention to detail is kind of horrendous. You should say that. It's, it's not like if you say it, this is the first time they're coming to this revelation. They already know.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  But what they want to know is that you know.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  You know it.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you can actually fix it. And you know what's interesting? The same is true about romantic relationships too. Guys will date women and they'll say, I'm this and I'm a provider and I'm strong and I'm capable. And they'll list all the things like in a resume, all the things they're great at. And then, and then she'll say, well, like, what is it that you're trying to work on? It's like, uh, I'm trying to work on being more humble, you know, like whatever, right? Just like throwaway bull crap answer. It's like, no, tell, tell her. You know, maybe you're impatient. That, that's me, right? And it's okay to say, you know what? Yeah, I, I do these things well, but I know about myself that I'm impatient. And that's something I'm actively working on. That is way more endearing

• 49:00Speaker 00

  to a woman or to a client or to a boss than just bloating and beating on your chest and telling them how wonderful you are. When everybody else around you can see exactly what your flaws are and you seem to be the only one who doesn't acknowledge it.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Totally. You know, it's last week I had a debrief for, for one of my clients. I had this, you know, pretty large engagement. And we did a, a debrief or AAR, which we call it, right? What you guys call it in the military and we call it in the iron council. And um, it was funny because at first it was like grabbing, I mean, it was just like, I couldn't get them to give me any feedback, right? Oh, the positive was all great, right? Oh, this was so great. This is so great. Okay. What can we improve? No one would say anything, right? And, and so I went first and I was like, well, okay, well, here's the areas that I think um, I could have improved on. And I, I went off my list.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Making it okay. And it was funny is once I did that, then they're like, oh, you know what? One thing that comes to mind, I'm like, no, they had that in their mind. They were just unwilling to probably share it until they heard me share it. And it was a really great experience. I walked off with, with feedback, with some additional things that I didn't consider for myself. And before we wrapped up the call, Ryan, this was what was so funny is, is this HR leader goes, he's like, you know what, Kip? I've hired and dealt with tons of keynotes speakers throughout my entire career. And every single one says they want to do this. They want to debrief and get feedback. He's like, not once have I ever heard anyone share what they did wrong.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  He's like, dude, that was awesome. Like you're, like, like we don't question your integrity or your desire to be great at what you do. Because you're the first one that's ever even saw their own flaws in what they did.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  And they're like, thank you so much, you know? And, and I'm like, no, thank you, right? Like, I, I appreciate you guys, you know, having this call and blah, blah, blah. But, but it was like profound to your point. It made a massive difference. And, and our relationship for sure is better off for having had that conversation.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  You know what's really interesting about this concept, Kip, is if you do it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hesitate a little bit on the way I say this, but because we have to do it for the right reason. Otherwise it becomes manipulation. But this, when you learn this skillset, it's almost a weapon. It is so disarming to people. And so you have to do it for the right reason. But imagine this. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna make up a few things about, about Asia. And I, I don't know if this is true or not, but let's say you guys.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a blasphemy online.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  But let's say you guys are, you're upset with each other about something, anything, right? And you've been frustrated in the past couple of days with each other. And she, this is accurate, right? So far, so good.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you didn't hear me, but like tongue in cheek, I said, when you're like something, I said, well, actually everything.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  And so she comes to you and she says, hey, um, I've been thinking about it over the past couple of days and I want to say that I was really upset and some of the way that I responded was a little irrational. And I owe you an apology because I know I can be quick to judgment and I can be a little flippant at times. And uh, I also know that my emotions tend to run a lot of my decision-making. And I just want to tell you, I'm sorry for that. I can be more rational when we have these situations.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Like, like, are you gonna, are you gonna think less of her? Or are you gonna, are you gonna be, is it more endearing? It's like, oh, my gosh, like, thank you.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  Refreshing, and it goes back to what you said. I already thought those things about her anyway.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Totally, totally.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  So it's not like she's exposing something. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I didn't know this about you. Of course I knew this about you. But man, it makes me feel good that you're aware of it. Right? And that we're aligned. And what are, what am I more likely to do?

• 53:24Speaker 01

  The same?

• 53:25Speaker 00

  No, you know what? I was a little overly emotional as well. I overreacted as well. Right? And we, and we create psychological safety when we create this environment where we can admit our shortcomings and have some humility to do the conversation. And the complete opposite is true. When we double down, what do we invite? When we double down in pressure, we invite that same pressure and resistance in return.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  So I, I just wanted to put the disclaimer out there of weaponizing because I've seen guys do this, faulty humility. I've seen, I've seen men do this. I've heard stories of men doing this and they're good, really good, very manipulative. I had, uh, one of my stepfathers was this way, very, very manipulative and knew how to use that strategy as a weapon, not as something that was sincere and genuine.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. All right, Nate, we, we gave you a solid answers on that one. All right, Cody Ransom, I hired my best friend two years ago. Bad idea.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  Fire him.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  I added that part.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  I already know the answer. Fire him.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  He's not cutting it. Everyone on the team knows it. How do I handle this without losing a 20 year old friendship? All right, so we're all, he's in agreement. Get rid of him. Yeah. The question, how does he do it without ruining his friendship?

• 54:46Speaker 00

  I mean, you might, right? You might. I mean, that's, that's the reality of the situation.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Theoretically, it's two way street. You can't control what he does.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So you might. I think that's the first thing you need to realize is that, hey, this is, this relationship is potentially on the chopping block and, and we can be realistic about that, which I think gives you some ammunition to do this correctly. And let's, I'll just do a little role play with you, Kip. You're, you're a friend of 20 years. I hired you, uh, you're not cutting it. Um, first of all, we, we'd have a lot of conversations before, like, hey, Kip, look, I hired you to do X, Y, and Z, and you do really good with X and Y, but you're not so good with Z. And I want to have you here. I like having my friends work here. I like being around people I like.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  But as a businessman, I need you to be able to do Z better than you have been doing it. And if you can do that, then cool, we can, like, let's keep this going because I like it. And if you can't do it, then either you need to make a decision or I need to make a decision. Not that we can't be friends, not that I think ill of you, but this is what the job requires. So there's a lot of conversations leading up to this, and maybe you've already had some of those conversations and it's still not happening. If you haven't had the conversations, have those conversations now. But if you're past that, very simply, I would just say, I, I would just be direct, as direct as I possibly could, not rude, but direct.

• 56:10Speaker 00

  I'd say, Kip, um, hey, uh, I've got to have a difficult conversation with you. And, and, and I'm gonna pause real quick. Jefferson Fisher talks about this. A lot of people, what they'll do is they'll do the, um, I, I think he called it like a gratitude sandwich or something where it's like, you give a compliment and then you give them the bad news and then you give another compliment.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  And then a compliment, yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  Don't do that. You just, there's no, there's no, there's no bread on the sandwich. Just get the meat to them.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  So.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  I have to say this really quick, Ryan. I have, I have literally communicated with an employee after a termination conversation and they weren't sure if they had got terminated or if they got promoted.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  Because you were complimenting him so much?

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't do it. Another manager did it. They had no idea what was going on, right? They're like, oh, he was saying that, like, I've been doing so great and appreciated me. And then they're like, we're gonna have, and they didn't even use the word terminated. They used the term like, we're gonna have to make some pivots and adjustments with your position. You're gonna be like, so they, and the employee's like, am I getting promoted? Yeah. And you're like, uh, no, dude, you got fired. Like, oh, my gosh. So, yeah. Be very clear.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so, so back to the role play, I'd say, hey, Kip, I need to have a difficult conversation with you. Uh, we've talked about this in the past about X, Y, and Z. And as I said, you do X and Y very well, but Z continues to lag behind. And from a business perspective, I've wrestled with this, but I am making the decision at this point to let it, you go. I love you. I care about you. I want the best for you. I am going to, you can stay a couple more days or what, you know, whatever, whatever you, whatever your situation is. Um, I will help you find another job. I will give you a good, an honest, but a good recommendation.

• 58:11Speaker 00

  And I hope that this doesn't hurt our friendship, but this is the decision that I am going to make as the owner of this business in the best interest of what we're doing here.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:24Speaker 00

  Now, when you say that, again, you might, it might, he might be pissed and it might really hurt the relationship, but you know what you did? You acted with honor. You acted with integrity. You owned the conversation and you were a man. You can hold your head up high because here, here's the alternative. This is, this is not the way to do it. Hey, Kip, um, you know, I, I want to have a conversation. I, I really, I love having you here. You do such an amazing job. Everybody loves you and you help our clients and you've really helped us grow. And man, it's just been so good having you here. But, you know, like some of the people around are kind of having a hard time and we're,

• 59:08Speaker 00

  we're, business is slow these days and we're trying to like restructure and, and organize our business the right way. And I hate, I don't want to, I really don't want to. I, I hate to have to do this, but like we, I can't afford to have you here anymore. Please, like, don't be mad. I don't want to ruin the relationship. It's not even my decision. Like, I'm kind of forced, my hand is forced, I have to do this. Now, look, I'm exaggerating, right?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  But that is how people have conversations and that's not how a man would have that conversation. A man says, I am making this decision for these reasons. I hope this does not impact our personal relationship, but also this is my decision.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  There's a good scene in, um, in Apollo 13. I love this scene. Tom Hanks, John Lovell, is talking to Gary Sinise, and I can't remember Gary Sinise's character, but Gary says, do you want me to go talk with the guy upstairs? And Tom Hanks playing John Lovell says, no, this was my call to keep him from going on the, on the mission. John Lovell says, no, you don't need to talk to anybody upstairs. This was my call. That is how men have difficult convers, no, this was my decision. You don't need to go talk to anybody else.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  I'm not dumping it on anybody else. This was the decision that I made for these reasons. And then you just have to let the chips fall where they may.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and what's, I think, a profound thing to consider here is weak leaders, when they terminate people, employees don't have the clarity to learn and grow.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  But when you terminate correctly, there's the opportunity for them to grow from it because you were clear why they're being terminated. But when the termination is shrouded in all this gray and it has nothing to do with you as a person, how do you grow from that? Oh, you don't. You're just an unfortunate bystander due to some riff. Well, but you made it on the list for the riff. Why did I end up on the list? Because you're not good in these areas. That I can do something with.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  That I can leave and go, got it. I need to improve in these areas. And so, you know, you look at those scenarios, it was like, which one serves the individual being terminated? And it's the one where we, where we're clear, where we, um, are straightforward in our communication and provide the necessary details so they can do something with it.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  So not only is it ideal for us, right? But it's ideal for the individual.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  I, just as a, a trait or, or a personality of mine, I hate ambiguity. And I, I don't know many people who appreciate it. It's hard, it's hard to get fired or get dumped or whatever. But I would much rather have that than just be on the line forever.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  When I was in sales, it was, we would all, I was trained in sales to get to a yes, obviously, or a no.

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Those are the only two things. There's no, there's no ambiguity. So when I started going on sales calls for my financial planning practice, let's say I'm going to visit you, Kip, like, hey, would you like to move forward with this plan? Ideally, you'll say yes. But you might say, well, I don't know, gee, let me think about it. I'll be, okay. Hey, look, and the way I was trained to say, hey, look, I understand you have to think about it. How long do you need? Well, I need, I need a couple of days. Okay, so on Wednesday, I'm going to call you and it, and that'll give you the time to think. And I'll either hear, yes, you want to move forward, or no, I'm not interested at this time. And you'll give me a reason why it doesn't fit for you. Is that fair?

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay. I can, I can deal with that. Now, if I call you on Wednesday and you're like, yeah, I don't know, I'm still thinking. Here's what I would say is, hey, Kip, look, I know these are big decisions to make. Is there information that I can get you that would help you make a better decision? No, I just need to think about it more. Okay. Well, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm going to assume at this point, because we had this conversation, that you're, that it's a no.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  And if at any point down the road, you change your mind, you have my phone number. I do not deal in ambiguity. I don't, I don't do that. It's a yes, or it's a no. That's it.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love it. Um, research, University College of London, took a large sample size of individuals, connected them to these wires, uh, to give them electrical shocks. Three groups were created. One group, they told you would not get shocked, even though they're connected. You will receive zero electrical shocks. Group number two, you will absolutely get shocked. And group number three is, you may or may not get shocked. Which group had the highest levels of stress?

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Oh, the may or may not, I'm sure.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's uncertainty.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Right? Uncertainty is far worse than bad news.

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  So it's like, clarity is kindness, even if it's bad news. The uncertainty is, is where people get sideways. This is why, this is why rifts or like layoffs in organizations are so rough. They're rough one is because there's no clarity of why they chose the people they chose. They think they're saving people that way, by the way. They go, oh, well, you know, we're, we're not attacking anybody. We just chose the sample of 10,000 people to lay off. Well, guess what that means for me? That means I could randomly be part of the next group. And it's not based upon merit. Awesome. And, and when, if anyone's ever been part of an organization that has had

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  layoffs, dude, productivity just tanks, because everyone's uncertain. They're like, I don't want to bust my ass today in this job and like, give them all my heart if I'm gone next week.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  And so everyone sits around in this yuckiness of uncertainty, and it was curated by leadership because of their lack of courage to actually communicate why they're laying off whoever's they laid off. So they just be vague instead. It's, it's complete cowardice.

• 1:05:49Speaker 00

  And that's, that's what it is. It's coward. You're just trying to preserve. That's, it's self-preservation. I would definitely be in this, like, if I could volunteer for a group, I'm so dumb, I will, I'm actually like, I want to be in that second group. Cause I'm curious, like, what kind of shock? Like, does it hurt? Like, how mu, like, I'm so dumb.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Sounds kind of fun.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  I want to know what this shock is like. I'm very curious now. All right. What do we got?

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  Let's do this as the last question, Kip.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Okay, sounds good. All right. Jesse Whitaker. My thirteen-year-old would rather be on the screen than in the mountains with me. Do I make him go or wait for him to come around?

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  No, you make, you make him go. 100%.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  What do you mean, wait, wait for him to come around? Yeah, you know what? I think that's an overall strategy. In fact, Ryan, I think your next book is, wait for them to come around. It's the title. Just wait for them to come around. You just do you and you just wait for your kids to come around. You don't need to parent them. Just, just wait.

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  No, you make them go. You make them go, but you know, but you also, look, I'm not, I'm not being a hard ass. Like, take him into consideration, you know, maybe he doesn't want to go hunting, but he'll go camping. Or maybe, maybe include him. Yeah, maybe include him and say, hey bud, like, we're going camping this weekend. He's like, I don't want to go. It's like, well, we're all going as a family, so let's wrap our heads around it. But why don't, why don't we do this? Why don't you come to the grocery store with me? And why don't you help me get the, the food and the packing list for, for groceries and we'll cook, we'll cook together. Um, or, you know, what, what's a thing that you would want to do? Like, do you want to try fishing? Maybe go fly fishing? Do you want me to rent some side by

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  sides and we'll go hit the, hit the sand dunes? Like, you can take people into consideration and make it fun and enjoyable. Cause you do, like, if you take him and you are going to, you're not going to wait for him to come around, then you should really bust your butt trying to make it something that he actually really enjoys. So the next time you guys go do the thing, he's like, oh, no, I remember we did that. And that was a lot of fun.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  Hmm. Totally, totally. You know what I've done a couple of times? I'm sure you've done this, Ryan, is put your kids in charge.

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Like, I, I've done that. I remember, I don't know why this trip is coming to mind, but I took the boys, uh, snow shoeing, uh, we, we're snow camping. And we got into some gnarly, gnarly space. And it was getting dark. Um, the snow is just insanely deep. Kids are getting wet because they're sweating and we're trying to keep our heart rate down. It was, it was gonna, it was a rough night, to say the least. And I remember one of my boys was in the back and he was like, Dad, I'm having a hard time, right? And I was like, all right. And I, I, we paused for a second. And then I was like, all right, Ian, I need you to lead from the front. Your

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  responsibility, I need you to make us a clear path. So it's easier for the rest of us, you know what I mean, to get to a campsite, right? Can you do that for me, dude? Lights up, you know, it's like, yeah, man, I got this. You know, it's like, man, so like, let your kids, stop having them be the passenger to the camping trip, right? And, and put them in charge of something. Put them, you know, you lean on them, you know, uh, figuring stuff out. And, and it's amazing what our kids will do when we give them some mantle or responsibility. And even that hardship almost becomes a badge now. They're not having to put up with it. They're enduring it.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  And they're pushing through it. Why? Because they're in charge and they're not just being told what to do.

• 1:09:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, I had a funny experience, uh, when we came back from the lake, uh, this summer at your place. Um, I just, I, I was tired, but I also, again, just give as much responsibility as reasonably appropriate. And I just said, hey, dude, you're, to my oldest, I'm like, you're, you're driving. He's like, you want me to drive? I'm like, yeah, you're driving home. And so he drove home and it was awesome. Like, I got to hang out there and relax a little bit. He drove home. He was feeling pretty proud. He got us there, obviously safely. Like, it was good. But the more that we give, yeah, the more we give our kids responsibility, like you're talking about, the more they feel included, the more bought in they are, the more

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  proud they are of the thing that they're doing. And so, yeah, maybe with your son, it is saying, hey, look, um, you're in charge of food Saturday. Like, breakfast, lunch and dinner. What, what are we doing? I'll, I'll be here to help you, but like, what are we, you tell me what we're doing. And we'll go get the food together. I'll help you prepare it and cook it. But, but you're in charge. That to a young man, a 13-year-old is like, cool. That's, that sounds fun. I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm down for that.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Cool, man. Well, we got the typical calls to action, right? Probably the Iron Council. And, you know, we're all in this holiday season, right? Years coming into an end, you know, and we, I feel like we've said this every time during this time of season for the last eight years. Don't wait until January. Don't be lame. If you know you need to improve in areas of your life, there is no tomorrow. That's a word that represents something that doesn't exist. You got today. So what are you doing about it? And stop drifting and, and start taking some action. So join us in the Iron Council. To learn more, go to orderofman.com/ironcouncil.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  Let me throw one other thing in. Oh, go, sorry. Yep. Keep going. You're gonna hit it. Keep going.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Oh, we have our war room, um, on October 14th.

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. So tonight, as of the release of this episode.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah. So, um, and that's 6:00 PM Eastern. And that's orderofman.com.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  8:00 PM Eastern.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  8:00 PM Eastern. Okay. And that's orderofman.com/warroom to register and attend that call. Okay. Do they need to register ahead of time to get the link? Or can they just go to that URL and join last minute?

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  You can. I mean, we'd, we'd like to have an idea of how many people are going to be there so I could be prepped and ready for everybody. But, um, if you go to orderofman.com/warroom, you can RSVP. If you're just hearing this late and you're like, oh, I want to jump on, go to orderofman.com/warroom. Because at eight o'clock, that link will take you directly to, uh, to, to the war room, to, to the actual, uh, room itself. And we're going to be talking about five fears that you need to overcome as a man, and specifically how you're going to do it. And then we're also going to weave in, uh, some ways that the Iron Council is going to help expedite that process for you. Cause you could, I mean, you could do it on your own. A lot of guys are, they're playing, they're playing alone, they're playing solo. Um, but when you start banding with other people,

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  it's pretty incredible how quickly and how much traction you pick up as fast as you do. So we'll talk about that as well. But orderofman.com/warroom, all one word.

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  Sweet. All right, guys. Appreciate the questions. Appreciate, uh, you guys tuning in and being present. Hopefully we'll see you tonight in the war room. And then we'll be back on Friday for our Friday field notes. But until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you are meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.