Daughters Who are Dating, Betrayed in Business, and Divided Faith at Home | ASK ME ANYTHING

Ryan Michler and Kipp Sorensen tackle five questions from the Order of Man community in this episode of Ask Me Anything. They discuss making a major career change after decades in public service, finding forgiveness after betrayal, setting boundaries while serving family and friends, navigating different faiths within a marriage, and protecting a teenage daughter without damaging the relationship. Along the way, Ryan and Kipp explore entrepreneurship, AI, service, martyrdom, grace, parenting, dating, and the importance of maintaining influence through trust rather than control. The conversation also includes a wholesome discussion about defending the people we care about and a look at Ryan's new studio and Origin gear. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - New Studio, New Setup 10:50 - The Importance of Nuance 17:40 - Origin Boots and Hunting Gear 21:55 - Retirement, Risk and Entrepreneurship 35:00 - Why Retirement Isn't the Goal 39:49 - Forgiveness After Betrayal 50:59 - When Everyone Depends on You 57:00 - The Trap of Martyrdom 1:00:36 - When Spouses No Longer Share a Faith 1:08:32 - Protecting Your Daughter Without Pushing Her Away 1:14:10 - Setting Boundaries With Your Daughter's Dates 1:18:13 - Closing and Final Call to Action Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  But if you're reasonable about it and you explain to your daughter about like, hey bud, like Steve's coming over today and, and that's great. I'm really excited for you. Here's the four things that Steve needs to do. He needs to come to the door when he gets here. He needs to call me Mr. Mickler. He needs to tell me what the plan is. He needs to come sit on the couch and talk with me. I will be respectful of him. I will not embarrass you. I will not mistreat him and, and, and everything will be good. And if we can do that, we're good. Great. Have fun. But if we can't meet these expectations and, and you're not willing to agree to my expectations, or I'm not willing to agree with yours, then we don't have a deal here. I'm still in charge. I'm your dad. That's how I look at it. And that's how I will look at it.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Kip, what's up, man? I hope you're doing well. Um, in my brand new studio. So if guys aren't listening to this on YouTube or watching it on YouTube, they probably should. I feel a little bit like the masculine version of Mr. Rogers while I'm sitting over here in my brand new studio.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Well, and I, you're enjoying that chair a lot too, right? Like, you know,

• 1:04Speaker 00

  so comfortable.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  If all of a sudden you don't hear Ryan, I'm like, yeah, I'll let you guys know if he's, he fell asleep, you know, mid-episode in his man chair.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  Oh, it is, man. And I've got another leather chair right there. And I've got like, if you guys haven't seen the studio, I've got all my favorite things. The cool thing about this studio though, Kip, is I, um, well, you and I both know Johnny. Johnny Loretty is a good friend of mine. He's a good friend of yours. Uh, we've hunted together. We've broken bread together. He's served our organization dutifully and faithfully. And he's just a good, decent human being. Well, his wife is an interior designer. Her name's Lauren and she's phenomenal. And if Johnny messes that one up, um, I'm gonna chase her. I shouldn't say that. If Johnny messes that one up.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  From the episode.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I believe that. If Johnny messes that one up, shame on him. But no, she's, she's amazing. Um, she put together some mock-up images of what the studio, by the way, if you mess it up with Asia, I'm gonna chase her around too. Okay. So I just want to be really clear on that. I do not discriminate against that. Um,

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. All men protect your women from Ryan.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  Um, no, she did an amazing job with the studio and she put some mock-ups and she said, hey, this would be cool. Look at this. Try this. Tweak that. Adjust that. And this is kind of a brainchild of, of Johnny's wife, Lauren. And she did amazing. But the cool thing about it is all of this stuff is, is mine. Like, I don't have a design team. I didn't spend, you know, 20 grand on bringing a team in here. Um, you know,

• 2:51Speaker 01

  You didn't spend five grand on some deer horns?

• 2:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, there's sheds I've found. I've got, you can't see it here, but there's an impala my son shot in Africa. There's pictures up here on the wall of my, I'll have to look exactly, but I think he's my great, great, great uncle who built a brewery in central California. And I've got awesome pictures here. And I've got skulls from the animals I've shot, the animals my sons have shot, and my grandpa's pipe, and pictures of my grandfather. So it's very personalized. You know, this, this chair right here I'm sitting in, um, you can't see it, but on the side, it's

• 3:33Speaker 00

  actually scratched and it says, it's scratched with a fingernail. It's a name. And it's my second son's name. And the interesting thing about it is, I thought initially it was my second son who did it. But then I realized the E in his name was backwards. And I realized, oh, it wasn't my second son who did that. It was my youngest son trying to entrap my second son, his older brother. And I said,

• 4:02Speaker 01

  In trouble, yeah.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, trying to get him in trouble. I said, did you do this? He's like, no. I'm like, why is that E backwards? He's like, I did it. I'm sorry.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  And, uh, yeah, so he's like fingernail scratched the crap out of my brand new leather chair. So there's history, man. There's stories here. I love it. I'm excited about it.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  That's funny. Funny. All right, man. You have a wholesome, uh, segment for us?

• 4:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've got two. So number one, there's this, there's this big thing. I don't know if you've seen it, Kip, but there's this big thing. Over the weekend, there has been a viral video that emerged and it's a husband and a wife and they're at a Giants game, I believe. And this woman comes down and she's got a bunch of different food for her and her husband and her baby. And she's got the baby on her chest on like one of those little carrier things or whatever. And she's just doing all the things. And the husband is caught basically saying, oh, did you forget something? Or like something like that? And this husband has just been run through the wringer.

• 5:15Speaker 00

  And I, I try to be a little cautious of trying to make an argument over something that, you know, you only catch a glimpse of. I'm not great at it. Sometimes I fall right into it as well. But you know what I thought was wholesome? I don't know this guy's story. I don't know her story. I know nothing about them. What I do know is I saw the video and I was like, what a scumbag. Your wife's up there getting three or four things of food. She's got a baby on her chest. Like, what a scumbag. That was my initial reaction. But what was wholesome about it is she actually came out, uh, a day or two later, defending her husband. And she said, hey, he's, he's a

• 5:58Speaker 00

  great guy. Like, he's, he was dealing with some, some difficult circumstances because I think she said either a family member or a friend, I think it was a friend, had just died and he was struggling with it and suffering with it. And so, you know, we wanted to go to the game and just enjoy a night out. And I wanted to like, take care of him. I thought that was awesome, man. Like, we, we pit women and men against each other all the time without realizing the nuance of the situation. And should he have, look, if your friend died, like horrible, I'm not discounting that, horrible. Should you help your wife still? Yeah. I mean, as, as men, we still

• 6:39Speaker 00

  have responsibilities regardless of our external circumstances. But for her to come to bat for her husband, I just thought was top-notch, just high class. Because we have this society where everybody will throw each other under the bus, even people you love and care about and have been with each other for a long time at a whim, just to get a little social clout. And from what I could tell, she didn't do that. She stood by her husband and said, hey, look, like, he's a great guy. He's a great husband. Here's what he's dealing with. I wanted to serve him. Props to her. And, and she's been dubbed mom of the year. Maybe even wife of the year. Like, pretty incredible,

• 7:21Speaker 00

  you know? And I know there's a lot of stories like that that don't get viewed and looked at, but it just reminds us to look at some nuance. Again, I, I think the guy should have like gone up and got food or whatever, for sure. I'm not saying, two things can exist at once. But I just thought that was pretty cool of her. And, uh, props to mom of the year and potentially even wife of the year.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's crazy, man. Like, uh, we've, we've both read the book, The Four Agreements, right? And in, in that book, he talks about poison. Like, our words can be black magic, I think is the term that he uses in that book. And to your point, man, it's so easy, so easy in so many circumstances, whether it's your spouse or people that you work with, people that you respect, and then someone you know talks ill of them. And most people don't defend them, right? Most people don't go like, hey, you know, like, I don't think that's the case. Or have you considered this? They don't challenge the thought process. They instead, in most cases, they double

• 8:28Speaker 01

  down, right? And, you know, how, how unfortunate that is, you know, that we might have people in our lives that, that don't stand for us, you know, that are so easily, um, self-focused, maybe, that they're willing to, um, be okay with speaking ill of you, you know, when you're, when you're not in the room. And so I, I love that call to action, you know? And, and it's, and it is black magic. You know, that is bad stuff. That is poison. It doesn't do anybody any good. And it's lazy thinking, right? And so if we can maybe show up in a way where we not just not, we don't have to necessarily argue with everybody, even challenge their thought process, right? In those circumstances, I, I think we'd all be a little bit better off.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  Man, Kip, if you only knew how often I need to defend you in private, I just, you'd think the

• 9:19Speaker 01

  You're like, man, yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  It's all I do.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  It's like a full time job. Trying to get people not to be mad at you.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  No, actually, in sincerity, I mean, I like, I like to bust your chops a little bit, a little bit, but in sincerity, the opposite is probably true. I mean, I, I can't tell you, and I want to pay you this compliment. I can't tell you how often I hear from people. It's almost annoying, quite frankly, at times, but I hear from people who are like, oh yeah, Kip's, Kip did so amazing on this and Kip's leadership and Kip's this and Kip's that. I'm like, hey, bro, like, I'm

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Enough about Kip.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  I'm here too. No, it's, I'm actually

• 9:58Speaker 01

  We are changing the podcast. Yeah, I was, I was gonna joke. Yeah, we're changing it from Order of Man to Order of Ryan. So that way, no one loses sight of what's this about. I'm just joking.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  That's right, man. This is ego driven. No, I, I just wanted to pay you that compliment. I mean, I, I, I've never met a person who just didn't think so highly of you. And I think it's a testament to the kind of man you are. I'm inspired by you, you know, I, I, I see what you do with your business. I see the way that you, uh, lead your family, uh, the way that you show up. You know, we've broken bread together. We spend time together. We hunt together. I mean, the only, the only critique I would have of you, Kip, is we gotta get you on more hunts. But outside of that, man, I just, I love the way you show up and, um, and, uh, yeah, you're, you're a good example to me and, and obviously everybody else who I talk with. So, yeah. Wholesome.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Well, and I appreciate, and I appreciate that, like, I really do. Um, and even with all that, do we mess up?

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely. All the time, you know, and even yesterday.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Sometimes, and I know I piss you off sometimes and it's just like, it is what it is, dude.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  I piss myself off. You know, I was doing some reflection yesterday and I'm like, hey, moron, you know, get your crap together. So, uh,

• 11:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Good times.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  The way it goes. Hey, one more thing real quick. I wanted to just highlight these. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see these. My good friend, John Mylan, who you know, Kip, he just sent me some brand new boots from Origin. These things are 100% made and sourced in America, leather from America, threads from America, rivets from America, soles from America, built in the backwoods of Montana. Um, and I know that sounds like a really good commercial and maybe it is, but I'm just telling you, man, these boots and I, and I've got, I looked in my closet the other day, I've got four pairs of boots from Origin. Uh, and this is my newest pair. I can't remember what it's called, but it got, it's got the luck. And I reached out to

• 12:05Speaker 00

  them because I said, hey, I want a new pair of boots. And one thing I'm gonna do this year, I decided this is what I'm gonna do this year. So I'm, I'm going to Minnesota, which you've been to Minnesota with us for hunting. And I'm also going to Massachusetts, uh, later in the year to hunt out there. I'm tired of the camouflage stuff, man. Like, I don't think it's necessary. So I'm gonna piss a bunch of people off as I say it. The, the KUU guys and the, and the Sitka guys and the Under, everybody's pissed at me now, I know. But I'm gonna actually go, so I had Origin send me these boots, send me two pairs of their thick factory denim, send

• 12:49Speaker 00

  me a couple flannels, send me a couple hoodies. And I'm like, I'm gonna go hunt a deer the way that our grandfathers did. You know, like those pictures where you see old timers and they've got the hats on with the ear flaps and a red flannel on denim and boots and they look miserable and horrible, but they shot like 17 stud bucks that year and they've got them all lined up. I'm gonna do that this year. So I'm gonna hunt in

• 13:13Speaker 01

  With their iron sights.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Red, yeah, bro. Yeah, for sure. I'm gonna hunt in red flannel and denim this year, all, all by Origin. So wish me luck. Now there's some pressure here, but that's what I'm gonna do this year.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it. Well, and correct me if I'm wrong, right? It's not, it's not colors, right? It's just pattern disruption, right? So a flannel with a pattern on it, isn't that camouflage really? So.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  No, it is. So I love, so I'm a big Sitka guy. Like, I love Sitka. I love, I love Under Armour stuff. I love, uh, Origin stuff. I mean, those are the three companies that I mostly wear their camo. And you guys might be thinking, what the hell are these guys talking? Why are they talking about this? But no, it's, it's interesting to me. So, um, I know one of the big product developers for Sitka and what's interesting, and my friend and your friend, Matt Schmigdahl, um, has, has told me and he, he was watching some product research on Sitka camo. And he was saying, you know, like, the reason they make their pattern the way they do is if a deer actually looks up, the white spots on the camo look like the sky or the sun shining through

• 14:23Speaker 00

  a tree. So like you said, it's all pattern disruption. Uh, but the interesting thing about that was the guy said, he's like, I could have made this in purple or pink, but dudes don't buy purple. But it really doesn't matter because the way that the cone structure of the eye in a deer doesn't pick up on, on color. It just picks up on pattern disruption. So we'll see how red does this year. Um, I'm gonna shoot a monster, man.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  In flannel. Dude, I love it.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Monster. I'm gonna freeze my balls off, but I'm gonna shoot a friggin' monster.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  All right, let's get to some questions. We wasted way too much time.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Yes. No, no, it's, it's all good. Well, it, you know, when, when, when the, when it kicks off, if it has to do with talking good about me, it's, it's, it was a, is worth time, you know, is worth it. So.

• 15:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. I'll, I will, I will, you know what we should do? And instead, moving forward, instead of a wholesome segment, we should just do a Kip segment where we just rain down praises on you and that might, that might get you here on time.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yep, absolutely. Oh, man, that's funny. All right. Danny Skolnick, uh, our good, our good friend Danny, he has a long question. Danny, I'm gonna, I'm gonna break this down a little bit, okay? Um, so he says, after 25 years of life to public service, the idea of entrepreneurship is appealing. However, I'm scared. Entrepreneurship is not something I'm familiar with and frankly, didn't understand until I was 40 years old. Although safety and security is and always has been important to me, entrepreneurship hits at a level of freedom that is desirable. He says, I heard a powerful question recently. What would you

• 16:06Speaker 01

  do if you weren't afraid? My answers, my answer is I'd retire, but the question still remains, retire at 47 and do what? My options are terrifying. Go all in on one of my hobbies, which currently doesn't pay me anything. Start a YouTube channel, find another job while also collecting my pension, retire and just straight up deal with struggle and fears that come along the way and figure it out. I don't know. So my question for you and Ryan is, or Ryan and Kip, is how would you go about making this life-changing decision?

• 16:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, first of all, I love, I love Danny. Like, the way that he comes at questions, and I don't know if you were on the Friday call in the Iron Council last week, but Danny challenges me, like, me personally, not contentiously, but he always approaches whatever I say. Again, it's not contentious. He, it's curious. He always approaches whatever I say from out of left field. I have no idea anytime what, what Danny's gonna say, but it's always thoughtful. Um, and it, and it's always a little bit counter than the way my mind works. So there's a lot to unpack here. Um, well, first of all, uh, you know, you talk

• 17:22Speaker 00

  about moving from maybe a corporate environment over into an entrepreneur, entrepreneur situation, and you talk about risk. People, people, people don't get this right, I don't think. And I, and I, I'm not saying Danny's getting it wrong. I'm just saying he's not looking at the entire picture. Cause what he's saying is essentially, he said, well, it's risky and it's scary and I'm concerned. Okay. Is there no risk in your current job? That's, that's the way that we have been conditioned to believe. Kip, you, you've worked.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  Maybe I'll turn it over to you on this one because I haven't really been in corporate, in, in corporate America. I have not done that. A little bit when I was younger, but not really. But I think what most people think is there, as they, as they look at and say, well, if I start my own business, it's risky. Yeah, there's risk for sure. But is there any risk associated with your, with what you're doing now? I'm gonna turn that over to you and I've got some other thoughts, but I want to hear what you have to say about that.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've worked for large corporations, you know, Intel, Micron, you guys may have heard of them. And you know, it's ironic is in retrospect, there's more risk working for them than ever when I worked for myself. Because it's when I worked for them that I got outsourced. But when I worked for myself, the correlation between my effort and success was a hundred percent. Depending on what I did, there was a corresponding outcome. But sometimes when you work for corporate America, it doesn't matter how great you are. If you're a number in a department as part of this massive machine, you could be amazing

• 19:07Speaker 01

  at your job. And guess what? It doesn't matter. So yes, is there maybe potential risk? Or let's say it this way, is there more responsibility on you to determine the outcome? The answer is absolutely. But that doesn't necessarily correlate to risk. One way, look at it and say it's security, depending on the confidence level that you have, uh, in yourself and your abilities. And so I've ran into this issue when I started my own consulting company, geez, almost 20 years ago, where when I hired my first employee, I had a hard time hiring an employee. Cause I'd try to poach someone that worked for corporate America and say, hey,

• 19:46Speaker 01

  come work for me, the solo consultant owner operator, you'll be employee number two. And a lot of them were like, well, that seems risky. And I, I, I got really present to this conversation. I'm like, I don't think it's risky because depending on how hard you work determines success. But you can go somewhere else and you can do all those great things and it may not determine an outcome. So it's, it's what level of control and autonomy do you want?

• 20:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I, look, I agree with everything you're saying. Again, I haven't spent a whole lot of time in that market, in that sector, which I think I'm basically un-hireable at this point. Like, if Kip, you know, you said, hey, Ryan, can I hire to work for my company? I'm like, no, of course not. Like, I'm not gonna get on your Monday meeting and you tell me what I need to do today. I'm sorry. Like, I'm just not gonna do that. I would be un-hireable at this point. But I don't, yeah, I don't, I just don't think it's, I don't think it's more risky. I, and here's what I would say is, if more men shifted their, their idea of entrepreneurship versus

• 21:00Speaker 00

  employment, and they just said to themselves, regardless of what realm I'm in, whether I'm employed by an organization or employed by myself, I am the CEO, I am the entrepreneurship, or the entrepreneur. The only thing that changes based on employment or entrepreneurship is who your client is. So, Kip, if, if I go out and I start a leadership organization, which I think Order of Man is, right? So, we start this leadership organization. My client is the consumer. If I go work with you in your leadership organization, my client is you.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  It's not the, it's not the consumer. Your client is the consumer, but my client is you. And so, I serve the client on behalf of you. And I think if more people wrap their heads around that, they would realize that if you're employed, you're still an entrepreneur. You still have autonomy. You still have a client to serve. You just need to figure out who it is. And, and, and part of what I would say adds to the risk profile of being an employee is the development and proliferation of AI. Like, your job, 80% of our jobs are going

• 22:20Speaker 00

  away. If you're a CPA and you're listening to this, bro, I'd be fucking worried. And I'm using that word deliberately. Because if I can choose AI to break down the, the tax code that's ever-changing every single year, and telling me all the loopholes and advantages legally that I can take advantage of, I don't actually want a human to do that. If I'm trying to build out my estate planning profile and, and build a will and a trust, if you're an attorney, you better be worried. Because I don't actually want a human to do that. I

• 22:59Speaker 00

  want AI, as powerful as, as it is, I want AI to go in and find every loophole, every precedent, every example, every situation, that I could potentially exploit again legally, to position myself, my family and my loved ones in the best light possible, if, heaven forbid, I die prematurely and want to pass on as much money as I possibly can. If you're, if you're a web builder, AI can build it faster and better and cheaper than you can. I'm sorry. Like, it just can. So, that's a real threat that people need to be aware of. And I think, I don't know what industry Danny is, is in. I can't remember. I should

• 23:41Speaker 00

  probably know, but I can't remember. But that's a real threat. But, healthcare, yeah. Healthcare is another great example. There will come a point in time, I'm being a bit of a futurist here. There will come a point in time where I walk through my front door,

• 23:57Speaker 00

  and I've got a big wall right on the right side of, of my house when I walk. It's a pretty big, empty wall. I've got my computer and stuff there, but it's, it's an empty space. There will, there, trust me, mark my words right now. There will come a point in time where I walk in the house, and I stand in front of that wall, and I spread my legs, I open my arms up, and, you know, Dr. Medical or whatever, robot, scans me, and says, hey, everything looks good. Body fat's a little higher than it was last week. We're, we're picking up, we're tracing some cell activate, I'm making shit up, but we're tracing some cell activation. And it looks like there might be something in your colon that we

• 24:40Speaker 00

  need to be aware of. We need to figure out. So, let's go ahead and take a closer look. I promise you, that will come. So, if you're in healthcare and you're thinking to yourself, hey, I'm on my high and mighty, I'm sitting on my throne, and, no. Or even a surgeon. Bro, a robot can do, can do heart surgery on me better than you can. It just is. It just, it's just the nature of it. And I ran into this when I was doing financial planning, where, like, I got into it enough, and I'm, I'm enough of a marketer, where I saw these old guys, all of them were slightly balding, which, you know, I am now. You know, so I used to tease them, I can't anymore. And they'd sit on their leather chairs, which, you know,

• 25:22Speaker 00

  I am now. Shit, I'm turning into those guys. And, and they would tell me, you know, like, oh, you know, I'm so high and mighty and wonderful. Attorneys do this shit, too. And I told them, I said, look, you, you better get on board with digital marketing, with robo-advisors. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, it'll never replace. That's arrogance. So, I would just, if, if you're in any industry, I would just look long and hard at, at the risk to your industry going away. And then the last thing, which is the real impetus of, of Danny's question, is, you know, what do I do? Well, I think we live in an environment now where I don't have to make a black and white choice. I didn't. A lot of social media

• 26:07Speaker 00

  guys, like the entrepreneur leadership, social media guys, will say, burn the boats, go all in. And then you ask them, well, what'd you do? And they're like, well, I didn't do it like that. And I didn't do it like that. I mean, I started Order of Man when I was a full-time financial advisor. I'd wake up early, do some work. I'd do a little bit of work with Order of Man on my lunch break. I'd come home, eat dinner with my, my wife, my then-wife, you know, hang out with the kids, put the kids to bed, and then I'd go do more work with Order of Man. But I didn't go all in. In fact, I didn't leave until I sold my financial planning practice for multi-six figures, and then poured fully into

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Order of Man. So, I actually, to Danny's point, I don't think you need to choose, it's not black and white. I don't think you need to choose one or the other, but I would definitely explore other aspects while you have some of this other type of security over here with your, your current employment or business.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Well, and one thing for Danny that, that it's obvious, Danny, in the message, right, in the question, and then I think you know this, right, as you think through this, but do you want to retire and just be lazy and do nothing? Of course not, man. You, you want to be about something. I know you. You, you want to create something. You want to make a difference. You want to serve. You, you know what I'm saying? And so, like, do it. Like, go for it. And, and I think we're, we all have that kind of built into us a little bit, I think, most of us, that we want to create something, and, and especially create something that serves or helps others. And so, absolutely go after it. And, and we've talked about this, you know, so many times over the years, Ryan,

• 27:54Speaker 01

  it's like, you're not gonna know what that is until you start trying it out. And so, don't, don't get stuck in the paralysis of like, oh, I gotta figure this out. No, no, no, you don't get to figure it out. You, you get to start hiking, and then you figure out the right route, right? Then you figure out, you know, that that was a false summit, and that you should have cut over this particular way to make it to the top of the mountain. That's how life is. And so, I, I would double down on just start acting, testing out market, test out ideas, test out your passion, your desires, all of it, and, and figure it out as, as you go along. And don't overthink it, I don't think.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I, I think that word, retirement, is starting to rank right out there with vulnerability or feminist for me. It's like, I have friends who, who have said, well, I retired, you know, early. Like, oh, yeah? What are you doing now? They're like, oh, I run seven businesses, and I do this and that, and I'm starting this business.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  It's a badge. Yeah, it's a badge. I retired.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  What the hell are you talking about? You haven't retired? Like, I get why people would say that, because it sounds impressive. Like you said, a badge of honor. I don't want to, I never want to retire. I don't care if I'm 80 years old. Like, I don't want to go off into the sunset and ride a horse out in the desert and die. Sorry, that doesn't sound appealing to me. You know, and, and I think there's this increasing narrative, and I've said it, and I kind of believe it to a degree of like, hey, when I'm ready, I'm gonna ride off into the sunset, and you're never gonna hear from, from me again, and I'm gonna live off-grid. That sounds awesome for like, 72 hours. And then, as a man, I can't help but think, oh, I actually want to be valuable to other people. I actually

• 29:38Speaker 00

  want to have a difference in people's lives. I'm never retiring, bro. Never. Even if I'm not working for money, and one of my goals, and I'll just say it publicly, one of my goals is to have a ranch in Montana within the next decade. If I go out there, I'm gonna be 40, excuse me, 55 years old in the next decade, 55 years old. And let's say I spend, you know, five, 10, 20, 40 years of the rest of my life up there. Yeah, I'm, I'm still working. I'm still gonna be putting up fence. I'm still gonna be having calls like this. I'm still gonna be taking people on hunts. I'm still gonna be helping my neighbors mend

• 30:21Speaker 00

  fence and shoot predator. Like, I'm still working. Retirement is stupid. I hate, I hate that word, and I hate the idea behind it. Because, and I'll have to look at the statistics, and I've seen them. I'm just speaking anecdotally. I don't have the statistics in front of me. But when, when men retire, they die quickly.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Very, very quickly. And I'm not interested in doing that.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know the statistics either. I know numerous people that once those guys stopped working and they're retired. Yeah, they just, it's wild to me. They, they got depressed. They end up having all type of psychological issues like, man, I, I think being about something, right? If that, if we want to use that language, you, you gotta be about something. Otherwise, why are you alive?

• 31:12Speaker 00

  And it's gotta be about, I think, Kip, tell me if you think I'm wrong. We've only answered one question so far, but tell me if you think I'm wrong. The about something, I agree with that. But the about something has to be, at least from where I sit, has to be about other people.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I actually, I do not believe.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  Say, for example, I'll, I'll just finish. I want to hear what you had to say. Let me finish this. But like, I can't, for example, say, I'm just all about hunting and gardening and self sustainability. I, that's not, that's not about something to me. About something inherently means that there's other people involved that you're trying to serve, lead, protect, what guide, whatever. That's, that's how I look at it.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Totally. I completely agree. I, I think you're living, you're not living a life of fulfillment if it's not in the service of someone else. Absolutely.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  So I'll, I'll ask the questions today. So I'll ask the questions. I'll ask the questions. Number one, so this one is from, let's see, Wyatt Delgado. He says, my best friend and business partner of 12 years quietly moved clients to his own company before walking out. I've been angry for a year and it's eating at me more than it's hurting him. Which you don't know, actually, by the way. So I'll just throw that in there. I'm assuming you don't know. Is forgiveness something I owe him or something I owe myself? Well, here's,

• 32:57Speaker 00

  here's what I would say. So you don't owe forgiveness to him or yourself. It's not some sort of obligation. It's just in your best interest. This, this kind of falls in the line of like, should I, should I not? I don't know about should, but if you want to live a better life than offering forgiveness is, is a better, we just know is a better path to it. That sucks, man. I've, I've had that happen too, actually. I had it happen last year where a group of guys in the Iron Council, like three guys decided to quietly, and, and they were doing it sneaky. They were shifty behind my back. Were quietly recruiting people

• 33:42Speaker 00

  for their own organization. And while they were telling other people what they didn't like about what I was doing, they were building the same systems that I was using. Like, I mean, it's the lowest, like, it's lower than an amoeba or a single celled organism. Like, it's low. And I, and I've had guys who have left the Iron Council to go start their own men's movement or coaching movement or whatever. And I, I will help them. I've helped half a dozen guys go on and start, and I still have conversations with them today about what's working and what isn't. But it's because they did it right. And like, I've had this

• 34:25Speaker 00

  happen. And the only thing that has helped my burden, I actually don't care about their burden. In fact, I actually hope they crash and burn. I hope it doesn't go well for them. But the only thing that has eased my burden, which is the only thing I can control, is offering some grace. You know, and I reached out to these guys. I, I think it was the end of last year. I, I'm trying to remember the timeline. Everything goes so fast, but I think it was the end of last year, beginning of, of this year. I reached out to these guys and I said, Hey, let's have a conversation about what's going on. And they ignored me.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  And then one said, no, we don't really want to talk. It's like, there's nothing I can do to control that situation. The only thing I can do is ease my own suffering through offering grace and saying, hey, look, these are human beings. They're capable of making bad decisions. I've made bad decisions. I've done shady shit in the past. And so you don't owe this person forgiveness. But if you want a path to redemption, a path to easing your own burden, a path to moving forward, then yeah, probably a good idea to, I don't even know if I would use the word forgiveness as, as much as I would just afford some grace.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  That's been helpful for me to use that distinction. Like, hey, you know what? They thought they were doing the best thing. Cause if they didn't think that, they wouldn't have done it. So they thought, for whatever reason, they were doing the best thing. They justified it. They rationalized it objectively. It was not a good thing, but they did that. And as a human being, I've done that. I've taken advantage of people. I've lied to people. I've manipulated people. I mean, just this morning, I had a conversation with my son. I got back from just getting a, a drink this morning at the convenience store. And I asked my youngest son, I said, Hey, bud, did you take the dog out? And he's like, yeah. And I could tell

• 36:36Speaker 00

  he was lying to me. I could tell. And I said, oh, you did? He's like, yeah. I said, oh, okay. Let me just pull up the Ring camera and see when you took him out then. And he's like, no, no, no, no. I didn't take him out, dad. I'm sorry. I'm like, okay. Well, you didn't do what I asked you to do. And then you lied. That made it worse. And he said something to me that stopped me right in my tracks. Right in my tracks, man. He's like, yeah, dad, I lied. But you lie to me too. And I was like, oh shit. Yeah. True. True.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  And he gave me a couple of, of examples. And I was like, yeah. Yeah, that's true. So we're all human. We're all imperfect. And I don't feel like it's fair to hold somebody to the regard that we aren't willing to hold ourselves to, which means that, yeah, I think it's a good idea to offer some grace to people when they mess up, for sure.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Ryan, do you think by giving grace, by giving grace to someone, part of why that works is it helps you critically think about their actions and that you don't take it personal? Cause I, I think in circumstances like this, the upset is that bastard, he did this to me. Like, it, it's this story that it was this intentional attack on me as an individual where that's where most of the upset is. And then by giving grace and critically thinking about it, we realize, oh, got it. They're just being probably selfish and it's

• 38:18Speaker 01

  not as personal as I originally thought it was. And that allows us to kind of let go.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, every time I've ever hurt anybody was not malicious. I mean, there's, there's, there are evil people in the world who are malicious. So let's make no mistake about it. There's people who want to do you harm because they're evil and they hate you. It's true. But the 99% of us and the people that you and I are interacting with aren't like that. I mean, Kip, I, I'll just share a personal story if I can. Years ago, we went to, I invited you to come to a conference. This is not, this is not a flattering story for me. And I invited you to come to a conference to speak. And you did. And you did a phenomenal

• 39:11Speaker 00

  job. And you've been a friend of mine. And then after, do you remember what, do you know what I'm talking about?

• 39:20Speaker 01

  I don't think I spoke. So, so I might have been a different.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  That's right. You did come as a guest. I think you came as a guest. I think that's what.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  As a guest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  And then after, I mean, you've been a friend, like you've stood by me through thick and thin. And then after, like I, I still just bothers me, not like what I did. But after I went to dinner with all of the speakers, and I think you may have reached out or something. I can't exactly remember the timeline. And I just said, Hey, I'm going to dinner. Like, you're, you're on your own or whatever for dinner. I said, it's like something like that. Yeah. And I just should have invited you, man. Like, I just should have, like, I should have included you. That was an opportunity to include you, but I, I don't know if I felt like, oh, just the speakers are hanging out or whatever. And so you went out and

• 40:12Speaker 00

  did your thing. And I'm sure you had a great night. And then I remember calling you later that week, the next week. And I, if I remember correctly, and maybe you could tell me if I'm wrong, the way I'm remembering, maybe it's more flattering than it was, but I, I called you and I'm like, dude, I'm sorry. Like, that was not cool. Like, I, I excluded you. I, that was not cool. I'm really sorry. That's how I remember it. Was, am I wrong? Is that, is that how it went?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how it went. I mean, I think there's a group of, I think what happened is a lot of us were planning on grabbing dinner and the, the reservation or the space was limited. And it was like, oh, we, we all can't do this. And so I was like, and, and I try to think logically. I'm like, hey, this is an event. There's these, you know, high caliber guys that spoke, you know, and me and Colin were just like, we're, we're just gonna go watch the fights at some bar. You know what I mean?

• 41:08Speaker 00

  I probably should have done that anyways.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 41:13Speaker 00

  I don't know, dude, I just, I remember feeling bad. I remember feeling like, you know, I didn't include you in that situation and I should have been, I should have included you. You came out as my guest and I just feel like I kinda left you guys high and dry and, but you know this, I didn't, and I'm not going to apologize again, we, I did, we, we made amends, but you, but you know this, I didn't do that maliciously. There was no malicious intent behind that, you know, and, and when I told my kid this morning not to lie, I wasn't being malicious, I wasn't trying to manipulate him or anything. I was just saying, don't lie. Or even when I lie, I'm not trying to be malicious. I'm not trying to hurt him. I'm not trying to take advantage of

• 41:54Speaker 00

  him. I'm just, it's just self-preservation. And, you know, these guys that left the Iron Council, I actually don't think they were being malicious. I, I thought it was misguided. I, I thought it was, it was horrible behavior for sure. I don't think they're being malicious. I don't, I don't, I just don't think they're bad guys. I just think they were just misguided and, and misused the situation and took advantage of, of me. But I, I like what you're saying is that when you afford that forgiveness or grace, I think it just lets you see the humanity of people. And then it just lets you let go so that you can move on to something better. But also, it doesn't mean that you need to expose yourself

• 42:38Speaker 00

  to that situation again. Like, those guys are not welcome to join the Iron Council, ever.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Do I forgive them? Yes. Can they join our organization again? No, they're banned for life.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  Do I want the best for them? Do I want their marriages to win? Do I want their, uh, their kids to thrive? Yeah. I was gonna say, do I want their business to grow? No, I don't. But I, but everything else? Absolutely. Like, I want the, I want those guys to win at life. But I'm not gonna let that happen at my expense. If we want to collaborate, great, but not at my expense. No way. I'm not opening myself up to that. Ever.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  Oh, I was waiting for you to ask questions. I'm like, what's the next question?

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I was like, oh, he's forgotten.

• 43:25Speaker 00

  This one comes from Anders Kowalski. He says, uh, Kowalski, that's a good name. I'm the guy, everybody, oh, this one's a good one. I'm the guy in my family, let's see, I'm the guy in my family, everyone calls when something breaks, whether it's money, or marriage, or cars, or whatever. I'm really happy to do it, but nobody ever asks me how I'm holding up. So, how does a man who carries every single person make room to be carried once in a while?

• 43:55Speaker 00

  Oof, that's a tough one. I think a lot of guys can resonate with that. Yeah, I think first and foremost is just acknowledging that that's your role, you know, that, that's, that's your role. And instead of looking at it as a burden, maybe we start just realizing that this is a beautiful blessing. You know, the fact that people call you means they trust you. And the fact that people trust you means that you're valuable. And the fact that you're valuable should bring some level of fulfillment to your life. It should bring some sense of personal satisfaction. And it sounds like it does. So, I would never get rid of that at the expense of taking care of myself.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  Because if we lose that, like we said earlier about being in service to other people, if we lose the ability to be valuable in people's lives, then we lose our ability to be fulfilled in life.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  So, what I would say is continue to pour into the people in your life who need you for cars and money and whatever else. Build some boundaries in place, right? So, like, Kip, if you came to me and you're like, hey, Ryan, um, man, things have been tight right now, and I could just, I could use like a thousand bucks to make the mortgage payment, or something. Like, if you said that to me, like, dude, done, you'll have it here, Venmo, you'll have it in five minutes.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  If you came to me and you said, hey, Ryan, I need a hundred thousand dollars to pay off my mortgage, you know, that might be a different conversation, right? Like, I have boundaries. I'm like, cool, I won't give you a hundred thousand dollars, but I'll hire you to do X, Y, and Z for the next two years, and we can talk about what that might look like.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  So, there's, there's boundaries in place where I can be gracious and I can afford people opportunities and simultaneously protect my, myself. Because if I give you a hundred thousand dollars to pay off your mortgage, well, that means I don't get to pay off my mortgage with a hundred thousand dollars. Or that means that I don't get to take my kids on the trip that we talked about over the summer. And I'm just not willing to do that. So, I think what you need to do in this situation, before it comes up again, is figure out, okay, well, what do people ask me for? They ask me for my time, they ask me for my money, and they ask me for my skillset. That's what Anders said. Okay, so time, let's talk, let's talk about time. How much time are

• 46:23Speaker 00

  we looking at here? And what days are you available? You know, maybe Sunday, you're just not available. Because that's a family day, or a church day, or a spiritual day, and then Sabbath, and you decide, hey, no, it's important enough to me that I don't do that. Unless there's an emergency and somebody's in a life or death situation, Sunday's off the table. So, if Kip, you called me on Sunday and you're like, hey, Ryan, can you help me move today? And Sunday was my boundary, I'd say, hey, brother, I wish I could, but I made a commitment to myself, my family, and God, that I just don't do that on Sunday. But I'm happy to help you on Saturday or Monday. What would work better for you?

• 46:58Speaker 00

  And look, I know it's uncomfortable because that person needs your help on Sunday. Well, that's their problem, not my problem. And I'm still being gracious by affording them the opportunity to utilize my services on Saturday or Monday. So, that's, that's the time situation. The money situation is, you come to me, Kip, and you say, hey, Ryan, a thousand dollars, I wouldn't blink twice at. I would, I would, I would give you that any day of the week at any time. Um, if you came to me and you said, hey, Ryan, I need five thousand dollars, I'd be like, cool. Go ahead and put together a plan about how you're gonna repay me that five thousand dollars, what you're gonna do, when payments are due, what happens if you don't pay me back,

• 47:40Speaker 00

  and how we move forward. And once you get me that plan, you'll have five thousand dollars this evening. That's a boundary. I, I would have that boundary, and I would clearly identify what that boundary is, so there's no guesswork. And you know what happens when you do that, by the way? Ninety-nine percent of people never come back to you with a plan. And then they blame you. It's like, I told you I'd do it. You just gotta get a plan to me. Ninety-nine percent of people won't come with a plan. If they do, that means they're a little bit more serious. And then your skillset, so we got, so we, we address time, we address money, now your skills, is just figure out what you're good at and what you're not. You know, if, if somebody says, hey, will you come help me figure out this car thing this weekend? If you called me and said, hey, Ryan, will you

• 48:25Speaker 00

  help me fix my carbureator or whatever? I'd be like, no. I, I mean, I, like, I'll try to come help, I guess, if I can.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Not my bag.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  I don't know how to fix a carbure, I don't know how to clean it, I don't know how to pull it out. I don't even know what it looks like, honestly. So, no, I'm good. Now, if you called me and you said, hey, Ryan, I'm setting up a new podcast studio, will you help me with the technology and setting it up and getting lighting and camera? Hell yeah, of course. I'll do that. That's in my skillset. And so, I, I think it's fair to me to utilize my skillset, and it's fair to you to tell you, that's not in my purview. You don't, it's gonna be a waste of time for everybody. So, it's just a matter of figuring out boundaries and still being gracious with your resources, but figuring out the boundaries and your limitations and just communicating them effectively. That's what I think.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Can I repeat something that you said, Ryan, that I just think is really important? Because I think we fall into these pitfalls a little bit when we serve others, is that we might be dramatizing it, right? It's like, oh, look at me, and, and then it's like, um, oh, I have these plans. Oh, Ryan asked for help. Here I am again. Look at me, I'm sacrificing. I have no time for myself. And we, yeah, and we, and we build this up. And so, I, I think something that you said, Ryan, that I think is important for him to consider is, get clear that you're serving people because you want to. Not because, um, of some story that you want to perpetuate,

• 50:00Speaker 01

  that no one ever cares about you, and you're gonna do it, and just watch, no one's there for me. Just assume no one's gonna do that for you. And, and find those people in your life, right? That you can band with. But, but be clear that this is service, right? And that's why you're doing it. And then I think that might help us have the right mindset, where we're not having these expectations of that, I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna use this as a story that no one ever serves me.

• 50:29Speaker 00

  Kip, I, I love that, man. It's, I actually had a conversation about this exact thing on our team in the Iron Council. Like, I, I'm on a team myself. I had this exact conversation with my guys, and it's the, it's the trap of martyrdom. Think about every good movie that any guy likes. Few that come to mind is Braveheart, martyr. Gladiator, martyr. Like, pick a movie that guys just don't, uh, Last of the Mohicans, martyr. Pick, pick a movie that you aren't the martyr.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  We, we love that shit. And it's good. I, I think it is good. It means that we value service above ourselves. I think any healthy man would, would, would agree with that. But not everything requires your death for it to be meaningful. Um, and a lot of, a lot of stuff, you're just using for virtue signaling. Like you said, oh, look at me, look at me, I, you know, I was gonna go fishing this weekend, but I couldn't go fishing because Kip asked me to move. And, and then you're bent out of shape. And then you know what you do, even subconsciously? You hold it against Kip.

• 51:53Speaker 00

  And then you talk about it for the next few months. You're like, yeah, remember, Kip, that time I came over? Bro, I could have caught the biggest bass, and I came and helped you. Now, you just sound like an asshole, and it sounds like you're keeping score. And Kip's gonna be less likely to ask you for help in the future because you keep dangling it over your head because you didn't just give, you kept score. It's different. Like, if you're gonna do something, and do it, and never bring it up again.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. And all the areas that you're giving up in life, now you're just, you're just a victim, right? Running your entire life. Oh, I could have, I should have, but never, no one ever did. And guess what? The reality of it is, most people are not going to see your, you as a martyr. You're the only one.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, we just don't care. We just don't care. We're too busy with our own martyrdom.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  No one's gonna really, no one really cares. Everyone's so busy. Yeah, yeah, no one's gonna give you the drama that you're looking for anyway, in most cases. So it's kind of sad. It gets wasted.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. All right. Next one comes from Jonah Whitaker. He says, oh yeah, he says, "When we got married, my wife and I shared the same faith. Uh, over the past couple of years, she's walked away from it and I'm still in. We're raising three kids and I don't know how to lead spiritual at home, spiritually at home, without fighting all the time about it. How would you handle that?"

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Hmm. That's tough, because I think there's a few things, there's probably five or six things that would be deal breakers in a relationship before getting into a relationship. One would be faith, for, for me, this is just for me. One would be faith, that'd be a deal breaker. If I'm a Christian and she's a Muslim, no thanks.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Not happening?

• 53:47Speaker 00

  No, not. I don't care how much I love her, or how hot she is. No, thank you. Another is politics. I will never, ever be with a liberal woman. I, I, and look, I'm, I'm not saying there aren't intelligent liberal people, or kind and decent liberal people. Sure, I would never, ever be with a liberal woman. Um, the way we raise our children is one. If, if she's over coddling, or soft, and accommodating to all their little whims and all these kind of things. Nope, not, not in on that. Uh, you know, there's probably a

• 54:25Speaker 00

  few others, but you're already married, bro. So this is a different story. Um, I think this requires a lot of conversation without, without accusation, but curiosity. So it's like, hey babe, look, we're, we're, we're on different faiths. But in what ways do we agree about spirituality? And maybe she's like, well, you worship Christ and I worship Buddha. Okay. Well, in what ways are they similar? Like what principles do they share? What principles do, do we agree upon that we can instill in our children that we both agree are valuable? And in what ways do they differ? Right? Or she might say, well, I don't

• 55:08Speaker 00

  believe in God at all. I mean, that happens quite often. Like, I don't, I don't even believe in God. It's like, okay. Well, what religion do you follow? They might be like, what do you mean? I don't follow religion. No, you, you do. It's just a secular religion. I heard a quote, and I'm paraphrasing, really, really paraphrasing, but a, a gentleman was saying that everybody, everybody, um, has a religion. It's just a matter of what, who you follow and what you worship. And so even atheists have a religion. And typically, it's secular, right? It's, it's, it's the dogma of climate change, or the dogma of, um, transgender issues, or, you know, fill, fill in the blank, whatever, it, well, with whatever.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Social issues.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  And it almost be, yeah, social issue. It becomes almost spiritual. I mean, you, you see this all the time, when you see people doing land acknowledgements. You know, these are people who don't believe in some sort of higher power. They're very secular in their beliefs, but then they'll do a land acknowledgement as a spiritual offering to, who? Exactly. Right? So I, I think what I would do, even if she said, no, I'm just an atheist, I think I'd say, okay, well, what principles do you live by? And I even, I actually believe, I didn't believe this all the time, but I believe even atheists are like, well, I, I just want to do right by people. Uh, I want to be kind and decent. Um, I think it's an exception when you find somebody who's not like that, even if they're

• 56:31Speaker 00

  not spiritual. But I think even the most secular people still have a faith that is rooted in being decent. So figure out what that is, and find common ground through curiosity. Find differences through curiosity as opposed to accusation. And then, at that point, I'd say, okay, great. Well, you know, here's 10 principles we agree on. And here's five things we don't agree on. What I say is that we focus on these 10 things as we teach our children. And then these five things, we talk about differences of opinion respectfully,

• 57:11Speaker 00

  without resorting to ad hominem attacks, straw man argument, accusation, criticizing the other person, and just have a really open discussion about what these things are. And frankly, I'll be really, I'll be really straightforward on this one. If she doesn't want to do that, I'm out. I'm out. I, I, and I, I'm very, very hesitant to say that. But it, but again, that's one of my rules. Like, if she's not on board with at least that, there's the door. We're done. Maybe that's harsh. I, do you think that's harsh, Kip? Or do you agree, disagree? What do you think?

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Well, let me just, yeah, let me just say this. I mean, I, I've seen this. I'm sure you've seen this. Most of those marriages don't work out, unfortunately.

• 58:00Speaker 00

  They're not going to.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  And, and I hate to bring that up, because it's like, super negative. But why don't they work out? Right? And, and I don't think they work out is because the religion that you say you're part of anyway, is it yours? You wrote that, you wrote that shit up? Oh, God, you're adopting someone else's viewpoints, and you've latched onto them for a sense of self-identity. So what you suggested, Ryan, I think is spot on. But let's get really clear. That's hard. Most people don't even look at their own religion that way. Right? And so the level of self-awareness for a couple to do this would be awesome. Right?

• 58:40Speaker 01

  You know, guess what your alignment is? Seekers of truth is who you guys are. And you're not going to fall into labels, and you're going to be curious, and you're both committed to seeking truth and a higher version of yourselves, and you're on different paths, but you're on the same mission. But the minute that you're shallowed in your thought process, and this is like, right, wrong, tit for tat, and, and you're not even curious enough to understand your own self and what you're doing, th- this is just going to be a disaster of argument. So I completely agree with you. I, I, I think this is, it's awesome. And,

• 59:23Speaker 01

  and maybe this is a catalyst for you to rise up and just become way more spiritual, because that's what's going to be required of you, for you to, to make this work. So, you know what I mean? Uh, this could be awesome. Um, but not easy. Uh, certainly not easy. But I, I totally agree with you.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  And, and by the way, I do want to throw one caveat. Like, if you sit down with your wife, and you say, okay, here's, here's the 10 things that I would say are universal principles. Here's the five things that I'm open to exploring, whatever, whatever. And you have, you know, a two-hour conversation about it. I'm not advocating for you to say, well, nope, you're gone.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  I'm done.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  Like, yeah. I'm saying, have some discuss, like, it's not going to get resolved in a, in a two-hour conversation. But if, if, if it's over the course of weeks, and months, and even years, and it's nagging, and it's bickering, and it's contentious, and the kids are confused, and you're confused, over months and years, that's what I'm saying. I just don't want to be flippant about it.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, good call. Ryan, I, I can do one more call. I have to prep for my, for my 11.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay, all good. Let's do it. Um, I'm gonna find the best one here.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  The best one. The best one.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  The, the best one.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Those are good questions.

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  Oof. We have some really good, and I will, we'll say the rest for next week, so they'll come up. Okay. Um, okay, here's a good one. Oh, this is a good one. So this is from Caleb Winters. He says, "My daughter just turned 16, and she started dating. My instinct is to go to full protect mode, full protector mode. But I remember how that backfired with my own dad. How do you protect a daughter without pushing her away from you?" This is interesting, because I, there's a couple of things that come to mind. So, one, I saw a post from John Lovell, and I love John. I think John has so many great things to

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  say, Warrior Poet Society, I'm a huge advocate. And I totally disagree with something he said on this one. And he said something to the effect of, and, and I'm happy to have this discussion with John if I'm, if I'm misrepresenting. But he said something to the effect of, your daughter shouldn't date until they're ready to marry, until they're the age where they're ready to marry. And I totally adamantly disagree with that. Your daughter, now, six, I think 16 is the appropriate age. I, I, that's the age that my ex-wife and I have agreed on for our daughter, which is in about three years, a little less than

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  now, counting the days. Um, she's already interested in boys, of course. Uh, they do friend groups, and boys are around, and girls are around. But as far as like, being on a date, an official date with a boy, no, not until you're 16. There's not, we're not doing it. But I think it's healthy for a young woman to go on dates without the idea of I have to marry this person. How is she ever gonna find out what she likes, what she doesn't like, what's respectful, what isn't respectful, the amount of time it takes to actually court and vet somebody who could potentially become her lifelong partner, or the worst mistake she's ever made?

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  And if you can do that in a semi-safe controlled environment, under your roof, isn't that a good thing? That's a great thing. You know, I would never, I would never let my 10-year-old go to a batting cage and hit a ball at 90 miles an hour, or go face down a professional MLB pitcher. Because why would I do that? Like, how is that gonna serve them? Now, would I let them go in a batting cage with somebody who can throw 40 or 50 miles an hour, or the machine can throw? Yeah, for sure. Of course I would do that, because it's in a controlled environment.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  I would never let my daughter go swim the Hawaiian channels from island to island at 13-years-old, but would I let her go into an Olympic-sized pool and test her capabilities for swimming? Yeah, absolutely, I would do that. In fact, I wouldn't keep her out of the pool, I'd throw her in and say, "Let's see how you do." So I think there's a, I think there's a balance here. So, that's the first thing that I would say is, you know, like, yeah, I think it's appropriate for her to date, but I also made another post about a guy who reached out to me one time, and he said, "Hey, my daughter is," and I'm paraphrasing, "but my daughter's dating this a-hole, and I don't know, I don't know how to deal with it, I don't even like the guy."

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  I'm like, "Well, you better treat him as your son, because one day he might become one, so maybe teach him." And there was a post that I saw on social media where a woman had texted her dad and said, "Hey, Dad, will you help me walk through how to change a tire, we're on the highway?" And the dad was like, "Hey, is, you know, Steve there with you?" And she's like, "Yeah, Steve's here, but he doesn't know how to change a tire." And he wrote back and said, "Dump Steve." And I'm like, "Really, dude? Like, dump him? Because he doesn't know how to change a tire?" You know, if that's the worst thing about Steve, I'd say, "Maybe your daughter picked a pretty decent dude, and there's an opportunity for you to teach Steve how to change a tire."

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  And so the point that I'm making is, bring the young man into your world when she's dating. You know, if you have rules about like, "Hey, you're gonna come pick her up, and when you pick her up, you're gonna come inside and you're gonna speak to me as her father, and you're gonna tell me what your plans are, you're gonna tell me how you're gonna treat her, you're gonna tell me exactly where you're going, you're gonna tell me when you bring her home, and I'm not gonna be cleaning my shotgun like some douchebag, or like, try to intimidate you, that'll happen regardless, the kid's already intimidated, I promise." But you're gonna, you're gonna treat the young man with respect, and you're gonna demand that the young man treats your daughter with respect.

• 1:05:52Speaker 00

  And if he can't live up to a few little rules like that, she doesn't get to date him, and neither does he. But if you're reasonable about it, and you explain to your daughter about like, "Hey, bud, like, Steve's coming over today, and that's great, I'm really excited for you, here's the four things that Steve needs to do. He needs to come to the door when he gets here, he needs to call me Mr. Mickler, he needs to tell me what the plan is, he needs to come sit on the couch and talk with me, I will be respectful of him, I will not embarrass you, I will not mistreat him, and everything will be good." And if we can do that, we're good. Great, have fun.

• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  But if we can't meet these expectations, and you're not willing to agree to my expectations, or I'm not willing to agree with yours, then we don't have a deal here, I'm still in charge, I'm your dad. That's how I'd look at it, and that's how I will look at it.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I love it. I've always appreciated your response to these kind of questions, and I'm gonna quote Mr. Rogers here, you know, he said, he was quoted once in saying that one of the greatest failures that we have as parents is forgetting what it was like to be a kid. So, you know, put yourself in this predicament, you're 16, you wanna date a guy, and your parents are like, "Nope, you can't do it." So what are you gonna do anyway? "Oh, you're gonna honor it? You're gonna all of a sudden..." You know what I mean? Like, come on, think through this, right? Remember what it was like to be 16.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  And, and I love your advice on these scenarios of like, embrace, embrace the relationship that your, that your daughter might be having with this boy, and treat him like your son. And, and you know what's great about this? Is this is how you have, this is how you continue to have influence with your daughter. Because guess what happens when that young man can't stand you? You think that, that allows you to be coachable with your daughter? Or does that generate a riff in your ability to influence your daughter? It absolutely is a riff. So if you have teenage kids doing things, you wanna be able to speak with them, speak into them, have a good relationship with them.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Number two, have a good relationship with all their friends. And that keeps you in, into the conversation, and be able to be there and have her underneath your roof, and be able to provide counsel, not just through her, but also through him.

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I mean, absolutely, and there's so many little things you can do. A couple of things, and I know you gotta go, but like, what if this, Steve comes, and I'm just using Steve as the example, but Steve comes over, poor Steve, man, Steve's getting beat up here today. But Steve comes over, and he knocks on your door, and you open the door, and he says, "Hello, Mr. Mickler, I'm here to pick up your daughter." I'm like, "Good, come on in." And we sit down, and we're like, "Okay, tell me, you know, all the things I just told you, tell me your plans." And he gives you satisfactory answers, and your daughter's included, you don't make him feel weird, and then you start walking out the door, and you're like, "Oh, Steve, let me, let me do a couple of things." And he said, "Get out your phone, here's my, here's my personal cellphone, put my cellphone

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  number in your phone. If you guys get into a pickle, if you get into a bind, if you get pulled over, if you get scared, if you're in an uncomfortable situation, that's my phone number, put that into your, into your, your phone right now, okay? Number one. Number two, I'm gonna give you this $50 right here, I'm gonna give you $50 right now. Here's $50. This is used for emergencies. Again, if you, maybe your car declines, or you run out of money, or like, whatever, like, if there's a situation, here's $50. I expect this $50 back unless there's one of those situations met, but here's $50, I wanna make sure you're in the position where you guys can have a good night together."

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  What, like, what's wrong with that? Like, that's so health, healthy. And it shows that your daughter's, bro, your daughter's gonna be like, "Oh, Dad actually cares about us? And he cares about me? And he wants Steve to have a good time too? Yeah, I do, I want him to have a good time too. If he's a good kid, and he met the criteria, I want him to have a good time too. I want this date to go well, within boundaries." And I think that's, I think everybody will respect that.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Yep, I'm still on that one, man, that's a good one, that's absolutely gold.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  All right, brother, cool. Well, let's wrap it up today, I know you gotta get going, I kept you a little bit late, so let's, uh, let's, uh, let's clock out here.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As always, gentlemen, if you're willing, or you're interested in learning more about the Iron Council, go to theironcouncil.com to learn more, and as always, connect with Mr. Mickler on the socials, @RyanMickler, both on X and Instagram. And then, really, the last call to action is hop on YouTube, see that beautiful couch that Ryan's gonna be taking a nap in here pretty soon.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  Yes, sir. Soon as we're done, I'm falling asleep, man. The other thing I thought about, like, when I was sitting here, I'm like, "Oh, the camera angle," I'm like, "I should probably put some pants on today, cuz I think the camera angle's a little different than it normally is, so..."

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't worry, he has pants on, so you guys can visit the channel.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  I do have pants, and if you're curious, you can go check it out, I'm trying not to give you a crotch shot, but, you know, doing the best we can here, that's why I put the boots here, to block...

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  The boot is perfectly positioned, yeah.

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  I'm no dummy, I'm no dummy, believe it or not, I actually do have some intentionality behind what I do. All right, guys, great, great questions, keep them coming, we've got five or six more that we'll address next week, along with any other questions that you have. If you wanna drop your questions, hit me up on the Gram, hit me up on our, in our Facebook group, you know where to find us. Kip, I appreciate you, man, I gotta let you go, we'll be back on Friday, we're gonna talk about the virtue of intolerance on Friday, so it's gonna be a good one, and we'll do it then. Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man Podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.