Bad promotions, Good Cults, and Drunk Friends | ASK ME ANYTHING

Ryan Michler and Kipp Sorensen tackle another round of Ask Me Anything questions, covering career ambition, fatherhood, divorce, sobriety, friendship, faith, Stoicism, hunting injuries, masculinity, money and men's brotherhood. They discuss the hidden costs of achieving your goals, how to rebuild trust with your children, why friendships require intentional effort, and how to redefine your sense of worth beyond income. They also explore whether Christian principles and Stoic philosophy can coexist, adapting outdoor pursuits after injury, and what to do when others misunderstand your men's group. Throughout, the conversation emphasizes intentionality, responsibility, consistency, connection and surrounding yourself with men committed to growth. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - Recording Setup & Connection Issues 04:37 - Kipp Returns from Europe 06:30 - The Hidden Cost of Career Success 13:33 - Can You Overdo Affection as a Father? 19:36 - Rebuilding Trust After Divorce 27:57 - Sobriety and Finding Fun Without Alcohol 37:07 - Maintaining Long-Distance Male Friendships 39:55 - Christianity, Stoicism and Truth 46:46 - Staying Connected to the Outdoors After Injury 48:59 - When Your Wife Makes More Money 54:41 - Defending Brotherhood Without Defending It 56:46 - The Iron Council 57:45 - Staying Connected with Order of Man Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I can't think of a principle in Stoicism. I mean, the whole concept of Stoicism is to understand your emotions, regulate yourself well, know who you are, know what triggers you, respond properly. Yeah, I mean, Jesus Christ, how many times has, uh, have we seen stories where he had every reason to blow up and chastise and criticize and mock and be upset and be offended. I mean, even on the cross, he was Stoic, that he's telling, he's, he's telling God, forgive them, as he's nailed to the cross. That seems like it's a pretty complimentary concept. Kip, what's up, man? It's good to have you back. Alan did a great job filling in, in your stead while you were gone, but you, you had a, a family wedding to attend. How was it?

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was phenomenal. It was in Portugal, uh, in Centra area outside of Lisbon. And it was just beautiful, man. Like, uh, it's kind of weird to marry off a kid. So that in itself is a, a different experience, but wedding was phenomenal. It was beautiful. Um, beautiful bride and groom. It was perfect. So feeling blessed. Yeah.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, you should. It looks like you guys had a good time. And, um, I haven't heard much about it, but was missing you on the podcast. Like I said, Alan did a great job filling in, but it's always good to have you back and, and get back into a routine. And I know a little bit about how you work, because we are the same. There's a, there's a, um, there's a limit on vacation days in a row for me. And, and once I get past, I could do maybe four or five days. I'm pretty good. Once I get past that, it, it loses its luster, uh, gradually for every day after that for me. So I know you feel a little bit of the same way. You've talked about that in the past.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Yep, totally. Four days is usually my, my window as well. And then I have to start being productive and get a schedule going or something.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  For sure, man. For sure. Well, speaking of being productive, I know you're on, on a bit of a hard stop time crunch today. So, uh, what we're gonna do for guys who are just listening, tuning in for maybe even the first or second time, this is our Ask Me Anything. So we're fielding questions from you guys. And we've got some good ones today. And hopefully we can give you something to, uh, consider, something to ponder on, maybe something to laugh at, because we'll probably say something dumb and stupid and put our foot in our mouth. Uh, but, you know, all part of the fun. So Kip, why don't we just get right into questions today?

• 2:29Speaker 01

  Sounds great. Sounds great. All right. First question from Marcus Bellwether. I finally landed the promotion I've been chasing for three years, but now I'm working 60 hour weeks and my kids barely see me. Was it worth it?

• 2:45Speaker 00

  I mean, be careful what you wish for, right? Because you might, you might just get it. Uh, there's been times in my life where I have gotten exactly what I wanted and realized that there was a bunch of strings attached that I didn't either, either account for, or I just overlooked because I was so narrow focused on achieving whatever that objective was. I can't tell you if it's worth it or not. I mean, how, how could I make that decision for you or, or, or tell you it is or isn't? You have to make that decision. I'll tell you where I think it could be worth it. If it's a temporary situation, you know, 60 hours a week is a lot of time to be away from the family, but sometimes that's what's

• 3:25Speaker 00

  required of as a man. It, it really isn't until a relative ease of modernity that we've started to question, you know, being with or away from our family for any period of time, 50, 80, 100 years ago, you know, even in war, I think about this, our warriors used to spend months and months on ships to get into theater before they even started their tour. And they didn't see their family for literally years at a time. And I'm grateful for modern times, but also like, that's just what a man has to do at times. So if it's temporary, I, I would say it makes it more worth it. And so maybe you do start having the conversation about how long you need to put in these hours of work and then what

• 4:09Speaker 00

  it looks like after the fact, because then if it settles down back to 40 hours a week, uh, it sounds like that would be a pretty good opportunity for you. So I would just start looking at it and saying, okay, what am I trading? What am I giving up? But then there's other things that you should definitely do, like communicate with your children. Let them know how this works, what's going on, what kind of work you're doing. I, I, I went upstairs this morning and we had an Iron Council call, our All Hands Friday call. And I went up there and my son, he's 10 years old. He's like, how'd your call go, Dad? I'm like, oh, it went really good. Thanks for asking. He's like, yeah, how many people did you have on? And I told him, he's like, oh, is that a lot or a little? I'm like, eh, it's a little lower than it normally is, but it's still a good amount of men that we had

• 4:53Speaker 00

  on the call. He's like, oh, that sounds like a lot of people. That's cool. What'd you guys talk about? This is a 10 year old. And he's asking me questions about my job and my business because I include him in it. He's part of the deal. It's a package deal. Uh, so I think having those conversations is going to be crucial. And then just being just ruthlessly committed to your schedule and protecting your time off. Like when you're done, you're done. That time is then your wife and your kids and, um, protect that minimum time at all costs. That's, that's how I would look at it.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Isn't this classic, you know, classic human behavior, right? Us desiring something without being clear on the associated cost of it. Yeah. And, and this is a good testament. Obviously, I'm not sure if Marcus knew it was looking at 60 hours a week, probably didn't, right? Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have this question. But how many different areas of our lives we do this? Oh, I want this, but I don't clarify what's required to get there. And, and there's power in sometimes us clarifying what's going to take to get there and then deciding to no longer desire it. I mean, talk about an upset. Oh, I'm gonna seek something that I'm unwilling to pay the price for. Then let it go. And start, stop

• 6:07Speaker 01

  seeking after it, if you're unwilling to, to put in the necessary work. So maybe a good testament for all of us to consider, you know, what are these things that we're seeking out in life where we haven't gotten clear on the associated cost? And maybe if we did, uh, we would maybe pivot our direction, right? Or our desires or our efforts, uh, maybe towards something else. Um, specifically to Marcus though, like, you know, be careful, right? How often, you know, we think that, uh, something's hard, we go just work harder. And, and I'm, I'm at fault with this. Like, you know, in the Iron Council, we covered a book called, oh my gosh, what was the book? Um, oh shoot.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Give me a hint.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Is it effortless? Effortlessness? No, it was, um, oh my gosh.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  Is it the, the, it's not the one thing? I don't know.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  No, no. The, the premise of the book was that I got out of it, one of my biggest takeaways is that I might have latched onto this identity that if I'm not working hard, that I'm not providing value. And that's not necessarily true. And so be careful, Marcus, that you're not falling into this pit of like, well, I got to put in 60. Well, do you? Right? It, are you delegating appropriately? Are you prioritizing your time appropriately? Right? Like, just don't go to the default that 60 hours are required. That may not necessarily be true.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  I think that's a good point. I think we do, as men, have a tendency to believe that it counts more if we're suffering greater. You know, it's like, the more you suffer, the more it counts. Like, well, what if you could produce the same results with half the suffering? Doesn't that sound like a good thing? But then we feel like, well, then I'm just being lazy or weak or, you know, fill in the blank with whatever you say. But that's the whole concept of just working smarter, not harder. I also like what you said, Kip, too, about, um, making the deliberate and intentional choice not to pursue something. There, there's this phenomenon that a lot of us deal with, especially with the rise of and proliferation of social media is FOMO, fear of missing out. You know, you jump on,

• 8:19Speaker 00

  let's say there's a, let's say there's a big event that all your buddies are going to this week, and you can't make it for whatever reason, work, family obligations, other conflicting things in your schedule. And you're seeing all the pictures and you're looking at it all. And you're like, oh, man, like, I wish I was there and I'm missing out. And what are they talking about? What am I missing out on? I think you begin to eliminate a lot of that when you, instead of just default your way through life, you become more intentional with your life. So I've pulled up hunts and other things that I've been invited to that I have not been able to make. And when I started making the switch between deliberately and intentionally choosing things to do, it diminished my fear of missing out because

• 9:01Speaker 00

  I said to myself, oh no, I consciously made the choice not to go do that thing because this thing was more important to me in that moment. And it alleviates so much frustration and jealousy and feeling like you're, you're missing something that the guys are doing because you deliberately and intentionally made a choice to do something else instead of just defaulted to wherever the winds of your calendar or your demands took you.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally, totally. I love it. All right. Dale Kirkwood. My dad never told me he loved me, not once. I say it to my sons every day, but part of me wonders if I'm over correcting. Can you overdo affection as a father?

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Now, this is interesting. It's a good, well, the answer is yes. And I'll explain what I mean. Yes, you can overdo it. I'll explain that. I actually don't, I don't know the situation. I'll, I'll say it this way. I would question the premise of your question. He never said he loved me. Yep. Maybe he didn't use those words, but ask yourself, did he show you his love for you in other ways? You know, a lot of old time guys, like, they're not going to be affectionate. They're not going to say, I love you, but they'll work their tail off. They'll sacrifice. They'll come to all your games. Um, they'll, they'll, uh, administer discipline righteously with, with love and care. Uh, and I'm not saying that was your

• 10:35Speaker 00

  case. I don't know, but don't assume that just because he didn't use those words meant that he didn't express some sort of love for you. He may have, and you've just overlooked it for some reason. So that's one thing. I think it's always just important to challenge our, our narrative, challenge our stories. Uh, it gives us a new way of looking at people. And I think it affords people more grace than we normally and naturally would allow them to have from us. But as far as overdoing it on affection, yeah, it's like, um,

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Have you ever had like somebody like scratched, like your wife, she scratches your back or scratches your arm and it feels so nice, right? She's you're laying, you're sitting on the couch, watching a movie and she's scratching your back. And then she starts doing it in the same pattern, like small circles, because she's getting into the movie and it's the same thing over and over and over again. And what felt really good now becomes obnoxious and you're like, God, stop, because she's scratching in that same little area over and over again. And now it's just a nuisance and an annoyance. I actually think the same thing can happen with the way that you that you love people. And if you do something way too much, way too frequently, way too often, it loses its

• 11:52Speaker 00

  power. It stops, it stops having potency with it. And I'm not saying you should withhold love. So it means more. I'm just saying that if you always are like, I love you, I love you, I love you. At some point, it's like, I got it. Like, yeah, I know. I love you too. Like, give me a break for a second. And then there's one other thing to consider here. I would ask myself, if I were in your shoes, why, why I feel the need to say that? And you kind of gave us a backstory, but the way that you framed it makes it sound as if you need to do that for yourself, not for

• 12:30Speaker 00

  them. And then what happens is you become needy and clingy and obnoxious. So I would, I would wonder and just have yourself consider, are, is that really what you're doing? You're trying to know that they're loved? Or are you trying to overcompensate and correct because you feel some hole, or you feel some inadequacy, and you want to make yourself feel better by being a better father? I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that. But if it's that motive, you could become very clingy, very needy, very overbearing. And I think your kids at some point will probably try to put some distance between you if that's the case.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Totally. And what happens when they say, they, what happens when they go silent and they don't say, I love you back? What then? Yeah. Because the whole point you're doing it anyways for validation. Now you're gonna get upset. It's a form of manipulation. Yeah, I love that, Ryan. I think that's a really, really good point. The only other thing that I, that kind of came to mind regarding, you know, Dale's situation and, and is know what love is. I mean, we all know this, you guys listening, you know this, you know, we, I'm sure we've referenced the five love languages probably 100 times over the years. But love looks differently for everybody. And, and it's obvious in, in, in the backstory, right? My dad never said it. Okay, got it. Dad probably

• 13:59Speaker 01

  didn't care much about words of affirmation. And his love language is probably acts of service. So all those times, Dale, where you never took out your garbage and you didn't get your room cleaning, you didn't help him out in the field. Guess what dad was probably feeling? That you didn't give a crap about him. Right? So like, let's just be mindful. People see love differently. And, and that's probably a good question. In fact, you know, I, this is my takeaway coming out of this podcast is like, do I know the love languages of my kids? I've actually never thought about doing that. So that's my action item coming out of this is like, I should know what that is for each of my children and kind of meet them where they are.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  I think there's actually a for kids version of the five love languages, if I understand correctly. I'll have to look, but I actually think there's a for kids version of that. But yeah, I mean, finding out their love language, but then also speaking to them differently at different times, because to me, it's, it's fun to figure that out. You know, sometimes it is words of affirmation and other times it's like, hey, kids, like, we're gonna go on a vacation. And that's a gift, right? And a gift. Other times it might be, hey bud, let's go out and go hit some batting practice. Or my oldest son likes to shoot lacrosse and train. And so I'll go out there and shoot with him. Like, I don't directly say I love you in those moments. But that's an act of service.

• 15:21Speaker 00

  I'm training with him. I'm helping him. We're spending time, we're laughing, we're getting to know each other better. So to your point, there is a lot of different ways to do it. And it just keeps it more engaging. It keeps it more fun for you and, and for the people you're trying to express your, your love for.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there's power in that novelty of it. There really is.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  All right, Trent Osgood, how do you rebuild trust with your kids after a divorce? When they blame you for it and even, even if you weren't the one who left?

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, yeah, narratives, right? Going back to narratives, they're going to create a narrative and it's going to be based on their own experiences, based on what mom's saying, based on what you've said. And I had this, I had, I had some of this. I still deal with a little bit of the fallout from this with my, my daughter in particular.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  I think the first thing that you need to do is just be very, very honest about the situation. You, you don't need to overshare information they don't need because there's a concept called parentification. You don't want to turn your children into parents. You don't want them to, you don't want them to think that they have to take care of you in some way, or manage your emotions, or, you know, to take care of you somehow. That happens all the time. It's horrible for, for kids. So you wouldn't overshare that way. And you got to consider your motives for sharing. But if you haven't done this already, the first step is to sit down with each of your kids as appropriate, based on their age and maturity level, and just have a reckoning. You

• 16:58Speaker 00

  know, have a, and think about that word reckoning, reconcile, right? Reconcile means aligning two different things. So if you're reconciling your bank account, you're, you're actually looking at the numbers on your bank account and reconciling it with the expenses that you've had to make sure everybody's on the same page and it's all matching. Well, reconciling in, in a relationship with your children is to say, hey, guys, like, here were my actions. Here's me acknowledging my actions. And here is my plan moving forward. So if you've never had a deep conversation about whatever they think it is, and it's really not about you, but whatever they think is happening,

• 17:43Speaker 00

  or whatever reason they're blaming you, I would have a real honest conversation and, and not try to justify, not try to rationalize. A lot of us as men will say, well, only if only they knew the actual story, if only they knew my side of the story, then it would be okay. You know, you know what that sounds like? It sounds like you dismissing or invalidating what they're feeling. So acknowledge how they feel. If it's way off base, you know, thank them for the hard conversation that it, that it requires, the courage it requires to tell their dad something uncomfortable. And then just be very honest and upfront, like, hey, you know, guys, I did this

• 18:26Speaker 00

  and this. I would have done that differently. I'm sorry. Here's the, here's the pain it caused for you and for mom. And here's the fallout from that. I, I don't think you should shy away from that. And the more conversations I had about those types of things, the more my kids realized, oh, okay, well, maybe dad still is to blame. But at least he's coming to terms with it. He's being honest with it. He's being truthful with us. And he's following through on the plan that he told us he was going to live to. And that's the, that's the impetus for building trust in any relationship. Trust, honesty.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  I love it. And I don't know, like, I love to deep dive into this a little bit and say, it's like, what is it? Well, you know what I mean? Like when in this circumstance, or even in other circumstances, when someone doesn't trust us, what, what's real, what does that mean? Not to trust someone? That we question their motive, maybe? We question whether they care about us, right? Or if they're reliable, right? And so I would, I would beat that up a little bit and say, you might beat that up and go, oh, well, actually, it's warranted. Because ever since the divorce, I'm inconsistent, I'm not reliable. You know what I mean? Like, so really, really beat up,

• 19:47Speaker 01

  what is it, right? That generates trust? And, and I've used a formula and I'll share it here as a consideration. It's not truth. It's not absolute. I'm sure there's elements of it that I'm missing. But I, but I, but I call it the three, what is it? Three Cs times I. And the three Cs are character. So you have to be a person of integrity of some sort, right? Your, your, your character can't be out of whack, right? Character, consistency. And consistency is really interesting because we don't think about this very often. But if you're an unreliable resource, or people don't know what they're getting from you, they can't trust you. So consistency is super

• 20:31Speaker 01

  important. The third, I'm, I'm shooting off the hip here, I'll probably miss something, is connection. Some form of relationship with them. Right? We don't trust people blindly that we don't have a connection with. And then the fourth, which is the times I, is intent. I've been around people that, oh, it's connection. I may have messed that up. It's actually capability. Are they capable? That's more of a, in a work environment. But connection is good for our kids. But intent is why are we doing what we're doing? I've, I've worked with people that had

• 21:10Speaker 01

  great character. They were consistent. They were great at what they did. But their intent was out of alignment with what I wanted. And none of that mattered. It was, they were doing it for their own benefit or something else. And so intent is super, super important. And actually, if intent is not aligned, it will, all those other things actually don't matter. If, if intent is not aligned with, with what they want.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love that. I love it. You know, the one that really, that I, that I hone in on this is consistency. That's been the most helpful in the relationship with my kids as a result of the fallout from, from the divorce. But one thing that's really important to know, and I think this is a man's moral obligation, and, and it goes for any relationship, is that you, you want your people to be safe, to feel safe. If they feel safe, it's kind of like discipline equals freedom, right? If they feel safe, they're free to express themselves. They're free to flourish in the relationship. They're, they're free to enjoy and be fulfilled in life if you can keep them safe.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  But I think sometimes we have a misconception of that. We think, well, I'm not going to abuse my kids or my wife. Like, I'm not going to physically abuse them or yell at them. And while that's an element of physical safety, that's not really what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about emotional safety, where they are free to express themselves. They are free to share. They are free to speak with you openly and honestly. They are free to even be themselves because they know you're not going to judge them or make them feel stupid for liking Pokemon or some other obscure thing that they happen to be into. So your job is to be as predictable as possible. And that goes across the spectrum.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Even in your discipline, by the way, that's, it's actually safer if they know that, hey, if they step over this line, here's the boundary, here's the discipline, and you administer that consistently. Because then they know, like, there's no guesswork in it. The only time that a man should be unpredictable is, as it relates to his relationships, is if it's something good. So for example, hey babe, I just want to let you know, Friday night, none of us had plans. I got us reservations at the new steakhouse, babysitter's all set. Wear your dress, we're going out. Okay, that kind of unpredictability is good. That makes you attractive.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  But anything else outside of those types of unpredictable moments should be avoided at all costs.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I love that. Okay, what are we at? Sorry, I'm all over the place. Cole Whitfield, I got sober four years ago, and I'm proud of it, but I still feel like the guy at the party who can't be trusted to have fun. How do you make peace with that? What do you mean by that? Like, can't have fun? Like, people may not invite him because he doesn't drink and so he's not fun to be around?

• 24:24Speaker 00

  I mean, it could be, he could be a stick in the mud. Yeah. I mean, look, the reality is, is there's a reason we call alcohol, you know, social lubricant. People get fun, they get loose, they get a little sloppy. They sometimes say hilarious things and stumble all over themselves. And it, it can be fun, right? So if you're not doing that, then I guess if you use that as a crutch, it's really easy to be that stick in the mud, so to speak. I wonder if you're feeling this more than they are? That might be something, like, you don't feel as loose. You, maybe you don't feel like you're having as much fun. So what I would encourage you to do is to be fun. Find, go do things you enjoy, right?

• 25:08Speaker 00

  If it's watching a football game, if it's getting a bunch of guys for fight nights and doing a barbecue, if it's going on a hike, if it's fixing a car, working on projects, what is it that you really enjoy? And invite guys into your circle. Because then you're going to be fun by default. And yeah, that's what I would do. I would just identify what, what, what would be fun to you? Like, what makes you fun? What makes life enjoyable outside of having a drink and needing that for social lubricant?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. How, how often do you feel guys have to change their circle strictly because they're not drinking anymore? Do you think that's common?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Probably yes. Not, not in my circle, just because of, of who I'm around. And I've been very deliberate and intentional about spending time with the right people. And, and I always have for the most part. But yeah, I, based on what I know and what I've heard, heard, yeah, quite often you've got some friends that you really need to set some boundaries around. And, and maybe those guys, you just don't go drink with those guys. Like, not that they can't be your friends, but maybe there's a boundary and, and you say to yourself, like, that's a guy I don't go drink with. And so, but, but we go golf together, which you gotta be careful of because plenty of people golf while they're drinking too.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  But I, I had a friend one time and I, I asked him, I said, hey, I don't even know how it got brought up. I said, we were talking about fishing. I'm like, do you drink when you fish? He's like, oh, no, no. I was like, oh. He's like, I fish when I drink.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  And I was like, oh, got it.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  The drinky came first, yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  Exactly. That's the priority. But no, I, Kip, I, I would assume, based on what I've heard, that the, the circle does need to change quite often. Yeah, for sure.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, which makes that even harder, probably, you know, to be sober.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  If you're with those people or if you're losing friendships about it?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Well, losing friendships are, like, it makes that decision even harder, right? If, if you have to switch up your, your circle as, as part of the behavior, I mean, that, that, it's sad. There's an element of sad to that. I mean, I've, I've, you know, I've changed circles before in my youth, primarily when, you know, I was with a group that was super just in a bad space, you know? And I love those guys. But it's like the, there's the Offspring song, if you remember that band, that was like, this street, and it was talked about, like, how everybody on that street, like, just is in jail, right? And, and they're, they're all in bad places. And I had that street.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  In fact, that same group of friends, like, one's been in jail his entire life. One's a paraplegic because of a drug deal gone bad. I mean, just really bad group. But I remember at one point going, you know, and it was when I was a senior in high school, I remember going like, leaving a party in the middle of the night, going, this is goodbye to these guys. Like, I'm not hanging out with these guys anymore, you know? And it was sad. But it wasn't out of anger. It was just like, this doesn't, this is not going to work for me and my future, you know? And luckily, right, to, to some extent, so.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  I, you know, one thing I was thinking of with the friend group thing, friend group thing is, I've found personally, and for most of the men that I've talked with, that if they're just forthright with the guys in their circle about not drinking, 99.9% of the people you're spending time with, although they may not, not drink, they'll support you in your decision. But it's your responsibility to let them know. So if you're going to go out with the guys, you don't have to hide it. That's, sometimes people hide it. They'll get like, they'll get a non-alcoholic drink and pretend they're drinking alcohol and they won't tell anybody. I don't know if it's embarrassment or they want to be included and not ostracized from the group. There's probably a lot of human psychology that goes behind that. I would do the opposite.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  I'd be like, hey, guys, yeah, I'll, I'll go out. I'll go out to, to the game and, and hit some bar. If you can, right? Some of you, like, I, I probably wouldn't want to do that personally. But if you felt inclined to do that, just tell the guys, like, hey, I'm going to be designated driver tonight, guys. I'm not drinking. A lot of you guys know I'm, I'm in my walk in sobriety. And it would mean a lot to me if you don't ask me if I, if I can have a drink or you don't, like, keep trying to give me drinks. It would be helpful for me if, if you guys could support me in that. 99.999% of your friends would be like, yeah, brother, of course. And you might even pick up somewhere like, yeah, I won't drink for 30 days with you. I'll try that. So just be honest about it. Nobody cares.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Well, and that's, that's what I love about the IC because like, if, if you do have a circle of guys that are going to give you grief, you need to be upgrading your circle anyway, right?

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Like, absolutely.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  And, and I could say this with certainty, there is going to be almost zero men within the Iron Council that if you communicated what you're about and something's important to you and what you're striving for, that not only would they not give you grief, they're going to rally behind you and support you in the thing that you've declared. So, man, if, if you don't have that circle, get that circle. Obviously, an option to get that type of circle is, is what we do in the Iron Council because we're, we've, more or less, you've created an environment where we can surround our size, surround ourselves with like-minded men. And not like-minded in goals, like-minded about showing up powerfully.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  And when you're on the path of progression, you support others on their path, even if it's different than your own. You know, and, and there's, there's power in that momentum that we have.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  I mean, we had a guy today on the call. I don't know if you were on this morning's call, but I was asking guys about their wins, you know, what's going well, what do you have coming up this weekend? And one of our members jumped in and he's like, hey, I'm kind of in a valley right now. I don't, I don't have a win. I, I feel a little bit stuck. You know, I've got a few things going on here and there. And he's like, I'm not really looking for sympathy. I just, I'm kind of feeling it. And we had a bunch of guys raise their hand, jump in, pour into this guy. I told him, I said, you know, call me, I'll call you this afternoon. We can talk about it. But it's pretty sad that most men don't have, have people like that. And then there's one other point that I made a couple of days ago about this, up, like you said, I like the phrase you used, upgrading your circle. There, guys need to understand this.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  There's a difference between people asking questions and questioning.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  So if you've got a group of friends or somebody in like the Iron Council, for example, and they're asking you questions, that comes from a position of curiosity and a desire to help and hold you accountable. Questioning is pessimistic. It's like, why are you doing this? That's stupid. Like, I don't get it. It's a different line of, right? It's more of a, they're critiquing or interrogating than they are asking thoughtful, curious questions. So be careful with that, because just because somebody's asking you questions doesn't mean they're questioning you. They might actually really care about you, and you need to allow guys like that to pour into your life. I mean, Kip, you're that for me. You know, I can bring things to you. You can bring things to me. If I bring something

• 32:48Speaker 00

  up, you might ask me some questions that aren't like comfortable, that I don't really want to address, but I know the intent is for you to serve me in some way. And so I can deal with the discomfort, knowing that you're doing it for the right reasons, and it will help me in my life.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Learn more, orderofman.com/ironcouncil, right? If you guys want to bandwidth us there. All right. Nathan Cross, my best friend since college moved across the country, and we barely talk anymore. It's male friendship supposed to fade like that? Or did I let something die that I should have fought for?

• 33:31Speaker 00

  So I wouldn't say supposed to fade like that. Supposed to is kind of a weird choice of words there. Right? Now, is it, is it gonna be the same? No, he lives across the country. But there's nothing to keep you from maintaining contact, texting, calls, periodically, trips, you know, planned trips. He comes out to you, you go out to him, you meet somewhere in the middle, you get a group of guys together. Those are decisions that you can make. So supposed to fade out like that? No, I don't, I don't think so. It's just a matter of what you want to do. What was the second half of the question, though, Kip?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Or should I have fought for it, right?

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Oh, well, should, again, should I have? What that means, that connotates, is that you want to. You wouldn't ask that question. But i- is it over? You know, like, oh, I should have fought. What are you talking about? Like, you didn't, you didn't have a divorce.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not too late.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  It's not like you're never gonna, yeah, like, so should you fight for it? If it's important to you, yeah, you should reach out to him. You should try to maintain the relationship. You should try to keep that contact. You should have a schedule for reaching out to him and connecting and checking in and seeing how he's doing. And you should plan an annual trip or more frequently. Yeah, of course. If it's meaningful to you. I mean, good friendships are hard to come by. Like, there's a scene in Tombstone, and one of the guys is asking Doc Holliday why he's does things with Wyatt Earp, even though he doesn't have to. They just got done with a gunfight. And, and he asks him, you know,

• 35:08Speaker 00

  why are you here? You don't have to be here. And Doc Holliday says, Wyatt Earp is my friend. And the guy says, hell, I got lots of friends. And Doc says, I don't. So if you have a friendship with somebody that means something to you, then yeah, you need to invest in it. Absolutely.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it will die out if you don't probably invest in it, right?

• 35:33Speaker 00

  Of course. Yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So put in the necessary effort.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  And by the way, like, we're horrible. Guys are horrible at this. So don't expect him to, to be any better. If you really want to maintain the relationship, then the responsibility is on you. Now, he has a part to play, for sure. But it has to be you. Leaders go first. Men always go first. That means you have to start and initiate.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Grant Holloway, I read Marcus Aurelius and the Book of Proverbs side by side most mornings. Is that a contradiction? Or is wisdom just wisdom wherever it comes from?

• 36:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Sometimes my kids, my 10-year-old will say something silly and stupid, and then I'll think about it for a minute. I'm like, yeah, actually, that's kind of a good, that's interesting. That's actually kind of a good point. But it, but it wasn't in the Bible. So does that make it blasphemous?

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Yes, it does.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  I never, yeah, clearly. I never understood the, the link or the, the challenge that some people have with, with believing in Christianity and also embracing concepts of Stoicism. I don't, I don't understand that. Do you understand that?

• 36:45Speaker 01

  I don't. But I remember, man, like, when I joined the Iron Council, I had a guy on my battle team, super religious guy. And, and I remember him reaching out to me. He's like, how do you, how do you balance those two things when they're in conflict? I'm like, what? They're in conflict? I'm like, uh, I think it's principles are principles. They're expressed slightly different in a different way, you know, and, and, and I love something. I, I had a great conversation with my son. It was a couple of years ago. He wasn't, you know, kind of fought against me from a religious perspective, not fought, but, you know, kind of rejected organized religion as a teenager. But for whatever

• 37:27Speaker 01

  reason, he just latched on to Stoicism really well. And, and he reads everything there is to read around Stoicism. And I remember we're, we're on a drive, and he shares with me, he goes, you know, Dad, what's really interesting is the more I study Stoicism, I realize like how much of a stoic Jesus was.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  And I'm like, dude, I love that. And, and then I said this to him, and this is kind of my, would be my counsel to Grant here, is I told him, I'm like, Ian, you know what I think God's gospel is? You know what the gospel is? Truth and principles. Period. Some of them you will get from the Bible. Some of them you'll get through wisdom and experience. Some of them you'll learn from your kids. That's all part of the same group of, of God's gospel, in my opinion. So.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I would agree with that. The only issue I would take with, with them, with two, with two ideas being in conflict, is if they actually compete with each other.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are they really conflicting?

• 38:39Speaker 00

  If the Bible said, right. So if the Bible says, you know, be a good and decent human being, and then you're reading like, the Book of Satan or something, and it says, you know, despise all people, think the worst of them, and treat them like garbage. Yeah, that would be a conflict. And I would hope that we would naturally gravitate more towards biblical principles than satanic ones. But I can't think of a principle in Stoicism. I mean, the whole concept of Stoicism is to understand your emotions, regulate yourself well, know who you are, know what triggers you, respond properly. Yeah. I mean, Jesus Christ, how many times has, have we seen stories where he had every reason to blow

• 39:22Speaker 00

  up and chastise and criticize and mock and be upset and be, I mean, even on the cross, he was stoic. So I, he's telling, he's, he's telling God, forgive them, as he's nailed to the cross. That seems like it's a pretty complimentary concept. So I would be careful of getting so dogmatic in something that we can't explore other good things, because I think truth is everywhere, to your point.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And the highest echelons of understanding is in the space of analyzing, criticizing, you know what I mean, disrupting, right? If you're just, you know, take, if, if, if I'm taking something that I'm getting from you, Ryan, as truth always, then I've stunted my understanding of what you're trying to teach me. Right? So like, you know, figure it out for yourself, right? And, and disrupt it a little bit.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  There's actually, okay, so I'm just trying to understand, because this question gets brought up so often. I'm really trying, I'm like, just trying to rack my brain here. Here's one thing I'd be careful of. If, if you're, if you're a religious person, let's say you're a Christian, and you're faithful and devout, there is a risk in starting to worship other concepts, even if it is Stoicism. Or, or the, or the people of those things, right? Like, sometimes, even me, we, we almost idealize our, like, founding fathers, for example, George Washington. And we elevate him to this messianic, almost, figure. We

• 41:00Speaker 00

  do have to be careful of that. And the reason I think we have to be careful of that is because I call it the doctrine of popular culture, changes based on what's popular in culture. So if I get so dogmatic about Stoicism or some other ideological movement, I have to know that that thing is going to flex and bend as culture and circumstances and situations change, which might lead me down a path that is not principle-based.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  Versus the idea of the gospel is that it's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And it's unshakable. It's built on these principles regardless of what is happening around us. And that is a more principled, firm approach to live your life by. So that's one thing I would say be careful of is, is making these ideologies.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Spiritual in nature.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  They're not.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  I love that. And those people will fail us. Right? The minute you read a story about George Washington having slaves, now you're like, oh, my gosh. Right? Like, now what? You idolize this guy. And now, how are you going to deal with that? And so, and that's the power, right, of, of like, Christ, to be frank, is his perfection.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  It gives a firm foundation where you can say, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna worship. But they, he doesn't have the faults of men. So that works out pretty well for us, right? But if it's anybody else, you're gonna get disappointed, right?

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you can put Christ on the pedestal. In fact, he's commanded us to. So you're safe there.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Good one. Good one to select. All right, Silas.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Do, it's French, man. Silas, there you go. Um, I got hurt in a hunting accident two years ago and haven't been able to get back into the field since. How do I stay a man of the outdoors when my body won't cooperate anymore?

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Well, again, I don't know the extent of your injuries, but I'm gonna challenge your premise. Okay, there's a guy, and I can't, I can't think of the name of his organization that he's with, but his name is Sidney Smith. You can look him up. He's been on the podcast. He's a good friend of mine. He had a medical condition where he ended up having his two legs amputated. And he has blades and he's an avid hunter and he, I think he just got an elk in the last week or two. I mean, this is a guy who has a reason to say, I can't go out into the field. But he also works with an organization that brings people out on hunts.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  Um, and, and they're in wheelchairs, non-verbal, neurological disorders, and they're successfully hunting. Uh, we had a guy on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, Brent Oliver, who had a, a crippling debilitating motorcycle injury, where he, I mean, by all intents and purposes, he should be dead. And he hunts. He's out, he just texted me a couple of days ago. He's like, yeah, I'm out hunting. We're gonna go hunting. We're doing this and doing that. He's building outdoor walkways for people to be able to explore and enjoy the outdoors. So I'm just gonna challenge the premise a little bit.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  And, and tell you that there's probably a way, even though it won't be obviously to the same degree that it was before. And I think that's why it's so important that we look at things as objectively as possible and deal in reality. The reality is not that you can't do it. The reality is that it will be different. And if you can come to terms with that, then you might find a way to do something you love and really enjoy it in spite of whatever injuries you might be suffering from.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Beckett Rourke, my wife makes more money than me and I still catch myself feeling less of a man for it. How do you actually kill that voice instead of just ignoring it?

• 45:11Speaker 00

  Make more money.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Address the issue where the voices. Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  I, I mean, that's part of it. It is part of it.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  This is interesting.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  I would feel the same way.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  You know, I would feel that way. I think most men would.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, is, but is the question, let me, let me ask you this, Ryan. Is the question really about money? Or is the power of his question in, I have a voice, a narrative that I constantly repeat in my mind? And how do I kill that voice instead of just ignoring that voice? And maybe the distinction between those two things?

• 45:49Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think what it, what it really boils down to is a sense of worth. You, your worth in, in your mind, from your perspective, feels diminished. Whether it's true or not, I, that, your wife can have that conversation.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Your truth.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Maybe she, like, whatever, right? Like,

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  But, but you have a sense of worth issue here. So the question is, why is your identity, your sense of worth wrapped up in your paycheck?

• 46:20Speaker 00

  I actually think that that is a big part of being a man. So part of my sense of worth is tied to my capability, to my ability to put food on our table and a roof over our head. So I actually, I do think that. But I also think that my worth is, goes beyond that. You know, when I coach my kids' sports teams, or have difficult conversations with them, or I'm answering questions, whether they're just silly and crazy questions, or deep and thoughtful questions, um, spending time together, being around friends, um, pouring into friends if they're struggling, serving people, being available in the community, trying to be a good and decent human being, giving back where I can.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  There was this lady the other day, I walked out of the store and she, I don't know what it was. She was just sitting there and she just looked sad. She was homeless. She just looked sad. And so I leaned down and I just started talking to her and, um, she had a hard time communicating with me, but she, she said she was hungry. She didn't ask me for anything. I was asking her, I'm like, are you thirsty? It's hot outside. I'm like, are you thirsty? Are you hungry? She's like, yeah, a little. Like, cool. So I gave her $10 and I said, you know, it's not much, but there's a gas station right around the corner. You know, why don't you go over there and get some water and get a sandwich or something? It's like, that, there's, there's so many other things about life that, that enhance your level of worth to yourself and to the people around you than money.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  So ask yourself, why, why is it so heavily weighted towards that? And can I focus on, yeah, sure, increasing my ability to make money? Um, and also developing my worth and other aspects of my life? And then the one other thing I would say here too, is also, I'm gonna say it's gonna sound rude, but I'm not meaning it rude, but like, how about a little gratitude for your wife? Awesome. Like, awesome. She makes great money and provide, and helps provide. Now, look, that's not the arrangement that I would want in my family dynamic. And I've been pretty vocal about that. But if that works for you and her,

• 48:29Speaker 00

  I think you, I think you open a can of worms in some other areas, but if it works for your dynamic, cool. Good.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'd be honest with yourself, right? It's like, oh, my self-worth. Well, so are you pulling your weight in other areas? Like, are you out of alignment, really? Like, are you really sitting back going, hey, you know what? I'm not providing that much value. That might be true.

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  So, and the way to fix that is not to be like, no, no, it's okay. You know, it's like, no, it's actually to do something about it. Right? Whether that's, well, I'm gonna show up more powerfully at home. I'm gonna show up more powerfully in other areas of my life. I'm gonna look for other areas to contribute. Why? Not because it's a tit for tat, because you want to be careful of that, but because I want to be a man of value.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  I want to contribute more than I do.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  And let that be the driving factor, not the comparison. That comparison trap could be a little bit dangerous in the circumstance, right? And almost creates some competition between you and her too.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And some resentment from, from both of you, by the way.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally. Let's,

• 49:37Speaker 00

  You know, there's another thing I was thinking of as you were saying that. Yeah, I'll just real quick, and then we'll get to that last question to wrap up, whatever you need to do. Um, but there's another way that you can contribute, you know, if she's making the bulk of the income or, or more income than you are, then you need to be a rock star family CPA.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Maybe, maybe you're the guy who's like, hey, you know, she's making more than me. I'm still bringing money to the table, but I'm gonna make sure our budget is always locked in, we're dialed in. I'm, I'm gonna learn how to invest in real estate on the side. And I'm gonna find us a home that we can either buy and flip, or we can rent out or Airbnb. And, and that's another way to contribute financially outside of just, because you can't just go flip a switch and make more money than her now. But you can do a lot of other things regarding your finances that actually generate additional revenue over time and provide in a financial way, kind of roundabout way to, to the family household income.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's spot on. All right, Wesley Thorncott, I'm gonna kind of reword his question a little bit, so it's a little bit more applicable to the listeners. He says, I've been in a men's group for a year now and it's changed everything, but my brother uh, thinks it's a cult, right? Family members thinking it's a cult or some weird thing. He says, how do you defend a brotherhood to people who never had it? And so let the, the flip of the question is, is what recommendations, Ryan, do you have maybe for the guys of the Iron Council? You're right, that, that may have heard this around the IC, right? You meet with a bunch of weird guys online and, and uh, what's this all about? It seems cultish. What's, what's maybe the council for those guys? Because, you know, obviously that's closer for us to relate to.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, first of all, why do you feel the need to defend it? Like, if it's good for you and you've been doing it for a year, what do you need to defend? A thought that you live a better life, that you're happier, that you're making more money, that you're paying off debt, that your wife and you are in a better situation? I mean, I think the result, you said you've been in a group for a year. I think the results speak for themselves. If it's a cult, best cult ever.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  Um, so, yeah, I, I, I don't really feel the need to defend those types of things. But you know what I would do instead of just defending? Is I would just ask questions.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Right? Just, just say, hey, like, when you say it's a cult, like, what about it makes it seem like a cult?

• 52:11Speaker 00

  And, and what elements of a cult would you obviously, you know, think are, are, are bad or wrong? Or when you think about your own life, do you feel like everything's locked in and dialed in? And in your good? Or do you feel like there's gaps in your life? And if there are gaps, what, what do you think is missing? Let that person talk. Like, if you really want to talk with your brother about it, let him talk about what's going good and well and not so well in his life. Because a lot of the times, people like this will end up just talking themselves into the correct behavior once they start to analyze it and review it thoughtfully and correctly.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is powerful.

• 52:46Speaker 00

  I wouldn't sell it. I would just ask questions.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah. I love it. I love it. And, um, you know, in, on that note, you know, we talked about this earlier, you know, power of the Iron Council. You know, if you need to upgrade your circle, or you want the fruits, right? That come with being with like-minded men that are committed to, to growth and progression in their lives. Um, join us, join us in the Iron Council. That's orderofman.com/ironcouncil to learn more. Um, and if you're okay with a wrap up, just a call out, you know, follow Mr. Mickler on the socials on X and Instagram, at Ryan Mickler. Um, and maybe another call out, just, you know, if you're in a PC, I, I don't know about you, but like, when I worked in corporate America in a work setting,

• 53:30Speaker 01

  I'd never listen to a podcast during the day. I always watched YouTube videos of a podcast instead. Because I was on my computer. So note that you have that option to, to listen to the podcast that way, um, on the YouTube channel.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  Awesome. Well, guys, great questions today. As always, hopefully we gave you some things to consider. Pushed back a little bit on some of your questions, but also, you know, it's a discussion, right? We're not always gonna see things eye to eye. And maybe you think, oh, that was good, or that was not good. Let's continue the discussion. You can do that in one of two different places on uh, YouTube or Instagram primarily, uh, or like you said, Kip, you can join us in the Iron Council and we can start hashing some of these out, these things out on a deep and meaningful level. Guys, I appreciate you. Kip, I appreciate you as well. And we will be back on Friday for our Friday Field Notes. Until then, guys, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.