ALEX HARRIS | Why the "Let's Find Out" Mentality Matters to Men

Most of us think courage is something you either have or you don't. But what if it's actually a decision you make over and over, the same way you'd train a muscle? Today's conversation is about what happens when you stop asking "what if I fail" and start asking, "let's find out." We get into why 90% of what we fear never happens, how to raise kids with grit in a culture built for convenience, and why the most dangerous thing a man can do isn't the risk he takes…it's the potential he leaves untapped. My guest today, Alex Harris https://www.instagram.com/explorealexharris/, has summited Everest, walked unsupported to the South Pole, and made the first-ever unsupported crossing of Arabia's "Empty Quarter" on foot. But this isn't a conversation about extreme sports. It's about the mindset that separates the guy who stays inside the fence from the guy who goes and finds out what's on the other side of the wall. If you've ever felt like you're sitting on something you haven't had the guts to go pursue, this one's for you. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - Introduction & Hiking the Zion Narrows 04:55 - Changing Risk Profile & Fatherhood 08:45 - Evaluating Risk vs. Reward 09:49 - Broad Peak Expedition & Turning Point 14:18 - Lower-Risk Adventures & Family 18:52 - Cultivating Adventure in Children 22:21 - Building Grit and Life in South Africa 23:51 - Media Narratives vs. South African Realities 26:51 - Reasons for Immigrating to Texas 32:41 - The Journey to US Citizenship 36:56 - Cultural Differences and Adapting to Texas 46:17 - Unplanned Path to Becoming an Extreme Athlete 50:39 - Curiosity and Unlocking Potential 53:57 - Redefining Failure and Managing Fear 01:01:27 - Forging Untrodden Paths & The Arabian Desert 01:06:00 - A Unique Moment in Cave Exploration 01:11:41 - Purpose, Choice, and Stifled Curiosity 01:15:30 - Where to Connect with Alex Harris Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Most of us as men think that courage is simply something that you either have or you don't. But what if it was actually a decision that you make over and over and over again, the same way you train any other muscle? And today's conversation is about what happens when you stop asking, what if I fail? And start asking, let's find out. We get into why 90% of what we fear never happens, how to raise kids with grit in a culture that is definitely built for convenience, and why the most dangerous thing I think a man can do isn't the risk that he takes, it's the potential that he leaves untapped.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  My guest today, Alex Harris, has summited Everest, walked unsupported to the South Pole, and made the first ever unsupported crossing of Arabia's empty quarter on foot. But this really isn't just a conversation about extreme sports. It's about the mindset that separates the guy who just stays stuck, trapped, sedated inside the fence, from the guy who goes out and actually finds out what's on the other side of that wall. So if you've ever felt like you're sitting on untapped potential, something that maybe you even haven't had the guts to pursue in the past, you're going to really enjoy this episode.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  And maybe you won't, because I think it might just push you to take your game to the next level.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Man, what's going on? My name is Brian Mickler. I'm your host and founder. A lot of you guys obviously are repeat listeners, and we've, I'm sure, have some new listeners as well. Glad you're tuning in. If you're a man, if you're married to a man, if you have a son, this one's for you. All of it is for you, regardless of who you are. But I do want you to know, we talk about all things masculinity and manliness in a society that continues to be dismissive of it. I think a lot of things have changed over the past several years, and I think people are waking up to the realization that men are needed now more than ever.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  But it's also not a podcast that is geared towards painting women as the enemy. I don't think men or women are the enemy. I think there's incredible women and incredible men, and I think there's horrible women and horrible men. And my goal is to make us all better, working together, but primarily through elevating our abilities, capabilities, and the way that we show up as men. So, got a good one lined up for you today. But before I get to it, just want to mention, speaking of good men, every good man has a knife. You know it, I know it. If you don't, you know somewhere deep down in your soul that you should have a knife.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  We are tool-wielding animals. We are required to have tools that make us more capable for the everyday, whether that's cutting up a steak, picking your teeth, breaking down an animal in the woods, protecting a loved one, protecting and defending yourself. You gotta have a good knife. And there's no better place than my friends over at Montana Knife Company. They are making knives in America. So if you're gonna have a knife, you might as well have one made in America, and you might as well have one made from Montana Knife Company. Head over to montanaknifecompany.com, use the code ORDEROFMAN. I'm actually inventorying all my knives right now, because I've got some fall hunts I'm very excited about,

• 4:07Speaker 00

  and I fully plan on getting those things bloody. So guys, check it out, montanaknifecompany.com, use the code ORDEROFMAN. Save some money when you do. Now, let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Alex Harris. I'm not sure if you've heard of him, but he is one of the world's most accomplished extreme adventurers. He's the first South African to walk unsupported to the South Pole, the first person to cross Arabia's empty quarter on foot without support. Talks a little bit about that today in today's conversation. And a summater of the seven summits, including Everest. For over more than 30 years and 60-plus expeditions,

• 4:51Speaker 00

  he's paired a sports psychology degree with firsthand experience in what is no contest, the world's harshest environments, to understand what actually drives human performance under pressure. He's also a record-breaking ultra endurance cyclist and the founder of the Mungu, which is a grueling 1,100-kilometer, single-stage bike-packing race across South Africa's Karoo. Alex now channels his over 30 years of expedition wisdom into keynote speaking, delivering talks like Making the Impossible

• 5:32Speaker 00

  and Facing Your Own Everest to organizations across five continents at this point, from Harmony Gold to Coca-Cola to Deloitte. And he and his wife recently relocated their family of six from South Africa to Texas to Dallas. We welcome him here. And it's a decision that he treats with the same deliberate, faith-driven approach that he's brought to every single summit, every single desert crossing, and you can find him over at explorealexharris.com. Gentlemen, you're gonna like this one. Alex, what's up, my friend? So good to see you. Glad I could have you on the Order of Man podcast.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Well, it's a great honor to be here, so thank you for having me.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  I told you not to tell me too much, but before we hit record, you told me you were in my neck of the woods, what, a month ago, hiking the Narrows? How amazing is that?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  You know, I was blown away. I mean, obviously, I'd read about Zion being a climber all my life. I just remember seeing pictures and making a mental note to go there one day. But the occasion now was surprising. I've been working with some guys from the Colleyville Christian Academy. It's a private school in Colleyville, yeah, in Dallas. And so, there's this group called The Watchmen that are really just parents, that husbands that stand accountable, fathers. So I led 45 of these guys up the Narrows, you know? And let me tell you, it's going four miles up that canyon, trying to keep together 45 guys was no easy task, but I was blown away.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  I mean, what a place. Wow.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  How deep was it when you went? Did you guys get up to your chest, up to your waist? Where were you guys at?

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it actually rained a couple of days before and the day before, so we were really down to the wire. But apparently, it just drains so quickly. And most of the time, it was kind of ankle with some knee-deep. But we just went as far as, oh gosh, I forget the compulsory turn if you're bigger than a group of 12, about four miles in. And that last section, there were one or two pools where we got up to shoulder height, you know, if you're six foot. But most of the time, it wasn't too bad. I think they said it was 50 cumics per second or whatever measure they use, you know? But yeah, I mean, it was incredible. But I can see how that place can quickly turn ugly if you're not paying attention to the weather.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Oh, you're right. So it probably was maybe a week or two after you were here, we had massive, massive flooding.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  It would kill you. I mean, if you were in the Narrows, you're dead. Everything drains into the Narrows. It's, you know, you've got debris and wood and logs coming down there. And I actually went up, yeah, no, I went up this weekend, and everything's washed out, and there's sediment just everywhere. The river's still pretty muddy with the dirt settling and everything. It's pretty dangerous, and we had some big flooding down here below Zion, which is where I live. But it can get nasty very, very quickly.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did the bottom-up hike, so we just went from the trailhead, four miles up, turned around. But man, I would love to go back and do the full from the top down. That place is just unbelievable. And then when we flew back, the line you take from St. George back to Dallas flew us right over the Narrows, literally. I was looking out of the plane window, and oh my gosh, that's where we were. We were hiking up there, and it just carries on forever into the mountains.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  It does. Did you guys get a chance to do Angels Landing by chance?

• 9:20Speaker 02

  No, so that was gonna be our backup plan if the park called off the Narrows. But I'm glad we didn't, because when I looked online at what it was, I mean, that's a crazy place, like 19 people have fallen off there, you know? And, you know, they never made it back. Looks pretty intense.

• 9:39Speaker 00

  It looks a lot more intense than it actually, I mean, don't get me wrong. It's intense. I mean, there's areas of the hike that are, yeah, maybe two and a half, three feet wide, and you're holding on to a chain that's anchored into a wall. So that has some intensity with it. And I get a little bit of, I don't particularly enjoy heights. I don't, I don't, I don't like staring down below me and seeing that there's 1,000 feet that I could fall. But I've done that probably half a dozen times now. And it's incredible. So if you come back out, let me know. I'll take you up to Angels Landing. We'll do it together, and we'll have a good time up there.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Sounds fantastic. You know, it looks, I'm also, you know, at the start of my young career, I spent two years cleaning inaccessible skyscrapers, abseiling down ropes on a tiny ledge. So I wasn't scared of heights then, but I noticed about two years ago, I took my kids across a rope bridge in South Africa. And all of a sudden, I was like, whoa, hang on a second. You know, I think I've overcompensated from a life of crazy stuff. I'm now super cautious. My wife's the crazy one now.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Is that, well, that's actually interesting that your wife is, because a lot of the times, it seems, well, I think we all do, when we have that maternal and paternal instinct, where we tend to quiet our more adventurous days. Do you think you attribute that to fatherhood? And then, why don't you think she has the same level of that?

• 11:15Speaker 00

  Concern or whatever it might be that you do.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  So I think a life of just looking after people, you know, and obviously when, when, when I got back from my first Everest expedition in 96, that's when I started my first business guiding people. So for 30 years, the, the focus has always been constantly assessing risk, looking after people in the high mountains, watching the weather, watching the terrain, how close is a guy to the edge, until it becomes second nature. And my risk profile definitely changed when I started, you know, a family and, and I've now got four kids that are between six and 17. So I'm hyper-conscious of risk and probably to a fault, but I'm also aware that, hey, I have

• 12:03Speaker 02

  to facilitate an, an experiential kind of exploring journey with my kids. So it's, it's maybe not that my wife is like super risky. I don't think she is, but I think she's definitely the riskier one between the two of us, probably because I've just spent a life, you know, compensating. And, uh, and it's, it, it kind of catches me. I, I, I have to assess all the time. Okay. Well, what, what, cause really when you're assessing risk, you, you, you get very good at understanding, yes, there's a, a statistical chance of something happening, but the probability of it happening is, is very slim. And so now I find myself just, uh,

• 12:45Speaker 02

  thinking through that, yeah, okay, there is a statistical chance. Let's take our kids on a hike, whatever, but the probability is, is really low risk. So let's do this, you know? But on a day-to-day basis, it's definitely my wife that is a little bit more spontaneity. Hey, let's go do this. Hey, let's go do that. I mean, I'm also an ultra-endurance bike racer. So I'm constantly thinking about consequence, you know, what not to take, how to save weight, what are the chances of this breaking, that breaking. But now as I'm in my kind of mid 50s, I'm realizing, hang on a second, this has become an innate pattern and it's not necessarily always good, you know? It was good looking after people on mountains, but

• 13:28Speaker 02

  it's, it's not necessarily good looking after my kids, you know? So it's kind of that like a conundrum. You don't want your kid to run too close to the fire, but you want them to experience what heat's about, you know?

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Hmm. That's a great way to say it. Not too close to the fire, but experience the heat. Yeah, I, I feel that. You know, I, I definitely feel that with, with my children.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  But, but it's interesting because you're talking about the conundrum and weighing risk versus reward, risk versus being safe or experiencing life. I mean, we all do it every day. The difference is most people just aren't conscious about it. I got in my car this morning and went to the grocery store. Statistically, there is a, a percentage chance that somebody hits me or I get into an accident or whatever it might be and, and I get injured or, or, or die.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  The same as anybody else who gets into a vehicle, but nobody thinks about it. Let me ask you this. This might be a challenging question and, and I'm, I just want to ask questions that maybe you haven't been asked before, or that kind of pushed the bounds of what most people would ask. I, I know you do so much adventuring and you've done some, some wild things by what most people would consider.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  How, how would you feel?

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Maybe that's not the right way to start that question. Let, let me think about this here for a second. Have you ever considered

• 14:57Speaker 00

  what your kids might experience if you were to die on one of these adventures? And what would be the positive and negative outlook from their perspective?

• 15:11Speaker 02

  So, I mean, I have, I, you know, I made an intentional decision back in 2009 to shift the, the trajectory of my risk profile because up to that point, my, my focus when it came to risk was always on specific challenges, circumstances, mountains, elevations, the objective danger. But really on, on an expedition in 2009, I was leading a South African team to climb Broad Peak, which is a 26,000 foot peak, you know, one of the, the 14,000ers. And

• 15:45Speaker 00

  And where is this? This is in South Africa?

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Pakistan. No, in Pakistan.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  Oh, Pakistan. Okay.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so we were right up on the Chinese border in the Baltoro and it's a peak next to K2. So the ulterior motive was to try and make the first South African ascent to Broad Peak, but to look, spend six, seven weeks looking across at K2 to see if there was a safe line to maybe come back the following year and try and make the first South African ascent to K2. And I had my first daughter, she was six, seven months at the time. And on our summit day, well, the, the day before we set out on, for the, the, the summit at High Camp, the, the Lord really challenged me about where the, the trajectory of my life was going. Not so much about the, the decisions, you know, I was making on a, on a day-to-day

• 16:34Speaker 02

  basis. And it wasn't like the choice was, hey, if you push onto the summit, you're gonna die. That wasn't kind of the sense I got, but the, the, the, the choice was, hey, the trajectory you're on is not conducive to growing a family. And so if you want to grow a family, you need to shift the trajectory of your life and your risk. And so I made a decision that, that, that evening, you know, to pull out, uh, to not go the next day for the summit. I didn't feel right in my spirit, you know? And you look back, interestingly, it's where if you followed some of the, the media in the last two months, there was a massive avalanche on Broad Peak that killed Nims, you know, that, that famous Nepalese guy with I think

• 17:14Speaker 02

  maybe 10 or 11 climbers. That avalanche was triggered at exactly the spot where, where I was, you know, where I felt uneasy.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  Was that just recently?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  That was about six weeks ago, maybe two months ago.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  I hadn't, I mean, I've seen this guy. I even reached out to his team to have him on the podcast. He passed away?

• 17:32Speaker 02

  He died. He died in an avalanche on Broad Peak with I think 10 other climbers. Uh, maybe six weeks ago. Yeah, maybe 10 weeks ago, you know? So, look, it was an objectively da, that, that mountain has some objective dangers, but the decision wasn't around the specific danger then. It was around the, the kind of, the trajectory my life was on. And so I made a principled decision to turn around, but to stop going up 8,000 meter peaks, you know? And I would forsake the opportunity to go, go to K2 with some friends a few years later, who, who became the first South Africans to climb, uh, you know, K2. But, so now I,

• 18:11Speaker 02

  I look at risk through the, the, the trajectory that my life was on, meaning that I'm less likely to end up in a situation like two years down the line where I'm on a mountain and I'm really caught, you know, eh, eh, you know, and the, and the shit's about to hit the fan, as, as it were, because I've changed the way I make decisions. To your question specifically, for sure. I mean, you know, the, the, the, the trite answer as well, my father climbs mountains and does all of these things. So he, he died what he was doing. They're gonna be sad, you know, but hopefully I've instilled in them the culture of exploration.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  But that's probably not the truth because, you know, now I, I'm, I'm, I'm just so much more aware of these experiences that we still have a small, so one of the consequences of making that, that principle decision way back in 2009 was that the high peaks part of our business, I, I gave to my partner at the time, you know? And I focused on the speaking, uh, events, leadership stuff. We still do a couple of tours. So I still, you know, once every year or two years, I'll take a group of guys up Kilimanjaro. We've done Orizaba, the heist in Mexico, Guadalupe, a couple of the 14,000ers. We do a bike trip to the islands on Scotland where we cycle from distillery to distillery. I love whiskey.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  So the, the risk of those, it's unbelievable. It's actually, you know, when the sun's shining, which is like one day in the year, it's the most beautiful place on earth. But, uh,

• 19:47Speaker 00

  The only thing I've ever done hiking wise up there is Old, Old Man of Store, I believe it is.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Okay. Yes.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  You know, I, I don't know, what's it like 500 feet or something elevation? I mean, it can't be very significant, but it is beautiful.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So I, you know, I'm probably less likely to have that experience. What might become a reality in my, my timeline is that one of my kids wanna maybe one day go to a big mountain like Everest. And I've often thought about, what do I do if the question from them is, hey, will you come with me and climb Everest, you know? Now that opens a whole Pandora's box that I, I, I, I kind of have left for if the opportunity comes. I think it's unlikely. You know, I think, I mean, I look at my, my trajectory through my life and sort of the guidance I had. I mean, I wanted to be an astronaut and a pilot and that didn't work out. And I was climbing at the same time. So I was

• 20:45Speaker 02

  in a very unusual space career wise as a young climber in South Africa as international doors were opening up. And I was exposed to some really profound opportunities early on that accelerated kind of the, the pathway of becoming a, a sort of a, a, an extreme adventure. It wasn't my intention. And that's an unlikely pathway that my kids will go on. But look, a month ago, we were in Colorado and for the first time, I took them up a proper mountain. We, you know, three of my four kids, we, we climbed three 14,000ers just outside Breckenridge. And I must tell you, it was a wonderful nine hours, you know, to

• 21:25Speaker 02

  see them have the DNA I have or had as a youngster, the energy, but lack the wisdom. I mean, they were running up this first 14,000. I was like, hey, guys.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  Pace it, kids.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Slow down. Later on in the day, they were lying on their backs, you know, and I was still pacing slowly. And yeah, you see, I told you, you can't run on a 14,000er. But it was a wonderful experience just to be able to facilitate a relatively safe thing in an environment I've become so intimate with, but for them was still new, exciting, fresh. And, uh, and, and we'll see where, you know, where the Lord takes that journey. But I, I don't think it'll lead to Everest, but who knows?

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Uh, but, but I, so I'm a little confused why if, is your, you said you have a 17-year-old, I believe is your oldest. Is that what you said?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Yes. Six years, 12 years, 15 and 17. The two older are the girls.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  The girls. Okay. So let's, let's say your 17-year-old said, hey dad, let's go do Everest.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  You would, you would say no?

• 22:31Speaker 02

  I don't think I would say no, but yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I'm definitely saying no. I wouldn't say no, but I'm saying I would leave the specific decisions when that happens. And then I would probably use my experience to try and facilitate a safer journey as possible, you know? But I also know that it's a highly unusual individual, and we've had them over the years, that comes up to me that's never climbed a mountain and says, hey, I want to climb Everest. And then I have to sit the guy down and say, okay, look, you can throw a hundred thousand dollars at the problem and we can prep you for next year, but the chances are you're gonna fail. There's a better investment of your time and energy for you to qualify whether this is really

• 23:13Speaker 02

  something you want to do, and that roadmap looks like Kilimanjaro, Aconcagua in South America, maybe N'Nali in North America. And so the same thing would likely happen with, remember, you know, these things happen along a trajectory that's predictable. It's not likely that my seventeen year old is gonna come up to me and say, hey, let's go do Everest. My fifteen year old has already said she wants to do Kilimanjaro. I'm taking that same group of guys, I took up the Narrows. I'm taking them up Kili next year on a spiritual kind of journey, which is a first, you know, where we theme in the climb along sort of the road of a Christian man. And she was like, I want to come, and I was like, excuse me, I was like, well,

• 23:53Speaker 02

  the particular group is probably not suited because it's a group of men and we're structuring something, but I'm excited you want to do Kilimanjaro and hey, I'd love to do that with you. Now, I know that that might start a path that ends in a conversation about Everest, but that's still some, you know, some time down the line.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  You know, and I appreciate what you said about, hey, this might not be the most, the best environment to do that, to come with forty-five other guys. But I was talking with a friend this weekend, and she was telling me a little bit about when she was growing up, she grew up traveling around and she was in Alaska and her dad did a lot of adventures, and she, she said, you know, she felt bad because she was always, it was always that she was too young, or she was a girl, or she was too small, or, you know, whatever the excuse was.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  And he would come back with these incredible, incredible stories, and she always felt left out. But it sounds like you're not opposed to the idea, you're just trying to find an appropriate way to do it.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, so also, you know, I, one of my passions when we were in South Africa, we've only been a year now, but one of my lifelong passions has been collecting artifacts from one of our wars. We had a war from eighteen ninety-nine to nineteen oh-two called the Boer War between the Boers, which were ostensibly the Afrikaans and the British. Complicated story, but, you know, one of our passions has been exploring the battlefields, looking for cartridges and, you know, and I would take my kids up there. And on those, we would often climb hills and, and, you know, my girls were coming since youngsters. But as they got into dancing and modeling, so both my girls modeled, you know,

• 25:41Speaker 02

  the natural inclination to kind of be a model and spend less time roughing it, inevitably meant that we spent less and less time. But I, you know, I think they still have the desire to explore places because that's what happens when you, when you take your kids outdoors, you know, when you take them away from their devices, regardless of what you're doing out there, whether you're fishing or climbing or hiking. And we've done that, so now, just six weeks ago, we returned to South Africa. My brother, my, my wife's brother was getting married. So we had a wedding, wasn't my intention to take the whole family back within our first

• 26:23Speaker 02

  year of immigrating, but suddenly we've got this wedding and we figured, well, let's take the kids because, hey, we've got a three month summer holiday here in Texas, we've got to do something with them. So we ended up spending six weeks and we, you know, we took six of those days, we went to a favorite part of ours about three, four hours east of Johannesburg in the mountains. We did some hiking, looking for these secret lost waterfalls. And, you know, in the moment, it's tough, like it is for any kid going out of their environment, but afterwards, I mean, it's just special, special memories. So they've kind of grown up with that spirit of adventure, and it's, it's, it's just a matter of time before, like my fifteen year old heard the conversation about Kilimanjaro and say, hey,

• 27:04Speaker 02

  or maybe she, she thought about our Colorado trip, we spent nine hours hiking seven miles up those three fourteen thousanders. It was so easy for them, like physiologically, like, you know, until it wasn't easy because they'd gone too fast, so, you know, maybe the curiosity.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  They're not wise quite yet, but that'll come with age.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  So I think we facilitate inadvertently our lives, what we do naturally allows our kids to sort of map their own path, but especially now, I mean, I'm realizing now in Texas, like how, I don't want to use the word soft, but the downside to convenience and innovation is that the opportunity for kids to do tough things is significantly less. So we notice amongst our kids in their ages, they have more natural grit than their Texas counterparts, simply because life in South Africa is just so much more complicated than life in Dallas, Texas, if that makes sense, you know? And so the need here is to try and foster a way for these kids to go and develop grit and perseverance before it's too late.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, absolutely, I imagine there's a large distinct, well, let me ask you, well, first of all, Dallas is relatively flat, so I'm not sure how much, how much intense hiking you're doing, or climbing, mountaineering, canyoneering, whatever you want to call it. And also, from an American's perspective, you tell me if I'm wrong, I'm very curious. I've been to South Africa once, I was about three, I flew into Johannesburg and it was, and was hunting about three hours north of Johannesburg, near the Botswana border, it was beautiful. I loved it. My oldest son and I had an incredible time, we went out there and hunted.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  But from an American's perspective, it seems to me, what is being portrayed is this, this, well frankly, racism against, against white people is often what we hear. And do you feel like that was, is, number one, is that prevalent? And number two, is that part of your reasoning at all for deciding to come to the States? Or is it completely separate from?

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, that's two really complex questions you've snuck together, they're back to back. So let me address the first one. Look, the narrative that the media puts out inevitably is biased towards more noise and is not necessarily just based in fact. Is there racism in South Africa? Hundred percent. Is there, I mean, I've been the recipient of this kind of, you know, quiet racism when going into a shop and just being ignored by the person on the other side of the counter simply because I'm white.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  The narrative that's been pushed at the moment is this aggressive and ubiquitous, you know, genocide against Afrikaans farmers. That is not entirely true. That is a highly complex scenario, but what you're hearing here is that every white farmer is just the target of a systematic kind of genocide. That's not true. Are there farm murders? Hundred percent. Is crime in South Africa one of the highest in the world? Hundred percent. Do we have some of the highest gender-based violence and rape? There's no question, those stats exist, they've existed for, for, you know, a long time now.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  But it's not like every, and I know this because we have a seven hundred mile ultra race in South Africa that crosses about a hundred farms, and, and I've dealt with white Afrikaans farmers almost all the time. And they're not just subject to random genocide, but the real problem is that that narrative is distracting everyone from the fact that we are a society that's in decline. Crime is rampant, our government is not governing, the rule of law is treated with disdain. These are real issues. And the problem when the, when the media puts such a hardline narrative that it's just genocide,

• 31:22Speaker 02

  that's not entirely true, it distracts people from what the real issue is, and it, and it gives our sort of government a kind of a cop-out, you know, because the real issue is that, hey, we're not accountable and we need to be accountable. So that's the first question, the, you know, what motivated us to immigrate?

• 31:45Speaker 02

  One, the starting point of that was just being really sure that the Lord was calling us to a new season in our life. Now, I can then unpack that and say, okay, what are some of the push factors? And the push factors are for a fact that we, we lived in a, in a neighborhood in Johannesburg, a nice neighborhood, but we had high walls, we had security fence, we had electric fence, we had armed response.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Which is every, like, I was so surprised when I flew into Johannesburg and I was driving around the neighborhoods, it seemed like the, the, the nicer areas were all, the houses were all high fenced in, and it seemed like everything was, you know, very secure. It was very interesting to me, because you don't, you wouldn't see that in Dallas, you certainly wouldn't see it here in Southern Utah.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  No, so, and that's the way of life, you know, so you live in a bubble, and it doesn't matter whether you're a white South African or a black South African, if you're a, a middle-class family living in a city, you'll live in a bubble that protects you because the crime is indiscriminate. And so, the idea of my 15-year-old going outside and running around the neighborhood for a 5K jog, no sensible parent would even contemplate that in Johannesburg, for a variety of reasons, you know? So, these are the push factors, that it's becoming increasingly more complex for a white family to live in South Africa with children. Uh, you know, there, there are, uh, what we call BE, Black Economic

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Empowerment, which are, which are kind of a quota system that started out with, uh, really the right intention, you know, the, the genesis of BE was to try and redistribute some of the enormous wealth that was concentrated in a small elite group of white people at the change of the old dispensation. So, we're going back to the early mid 90s now, and the black population, which were the majority population, had very little of that wealth. So, the genesis of the idea was, was good, but sadly, it's just been largely corrupted. And so, this manifests in all kinds of ways, quotas in the sports teams, in our schools, quotas in, uh, tertiary education institutions, you know? So, life

• 34:02Speaker 02

  is going to become increasingly complex for a white family in South Africa. The pull factors, obviously, were, one, the US offers a opportunity that's, really allows people with potential to do something with their lives, you know? Now, I don't want to say that that's not offered in South Africa, but there's a reason why the US has always been so attractive to immigrants. There's a reason why immigration has been the bedrock of the US system for, for centuries. You've attracted, and if you think about who immigrants are, they're people that are typically, and I'm obviously talking about legal immigrants,

• 34:46Speaker 02

  they're people that are typically problem solvers, they, they risk takers, they, they, they willing to do something different, to gamble a whole lot, and when they get here, they're gonna have to figure out how to work hard, how to, so they, they typically, uh, they have high participate, you know, rates in, in the economy, they, they work hard, they innovate, and, and that's why I personally think the US is, is what it is, you know? So, these are the pull factors, but none of that would have really made much sense if we as a family didn't feel like, and specifically my wife and I, that we weren't in alignment, that, hey, we believe God's calling us. And let me tell you, it was a

• 35:28Speaker 02

  three-year process to get our visa, uh, we, we run a very unique visa category. And in that journey, we would sit down, we, we've always involved our kids in a, in an open sort of family dialogue, hey, this is the season, this is where we're going. We're not a hundred percent sure that, that God's calling us, we're pretty sure. But even if we're wrong about that, we know as a family, we're gonna go on an adventure, we're gonna share a, a chapter in our lives, and it's gonna work out, God's got us, you know? That's kind of the, the, the, the story that we've been, uh, getting our kids to buy. Our kids actually were super excited, but I, I, I won't, you know, lie and sort of sugarcoat the fact that our first year's been hard, you know, like I think it is for

• 36:13Speaker 02

  most people going to another country. It's not a easy thing, culturally, we're different, you don't have the network, you don't have the memories, you know, it's all the times, the 55 years I've spent in South Africa, the, the connection with the people, the connection with the land, it, it forms us in a way that we really don't understand until it's overnight gone, and now you're in a place where you're no longer connected, and you don't have the people and the relationships and the, the memories, the connection with the land. So, you know, it's, it hasn't been easy, but we're, we're convinced that this is, this is where we meant to be, you know? So, I know that's a long way to answer a

• 36:55Speaker 02

  very short question, but it's not a simple thing, taking, you know, four kids, a wife and two dogs to the opposite side of the world, let me tell you.

• 37:05Speaker 00

  All right, guys, I'm just gonna step away real quick. Now, look, you heard Alex talk about turning the impossible into a plan, and that is exactly what we're doing inside of our brotherhood. It's called the Iron Council, and right now, as we head into, in the next, what, week, week and a half, head into Q4, look, the reality is that most guys are just gonna coast it till the end of the year, they're gonna let everything happen to them, they're, they're not gonna be, take initiative or be assertive, and then they're gonna wonder, well, how come things happen to me? Okay, that, that's not what we do here. And it's not the kind of man you are. Inside the Iron Council, you're gonna find men who are like you, who are doing what you want to do. And we use something

• 37:47Speaker 00

  called the Battle Planning Method. Uh, it's how you take the next 90 days of your life, and that's not a long time, guys, 90 days, and we're gonna help you map them out, where you're strong, where you're exposed, uh, what it's gonna take for you to finish this year stronger than you started. And this is not, it's not hype, it's not rah rah, it's not motivational bullcrap. I mean, I'm on Instagram and Facebook and all the social media places, TikTok like you guys are, minus TikTok, you're probably not there, my listeners aren't on TikTok. Uh, but this is, this is not hype, okay? This is, this is a system, battle teams, accountability, men who are gonna hold you to the plan, you're gonna

• 38:29Speaker 00

  have uncomfortable conversations, have uncomfortable conversations with hundreds and hundreds of guys every single day about some of this stuff. So, if you're tired of drifting through life, drifting through whatever came your way, instead of actually dominating what comes before you, then, then join us. Okay, Q4 is going to happen, whether you, you plan for it, or you don't plan for it, it's going to happen. But the only question that remains is whether you're the guy who will let it happen, or you're the guy who's gonna make it happen. Head to orderofman.com/ironcouncil, that's orderofman.com/ironcouncil. Do that right after the conversation, let's finish it up with Alex.

• 39:15Speaker 00

  I'm sure, I mean, I have so many questions, you know, it's, I, I do, and I'll start with this, love that you made the distinction between two, I wouldn't say classes necessarily, but two mindsets of immigrants. You have immigrants who come to this country, who want to work hard, who want to, uh, not only take advantage of the opportunities that are present, but contribute to the way that those things are provided and, and, and the opportunities that are created through people who are producing frankly more than they consume. I love that, I love that mindset. And, and juxtaposed with those immigrants who come to this country, who aren't really willing to produce more than they consume,

• 39:57Speaker 00

  they want to consume more than they produce, and America has generally been pretty lenient about allowing that to happen to our great detriment. So, I'm glad that you made that distinction. So, I've got a couple of questions about culturally and coming to this country, but first and foremost, what is, what is your, do you guys plan on becoming American citizens? And if so, what is your path to citizenship? Because we're, I'm pretty ignorant about this, I think most, most Americans probably are. So, what is your pathway to citizenship?

• 40:32Speaker 02

  So, excuse me, so, if you're a legal immigrant, you have to reside in the US as a permanent residence for a period of five years. At the end of the five-year period, you can apply for citizenship. Interestingly, America doesn't recognize any other citizenship other than US citizenship, but it allows you to have as many citizenships as you want. It just recognizes the US one. So, what would happen now?

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Do you think, can I, can I interrupt real quick? Do you, do you feel like?

• 41:06Speaker 00

  I'm a little bit ignorant and I'm willing to acknowledge that and be open to the idea that I'm ignorant about this, but I feel like if you are going to be an American citizen, you should denounce citizenship to every other country that you ever had citizenship to. I don't know if you agree with that, disagree with that. Again, a little bit of ignorant speaking, but that's where I'm coming from.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  So that poses some practical problems. For one, I've only got a sister who still lives in South Africa, but my wife still has her parents and her brother. So, you know, that would just really complicate the ability to just visit and keep those relationships alive that are formed who you are, you know?

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, understandable.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  I don't know a straight out dogmatic, you know, kind of decision would solve the problem. I kind of like the way the US has gone about the fact that they only recognize the US citizenship, but they allow you to have, you know, because otherwise, for us to go back as a family of six, if we renounce our South African citizenship, it's gonna become increasingly complicated because if you've been following the rhetoric lately, diplomatic relations between the US and South Africa right now are as strained as they've ever been. They are hyper strained. They're putting enormous pressure on South Africa, on the South African government to own up and be accountable for some of the stuff

• 42:32Speaker 02

  that's not right, you know? So there's conce- and they've also made visa restrictions on South Africans. There's conceivably a time when we hit the blacklist and, you know, South Africa becomes a difficult place to travel. So I don't know that outright just,

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Fair enough.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  you know, rejecting all other citizens, but I think it comes back to your point around the kind of type of person you are in the family. Like, we're here because we believe we can contribute, you know? We believe we can add value. We're attracted by the things that are good about America. I mean, there's an enormous amount about America that's questionable at the moment, you know?

• 43:14Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  I think the nation is in flux. Like, it's an interesting time, but we're convinced as a family that we have something unique to add, you know? And so if you're of that mindset, and you're in the group that you say will contribute and help affect and bring and protect ironically, like, I've played no part in the culture that is American, but I feel a strange responsibility to protect something that's never been mine, because the world needs the good that America has, you know? And that has to be protected, whether it's through US immigrants or a combination of that, you know? So it's a complicated, it's a tough one.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, no, and that's why I wanted to approach it, you know, sensitively, because obviously you're in the situation. I'm not. I don't have to worry about dual citizenship.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  I have no expectation or desire to even have dual citizenship anywhere else. So it, that's why I wanted to bring it up is because I'm very curious from a perspective of somebody who does want to contribute, like you said, and how do they feel about it? I am curious about with your children. Years ago, I moved my family, so my ex-wife and my four children across the country, from southern Utah to Maine, and it presented its fair share challenges. And we got there and I ran into an interesting phenomenon. I loved Maine. I loved the people there. They're salt of the earth. They'd give you

• 44:48Speaker 00

  the shirt off their back. They were incredible people, hardworking, industrious, hardy, very kind and caring, God fearing, God. It was just, it was good. Every experience I had with anybody out there was just good. But then I also had people that I knew who had moved there recently, and they would warn me about how people, Mainers is what they call them, don't appreciate people. The terminology used for anybody who was not born and raised in Maine, you're either a Flatlander or you're from away. Those were the two terms they used.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  And these people painted this image of Mainers not appreciating Flatlanders or those from away. And I thought to myself, I have no idea what you're talking about, because I have not experienced any of that at all. And I can't help but think it's less to do with the people and more to do with your own attitude and perspective. What are the challenges? And then what have you found in moving here that your kids have struggled with? Maybe there's some teary eyes when they come home from school? And what are the things that they think, man, I just, we really love this aspect of it?

• 46:11Speaker 02

  So, we love the freedom, you know, and that's the primary difference. This is a society that's fundamentally built on freedom, and that manifests in all kinds of ways. We've come from a society that's built on fear, and that manifests in a whole bunch of ways, you know? So the fact that I can just leave my front door unlocked, and look, I get that they're neighbors, that maybe you won't do that, but by and large, you know, this is the American story, that I can let my kid out, they can ride a bike, and I don't have to worry about them to the same degree that I did back home. You know,

• 46:52Speaker 02

  so we love the freedom. The quality of life for a kid, being able to do that, is radically and profoundly different from where we lived in South Africa. I mean culturally, look, obviously Texas for us, there were a number of reasons. My biggest network of friends was based here in Dallas, but when I came to kind of checking boxes, it had to be conservative. We're a Christian family. We love the idea of family values, and Texas is relatively conservative. It's also great for business, you know? Business is really big in the industry. Amen. It's a good place to be, you know, to be settled. And they're also entrepreneurial.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  So if I had to think about an American culture, because I've traveled all over the US, I mean, I've raced my bike down the Rocky Mountains on three occasions, from Canada to Mexico. So I've experienced remote parts of the US. But if I had to liken like a white, English-speaking South African culturally is probably most similar to Texans in that they're entrepreneurial, they're outgoing, and they're conservative. So some of the challenges for us have been, you know, the consequence of convenience, and like the education system is so different here. Small little things, like you start school in the middle of the year in August.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  My five-year-old, his school day is like an eight, last year was eight hours. I mean, what five-year-old has energy to sit in a class for eight hours?

• 48:25Speaker 00

  I'm so glad you're saying this. My kids are homeschooled, but I'm so glad you're saying this.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  He would come home, the door would open, he'd walk off the bus, and we would literally guide him into our room, he'd collapse it up and just sleep for two hours, you know? So we've held him back. We've kept him back now to repeat K. Also, he had just turned five, two weeks before school started, you know? So if you're familiar with that social behavioral dynamic that, gosh, who wrote, Malcolm Gladwell, I think, first coined that idea of, you know, the oldest kids in the class typically get the affirmation, they're more responsive, and that self-fulfilling prophecy means their growth accelerates. The youngest kids in the class tend to be shyer, they put their hands up less, they

• 49:14Speaker 02

  don't get asked to do stuff, and so they get stunted. I mean, it's a well-documented phenomenon. So.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  I mean, not to mention the way that the school system is quite frankly stacked in benefit and favor of our young ladies and stacked against our young men.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, so the other worrying thing for us, like our girls, well, last year, our one girl was in intermediate and our other girl was in, sorry, middle school and high school. Now they're both in high school. But you know, in Texas, those two campuses, the kids aren't allowed outside. So for eight hours, they don't get to see the sun. And I get that that's related to the security thing, but it's like for us, that's just like radical, you know? Like, we have to be conscious about getting them out and exposing them to the sun and vitamin D. And so the other thing that that brings on then is the inability to participate and watch some of their training sessions. So culturally, there

• 50:17Speaker 02

  are a couple of things that we've had to figure out. Also, like my wife realized early on, like boys, so Aaron, my 12-year-old, last year was 11, he brings them grade five boys, they walk in the door, they don't even greet us. And, you know, my wife very quickly got onto it and said, hey, and I don't know whether, I don't think it's just our school. I think it's got to do with this convenience thing that the kids generally are, I don't want to say disrespectful, but they're just not as mannered as, you know, kind of our sort of school environment, you know? So we've, and it's very easy for our boys to drift down because, you know, you tend to spiral towards the lowest common denominator

• 51:00Speaker 02

  socially when it comes to morals.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  I thought about this in the context of a car lot, you know, if there's a car lot, and let's say they sell, you know, vehicles that are 10 years old, under $15,000. If you put an $80,000 Tesla on the lot, the other vehicles don't increase in value, the value of the Tesla is diminished.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  And the same is true. If I have, most of my vehicles are, you know, $80,000 Teslas, but I start infusing these $15,000 junkers, that diminishes the value of the Tesla. So absolutely agree with you.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's been interesting, you know, my wife sends them back out and says, hey, knock on the door and say, hello ma'am, hello sir, so.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  I love, she does that with the kid, like the kids who come up the name, I love that, that's amazing.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  And so we've had to be really mindful with our boys, you know, technology, I mean, our 12 year old doesn't have a cellphone, he's the only kid amongst his friends that doesn't have a mobile phone, and we're like, boy, you're not getting a phone for another two years at least, you know, and he's just learned to accept that. So like, there are some things that you realize, the innovation has created convenience and convenience has a byproduct that's not necessarily good for culture and value. And as parents, we become aware of that, and we're just trying to be more mindful to not let our kids just slip down that slope, you know, I mean, our five year old already has a Texan accent, believe it or not. He sounds Texan, he's been here one year, he's now six, it's crazy. So they

• 52:45Speaker 02

  assimilate very quickly.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  That's funny.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  But I mean, it's exciting, you know, whether we'll be, as you say, Dallas is the flattest place, I've come from a life of high places, and I'm in the flattest place in the US, but it's a landing, and you know, it's my mandate as a father and husband was first get my family, transition them, let my wife dictate where we school, where we live, once I made the decision. And after a couple of years, so we're renting, and you know, maybe, maybe the Lord has a different chapter, but for now, we're where we need to be. And you know, I travel so much anyways, you can, like, I've been to Big Bend, we climbed Emery Peak, you know, we've been to, so we've, we travel, and that's the thing,

• 53:31Speaker 02

  you can live in a flat city, I spent my entire life living in Johannesburg with no mountains, but mine dumps, gold mines, and made a living out of being an extreme athlete, you know, so it's just the limitation that you embrace, or you say, hey, it's a challenge, let's figure out a way to solve it.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  When, when it comes to being an extreme athlete, is that something that you feel like was groomed into you through your parents, through your environment, through lack of a better term, or is that something you actually actively had to go out and pursue outside of your environment and upbringing?

• 54:07Speaker 02

  So neither, I didn't actively pursue becoming an extreme athlete, I inadvertently ended on this trail. But I can tell you that my parents, you know, so if you backtrack, I said I wanted to be a pilot, or I wanted to be an astronaut growing up, and I knew the only way to do that is to get into the South African Air Force, learn how to fly, some might get to America, join the US Air Force and get into NASA. And when I joined-

• 54:31Speaker 00

  Does, does South Africa have any sort of astronaut program, any, I don't even know, okay, I figured, but I don't, but I don't know, I figured, so.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  No, not at all. And we had a very good Air Force, but a strange thing happened in the early 90s, when I joined the South African Air Force. And if you remember, Nelson Mandela was released from prison in the early 90s, in 1994, we had the first democratic election. So it was a change of dispensation, the old apartheid government, the National Party, lost in the democratic election, and the first black government, the African National Congress, won. And so overnight, we went from being the pariah in Africa, and hated by all our neighbors because of apartheid, to being the poster child of the African continent.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  And the consequence of that was that we overnight lost our enemies, and so we no longer needed the advanced military that we had. And so one of the specific consequences that affected my career and destiny was that I joined the Air Force in 1991, as they were downsizing and grinding one squadron after another, flight training was suspended indefinitely. It turned out for about three, four years, there was no formal flight training. The guys who wanted to fly, they said, hey, you need to do something else. So I became a PDI, a physical training instructor, and then they allowed us to join the Air Force Flying Club and learn how to fly with Air Force instructors, but on tiny little sessioners,

• 56:03Speaker 02

  which was a lot of fun, flying around in tiny planes in a military airport, while this went on. And at the time, I realized, okay, and then, you know, two years later, my dad commits suicide, and I've lost the only voice in my life, as I'm trying to wrestle this. So I, and now when I look back, I realize, you know what, maybe my spirit wasn't geared for the life of a pilot, and I think I would have made a great astronaut. But at the time, I had been climbing anyway, and just back to what my parents installed in me, I mean, I remember many times my dad sitting me on his knee and saying to me, son, you can do whatever you want for your life, you can be anything you want. So my, my parents

• 56:47Speaker 02

  had a way of inculcating this, this culture that, hey, even though we're growing up in a poor neighborhood in Johannesburg, I can go and be an astronaut, or I can do this. And the astronaut thing never worked out, but I never lost that curiosity. And so at the time that the kind of flying dream was coming to an end, it was when I was invited on expeditions to Russia, and suddenly I was exposed to high mountains, I had a couple of very close calls and near death experiences that I was blessed to survive. And so my learning was really accelerated. And then in 1995, I got invited to join a team, the leader pulled out, I end up leader of a team going to Everest, you know, eight months

• 57:32Speaker 02

  later. That shifted my career, I resigned from sales, I had to lead these guys, figure out a way to raise money. We got back from Everest in 96, I got saved actually at 23,000 feet is where I met the Lord on the north side of Everest. But we never made it up, we were broke, unemployed, started that business. And so these decisions made out of necessity, ended me on a track that would one day mean walk into the South Pole, you know, finish in the seven summits, crossing the Arabian Desert. But I can tell you now as a kid, none of that was on my radar. I wanted to go to space, you know, so, but the Lord had other plans.

• 58:11Speaker 00

  It's, it's interesting when you talk about it, because what comes to mind is there's a book called Start with Why by Simon Sinek, and he talks about, obviously, the why, the purpose behind what you do. And he says, you know, if you have your why, you can, and I'm paraphrasing, you can find the why in just about anything that you do. And so I'm curious, I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm curious about, is the same pole that was drawing you to explore space, the same pole that's drawing you to explore the highest mountains in the world, and the Arabian Desert, and doing a 700 mile endurance event across the continent, like, is that, is it the same pole that's drawing you to this now?

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Yes, it's exactly the same synapse that misfires in my motor neurons, you know, it's this curiosity, and I'll, and I'll say it's even an obsession to try and understand how God has made me. I've always been curious. And so that curiosity has manifested in potential, and so everything I do now is around potential, you know, my, my kind of tagline is, I believe I'm put on this earth by God to shift the way you react to the instant you hear the word impossible. That's why I'm here. I have insight into our potential and ways through my experiences to, to turn really hard things into kind of manageable

• 59:37Speaker 02

  plans. But I'm still curious, I still, you know, I, I think I mentioned, I still try and do a ultra endurance bike race once a year. The high peaks, obviously, less and less, and I'm not gonna go to a peak like K2, you know, that is now out of my, my timeline. But I'm still curious about my genetic potential, and so I still find a way to express that in ultra racing, because obviously, age, in ultra racing, power and absolute speed aren't as important as experience, you know, there's a, look, I mean, I'm in my mid 50s, so there's no question, I'm not the, the, the guy I was 20 years ago, but the experience I have. And every time you're on a race like that, where you're just at your end, you're,

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  you're unpacking a little bit more. Here's the thing, I can't go to the New York Times Bestseller and find a blueprint on me, this is how God made me. That doesn't exist. The blueprint is out there, it's our life, and it's the degree to which we push ourselves, and how curious are we how we be made? And it, it puzzles me that people generally aren't curious what their potential is, like, aren't you curious how the Creator of the universe made you, what you can and cannot do? And for me, that's been my single obsession. And you know, I don't think we fully answer that question in our lives, you know, I think, but I think that's what our lives are about, because as we unpack that, we, we demonstrate

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  to people around us, hey, this ordinary guy actually did something really crazy. Why? Because one of his belief system, his intention, his discipline, I mean, there's a whole lot of reasons how stuff manifests, but the starting point, I think, is, is genuine and honest curiosity.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  Do you feel like you have, this might be a little bit of a leading question, but do you feel like you have a different relationship with fear, and, and than the, than the typical man, let's say? I, I ask that because it seems to me like the people that I've had on this podcast over the past 11 years have a very similar attitude to you, and, and I've always just called it the let's find out mentality, you know, it's like, I have this dream, or I have this vision, I have this idea, and the more practical people, or even my more practical nature at times, will say, well, you know, what if you fail, what if it doesn't work out, what if this, what if that? And my attitude has always been, yeah,

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  I might, but let, like, let's find out, let's find out. I'm more afraid of not trying it than I am of trying it and falling short. Do you feel like you have that same attitude? And how would you describe that if so?

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  I think it, it comes down to an acceptance of potentially failing.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  And that's okay, you know, in a very simple example, I, I was at a conference last week in Charlotte, North Carolina. The conference was at the National Whitewater Center, which is this amazing facility that they've built. It's a manmade facility where you can go rafting. So for the two hours around lunch, they asked who wants to go rafting, you know?

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  And it's indoor? What is it? It's indoors?

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  No, it's an outdoor facility. I mean, it's the most amazing thing. You should go and check it out. So it's where the US paddlers train and the rafters train, but it's, it is a massive facility. Obviously, we were in a conference room, but my, my instinct initially is to be fearful, like, oh, my gosh, what if something happens? Do I have this? Do I have that? But I, I, I ticked the box because I've tried to create a culture where, hey, it's okay to fail, you know? And so that culture becomes a lifestyle when you're consistently ticking boxes that are scary for whatever reason. Now, I'm not saying just go and do like, you know, harebrained adrenaline junkie stunts. I probably won't go and throw myself off a bungee cord, you know, over some big canyon. I might have thirty years ago, but not anymore. But I'm saying, don't be afraid to fail.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  And I think the, you know, like the reality is, business has been slow the last year. And I'm thinking, there's a big barrier to moving to one of the most expensive countries in the world from one of the poorest countries in the world with a family of six. But at the end of the day, even if I fail, God's got this. Like, the backstop is immovable. And so if the backstop, if the foundation is immovable, then it's okay to fail. But I think most of us fear failure because we don't have that immovable grounding. And so when we unpack in our mind what failure looks like, our nature takes us down such a horrible path. But does it ever come to that?

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Do you know that almost all research now says that ninety percent of the stuff we worry about never comes to pass? And the ten percent of the stuff that does come to pass, the majority of that stuff isn't nearly as bad as we initially thought it was gonna be.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  It's manageable.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. So our, our nature, the world, the pattern is just to worry and be fearful about it. And I think if you can figure out a way to, and that comes down to failure, that it's okay to fail because, hey, something bigger than me has got this covered, you know? It's got it, it's got it sorted. And for me, that's my faith. But even if you fail, like, what's the worst that can happen? You know, you're not gonna die. Your family's not gonna end up...

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, you could, I was gonna say, you could die because based on what you're doing, you actually could die, so.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Well, I knew I couldn't die in the whitewater. And as hard as the, the guy tried to tip our raft, you know, the, the other seven of us who were trying as hard as not to get tipped. But you assess things and, and the reality is like, even if it's, you know, putting your hand up in a conference when someone says, who can sing? And, you know, actually, you, you can't sing well, but you can still sing, you know? All of those kind of things, they, they either create the culture where you're fearful of failing and you don't put your hand up, or it's okay to fail. And that's the message. It's okay to fail. Like, when I look back, I don't have regrets about the stuff I, I did. I have regrets about the opportunities I had. Oof, you know what? I really should have taken that risk.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  Because now with hindsight, that wasn't nearly as risky as I thought it would be, you know? Like, we just don't, as a species, do as many things as we know we should when we get to the latter part of our lives, you know? Because when we're young, we don't have the benefit of hindsight and, and, yeah, so I'd say, I'd say that's the key. My, my mindset is probably similar to those folk, and it's just that, hey, it's okay to fail, so just, you know, take more risk, emotional, social, business risk. What's the worst that can happen, you know?

• 1:06:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like that. I like that attitude. It's, um, it's interesting. I spend a lot of time in, in the mountains, especially in the fall, and just in the woods and things, hunting. And it's so fascinating to watch a deer graze on grass twenty yards below you while you're sitting in a tree stand or trying to spot and stalk to an elk that, you know, you saw three hundred yards away.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:58Speaker 00

  Um, just this weekend, I was in Zion National Park, and I've never seen this before. I was so fortunate to be able to see this. I'm riding an e-bike up the canyon, and there's, you know, seven or eight bighorn sheep just twenty yards up the cliff, like, just watching them. Amazing, so amazing. Uh, all of those animals operate on instinct. They don't, they don't make conscious decisions. They just, they're instinctual. And we were riding the e-bikes down, and it was a little bit dark, it was kind of dusk, and one of these bighorn sheep runs right in front of us. That, that bighorn sheep did not consciously make the decision to run in front of, it was afraid, it was just trying to get away, it was instinctual.

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

  We are not like that. We, we, as humans, we can make conscious decisions. Now, some of what we do is just subconscious, it's instinctual. But we also have the power to override that and make conscious decisions. And I, and I can't help but think when I look at it that way, what a waste if we can't use the incredible blessing of consciousness to make choices that another species can't make, that can push us and our families into an incredible place, or create opportunities for new people that would not have had those opportunities otherwise. And it seems to me, and I do this too, that so many of us are just sitting on, to your point earlier, potential that is just untapped.

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I mean, that's the key thing. You, you hit it on the head there, the power of choice. Like, I think we underestimate how powerful, uh, and what a privilege it is that our species has that, you know? Like, daily, we get to choose, like, how you react, where you go, what you do, what you don't do, you know? It's crazy. We just, we kind of forget it, and it's probably the single most important thing that separates us from everything else.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Well, I, I was gonna ask you about some of the treks that you've been on, obviously, Everest several times, I think you had, well, you had told me, other, uh, other peaks in the highest continents in the world, um, the Arabian Desert, South Pole. Is, is there a difference in your mind from taking a path that's already been traveled? Let's say Everest. You know, I, I, I don't know, I'm a layman, so I, I imagine that there's several different paths people take, and it's like, that's the path you take. And then there's other treks that you probably participate on, South Pole, maybe, for example? I think of, you know, Ernest Shackleton's adventure to the South Pole, and it's, you're the first person to ever walk on that ice, or you're the first person to ever step on

• 1:09:42Speaker 00

  that sta- sand, or, or, or stumble over that rock. Is there a difference in your mind between taking a path that's already been traveled and exploring a path that's never been charted before?

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Uh, I mean, obviously, there's the practical implication, like, when we, you know, so we weren't the first South Africans to climb Everest or the Seven Summits, I think I was the third. We were the first Africans to walk to the South Pole, but certainly other people had walked to the South Pole.

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  But we were the first people ever to, to cross the Arabian Desert unsupported on foot, you know? And so with that came a whole world of trying to, one, solve the problem, can it be done? And answer that, and, and believe personally that this can be done unsupported. And so that in itself brings a whole Pandora's box and a rabbit hole of curiosities, and how do you solve the problem? How do you design a cart? What does the cart look like? How much can it carry? All of that. But then also just knowing that, uh, you know, you, and I, and I remember clearly turning corners in the sand dunes and, and standing there. We hadn't seen someone for three weeks, thinking, we might be the first people to ever, I mean, I'll share a very specific example. It was just three of us.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  And in the process of planning, so we walked about six hundred miles, and it took us forty days pulling this little cart. And in the planning process, we, we used Google to map out, so Google Maps, to map out a whole set of A3 photographs of the sand dunes that we threaded a line first in the safety of our home. And then for forty days, we stood each morning, because the GPS doesn't help you going in a straight line, you've got a four hundred foot sand dune, how are you gonna get a thousand pound cart over that sand dune? You can't. Well, how do I know if I got...

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  And it could change tomorrow, it could be, that, that sand dune could be right over there, I imagine, not right there.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it, every day was different. So, so we had a theoretical thread, a needle of threading these sort of sand dunes, but then on a day-to-day basis, we actually stood with each one and we looked, okay, this is where we are. We're supposed to go on our planning, left around that sand dune, it looks good, let's go, you know? But there was one particular day on around, I don't know, maybe day thirty, I had noticed on the maps a day or two before, that about a quarter of a mile off the track, so at that point, we were following a military track right up against the Saudi Arabian border, we were in Oman. I noticed about a quarter of the mile off the, off the track, there was a sand dune

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  that had the most perfect conical shape and an island in the middle of it that looked like a volcano. And I said to the guys, guys, I'd love to go and see this. Now, remember, we're pulling a thousand pound cart. There ain't no appetite for let's go on a spare time activity, this entire thing...

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  We're not taking the scenic route here.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  There's no scenic route. So I took a lot of convincing, you know? And on the morning, we stopped and I said, okay, guys, that's it there. It's literally like a quarter of a mile, it might take us fifteen, twenty minutes to get there. So they said, okay, let's take an hour out, it was the middle of the day.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  We walk, we untie from the carts. Now we get to the sandgin. The sandgin was a little bit higher than we thought. So, you know, we laboring up the sandgin and I'm thinking, what have I got these guys into? Like, we, I mean, we, we're exhausted, you know? Like, we, we, we just, we just made it, the whole thing. So anyway, we finally get to the top of this and now we're sitting and we sat down and we had about a half an hour, 40 minute break. And I was looking down at this perfectly conical sandgin that I spotted and there at the bottom was like a perfect flat pan. There's no doubt in my mind, no other human being had ever been stupid enough to go there or had the opportunity. So the fact that we were sitting there, the only people to look at this and do this, and probably will be for the next 50 years,

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  was a special moment, you know? And it's hard to explain, but it's kind of like, you think about God creating this entire universe, but there are still moments set apart in time and space uniquely for our interaction. I can share another example that maybe gives some light. You know, I used to do a lot of cave exploration and there was a cave about three hours from Johannesburg that we'd, we'd been back to many times to survey. And it's a technical cave, a lot of time you're on the ground and we'd been underground for about 15 hours. And I was on point at the time, which means you're the guy who goes and goes into a passage and sees if it goes anywhere.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  If it goes anywhere, you go and then you tell the next two, who have a chronometer and a compass and a sketchbook to follow and they make some notes. And then all of that data gets put into a, a, a program and it prints out a survey. Anyway, so I'm, we're lying in this chamber, excuse me, and we're having a rest and we're about to head out now. And they asked me, does that little funny thing go? And I'm like, ah, it doesn't look like it, but let me go check. So I bend down. Now, I'm like pedantic, super thorough about these kinds of things. And I kind of see a small space and I think, you know what? Let me just make sure and I push and I push and I end up in what we would later call the thrash compactor, about 50, 60 yards of leopard crawl, where the cavity is so tight, I can't fully expand my chest.

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  So I've got sort of 80% exhales before I'm stuck. But I get to the end of this and I know I can't turn around now. So these guys are going to have to pull me out if I don't end up. But I can hear them moaning and cussing behind me because they're following with a chronometer and a sketchbook in the same tiny place. They were a little bit thinner than me. And I get to the end of this thing and I've got a chamber about the size of a small table. And in front of me is a, a rock wall with a hole about that size. I had an old cap lamp, you know, the mining lamps with a hard battery. And I can look through it and I see it opens up and I, and I take my cap lamp off. And I've only got about an inch of, two inches of leverage. And it takes me about five minutes to bang this hole open.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  And I get it open and I crawl inside and it's a smaller chamber and I'm, you know, sort of crouching. But then I see to my left another hole. And I go over there and I widen that and I end up falling into a big chamber with all these rimstone pools and white formations. But in that moment, it occurred to me, as I popped through there and my light shone on that, that thing had been created, that room, that chamber had been created in the dawn of time. And God knew that it would stay dormant, asleep, until my light would shine on it for the first time in the history of creation. And it just blew my mind. I mean, it's a tiny, random cave that no one will ever probably see.

• 1:16:39Speaker 02

  But the knowledge that I got to see that for the first time blew me away, you know? And, and I think that's, that's how God's made this world. You know, the Romans 120 talks about God's invisible powers being evident in creation since the beginning. And I think there are moments where you will see a deer in a specific, you know, if hunting is your thing, where you know, like that moment has been set apart. All you had to do was put up your hand and say, God, I'm curious. I want to go into your world and explore, you know? And, and I'm still blown away. So yes, to your question about the untrodden path, 100%. We need to take untrodden paths because I think God hides things that are uniquely for us to discover, even if it's just

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  seeing the sun shine on a forest in, you know, in a particular way.

• 1:17:30Speaker 00

  I agree. I call it being in a Bob Ross painting. Like, I'll, I'll sit in a tree stand and overlook just things that most people would ordinarily, most of the time I would overlook it. And, but I don't have my phone, you know, char, I'm not on a podcast, I don't have technology. And I'm just sitting in there, sitting there and there's, you know, 10 deer just grazing, right? They don't even know I'm there. I think it's, I don't know what it, I think it's hilarious. I think it's funny. I think it's amazing. There's this deer and I'm sitting in this stand 20 yards above them and they don't know I'm there. And it's, it's amazing.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  One thing that stood out about your story, and I'm, I'm actually really touched and inspired by what you shared right there. And, and just like deeply afraid. You were giving me anxiety, just describing 80% lung capacity or whatever, crawling through this thing. But one thing that stands out to me is that when you said, you know, that was reserved for you.

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  I, I don't know that, I mean, yes, I, I understand what you're saying, reserved for you. But I think more broadly, reserved for the individual who's willing to take some risks and reserved for the individual who's willing to go explore and put themselves in that situation and that environment. And, and, and partially create that, you know? I, I get so tight, I know you're very faithful and, and spiritual and, and have a relationship with God. And I know a lot of people who are, but I also hear them say, oh, you know, if it's God's will. And I, and I can't help but think in those moments, of course it's God's will that you go pursue. So of course it's God's will that you see new things that are available to you.

• 1:19:14Speaker 00

  Of course it's God's will that you go explore, living in the United, of course it is. And I can't help but wonder if he's just sitting up there, wherever he is, looking at us and saying, yes, like I've given you everything you need. Now it's your turn to actually do something and stop blaming it on me because you're too afraid to go pursue what I've made available for you.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I think, you know, uh, the word go is, is right up in God's vocabulary. I, I don't think the word stay is used nearly as much, you know? And, and I think that's our mandate, go, like go. Wherever it is, just go, do, explore. That's, that's how we, we enter into community. It's how we learn, it's how we, we fail, how we gain wisdom. How, how we do anything is by, is by going, you know? And, um, yeah, it is interesting how like as a culture, I mean, I, I take the US as an example. You know, you guys are so blessed with natural heritage that historically Americans have been very reticent to travel overseas.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  And I get it, like, you've got, every state you pick, you've got like the most unbelievable natural heritage.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, and something different, right?

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  Totally different, you know? But the, the downside to that is that I still meet Americans that have never been out of their state. You know, I remember my one tour of Idris, I ended up, I crashed in the snow. I ended up in a hospital in Butte, Montana, a tiny mining town. And I was stuck there for a week. I had really bad edema on my legs. So I wasn't allowed to fly for a week until my, my legs had come down. And the, the tending nurse that was looking after me, like, we had a conversation. She'd never been to the sea, like it had never, the idea of wanting to see the sea, like it just had never occurred to me. And I was like, like, I couldn't understand that, you know, like, like I, I just,

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  and I, and I know some people are made like that, but I, I don't know how you can never be curious. Because as a young kid, I wanted to know what was over my wall. And once I got onto the wall and I could see to the end of the road, I wanted to know what was around that neighborhood and over that hill, you know? That's just how I've always been. And I think, like, if you're not naturally curious, look, I also think all kids are curious, you know? I think we as parents stifle their curiosity by our well-intending manner of keeping them alive. Hey, don't go too close to the fire, you know, you're going to get burned. Hey, watch out for the car. Hey, watch out for the wall, you know? It's, it's just in our nature and it's a good thing as parents. That's how we keep our kids alive.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  But if you don't compensate with sharing risky experiences, all you do is you stifle their curiosity. And you must see the stats between the number of kindergarten kids that ask questions and 5th graders relative to 9, 10, 12th graders. And it's not that the 12th graders know more or know enough. They're no longer as curious. We lose our curiosity, society kills our curiosity. And so it's a rare thing to encounter an adult now that's still curious, you know? And that's kind of part of what I do is I help people get curious again, because I believe God makes us curious. I believe we all start out as curious kids, you know?

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  Why do we lose that curiosity and how do we find it again? And, and I think you'll find it's small little tipping points that get people curious about stuff, you know? It doesn't have to be big, you don't have to go and climb Everest to, to rouse your curiosity. Just watch the nature channel, you know? Get in the car and drive across the state border to the first little town. See, see what it's like, you know? Go into the woods.

• 1:23:04Speaker 00

  I love it. Well, Alex, I appreciate the conversation. I'm inspired by you. Yeah, some of your stories and some of the things that you've told me about. And I'm sure some of the stories you didn't share are just incredible. Tell us where to connect with you, learn more about what you're doing. And for those of us who are curious, you know, we, we, we want to be able to look at opportunities that might help us explore that a little bit. So how do we do that with you?

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  Well, so go to my website, explorealexharris.com. You can pop me a mail, [email protected]. You know, on there you'll, you'll learn about some of the stuff we do, some of the, the tours, uh, some of the speaking stuff, you know, a couple of my books, but yeah, explore alexharris.com. Uh, but you know, the, the starting point for anyone is just, hey, I remember 30 years ago, sitting in Germany, I was living there for six months. We wanted to climb Africa's, uh, South America's ice mountain. This is before the internet's invented, it's 1992. And, uh, I can't go into Google, uh, you know, we, we had to walk down to a library, pull out an atlas,

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  flip through, what's the highest mountain in South America? It's in Argentina. Oh, it's at Concaiga. Oh, it's almost 23,000 feet. Hey, you can just open up Claude, you can just open up Google now and just, you know, type in, what's one interesting thing in my neighborhood or in my town? I mean, we, we, we have no excuse not to be curious anymore.

• 1:24:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love it. Every once in a while, my son, if we're driving, my youngest son and I, if we're driving somewhere, as kids do, you're talking about them being curious, he'd be like, Dad, why is, why is the sky blue? I'm like, I don't know, let's ask, let's ask Claude. And Claude's like, well, it's the light fragments and what's being extracted in the prism of light. And he's like, well, why is the water blue? I'm like, let's figure it out. And he's like, what about a black hole? What's, why is fire orange? And it's awesome. It's so cool that we have all of the answers at our fingertips. And then what's even better is, you know, you figure out why it's black at night instead of blue. And then you can pull up an app and sit out in your lawn

• 1:25:18Speaker 00

  with a map on an app on your phone that points out the constellations as you actively look at it and tell you how many light years away those flaming balls of gas are. And it's, it's such a cool way to like have a cool experience with your kids. And also tap into this beautiful technology that we have, use properly. It's incredible. Well, Alex, I appreciate you. Um, also just want to give a shout out to Corey, a mutual friend of ours who introduced us. I'm very grateful to Corey for making this introduction because we would not have had this conversation otherwise. So I want to give him a shout out and Alex, thanks for joining me. I appreciate you.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  It's an absolute pleasure. It was a great honor. Thank you so much.

• 1:26:02Speaker 00

  All right, man. Mr. Alex Harris, what, what an incredible human being. I would say I'd like to go out with him, but I'm not sure that I would, but maybe that's the challenge. Go out with a guy like this and let him push and challenge and teach you new things and push you to your limit and past your current limit. But man, we need people like this in our lives. So I was really grateful that Corey introduced us and really grateful that, um, he decided to join us and be on this conversation, this podcast. So if you would, please go over to Alex's Instagram page, connect with him, go to explorealexharris.com, check out what he's doing there. Also, just take a screenshot really quickly. A lot of you guys have been doing this and I very much appreciate it.

• 1:26:45Speaker 00

  Screenshot on your phone, jump into Facebook, jump into Instagram, post it up in a reel or a story, tag myself, at Ryan Mickler, tag Alex Harris and let other guys know what you're listening to. I just, I just feel like as a man, if you have something to share, if you have something of value, then the best thing that you can do is share it with people who might be greatly impacted by the resources that you have. And hopefully this is one of them. Also make, make sure to check out, speaking of resources, the Iron Council over at orderofman.com/ironcouncil. Let's help you map out Q4. That's where we're at right now. Uh, we're going to help you map out Q4 and, uh, get that thing lined out for you.

• 1:27:28Speaker 00

  So you can have the best quarter ever and then the best year in 2027 ever. Check that out at orderofman.com/ironcouncil. All right, guys. Got a good one with Kip tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything. Make sure you subscribe, make sure you share, make sure you listen, and most importantly, make sure you apply. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man Podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.