BRETT BARTHOLEMEW | The Flawed Leader Advantage... And How to Make it Work for You

Most of what passes for leadership advice today is polish. You say the right things, avoid conflict, perform confidence until you believe it yourself. This episode is about the opposite. We're talking about what happens when you stop performing and start operating: how to build relationships that are actually real instead of transactional, how to handle conflict without flinching or blowing it up, and why the most effective leaders aren't the cleanest; they're the ones willing to own their flaws and use them. We get into the idea of the "antihero." He's not a villain, not a saint, but someone pragmatic enough to do what the moment requires instead of what looks good on camera. We talk about credibility versus performative influence, why so much content today is loud but hollow, and how the stories we tell ourselves (culturally and individually), shape whether we actually grow or just look like we are. If you're tired of leadership advice that sounds good and does nothing, this one's for you. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - The Power of Real Relationships 05:44 - Why Transactional Relationships Destroy Trust 07:16 - How to Handle Conflict Like an Adult 10:50 - There Is No Magical Phrase for Communication 12:45 - The Problem With Contrarian Content 16:55 - The Anti-Hero Advantage 21:41 - Why "Regular Guys" Don't Always Get Heard 25:26 - Pragmatism, Influence and Social Capital 28:50 - Understanding Your Conflict Archetype 33:30 - Integrating Your Dark Side 39:14 - Do the Ends Justify the Means? 44:05 - Why You Don't Have to Be Liked 46:17 - Dealing With Internal and External Conflict 50:17 - Why Culture Has Replaced Self-Development 53:55 - The Truth Just Isn't Sexy 55:53 - The Five Skills Everyone Needs 59:35 - The Value of Admitting Your Own Ignorance 01:03:00 - Learning to Challenge Your Own Ideas 01:04:00 - When Communication Goes Wrong and What to Learn From It Order Ryan's latest book, The Masculinity Manifesto on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316 Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready. https://orderofman.link/battle-ready Download the NEW Order of Man Twelve-Week Battle Planner and maximize your week. https://orderofman.link/12-week-planner-app Support the Order of Man mission by picking up merchandise: https://orderofman.link/support-the-mission Connect with us on the socials: Instagram https://orderofman.link/instagram Facebook https://orderofman.link/facebook-page Twitter https://orderofman.link/twitter-ryan Join the Order of Man Facebook group: https://orderofman.link/facebook-group

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Guys, most of what passes for leadership today is just polishing a turd, for lack of a better term. You know, you say the right things, you avoid conflict, you perform confidence until you believe it in yourself. And it might not be just you, it might be other leaders that you are required to follow. But this episode is the opposite. It's antithetical to that. We're going to be talking about what happens when you actually stop performing and start operating, start actually doing the work, you know, how to build relationships that are real instead of simply transactional, how to handle conflict without flinching

• 0:45Speaker 00

  or blowing it up. And why the most effective leaders aren't necessarily the cleanest. They're the ones willing to own their flaws and use them for the betterment of themselves and other people. We get into the idea of this anti-hero concept, and it's not that he's a villain, but he's also not a saint, someone who's pragmatic enough to do what those moments of hardship require instead of what simply looks good on camera. We're also going to be talking about credibility versus what Brett, my guest today, calls performative

• 1:24Speaker 00

  influence, and why so much content today is loud but hollow. I would even say obnoxious but hollow. And we're also going to talk about the stories we tell ourselves culturally, individually, and how they shape whether we actually grow or just look like we're growing. So if you're tired of leadership advice that sounds good, but ultimately does nothing, and you're in the same place as a leader that you've always been, you need to listen to this podcast.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, and strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm your host and founder. Glad you're tuning in. Good one on leadership. I've been a friend of this guys for a very long time. And I just like having real conversations that aren't performative, that aren't manipulative, that aren't the rah rah, or the polished turd, as I said earlier, that you see when it comes to leadership. This one is really deep, really meaningful, and very impactful, if you actually apply what Brett and I talk about today. Now, before I get to the conversation, just want to mention my friends over at Montana Knife Company.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  We are getting into hunting season. It's September 16th, no, 15th, as of the release of this podcast. That means we're in elk season. That means we're coming to mule deer and whitetail season. That means a lot of you guys are hunting, or maybe even some of you want to learn how to hunt. And if that's true, one thing you need is a very good knife. And if you don't have a very good knife, then you aren't going to get the job done as effectively as you would. And I would suggest that you look no further than Montana Knife Company. The founder and a good friend of mine, the owner of Montana Knife Company, Josh Smith, just shot an incredible bull elk, I think, I don't want to say where

• 3:41Speaker 00

  he was. I don't know where he was, but an incredible bull elk, and used his Montana knife, which is their, not their fixed blade, but their foldable, to break down the deer, to butcher some of the meat. And I'm telling you guys, these knives are absolutely incredible. So if you're looking for a good knife in the field, or if you're in the kitchen, or an everyday carry, look no further than Montana Knife Company, and use the code ORDEROFMAN, all one word, ORDEROFMAN, at checkout to save some money when you do. All right, guys,

• 4:19Speaker 00

  let me introduce you to Brett. He is a bestselling author. He is a communication strategist and founder of an organization called The Art of Coaching, which is really a consulting company based on performance. They work with leaders across professional and Olympic sports, the military, healthcare, tech, Fortune 500 organizations, and with more than 20 years of experience inside these very high-risk, high-profit, high-performance events and experience environments, Brett has built his career helping people navigate dynamics,

• 5:04Speaker 00

  manage difficult people to deal with, and lead through change, not with theory, but with strategies that that actually stand the test of time with real pressure. His doctoral research focuses on strategic communication inside, again, these organizations, they're very complex, and also very high-stake situations. He's the author of Conscious Coaching, The Art and Science of Building Buy-In. And in his brand new book, it's called The Anti-Hero Advantage, he throws out this one-size-fits-all leadership playbook that you've always heard about, in favor of something more genuine, more honest. And that is that you become

• 5:46Speaker 00

  a more effective leader by learning to channel your instincts, and your doubts, and your failures, and even your darker impulses with awareness and discipline. But you don't do that by suppressing them, you do that by leaning into them. So with that said, guys, enjoy the conversation today.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Brett, what's up, brother? So good to see you. I'm glad that you reached out a week or so ago, because it's been a long time, and we needed to make this happen again.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it has been. I mean, I'm a old-school Midwesterner, so it's always kind of just in me. I like staying in touch. I think that's somehow gotten outdated today. But a friend of mine had actually listened to an episode of your podcast. He's like, do you know this guy? I'm like, I do. And I haven't talked to this dude in a long time. So I appreciate the fact that, you know, you're still not too big time to answer the call.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I'm getting there. You know, I'm getting there. Give me a month or two, and I might be. No, I wouldn't have, man. I'm the same way. It's the ability to follow up with people, to connect with people, to build relationships. I was actually just talking with a friend of mine who happens to be our store manager. His name is Jay Dardulo, a good friend of mine, been a friend of mine for years. And we were talking about some store order issues that we have. And I know he's big into the strength and conditioning community. He does a lot of work with Zach Evenish, who I know you know, and the Sorenex crew. And I was like, hey, I'm talking with Brett Bartholomew. Do you know him? He's like, yeah, of course. He's like, well, I don't know him. I know of him. So it's cool to be able to have the connections that we do. And it's the power of networking, frankly.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  For sure. Yeah, I mean, and doing it, I would like to think the right way. I think today, people have so many transactional relationships. And, you know, something I talked to even my six-year-old son about, it's just like, buddy, you're going to have friends, and you have people you know. And they're not always the same. And they're not, you know, certain people that you think are going to follow through on things. And to have your back aren't always, because he's kind of getting to that age where he has, you know, that disappointment. And I think that it's really important more than ever. And a lot of research backs this up. I mean, you're seeing it impact all-cause mortality. What happens when people don't actually forge deep, meaningful relationships? I mean, obviously, I'm biased. My background is communication and psychology. But, and you can sniff it out. I mean, don't you think? Can't you sniff out people like, that just

• 8:07Speaker 02

  kind of network for bullshit reasons? And it's, oh, hey, brother. And it's like, dude, I haven't heard from you in like, you know, forever. And I'm probably not going to hear from you until the next time you need something.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Well, I had, I had a situation years ago, where frankly, I can't even remember who it was, but he reached out to me, sent me a text or a message. And he's like, hey, Matt, like, hey, brother, it's been a long time, the same thing you're talking about. And, and I was really excited to hear from him. Like, oh, cool. Like, I haven't heard from this guy for a long time. I'd love to connect with him again. And he's like, let's go to lunch. I'm like, yeah, that sounds good. Where do you want to go? And I think we went, if I remember right, we went to the local buffet. We did. I think we went to a place called Chuckarama. And so we went to this local buffet. I'm like, yeah, that sounds good, whatever. And I get there, and there's another guy with him who's slick.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  You know who I'm talking about. He's got the suit on, he's got the greasy hair, he's slick. And immediately, I was like, I know what this is.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  I'm out.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  I know what this is. I'm being ambushed. So I went and sat down, I shook his hand. I said, hey, what's going on? He's like, hey, this is my trainer for Primerica, or whatever. And I looked at the guy, and I'm like, bro, are you serious? And he's like, what do you mean? I said, you're lying to me. I said, I came to connect with you and catch up. You didn't tell me you were going to bring your trainer to talk to me about your opportunity to join your downstream and your multi-level marketing thing, which, by the way, I don't think is horrible, but don't fucking lie to me about it.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  And I said, hey, like, I'm out. You guys enjoy lunch together. And when you want to catch up for real, feel free to reach out to me. I left. I didn't have lunch with him. Because I hate that stuff, man. I hate it.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and I think too, and you can always feel, I mean, I know you will, feel free to disagree. I call it performative affiliation, because now every relationship is content. And you'll see it, you'll see people that, you know, they like and support this, or they do that, or they do this. But they're not like real people at the end of the day that are actually in it for a real reason. And like, and a lot of it is status signaling. And so I think the danger of that becomes, because somebody goes, well, what's the big deal at the end of the day? You know, everybody kind of stuff is going to be transactional to some point. I'm like, yeah, to some point. But the big deal is, is the words we use, like, actually matter. And if every dinner you go out to is, oh, the most epic dinner

• 10:38Speaker 02

  ever, with the best person ever, and such a great guy, then like, they lose that meaning. To be like, you come over to my house, if all of a sudden, like, you're saying that shit, it's like, dude, you said that to like, the last five people. Are you going to post about this too? And I know it sounds curmudgeonly, but I just think that the more quote unquote connected we get with all this other stuff, the less people understand how to build foundational relationships. And I don't know that there's anything ultimately more important. So a lot of performative affiliation. What'd the guy say when you left? Did he ever text you back?

• 11:11Speaker 00

  No, never heard from him again. Cause I would be embarrassed too if I were him. I would have taken, by the way, I want to be really clear. I would have fielded his phone call. If he called me back or texted me and said, Hey man, I'm sorry. That wasn't cool. Like I, yeah, it was a little sneaky. I would have fielded his phone call. I'm like, let's go to lunch for real. I would have definitely done that. But no, I never heard back from him. I, I think when you say something like, well, what's the problem? You didn't say that, but you're, you're kind of communicating that other people might say, oh, it's the big deal. Well, the big deal is that nobody believes each other.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Right. That's what I mean.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  That's the big deal. Right? If, if I can't believe that you actually like me, or that you actually have my best interest at heart. But there's a couple of things that come to mind. Number one is we, you can have a little bit of self-serving interest. I actually don't think that's the problem. No, you, you can have your own desires and, and wishes and, and hope and optimism for relationship. I mean, imagine a romantic relationship where all you ever did was pour into the other person without any level of reciprocity. It, it just wouldn't last. No. But what we're, what we should be looking for is alignment in our desires. And as soon as alignment happens, it's like, cool. We can talk about

• 12:30Speaker 00

  whatever, whenever, however, and we can be self-interested, but it also serves the other person as opposed to this zero sum game, this transactional thing that you're talking about.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  No doubt. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's interesting too. Like you see where our values start getting off when I got a close friend that I talked to weekly, and he said he never liked anything I post. And I go, buddy, we talk weekly. I, I get on social media. I post my stuff. You know, I check what I need to check for business and I'm usually off. Like my social media, I don't know about yours. Like I don't use it as a, it's part of my business. It's part of who I am. I'll post things that me and my son do together. It's, it's me as a real person. And I just kind of asked him though, you realize we have this world where people feel mad or not supported if you're not constantly engaging with their stuff, as if it's top of your mind to go check all your friends' stuff every day. And I said, listen, you can have it one of two ways, brother. I can actually call you and

• 13:26Speaker 02

  be a friend in the real world, or you can get mad that I didn't like some posts that I didn't even see that should not bear at all on our friendship, you know, but like what we're talking about here is having just real conversations. And I think that that's a lost art too. If people have a problem with something, they always feel we, like a lot of my newest book is about how to deal with conflict and not like Karen from HR feels offended. So what should you do? But imagine you and I had a tiff and I, I give a shit about you. It's not that hard to be like, Hey Ryan, I care a great deal about you. I feel like something's off. It might just be me. I'll say that out in front, but could we talk about it? Cause I ultimately would like to feel like we're good. If there's

• 14:09Speaker 02

  anything I can do to show up better, let me know. But like, that doesn't need to turn into a big deal. But people make it a much bigger deal than they do. Cause our country and the world largely doesn't know how to metabolize conflict.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think it requires a little bit of just discernment and not just being agitated about everything. And I also think, here's where I think we get stuck, is it requires something from both parties. So if I, again, we get into a little tiff, maybe we're frustrated with each other about something, who knows? And I say something to you that I'm frustrated about, but maybe, maybe I lack some tact, you know, maybe I come across too aggressive or too harsh or too gone descending or too opinionated, or I, I resort to ad hominem attacks or whatever. Number one, as the person communicating the problem, me in this case,

• 15:02Speaker 00

  I, I should exercise some tact. And also both have to exist. You should exercise some thick skin. Like, hey, this doesn't sound like Ryan. Hey, like what, like this isn't indicative of our general and broad description of our relationship. So like, what's going on? And I think both things need to exist, which makes it that much harder to actually have a real conversation with people.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  No doubt. And well, and this is kind of why I always got frustrated in my career is, and, and I'm trying to think about how to put this. It's interesting, ever since I transitioned more into this space after my first book and leadership development and conflict resolution, I laugh whenever I see like some of these podcasts or social media thing acting as if there's something to say, like a perfect thing to say. So here's what to say if somebody attacks you, or here's what to say if you want to be more persuasive, as if there's a script. Now think about what you just said, right? You can care a great deal and things still might not come across the right way because of any number of things. The medium, emotions, environment, timing, no, no.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Having a bad day. Right. Like it could be anything.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Right. No message exists out of, out of its own context. And so whenever people think that there's, well, what do I say? I go, there's not one thing to say. What there is, is you have to think about the greater context and then get out in front of it. And then just remember like, misunderstanding is the baseline. You can't read my mind. I can't read your mind. So it's actually, you know, fucking miracle if we don't disagree and pardon my language, you know, like, but that's the point of it is, the point of a discussion and dialogue is to do that dancing, keep the ball in play so we can find middle ground. There's not a magical phrase, but our one size fits all society likes to think that there is.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's interesting. I like the concept of keeping the ball in play, but I also like this concept of, you know, not everything is outrageous and not everything is actually even worth talking about. I, I saw a video on Instagram the other day. It was a, it was a conversation that Chris Williamson was having with one of his guests. He's the host of Modern Wisdom. And I like Chris. Chris and I are friends. I really like what he posts and put out there. And he, he's, he or his team created this reel. And it was one of his guests talking about why the 10,000 hour rule is BS. I mean, everybody's probably heard at this point of 10,000 hours. That's what makes you a master. And he says, well, I know a lot of people who, you know, if you don't, if you don't spend time thinking

• 17:45Speaker 00

  about what you want to do, you can do something for 10,000 hours. But if you do it wrong, that's why the 10,000 hour rule is BS. And I'm like, okay, stop. Just stop. Please just freaking stop for a second. Like every single person who knows of the 10,000 hour rule knows that inherent in the rule is the fact that there's got to be some sort of intentionality and purpose behind it.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Deliberate practice was the whole.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  I made a poster. Of course. But this guy's pretending like he's an idiot. Like, I don't know. I don't understand. Tucker Carlson does the same thing. He's like, I don't know. I'm just asking questions. When he's actually not really doing that. And I wrote back and I said, dude, everybody inherently knows that the 10,000 hour rule possesses the concept of deliberate practice, like you said, and intentionality. Said, I've probably wiped my ass at least 10,000 hours of my life. And I never really once considered getting better at it until maybe I was down to three sheets of toilet paper. But like, we all

• 18:50Speaker 00

  know that the 10,000 hour rule has the inherent quality of deliberate and intentional practice. It's just weird that we try to make a huge thing out of everything and nothing.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Well, cause think what they, I mean, I don't know this individual, but in most cases, you know, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. In most cases, we live in a soundbite society and there's so much content out there now that somebody's trying to make some contrarian take on a lot of pre-established frameworks. Cause think, that's what the internet wants. They want some soundbite where somebody's delivering a new name for some kind of framework or a contrarian take. And I'm surprised that guy didn't say, well, yeah, it's not the 10,000 hour rule. What I really like to think of it as is the 100,000 minutes rule. It's like, dude, this isn't new, you know, but I think people really struggle to come up with their own original thought. So it's just easier to take a contrarian approach to something because then you can bite off that and get people riled up.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, part of it is I had a conversation. I've got an executive group of guys. We all work together and we've been talking about this concept of fractional C-suite executives, you know, CFOs, CMOs, COOs, et cetera, fractional CFO, for example, which really is just another word for part-time or freelancer. But fractional CFO sounds a whole lot more marketable than freelancer or part-time CFO.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Give me some, give me some fancy nomenclature and all of a sudden, and like, listen, I don't want to be a hypocrite. I had to come up with ways to make my framework for my work and other people's work. And I'm sure you've had to do this. You have to make it symbolic. You have to mean it's about like, it's something when it's clearly biting off something that's been established, already been redone 13 times. And then it's really easy to, I think, thank God, there is so much content today because I think it's getting a little bit easier and easier to see the people that are mailing it in. I mean, you can't hide for long, you know, especially in today's day and age where like, you don't, sadly, all you need is like a hefty dose of pragmatism to stand out because everybody, I mean, how long have we been beat over the head now?

• 21:03Speaker 02

  By this morning routine stuff and this optimization stuff and all these kinds of mythical things that are all supposed to have led to success for all of us in five steps or less. So, I mean, thankfully, if somebody's listening to this, it just is like, is there ever going to be a time where like non-sexy stuff is in vogue now? I mean, I do think it's now and I think it's coming more and more.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  It will be once we get offline and we start touching grass, as they say, you know, that, that's when it actually becomes more significant and, and meaningful, you know, it's, it's like the other one that comes to mind and, and we're going to tie back into your topic in your book, because this is important, but the other one that comes to mind is this concept of intermittent fasting. And it's like, ah, intermittent fasting, I don't eat till 11. I'm like, oh, you mean you don't eat breakfast?

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Occasional eating.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Like, that's literally what, that's the definition of intermittent fasting. You just don't eat breakfast. Like you eat dinner at seven or whatever.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  And then you don't eat breakfast and then you have lunch. And you call it intermittent fasting. I call it, you just didn't eat breakfast. But it's got, everything's got to be fancy and I think people are burned out on it, which leads to what you talk about, the anti-hero advantage. And, and I'm going to explain it the way I see it and then correct me and, and massage that a little bit. But I think it's really advantageous, ironically, in society today to just express all of your flaws, all of your warts, all of your bruises and bumps and moles and everything else. Because everybody else is just so polished that we just can't believe anybody anymore unless they're actually willing to tell the truth.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  Now, I do have a concern and one of the concerns is that I think, and people are already doing this, it's the vulnerability movement. The fact that, oh, I can just express something and use it as an advantage to put me in a position of authority. And it could go the other way, too. It's really wild.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, people make, you mean, people making a meal out of their so-called trauma, right? And people go through shit without a doubt and it's all, it's all valid in their context. But yeah, what you're talking about too is like, people just, they make a meal out of it and then they think, oh, I can tell this story and da, da, da, da. And then it makes me a differentiator. It's a differentiator. It's like, nah. And when I talk about anti-hero in the context of the book, you know, I'm not talking about a villain or anybody that like does quote unquote dark stuff. What I'm talking about, and you already hinted at it, is it's a big issue in society now where we have this heroic ideal. Let's say somebody's just like, am I a good leader? Am I a good husband? Am I a good person? We have this heroic ideal that we're supposed to live up to a certain standard and standards are good.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  You do have to have standards, but what I mean in the context of this heroic ideal is you gotta have the perfect morning routine, be squeaky clean. You've got to have it all figured out, be in a good mood, always be optimized. And what the issue with that is, is it's not relatable and it leads to a lot of people who live in the real world, burning themselves out, trying to reach some overly polished idea that's not even real. I mean, none of us know somebody like that, that literally has it all figured out. And so my book is in a contrarian take. My book is just saying, listen, a lot of what you've been told of what makes a great leader, is by and large BS. Like even if we look at like a Winston Churchill or a JFK, right?

• 24:30Speaker 02

  These people had tremendous issues of their own. Winston Churchill was an alcoholic, if not borderline alcoholic, dealt with his own form of depression. Lincoln, it's well known, he had severe melancholy. JFK Junior had Addison's disease, had his own kind of flaws with his relationship, abused corticosteroids and, and other forms of barbiturates to deal with a lot of the pain of his Addison's disease. But we sweep that stuff under the rug because we feel like it would wipe away this like patina. Oh, like what, what if people knew Martin Luther King actually did this, when in reality, no, no, that would actually encourage more people, good people, pragmatic people, what I'm calling like anti-heroes, people that have dealt with the gray,

• 25:12Speaker 02

  dealt with their own stuff to step up because now they would feel like they actually belong. So like the anti-hero in the context of my book is somebody that's just highly pragmatic, a whole person. They're able to tap into the wide kaleidoscope or range of their personality. Sure, sometimes we have to be caring and empathetic and vulnerable. And other times you gotta practice a little bit of ruthless compassion and you gotta get after some folks. And to, to cap that off, because I know that was long-winded, but for me, I didn't have a lot of books like that. Every book was like, and God bless them, they're great. Like I love how to win friends and influence people. But I did not love like make the big time where you are, or the energy bus, or things like this.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  Like that didn't help me deal with a manipulative person in front of me and my own self doubt. Like charisma and feel-good attitudes aren't enough to deal with the bull crap that you're going to deal with every day. So I just wanted something that framed it that said, hey, don't accept yourself how you are, get better. But also don't, don't get tricked here, understand the reality. And by adapting like this, you also be ready to deal with mechanisms and, and things like that, that other people will try to do to take advantage of you.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  What would you say about this? Because at, at a minimum, anecdotally, I would,

• 26:38Speaker 00

  I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you. That's the word I was going to use, but I don't think I'm disagreeing with you. But at a minimum, let me present this, this thing to you. So, but I don't disagree with you. I think that is important as a leader to have that human aspect of it. That, that's crucial.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  But it's interesting because over the years, I've been doing this for 11 years now. And one of the common themes that I always hear, always, is well, we just want to have regular guys on the podcast. That's what people say. We just want to have regular guys. This is a sentiment that is expressed to me all the time and I understand the sentiment. You don't relate with Jaco, you don't relate with Goggins, you don't relate with Matthew McConaughey. You don't relate with Andrew Huberman. Like pick, pick your name. I don't care. Pick the name. You don't relate with those people because they've, partially because they've pedestalized themselves and partially because other people, society has put them on a pedestal. They don't belong. Not to say they're bad people, but we, we, we make these people heroes

• 27:39Speaker 00

  and we forget that they're humans. I've had the fortune of being able to build relationships with a lot of these guys and I see the good things and I see the flaws and I see that they're human beings and that's actually a good thing for me. But what's interesting is for every time I hear, well, I just want to hear from regular guys. I might have a quote unquote, regular guy on the podcast and it flummies.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  They don't listen. Yeah, they won't listen.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  Nobody listens. So, because what do they want to hear from? They want to hear from Matthew McConaughey and Andrew Huberman and Chris Williamson and Jaco and like all these guys who are great people. I'm not downplaying who they are, but it's a, it's a really interesting dichotomy when we say, I just want to hear from a regular guy who I relate with. But I'm not going to listen to it. I'm going to listen to this guy I don't relate with. What do you attribute that phenomenon to?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Well, two things. And one, I just want to be clear, we're not talking about like, the anti-hero is not, hey, just be a regular guy leader. But I'll, I'll shelf that for a minute and come back. I think what you're talking to is ironic, ironically, is its own form of familiarity. When you, when you think of people's behavior, the most reliable indicator of human behavior is their own self-interest. So even though they say they don't want to hear from a McConaughey or some of the names that you mentioned, to a degree, a part of them knows what they're going to get or they're wondering, they're, they kind of like, at the very least, they know they're probably listening to a semi-media trained person who's not going to waffle or they're going to give themselves something that they can hear that McConaughey or somebody says that they can disagree with and feel some form of superiority.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Or it's just, hey, this might be worth my time where let's say you had Paul Hamlish on, and I don't know if there's a Paul Hamlish. It's completely ironic, but since they don't know that name.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like, I don't know him.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like, I don't know what I'm going to get, so I'm not going to listen. I mean, you know this, people don't think that deeply. The average person doesn't. So the minute they see a name, they just think, I don't know what that is. That's not familiar. Give me something familiar. But then, like you mentioned, they're being contradictory because they're saying they want a regular guy or somebody they haven't heard make the non-stop rounds. So they should want something unfamiliar, but I think it's a lot of uncertainty of they don't really know. And, and I'll say this, it's definitely not just you. We quit doing guests for a while and we had interesting feedback from our audience because I was like, you want to hear just me? Like that, I don't want to hear just me. And when we surveyed them, the, the sentiment was

• 30:12Speaker 02

  certain time, how do I phrase this? They're, they don't always know what they're going to get with a guest. I mean, you know this, certain guests will dodge questions and they may not always mean to, but they dodge or they, you know, they may not get to the point, or I've had people on that they just can't quit selling their own stuff. And by all means, like, like you're doing, you're doing a great job of it. Hey, we'll talk about the book, but let's do that. We're having a real conversation. The book's just a part of it. And so what they said is with you, Brett, we know that at least you're going to make a topic-driven episode and get to a clear point. And that's the same thing. There's a familiarity, there's a certainty. I want what I want and I want to know what I'm getting kind of thing there.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Just going to step away from the conversation very quickly. I want to talk with you about something because we're talking about leadership today. And if you've ever walked into a room and felt this tension shift, you know, maybe somebody's shutting down, that could be your wife, or your kids, or a client, or your boss, or maybe somebody's overcompensating, somebody's just trying to, you know, keep the peace with you, then you already know that these, these roles of leadership exist. It's the enforcer, it's the rescuer, and it's the anchor. And most men default into one of these categories without ever choosing to default in one of these categories.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  It's all based on their biological makeup and their experiences. And that default, whatever it is, good, bad, or indifferent, is quietly running your leadership, your marriage, your friendship, your business, your clients, every aspect of your life, whether or not you're aware of it. And that's exactly what we're going to break down live tomorrow night in the War Room. Again, it's September 16th, it's at 8:00 PM Eastern, and I'm going to walk you through how to identify which role that you default into under pressure. That's the most important thing. What do you do under pressure? Okay, why the other two matter just as much of those roles?

• 32:16Speaker 02

  And how to move between them on purpose, instead of just getting stuck in the one default that's been running and operating your life? Guys, this is not theory. This isn't like hopeful or wishful thinking. It's really a framework that you're going to use the next time things get tense at home, or in, in your, your boardroom, or in your community. And I want you to be there. Spots are available for you, and this one is live. It's free, it's available, there's no expense to joining us. I just want you there, and we want to learn about how to be better leaders as men.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  So if you go to orderofman.com/warroom, that's orderofman.com/warroom, you can get registered, you can RSVP, and then I will plan on seeing you tomorrow night. Until tomorrow, at 8:00 PM Eastern, at orderofman.com/warroom, let's get back to the conversation.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would agree with that. I think there's this, well, there's also social capital, right? Because we are so inundated with absolutely everything, that what we do as human beings, is we start looking at people with, the term I use is influence, credibility, and authority. So you, obviously Brett, have influence with certain groups, more so than other groups. So for example, you have a large level of influence with your family. That makes sense. Familiarity, you're leading them well, et cetera, et cetera. You have a large sense of influence with the community that you've built, with the strength and conditioning community. If I were to dump you into the blue haired liberal, liberal, female culture, probably

• 34:01Speaker 00

  not a whole lot of influence in that area. And so all the blue haired liberals are like, who the hell's this guy? And they will reject you, not because of your, well, it's just tribalism, not because of your ideas, but just because you don't fit the mold.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  I get it. I actually understand why we do that, because I don't have the time to vet every single person. So I need to rely on other people in my community, who I have respect for, to help with some of that vetting process. So when a Jordan Peterson comes on a podcast, it's like, oh, this guy's already been vetted. We know what he's going to say, we know who he is, we know what tribe he speaks to, and I'm good. Check, understood.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Totally. And we, we have heuristics, like I, and feel free to use this when you market this episode. I tend to, most of the group that listens to me are people that are highly pragmatic, they've kind of been through a lot in life, they don't like pie in the sky. Like even when I market myself, somebody asked the other day, they're like, we'd love to have you as a speaker, we've heard about you from so and so, like, give us a quick pitch. And just as you mentioned, when you named the names, me using names is not me being derogatory, it's just giving an example of differentiation. I'm like, well, listen, there's certain people that are going to come in and do the trust fall, rah rah, kumbaya stuff. And then there's other people that are going to come in and do more of the militaristic, I'm going to shout at you until you feel motivated stuff. We don't do any of those things.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Like, we come in, we speak about the dark and messy realities of leadership, we get very hands-on, right? You're actually going to do what we call social scrimmaging, you're going to deal with different kinds of role play, you're also going to think, you're going to laugh. Our clients are people across 30 different professions. We have healthcare professionals that will work on different influence strategies in negotiation against strength coaches, against first responders. And that, and that's again, going back to like, what we mean by anti-hero is not a regular dude, not like, hey, this is regular Hal. An anti-hero is somebody who's actually had to work through learning how to know how to use their dark side for good. You know, like, they understand that they're going to deal with manipulative people, Machiavellian people, they don't live in a pie in the sky world, like with a can-do attitude's going

• 36:14Speaker 02

  to overcome it all. They've had to overcome their own, like, conflict. I mean, think about how many of us, you and I both, and your listeners, and my listeners, right? We all have our own ego defense mechanisms. Some might avoid, in the book, we, we call conflict archetypes. There's the counterpuncher, there's the escapist, there's the intellectualizer, and everybody's got their own form of how they deal with conflict. And so an anti-hero is kind of somebody that's been there.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  For sure. That's interesting.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  You, and, and do me a favor, don't be, don't, don't disagree just for the sake of disagreement, but let me try to ask you, if this is part of why you counterpunch? And I'm not trying to read you, it's a genuine question from one counterpuncher to another. Does any part of that counterpunching come out? Let's say you're critiqued or criticized, or what have you, just in general, all right? Does some of it come out because you feel like that person doesn't actually know how much time and effort and care you put into something? And so it's like, they're coming at you for something superficial, when you're like, MF'er, I've thought 13 levels deep about this, and you're coming at me? Like, could you take your crap pretty seriously?

• 37:28Speaker 00

  Well, I would say this about it, and I like the way that you, no, I like the way that you framed it. I would say yes, but by knee jerk reaction, and this is going to be, this is not going to be flattering, but I'll just say it, is, it actually ties in exactly with what you're saying. You are inferior to me on the topic that we're discussing. And I, and I know that doesn't sound flattering, but I think that actually ties exactly into what you're saying, is like, I've done the research, I've done the time, I've spent this energy, I've spent these resources, I've gone through all the hardship to get me to where I am. I won't be lectured to by some sniveling snot-nosed punk who hasn't spent any amount of time considering the conversation that we're even having right now.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  So it's definitely ego-driven, but also, I'm not going to be lectured to and disrespected by somebody who hasn't put in the time I have. I would agree.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, great example. And so when we talk about an anti-hero, I mean, I guess if you wanted to oversimplify it, it could be somebody who's quote unquote, integrated their shadow in the Jungian sense, right? They've done work on themselves, they can admit where they've kind of fallen short, but they also see the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be. So they, like, that's a whole point. Like, somebody, somebody that blames everybody else, somebody that it's never their fault, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and victim mentality, that's not an anti-hero, no matter how much of a normal person. You have to have gone through your dark side, owned that, learn how to leverage that for good. And then also in the book, like, because the book's split into four parts. One is, understanding how the world really is, right? Let's do a deep dive into human nature.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  And I don't, I don't know why pragmatism has all of a sudden become synonymous with negativity, like to tell people, most folks are self-interested. That shouldn't be cynical. That's true. Most folks are self-interested. That's a huge part of human behavior, right? And, and, and so we go into some things that maybe people have been lied to when they read traditional leadership books. And then it's like, okay, well, let's figure out where you maybe are falling short. Where are some, like, are you a people pleaser? Do you deal with a lot of imposter phenomenon? Not to insinuate you're falling short, because you deal with imposter phenomenon, any healthy person should, they should have some form of self-doubt. But what do you do? And like, why do you do that? Own that, figure that out, let's work through that. And we give them frameworks.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  But then also, great, now how do you deal with other people? Because you're going to, there's going to be so many different communication styles. You're going to have to learn how people, some people will try to take advantage of you through guilt, through aporia, they're always going to try to use logic, like, can you actually figure out from a jujitsu or sparring sense, like, how, what are my weak points here? And so our, the book and our work broadly are for people that have kind of just realized, yeah, man, like, you can't really have clean hands through leadership, you're not always going to be liked, you're going to have to make really difficult decisions, it doesn't give you an excuse to be an a-hole, but like, you're going to have to, like, for me, a big part of, I have to learn how to be a bit more patient sometimes and compassionate. My default is to like, why are you wasting time?

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Let's get this shit done, let's move forward. And so just helping people become a little bit more balanced, otherwise, how do you navigate the gray area? You're very easy to manipulate and take advantage of, if you haven't done the kind of work that this book walks you through.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I laughed because that's why you and I get along. Like, we don't need to worry about the fluff or the BS. We can just get right to it. And also, I like this concept of the regular guy that we're talking about. I don't know if that's antithetical to, I don't know if that is the anti-hero or antithetical to it. We can talk about that. But it's interesting to me because if you say that, hey, I just want to have a regular guy in my life who I respect. Well, I mean, I had, I sat down with Jaco a couple of weeks ago at lunch, we were eating like tacos or something. I don't even know, like, we were just, we were at jujitsu camp together. And that's a regular dude. Like, he, his two daughters were there with him,

• 41:33Speaker 00

  and they're wonderful. And like, clearly, I was actually really impressed with this. He and his two daughters have a beautiful relationship that I had not seen before. And they're silly, and they're funny together, and he's laughing and joking, and they're talking about family memories. And he's also hard ass, because everybody knows that of him. And I saw a different side of him. And I'm like, oh, this is a regular dude. So either we're all regular, or no one is. And I'm okay with actually acknowledging either one. If we're all regular, that means that we can do something great in spite of being regular. If nobody's regular, then we have no box to put ourselves in, and we can be as quirky,

• 42:15Speaker 00

  quirky, weird, annoying, funny, successful as we have a desire to be.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, listen, I just think, like, balance is important, right? Like, I have this image right now. It's my favorite thing in my office, because I have different forms of symbolism, just like you do. And did you ever see the movie Logan?

• 42:37Speaker 00

  Hmm, like a Wolverine thing? No, probably not, because I don't get into the superhero stuff. But yeah, I know.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, for me, you know, and, and one thing that I love about screenwriting is, I mean, even if somebody could be the most anti-superhero person in the world, that movie has nothing to do with that ostensibly, right? That movie, the picture is Wolverine's hand, holding a little girl's hand. And because that movie is about the same things that make you ferocious, right? You've also got to lead, like, for him, he has to learn how to love. And I won't give it away, or people that have seen it maybe will understand what I'm talking about. But it's not worth getting into on this airtime. Like, for him to become a more complete human, he has to tap into something different, because his daughter, who's in that movie, she only knows one side of herself, and that's absolutely ferocious,

• 43:27Speaker 02

  because nobody's done anything but hurt her, and whatever. So for him to truly help her, he has to learn how to love. Or if you want a more simple example, like The Dark Knight, right? That's, that's perhaps, that is also not a superhero movie. That was a movie by Chris Nolan, all about game theory. That movie is about human behavior. And the whole concept there is no matter how many times Batman tried to beat the Joker, Heath Ledger's Joker, through playing by simple rules and rigidity and control, the Joker wasn't going to allow that to happen. So literally, it wasn't until Batman, in that instance, was like, you know what, I'm gonna have to be the bad guy. I've got to break my rule, I've got to do this, I've got to become something fundamentally different. And so this is a

• 44:09Speaker 02

  story we tell in the book about this surgeon. There's a woman who's a surgeon, real story. She's a preeminent nerve surgeon in the world, or at least was at the time of this writing. I don't know how they rank that, if it's like college football rankings. And, long story short, somebody who was on their last ditch attempt to save their leg because of a severe nerve entrapment, went to see her. And if this surgeon couldn't cure this woman, couldn't help her, she was gonna have to have her leg amputated. So she stops the surgery midway through, because the surgeon is trapped, like, she can't figure out, she's stuck now, too. Incredibly complex case. She goes and has her assistant take pictures of a book,

• 44:51Speaker 02

  a reference manual, an anatomical manual, comes back, and literally was able to save this woman's leg. That manual was Pernikoff's Atlas. It was written by Edward Pernikoff, is blacklisted because Edward Pernikoff was the head of medicine for Hitler's Third Reich. And the images within it were thought to be Holocaust victims, the bodies of Holocaust victims. And even though anatomically, it was the most accurate drawing, and it's been used by surgeons worldwide, right? It was looked at as you should have never used that manual. Now, the female doctor in this, she was certainly not sympathetic to the Nazi

• 45:34Speaker 02

  party, denounced Hitler, all these things. She said, listen, it is my job to do no harm. It is my job to save a leg. Like, I need to use every resource at my disposal. And it actually went in front of a medical review board, Jewish doctors and preeminent Jewish surgeons from all over the world weighed in on it. And they said, if something, even if it's born of pure evil, like this book was, can be used for good, it is our responsibility to use it. And so this topographical atlas that to this day, no more accurate drawings of the human body exists, could be used to save this person's leg, they could. And so people can use it today to help people, even in dire circumstances, as long as they get

• 46:16Speaker 02

  their permission ahead of time. And so that's, listen, like, this book speaks to, like, what a horrible situation, what a horrible choice to have to be made. But what are you gonna do if you're Dr. Susan McKinnon? Are you not gonna, this tool exists regardless. And other doctors and surgeons we interviewed for this book, we said, what would you do? Where's your stance? And they go, Brett, if most people knew where medical research came from, you would denounce just about everything. There is nothing that moves anything forward in this world that doesn't have some form of grisly background. That's the anti-hero. The anti-hero is somebody that you don't have to agree with something, you don't have to like it, but you have to make the best decision you can in the moment, to do the greatest good you can, even when stuff is a shit show.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  So, okay, well, let me ask you this. So then, do the ends justify the means?

• 47:11Speaker 02

  What are we talking about? Nuclear war? Or in this case, using Pernikoff's Atlas to save a leg?

• 47:16Speaker 00

  I think, I think this case, we would all say, you know, clearly, we saved a leg here, or she saved, not we, she saved a leg here. And we'd say, that wasn't, by the way, that was not her choosing to do those horrific things to those innocent people.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Okay, so I would say that's not a case of the ends justifying the means. She didn't, she didn't participate in the means, she only participated in the ends. But there are things that we may have to do that are viewed from history as maybe questionable, or unethical, or potentially even immoral. If the outcome is good, does that mean it gives us some sort of pass for the way the outcome comes to be? Or is there some sort of moral culpability, regardless of the outcome, in the way that we show up?

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's contextual, right? And that's what you balance being in, like, that anti-hero, is you have to deal with the fact that you're gonna deal with uncertainty. I mean, that's one thing that you know about life, is you're gonna deal with uncertainty, and you're gonna make, I mean, the whole point of making difficult decisions, which is a part of leadership, whether you're leading your family or a business, is that not everybody's gonna like them. And there's gonna be secondary and tertiary consequences for everything. I mean, most people forget, the Nobel Peace Prize was created by Alfred Nobel, who invented dynamite. And while he was alive, his nickname was the Merchant of Death. He created dynamite to help with excavation. And people used it for war, and killing people. So it was

• 48:52Speaker 02

  in his last will and testament, that his fortune was used to create what now is known as the Nobel Peace Prize. When they created traction for tires, you know, to help people have fewer car accidents, that increases the amount the engine has to work, which increases pollution. Antibiotics have now created antibiotic resistant bacteria. So I think people just have to recognize, and this is one of the first parts of the book, we deconstruct one of the leadership myths of a great leader always knows what to do. The hell they do, you know what I mean? Like, you have no idea, because even the right decision in the moment, to a point that I think you're making, can trickle down to be a horrific decision, five weeks, five months, five years later. But you gotta do the best you can, you know?

• 49:35Speaker 02

  But we live in a world where think of any good people, pragmatic people, don't step up to lead, or do whatever, because they're so worried about the legion of decency, and be, and judging them, and getting outcasted, and what if everybody doesn't like them? And that's not the point of life, right? You're gonna, you're, none of us are gonna get out of it with clean, you have to do the best you can with the decision, with the information you have at the time. And you're gonna have to own those consequences, too.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Well, I like the idea. I mean, certainly resonate with the idea of owning the consequences on a, on a micro level. I say controversial and, and polarizing things every single day. Part of the difference between some people is I actually believe what I say. I, I think some people are just saying things to be contrarian or to rile other people up. I don't do that. I actually believe what I say. And yeah, I've been called sexist, misogynistic, homophobic, Islamophobic. I mean, you, you fill in the blank, but here's the difference. I don't care. I actually don't care if you call me those things because I feel like, number one, those

• 50:42Speaker 00

  are my opinions. And number two, I believe that those opinions will move culture and even my small little subsection of it in a direction that I think is advantageous and better for everybody, even though other people will not agree. And I don't care. You could not agree.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, think about that.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  It does not bother me.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Right. Do you want your work to be, I mean, it's funny, when we chose the title for this book, uh, there were people already, our publisher was like, hey, just so you know, this isn't going to be a bestseller. And I said, well, tell me your opinion on this. And they said, well, there's a reason, there's a reason so many of the books that you're rallying against exists, the five steps for this and the, you know, or basically these books that are just TED Talks crammed into a book, because people want what we call prescriptive reductionism in the book. They want simple, they want a beautiful lie, you know, and, and then we had to be very mindful about the subtitle chosen, which has become the leader you're meant to be, when it was really going to be how to deal with chaos, conflict, so on and so forth, because they were worried that certain people would think that the anti-hero

• 51:46Speaker 02

  advantage sounded aggressive, or masculine, or this, or people are going to think it's a graphic.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  Almost, yeah.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Right. And I go, double down, you know, like, I think they wanted the book to be called, You Don't Have to Be Liked. And I go, no, that's not what my audience, core audience struggles with. Most of my audience, like you, knows you're not going to be liked. You own that, you know, but you're going to deal, you're still, no matter how actualized you as Ryan today is compared to 10 years ago, you're still going to deal with doubts and demons and manipulative people and power dynamics and resistant to change. Great. This book's a playbook for that. This book is not an arm around the shoulder being like, it's okay, Ri-Ri, you know, don't worry about other people's opinions. Like, you can go buy a million books like that at the airport, you know? And so I told them, I'm fine with it not being a bestseller as long as it's honest, but I think you guys are underestimating

• 52:35Speaker 02

  it, because it's going to speak to a lot of people that are tired of prescriptive BS, superficial BS, and this is going to give them stuff that they can deal with, whether it's a 19-year-old girl who's trying to figure out why their friends are shady, or a CEO trying to figure out, you know, how to get out of their own way to do what they need to do, uh, to make this decision, even if it is laying off 10,000 people. That sucks, you know, but like, you're going to have to do these things sometimes.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  I, I think why it's so important with the work you're doing is because there's a point, and I believe that more and more people are reaching it and will continue to reach it, where we just can't keep doing the same thing. The rah-rah, supportive, it's okay, Ri-Ri type mentality is really great until things go sideways, until the IRS says you have a hundred thousand dollar tax bill, or your wife comes to you and says, I want a divorce, or you get a DUI, or she catches you watching pornography, or you're unfaithful to her, or your business partner screws you over, or somebody T-bones you, and like, fill in the blank with all the shit that we need to deal with on a daily basis as men.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  And I think we're coming to an impetus now where it's like, you know, what's this whole, like, pie in the sky, everything's wonderful, everything will work out, like, you just have to have belief, is just not enough. It's not enough. It hasn't been enough for me.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  No, and you give great examples there. And that's why I made a point of like, when I sat down to write it, I'm like, this book has to teach people how to deal with internal conflict as well, because that's the root cause of, you know, so many behaviors. And, but when you think about what so many of the bestselling leadership or self-help books have been, they position it all as external conflict. Well, you have a bad boss. Well, you have a bad partner. You need to escape this relationship. You need to quiet quit. You need to do that. What the hell does that teach us? And so like, if you literally want to think, how can I become more adaptable? Because we're always going to deal with change. Well, you've got to deal with internal and external conflict. And you've got to quit overthinking. You've got to quit escaping into whether it's drugs, or alcohol, or porn,

• 54:50Speaker 02

  or whatever you're, you know, and, and quit people pleasing. And you have to have something that allows you to go back to and be like, yep, I'm intellectualizing there. Yep, I'm, I'm, I'm being a counterpuncher here. I can understand where I'm the problem. Let me try to own that. And then let me try to figure out how I can leverage this. And so it's, it's a fine line. I just think that it's sad, to your point, that we can almost predict what is going to go viral today. And that's so ridiculous, like, because all you have to do is go out with real people and you'll hear them say, oh, I'm dealing with this, I'm dealing with that, I'm dealing with this. And before, I never really had a book to recommend them. I mean, I was a fan of Robert Greene, so I read the Forty Laws of Power

• 55:32Speaker 02

  and stuff like that. And I have deep respect for Robert, had him on the show, but like, later books kind of got a little bit, you know, like, it was just hard to apply it. So I was like, well, don't criticize other people's stuff. And that's certainly not me criticizing him in a vacuum. He's a genius. But like, I was like, don't criticize if you're not going to write something. So I thought, okay, what is a book that real people can use every day, and they can go back to when they feel like they see it again? But I, at the end of it, man, I know you have kids. I don't want to raise my kid in a world where the answer is just wishful thinking or pass the buck. Like, that's not, that is not a responsible parent to me.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Well, I, I wholeheartedly agree. And this is why I love self-development and having this conversation. But it's interesting, because at the same time, I've noticed this trend, because I'm in the world of podcasting. I have been for 11 years, which I remember when I started talking to people about what I did, they, they'd ask, what do you do? I'm like, I have a podcast. And I remember, they would say, what's that? That's how long I've been doing this. What's that? And I'd have to say, well, consider radio on demand for any subject you want to hear about. And they're like, oh, cool. And this is the inevitable question I always got. What's your real job?

• 56:51Speaker 02

  People ask you that?

• 56:53Speaker 00

  That's actually my real job. Oh, all the time. Like, what do you, what's your real job? What do you do during the day? What's your, what's your full-time position? All the time. Inevitably, I got that question. And they weren't being malicious. They were just curious, more than anything.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  But, but it's interesting, because now, I stay on the trends. Self-development isn't so relevant as it once was with podcasting. What's more relevant is cultural narrative. That's why Joe Rogan's podcast does so well. Sean Ryan is another great example. Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro, like, find, find these top podcasts, and it's all culturally driven. Like, what about COVID really exacerbated this? Oh, what's COVID and Fauci and the, the vaccine? And now it's, you know, conspiracy about 9/11, because we're on the, on the,

• 57:50Speaker 00

  on the back of, of September 11th. Uh, or it's, you know, aliens, and it's the government this, and the Jews that. And it's become, it's no longer about self-development anymore. It's all about this cultural bullshit, and it's all just entertaining. Like, nobody, I don't want to say nobody, but fewer and fewer people care about actually improving themselves as much as they care about, there's a show, I think it's called like Mormon Housewives or something, and it's in, I'm in Southern Utah, this one's in Salt Lake. Like, we are so easily distracted, and it's actually really discouraging, man, if I'm being honest.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think, well, that does the same thing we're talking about where people deflect conflict, right? It's easier to just blame it on the culture and something else that's going on. And of course, that's relevant. I mean, we can't run around saying you take on traits of the five people you spend the most time around and things like that. But it become, that's what I think. I think today's culture, for lack of a better term, more than ever, sits on this nexus of like entitlement and escapism. You know, like, everybody thinks that they should have it their way, or that people should kowtow to them, or whatever. And if not, well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna work on myself, or whatever, I'm gonna blame it on these other circum. That's easy. You know, it's just like I was telling my son

• 59:15Speaker 02

  the other day, we had actually turned off, we were watching a National Geographic show, and then like a political ad came on, and I muted that. And he's like, why do you mute those? I go, because we're not talking bad about other people. I go, listen, the lower class talks poorly, like talks about other people, the middle class just obsesses about money, the world class talks about ideas. And I don't care that my six year old doesn't understand that right now. I care that there's this narrative that we're not gonna make our own living talking negative about other people. Now, your listeners could say, well, you're a hypocrite, you just blasted some other books. Sure. Like, but I'm blasting the message, I'm blasting the like, two things can exist at once. Like, I can have deep respect, like, I don't know Mel Robbins. Okay, like, let's say, I get along very well with Mel

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Robbins. But I can also disagree with the concept of let them, which is this big viral thing right now. And one of my clients was like, yeah, I can't just let them. If my, if my staff shows up this way, I can't let them. If my son behaves this way, I can't just let them. Then maybe somebody would say, well, that's an unfair criticism of her book. That's not the point. The point is, is I'm not gonna market my book just by targeting other people's work. What I am gonna say is, we have to have an understanding that shit is gonna be hectic in life. You're gonna deal with nonstop uncertainty, nonstop doubts. It's your responsibility to figure out how to become the kind of person necessary to deal with, because we can't all change the world, but you can change how you operate

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  within it, and you can change your own corner of it. So, that's why you write the book. And so it just, but it is interesting. You're right. Like, people want to escape into things, or let's talk about how the government's hiding this from us. I also think the truth just isn't sexy, Ryan. Like, you know that. Like, let's be, like, I would love for there to, I absolutely believe there's aliens. Let's go there for a minute. I think it's a mathematical certainty. Do I think that there's biological life form aliens wandering around the planet? No, because think about that, we're not that smart, and are, and we would send probes, and forms of AI, and whatever to another planet. So, things, if they exist, that are infinitely smarter than us, certainly aren't sending their biological

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  life forms to dip shit around, watching us nearly blow each other up all the time. But these things are, they're fun to talk about, they're interesting, they cause water cooler debates, and they make people focus on things other than themselves. So, they listen to it. I mean, I would get a fair amount of hate comments, I'm sure, just for saying that.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I, I've always wondered with aliens, like, why are they, why are they inherently smarter than us? Why are they advanced? What if we're the advanced civilization? Why are they smarter? So, I've always had that question. But regardless, and I do have to say it, I'm gonna put this on the record, I don't resonate with Mel Robbins. I like that book, man. That's a good book. I think you're taking a little out of context, but I like that book. But the point that I'm gonna say here is that I don't think you're blasting her, and I wish more people understood that. I can debate ideas, I can critique ideas, I can question ideas, without it being a personal attack

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  against somebody. And that's the problem. Everybody wants to be so offended. Just because I may or may not like what Mel Robbins has to say, doesn't mean if she was my neighbor, I wouldn't love the woman to death. I probably would. She'd bring brownies to me, and I'd go mow her lawn when she was out of town. But that's not the question. The question is the idea, and that has nothing to do with her as a human being.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  A million percent. And that's why I started off that way, right? Two things can be true at once. Right? Just like, I can be very proud of, of my work, and be hypercritical of it at the same time. Like, I have just the right amount of self hate. And that's also, like, I completely agree. And this is why I said, like, I mentioned, I'm oversimplifying it. This is what clients of mine were saying, I can't just let them. Of course, if Mel Robbins was here right now, saying, hey, the book is about, don't let other people throw you off your game with their endless bullshit and whatever. Of course, I get that concept, right? I get that very clearly. But, and she could say, I think you have a bad title, and we could still nine, get, get along on 99%. Which is another reason

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  why I wrote the book, is our inability to do that, to normalize conflict, to metabolize conflict, or just to say one comment, and not turn it into some other big thing. That is, that is eroding. And I think that if you have one, if you were to ask me, Brett, the five most important things that you think any of us need to be successful, especially now, it is gonna be conflict resolution, that skill, communication at an extraordinarily high level, not just, oh, I have a good vocabulary, I communicate every day, like, really skilled, social agility is what I call it in the book. We need creativity, because if you don't have creativity, you're not gonna solve problems without, you know, having everything handed

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  to you. You're gonna have to have critical thinking, because so much stuff out there is absolute crap. And then the fifth one, which speaks to a full circle to what you and I just mentioned, whether it's about Mel, and Jaco, and this and that, is collaboration. More people who are pragmatic, who are trying to put out nonsexy messages with principles that are gonna last the next 10 years, 100 years, 1,000 years, need to be doing more to elevate each other's work, rather than just focusing on nothing but differences. Because it takes no intelligence to just focus on differences. Zero.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  I mean, the hard part is, and again, we talked a little bit about pragmatism, if I can, that's kind of a tongue twister there. But, the hard part is, even just intelligence, like, most people are just dumb. I don't know how else to say it. And, and, and, it, look, we can look at it in politics. Politicians play to the lowest common denominator. And I want to be clear, I'm not talking about a human's potential as it relates to their eternal worth. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying, a lot of people are dumb. And more people are dumb than are intelligent. And some people would call me dumb, and maybe I am, in a lot of ways, actually.

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  But we're all, we're all, we all have that.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  But it's hard, because I don't think, totally. But I think the problem is, is, is, it's like the, you know, you remember when you and I were in high school, and I don't know how, how old you are, Brett, but when you and I were in high school, you know, we had elections, right? And for student body, president, vice president, secretary, treasury, et cetera, et cetera. And it was always the popular dude, or the popular girl, because they said, as, as Pedro on Napoleon Dynamite might say, vote for me, and all of your wildest dreams will come true. Right? And, but that's what people do. And everyone's like, yeah, cool, hooray, celebrate. And they believe it, like idiots, instead of saying, okay,

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  hold on, maybe we do need to rein in some of our debt. Maybe we do need to look at social security and Medicare. Maybe we do need to look at international and foreign spending at the expense of our own well being. Nobody wants to do that, because to your point, it's not sexy. And that's my fear, is that we will just happily march, like, following the Pied Piper into the sea, and drown ourselves like rats.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, because your point, I think, like, I think, another way to put it is, we're just non discerning. And that's the scariest thing. And that's why all you have to do is, and this again, where you and I can laugh, because we're

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  That's way more gracious than the way I said it, Brett, by the way.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Well, I just think that, like, certain, certain, to a degree,

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  You said non discerning, I said people are idiots. So,

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, again, I think they're both true, though. I think, like, I think ignorance, ignorance is valuable on its own right, as long as you recognize it. But that's, that's why I said non discerning, is I don't think people want to admit their ignorance. You know, do you want to be the expert in every room, Ryan?

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  I mean, my ego says yes, but my pragmatism says, no, I would like to learn a few things here and there.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I mean, I like, I like, I joke sometimes and I'm like, man, people drive me nuts. But by and large, I like people. I like being around interesting quirky people. I like having conversations with you. I like having friends that are kind of all over the spectrum, literally and figuratively. Like, I have one friend talking to this guy's like Jimmy Neutron, and then another guy suck in college. But like, I think that people just have to have a realistic sense. And that's why I joke earlier, but truth is said in jest. I have just the right amount of self hate, you know, because somebody goes, oh, I could never write a book. And I go, why not? And they're like, well, I just don't have the confidence. I go, oh, my God, you're just the person to write the book. Writing a book is a terrifying, horrific experience that puts you face to face with your own ignorance.

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  Because you have to find a way to say it, as you know, in the way that you intended, but also still say it in a way that a larger audience understands, you know? And you've got to package it. You've got to remember, like, a stupid thing that I did is I had written this chapter around this topic that, like you said earlier, and I mean this humbly, but I'm an expert on for sure, this topic. And I was really getting into the weeds. And I remember I had to sit back and I reread it and I'm like, oh, my God, what am I doing? I'm like, I have to remember, this has to appeal to the woman who is waiting for her toes to dry at an all inclusive resort before she goes to dinner after a pedicure and a CEO and an operator.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  And like, get out of your head and get in their head. What are you trying to say, moron? And that's probably not great self talk for myself, but like, you know, it makes me go best. So to admit our own ignorance and allow ourselves to come face to face with it is really important. I think the problem, and you spoke to it, is most people don't want to. They'd rather turn on Mormon housewives, or they'd rather turn on Tik Tok, or they'd rather. And it's like, dude, it's not wrong to feel the things you're feeling, embarrassment, guilt, anger, shame, all these things. But it is wrong to hide from them. It's like that Ayn Rand quote. I love Ayn Rand and the Fountainhead. It's like, you can escape reality, but you cannot escape the consequences of evading reality. So just admit your ignorance, or at least kind of ask yourself periodically where I'm the problem.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  And you're going to be ahead of like 99% of the human race who, to your point, doesn't give a shit.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  I remember years ago, when I had written both the books that I wrote, I had this, her name was Sandra Gabini. And she's incredible, you know, she, her and I don't see ideologically. Like, we don't agree on some things, yes, but not everything. And you know what was so great about her is she, during the book writing process that she edited, she said, you know what, Ryan? Like, I don't, from where I sit, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't understand the ideology. I don't understand the argument. You have not made your case here. So if you want to leave this in the book, that's cool, but you're going to need to make your case as to why you're saying that.

• 1:10:38Speaker 00

  And there were some things in the books where I was like, no, here, okay, good. Yeah, I appreciate that. Here's my case. And she's like, cool, perfect, makes sense. And there were other situations where I'm like, oof, I actually can't make that case. That I had to mix because I couldn't make the case.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Speaker 00

  It was pretty good. It was, it was really cathartic for me.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's what I mean. That's, I mean, like, that's why I think those are the people that should be writing books. And, and the big concern too, and I don't know that I should be saying this, because things can get taken out of context today. But how do I want to phrase it? And this isn't me self editing. It's me trying to be concise for sake of your listeners is, let's just put it this way. When I negotiated this book deal, I was pretty frustrated. And I don't know that I was proud of the way I communicated something, but sometimes, you know, have you ever had a situation where you communicated really poorly, but it still must have been the way it needed to be said at the time for the other person, even though you weren't happy with it because it like, it worked? You know what I mean by that? And like, so I had said something where I was like, listen,

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  if you guys won't, if you're not interested in this book, and it was part of my closing pitch, and it wasn't smart, but I said it anyway, because I let my emotions get the best of me. Then I hope you're just satisfied with the fact that I guess every book we're all going to read from here on out is just from like professors at Ivy League universities, celebrities, or people that have given a bid TED Talk. I go, but there is an audience out there that it's not that they don't appreciate those people. It can be yes and, but they also want to hear a different message. And it shouldn't matter the follower count or the patina around their name. It should just matter, holy shit, this person speaks truth.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  Like, I love hip hop. I grew up in 90s hip hop, Eminem, Jay-Z, 50 Cent, but like actual lyricists, right? People that actually had great wordplay, form of poetry, Wu Tang. My son proudly wore a Wu Tang Clan shirt to school today. And I listened to everything else too, Frank Sinatra and country and what have you. But I don't need, the other day I was listening to something on Spotify. I had no idea who this person was. But I knew it was intricate. It was well thought out and it was really good. And I'm so grateful we have things like Spotify because I found a new artist. And it's not set up in the book industry to do that. Why? Because of everything you're saying. We, we want stuff now that is so similar and safe and whatever, but then we complain when we get it.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  So all I'd ask is your listeners to think, okay, are you dealing with something right now, any of you, where it could be somebody you love, or somebody you work with, or yourself is really resistant to change? Maybe you had a job where you put your head down, you did your job, you're exceedingly good at it, but you feel like you got screwed over due to power dynamics. Have you ever felt like you wanted to get better at communicating in a way where you actually said the damn thing you wanted to say? It's not like you changed who you are, but you just had fewer disagreements because you got your point across more clearly. If you've ever dealt with any of those things, then like, I think you'll like the book. But if not, I'm totally cool if you don't like the book. That's fine.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  But we all have to take a stand of like, what is my life actually, what am I actually dealing with right now? Go support content that is representative of that, because otherwise we're all fed more bullshit. You know, that's, that's the thing. And so, but I love, man, that you did that with your editor, because I hope your audience understands this, and this isn't me kissing your ass, because I wouldn't do that. I think that's a big reason why we're friends. I don't think many people know how many authors and people would not, would just not let their editor win. They'd be like, screw you. They wouldn't have that moment. They'd say their editor was dumb, but for you to be like, yeah, I didn't make my point clearly. This needs to go. Like, that's, that's leadership in action, because that's self leadership.

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, sometimes I do get it right, but it's, but it's infrequent. That's why I remember it, because it's so infrequent that I can actually remember the few times where I do get it right. If you ask me the, how many times I've got it wrong, I can't give you a scenario because it's all the time.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  But you learned a lot from that too. I mean, I would imagine, I mean, I know you've been very open. Oh, go ahead.

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  Of course. No, no, keep going.

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  I was just saying, you know, I think you're one of the few people that has done it really well, where, you know, you share things that go on in your life and you can tell you're like actually just sharing it, putting it out there, like letting people know there's no, there's no facade here, there's no BS. And while also not making a meal out of it, like some of the folks. So I appreciate like, you just being genuine, because I think that that's something important for, for like, not only the people listening, but kids and everything have to see other people own mistakes, be vulnerable in a way that's actually real, that's not just like brandified. And more importantly, again, apologies if this isn't allowed on your show, but just as like not superficial bullshit, you know? And I think that stuff is becoming rarer, rarer today.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  And so anybody listening, obviously support Ryan, but find five or six other people that you can support, even if what they say makes you kind of uncomfortable and whatever. We don't like a mirror, you know, I'm sure some of the things that I said have some people up in arms, but it comes from a good place. And like, if you don't have people that are real with you at the end of the day, that's true poverty.

• 1:16:01Speaker 00

  I really think there's just two criteria. Tell me what you think about this, and maybe there's more or less, I don't know. But I think there's really two criteria when evaluating the way people are talking to you. Number one, do they have your best interest at heart? That's the most important thing to me. If, if I know that a person has my best interest at heart, I will give them so much more leniency to talk to me in ways I would not allow other people to talk with, talk to me or, or to me. So do they have my best interest at heart? This, that's the first question. The second question is, is it true? Like, is it true? If I know they have my best interest at heart and what they're saying, even if it's uncomfortable is true, then, all right, well, yep.

• 1:16:43Speaker 00

  Point to you. You got me on that one. And I can take the loss, lick my wounds and figure out how to be better next time.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  Yep. No, I agree.

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  All right, brother. How do we connect with you? Obviously, the book is not quite out. It's on preorder. I'd love for you to tell the guys how to get their hands on the book. But in the meantime, just learn more about what you do, because I appreciate a lot of the ways that you communicate your ideas and insight. I think that's why we're good friends. But I also like that you're somebody who we can banter and debate and discuss and say, I agree or I don't agree. And here's why. That's, those are the kind of people that we need in our lives. So anyways, regardless, how do the guys connect with you?

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, real easy, artofcoaching.com. And, you know, we use coaching as a synonym for a leadership guide teacher. So I mean, like I said, we have people in law enforcement, the military, sport coaches, leaders. So artofcoaching.com is where you can find all of our work, intersection of anything that has to do with relationships. So even if you want to learn how to argue more effectively with your spouse, or, you know, you're trying to reconnect with your kids. We do that kind of stuff as well as leadership, conflict, negotiation based training. And also we have something we call speaker school. So if you want to be a better presenter, we've had folks that have full blown social anxiety, and we've also had people that have TED Talks coming in and speak. So just if you want to improve, the book, The Antihero Advantage is out on Amazon.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  So again, available for preorder, you can go to antiheroadvantage.com and learn more about it. And yeah, I appreciate you very much for having me on.

• 1:18:21Speaker 00

  Likewise, brother. So glad you came on and I appreciate our friendship and who you are and how you show up. So thanks for joining me today.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks for having me.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  All right, gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with a good friend of mine and somebody I really deeply admire and respect, Brett Bartholomew, talking about his latest book and the concept behind it called The Antihero Advantage. If you guys would, just go ahead and leave a rating and review. That goes a long way. I know you think it doesn't, or maybe you think it's not that big of a deal. Or maybe I've asked you a bunch of times and you've never done it. Just go do it. And then I'll never ask you again. I'll ask broadly, but not you specifically. So if you would leave a rating and review, tag me, take a screenshot, share this with your cousin, brother, uncle, coworker, father,

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  whoever, another man that needs to learn how to take his, what he might consider disadvantages and turn them into advantages by way of leadership. Guys, please do that. Also check out the War Room at orderofman.com/warroom. That's going to be held tomorrow, September 16th at 8:00 PM Eastern, orderofman.com/warroom. It's free. Be there. And we will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything. Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.