RICH COOPER | Become a High-Value Man

Every relationship you're in is running a test you don't even know you're taking. And, most men are failing it in slow motion. Today's guest built his reputation calling out the exact moments men hand over their frame without noticing: the pedestal-building, the concessions that pile up one at a time until there are a thousand of them, the "I appreciate your energy" while she's quietly checking out. This isn't theory. It's the pattern behind every man who woke up one day wondering how he ended up as her Plan B in his own home. We're getting into "shit tests" and why they never stop, why contempt is the clock counting down on a marriage, and why the "go plan" is the same as the "stay plan" might be the most freeing sentence you hear all year. We'll cover a few of the 7 spokes of a high-value man, some of the the 21 red flags and 16 green flags worth knowing before you commit, and why proximity, familiarity, and exclusivity are what actually build attraction. If you've ever felt like you're auditioning for your own life, this episode is your wake-up call. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - Introduction and Social Media Platforms 03:47 - Male Friendships and Testing Boundaries 05:08 - The Rise of the "Boss Girl" Avatar 06:51 - Why Modern Men Struggle with Masculinity 11:09 - Taking Frame Back in Relationships 14:18 - The Process of Betatization and Concessions 17:44 - Decisiveness and Leading in Dating 21:08 - How Cultural Narratives Weaken Men 24:36 - Tuning Into Your Inner Asshole 28:02 - Establishing Boundaries and Determinative Action 33:17 - Addressing Toxic Masculinity Accusations 37:10 - Handling Competency and Shit Tests 39:28 - The Fishing Boat Analogy for Maintaining Attraction 42:45 - The 7 Spokes of a High-Value Man 48:58 - Avoiding Bitterness and the Black Pill Mentality 53:45 - Major Red Flags to Avoid in Dating 55:25 - The Controversy Around Women and Tattoos 57:55 - Green Flags to Look for in a Partner 01:00:48 - Overview of 'Top Shelf Man' and Where to Connect Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Every relationship you're in is running a test that you might not even know that you're taking, guys. And most men are failing this thing in very slow and monotonous motion. Today's guest built his reputation calling out the exact moments that men hand over their frame without ever noticing. It's the pedestal building, the concessions that pile up one at a time until there are a thousand of them. It's the "I appreciate you" type energy while she's quietly checking out. And this is not theory. It's the pattern behind every man who

• 0:37Speaker 00

  woke up one day wondering how he ended up as her plan B in his own home. We're getting into what you know as shit tests and why they never stop, why contempt is the clock counting down on marriage, and why the, what he calls the "go" plan is the same as the "stay" plan. And it might be the most valuable freeing sentence that you're gonna hear all year relating to your relationship. We'll cover a few of the seven spokes of a high-value man, a few of the 21 red flags and 16 green flags worth knowing before you commit to a woman, and

• 1:16Speaker 00

  why proximity, familiarity, and exclusivity are what actually build attraction. If you've ever felt like you are auditioning for your own life, then this episode might be your wake-up call.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am the host and the founder of this movement, Ryan Mickler. Glad you're tuning in. Glad you're checking in. I've got a really, really powerful conversation lined up with Rich Cooper. Before I do that, I just want to mention my friends. You've heard me talk a lot about them. It's my friends over at Montana Knife Company. Guys, if you're looking for a high-quality knife that's going to serve you in the field, or in the kitchen, or as an everyday carry, look no further than Montana Knife Company. They're making all of their knives 100% sourced and made in America, and you can check them out at montanaknifecompany.com and use the code ORDEROFMAN at checkout,

• 2:37Speaker 00

  because you'll save some money. And I want you to save some money. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest. His name's Rich Cooper. He spent 16 years building one of Canada's most successful private debt relief companies. He was, or that organization was named one of the country's fastest-growing, three-years-running, and one that earned him a title of Entrepreneur of the Year. Then, his marriage fell apart. And he talks openly about this. He lost nearly everything that he'd built, and he started talking into a camera in his car about what actually happened. And that channel, it was launched in 2014, so just a year before we started, has since passed over a billion views. And he's become

• 3:22Speaker 00

  one of the most direct, and probably the most argued-about voices on the topics of men and masculinity, women, and the truth. Nobody wants to stay out loud about modern relationships. He's the bestselling author of The Unplugged Alpha, The No Bullshit Guide to Winning with Women and Life, and his newest book, The Top Shelf Man: How the Top 5% of Men Build Wealth, Live Life on Their Terms, and Keep High Value Women. Both of these books, they do a good job stripping away the comforting lies men are sold about relationships, and hypergamy, and the selection phase, and the traits that actually keep a high-value

• 4:03Speaker 00

  woman long-term. And it's all built from what he's seen work in his own life, and the countless amount of men that he's coached since.

• 4:15Speaker 00

  Rich, what's up, man? So good to see you. It's been, what, years since we had our last conversation?

• 4:21Speaker 02

  It has. How you doing, Ryan?

• 4:22Speaker 00

  I'm good, man. I'm good. You came out with a new book and I follow you from the sidelines and I don't engage a whole lot. I think you spend most of your time over on X. Is that right?

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like it a little bit more than the other platforms. A little more free speech and you can say whatever's on your mind.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  You don't think you can say that on Instagram? Or Facebook or wherever else?

• 4:41Speaker 02

  No, I've found certain posts that I've done in the past have gotten me warned, like if you post this and it might offend some people, so you might want to change the language. And I'm like, okay, Mark Zuckerberg, whatever you say.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  No, I said it that way because that's how I wanted to say it. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I wanted to say.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. I already lost one account on Instagram, so I figured it's not worth doing it again.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  Have you ever lost anything on X or not?

• 5:08Speaker 02

  No, no. I've had some warnings before when it was owned by the other guy before Elon, but...

• 5:16Speaker 00

  What's his name? Jack Dorsey.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Dorsey, that's it, yeah.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, it's wild, man. It's, I guess we all find our platforms that we resonate most with. I don't spend a whole lot on Twitter just because it just seems like a shit show, man. Like, but I guess all of them do. I could, I could say, "Jesus loves you," and they're like, "Well, Jesus is a Jew."

• 5:39Speaker 02

  They'll call you Zionist or something. Sure.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. How do you feel like you engage in the world of trying to draw attention? If we're stripping everything else away, that's what we're trying to do, right? Get attention to a thing that we think is going to help the people we serve, but also not get lost in it.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  It's tough because people love a train wreck. They, and that's why they rubberneck on the highways, right? Like even if off to the side and the accident's totally clear, it's like both lanes will slow down to stop and look. So people love a train wreck, which is unfortunate because that, you know, it's a whole, if it bleeds, it leads sort of thing really is true. So you kind of have to infuse some... I guess some lessons or some usefulness behind it or around it or somewhere in that sandwich, but um yeah, that's that's just what happens to work. It is what it is.

• 6:33Speaker 00

  I see a lot of what you post and I can't help but think sometimes in all honesty, I'm like, wait a second, like, is this, is this the real rich or is this the, hey, let me rile people up a little bit? What's your thought?

• 6:44Speaker 02

  It's a bit of both. Yeah, it's a bit of both. I like to have in my Twitter bio, you know, follow me for wisdom and a bit of comedy. And I think the comedy part really didn't like sit with some people. They didn't get the comedy part. So I was like, you know what? Let's just take it out completely and let them figure it out on their own.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  I like that. It's like, if you can't understand the nuance, if you, if, well, I just had a good conversation with a friend of mine before I got on the phone with you and like, I, I was a dick on Friday. Frankly, I was a total dick to him. I sent him a text because he does some work for me and I sent him a text and I was an asshole about it in hindsight. And he sent me a message on Saturday. He's like, dude, and he was an asshole back to me, but I probably deserved it. And then we got on the phone today and he's like, look, I don't bruise easy. I'm like, God, finally, like, somebody I can debate with, I can be a jerk to, he can be a jerk to me and neither one of us are gonna be offended. But that doesn't seem like it's common these days.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty uncommon. I mean, there's that saying about real true friendships where like your good friends will let you talk shit to their face and they'll defend you to your back. So I think it's, I think it's like a game that men like to sort of test with one another. You see it with, you know, women now a lot too. It's like, well, you know, chicks will be like, well, don't you like a challenge? Like, don't you like a gal that's gonna talk back or speak to you the same way that your boys do sort of thing? And it's like, nope, I don't.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  I don't. I don't. And I'll tell you why. You tell me what you think. So like, respond to this, I guess.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  I don't need you to create shit to test me. And I don't want you to push on me the same way that you, rich as my friend, might push on me from a woman. Now, you can lean on me. You can, you can make sure I'm safe or that I'm gonna meet your needs. I think that's part of relationship.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  Reciprocity, right? You meet my needs, I meet yours. But I'm not interested in you being a dude testing me the same way one of my, my brothers would.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know what it is, man? There's a lack of masculinity in the world and with every vacuum that void fills with something. And I think it forces women to be a lot tougher than what they are kind of accustomed to being.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Fair.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  So that's why you have these, you know, this new, new avatar of the, you know, the boss girl. You know, my most recent book, In a Top Shelf, man, I call her Becky. There's a chapter on it that sort of breaks it down. So there's a lot more of those gals out there today.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I actually had a really good conversation because I made a post. You referenced it before we hit record. And essentially I said, you know, I'm looking for a woman who wants to, I don't know, bake. I can't remember what I said, but bake sourdough bread, sing in the shower, decorate my home and homeschool my children, not a woman who wants to train jiu-jitsu, shoot guns, fight enemies and like whatever, whatever, whatever I said. I posted it. I posted it as a story because I knew if I made it a post, it would just be like a shitstorm. I stand by it. I believe it. But I'm like, let me see how this goes over. It went over about exactly how I thought it would.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  And I had this woman, her name is, is Nicole. And Nicole and I have known each other for 30 years. We used to run around in the same circles right out of high school and she messaged me and she said exactly what you said. She said, and she, she's awesome because she'll push on me. And she said, you know, Ryan, like, I appreciate what you're saying, but also women feel obligated to act like men because men aren't stepping up.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's true. That vacuum's gotta fill with something and, you know, in the absence of masculinity, the feminine will take over, but turn it masculine.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Why do you think men are, are looking subconsciously or maybe even consciously for mommy?

• 10:50Speaker 02

  I don't think they're genuinely looking for mommy. I think what it is is that a lot of guys have been raised to be soft. They've been told to become less so she can become more, to be a nice guy, to tell her she's pretty and she smells nice all the time and put her up on a pedestal. And that doesn't work. You know, forty-three percent of households are single mother households. So there's, you know, the absence of masculinity there. And then in the cases where there is a father around or a father that's able to raise the kids, he's usually not a strong leader. He's more of a softer, weaker guy that's more agreeable. So that's why you get this new generation of sort of plugged in beta males that that

• 11:33Speaker 02

  sort of go along to get along and happy wife, happy life and, you know, male feminists and all that sort of stuff. It's just, you know, it's just the trends that we're heading on.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Do you think Becky, that's the term you use, do you think Becky will ever relinquish her masculinity once she's got it?

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Not for the foreseeable future. We need, we need a significant change in culture, society and the structure of all that. I don't know what that's going to take. Maybe a, you know, a small meteor that wipes out twenty-five percent of the population, some kind of like extinction level event that really changes the, a pole shift that, you know, the earth tilts a certain, something that, that, that forces.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  Okay, but let's just say, I know you're joking, kind of, but let's just say that happened.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Tongue in cheek, yeah, but there's some truth to every joke too, right?

• 12:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. But like, what, what would that change? I mean, it would wipe out just as many women as it would men. What would that change?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think it would reset things to the standard norm. Like, the weak would sort of not really function. They wouldn't be able to perform. And the strong would stand up. And I think that women would want to enter the frame of the, the strength and the men that are, that are leading and standing up and able to, you know, perform and, and show the competence, skills that they have always valued.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  I don't see anything changing like anytime soon, you know, we still see these consistent patterns every year, every five, every 10 years, every election cycle where it's like they keep telling most guys to be softer, weaker, more agreeable, to nod their head, bend the knee, you know, like I said earlier, become less so she can become more, you know, let her get promoted, it's her turn, you know, you keep hearing these narratives just about everywhere. And that's why you get a lot of weak guys and that's why the strong masculine guys do so well out there.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not even a contest.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, your competition.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  You literally have to slide over the bar. You don't have to step over it, you just like moonwalk over the bar.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Basically, yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. I've kind of toyed around in my head with this idea of natural selection. I kind of like natural selection, but we've quote unquote evolved past natural selection, where the weakest, most cowardly, most pathetic people among us stay alive. I know that's going to be controversial, but I kind of think it's true.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Isn't that what they want? They want everybody to be agreeable, stand on your dots, wear your face diapers, wasn't that what the whole scandemic was about? It was a test to see what they could get everybody to do?

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, didn't, did you see that Fauci just came out or Rand Paul, I think, I don't even know how he got his diary.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, his diary notes.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  Which is awesome. How did he get his diary? That's my first question.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know, but that was interesting. I mean, I mean, we already knew before that that he was a pure.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Well, you knew, I knew. There's millions of Americans who are like, who didn't know? Now you knew.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  You seem like such a genuine nice guy.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. But no, I think that's what it's about. We let these weenies and these assholes take charge and we just kind of, you know, toe the line and do what we're told and get our little pats on the head and our gold stars like Mrs. Johnson, our first grade teacher gave us when we were six years old.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what it boils down to.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  We see the world through the same lens, my friend.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, so what does a man do about it? Like, let's not talk about it societally. Let's just talk about it. And we can, we can talk about it from a couple of different perspectives. So we've got guy, are you married, Rich? You're married, aren't you?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Divorced, divorced, yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  Divorced, okay. Um, how long you been divorced?

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Uh, when was it? Twenty twelve I finalized. It was a while ago.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  Okay. Are you in a committed relationship? If you don't mind me asking, like a, like a non-harmless relationship?

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  I've been divorced for three and a half years.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  So let's look at it from the lens of, you know, what does a guy who maybe is not in a relationship, maybe he's divorced, do? And then let's take a look at a guy, because there is, there are a lot of men who listen to this who are married, you know, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty years, whatever. And I, I think it's a little bit different for each of those categories. Or maybe it's the same. What do you think?

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Now, when you say, what does he do? Does he, like, what does he do about what he can control? Or what does he do about the world around him? What are we looking at here?

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Let me, let me say this. What does he do? I'm just trying to think about what's the most, okay, here, here's what I'd say. What does he do to get his balls back? That's what I'd say.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  From, well, that's

• 16:14Speaker 00

  For him, for him.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's real tough. Like, when I hear guys like, you know, what do I do to get the frame back? What do I do to get my balls back? You know, my, you know, my balls are my wife's purse. They don't usually acknowledge that, but that's what their friends sort of observe and they might.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  I mean, we joked about it when we were kids. We called it pussy whipped, right? We all joked about it when we were kids. That's what it is.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  I think it's really difficult to change a woman's opinion of you when she's decided that you fit in a certain category, right? Like, if you've been married for ten years and you're pussy whipped and your balls are really in her purse and she doesn't You know, respect you. She shows contempt for you. It's been said that contempt is the clock that ticks down to the end of the, end of the relationship. And you see this all the time publicly at, you know, like Thanksgiving, or, you know, you go to the grocery store even where she's chirping her husband and, and, and almost insulting him publicly in front of other people like, oh, Ryan, you're so incompetent. You, why didn't you, why'd you get those diapers? It's not those ones. I told you it's these ones. You're such a moron. Why don't you listen? You know, like, stuff like that. And I think that when she gets to the point where she really doesn't see you as that strong masculine guy, even if

• 17:19Speaker 02

  you change your behavior, she's, she's still settled on the notion that you're just that weak pussy whip guy. So I think it's really, really tough for guys to take the frame back, to take their nuts back and own the role of the guy in that relationship. I mean, in every relationship, there's, there's, there's a woman and a man and, and one enters the other's frame. And nowadays, it's mostly men through a process of betaization through a thousand concessions. And that, and that's like a small thing. It's like death by a thousand paper cuts. It's like, Ryan, don't brush your teeth over there. You're gonna get toothpaste on the carpet. You're, you kind of mumble off, like, yeah, I'm not an idiot. I know it's not gonna go on the floor, but I'm gonna go over there just to make

• 18:03Speaker 02

  her happy. Or, Ryan, don't put your socks over there. The dark socks go in the dark hamper and the white socks go in the white hamper. And it's like, one thing after another after another. And it's like, I don't think women are trying to pussify men. I don't think they're trying to make him soft and agreeable, but it's just their way of competency test, also known as shit testing the guy to see what he's made of. And he sort of goes along to get along to make her happy because men here throughout their entire life, happy wife, happy life, you know, got a check with the boss, my better half. You know, you see at family events, they're often saying things to the women like, you know, he's really lucky to have you. You'd never see anybody tell women at family events or gatherings, you know, you're, you know, Becky, you're really lucky to have Ryan. You know, you don't usually hear that publicly. It's, it's always, you're the lucky one to have her

• 18:48Speaker 02

  sort of thing. And I think all these narratives that sort of like just build up and pile up. It's just, guys get to a point where they're just... You know, their former version of themselves. I'll share a really interesting story with you. So I was at the gym once and, you know, I got out of the shower and I'm shaving my head and there was this guy that came over to me and you're about the same age as me, I think. He was one of these guys that had like a barbed wire tattoo around his bicep. I don't know if that was popular when you were younger. You know, those guys are always like-

• 19:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've got a couple buddies who I tease about it, for sure.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and he still had that barbed wire tattoo on his arm, but he was kind of shaped like a pear. He was a little dorky. He was losing his hair. He was kind of holding on to scraps and he came over to me and he goes, you know, that looks really good. You know, when did you start doing that? I just said, you know, a few, whatever number of years ago, it's pretty easy. I use one of these razors and I, you know, then I said to him, I go, you know, you should do it, you know, just shave your head. You look a lot better, right? Like clean, you know, clean up your look. And he kind of dropped his head and he's like, yeah, you know, I'd like to, but my wife won't let me, you know, sort of thing. And it's like, you know, this guy was probably this awesome Chad that drove a nice car, that had a cool life when he was like 22, 23 with the barbed wire tattoo and, you know, women pursued him and he got into a relationship and she said to him at some point, let's

• 19:57Speaker 02

  get married and he said, all right, let's do it. I'll do the right thing. And, you know, through the course of the entire marriage, he just got to the point where he was kind of like this fat pear shaped dork that was afraid to shave his head because his wife wouldn't let him, sort of thing. And that's what that process of the betaization of a thousand concessions sort of gets men to, where they turn him into this weak, unattractive, soft guy that she doesn't want to be with. She doesn't really want to be intimate with him and he might get, you know, something every couple of months from her. And it's just an unfortunate consequence of, of men yielding to women with everything. You know, Chris Rock made a joke about it in one of his standups. He's like, he was, you know, he said to the audience, he goes, ladies, you know, the number one reason why you hate your men is because he wasn't your first choice.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  And the entire audience erupts in laughter. And that's what these guys, you know, allow to happen to them because they, they love the woman and I believe that because, you know, when a man loves a woman, he truly wants to make her happy and he, and he does all of these things. He makes all these concessions for her. And it's unwise, like men need to learn how to say no more. They need to put their priorities and their hobbies first. A lot of men walk away from friendships because she doesn't want him around certain people for whatever reasons, because she doesn't like the hobby or she doesn't like the circle of friends, whatever it happens to be. But it's like, that's the guy that she wanted. That, that's the guy that, you know, the barbed wire tattoo guy was the guy that she wanted to be with, but she turned him into something else and he allowed it to happen. I don't blame the women. I blame the men for letting it happen.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  I think that's the right frame, you know, it's like a- as a man, so I'm forty five. I don't know how old you are, Rich, but I'm forty five, so we're probably very close. And what's ironic about this is all the things that you're saying that and and women will even say, I'm a nice guy, I want a guy who, you know, I feel safe with. No, you don't. I know you don't. Because the behavior that you're saying that is associated with nice and safe is not the behavior you're attracted to. And I'm not saying that you need to be a dick or anything like that. I I'm not. But I'm in the dating world and, you know, I mean, I I could tell a woman, hey, like, um, hey, I'm looking forward to taking you out on Tuesday night and I've got some good plans. And it's a surprise.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Here's what I want you to wear. And she's like, yes, sir. Like, like, there's no question about it. Like, and and I'll even say, like, here's what I'm wearing. Here's what I want you to wear, and I'm gonna pick you up at seven. I don't typically ask, like, oh, can I meet you there? Can I not pick me maybe? Like, no, I'm I'm gonna pick you up at seven. Here's what I'm wearing. Here's what I'd like you to wear. We're gonna have a good night, and it's gonna be a surprise. And she's all about it. But too many guys don't do that. They're like, well, what do you wanna do? What do you think? It's like, God, she's not your mommy. She doesn't even wanna be. You're trying to be nice, cuz that's what she says she wants, but her behavior says she wants a daddy, not a mommy.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Women crave that. They they crave a guy that actually makes plans. They can't stand men that that can't be decisive and make plans for a date. They hate it.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. How does that work in the confines of marriage?

• 23:04Speaker 02

  You know, like.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  No, I know, but even women say it, like.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Women are equal, right? Like, you know, they've been told for for for decades now, men and women are equal. Like, you should try to make complimentary, you know, decisions, you know, between each other when it comes to things. So it's a so guys approach a lot of dating with like, okay, well, let's go out. They probably think that they're gonna go Dutch and split the bill or something like that. And they should sort of collaborate and figure out what they would like to do. You know, do you wanna go out for dinner? Do you wanna go to the putt putt golf center afterwards or before? Like, you know, let's have a conversation about what our date should look like. But what women really want is a guy to say, picking you up at seven, taking you out for dinner, wear that black dress, and picture number three.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Easy, so easy. But, but also, I, I like this idea you're talking about it with, with equality. I mean, we're not equal, right? Equal means equal. Four is the same as four. And women are, I would say, women are equal in worth to men, but not equal in application. We're different. And if, if more people understood that, I, and look, the other side of it too is like, I'm not talking about being Andrew Tate here. Like, i- if, if the woman you're interested in says, I'm allergic to shellfish, probably don't take her out to sushi, but you can definitely take her to the steakhouse. So, you know, take, take her into consideration, whether you're married or dating, you know

• 24:26Speaker 00

  her better than anybody else, take her into consideration and then make a fucking choice already.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's not, it's not complex, man. You know, it worked for our grandfathers and great-grandfathers.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  What do you think, but, but why won't men do that? Because that is, that is, that is what I see. I don't see a whole lot of men making those choices. Like you said, it's, it's a bunch of acquiescing and then women get the ick from it, rightfully so. I love that you said, I don't blame it on women, I blame it on men. We're leaders, so if we're not gonna lead, then we're abdicating that role. Why don't men just show a little initiative? A little, a little effort? That's all it takes.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Everything that's in culture and society today, Ryan, for decades now has pussified the Western male to this soft, weak puddle of goo. And that's just what most women are dealing with. So even if he is attractive, I mean, I've talked to lots of women over the years where, you know, they've said, you know, this guy was good-looking, he was tall, he had a good job, but as soon as I went out with him, nothing. I was, I was, I was put off because he was just such a big softie. And I think that men need to tune in more to their inner asshole. I think they gotta listen to that, to that tough guy, that like machismo sort of dude that's in there somewhere that they know that women are inherently attracted to.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  And turn off all the biological program and all the cultural program that they've heard for, for decades now, dude. Like, growing up, watching sitcoms, Cosby Show, you know, Father was a butt of all jokes, Home Improvement, Father was a butt of all jokes. You go down every single sitcom that we watched growing up. Dad was a butt of all jokes. He was an absolute bumbling moron. Mum was the hero. They always laughed at his expense. Even in the commercials today, I was talking about this, um, you know, the other day, there's a radio ad that runs on a station that I listen to often. And I can't remember what the exact lyrics are, but I'll try to play it out. So something like, you know, guy goes, hey, AI, um, put, um, toothpaste on the grocery list. And then there's the female voice on the AI that comes on and she goes, got it.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Toothpaste on the grocery list and mouthwash. And he goes, I didn't say mouthwash. And then the AI female voice goes, yeah, you need mouthwash. And you're also going to listen to the station at 17 and you're going to shut up and you're going to enjoy it. And then he goes, okay, fine. No problem. You know, like he agrees with the AI, you know, female voice. And that comedy, that, you know, that little skit there is put together by marketing teams, which always portray men as a butt of all jokes. That's what sells. That's what women want to hear. And that's part of the programming that, you know, makes these men compliant, weak, soft and agreeable.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I like the idea of tuning into your inner asshole and I, and I often, I often joke about it. Like if you're a nice guy, you need to actually, and this is what I tell my guys. Tell me what you think of this. Like you need to tiptoe into asshole territory because you don't have a realistic perspective of what is nice and what is being a dick. And in order for you to figure out what's appropriate, you need to be willing to be a dick.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's 100% true, man.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  That's crazy. There's a, there's a sitcom I was trying to pull up with Roseanne Barr. What's that sitcom?

• 27:51Speaker 00

  I'm just pulling up my notes right here. Uh, what's the sitcom? It's like her and her husband. I don't know. I'll look it up here in a second, but that's one of those sitcoms where actually bucks against the system and you can't help but love the guy because he actually cares about his wife. But he also protects the people and has discipline and it's such a rarity that like actually stands out.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  What is that? I'll look for it later. Um, all right. So when you say that a guy needs to tune into his inner asshole. That sounds really good. And a lot of guys are like, yeah, I need to do that. What does that look like tactically?

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Um, in, uh, give me some context, like in what example? Cause I mean, you gotta fight every area of your life, man, work, women, friendships.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  Let's say a guy's married for 10 years. All right. He's got two and a half kids, a white picket fence. He's, you know, his wife's kind of likes him. Maybe they were high school sweethearts and she's loyal and sweet and, but not real satisfied and neither is he.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  And so, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's got to start early on and it's got to be, be maintained. But like, it's one of the concepts that I talk about in my most recent book, Top Shelf Man. And that book is more or less a guide for guys, how to manage long-term relationships and get more out of what they want in those long-term relationships. And one of the simple concepts really is just saying no more often, right? Like, like women will cook up all sorts of ideas on things to spend money on, to events to go to, for projects for you to get involved in. And like I said earlier, I think when a man loves a woman, he really tries to please her and he tries to go along to get along and happy wife, happy life sort of thing. And he tends to stamp everything just yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  You know, you can really see what a woman's made of when you tell her no, right? You know, does she throw a hissy fit? Does she get angry at you? Does she call you, I don't know, controlling or insecure or whatever it happens to be like? You know, like one of the conversations I have a lot of the time with guys is a guy will say, you know, my wife wants to go away to a bachelorette party in Las Vegas for the week and I'm not really sure how I feel about it because all of her friends are, you know, hoes or something like that. Like he'll come up with this notion that they're not the best characters to sort of be around. And I think a guy that's masculine and has frame in the relationship and she looks at him as a leader, she wouldn't even ask.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  She wouldn't ask for it?

• 30:28Speaker 02

  She wouldn't even say to him, "Look, you know, I want to go to Vegas on this date with my girlfriends, are you okay with it?" She just won't go. She'll just tell her girlfriends, you know, "You go ahead. I don't think that's a good idea for me as a married woman to go and do something like that," right? Some women will ask, some women will also tell. And I think the vast majority of women sort of err on the side of, "That's what I want to do, this is what women do, it's a girl's, you know, it's a girl's weekend, what could possibly go wrong in Vegas? You know, you're just insecure, you're just controlling," sort of thing. And when guys tend to put their foot down in an environment like that, you know, that's showing leadership and that's always best done early on. Like that's done very early on when you're kind of dating phase.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  She says something to you like, "Hey, Ryan, what are we, where are we going? You know, what is this? I want to claim you, I don't want to share you." That's when you can tell her, "Hey, look, you know, I dig your vibe too, but I don't take women seriously and I don't invite them in my life on a committed basis if they're the kind of gals that go away for girls' weekends," right? Like that's just not my thing. I'm not like, I trust the locks of my Porsche, I'm not going to park it in a lousy neighborhood overnight because I know what could possibly happen. It's the same thing, if you want me to care about you and you want me to protect you, then I'm not going to allow these sorts of things to happen. So that's always best handled very early on in the selection and dating phase. But if you've been married for five or 10 years and you want to put your foot down and tell your wife who's gone away for girls' weekends many a times that she can't do it

• 31:54Speaker 02

  anymore, she'll probably laugh in your face and do it anyway.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  And then what? What do you do?

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Well, that's just what she thinks of you. I mean, that's what she thinks of your leadership. That's what she thinks of your boundary.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  No, I mean, like, let's say, let's say I'm married for 10 years.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  You don't have a lot. You don't have many, many cards to pull at that point. Like, you're in a very bad position if, if she expresses contempt for your boundaries. You know, like I said earlier, contempt is a clock that ticks down to the end of all relationships. That's very difficult to fix. I don't think it's, it's, it's fixable in most cases.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, but so what do you do? Like, let's say I'm married for 10 years. And my wife comes to me and she's like, hey, I'm gonna go with the girls to Vegas. And I'm like, I'm not really comfortable with you going to Vegas. I prefer you to stay home and I prefer to do this. Let's, let's, you and I have a weekend. I'll come to Vegas. Like, you wanna go to Vegas? Let's do it together.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say-

• 32:44Speaker 00

  But I'm not comfortable. What do you do?

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say the go plan is the same as a stay plan. You know, you set the boundary, you put your foot down, you say you're not having it. You don't get mad at her, you don't yell at her, you don't, you know, do anything different. You just tell her, like, this is the way it's gonna be. And if you choose to do that, you're gonna come back to a house with the locks changed and your stuff on the front porch. And you have to be serious about it, follow through on it.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Men, I'm gonna step away just really quickly. If you listen to this conversation with Rich and you're feeling that, that kick in the balls, that gut check, and that maybe you've been on the pedestal side of one too many relationships or you've put her on the pedestal, I want to invite you to something really big. On Wednesday, August 12th, so that's gonna be about two and a half weeks from now, at 8:00 PM Eastern, we're running a live Iron Council preview call. This is our brotherhood, the Iron Council. It's men who will hold each other accountable, who don't let each other coast, who actually do the work instead of just talking about it. This is, this is a call, it's a no-cost call, no, no pressure, no sales tactic.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  We're just gonna give you a look at what this brotherhood- Feels like from the inside, how it runs, who's in it? And hopefully how it can change the way that you show up as a man. Maybe a father, a husband, a business owner, a community leader. But spots for the call are limited, so don't sit out on this one. Head to theironcouncil.com/preview right now and register for our August 12 preview call. Show up, guys. Find your brothers and build this life that you're supposed to be living. Again, head to theironcouncil.com/preview for our call on August 12 at 8pm Eastern. We'll see you there.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a law of deterrence, right? Like, you can't be a badass if you're just gonna flap your gums because people will test you, your woman will test you. And then when you fold, she's like, oh yeah, like, all I have to do is wait a day and he'll fold.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  That's pretty much what they think, yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 00

  That's interesting. Yeah, I think you're right. Like, again, as a man who's dating, if a woman said to me, hey, can you take me to the club? No, I'll take you to, I'll take you to a nice dinner where it's you and me and we have a little privacy and I can get to know you, you can get to know me. It's like, well, I really wanted to go to the club. I'm like, cool, go to the club with someone else. You're not going with me, though. Like, I'm not taking you to the club. I'm not gonna parade you in front of other dudes. I'm not gonna put myself in a jeopardizing situation where I have to compete with other men, where maybe I even have to be physical or violent with other men to protect you, who I don't even know. I'm good. Hard pass on that.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very simple. You know, the earlier that you set the boundaries and the firmer that you are on what you're willing to tolerate, because you get out of life what you tolerate, the more likely it is that you're gonna figure out if she's the right fit for you. But again, you know, most guys, because they have a lack of optionality, they have a lack of abundance, they'll, they'll do anything to go along to get along and they'll legitimately drive. I mean, that's why you have this phenomenon today, which is just wild to me, where you see these guys who just fall for cuckoldry and hot wifing and, you know, women who want to introduce some guy named Tyrone to the bedroom while he sits in the corner and watches it all. And fold in front of them and and they go along with it, right? It's like I I still can't

• 36:10Speaker 02

  believe to this day that these men actually exist, but there's an abundance of them out there. And they just do it because they think that she'll be happy with it and that she'll like him more or that she'll give him more of what he wants.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  I actually saw a study, it's like a week or two ago, that said, the category of pornography that continues to increase is just what you said, cuckoldry.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Like, guys are actively searching out being a cuck to Tyrone or whoever else it might be. That's crazy.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  You know, like in the past, polygyny was the thing where, you know, women would be okay with sharing a man. Now it's seems like we flipped it upside down and it's like, you know, guys are okay with sharing a woman because it's all they can get. It's the best they can get for some of these guys. Not all, but some of these guys. And I think, you know, in some instances, some of these guys think that it'll save their marriage. I've never, I've never seen a guy yielding to cuckoldry save his marriage.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, quite the opposite, actually. Like, the amount of, and I'm in Southern Utah, the amount of, it's actually pretty wild to me. It's a, it's a very, it's a very swinging culture here. It's, it's crazy to me. And people will say.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Is it one of her doing it? Or is it?

• 37:34Speaker 00

  Oh, Mormon, it's everybody. Mormon, a lot of times it's ex Mormons, right? So they grew up in the church and then they left it, you know, 25 because of whatever, which I would say was, would be a good decision. But they leave and then they go, it's the preacher's daughter scenario, right? And they go crazy. And then you have these people, it's very prolific here. It's like you have these people who are just openly swinging as if the relationship is going to be better. I'm like, there's, I've never heard of a healthy relationship when you start introducing other people into the bedroom. I've never in my life heard of that. I've been on this planet for almost 50 years now.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  No, it's over at that point for the most part.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  Hmm. Uh, to go back to your book, when you talk about being a top shelf man, sometimes I think, and you probably get this, that people think, well, you're just, it's machismo, it's, it's toxic masculinity, it's arrogant. I'm sure you've heard worse.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  What do you say to somebody like that?

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Okay. You know, that's your opinion. You're wrong.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  Why are they wrong?

• 38:45Speaker 02

  You know, I've, I've kind of gotten to the point, because I've been doing this for over twelve years now. It's like, you know, I've learned that people don't usually want to hear your opinion. They want to hear their opinions come out of your mouth.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  Good point. Good point.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  You know, and it, you know, if somebody's going to argue with me about a point that I've made, or something that I'm confident in, or, or, or a, a, a value that I've established is actually true. I mean, I'll respond to it and I'll tell them, you know, like, I might say something like, um, you know, do you want to hear the honest truth? Like, you know, do you really want to hear my opinion? And yeah, you know, tell them, okay, then I'll tell you the answer. You're not going to like it. And they usually don't, but it gives them something to chew on, right? Like, I know what women respond to. I know what women don't respond to.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  I was the guy that was on all sides of the equation on the sexual marketplace, the alpha seed, the beta, the beta need. Like, I've been on both sides, so I know what, what women do like and what they don't like. Um, and oftentimes, you know, women will say things to us, and they'll, I don't know, they'll blanket it in something like toxic masculinity, or whatever it is that it happens to be. We'll just use that as an example. But there's really no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's just masculinity, right? They only call it toxic when it doesn't serve a narrative that, that, that they like. And when it serves a narrative that they like, like, oh my God, there was a hurricane that came through and everything flooded, and all of these men came in and saved people.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  It's manliness at that point.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  And that's not toxic masculinity. That's, you know, that's a real man, you know, sort of thing. And it's like, well, that comes with a guy that also says no to you, right?

• 40:25Speaker 00

  How do you, yes, I agree. How do you help a woman give up some of that masculine frame when she's been conditioned at this point, from the time she was a little girl, including her mom running the house?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you just have to...

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Putting on the pants of the house, you know, putting on the pants. Like, how do you, how do you help her feel comfortable where she can start letting go and actually being feminine?

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it can take some work. I mean, it can take months or years of work. I mean, if you're committed to the relationship with the woman and you think that she's a good fit and she kind of ticks off most of your boxes and she's got a lot of green flags and no red flags and you want to spend the time on it. And it's just, you know, soundbites like, "Don't talk to me that way," you know, sort of thing. Or, you know, like, something along those lines. But violence, raising your voice, making statements that, you know, throwing words out that you can't take back. It's like, you know, one of those things, sometimes it's one of the best things that ever happen to women is when you make a statement or you use the C-word. You know, you get so bent out of shape, you're, you know, your feathers ruffled so badly that you drop the C-word, you call her a bitch or something like that.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  It's like, once you've done that, you've lost all the frame in the relationship. I don't argue with women. It's like, if they start doing something or say something that I'm not in alignment with, I just don't partake. I just turn around and I walk the other way, right? And they learn real, real quick what I'm about. And if they're going to stick around and they want to be with me, then they're going to put up with my boundaries. And if they're not, then they're going to go the other way. And that's okay, I'll just replace them with somebody else because I have abundance.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like the abundance versus scarcity mentality. And I also appreciate your energy. Like, I can actually see it, we're not even arguing. And I can see that your energy is very calm, it's cool, it's collected. It's like, I mean, I could probably say things that I could try to get you riled up. I don't have any reason to, but I can't imagine that you would. And that's the energy I think more men can come with. Like, it doesn't matter what you say to me, you can't penetrate. My, my well-being, my psyche, how I feel about myself. It's a very powerful, it's very attractive too, to a woman, to anybody actually, women and men.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Attractive, yeah, they, they, like, all of this really just like boils down, you know, going back to the point of the competency test or the shit test is, as it's often known, is like, women test men to see what they're made of. And they'll try to get away with things with you to see what you're made of, right? Because they're trying to figure out, like, like, who is this guy? And what you'll find is, once you kind of go through a few of these, you know, for a little while, they happen less and less, they don't happen as much, and if they do happen, and you do put your foot down in the same consistency that you have in the past, she'll usually come back and re-enter your frame pretty quickly. You know, I often tell guys, you want a woman that, that can self-reflect and take a little bit of accountability.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  I don't think you should try to force accountability down women's throat, it's very difficult, it's like, like, uh, oil and water. Um, but I think you're doing pretty good if you get a woman that says something along the lines of, um, you know, Ryan, you're right, I was being a brat, I apologize. Um, that makes total sense, right? Like, if you can get a woman to get to that point, you're doing really well, even like half of that point, you're doing really well.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  Do you feel like, when you say things like this, that people equate it with any sort of nefariousness or manipulation?

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's what they'll try to do, they'll say, oh, well, you're gaslighting me, or you're, or you're manipulating me, it's like, no.

• 44:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  This is who I am, this is my boundary, if you have a problem with that, then I'm sure there's a guy out there that might be a better fit for you.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  And you mean that?

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, a hundred percent. You can go, uh, I mean, you know, the door's open, you can, you can leave, but it'll be locked if you try to come back through it.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Okay, so then, how do you create? So let's look at it from two different scenarios, because, I mean, we, when, when guys listen, we've got two different camps from the context we're talking about, right? We've got guys who maybe are single, they're young, they're dating, they're looking for their wife, and then we've got a whole other cadre of men who are married, and they've already committed to somebody, and so we have to look at it from both lenses. Um, how do you create that abundance where it's like, hey, if she walks, I'm gonna be fine in each of those categories?

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Did you ever see the stand-up comic bit with Patrice O'Neal on the fishing boat?

• 45:00Speaker 00

  Maybe, I don't think so. Maybe once you say it, I'll know it, but I don't know it right offhand.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, look it up. I mean, I'm gonna butcher it here, but basically, you know, what he says is like, you know, women want a guy that can fish and knows how to catch fish. And the bit is something along the lines of, you know, you have a fishing boat, you go out, you catch fish, you take a picture of the fish, so you can show it to people and let them know that you can catch fish, and then you kind of like let the fish go. At some point, though, you know, a fish will hop back on the boat and want you to take it home because it prefers, you know, your boat and your lifestyle to the cold, dark ocean. But the problem with that is that they usually at some point sort of turn around and they'll go, well, you know, we've been together for a while, why do you still have a boat? And the answer to that is, so you know I can catch fish.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  So I don't think that men should relinquish their, you know, their skills when it comes to things like game.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  There's three itties that I talked about in The Top Shelf Men. There's proximity, there's familiarity, and there's exclusivity. The one that most guys have the most difficulty with is the exclusivity part, and it boils down to sexual exclusivity. And you can give a woman commitment and exclusivity on a separate basis, if you know what I'm saying. I think that you can give a woman 100% of your commitment, but 99% of your sexual exclusivity. I think they have to know that you can catch fish. Whether you choose to catch fish or not is entirely up to you, but I think that if you give them full assurance and exclusivity, you're doing yourself a disservice.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  It's a fact that I'll, you know, it's a hill that I'll die on. Whether you choose to indulge or not, it might involve you being a little bit flirtatious, you know, with the waitress when she comes and takes your order in front of your girlfriend or your wife. You don't necessarily, you know, have to act on it to prove a point. Uh, but indulging in some of the banter or some of the game lets her know that you have the capacity to catch fish. You know, if you know what I'm saying here.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  That's interesting. So, okay, so I, I think, I would think just from my position that once you start, look flirting, it's inevitable, right? If I, if, if I was in an exclusive relationship and I saw a woman and she was cute, I would do, I'd probably, if she was my waitress, I would probably engage in some harmless flirting. I, I don't think you can really escape that. But I think once you start deliberately doing it, you, you are crossing the line. That's how I feel. But that being said,

• 47:35Speaker 00

  there's nothing to say that I can't continue to dress. I mean, you've got great style. There's nothing to say that I couldn't continue to dress in a way that makes me attractive. Or I can't, um, drive the nicest car that, that I can or have a desire to, and I keep it clean and that I smell good. And that I've got my things on lock and that I, I walk with the energy of, of confidence because I'm competent in what I do. That's just making yourself the best man possible, whether you want to be in that single committed relationship or not. Like, why wouldn't you do that?

• 48:09Speaker 02

  It's, it's manhood 101. Like, why wouldn't you want to maintain the best version of yourself? A lot of guys get lazy, fat and sloppy because they're sitting around watching sports all the time, doing nothing, eating crappy food. And, you know, women do it too, but you're not going to control anybody else. The only part of the universe that, you know, that you can control is yourself. So I think that if you maintain a level of masculine excellence, so that you're at or in as close proximity to the top shelf as possible, you will be recognized. Like, your reputation will lead before you enter a room. People will acknowledge you. They'll, they'll be interested in you because of who you are, what you look like. You know, um, there's these seven spokes that I talk about in my book as well, the seven spokes of a high value man. And I create this assessment test and everything with it.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  But leveling up on those seven spokes is, is generally what keeps women attracted to you and keeps them around you. And when you start getting lazy in those areas, or you don't really care about doing the work in those areas, you just don't look as good to her, the one that you're with, and anybody else. Like, The surest way to keep a woman around, as silly as this sound, like, women want what other women want, right? Like, the fastest, easiest way for a woman to assess a man's value is if there's other beautiful women around that man. They don't have to do the work, they don't have to sniff them out, they don't have to think about it because they already see beautiful women that have already pre-selected him. So, that, that element of attraction and that glue that keeps women to you, I think

• 49:35Speaker 02

  it's important to maintain. It's easier for guys like us to do stuff like that because, I mean, you know, you just do a couple of posts on social media, you drop a few pictures, people see who you are, you dress well, there's maybe a couple of gals that come along and they like your stuff, or they'll throw a comment on it, "Hey, you look good in that photograph," or something like that. That's, that's plenty to remind your gal that you're a man that other men want to be and other women want to be with.

• 50:01Speaker 00

  Hmm. I think the danger in that, though, is where you start doing that for other women, because they will sniff that out immediately. And then that's no longer powerful. You just gave way, you were doing it so well, and then you did it for a woman, and it just lost all of its potency.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  No, all of it is done for yourself, you know, you, you do it explicitly for yourself. That's where people get confused, like, "Oh, well, you're, um, what have I heard? Sound bites or lines or something like, that's what pussy beggars do, or you're some kind of a pick-up artist or something like that." And it's like, no, you're not very smart if you don't see the code here, because I'm literally pointing to the facts here, right? You're doing this for yourself, you're not doing this to, like, chase women, right? The opposite is true, like, when you, again, have ascended to the top shelf or in as close proximity to that as possible, women notice you, because other women notice you and other men want to be you. So, it's, it's, it's this, like, self, self-fulfilling sort of prophecy, it sort of feeds itself, if you know what I mean.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  I had this really interesting experience a year or so ago, and I was in a restaurant with a couple of friends, we were hanging out, and I saw this, this woman, and she was attractive. And I'm like, "Man, I gotta figure out a way, a way," she was with her mom, what I, who I assumed was her mom. And I'm like, "Man, I gotta figure out a way to, like, approach this woman." And I noticed her, like, getting up, gathering her check, going to the front, I'm like, "Ah, man," we were getting up at about the same time. And I just grabbed, I grabbed a napkin and I just wrote on it like, hey, you caught my eye earlier. You're really beautiful. Um, I just wanted to tell you that. My name's Ryan.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  And I just wrote my number down and I ran, I kind of like jogged out to the parking lot. I'm like, excuse me, excuse me. I said, you dropped this and I gave it to her and then I walked away and, and the guys I was with are like, what's that all about? I'm like, ah, don't worry about it. And we get in the car and I see her car pulled out and her mom waves at me.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  And, and then I get a text later that, that evening from her and she's like, yeah, you caught my eye too. And it's like, man, like it's so, and we had a good text conversation. She was visiting, I was visiting. It didn't work out. Nothing worked out. We never met up or anything like that.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  But it's so easy if you could just have a little bit of game, a little bit of play, a little bit of fun. I have a really close friend. His name's Keith Yacke. He was on the podcast last week and he talks about it. Exactly what you're saying. It's this, what he calls is the player dial. Where it's like, hey, can you have fun? Can you flirt? Can you be him? Can you be that guy? And it, whether you're married or not, like even your wife wants you to be the player that she married, that you haven't been for 15 years.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  There, there's, um, I mean, that's the bit on the fishing boat that Patrice O'Neal talks about, right? Like that's, like that's a capability to catch fish, right?

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I just, are you familiar with Orion Terban and his work?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a good friend of mine, man. He spoke at my conference the last two years in a room.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  That guy, I love his analogy of saying, hey, you're, you're the captain of the boat. And the captain of the boat's responsibility is to figure out where the boat's going. And then all the passengers, which are the women, then go to the shore and they're like, well, that captain's going here and that captain's going there and that captain's going here. Which one is going where I want to go and which one, if there's multiple, can actually get me their competency? And then she just chooses based on partly what you said is, are there a bunch of other passengers clamoring to get on that boat?

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, um, Terban's great, man. Like his book, The Value of Others, especially the second.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  So good. I've got it right here.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have, we have very similar opinions on, on, um, you know, dealing with the sexual marketplace for sure.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Do you feel like with Orion and others, there's a, there's a line between doing this in a healthy way, but I also sometimes feel like I catch some tons of bitterness or contention with him and, and other people as well.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I get that a lot. Um, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure he hears it from time to time too, but you know, uh, the truth will sound like hate to those that hate the truth at the end of the day, right? And it's like, I, you know, I really don't care about the opinions of others. I don't, I'm not going to change my views and my values just because something I say or do isn't in full alignment with somebody other, with somebody else's value system. I'm not here to, to mirror back your exact values. Like I, I just tell you the truth. I know it works and what doesn't work. And that's what I've been about. And if you don't like it, that's cool. You know, we can part as friends.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that's not really what I'm asking. So let me clarify just a little bit more. I, I'm wondering if there's a point at, at, at which we take what we're talking about today. And let's just use the analogy of the fish where it's no longer about catching the fish. It's no longer about that. It's like, I have this disdain for fish and I'm going to make it miserable for the fish I'm trying to catch. Like, do you feel like it's at some point crosses that line? Cause I see that in the quote unquote manosphere where people are like, women are bitches and all women are this and that. I'm like, hold up, chill for a second. Like, I think that says more about you than it does about them.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think a good portion of guys actually get there where it's like blackpilling for them, where they get to this point of nihilism where, you know, how are you ever going to compete with a woman? I mean, if Tom Brady couldn't do it, what do you think your chances are? If, if Brad Pitt can't do it, then how the hell are you going to do it? Sort of thing like, hypergamy is undefeated, or you know, whatever line or narrative that they use, you know, like all women are the same now, sort of thing. And it's like, the vast majority of women are probably not a good fit for the vast majority of, of, of guys up there. And that's fine. And that's why I advocate, you know, for the abundance and, you know, like, most of your problems as a guy, when it comes to dealing with women, can be resolved in a selection phase when you're dating, when you've got a lot of abundance and optionality,

• 56:20Speaker 02

  and you reject the wrong kind of women. That's why I often talk about the 21 red flags and seeking the 16 green flags that, you know, surround the bright triad traits, you know. You want to look for women that are a good fit, that are aligned with your purpose and your goals. And people as well, friends, you know, colleagues, people that you're going to collaborate with, you know, that are open to the ideas. And we don't necessarily have to agree. I mean, I'm sure there's lots of things that you and I won't agree on, Ryan, you know, if we were to sat down and, you know, have a beer and a dinner sort of thing. But we can have an open conversation about it, hear each other out, and, you know, sort of leave that evening in some areas to disagree and have some agreements. And that's fine. And that's how men should operate. That's how good calibrated people should operate,

• 57:05Speaker 02

  I think, anyway. But that's just not how the world goes. Everybody wants to be offended today. They want, you know, like I said earlier, I don't think people want to hear new opinions. They want to hear their opinions come out of your mouth, sort of thing. So you will get painted that way from time to time. But never go black pill. Like, never get to the point where it's like, oh, women are bitches, sort of thing. It's like, yeah, you know, I get it. There's a lot of pretty crappy women out there. Just reject them. You know, you don't invite them into your life. You don't participate in, you know, you don't get into the mud and roll around with the pigs, right? Like, you spend time with the better ones. And it's going to be tough. I mean, you're going to have to dig through a lot of dirt to find gold. That's just the way that it is.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I don't, I don't, I actually, I understand the sentiment of what you're saying. I don't even consider that. I just consider it like, hey, is this a compatible person with me? You know, and it's, it's as objective as I possibly can make it. The hard part is when she's beautiful. You are so beautiful, and yet, I don't like you.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why you gotta look past her beauty, man.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  What's the other?

• 58:09Speaker 02

  That's why you gotta look past her beauty. Like, if you actually boil it down, beauty is very common. I mean, you can go to Instagram right now and search hashtag fitness girl, and you'll get page after page, like, hundreds of thousands of pages of exceptionally beautiful women. A lot of them are going to be absolute train wrecks, you know, holding out, you know, the best version of themselves on, on social media. It's like a highlight reel of the perfect life. And, you know, you get to know them and they're a total train wreck. And, you know, I think beauty is common, but I think that, that, that men that are at or near the top shelf is, is more rare. So, you know, when they say that men are the prize, I don't think all men are the prize, but I think that there are a contingent of men out there that have done a considerable amount of work, you know, taken ownership, you

• 58:50Speaker 02

  know, they've leveled themselves up, um, that, that should be very discerning in their tastes. Like I said earlier, I think a lot of men's problems with relationships and women can be resolved in the selection phase.

• 59:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, agreed. Okay. So you talked a little bit about the 21 red flags and I think you said 16 green flags. As far as the red flags go, um, are there a couple that come to mind that are, that are very difficult? Like, if she has, if she has an attitude, I mean, that's a red flag and everybody can see it. Like, I don't need to really read too much into that. But are there some red flags that are really challenging or difficult to observe and to internalize?

• 59:29Speaker 02

  Um, I think most guys inherently know them. I mean, I can, you know, read a few off. There's women with daddy issues, feminists, there's women that are, that are always unhappy and unlucky in areas of life, you know, women that compete with you, you know, we talked about that earlier before we went live. Violent women, women that have extreme jealousy issues, party girls. Uh, I think women covered in tattoos, women with giant notch counts should be avoided. Um, you know, women that seek validation online on social media by posting salacious photographs, women that throw

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  What's the tattoo thing? Tell me about that, because that's increasingly common. What's the tattoo thing?

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, 38% of women have tattoos now. Um, there was a podcast that I did, um, about a year ago. I can't remember all the details, but, um, there was seven studies, um, that were done on women and tattoos. And they all say the exact same thing. They're extremely desire, like undesirable, uh, traits that come with women that are heavily tattooed. I'll use a very clear example. A buddy of mine was an, is a ER doctor and, um, one of the things that he would have a lot of women walking in to get tests for was STDs. And he was telling me one time, you know, your, you know, your take on tattoos is absolutely right. He goes, the vast majority of women that come in for STD tests, they're covered in tattoos.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Hmm, right, like they're more promiscuous, they were more difficult to deal with. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, tattooing is a very masculine pursuit. And, you know, it's kind of funny, I was talking to Elliot Hulse about this at one time. We did a collab on his channel, he was telling me about his theory on tattoos and he was like, it kind of disgusts him because, you know, when you sit there and think about it, it requires a man usually, sitting in a chair to penetrate her body over and over again with a pen and ink, you know, to mark it up with this tattoo. It's just not a desirable trait. And from the optics of, like, beauty, I think it's classless. It's like putting bumper stickers all over a Lamborghini. A Lamborghini is a beautiful car and just randomly dropping, you know, stickers all over it, in my opinion, is the same thing as a woman tattooing her body.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  I think a woman's body is a beautiful thing and tattooing it just makes it ugly.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  I, I mean, it's hard for me to argue with that. I, I don't, I don't know if I would go so far as to say it's a masculine thing. I get the penetration concept, I think that's a bit of a stretch, to be honest. But, um, but, but both men and women decorate themselves to make themselves more attractive or to make statements, so I don't, I don't know if it's masculine or feminine. But, yeah, I would agree, it's like, you're a beautiful woman, like, like, be beautiful by yourself. I don't even have, I don't have any tattoos personally.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  Me neither.

• 1:02:08Speaker 00

  Because I have skin and my skin's awesome. And I can't think of anything that I want to put on my skin that I think that'll look really cool when I'm 80 years old, I don't think it will.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. A lot of it doesn't make a lot of sense, like, there's so much randomness to it. It's like, you know, I was at this restaurant the other day and my server comes up and she's got, you know, a tank top because it's outside in the summertime and it's like, the sun over here, the moon over here, a Lamborghini Countach over here, a flower pot over here, some other random shit over here. And it's like, you know, it's like your four-year-old when they get their hands on a sticker book and they just put stickers all over their body sort of thing, like, that's what it looks like to me now.

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that and again, I agree on that. And the other side of it too is tattoos used to be rebellious. Like when you saw a guy or or a woman, even more so for a woman with a tattoo, you're like, oh, she's a rebel, or he's a rebel. And now, the guy without a tattoo, or the woman without a tattoo, is culturally a rebel.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Interesting. What a so, okay, so, green flags. Give me, give me two or three green flags a guy to look for, or cultivate.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  I think I think a really obvious one would be, what does she do when you get sick? Like, does she want to care for you? Does she want to nurse you back to health?

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  That's good. I never thought about that.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Another really good one is I think that that a that a bright green flag would be a woman that like genuinely wants to form a connection with your family, your children, you know, whatever that happens to be, right? Like, they'll go out of their way to form a connection and be useful and and, you know, develop a relationship that is just easy and it sort of flows, right? Versus like, oh, your mom's such a bitch, and why is she so controlling? Like, we've all been with a chick like that at some point. And there's also women out that would be like, you know, your mom's kind of old and she's tired. So let me cook dinner for the family on Sunday when they all come over, sort of thing. Like, I think that's definitely like one of the green flags that are on my list.

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  I I I went out with a woman a couple of times, and there was this green flag I'd never considered before. Tell me what you think about this. But we had went on a, I think we had went on a date, maybe a dinner date, and she was going to come over to my place for the afternoon. And when she came over, she brought these cupcakes with these candles, and it was number 11, because she knew that I was that week celebrating 11 years of doing this podcast.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Nice. Yeah, that's exactly what you want.

• 1:04:39Speaker 00

  That's, oh, my gosh, like, that was such a turn on. That alone, I was like, okay, there's something about her. She's coming over with a gift. She knows what I'm doing. It's important. She's being nurturing. Man, that was a huge, huge green flag for me.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, you want to look for women that find a way to infuse themselves into your life and be useful. It's like, I don't know why this is so contentious for so many women today. Like, you know, God forbid they do anything for the express pleasure of a man. I mean, feminism tells women never to do any of that stuff.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, like make a sandwich. I'm like, damn, if you made a sandwich for me, I'd really appreciate it.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  And ask me what I want on the sandwich.

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  Totally. What's the, why is that a, you made me a sandwich? Why is that a bad thing? Like, I took you to dinner. Why is that a bad thing? It's not. So.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I want to, like, I want a chick that's like, hey, you know, have you eaten yet? Hey, Rich, you know, I bought you these boxers the other day when I was at the store. Hey, Rich, 700 horsepower is totally reasonable for a family car.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  I, I do, okay, so I take a little bit of issue with you saying chick.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Like, I don't, I don't like that term. I don't even like calling women girls. Is it just semantics or like?

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  It's just semantics, you know, we always called them chicks growing up. So it's just a word that's in my lingo.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Fair enough. Yeah, I just, I, I, and that might be a sticking point for me. You guys will be like, oh yeah, this girl I like. I'm like, you're 50 years old, dude. She's not a girl. She's a woman.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  Fair enough. Fair enough. Tell me about the book, man, and then we'll wrap things up today.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I got two books. Uh, The Unplugged Alpha was published in 2019. It's kind of a easy path into, you know, the concept of unplugging. The title's The Unplugged Alpha. Uh, the second one that I recently put out last October is called Top Shelf Man. And that's kind of a deeper dive down the rabbit hole. It's a little more advanced. It sort of deals more with, um, the maintenance phase of relationships and getting more out of what you want from relationships as men. At the same time, you know, get it like, when you get more of what you want as a guy, believe it or not, you actually give her more of what she wants. You know, you give her the attraction that she wants with the guy. She gets more of the things that make her happy in the relationship. So I talk about a lot of that. I talk about wealth creation methods.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  There's a chapter in there that describes that Becky avatar, which is like the modern woman, kind of the gal that you talked about earlier. Who's, yeah, got tattoos, wants to roll in jujitsu and shoot guns. Like, that's your, that's your typical Becky, you know, the boss girl. Um, so there's a lot of good stuff in that book that I think men, once they sort of open up their mind to the idea and the concepts that I talk about, will help them get more out of what they want over the long term with gals.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  I'm gonna sync it all up. Where do the guys connect with you, man?

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Uh, it's all centralized on my website, just richcooper.ca.

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  Cool. We'll sync it all up. I'll make the book available. We'll get guys the social media handles. Rich, I appreciate you, man. I think sometimes from, from the perspective, when I first found you, I was actually like, ah, who's this guy?

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Oh, I know, I know.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  You know, you know what you're doing. But then I started digging in, I'm like, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's accurate. Yep, he's right about that one. And so I'm glad that, uh, I'm glad that we're connected. I'm glad that we're friends and I'm glad you joined me today, man. Appreciate it.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. It's been a good chat. I mean, you ever need anything again in the future, you know where to find me, brother.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Thanks, brother.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  Thanks, man.

• 1:08:04Speaker 00

  We're going to close it out today because we've got another incredible conversation that we're happening and taking place next week. We've also got our Ask Me Anything that takes place tomorrow. And then we've got our Friday Field Notes that takes place, of course, on Friday. But if you resonated with this conversation, you enjoy what Rich had to say, please check out his two books, specifically his latest one, The Top Shelf Men: How the Top 5% of Men Build Their Wealth, Live Life on Their Terms, and Keep High Value Women. I do not think you'll be disappointed. Also, make sure, make sure to check out our preview call on August 12th at 8:00 PM Eastern. Head to theironcouncil.com/preview. All right,

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything. Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man Podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.