Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher Wicked’s Cynthia Erivo on Defying Gravity, the Attack on Diversity and (Maybe) Getting an EGOT About this episode Is it strange that Wicked, a film about a marginalized person discovering her magic and rising up to fight against government oppression, has been a box office success under Trump 2.0 – or does the movie's message actually meet the moment? Wicked has been nominated for 10 Oscars, including Best Actress in a Leading Role for Cynthia Erivo, who already has Grammy, Emmy and Tony awards under her belt. This week, Kara talks with Erivo about why, as a queer, Black woman, the role of Elphaba was especially meaningful and how she made it her own; what she thinks about the current attack on diversity programs and the LGBTQ+ community; which projects she wants to lend her voice and other talents to going forward; and what becoming the youngest EGOT winner (if she wins the Oscar) would mean to her.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kara Swisher? She seems frozen. Me frozen? Yeah, you're frozen. Yeah, that's a different movie.
0:18 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is singer, actor, producer Cynthia Erivo, also known as Elphaba, the star of Wicked, also known as one of the hottest multi-talents in Hollywood right now. I love Wicked. I talk about it all the time. I saw it when it was first on Broadway. I thought they did a spectacular version on the screen. It's making a ton of money. It's a great business. And at the dead hot center of it is Cynthia Erivo, who is just memorable and spectacular in the role she's playing. Her rise to Wicked fame seems meteoric, if you haven't been paying attention. She's been a name in the musical world since her Broadway debut as Seeley in the 2015 revival
1:02 Kara Swisher? of The Color Purple, which I also saw. She blew away the audience. She, of course, won a Tony for that performance in 2016, and a Grammy, and a Daytime Emmy in 2017. So if you're keeping track, she's just an O short of an EGOT. Erivo almost landed that Oscar in 2020, when she got two nominations for playing Harriet Tubman in Harriet, one for Best Actress, and the other for Best Original Song. Erivo co-wrote and performed this film's anthem, Stand Up, and she's got another shot at Best Actress and the EGOT for her role as Elphaba in Wicked. Don't tell anybody, but I'm voting for her. Not that I can vote. It's an interesting role, of course, in what is obviously a crazy time. It's about
1:44 Kara Swisher? someone who's the other, who's left out, who is persecuted, who is subject to misinformation. Does that sound like any country right now in this world? It sounds like the United States of America, and she is, in a lot of ways, the resistance, the idea that you can be different and still be worthwhile. You know, it's really kind of interesting that it's making a lot of money and is one of the top grossing films of the year when we're in the midst of what's It seems like a huge cultural meltdown on those issues. Areva has been very open about how she sees the role, especially as a queer black woman, a British citizen from Nigerian parents. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
2:23 Kara Swisher? I'm just a fan, so is my daughter Clara, about art imitating life, imitating art and more. Stay with us.
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3:26 Kara Swisher? Cynthia, welcome. Thanks for being on On.
3:29 Speaker 02 Thank you for having me, Kara.
3:30 Kara Swisher? So let's just start first with Wicked. There's a lot I want to talk to you about, being an artist, singing, Hollywood, et cetera. Though I am a lesbian, I will not be talking about holding your space because I'm not that lesbian.
3:41 Speaker 02 Thank you.
3:42 Kara Swisher? If you don't mind.
3:45 Kara Swisher? I'm kind of a gay man, so let's start from there.
3:48 Speaker 02 Perfect.
3:49 Kara Swisher? So let's start with Wicked, though. I took my daughter, I have four kids, I took my only one daughter, but I took her and loved it, by the way, and she adores you and Ariana Grande and had a wonderful time. And my son, my little son wants to watch it too now. I'm just curious, where was the first time you saw the musical? I think you were in your twenties, is that correct?
4:09 Speaker 02 I was 25 and I saw it in London. I took myself on a solo date. I knew music before I knew the show. So after having learned music, after leaving drum school and essentially being able to afford tickets to go and see. I took myself to see Wicked for my birthday. Yeah.
4:30 Kara Swisher? And just what did you think at the time? I saw it when it first was on Broadway, actually.
4:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
4:36 Kara Swisher? When it was first there, like twenty five years ago.
4:38 Speaker 02 I don't know why, but it it really moved me. I came away from it, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I think it was, it was particularly that character, Elphaba. Um, I think maybe seeing the songs in situ sort of woke something up in my, my brain. It was just the first time I'd seen a story about, one, two women in, in a relationship, because that's not, never a story that you see. And then, two, about a person who just doesn't fit. On top of which, it was to do with her skin color. So I just was just sort of, um, taken by it. Yeah.
5:16 Kara Swisher? I interviewed Wicked director John Chu back in November, and he talked about how much he valued input from both you and Ariana Grande. Um, in the choreography for the Oz Dust Ballroom, for example, obviously that dance, um, he said was all you and how you did it and how you wanted it done. How do you think about the experience of that kind of artistic collaboration? How you choose the things you want to work on?
5:38 Speaker 02 I, I love it. I think it's, um, kind of important. I think something happens when a director trusts an actor. And that's not to say that everyone, you always have to have your input. That's not to say that, it's just that with, when your director trusts that you know when it's necessary or they trust that what you have to say will, um, enhance something. For some reason, it, there's an element of freedom within that. Because you immediately know that you're trusted. So you can play a little more, you can make mistakes and, and try again and try things over and over. And I think because John sort of gave me a little bit of room to play
6:23 Speaker 02 and to, to influence the way she looked and the way she moved. It meant that I could really own her as the character for myself. Um, and so.
6:37 Speaker 02 I could speak for her when we were discussing things, or actually, I think Elphaba might do this, or she might speak up for herself in this moment, or she might actually just be really quiet here. You know, and and it meant that we had this ongoing, growing, creative relationship, not just for the piece as a whole, but for the small, tiny, minute details that each person might have. And particularly for me, I'm a details girl. I like all of the little, if I can find out, why does she have these two rings? Or can she have an earring? Or can she, is it necessary for her to have jewelry? Or can can she dress like this in a certain way? Can this be more tailored? And can she wear her hair like this? And if she wore glasses, they would be like this.
7:21 Speaker 02 And those little tiny things that make the character uh three dimensional, as opposed to a two D picture that you see. I think those things bring it to life, not just for the people watching, but for me. Now this person is real and human, you know?
7:35 Kara Swisher? So in that scene, for example, I think you were going for dignity, right? In the face of mockery, presumably.
7:41 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:41 Kara Swisher? And and how you move the hat and put it on and affixed it. Uh, I look, he was talking about the dance and how you held it in different spots. Uh, it was critically important to that scene. Because it was painful to watch and yet also dignified and weird.
7:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, because I, I, when I had gone in to start rehearsing for the dance, there was already a dance that had been choreographed uh by Christopher Scott and Comfort Fidoku. And I, it was really lovely. It just didn't feel like the language she spoke. So I asked if it was possible for us to sort of go back to the drawing board and begin again and create something that felt more like her. Um, and Christopher and Comfort kindly said, yes. So we started figuring out how she moved. And instead of it being sort of a moment for laughter, it wasn't that I was wanted to take the laughter out, it's just that I wanted to make sure that.
8:41 Speaker 02 There was a reason for her to do this dance. So she took that hat off. What in that dance makes her put it back on? This hat is is the source of embarrassment and shame. Then why would she put it back on again? And if she's standing in the middle of the circle, why does she not just walk out? Why does she stay to to do this dance? And for me, I felt like that dance was a sort of reclamation of of the room she was in and and to take back the uh the way in which people would scorn her. So if you you scorn me, but I know I'm supposed to be here.
9:23 Speaker 02 So I'm going to own this space right here, even though you would have me not be here.
9:28 Kara Swisher? Yeah, it was a pivot moment in the movie. It absolutely was was a pivot.
9:32 Speaker 02 It's like a moment where she stops trying to appease people and just be honest herself. I'll be alone and I'll be okay with being alone. Um, and so we we figured out how that would work and I felt like this was maybe the beginning of a spell. Like maybe the first time she tries to conjure something, which is why if you put power into this hat, which becomes the emblem of the wicked witch, there's a reason to put it back on. Sort of we we wash away what that hat was, the embarrassment of it, the way people see her in it, and we make it something that is imbued with with power and magic.
10:15 Kara Swisher? Right.
10:16 Speaker 02 Oh, there's a pride in wearing it.
10:18 Kara Swisher? Because until then, one of the obvious themes is an outsider and being invisible to the mainstream or mocked if you're noticed, right? One of the things you did was, I know it sounds crazy, I watched it again the other night, but you looked down a lot in the movie with your eyes. But it's not looked down in shame, it's sort of looked down in defiance, which was interesting. And I I maybe you weren't, maybe that was just me reading into it. But I want to talk about the, what was the mood you were going for for this character?
10:43 Speaker 02 Um, I I don't think I was trying to hide. I actually think she. It's defence, it's like getting there before everybody else does. There is defiance in it in that she is not trying to hide herself from anyone. And it's a resistance against what people would have other people believe about you.
11:05 Kara Swisher? I don't believe this about myself. If you believe it, that's fine, but I don't believe this.
11:09 Speaker 02 And I think it's so interesting, because I I do think that there's a slight weariness in Elphedra, because it's sort of something that she's known her whole life. Constant mockery, the constant making fun of her.
11:21 Kara Swisher? Yeah, you're waiting for the hit.
11:23 Speaker 02 She's always like waiting for, it's like a quiet anxiety that someone's going to say something all the time. Um, she tries to get there just before someone does say something. But also, I wanted her to have a little joy. I really, I wanted her to have hope. Because you can't get to the uncomfortability and the heartbreak of the Ozdast scene if there isn't hope beforehand. If she's already in that space, if she's already in the hurt.
11:54 Kara Swisher? Given up, yeah.
11:54 Speaker 02 If she's already given up, then what's the point in her even turning up to the Ozdast forum? What's the point in her even putting that hat on and leaving her dorm room to get there? What's the point of her even staying at Shiz? If she's, if she truly believes that she can't do the things that she wants to. And so I, I really wanted to sort of build, sort of build her up to take the rug out from underneath her almost, you know?
12:19 Kara Swisher? Obviously, the wizard and I, you know, that's, that's, that's a sunny, hopeful.
12:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it, and it wants to be filled with like hope and, and joy and laughter and like cheekiness and funniness and all those things that sort of start to slip away from her. And the moment you think it's not gonna happen again, after the Ozdast, you get that back again. And then it's ripped out from underneath her again. Like the passivity for her to believe that anything's possible still exists. And I really wanted that for this character, because I knew that the fall is much harder and the fall is a much further fall to have, yeah.
12:55 Kara Swisher? Which is of course flying, actually. Um, John and I talked about the huge undertaking, the scene Divine Gravity, obviously, the, the last and. Probably most critical scene, although I do think that ballroom scene, to me, was the most critical scene, for me at least. Let's have a listen to what he said about this scene.
13:13 Speaker 03 Defying gravity was probably the hardest thing I've ever shot in my life because it required all departments. It required our sets when we're building it. We had like three different sections. We had the actual bottom with the staircase spinning up. We had the top, and then we had to have another top for the outside because we needed room for the rigging because she was actually going to be all flown around and singing live. So you can't do this if you don't have Cynthia Erivo.
13:40 Kara Swisher? So, talk a little bit about that scene.
13:43 Speaker 02 I feel like defying gravity, literally, even though it has the word in it, is the ultimate defiance. It's the one time that she gets to proclaim that she is done with meeting people's expectations. She is done with listening to what people say she can and cannot do, and is deciding to take on the hardest thing. But not because of anyone else, but because she sort of realizes that the only one that can do this for her is her. The only one that she's seeking really acceptance from is herself. And I knew how physically tasking it would be.
14:23 Speaker 02 I knew that singing and flying would be difficult. But I just didn't care how hard it was going to be because I really felt like experiencing it all helped me to understand what it actually felt like to fly. And finding a way to make the sound made me feel really powerful. You have to sort of conjure up that power in other places as opposed to getting it from your diaphragm where you have to breathe or getting it from a full lung capacity. You actually have to engage your entire body to make the sound. And it means that you immediately have to make different choices than if you were just
15:08 Speaker 02 standing on the ground. And I wouldn't have changed that for the world. I knew I was up for the challenge, and that challenge kind of started. When we got there, because I needed to know what it was to fly in a harness that way, to do those sort of big vast tricks and stunts, the flying around the perimeter, the loop-de-loop and the backflips, all of those things whilst making sound. And all of that training sort of came beforehand, before we could even get to the set. But I just, I was really prepared to do it, to be honest.
15:41 Kara Swisher? It works a lot better because your reactions are what, you know, because you're singing it.
15:45 Speaker 02 There.
15:46 Kara Swisher? Yeah, because you could, it's hard to fake that. Wicked fans were super quick to pick up on your note change in the last line of the song, the quote unquote war cry, that every alphabet scene leads, kind of makes your own. Talk about how you landed your version that's in the movie.
16:00 Speaker 02 Well, originally I was doing Bible, so I was doing what was written, which is what Edina did. And when we started to record the practice comps, Stephen Aramis and Stephen Schwartz said, now you do your own. That's great. Thank you for doing Bible. What's your war cry? What does your war cry sound like? And I, I tried a couple and then I just sort of let go and, and that came out. And when it came out, when that sound came out, when that, those succession of notes came out, it felt, it just felt right.
16:39 Speaker 02 It wasn't necessarily a sort of cerebral, thoughtful choice. It just happened. We were rehearsing, we were recording it and I tried something. The first thing didn't quite feel right and I tried something else, it didn't quite feel right. And then I landed on this and it felt really right.
16:59 Kara Swisher? What was right about it?
17:02 Speaker 02 I don't know, it felt really guttural, you know, I mean, it felt connected. And it did feel like a war cry for me. And I, and I, and I, it sort of stuck. I don't know, there's a, there's a feeling you get when it's, when it's right. And that's what I was looking for and it came with that. Yeah.
17:25 Kara Swisher? We'll be back in a minute.
17:33 Speaker 04 Hey folks, it's David Axelrod.
17:35 Speaker 05 And Mike Murphy.
17:36 Speaker 04 Murphy, what are you gonna do after the election? What are you gonna do with your time the day after the election?
17:42 Speaker 05 I got a three-point plan, David. I'm gonna struggle home from the fun party as an anti-Trump Republican. I'm gonna enjoy Democrat wins for the first time in my life. And then I'm gonna get on a podcast with you that we do called Hacks on Tap. And we're gonna go on Wednesday through all the results, doing what we do, which is bring a lot of experience. And then I'm gonna help rebuild the Republican Party. How's that?
18:03 Speaker 04 Wow, and then what are you gonna do Thursday?
18:05 Speaker 05 One day at a time, pal. So folks, be sure to tune in and we're gonna go through all the results on Hacks on Tap.
18:11 Speaker 04 That's Hacks on Tap on Wednesday.
18:14 Kara Swisher? So you've done this massive tour to promote the movie, often with Ariana Grande. Obviously, you've created moment after moment after. I'm not gonna get into all of them, because there's so many. But the numbers, obviously, it's paying off, because the numbers are huge. This is one of the biggest grossing movies of this year.
18:31 Kara Swisher? And now you have the Oscars. Now, the issue is blockbusters almost never win, especially when they're held by women, and women are the main actors. I was thinking Barbie, there's so many, there's so many. How are you looking at this? Why go on this, I mean, massive tour? I'm just curious how you think about what you're doing here.
18:49 Speaker 02 I look at it as, the tour, I think, is just to make sure that people go and see this film. I think it's an important film to see. I think it's important for everyone to see, not just for women to see. And that's sort of the thing that's coming back to me. Men are saying that they've been to see this one, and they are connecting with it on a level.
19:07 Kara Swisher? They are. I took my 19-year-old son, he didn't wanna go. He goes, "That's a chick film." He's 19, he's a frat bro in Michigan. And I said, "You're going with mama." And then we'll go to Gladiator together afterwards, which I also liked. But he loved it. He thought it was incredibly powerful.
19:24 Speaker 02 And and I think that's that's actually the important thing. I think part of doing this tour is to make sure that everybody understands that it's not just a chick film. It's not just for little girls. It's not just for kids. That it's actually for everyone. It is something for everyone in it. And that just because there are two women protagonists, that doesn't automatically mean that no men can understand what's going on. We don't say that of films that are mainly male, and most films are mainly male. I mean, we have The Irishman, which was quite frankly, all men, but nobody is saying this is a dude film. No, we go and we watch it because it's a good film. We go and we watch
20:06 Speaker 02 good cinema. And I think with big movies, we sort of like we don't allow them to also be medicine too. It can also feed you things that we need to know about the human condition. And I believe that this is what this film has the power to do. Bring people in, make people believe in in in magic, but also make people think about what it is to change your mind, to make a person feel like they don't belong, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive, to know what it feels like to not belong and and also to see yourself in that. And then maybe find ways
20:47 Speaker 02 for yourself to accept who you are, so you aren't searching for other people to accept you. There there is so much in this film that I think is really important for people to see.
20:57 Kara Swisher? I would agree. I mean, I I my favorite line you were talking about Divine Grady a second ago is no wizard that there is or was is ever gonna bring me down, which is one of the great lines. And it feels like it's become my motto for this. I I've covered Elon Musk for thirty years and I know him very well and he's a terrible person. But um you know, in this Trump two point O world, um I always think about
21:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:21 Kara Swisher? someone like an Elon Musk and this song meeting that moment, even if it's twenty five years old.
21:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:26 Kara Swisher? Um, talk a little bit about that because you have this film that's um. It's against the zeitgeist right now, or whatever it happens to be.
21:36 Speaker 02 There's no way we could have imagined that this was what was going to happen. I mean, honestly, it took more than twenty years for it to become what it is, for it to get to the screen. And yet somehow we've managed to land right when we're supposed to land.
21:50 Kara Swisher? Perfect timing.
21:51 Speaker 02 And I think that the amount of times I've been told that this is the film that people need right now, because there's so much hopelessness. People are so afraid, really, really scared about what will happen to them and their families and and whether or not we're going to go back in time. Now, we do not know for sure, but I think a film like this can help us be hopeful about the fact that we are not helpless and that it takes a little bravery to to change things, but things can change. We are more powerful than we allow ourselves to be, even against the worst of it. And I I just think that this film is really important for that now.
22:36 Kara Swisher? One of the things that I was thinking about, given the time of the release, which is just after the election, do you think the reception to Wicked would have been different if Kamala Harris had won, at least in this country? As a personification of the opposition in film, were you ever worried that you personally could have come under attack by MAGA? If the election had gone the other way, for example?
22:56 Speaker 02 Um, I don't think I was ever worried about whether I would come under attack, because I I actually think, strangely enough, I think people of all ages, from all walks of life, are watching this movie. I think a person who might be wearing a MAGA cap is still watching it. In fact, I know there are people who are wearing MAGA caps that have worn it. I've spoken to a person who was wearing a MAGA cap, who definitely watched this movie and loved the movie.
23:19 Kara Swisher? What did they say to you?
23:20 Speaker 02 That they loved it and it was really special. There is humanity in this. That's the thing I think is really important. Films can shift the way people think and feel. And this movie, I think, is able to shift the way people feel and think. And there are people, and anyone who doesn't want to shift or think or feel or change the way they see things. It's just simply, I think, afraid of what it looks like on the other side if they have to look at the mirror and go, oh, maybe I've been wrong.
23:51 Kara Swisher? Right, but you don't see it as an opposition movie or a resistance movie or anything like that?
23:57 Speaker 02 I think anything that has women in the in the lead, that is talking about difference, that is talking about people who are on the outside. Ha- it will always have an element of resistance in it because there's some genetic makeup of it, but
24:11 Kara Swisher? Right.
24:12 Speaker 02 more than it being resistance, I think it's a movie about humanity, which everyone can afford to see, I think.
24:18 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah, it's a dirty word, diversity right now, but it's not a dirty word.
24:22 Speaker 02 I wish we could all just get over ourselves. The word diversity simply means many different things in one place. It should be a norm. It should, we shouldn't be discussing, we need diversity because it all should just be as it is. When you walk outside, you see thousands and thousands of different people who aren't at the same as you. That is diversity, which is simply wanting to see it, what we see in real life on our screens. There should be, and in our workplaces and where we live.
24:51 Kara Swisher? Yeah, there should be.
24:53 Speaker 02 Well, there should be, you know?
24:54 Kara Swisher? They're scrubbing it from everything right now, which is makes it more powerful.
24:58 Speaker 02 It should, it's saying, because actually it makes everyone weaker. Doing that makes everyone weaker. And and we, and I, you know, the, I'm sure that the opposite is to be thought of. We think that if we just, if we just ask, then it will be, no, because you lose, you lose out on the thoughts of other people, on how to actually cater to an actual mass. You're actually only connecting with a small amount of people, not everybody, which is a sad loss, I think. But I don't think it all makes.
25:32 Kara Swisher? You know, the story is about systematic government surveillance, oppression by incompetent. Leaders lying, misinformation, marginalized people have been other, rising up to fight against injustice. It's really kind of interesting.
25:46 Speaker 02 Gregory Maguire wrote it that way. That and he, he
25:50 Kara Swisher? Yes.
25:51 Speaker 02 Wanted that, you know, forefront of it. And I think it's important to keep reminding ourselves that those systems are in place. If we're not mindful of it, we actually end up rewinding.
26:03 Kara Swisher? Well, in fact, when I saw it for the first time, I saw it, I was like, oh, this is about my life. I'm about to be gay, but I was like, oh, I see who wrote this. Like, you know what I mean? And you kind of think, but speaking of that, I want to ask you about something you said in a speech last year when you accepted the Schrader Award in Los Angeles LGBT Center. Let me play a part. I thought this was a wonderful speech you gave.
26:23 Speaker 02 As I stand here in front of you, black, bald headed, pierced and queer.
26:41 Speaker 02 I can say I know a thing or two about being the other. Elphaba's story is the cautionary tale of what it can sometimes mean to have to stand in your individuality, your otherness, even when systems of oppression are set against you. It is the story of how a colorful, powerful, magical woman, despite being disparaged, demonized and discriminated against, becomes a hero. Wicked is the reclamation and the reimagining of all the labels that are used against her. It is the proclamation of her right to exist in all of her power. If that sounds familiar to you colorful, magical people in this room, it should.
27:24 Kara Swisher? It was a great speech. You also talked about being inside of a glass box, which I thought was a really wonderful metaphor. And you said, there you were, vibrant and beautiful and falling in love. And I had my nose pressed up against the glass, looking out at all of you separate and apart. It took time for me to outgrow my box, but that gift that it gives us space to see ourselves clear enough to know that denying a part of oneself is a disservice to a whole. But now the glass is shattered and there's no box inside. And I've walked out into the wide open spaces and to the arms of people and it feels like home. Talk a little bit about that, the shattering of the box. I think everyone, people have different metaphors for that.
28:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, I I I had not really talked about my queerness for such a long time.
28:05 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
28:05 Speaker 02 And and it was so loud for me, uh, and I was very sure of it. And I just, I didn't have the words and I couldn't, I'd never spoken about it. And until um Edward Enthol, who knew me very well, asked if I.
28:20 Kara Swisher? Just for people who don't know, that's Vogue magazine's editor at Britain.
28:24 Speaker 02 He had asked me, I call him Uncle Edward, he asked me if I wanted to share it, if I wanted to be a part of an addition, a pride addition. And I said, yes, because I felt really safe with him. And it was the first time I was just like, I think I'm done not being everything that I'm supposed to be. Because I felt like it was occupying so much space and and it was like loud. And I just, I wanted to get rid of the noise and claim back the space a bit so I could actually just exist and be a human in the world. And create more. I really felt like the more I hid something, the more I suppressed it.
29:06 Speaker 02 The less space I was using to to create and be. And I wasn't truly, I felt like I wasn't being honest.
29:15 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
29:15 Speaker 02 With myself and with other people about who I was. And I just was over it. I was done.
29:20 Kara Swisher? I mean, it is obviously so debilitating, it being.
29:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:24 Kara Swisher? It hiding is always debilitating.
29:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:26 Kara Swisher? It used to be much worse. It's still debilitating. And last night I was at an event in San Francisco, or two nights ago. And a young trans reporter, it was a journalism thing, asked me from the audience, um, I'm a trans woman, should I talk about it? And I said, you can't hide, it's, it will kill you. It will, it's like a cancer within a person.
29:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think that's, it just, it just grows that, that, and I felt myself getting rid, like. Almost resentful that other people could just be.
29:56 Kara Swisher? Mm hmm.
29:57 Speaker 02 And enjoy their lives as queer out people. And I was like, I I want that for myself. I wanna be able to talk about it when someone brings it up in a room. I wanna be able to say, yeah, I'm me too. I wanna be able, they, I wanna be able to share in those conversations and I, and I wasn't, I couldn't, and I was quiet and I just was, I just was over.
30:16 Kara Swisher? Why was that? Why, why be quiet? Were you frightened of?
30:19 Speaker 02 I was just afraid that it would, it would make the spaces that I could be a part of smaller. I think I thought it would uh.
30:27 Kara Swisher? There's not many, there's not many queer people in, in theatre, but go ahead.
30:31 Speaker 02 Well, it's not, it's about like TV and, and, and screen. And I just was like, I don't know. It's one thing to be a black girl on screen, it's another to be a queer black girl in, in the mainstream. So I just was like, I don't know if this is going to. Like, end this for me, but I, I know that I can't continue pretending. That just doesn't work. I've been in so many conversations where people were talking about their lives and. You know, how they loved and I, I, you know, you're in theatre and you're around so many people who are that way and. And I was just like, oh, why, I can't, I can't pretend anymore.
31:13 Speaker 02 It's just after hear those conversations over and over and over again. And you're like, and it's right on the tip of your tongue. You wanna be like, oh, me too. I, I. And you don't, it just, I just wanna do it anymore.
31:25 Kara Swisher? I had just interviewed Laverne Cox, who said, trans people should start to hide again. Laverne was specifically talking about transgender kids. They, they should go stealth for their safety. She wasn't saying it's a good thing. She's worried about kids today. What advice would you, would you give for young people who'd be struggling? Especially in this political climate. It is scary in this country at this point. I'm scared. I, I mean, I've been through the whole thing.
31:49 Speaker 02 I'm, I'm, I, I can't lie and say that I'm not frightened for, for, for young children who are discovering who they are and. Trying to navigate what it is to be queer for themselves and what it is to be trans. And I'm trying to figure out where they sit within the world. And I hope that. I hope that they seek out adults who understand what it is they might be going through. Because less than hiding from the world, there have to be older people, older adults, that understand and have the experience that can be soft places to land. I really, I really don't want people to hide themselves. I don't want people to hide who they are.
32:34 Speaker 02 So I don't think that actually helps. I understand why uh that is the suggestion. And I, I want kids to be safe. I want young teenagers to be safe. I want people to be safe. But I wonder if there is a middle ground where it is about finding chosen family who will accept you for who you are, so that those are safe spaces for you to just be.
33:02 Kara Swisher? You do play a lot of rebel characters. You were nominated for an Oscar for your portrayal of Harriet Tubman. You played Aretha Franklin. Uh, Seeley from Color Purple takes a stand. Have you been drawn or feel compelled to be an advocate or activist at all or not?
33:17 Speaker 02 I, I think maybe subconsciously I'm moving towards it consistently. I think I find that the work allows me to, to sort of plant my flag in the sand about what I believe. And the way I see our, our place in the world. Um, I think I'm constantly seeking out characters who want something and who stand for more than just
33:44 Speaker 02 nothing, you know? Whether it's Aretha, who actually was an activist and I don't know that many people even know this.
33:50 Kara Swisher? Absolutely, yeah.
33:51 Speaker 02 Um, or, or it's Seeley who has to figure out what it means to love and is also a queer character. Or whether it's, I think, I'm, I seek them out by accident.
34:03 Kara Swisher? Mm hmm.
34:04 Speaker 02 It just are, those are desirable characters for me. I'm drawn to them because they have something to say. Um, and I guess,
34:14 Speaker 02 I guess there's something thrilling about use, using my voice to say what they want to say, but it's also kind of saying what I want to say too.
34:24 Kara Swisher? We'll be back in a minute.
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35:45 Kara Swisher? One of the things you use is your voice for music because integral to all the roles you've played that people know of right now. In 2019, you got an Oscar nod for the song Stand Up, which you were, I think, a co-writer with in Harriet, which you also performed. The film's not a musical, but the music plays a central role as a mode of communication in that movie, for sure. You also co-wrote and performed a song in the indie film Drift, which came out 2023. How important is music play in your career going forward? I mean, I suspect you're someone, unfortunately, that every time you show up, they want you to sing, right? The party, like. Please sing. Right.
36:22 Speaker 02 Music is completely, it's like my second language essentially, so I feel like it's all goes hand in hand.
36:28 Kara Swisher? I think it's always been a part of how I express and how I tell stories and I I love that somehow that it's sort of weaved its way into everything that I've
36:38 Speaker 02 kind of done, maybe except for a TV role, Holly Gibney, who doesn't like music, strangely enough. But I think that using music to express and tell a story, because I really do believe that music is the bit that comes after there's not enough, that the words aren't enough.
36:57 Kara Swisher? Mm hmm.
36:58 Speaker 02 And so to be able to use that for me is great. I I feel very privileged and very lucky to be able to access that part of myself, because I do think it's a really vulnerable part, which is probably why I'm drawn to it a lot. And why I keep trying to, sometimes I I actively put it in, there was no real music in in Drift. We, it's something I knew I wanted to write immediately.
37:22 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
37:23 Speaker 02 It felt like it was necessary to hear this character's thought process and story in music, because it accesses the the most vulnerable parts of people.
37:36 Kara Swisher? Can you explain what Drift was briefly?
37:39 Speaker 02 Drift was a little indie movie that I made.
37:44 Kara Swisher? You produced it too.
37:45 Speaker 02 Produced it too, was acting in it as a character called Jacqueline, who was a refugee from Liberia, but was born to a well-to-do family, political family, who was massacred. And then she escapes to Greece and you're essentially watching her life as she tries to survive in Greece, it's sort of like a recitative on on the condition of of immigrants and refugees in other countries, yeah.
38:20 Kara Swisher? What direction are you going in now? Do you see yourself returning to the stage, Broadway, producing indie film? You know, when you get to a blockbuster status, you have a lot more choices, presumably, but maybe not, I don't know.
38:33 Speaker 02 Why have to choose? Can I do all?
38:36 Kara Swisher? What are you attracted to? How about that?
38:38 Speaker 02 I mean, I definitely know that I want to go back to the stage at some point, I just don't know how or what, because following up. Sealy and the color purple is really hard.
38:48 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
38:49 Speaker 02 I need to find the thing that fills me just as much as that. And when I knew that the color purple was coming, I knew immediately that I wanted to do it. So I have to, I wanna find the thing that does makes me feel that way again. It might not be exactly the same, but I I wanna be sure about the thing that I'm going to do. And then, and I I definitely want, I love the experience of building of this big world. So I I still wanna, I wanna experience more of th- this size of of movie because it's it's really um different to to other things. But there are definitely stories that I'm looking at now that are not as big. They're much quieter, much more intimate things.
39:31 Speaker 02 It's the characters that pull me in, to be honest. It's not necessarily the the project. It's always, it's always the the character.
39:39 Kara Swisher? You just, for people who don't know, you've been cast to play in upcoming film Children of Blood and Bone, uh, based on a bestselling uh, young adult series. Um, the character is not nice. It's not nice.
39:50 Speaker 02 No, she's not. She's not nice. But she's, she believes that she's she's justified in her behavior. Yeah. And I, but I like the, I like the core of where she comes from. Yeah.
40:05 Kara Swisher? Now, you also reportedly have a new album coming out this year.
40:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:09 Kara Swisher? Can you give us a preview of that? Or me?
40:12 Speaker 02 Uh, the album is sort of like born of uh, a lot of vocal techniques. I build the pads using my own voice. I don't have an arranger. I don't use arrangements. They sort of come to me as they come to me. So I'll I'll record a vocal line and then record a vocal line over that and record a vocal line over that as and as each line is being recorded, the next set of uh, vocal lines will come to me. So I I do it uh.
40:42 Speaker 02 In real time, uh, and I've written on all of these songs. I have a couple of writers who have come in to work with me on some songs and sometimes it's just me and my producer Will Wells. Uh, and I'm really excited about it. It's not a musical. Uh, it's not in the style of theatre, um, although that doesn't mean that so those songs couldn't be in a show. But, um, it's, it's sort of influenced by the type of music that I've listened to over my life, whether it be R and B or sort of Britpop or pop, um, if, and I wasn't even necessarily going for the style. I really wanted to concentrate on the way the voice was used within the music.
41:26 Kara Swisher? Mm hmm.
41:27 Speaker 02 And that's what each of those songs has in common, that the voice is really front forward. Yeah.
41:32 Kara Swisher? Right. And then you'll be on the wicked freight train, um, very versatile. Um, I have two very quick last questions. One is uh, I was with, I was in Los Angeles because I'm working on something there and a table full of gay people. Uh, gay, lesbian and queer people, and they all wanted to know about your nails. And I said, I'm not asking you about her clothing. That is something you would ask a woman. Uh, you know, and not a man. And they said, oh, if it was a man, I would ask about that or the way you dress and what you're doing. Um, they were really curious about wh- wh- what you're doing it for, for yourself, for performance. I said, for you. That's what I said. And I dress badly, so I wouldn't know, but go ahead.
42:08 Speaker 02 I dress for me. I dress for me because clothing for me is, is like a love language. And that's everything from my piercings to the nails to the, what I put on my body to my jewellery. Um, everything I wear by whatever that is, is, is because it speaks to me and who I am as a person and the style I want to express. Some people are more sedate with what they wear. I'm just not. I've been this way for a really long time. It's just people get it a lot more now. Um, and I guess I'm a rebel in that, that I just sort of. I'm not really afraid about whether people like it or not.
42:51 Kara Swisher? Oh, they loved it. They loved it. They just wanted to know why. They all had theories.
42:56 Speaker 02 And I also want people to be encouraged that they can just be themselves. I think sometimes we dress because we want people to say that we look good. We dress because we want to be on the best dress list. I I dress because I love it. I dress because I love clothes and I love dressing up and I love jewelry. And I and I am a geek about how things are made and who makes it. And I'll I'll seek out random boutiquey like designers that nobody else in the world knows. And and I'll be in love with with the way they make things. And it just is how I am. Yeah.
43:33 Kara Swisher? It's fantastic. I thought, you know, I wear soft pants myself all the time, soft clothes.
43:40 Kara Swisher? That's my style, soft pants. I'm wearing hard pants today for you, but otherwise I wear soft pants. I'm sorry for asking that, but I told them I would. So because.
43:47 Speaker 02 No, no, thank you for asking. No, but it's a it's a great question because I think sometimes people think I'm doing it for other people. Um, but I'm really not.
43:55 Kara Swisher? Someone told me they thought your nails were a shield. I was like, I don't know.
43:59 Speaker 02 No, I think it's the opposite. This is something I've been doing since I was sixteen years old. And then I stopped doing it because I was afraid of what people would say. And then I realized how much fun it is to have them done. And how it also gave me three or five hours to sit and do nothing and have someone put their art on my fingers. Like, I I, in fact, the way it brings people in is actually really interesting. People are not afraid to hold my hand, like they want to look at my fingers, which means that people have to be in your personal space.
44:39 Kara Swisher? So you're pulling them in. Ha ha, they were wrong. Last question. If you won Best Actress at the Oscars, you'd be the youngest person to get in EGOT.
44:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:47 Kara Swisher? What would would that mean for you?
44:50 Speaker 02 I mean, I I I always try and like play this off like it's like a not a meaningful thing, but it would be really meaningful. It would be very exciting to be that to be that, to be the youngest person that wins an EGOT. And it's also like a sort of big pat on the back from people that I, you know, I look up to the work that I'm doing and hopefully sort of like a big kick up the bum to keep going and and doing more. Um. You don't necessarily do this for awards. You don't. You do it because you love the work. If you just did it for the awards, that would not sustain. It would run out very quickly. But it is really special to for people to think of you in that way. It is really special for those things to come. Uh, because of this work, it's rare, you know.
45:35 Speaker 02 It's a nice place to be.
45:37 Kara Swisher? Yes, it is. And you're in a very nice place, may I just say. Um, I really appreciate you talking to me. Um, I really hope you win. I I scream about it all the time. I'm like, she has to. I thought the others were fine, but your your role, I have to tell you, impacted my daughter in a way that was really meaningful, you know, in terms of the message. She loved it and was thought about it a lot. It made her think, especially your facial expressions. I know that sounds crazy. You had a lot of facial expressions she caught. She's a very canny child and she um she came back from school, she's a public schooler in DC, and she said, I learned the word diverse today, which I was like, sort of the last time you're gonna be able to learn it if if the Republicans take over DC schools.
46:20 Kara Swisher? And and she goes, I go, what does it mean? I didn't want to define it for her. She goes, but what does that mean? And she said, it means you're different, like uh Elphaba. That you're just different. We're all different and it's okay. And I was like, thank you. It was so good. It was such a great moment.
46:35 Speaker 02 Well, yeah.
46:36 Kara Swisher? It was lovely. It was really sweet.
46:38 Speaker 02 Can we can we can we get your daughter to teach everybody else?
46:42 Kara Swisher? You know what?
46:43 Speaker 02 Cause that is, it's so interesting. I I've been really astounded by how beautifully and succinctly children have been able to put the themes that are in this film together. It's actually wonderful to hear it from kids, because they just get it. I don't know why that surprises me, but it does because of how clear.
47:14 Speaker 02 They are, every time.
47:16 Kara Swisher? Every time. Always. They know they should run everything. They should not grow up and they should run everything. Instead, we're being governed by adult children, toddlers, which was an insult to toddlers. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
47:31 Speaker 02 Thank you very much for this. This is really awesome.
47:38 Kara Swisher? On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Rosell, Kateri Yokum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Purwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Furby, Kate Gallagher, and Corinne Ruff. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already fine with the show, you get a pair of fantastic nails. If not, you get some soft pants from me. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.
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