Sarah Silverman on Being Wrong – and Treating Trolls with Kindness (from ReThinking with Adam Grant)

Happy Holidays! We have a special episode from our friend Adam Grant and the folks at the TED Audio Collective. Sarah Silverman is a comedian, actor, and writer who doesn’t shy away from saying what she thinks. In this episode of ReThinking with Adam Grant, Sarah shares stories from her bold, distinctive career that has taken her from Saturday Night Live and Seinfeld to Broadway, late-night TV, plays and Disney animated movies. Adam and Sarah also discuss defusing anger, finding courage, and forging connections when we don’t see eye-to-eye. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  Hi folks and happy holidays. The on team is off. So today, we're going to play you an episode of my friend Adam Grant's podcast, Rethinking. In this episode, Adam speaks with the hilarious and wonderful comedian, actor, and writer Sarah Silverman. They talk about Silverman's winding career from Saturday Night Live to Seinfeld to Broadway, late night TV, and even Disney animated movies. And they have a really great conversation about diffusing anger and forging connections, even when we don't see eye to eye. That is perfect for this time of year. Enjoy.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Jennifer Garner. We talk all about what it means to be a good friend, Jen's encyclopedic knowledge of my recipes, and the Paris tour I put together for Jen and her daughter. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 1:57Speaker 03

  Have you ever looked up and realized your leisure time isn't actually all that leisurely?

• 2:03Speaker 04

  So what starts out as wanting to learn something and wanting to progress through different ways of knowing how to do something turns into something that you're sort of like giving yourself a score on.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  This week on Explain It To Me, how to keep the grind mentality from ruining your downtime. Listen to new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:26Speaker 05

  My experience of life is more important to me than the idea of legacy or like, I'll be dead. I don't know. I'm trying to really find joy in, in life. And if I can be funny as well, that's great. And if I can't, I'm still gonna choose being okay over despair or misplaced anger or needing to prove something.

• 2:57Speaker 06

  Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

• 3:15Speaker 06

  My guest today is comedian Sarah Silverman. I've been a fan ever since I first saw her on Seinfeld and SNL in the 90s. And my kids love her as Vanellope in Wreck It Ralph. She hosts the Sarah Silverman podcast and is touring the US this fall and winter for her new show, Postmortem. Sarah's a rare comic who makes me laugh hard and think hard. Her latest HBO special, Someone You Love, cracked me up. I was excited to talk with Sarah about courage, compassion, and her shockingly effective approach to engaging with jerks. As you'll see, she's unusually candid.

• 3:57Speaker 06

  Sarah Silverman, how often do people tell you that you are one of their top four favorite comedians?

• 4:04Speaker 05

  No more often than ever.

• 4:07Speaker 06

  Okay, my kids also want to know, is it possible that you can do this entire conversation in character as Vanellope?

• 4:13Speaker 05

  I mean, I'll try.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  Your face is so sweet.

• 4:20Speaker 06

  So good. I love it.

• 4:23Speaker 05

  I'll try, but I've got pixlexia.

• 4:27Speaker 06

  One of the things that I've admired most about you, Sarah, is your boldness. You say things that I would be afraid to think, let alone speak. And I want to know how you got that way.

• 4:42Speaker 05

  I had a father who thought it was hilarious to teach his toddler swears. He didn't do it with my older, all my sisters, but with me, he did. And we were at Boys Market in Manchester, New Hampshire, and I just screamed out all these swears he had taught me, and I was three. And the experience of all these adults around me giving me wild affirmation despite themselves, an addiction was born. I remember just feeling this kind of glee that made my arms itch.

• 5:22Speaker 05

  I found this gift I had been given by my father where I could shock grownups, but they would not get mad. They would laugh. It created a monster and a skill. I mean, since I was six, I was going to sleepover camp. Well, I was a bedwetter till I was about 16. So it was awful for me. It was a lesson in total disassociation. But I remember making some friends and I loved Morgan Mindy and I had, and I loved Robin Williams and I had the big rainbow suspenders that I thought were so cool. And I wore them over my camp uniform. And these girls were...

• 6:04Speaker 05

  Kind of a clique and they were like these cool girls and they were like, "Oh, we love your suspenders." And I'm like, "Aren't they cool?" You know, and then we went on a hike and they were kind of behind me and I could hear them like giggling and, and making fun of me a little bit. And then I turned around and I said, "Are you guys making fun of me because of my suspenders? Are they not cool?" I just said, said it, blurted it out. And it's really like, if it's mentionable, it's manageable, like Mr. Rogers, because they became my friends. Like, they, they laughed at me and they saw that they could laugh at me in front of me.

• 6:39Speaker 06

  Which I hope made it more laughing with you.

• 6:41Speaker 05

  If I could be included, even if they're laughing at me, I was thrilled, especially because I, that made me the center. That was a really good lesson, you know, I, I, I could have stayed in my head, heard them snickering about me and making fun of me, and internalized it. There's some kind of martial arts and I only learned about it on like, season five of Walking Dead or something where you use the force of the, the force coming towards you. Does that ring a bell? I just thought maybe you'd know what it's called. Is that what jujitsu is?

• 7:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 7:13Speaker 05

  You know, so someone's running at you with all their force and you use that force, their own inertia or force?

• 7:20Speaker 06

  Exactly. It's jujitsu. You're using people's force, not against them, but for them. So Sarah, a few years ago, I got to see a different side of you when you replied to an internet troll.

• 7:32Speaker 05

  He called me a cunt. I mean, I don't usually read comments, just out of self-preservation, but of course, sometimes I do. And I saw it and it was something mean, you know, whatever. And I was walking my dog, I remember actually. And I clicked on his profile and I read some of his tweets and I saw that he had severe back pain and I totally relate to that. And so I responded, just, just connecting with him on that. I don't know. And then we just started connecting. And then we moved to direct message and most of our relationship was there.

• 8:11Speaker 06

  There are a bunch of things that, that I just found extraordinary about this story. The first one is, I, I can't even imagine wanting to engage with this person.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  It's truly irrelevant because it has nothing to do with me at all. If it were personal, if he said I was an unfunny cunt, then it would, it would tinge a little, you know.

• 8:32Speaker 06

  What motivated you to look at his timeline?

• 8:35Speaker 05

  I'm always curious. I'm always curious if I see something very hateful or just kind of base. I'm curious to see the person behind it a little bit, whatever that avatar is. And so often it's, I love my country and I, God is number one.

• 8:54Speaker 05

  Very ironic, but I also am familiar with rage and I'm familiar with the feeling of pain and the very unconscious need or desire to want to inflict the same pain on somebody right away, whoever's in front of you. And I mean, that's something my dad had to deal with and he did not so well and then very well. And then I've had a lot of opportunity and resources to deal with myself. And so I can find a way in. I feel connected to that because I recognize it.

• 9:30Speaker 06

  It's so unusual, especially in this era, right? For you to see that kind of behavior and say, all right, not only am I going to empathize with this person, but I'm going to respond with compassion. I'm not just going to read to you what you wrote because I went and looked it up.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  Oh my God, you have found, oh.

• 9:48Speaker 06

  Of course I found it. I do my homework.

• 9:49Speaker 05

  I'm on the edge of my seat. Oh God.

• 9:51Speaker 06

  Okay, ready? Here's what you said in response to him insulting you. "I believe in you. I read your timeline and I see what you're doing and your rage is thinly veiled pain. But you know that. I know this feeling. P.S. My back fucking sucks too. See what happens when you choose love. I see it in you."

• 10:11Speaker 05

  You know, the fraud part of me goes, I don't know, someone with like a Messiah complex. This exists in a lot of comedians because, and in the unhealthy version, when you're a comic and everyone's laughing and there's one person not laughing, that's the only person you care about making laugh. And I don't think that's healthy. I think it's better to see all these people listening and watching and laughing and joyful and, and open. But you see that one closed person or the one, you know, whatever, and you're laser focused on it. I believe that 100% of comics become funny as a means of surviving childhood. And so often those things that we learn.

• 10:55Speaker 05

  Are things that we really need to unlearn in adulthood if they don't they don't serve us anymore. But because it's our career, it serves us. But it's, you know, something to navigate. I there are comics that don't want to be happy because they're afraid they won't be funny. And I might be the perfect example of that one way or another, because of course, there's people online going, remember when you used to be funny? And there are people that find me very funny now, but but there is something about that fire that is good. And it's finding a balance, I guess.

• 11:30Speaker 06

  Look, I think everybody is vulnerable to a white knight complex at some point. It's hard for me to imagine, though, that you really crave the approval of an internet troll. And I still think it counts as a meaningful act of kindness that you reached out to this person and you didn't stop there. You had a whole conversation with him and he apologized to you and you ended up offering to pay his medical bills and you developed this this friendship. And I don't think you should be so dismissive of it.

• 11:57Speaker 05

  And I think the reason why you bringing this up now, I have a little bit of a heavy heart is because we lost touch. I couldn't find him and I I was just left worried. I don't know what happened to him.

• 12:11Speaker 06

  Well, Jeremy, if you're listening, Sarah Silverman is looking for you.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

• 13:00Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:37Speaker 06

  Hey, y'all. It's a stud from [email protected]. We know that you have big questions about the world, and so do we. At Vox, we focus on covering the things that matter in your life and the things that make you curious, whether that's the big politics questions of the day, climate solutions that might actually work, or hopeful news in cancer or Alzheimer's research. We believe that journalism made for the everyday curious person can make a difference in making a better world. And if that sounds like something you want to be a part of, Vox now has a brand new app, and it brings all of our journalism together in one place. Go to vox.com/app to download today.

• 14:19Speaker 06

  Jeremy gave an interview a couple of weeks later, and he said, "I was once a giving and nice person, but too many things destroyed that, and I became bitter and hateful. Then Sarah showed me the way." Don't get me wrong, I still got a long way to go, but it's a start.

• 14:32Speaker 05

  I just think our purpose is taking care of each other. If we can realize that, boy, I mean, I just think we'd all be happier.

• 14:43Speaker 06

  I just looked at that and thought, I wonder if this can scale. Could more people do this? I wonder how much of it mattered because you're famous.

• 14:55Speaker 06

  And if a ran, if, if he had been interacting with a random person, would it have had the same impact on him? Would he have stopped and said, huh, like, there's a real person there?

• 15:05Speaker 05

  I think it would have. It's energy and it's not just because I moved to California. I, I think it's science. It's not subjective. It's subjective. Energy exists and I mean, they do say it cannot be created nor destroyed.

• 15:19Speaker 06

  Thermodynamics. I did not expect a thermodynamics reference in this conversation.

• 15:24Speaker 05

  But it can be changed. And I did have an experience of changing energy with a guy who was screaming at me outside of a weed store. He said that I, I bumped into his car with my car and I consciously thought this is an opportunity to see if I can change this energy. Because he screamed at me, got out of his car and screamed at me. And then my heart was pounding and it was converting into rage. And I just said, hold on, I can catch this energy or I can try to change it. And by the end we were, we hugged and we were laughing and it was so successful. It was clear that his rage was not created from me.

• 16:07Speaker 05

  I, I, I really did not touch his car when I was parking. I didn't even kiss it, but he had decided, whatever was going on with him, he needed this, you know? You, you went right into my car. And now, oh, and he said, and you're a woman, so I can't even do anything about it. Like, oh, you're gonna punch me? And I got out and I go, show me the damage because I'm gonna pay for this. I'm gonna make this right. And he goes, don't forget it. I said, no, I wanna see. I, I, I'm going to pay for this. I'm a woman of means and I'm responsible and I'm gonna pay for this. So he goes, forget it, just don't worry about it, it's fine. You know, there was no scrunch, but, so he backed off of that and I said, well, I'm going to the pot store and I'm gonna buy you pot.

• 16:52Speaker 05

  What's your preference? He goes, don't have to do that. I go, I'm doing it. And he goes, the full body one. I go, indica. Okay. I go into the pot store and I, I'm standing in line.

• 17:10Speaker 05

  And I get him a big indica, like spliff, and I'm getting some other things. And I'm still in line. And the security guard there said, "Hey, meter person is stopping. You're gonna get a ticket." And I go, "Shit." And then he goes, "Oh, that guy that was yelling at you is putting change in your meter." And I go, "Oh." You know, like I just... It was a love language. And I said, "Can you believe this? We were enemies and now we're best friends." And I just, I left there beaming.

• 17:44Speaker 06

  Such a sweet story. I do feel like if this were your stand-up routine, you would have been like, "And then I found out I gave him COVID and he totally deserved it."

• 17:52Speaker 05

  And he passed away.

• 17:53Speaker 06

  OK, there's a pattern here, which is you respond to these people who are nasty and aggressive by being aggressively kind.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 06

  And it works. It reaches them.

• 18:08Speaker 05

  People are just in so much pain and have no tools, you know? I play Call of Duty. This is probably not healthy at all. It doesn't... I don't know that it's doing anything good for me, but lately, this is what I enjoy.

• 18:27Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 18:28Speaker 05

  And I've always played like just with bots. And then I started playing with real people. But I'm on mute and they're on mute. And then I put... I unmuted the people and they were like 14-year-olds going, "Fucking kill yourself, dude." And like just screaming at me because I suck.

• 18:49Speaker 06

  Oh, no.

• 18:51Speaker 05

  It's a very dark place. I mean, they were saying really a lot of language that you don't hear in polite society anymore. The game will be over and then all the scores are up and you can see who's talking and what their score is. And I'm always last, almost always last. And I'll go, "You know what? Whatever score you got, you guys, I'm so proud of all of you. We should all be proud." And then they see who's saying it and they're so mad. And for some reason, it tickles me, which is another side of me, I guess.

• 19:24Speaker 06

  I think what you're doing, there's a, there's a foundation for it in psychology, right? Which is what most people do is they meet aggression with aggression. And then it spirals. And you're diffusing it by countering their expectations, making them feel seen and understood. And all of a sudden, there's, there's nothing to hit.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  They're showing me that they are craving care.

• 19:48Speaker 06

  I'm reminded of a riot experiment, this, I think this was on League of Legends, where they, they have all these players, you know, who are contributing to toxic chat, basically. And they create a tribunal where they, when people report a player for toxic behavior, they just display the chat logs to the community and then people vote on whether the person's behavior is toxic. And through this self policing system, they're able to get a lot of these people to reform because they see their reputation like, oh, wow. Like, I'm not proud of the way that I acted. And a lot of people end up apologizing for it. And so it makes me wonder, like, is there, is there a next step here where you say, okay,

• 20:33Speaker 06

  the first part is to show the person kindness who's being cruel. The second part is to show them the pattern of behavior they built up. Like, here's your chat log. Here's your timeline. This is the way you're showing up in the world. Is that who you want to be? Is that how you want to be seen? And for most people, the answer is hell, no.

• 20:50Speaker 05

  I don't know. I just, I find a lot of success in gestures of care. And, you know, is that a form of manipulation?

• 21:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, maybe.

• 21:03Speaker 06

  I mean, if it is, it's the healthiest manipulation I can think of.

• 21:06Speaker 05

  I remember like the kind of new wave of feminism and trying to appeal to.

• 21:13Speaker 05

  Straight men to be feminists as going like, you're gonna get so much pussy. Like if you're, you know, like you're at like feminist marches and stuff, you know?

• 21:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, you you don't really wanna draw people in that way. For the wrong reasons.

• 21:28Speaker 05

  It's like The Bachelor, you know, you don't wanna be there for the wrong reasons.

• 21:31Speaker 06

  I think some people would look at this this kind of outreach that you've done. And say that you're too empathetic and too forgiving.

• 21:40Speaker 05

  What's the downside?

• 21:43Speaker 06

  Well, if trolls are using aggression to get attention, is there a risk that you're reinforcing the behavior?

• 21:49Speaker 05

  Right, like are people now calling me a cunt online to try to connect?

• 21:55Speaker 06

  I hope that hasn't happened.

• 21:56Speaker 05

  Ninety nine percent of that is I don't respond to or and a lot of it I don't see. But maybe, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

• 22:06Speaker 06

  And if that's how you choose to operate and your hope is that that that kindness then is gonna be paid forward, it seems like an investment in creating a more respectful community or at least planting those seeds of a different kind of behavior. And like that seems to be an investment worth making.

• 22:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, good energy is also catchy. It may be a

• 22:31Speaker 05

  couple digits less catchy than negative energy.

• 22:35Speaker 06

  But that means we need more of it.

• 22:36Speaker 05

  Listen, I'm not a perfect driver and I mess up a lot. And what I've noticed is when they come up next to me, I'm already there waiting for them going, I'm so sorry. But you know, or I'll roll down and go, I'm a terrible driver. I'm so sorry. And I mean, it diffuses it immediately. It's pretty wild. Or even like if someone honks at me like, ah, or something. One thing I'll do, and this is not nice and it's very manipulative, is I will look in my rear view mirror at them and pretend to recognize them like they're, I know them and go, ah. You know, and then they they are immediately terrified and horrified.

• 23:19Speaker 05

  Because you wouldn't do that to someone you know. It's fun.

• 23:22Speaker 06

  I really like that. That, that, that is a way of holding up a mirror. So they can see their own reflection and not like what is staring back at them.

• 23:30Speaker 05

  I had a boyfriend once and we were fighting via email. Back and forth, back and forth. And I have three sisters. So while it's happening, this big fight, I'm forwarding to my sisters all the back and forths. Because I need them to weigh in. And I accidentally one time forwarded it to him. And I'm like, oh. And then he, he wrote back, I see that you're sending all this to your sisters. And I said, you know what? Talk to me as though all of my sisters can hear. That's how I want you to treat me.

• 24:05Speaker 06

  Is that when the relationship ended?

• 24:07Speaker 05

  No, I actually roamed on for a few more years.

• 24:11Speaker 06

  There's a Curb episode on this. It's the accidental text on purpose. You could have planned this instead of just botching the message.

• 24:19Speaker 05

  No, I was like, my heart was like, oh my God, you know, that present. And you're like, oh my God. But in the end, I was just like, no, I, I, I want you to have people you talk to about this. Even if you're representing it from your skewed perspective. I don't know if this is true, but it seems like men have fewer people that they talk to about their relationship, about what's going on in their lives. And I just think people need that. I went on one date with my boyfriend, my current boyfriend. We've been together for four years and was turned off for whatever reason, my own shit. And then I was FaceTiming with my best friend since high school.

• 25:02Speaker 05

  And I'm telling her everything and I'm telling it from my perspective. And she just listened to it and then she just goes, you're a fucking asshole. And I was like. What? She's like, you're so judgmental. Like, can you even imagine how? He was probably nervous. He was probably, you know, whatever. And if I didn't have that, if I didn't have that sounding board, I wouldn't be with this person that is my person. That's my family, you know, now.

• 25:31Speaker 06

  That is such a good example of a friend not just being a support network, but also a challenge network. And I love that there's a relationship that's strong enough where somebody can just call you out directly on that.

• 25:45Speaker 05

  Part of my living as a comedian is being flawed. To me, it's like a massive relief to be, to realize I'm wrong.

• 25:53Speaker 06

  You don't even have to admit that you were wrong to say, I'm sorry for the impact my behavior had on you.

• 26:00Speaker 05

  Oh, that's so great. Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  As US Americans voted in the midterm elections, a lot was uncertain, but one thing was clear. This year, many of the attention grabbing candidates identified or were identified as populists. Gina Inohosa, a Democrat who ran a surprisingly competitive race for governor in Texas.

• 26:21Speaker 05

  Populism is about economic power.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Sam Forstag, who ran for Congress as a Dem in Montana. I'm running as a populist because populism is what the Democratic Party is supposed to be about. It's what democracy is supposed to be about. Josh Turek, a Democrat up for a congressional seat in Ohio. We want to once again have a common sense, very populist that is fighting for the people. And Senate hopeful Dan Osborne, who ran as an independent in Nebraska and didn't use the word populist, but. My life sucks too. Costs are too high. The last 10 years in the US have been defined by Trump style populism. This year, candidates from across the political spectrum embraced the populist mantle. On Today Explained from Vox, what has 10 years of populism gotten us? And are we ever going back? Today Explained drops every weekday.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  We're just days away from the midterm elections, which means I only really have one question.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Hi, Samika Aguirre, it's Jessica. Yeah, and I'm Al. We're from the Culinary Union.

• 27:19Speaker 06

  How are the issues that we've been tracking all year actually playing? Out on the ground.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  The reason why we're out here, we're actually out here canvassing for Aaron Ford and Mr. Horford. I'm not sure if you've heard of them. Oh, yeah. Amen.

• 27:34Speaker 06

  A few weeks ago, I headed west to Nevada, where the entire midterms can basically be summed up in just three words, the Trump slump.

• 27:44Speaker 05

  Even with our great union jobs that we had, we struggled. That never happened before. It is because of these politicians what they're doing to us. The Trump slump.

• 27:57Speaker 06

  This week on America, Actually, midterms canvassing with the Las Vegas Culinary Union. How many more days until election day? Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Seth Matlins, and on this week's Creator Destroy: Reimagining Marketing, my two guests are Walmart's CMO, William White, and Waymo's CMO, Suzanne Fillion. Walmart's got 150 million people walking through its doors every week, while Waymo operates its autonomous ride-hailing cars in only 15 US cities as of now. But both shared stories about why they need to keep earning customer trust and how trust is earned by everything the companies do and say in that order. Creator Destroy. It's a business show, a marketing show, and a

• 28:39Speaker 06

  show that argues they've always been the same thing. From the Wisdom is Company and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

• 28:47Speaker 06

  Are you up for lightning?

• 28:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:49Speaker 06

  What is the worst advice you've ever gotten?

• 28:52Speaker 05

  Uh, my dad, who became my best friend, but was a very angry, unhinged, ragey young dad. If I cried, he would say, only babies cry. Please don't think of my father that way. He had an incredible turnaround in his older life. But that's how he dealt with tears.

• 29:15Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 29:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 06

  How about best advice?

• 29:19Speaker 05

  Only babies cry. No. I'm thinking of something my mom said after being hurt by a man. And I was just devastated. And we were walking in New York. She came to visit me. And she said something like, don't learn to protect.

• 29:38Speaker 05

  Yourself from that because love is worth risking that kind of pain. It was something I couldn't imagine in that moment that I would ever get over this person, which is, thinking of it now is insane, but of course, that's the joy of time.

• 29:55Speaker 06

  Sage advice.

• 29:56Speaker 05

  Charlie Kaufman said, "Don't fear, fear failure. Wear failure as a badge of honor. It means you risked failure."

• 30:05Speaker 06

  Here's, here's one that, that I know will be easy for you. What is an unpopular opinion you currently hold?

• 30:11Speaker 05

  Oh, I will say I'm right now enjoying Call of Duty and I, I don't know why I get joy out of this, but the haptics of killing, it's just like this little vibration from the, what, controller when you kill someone. And it's incredibly satisfying and I, I don't understand it.

• 30:39Speaker 06

  I'm really hoping it's the haptics of success, not of killing.

• 30:44Speaker 05

  Oh, that makes sense.

• 30:45Speaker 06

  I, I won the game. What's a prediction you have for the future of comedy?

• 30:51Speaker 05

  Comedy always finds a way. I'm not worried about comedy. There's just such brilliant stuff out there and it's exciting and it's important for someone like me who's getting older to be connected to it and not be out of touch. I mean, I, you can see when comics become very successful, they either stay in touch and grow and change, or they become caricatures of this one's popular thing, or they become totally out of touch. They're not shopping for groceries for themselves anymore. They're not doing for themselves. They're not living a life that is necessarily relatable. So, you know, I, I love comedy.

• 31:35Speaker 05

  I'm a comedian is who I am. I'm assuming you've seen Tim Robinson. I think you should leave.

• 31:41Speaker 06

  I haven't, should I?

• 31:42Speaker 05

  It is so brilliant and so funny and like nothing I've seen before.

• 31:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 06

  I'm excited to check it out.

• 31:52Speaker 05

  Oh, I can't wait. Like, will you email me and let me know? It's, it's really something.

• 31:57Speaker 06

  What is a question you have for me?

• 31:59Speaker 05

  I didn't know this was a part of it. Oh.

• 32:02Speaker 06

  You don't have to ask one.

• 32:03Speaker 05

  What?

• 32:04Speaker 06

  I just, I always feel bad hogging the mic.

• 32:06Speaker 05

  What brought you to where you are? What made you interested in all this stuff? What is, what was your inciting incident in

• 32:15Speaker 05

  seeking more?

• 32:17Speaker 06

  One of the pivotal moments for me was just being a really shy, introverted kid. And struggling with first making friends and then keeping friends. And I think probably when my entire friend group dropped me in middle school after one of them stole my basketball and denied it. It was such a devastating in the moment, but looking back, fascinating moment of why did this happen? And what do I need to understand about people to make sure it never happens again? And it turned out to be really useful because it got me, it got me thinking about what kind of friend I wanted to be and how I wanted to treat other people. And I think it was a character building moment.

• 33:01Speaker 05

  And in the moment when you were a kid, what was that feeling? You would, were you enraged that your friend wouldn't admit that he took it? And that that feeling of being wronged?

• 33:17Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, I see little you right now.

• 33:20Speaker 06

  I had a lot more hair. Yeah, I think at first I was, I was confused because

• 33:29Speaker 06

  why would he do this to me? And then I think it turned into some kind of righteous indignation or moral outrage. And I decided I was not going to let people treat me like that. And if that's who he was, I was going to go find other friends. I don't want to say I'm glad it happened, but it was a useful, it was a useful experience to go through.

• 33:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 06

  And I, I still want the basketball back, Alan, if you're listening.

• 33:55Speaker 05

  But isn't it funny, those things that on their surface seem so silly and are really make an imprint on us, you know?

• 34:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, it still bothers me. I, I loved watching the emotional arc on your face as I told that story, by the way.

• 34:11Speaker 05

  Well, I just, I could see in her eyes, I could see little you.

• 34:16Speaker 06

  Oh. Sarah, before we wrap, I wanted to give you a chance to give us a little preview of your postmortem tour. What should we expect?

• 34:25Speaker 05

  It's called postmortem because it's actually about my dad and my stepmother died a year ago last May, nine days apart, and it's all about it. Just the funny parts. Well, no, all of it, a lot of it.

• 34:40Speaker 06

  I'm sorry, but also I'm glad you found some humor in it.

• 34:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, it's, this is a really soon special for me after the last one, which came out as they were dying. And, you know, it started with my eulogy at my dad's funeral and there was just so much good stuff there. I was like, oh, this is really good, you know? And, uh, and I don't feel guilty about it because I know that they love it, especially him. And it feels good. There's like a little bit of dread every time I do it just because it's fresh-ish and I ache for them. You know, I was very close with them, especially my dad, but really both of them. But it's, it's really nice, too. So that's what it is. It's really not political. It's, you know, and I'm on tour, you know, during the election.

• 35:28Speaker 06

  This is very on brand. Like, you need, you need some help dealing with political stress? I have the perfect antidote for you. We're gonna talk about death. That's gonna be your escape.

• 35:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, let's talk about lighter things, like life and death and things that are guaranteed.

• 35:46Speaker 06

  Well, Sarah, I don't, I don't want to keep you any longer, but I do want to say this has been so fun, so thought provoking and just refreshing more than anything else because I think you're the only person I've met in a long time who loves email as much as I do.

• 36:02Speaker 05

  Thank you. I love talking to you. Take care.

• 36:05Speaker 06

  You too. Bye bye.

• 36:09Speaker 06

  I love Sarah's observation that energy can't be created or destroyed, but it can be changed. Think of it as pro-social jujitsu, taking the anger and rage and pain that people are expressing, and trying to convert it and help them channel it towards something that's more constructive for them and for you. We need more of that in the world.

• 36:32Speaker 06

  Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Mah and Asia Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Sue and Alison Leighton Brown. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winnick, Samaya Adams, Roxane Highlash, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington Rogers.

• 37:00Speaker 05

  I have no idea what I was saying. What was the topic? Oh, my gosh.

• 37:05Speaker 06

  I don't remember.

• 37:06Speaker 05

  Please let this be menopause and not dementia.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest-growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.