Jessica Tarlov on Winning Arguments and Elections

Jessica Tarlov says she has “the coolest job in media for a liberal.” As a Democratic co-host of The Five on Fox News, she knows how to navigate contentious political conversations and make clear arguments based on data and research. Now, she's written a book called I Disagree: Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends. Kara and Jessica talk about her unique approach to finding common ground with others during an intensely polarized time, and why it's worth doing so. They also discuss polling and strategy ahead of the midterms. Plus, what being a "moderate" means today, and how Jessica really feels about her other gig hosting the Raging Moderates podcast alongside Scott Galloway. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  Is Scott behaving? Do you need any help?

• 0:02Speaker 01

  No, I don't. Your vibe is very different than our vibe.

• 0:05Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, I would say so.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  I mean, you've been together so long. I'm new. New and sparkly some days, but sometimes just not his Kara. So.

• 0:13Kara Swisher?

  He hates it. He hates the idea that he has to keep coming back to me.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 0:16Kara Swisher?

  Oh, he does. It's OK. I don't care. I'm very flex. I'm very bendy.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I think of when I think of you. So flexible, that Kara Swisher.

• 0:23Kara Swisher?

  Bendy is different than flexible.

• 0:37Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Jessica Tarlov says that she has, quote, "the coolest job in media for a liberal." This may come as a surprise to a lot of people, including myself. As the lone liberal co-host of The Five on Fox News, she gets interrupted a lot. Nevertheless, she's outspoken and self-assured, presenting arguments based on research and data. And she often wins the arguments on that show despite being a four-to-one competition. That makes sense. Once you find out she has a PhD in political science from the London School of Economics. When she's not working at Fox, Jessica also hosts the podcast Raging Moderates from the Vox Media Podcast Network with my pivot co-host, Scott Galloway.

• 1:23Kara Swisher?

  Now she's got a new book coming out called, I Disagree: Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends. In it, she talks about her surprising career path and shares strategies for finding common ground with others during a time of intense polarization. She also offers research-backed insights on elections and political strategy based on her years as a political strategist and pollster. I have wanted to talk to Jess for a long time. I wrote her when she was in arguments with, I think, Jesse Waters, I'm sure, and said, I don't know how you do this, and have gotten to know her better over the years. I've wanted to have Jess on for a long time. Fox News has not allowed her to come on my podcasts and different things like that. I don't know why that is, but I'm thrilled to have her here now. I think she's a really smart person in a very difficult situation over there at Fox,

• 2:06Kara Swisher?

  and she manages to articulate and win people over. And I find that really interesting. Although I don't know how she does it, I would be perplexed every single day and rage, really. I would be raging. And so I really admire it, and I want to hear from her about what she thinks about. She's not a moderate voice, exactly, although she is on that show, Raging Moderates, but more of someone who is trying to be more commonsensical. And I think it's important we talk about that. Our expert question today comes from Anthony Scaramucci, founder of Skybridge Capital, who in 2017, of course, famously spent 10 days as White House Communications Director. So stick around.

• 2:55Speaker 02

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• 3:24Speaker 03

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• 3:55Speaker 04

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• 3:59Speaker 05

  Nah, I got this. Hmm, OK, I don't got this.

• 4:04Speaker 04

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• 4:15Speaker 04

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• 4:28Kara Swisher?

  Jessica, thank you for coming on On.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 4:32Kara Swisher?

  Finally, I get to talk to you. What is the problem? Why don't they let you talk to me?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Kara, we talk all the time.

• 4:38Kara Swisher?

  I know we do. I know. You're on Scott's podcast. We'll get to that. Your podcast with Scott, really. And then you're on Fox, but they never let me. At Jessica, she's written this wonderful book. And we're going to talk about getting along, which I have questions about.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I know. Questions and skepticism, I'm sure.

• 4:54Kara Swisher?

  Skepticism, yes, exactly. And so, actually, let me start off with that. Why this take?

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Well, the take is just directly correlated to my experience. And I feel like having the perch that I do, that I can offer some insight into a world that most people are just studying from the outside. And when I decided to call it, I disagree with the subtitle, Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends, I knew that there would be pushback, especially from the left. Well, what if I want to lose friends? What if these people are not deserving of my friendship? What if I feel healthier without them? And the book is not about forcing anyone into something that they feel uncomfortable doing, but is a direct reaction to the amount of outreach that I got from people across the political spectrum

• 5:44Speaker 01

  who said, I don't know how you do it. And that's people who love Jesse Waters and Greg Gutfeld, where they just say.

• 5:51Kara Swisher?

  How do you put up with this shit?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Well, how do you put up with this shit? But also, I would like to be able to put up with a little bit more shit in my life, too.

• 5:59Kara Swisher?

  Oh, I see. You're giving, you're right. I see.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Well, I wanted it to be a survival guide if you choose to have these contentious conversations. Because I think that there's obviously a lot of social science to it, you know, how we hear and process information that we disagree with. But in light of the 2024 election, I think it's pretty clear to all of us that if you don't go into uncomfortable spaces, you're going to lose.

• 6:23Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. Politically, at least.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's what I care about most. I care about my friendships and my relationships. But I see myself as an advocate and someone that wants to win elections because I think outcomes are better when Democrats are in office, for the economy, for healthcare, for all the stuff that really matters to people.

• 6:44Kara Swisher?

  So you've said that your job on The Five isn't necessarily to change minds, rather to open minds, and that a lot of the legacy media still don't understand the conservative ecosystem. Talk about what you think people are missing and how it's important to understand that ecosystem and view with an open mind.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  There's still this idea floating around about legitimacy or legitimizing. And, you know, where do you choose to go? Platforming, like, I'm not going on Hassan Piker's stream because I don't want to plat, you know. Well, I guess he is the one with the platform, but you know what I mean. And I just think that that's a load of shit at this point. Like, the world goes on without you. And it doesn't mean that you have to have these conversations. You know, I don't want to go on and have a chat with Nick Fuentes or Tucker Carlson. I don't begrudge anyone who is going to do that and stand their ground and actually push and try to get under the hood of what those ideas are. But the 2024 election, you know, in every single autopsy that we saw,

• 7:47Speaker 01

  one of the main findings was that there were all of these persuadable voters, a lot of them very casual, that were consuming media in a totally different way than we thought, that they weren't part of this MAGA drumbeat where they were listening to Charlie Kirk and Benny Johnson all day, that they were going to places that are more culture-driven, even a flagrant podcast. I was at a conference talking about this issue, and the group, the Democratic Representatives, were saying that they're just desperate to get on culture podcasts. They don't actually want to go on anywhere that has to do with politics anymore, and that those podcasters, smartly so,

• 8:30Speaker 01

  like Speed, for instance, don't want them on there because you don't want to complicate that space for people who are actually coming to enjoy them. So I fundamentally feel like the way that we've been looking at the ecosystem is wrong. And this idea of who the gatekeepers are, or that you are a gatekeeper, as to what gets to infiltrate people's minds or have a real effect on their lives just doesn't exist anymore. And we're playing by a new set of jungle rules, frankly, not even to mention what's going to happen with AI's impact on these elections. You know, it's starting, obviously. So that's kind of how I see the landscape.

• 9:11Kara Swisher?

  So the debates on The Five do get heated, and really, it's all directed at you, and your co-hosts really like to interrupt you. Let's listen to a clip from April. You're discussing accusations of fraud against the civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center with Greg Gutfeld and guest host Lisa Kennedy Montgomery. The DOJ has since indicted a former SPLC official. Let's listen.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  I don't see how we get from, we flipped people within these organizations and paid them for it, to white supremacy is made up, and that it's a complete fallacy. And it's not just the Biden administration that said it was the greatest threat. It was in the Trump administration, too. Chris Wray said this.

• 9:51Speaker 07

  That's BS. Don't play that with us.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  It's literally a quote. So, listen.

• 9:56Speaker 07

  No one believed it. They only said it.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  You basically want to, OK, no one believed it. You're right, no one believed it. But it's just what the guy said, under oath, in testimony. This is a procedure that law enforcement does on every level, where they flip people within organizations like drug traffic.

• 10:13Speaker 07

  They're not law enforcement.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  No, but they take information and they feed it. He said it. They feed it back to local and including the FBI. And we know that the FBI does this. They work with informants all the time for drug trafficking. So that's the problem?

• 10:24Speaker 07

  Yes, that is the problem. In fact, that is, that is one of the tools that the mainstream left media is trying to use to.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Defense Southern Poverty Law Center saying that, well, they were doing what the FBI does.

• 10:34Kara Swisher?

  So talk about this encounter. It was incredibly frustrating. You know what? And they, someone did it the other day where they just said a falsehood and then just said, "Look it up. Google it." And it was wrong. So what, talk about your strategy, because these are techniques that people use. You're wrong. And then, "Don't back it up," or, you know, "Look it up," or, "Here's the real fact," when it's not the real fact. So talk a little bit about your strategy.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Um, my strategy is to have a very serious game plan when I come in, and nothing will get in the way of getting through it. And I have, over the years, figured out different kind of rhetorical devices, including saying, "Oh, no, no, you're right. There's no evidence of this," which does indicate to the viewer that, obviously, that isn't how I feel, and that maybe if they are so inclined, you could go take a look at what we're talking about. And this gets to the opening minds versus changing them. Because if you plant some seed of doubt in there, that what they're hearing over and over again, because it is

• 11:42Speaker 01

  the reinforcement of it, might be wrong, then perhaps at some point, they'll check it out, or it will run counter to their own experience, which is how you can do it about things like, you know, goods and services, healthcare, things like that. With the SPLC, obviously, they're not going to, like, run into them in their real life. But, you know, you just have to really believe in the things that you're saying, and be backed up by data. And then, although I bemoan the impact of our algorithms on a lot of our lives, it does help in these instances, where a clip of me saying this, for instance, which was totally

• 12:25Speaker 01

  true, and the FBI has worked with the SPLC for a very long time. And I'm not here to justify everything that the SPLC does. I'm sure that there's some stuff that I wouldn't be thrilled about. Like, I don't love the idea of paying KKK members, but I understand if they are back-channeling information, that that can be helpful. But the internet then does their thing, and the clip lives on in a different way, not only feeding people who vote like you and me, but also popping up in a middle-of-the-road person's timeline.

• 12:59Kara Swisher?

  Right. Right. So they can, so you're, so, so the technique there for Ida's theory is put, put doubt in people's mind about what's being said, essentially?

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Sowing a bit of doubt, but then also making sure that what you're saying is very data-based and not feelings-based. So at the end of each chapter, that's why I created those tips boxes, because I really wanted people to be able to walk away with tangible takeaways and say, "Oh, I could do that." And for this, for instance, one of them is to think in averages and not anecdotes.

• 13:33Kara Swisher?

  So you're trying to insert, like, facts into the situation, and even if, even if they're arguing back at you. Now, tense moments like this tend to go viral, as clips, of course, and this is what people do. And they're, they're often reposted as incendiary titles, like, "Greg Gutfeld erupts," or, "Greg Gutfeld shuts down Jessica Tarlov." And you make a distinction about, and I'm going to quote you, "How most partisans consume you in clips and those who watch the full show." What's the difference? Why does it matter? And how does that repackaging of clips or social media play into, I guess, Fox's broader strategy? And how do you then counter that with the kind of tips you're giving in your book?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Well, if you're purely going on clips and the media that feasts off of those clips, like, either the pro-democracy media and the Midas touches of the world, or the right does the same thing, you would think that Greg Gutfeld and I utterly despise each other and cannot be in the same room. That it's like, you walk in one minute before the show and sprint out the other side. If you watch the whole show, you see in the back half that there are a lot of segments that are focused on more light things, you know, talking about culture, or, you know, dating culture, robot dogs, whatever it is. And actually,

• 14:54Speaker 01

  those are the highest rated. So our last segment of the show, which is called "One More Thing," where we can share something personal, or we do a lot of stuff revolving around pets, because everyone loves pets, people love that the most, because that's where most of the personality comes through. And I think that that's important, not because everybody has to be best friends, but because it is possible to have functioning relationships with people with whom you vehemently disagree with, and find a way to a place where you are not going absolutely insane. And I'm very clear in the book, and certainly, you

• 15:36Speaker 01

  know, anyone who talks to me about this, that I put the burden of maintaining those relationships, to a large degree, on my own shoulders, that I know that it's up to me. If we have a particularly contentious back and forth on the show, I decide what happens in the commercial break. I can either be normal and talk about kids, or whatever else is going on in life, or I can continue it. And I choose to save that for times when it really matters to me, and where I feel like some line has been crossed.

• 16:10Kara Swisher?

  Well, give an, give an example of this, using this technique. I mean, one could argue, like, you don't kibbitz with fascists, right? Like, I'm thinking Jennifer Welch's book is, like, not today fascist, essentially.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Jennifer Welch's brand of politics is a lot more rough and tumble than mine. She also occupies a very different space, and I would argue is reaching a very different audience. I mean, she's not converting people necessarily. She's reinforcing something. I think their voice, hers and Angie's, you know, coming from Oklahoma City, it's very important to know what goes on in those blue dots in red states. And obviously, their backgrounds are very interesting, but it's a totally different ballgame. And, I mean, they've created this huge platform for themselves, but that kind of language, I mean, you just

• 17:05Speaker 01

  wouldn't use that in a place of work. And I have taken to heart how many Americans have shown up at the polls and voted for people that we have called fascists and Nazis for a very long time. So obviously, they don't think that that, it works. Or they think economic policy is more important, or an immigration policy that involves a closed border. And so I don't want to be a Debbie Downer about everything, and, you know, I like to throw a haymaker every once in a while. But people are much more culturally conservative than we thought that they were, and actually, more fiscally liberal, which I find very interesting, that you could actually be using more of that language, like how Jon Ossoff

• 17:50Speaker 01

  is talking about the Epstein class, and the corruption class, and the billionaires, James Talarico, as well. I didn't actually expect that would be tolerated at this level, that it has, the disparity has gotten so wide, and income inequality is so enormous, that someone from a state like Georgia could be talking the same as Bernie Sanders, essentially. But when it comes to cultural issues, that's just not where people are. And I know, and I get into this a lot with some of my more progressive friends, about, you know, trans athletes, for instance, and, you know, you give an inch, they're going to take a mile. Why do you even need to talk about, you're talking about 10 people on the NCAA level?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  And my point has always been, we can't go around telling people who are essentially running a sanity check on us. Like, do you think there's a biological advantage to someone who went through puberty as a man? Yeah. No matter how much gender-affirming care you have had, there remains certain advantages. And if you can't say that, then they look at you like you've lost the plot. This is how Andy Beshear deals with it.

• 19:01Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right. I get that. We're going to deal with trans issues later. I have some, I think they've made it into a bigger deal than it is.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  They absolutely have. But if you just say, "No, I won't," this is like, "I'm, you're not legitimate," or, "I'm not platforming."

• 19:14Kara Swisher?

  It's like eating the cats and eating the dogs, to me, at this point. Speaking of what you were talking about, every episode gets a question from an outside expert. Let's listen to yours.

• 19:20Speaker 07

  Hey, guys. Anthony Scaramucci here, founder of Skybridge, but also the host of The Rest is Politics US, and a man that has been fired faster than any Fox News host in history. So Jess, I have ruined more than one Thanksgiving dinner conversation. So here's my question. What do you say to the uncle who

• 19:41Speaker 06

  Doesn't want to have the civil conversation, who just wants to win? How do you talk that person down, Jess? That's the question.

• 19:48Kara Swisher?

  Now, apply some of these concepts. Here you are at Thanksgiving dinner.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  I love that Anthony was mine. I was wondering who I was gonna get. Um, so there's a lot in the book about this and I practice it for basically listening to the other four of my co-hosts, which is the lost art of listening. And people are very desperate to be heard and for it to look like you're actually processing what they're saying. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with it or go along with even any aspect of it. But too much of our political discourse, and especially in these family gatherings, because I've had this back and forth with, I have an uncle who voted for Trump because of Israel. Because that's, you know, one of the big fissures going on now on our side of the fence.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  And I realized I was just too quick to cut him off all the time. Or to bring something else in that I thought countered his point. And when I sat back and let him go, I realized actually that he started arguing against himself without even noticing it, because he started bringing in other facts on the ground, where he would say, well, but of course it hasn't panned out when it comes to the economy. And actually, what's going on in Iran, you know, I'm a little bit concerned, kind of like the Mark Levin set of concerns about the war. And so letting somebody get it out and be heard, I think is the first thing that you have to do.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  And it also really frustrates them when you are calm. It makes, they get more enjoyment out of it if it turns hot on both sides. And the same thing is true on the five. If you notice, maybe a few times a year, I actually get really like flustered and angry and, you know, like beating the table. But in general, I'm just pretty cool about it, which I think diffuses the situation. You can send that signal to them, like when I say, oh, you know, you're right, where they know, I obviously don't think that. But that people just feel better when they have been heard and they are more likely to hear you if you have afforded them that space.

• 21:59Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm. Now, on the opposite side, that means you facilitating the comedy and not them, right? Like, on one part of it, I hadn't gotten in an argument, I was in Kentucky and I was talking about tech stuff there. And, you know, immediately it started to get into liberal leads from coastal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and I said, I was like, you know, you don't like us normal people. And I put my head up and I said, I'm a fucking normal person. Like, why do you get to win the normal fight, right? Like, I noticed I'm here and you're never in San Francisco. So why, I'm here, like, why do I have to come here? And why do you get to be called the normal person? And we then ended up having an interesting conversation.

• 22:43Kara Swisher?

  I'm like, you're not interested in my life in any way whatsoever, or what I have to think. And so I think we spent a lot of time coddling these groups. I mean, and I think part of the problem, you know, for you to deal with on your show, and again, it was interesting, you know, you're trying to get to something. At some point, it's like arguing with someone who will never, ever change. Do you feel that these techniques make people change?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  I, I've seen evidence of it in not only behaviors in terms of how they deal with me, but in little bits of information that I'm either talking about on air or even in commercial breaks, seeping into commentary. I mean, much hay in the last few weeks has been made of how lucid Jesse Waters seems about Abdul al-Sayed, or about Jon Ossoff, or Natalie Harp, right? That he was like, I'm not gonna pretend that I'm so offended that Jon Ossoff, you know, said that about her. And this happened also a couple of years ago about Wes Moore, because I'd been talking about Wes Moore a lot in commercial breaks and pointing out, you know, he's out there

• 23:51Speaker 01

  at the tailgate, because, you know, they're obsessed with definitions of masculinity, right? And how real men don't vote for Democrats and then, you know, Hassan Piker on the Jumbotron and Aspito or whatever is going on at their conferences. But what I was talking about in the breaks and drawing Jesse's attention to, like Jon Ossoff, how much work he does in his district, and that's why he was getting these crossover endorsements from Republican mayors, he brought it up on a day, actually, I wasn't even on the show. And I do think that that's a result of, I mean, we're in this contained environment and everyone, no one else's life is gonna look like mine, right? And no one who's reading this book has this job.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  And I, I'm compensated to go to work. So I'm not trying to make this out, like, it's the same thing as having to deal with Anthony's uncle necessarily. But the more time we spend in their spaces and talking about not just quote unquote "normal" things, but the things that actually matter to voters, because that's where I think the big disconnect is. Like, they would still tell you, or some would, that like trans issues is gonna be on top of the ballot, or that even immigration is going to be in the same way. You know, people might have been holding up mass deportation now signs, but in reality, they wanted a closed border, right? And they got that.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  And now they can see what Stephen Miller is doing and the terror that ICE is wreaking all over the country.

• 25:26Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm. I guess, I guess it's more is like, why are we in the business of educating? Because they win elections, that's really your...

• 25:34Speaker 01

  You have no choice.

• 25:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, right, right.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  That's honestly how I feel about it. I happen to also get along with them. I've known them a very long time, you know, families. I mean, you've worked at huge organizations, you know about relationships that you have with people with different sets of beliefs, ideological backgrounds. But we have to win elections. There is no change that is possible without owning those seats. You know, you can listen to Congressman Garcia talk about all the plans for what's gonna happen with oversight, right? The investigations that they're gonna do. That doesn't happen unless we win, and honestly, win big. It has to be too big to rig, because they're going to try for that as well. And I just, if you're not in the arena and you're not competing, and there are different

• 26:19Speaker 01

  ways to do this, you know, this is like a full body contact approach that I have. But even people who are journalists, like what you've been doing over the years, right? You know, putting these ideas and, you know, essentially starting counterculture movements against the way that society is moving vis a vis tech. You're doing that through your interviews.

• 26:38Kara Swisher?

  You're talking about making the argument, right? And that's...

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Well, making the argument, but in the places that matter.

• 26:42Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  There's a lot of blue sky bubbling that goes on.

• 26:46Kara Swisher?

  I would agree, I would agree.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm not here to throw stones at anybody. If that's what you want to do, that's your business. It just is not changing any hearts and minds. And also, I think that it's reinforcing a reality to yourself that is inconsistent with real life.

• 27:04Kara Swisher?

  True, I do think the other members of the five are incredibly cynical. I think it's, it's a performative game with a lot of them. Some of them believe it. I think a lot of them are playing a game, and it's a super dangerous game. That's why it's like, why even engage with people who are so, because they get through to people, that's your point.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Can I just say something about that? So, first of all, I, I do think that in general, conservatives believe in more of this than you would think. Because there's like this normalcy test that you kind of put out there, where you say, okay, well, we're all reading the same jobs report, right? Or we're all seeing the same GDP report. And it's quite obvious what's going on here. You know, whatever, however you want to do it, like the markers of how the war in Iran is going, et cetera. And then something that I've learned over the years, even before I was on the five and obviously spending most of my time with this set group of people, but just floating around and, and meeting different folks and coming on their shows and talking to them,

• 28:06Speaker 01

  is that there is a much bigger, I don't know if permission structure is the right term to use for this, but they are so much more willing to excuse things that may not be going well or that they don't like, in service to the greater goal, which we don't do, right?

• 28:28Kara Swisher?

  That's been a Republican hallmark for a long time.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Totally, but it's funny because they think that we fall in line. It's so funny, because I'm like, we would be doing a lot better, actually, if we would stop sniping at each other like this. But they just, to some degree, don't care if they believe in the larger set of goals or frankly, in the person. I mean, the, the personal faith that they have in Donald Trump is like nothing that I've seen.

• 28:57Kara Swisher?

  There is also, you know, when I started seeing it for the first time, I studied propaganda in college, that was my area. I was like, wow, they're using all the propaganda techniques. It's really interesting to watch the reinforcement, the constant repetition, the entertainment, the demonization, you know, it's the same techniques. And so part of me wonders what they actually believe versus what's a performance. And maybe it blends, like you said, it blends into everything. But a lot of the time, I find it deeply, deeply cynical, especially since most of them live in very fancy places and away from most of the people they purport to be hanging out with, you know? They're not people of the people, would be my guess.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  No, everyone is a, you know, upper middle class to mega rich person that gets to wear HD hair and makeup, you know, for a living. It's rarefied air. But it doesn't mean that it isn't communicating a belief system that does resonate with...

• 29:52Kara Swisher?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  The rubes or whatever, you know? And that's how they can be successful about it. What is your counter argument to it? Or how should it be?

• 30:04Kara Swisher?

  I think to make a really good argument, I suppose Obama, like, right? There's a positive come into our bigger place where we're not hating each other, kind of thing. I think there's a real resonant. I think that that's the opposite side of America, which is, there's a hate side and it's really strong, and a fear side, and then there's a hope side that does, that's why Obama resonated. You're making a good argument for things, for the way things could be for everybody.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Totally, and that's how you have miracles.

• 30:32Kara Swisher?

  That's right. We'll be back in a minute.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece.

• 31:09Kara Swisher?

  And head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com. I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 31:52Speaker 05

  What if we told you there was one thing you could eat to reduce your risk of death by about a quarter? Interested? And what if we added that this magical substance can dramatically lower your cholesterol, improve your mood, and keep your weight stable? No, it's not protein. It's actually fiber, the least sexy, most overlooked nutrient of all. But what is fiber? How could one nutrient do all those amazing things? And how can you get enough? Is a powder you stir into some water gonna do it for you? All that, plus the strange tale of the gorilla poop-obsessed father of cornflakes in the latest episode of Gastropod. Find Gastropod and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:37Kara Swisher?

  Let's get into this, what's going on. Last week, the Republican Party had a convention in Dallas, or what's been called Trumpapalooza. I wish we would stop making those things. And President Trump announced that he would give a, quote, $5,000 Trump dividend to every adult citizen in the US if Republicans win in November. This would cost more than $1 trillion. He's made similar promises many times.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Many.

• 33:02Kara Swisher?

  Talk a little bit about this, because I think he's trying to counter the idea that the economy sucks and we need more money, or you're taking our money. You just a second ago said they, they will take his word for everything. Is that shifting? Or what was your perception?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  I didn't say they'd take his word for everything. I said that they believe in him and that he is stewarding the country in the right direction. Listen, Jesse made fun of it. He said it was akin to an enticement, like when you go on a date with someone, right? And you're kind of hedging, like, you know. And so, in that sense, he knows exactly what it is, that this isn't going to happen, and that it feels ickier to call it a bribe, which is what I was calling it, and you would call it, and any sane person would call it. I think largely, though, that people know this is not happening, and that none of this has happened. The tariff dividend check, the savings from the healthcare, there was one other, too.

• 33:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, there were a couple.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  So I think this is the phase where there is an opportunity for a big Democratic win in the midterms, because people are glazed over to this. You know, the ratings were worse than the average night on Fox. So when Trump was talking in the 10:00 PM hour, if Gutfeld had run, it would have done better than, which I think is saying something.

• 34:24Kara Swisher?

  Now, he also mockingly talked about affordability, said prices were dropping, they are not. Is it wearing off? Because it's interesting how much Republicans are campaigning in bumper stickers, as you've put it. And what effect does that have? And especially when you're making an argument, your book's about making an argument. What is the argument here? He's lying, which is something you could say any given day and twice on Tuesday.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if you're making the counterargument against Trump right now, you could say, you know, there's a laundry list of promises that he has made to you that should fill up your pocket after he has robbed you of what was in your pocket in the first place. But without a strong counter, i.e. what you are going to get if you vote for the other guy, I think that you have a, a big electoral problem on your hands. And I know, you know, I have spoken to leadership about this. I'm sure that you have as well. You know, you talk to people who, you know, are very influential on Capitol Hill. And I've said, until you

• 35:25Speaker 01

  have the three policies that define the midterm elections for Democrats, where it's not just, I'm going to reverse everything that that guy did. It has to be a positive affirmation of what the future could look like. And I've made up numbers, like, I don't know if 10 million is the right number, but why are we not saying 10 million affordable housing units will be built? Right? Like, there has to be some smart reforms to Obamacare, not just putting the subsidies back in, you know, because Obamacare was still too expensive for people. It's obviously way too expensive now. You know, are you gonna do, remember from the first term where Trump said for every new regulation, we're gonna cut 10?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  That's what Mom Donnie is doing here in New York. People are going bananas for it.

• 36:12Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right. You have to do our ticket. So when you're in the, I disagree.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Those are my bumper stickers.

• 36:17Kara Swisher?

  So I disagree isn't enough. It's I disagree and, is what you're saying.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a full argument. I just wanted I disagree, because that is the baseline reality of majority of the conversations that I'm having with my colleagues. And there are different ways to back into that. There are different tools that you can use, you know, different olive branches. I call it the soft start, you know, where you have to find some way to create connective tissue, not only for the people you're sitting next to, but to signal to, you know, three and a half to four million people that you're not there just to explode bombs and collect a paycheck and get out of there.

• 36:53Kara Swisher?

  Right, and be sort of the liberal voice, the single voice. Let me do another topic, then. Speakers included Vice President JD Vance. He touted Trump's immigration enforcement efforts. You were critical of blue city mayors who refuse to cooperate with ICE when it comes to, quote, "turning over people who have committed crimes on American soil." But I just spoke with three Democratic mayors, and they're concerned in part because ICE is turning people with no criminal records, which has been well documented and well reported, because they're running out of people. Like, you know, if, essentially, that's what it is.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Well, when you have a 3,000 person a day quota, you're gonna start picking up the wrong guys.

• 37:26Kara Swisher?

  You're not gonna find all those criminals. There's not that many of them. So break down the criticism, and where are mayors refusing to turn over people who've committed crimes on US soil? I haven't yet to see that.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  It was more about it being part of the way that we talk about immigration and ICE right now. One example, and I, I think Kathy Hochul's doing an awesome job. I feel like she has really, I mean, you, do you remember, I guess, a year ago, eight months to a year ago, when there were real conversations around if she had a challenger, maybe she wouldn't make it through, and recruiting Richie Torres? And I think she's just been a total badass. She handled Mom Donnie's campaign and election, I think, perfectly. But one example that I would use is what happened to Sheridan Gorman, who is a, a New Yorker, she, 18 years old, from Mike Lawler's district, Republican, was murdered

• 38:19Speaker 01

  by someone who was here illegally in Illinois. And there have been hearings where Jessica Gorman, Sheridan Gorman's mother, has spoken that. And it got really testy, and Congresswoman Jayapal was like, we just keep doing this over and over, and there's a grieving mother sitting there. Now, do I think that she's being used as a political pawn? Yes, to some degree. Do I think that that matters in the optics of it and in those kinds of moments? Not so much. And so, there, I felt like there was an opportunity, like we saw Tim Walz take after the murders of Renee Good and Alex Preddy, to signal the places where you

• 39:00Speaker 01

  think there can be valuable cooperation, and that you will call Tom Homan up right now, and you will say, let's figure this out, because we can't have another Sheridan Gorman or another Lake and Riley. So that's more what I was talking about when I say this kind of cooperation.

• 39:16Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  A lot of it is a messaging signal, because for people who do care about this, and we all do, no one wants these young women slaughtered by people who have no business being in this country. Like, if you got in here illegally, and you want to start a new life and contribute, which most of them do, and pay into Social Security, I think immigrants are the, one of the more incredible facets of our society, not just as human beings, but also, obviously, in what they do for the economy. But we continue to talk about it in the wrong way. And just the drumbeat of abolish ICE, or I'm not talking to those guys, the side by side with a grieving

• 39:57Speaker 01

  mother, it doesn't make us look that great. Now, is that swaying people? Are they showing up to vote purely based on that? No.

• 40:07Kara Swisher?

  Barely, barely at this point. Interesting.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  But it doesn't, sure.

• 40:10Kara Swisher?

  They should be very, they should be very ahead. They should be extraordinary.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yes. A lot of that, I think, is also just quality of life, like, people's economic

• 40:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, they feel, yes, yes.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  They're poorer than they were, and wages are not going up and all of that stuff. So it makes it harder for you to say, yeah, actually, I think Republicans are better on this. But I would say, if you go down the line reputationally, and ask people, you know, do you think that Democrats are taking this as seriously as you would like to? They would still say no. And they would still say that these DAs are too liberal. You know, that's why people love Dan Lurie and your beloved San Francisco. You know, Mom Donnie, who is one of the smarter politicians that we have, certainly, you know, it's very clear why he is making sure that he stands shoulder to shoulder with Jessica Tisch at every opportunity, right? To say, I'm going to give you universal childcare, pre-K, parents take a, I mean,

• 41:04Speaker 01

  you guys, moms with young kids, that gift of four hours of free babysitting?

• 41:09Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Just life-changing stuff.

• 41:12Kara Swisher?

  We avail ourselves to it right now, even at this moment. But one of the things that you noted before is this trans issue. A video montage at the convention highlighted Trump's efforts to ban transgender athletes from women's sports. Roughly 1% of Americans are trans, and very few in sports. But they remain the target of Fox News and of the GOP more broadly. I want to play a clip of the conversation you just had with the Bulwark's Sarah Longwell discussing the issue. This is an enormously common response that I get in focus groups of Trump voters, actually, where they're like, they're mad about the war in Iran because they know Gavin

• 41:45Speaker 05

  Prices are high. They know prices are high in general, so they're upset. Maybe about tariffs, but some of the, they'll be like, but you know what? He's got trans people out of sports and so it's, it's okay.

• 41:56Kara Swisher?

  What is the best way to respond to these attacks on trans rights and win elections? Using your techniques, your patented techniques?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, I don't want to cede my time to Andy Beshear, but having Andy Beshear answer this is, you know, the best way forward. He runs a ruby red state and people love him because of how he can talk about reality and compassion and making sure that nothing that goes on vis a vis the trans community turns into an erosion of civil rights. And that's where I think that you have to be here. I think that you have to call out the common sense position. This is an 80 20 issue that too many Democrats, I think, beholden to special interest groups or some, you know, fringe position were afraid to say, yes, I know that there is a biological

• 42:46Speaker 01

  advantage, but over my dead body, will I let this turn into an erosion of civil rights, especially for kids that just want to play soccer with their friends? And drawing that line between what is competitive and when there is money on the line and just kids being kids, I think, is where you have to go from this. But it does start with a recognition of the fact that, yes, there may only be 10 NCAA athletes. And one of the, I say more seminal experiences that I had vis a vis this issue is I moderated a conversation at the 92nd Street Y about trans athletes. And there was a for and against, and the against is a Duke Law professor. And for was a woman who is also an academic.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  She transitioned later in life, both competitive runners. And the trans woman acknowledges the biological advantage. She just doesn't think that it should affect what she calls meaningful competition. So she has shifted it from our traditional understanding of competition to say, does this meaningfully make a difference? When you think of the trickle down, right? That there are anti-trans bills in dozens of states as a result and the Supreme Court cases. And that, to me, feels like the more honest way to have this conversation. And, you know, she's saying, take it from me, as someone who lived into adulthood as a man, that there are, these differences persist, right?

• 44:14Speaker 01

  In bone density and, you know, speed advantage.

• 44:18Kara Swisher?

  You know, who actually makes a great argument? Yuval Harari in Sapiens. He said, there's male and female, but then there's woman and man, and those are different things. A man can be a woman, you know, but there are male and female biology. It was interesting. But the fact that it became a story, you know, it started with bathrooms and it didn't work.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  And North Carolina said, well, actually, we don't give a fuck.

• 44:39Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it didn't work in bathrooms, but it did work in sports, which was interesting.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Well, but don't you think that it actually, it worked in sports and by extension in this idea about undocumented trans people in prisons because of a box that Kamala Harris checked? But that it was more an economic argument. Everything is about fairness.

• 44:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  And feeling that the game is rigged against you. And the, they, them ad was about the economy more than it was about trans people.

• 45:07Kara Swisher?

  That's an interesting.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  So I think that if you frame everything, like Jon Ossoff is doing, like James Talarico is doing, Josh Turck, you know, some of our next gen best communicators, they're understanding that the nitty gritty of what happened with Leah Thomas and Riley Gaines doesn't matter as much as you being able to tell people, I want life in America to be fair. And that's everything from how you can do economically to what goes on in your kids' schools.

• 45:36Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Could Russian sabotage drag Europe into a wider war?

• 46:24Speaker 06

  This scenario where there is a verified kinetic sabotage attack on an airport or rail hub in a European city that results in civilian fatalities, this would present a very hard question for NATO. What do you do? I'm John Finer. And I'm Jake Sullivan. We're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, how could Europe respond to Russian sabotage and how far should it go? The episode is out now. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

• 46:57Kara Swisher?

  You describe horse race polling as a hamster wheel and say that, quote, "Nothing about polling is inevitable." Polls are getting beaten up by a lot of people. What should you be paying attention to? Is it these prediction markets? Where should people go? Because they do still rely on these things or sort of want to know what's happening.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  I thought that the prediction markets are going to be influential and around a lot longer than I now think they will be. You know, the whole narrative around Francesca Hong, the Wisconsin candidate for governor, and what had happened even in the primary in Michigan with Haley Stevens and Abdul El-Sayed. You know, people started to take prediction markets as polling, right? And they said, oh, there's a 99% chance that this outcome is going to happen, which isn't at all what the polls were saying. And then there's also the question of the methodology of these polls and understanding, like, who has an A rating and a B down to who has an F rating? And I think that can be really dangerous.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  And as someone who worked in polling and likes to pay attention to methodologies and the rating systems, my hope for people and what I argue and I disagree is that you spend time looking at trend lines versus what can be often an outlier result. And so if a flare goes up and you say, oh, that's kind of interesting, right? That we found this. And that's how it gets onto shows like, onto Pivot, right? Where there's this, you know, crazy kind of counterculture finding, like, is this start of something new? And then to stick with it. And that's why the daily jockeying over the horse race isn't that useful.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  And people who actually run campaigns, like if you listen to a panel with everyone, you know, from a Dan Pfeiffer to a Tony Fabrizio, they would say, like, in the last few days, you just got to get out there, right? Like, you got to knock on doors and, and push people to vote. So my point was to help people see polling for what it is, which is a snapshot of a moment in time. And then to think of it as a broader trend line or a relationship to other data points where you can then build a fuller picture of what's going on. But, you know, I know that there are people who see what I do on The Five and my co-hosts will make fun of me about it, like, oh, Jessica, have you got a poll for that?

• 49:19Speaker 01

  And yes, I always have a poll for that, but I want to make sure that it's part of a broader story on what's going on.

• 49:26Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. But is there one that you find worth reading? I mean, when they say, is there a poll for that, they're essentially saying, oh, stop messing with us with facts. We hate facts.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yes, but then it's fun to push back on that. Like, oh, I'm sorry, you don't like that. Like Greg and I have been having this back and forth lately where he just says, I don't know who that is, when I bring someone up. And I'm like, well, it's on you actually to figure out who this person is that's in elected office or running for, you know, a big position. But there are also different ways of doing politics. And that's part of what I argue and I disagree and my experience, which is there are a lot of people who want to get their politics in, you know, a PhD, you know, bow box, which is how I do it, right? Where I say, like, you know, I've scanned all the right material and these are the main points that I've picked out. And then other people want to hear from folks that they like, right?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Or who see the world in a way that's similar to theirs. And we can sit here and bitch about it and say, like, I don't like that this is the reality of how some people are getting their news or how they see the world, but that's life. And this is the way the game is played right now.

• 50:34Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, or else you figure out a better way to do it. Speaking of which, Democrats are going on Fox. You know, they've sort of taken anything in addition to regulars like Pete Buttigieg and Gavin Newsom. We're now seeing people like Democratic Senate candidate Abdul El-Sayed. He didn't really spar with Jesse Waters. I think Jesse Waters fell deeply in love with him. It was very interesting.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  It was a very cute 25 minutes.

• 50:54Kara Swisher?

  It was really interesting. He's so easy. That's what I thought. What a pushover he is for like a swole man who's very charming. Puck noted, the episode performed very well. Total audience was up 15% over the quarterly average. So obviously it's good for Fox to start to embrace Democrats in a weird way because they're getting, it wasn't as much a fight as a love fest, it seemed to me. Do Democrats get something out of it?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 51:19Kara Swisher?

  What? To explain.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that there are two schools of thought. So there's one set of reasons to go on Fox, which is, or in conservative media, this could happen anywhere, right? That you go on a podcast and, you know, get a clip of you explaining something to Joe Rogan. I guess, should we call him conservative now? I, you know, I don't really know. He's whatever Rogan is. But so you can get a clip that can go viral and you can fundraise off of it. And that works. You know, there is a reason that Pete Buttigieg, when he introduced himself at the DNC in 2024, he said something like, you know, hi, I'm Pete. You might recognize me from Fox News.

• 51:59Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. It's funny, yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's obviously become an enormous part of his identity that way. And so I think there's a case for that, if that's what you want to do. And Abdul got that out of his interaction with Jesse. But then there's a second reason to do it, which, you know, I'm not running for any elected office, so I'm in a different category. But I think what I do is, is more in this. And you see it with some of the electeds, like Jason Crow comes on a lot, for instance, the Democratic congressman from Colorado. And His reason for coming on is to not only be able to get a clip, right?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Or, you know, some, some good distillation of a counterpoint that he's making to a Republican orthodoxy, but also to have a real conversation with somebody that sees the world differently and matters a lot to people who show up and vote and are potentially persuadable.

• 53:02Kara Swisher?

  I think you're right. I think it does work better going the Fox direction than it is, say, people on CNN, like, who are villainous, like Scott Jennings. I think it only solidifies Democrats not like. I don't think he brings people to his side, which I think you do, actually.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  No, I think what Scott does is very much for the converted already. Like, my colleagues love Scott and think what he does is amazing because he, like, walks in and throws these bombs up.

• 53:29Kara Swisher?

  But I don't think it persuades the audience, which I think you do, actually. I think you might actually persuade some of the audience. You know, I'm thinking of my mom. She said the other day, "Oh, Jess Harloff made a good point." And I was like, "Oh, she did, didn't she?" You know?

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Your mom was just impressed that I could get, like, down on the ground, eight months pregnant when I first met her to talk to her.

• 53:48Kara Swisher?

  That's true. But you just signed a new three-year contract with Fox, and you play an important role in the five. Your husband described you as the wrestling heel in the villain, but I don't think that's...

• 53:58Speaker 01

  I did not love that. The rest of his interview was very cute.

• 54:00Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I know. But you have talked about many of the hateful comments you receive, including death threats practically after you personally attacked on social media by President Trump, which is often, like, it's really odd. I guess he likes to...

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Well, he loves the show, and I'm ruining it for him.

• 54:14Kara Swisher?

  Right, exactly. Do you have reservations about it? Is that representative of most of the feedback you get from viewers? Often, the noisy hateful people tend to be noisy and hateful and very small. How do you deal with that?

• 54:26Speaker 01

  So, in the real world, the Fox viewers, and you have experience with them, are the nicest people. And they might say something like, you know, "I don't, I don't like your politics, young lady, but your kids are just adorable." Because we used to show pictures of our kids. Now, nobody does that anymore because of how fucked up the world is. Or, a lot of, which was part of the impetus for writing this book, like, "I don't know, I don't know how you do it with Jesse." Right? He, he's gotta stop. Like, his New Year's resolution the last four years has been to interrupt me less. He has failed across the board. So, out in the real world, it's very warm.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  And I think especially being on this particular show that is such a, a continued part of people's lives, like, the appointment TV on a daily basis, I think really helps with that. I would say also the fact that Harold Ford Jr. does it half the week makes a difference. If it was me every day, perhaps it would be too much for some people. But I'm their crazy Aunt Jessica, and it just works. I've had some apologies in real life. I write about that in the book, a woman who came up to me and said, you know, "I don't know if you saw my tweets." And I said, you know, "My, my Twitter is a cesspool. If you called me the C-word, I didn't notice. It was just a Tuesday."

• 55:51Speaker 01

  But anyway, she wanted to apologize for doing that. And that was very meaningful to me. So, being part of their world feels like a really big privilege to me. And I don't think that many people in our space have that, where I'm part of the liberal ecosystem, especially having raging moderates now.

• 56:12Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I'm gonna get to that. But in your book, you know, again, I want to get back, because we started talking about this, you advocate for finding a new middle that promotes understanding of shared struggles and commonalities at the same time. You do work for a network, and alongside co-hosts, you've done a lot to polarize Americans. I think if I had to stack rank problems, I would say gerrymandering social media and Fox News, including the spreading of 2020 election conspiracy lies. Talk about reconciling your, quote, "Fox family," as you call them, with the ideas and policies they have. Does it ever get under your skin? Like, I don't think I could take it, honestly.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Sure, it gets under my skin. I'm openly frustrated and flummoxed on the show with some degree of regularity. I was talking about how there was no evidence of election fraud just on the last, on Friday. And Jesse brought up some ballot stuffer named Wanda. You know, I have no idea what he's talking about. And I do try to understand some of these theories, like, around Hunter Biden, there was a whole web of characters and diamonds and Mexican billionaires and Bulgarian something. And I tried to figure it out a little bit. But eventually, I just, and this is when Janine was still on the show, I just said,

• 57:31Speaker 01

  like, "I can't follow all of this crap." Right? Whatever web you've created to somehow justify the idea that what Hunter Biden is doing is the worst thing that's ever happened in America, you know? I just can't get there. But I, I do think that it is important to show up and to be a backstop against things that could take deeper hold if...

• 58:01Kara Swisher?

  If it wasn't pushback against...

• 58:02Speaker 01

  If there wasn't pushback. But it's not just any pushback. There is, I think, a way to do it that doesn't make people's censors go off in, in such a way that they can't hear anything that you're saying. And that doesn't mean day one, day two, day three, day four, but maybe day 50, maybe day 100. I mean, Sarah Longwell, you know, in her new book, and you just did an event with her about this, she talks about this all the time with her focus groups, right? How long it sometimes takes for it to permeate with people that reality wasn't as they were told.

• 58:41Kara Swisher?

  It was sort of like that SNL skit, that maybe he might be lying, this SNL skit.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Maybe, right. And whatever is comfortable for you, vis a vis that. I, I'm not here to be the feelings police or frankly, the words police, because we tried that, and everybody said that we were sticks in the mud and didn't want to vote for us.

• 59:01Kara Swisher?

  Do you notice a vibe shift at Fox, though? Will it be different, you know, going forward, especially if Trump takes a big splat that looks like it's coming?

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Like, if he loses the election? And yeah, I'm...

• 59:13Kara Swisher?

  They kind of want to go that way every now...

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Honestly, it's better to be on offense than playing defense is hard. I mean, especially the last two years of the Biden administration.

• 59:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, Murdoch's not comfortable with it. He slaps at him quite a bit. He tries.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  I don't, I mean, a lot of this is way above my pay grade. But it is easier when you can just sit there and criticize and criticize and criticize. And I, I think that people know what the courts said about all of this fraud. There were 66 cases, and they won none of them. So, I imagine that's how we're going to be talking about elections. And I think it's a testament to, you know, like, Bret Baer has to basically every day tweet out in response to someone who brings this bullshit about the Arizona call, that it was absolutely correct, and this was the timing of it versus other networks, et cetera.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  You know? And we'll continue climbing that hill with people who don't believe that 2020 was real. But I think that the combination of people doing so poorly economically and Trump not delivering on any of these promises, plus what will hopefully be a big electoral win, should be enough even for the most ardent Trump supporters. And you see this, whatever their issue is, if it's the economy, but with the Epstein files, it's a lot of people who you never would have thought would turn on him.

• 1:00:48Kara Swisher?

  Oh, I, I knew that. I, I've been paying attention a lot to those groups that talk about it. And it was their, I always call it the bearing wall of their movement. Let's finish up talking about two things. Raging moderates, which you co-host with Scott Galloway. I always call you his side piece. Sorry for doing that, but that's okay. It's fine. I can't...

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  You can handle...

• 1:01:06Kara Swisher?

  You can handle it, Jess. But he's your side piece, how about that? So, is it different than being on a television show? I mean, obviously, you and I have different experiences with Scott, but probably similar in lots of ways.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, to have the opportunity for a long-form answer is awesome. And, you know, Scott is just a hugely interesting person to get to talk to. It's different kinds of expertises, right, that you bring to it. So, you know, his background is obviously not in politics. So, we're on a bit of different kinds of journeys together, I guess, that way. And I think that...

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  You know, the space is very saturated, obviously, but it has been really affirming of what we're doing, that the idea of a raging moderate, which is essentially a fiery populist that knows that you also have to persuade people to be able to win your election, like an Alyssa Slotkin or a Jon Ossoff, has been great. And I know it's not very fashionable right now to even talk about anything vis a vis moderation. And all the polls say this in the focus groups, but having the raging in there at the beginning seems to let us sneak through. And I'm just having a really good time. And then, you know, my job at Fox is not interviewing people or having guests. It's a set show.

• 1:02:33Kara Swisher?

  Right, so you get to do that, to talk to people?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Kara Swisher?

  Is Scott behaving? Do you need any help?

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  No, I don't. You guys, your vibe is very different than our vibe.

• 1:02:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, I would say so.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  I mean, you've been together so long, I'm new.

• 1:02:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you're new.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. New and sparkly some days, but sometimes just not his Kara. So.

• 1:02:52Kara Swisher?

  He hates it. He hates the idea that he has to keep coming back to me.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:55Kara Swisher?

  Oh, he does. It's OK. I don't care.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Oh, look how happy he was shirtless and beaming when he saw you again.

• 1:03:01Kara Swisher?

  I know, I know, it's true. What can I say? I don't mind. I'm very, very flex, I'm very bendy, Jess. So.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I think of when I think of you. So flexible, that Kara Swisher.

• 1:03:11Kara Swisher?

  Bendy is different than flexible. I will smack you to last Sunday if I need to. Not you, but people. So you recently talked about the rise of independent media and observed that literally everyone is a content creator. Do you think that's a good thing? I think it is. I think there's a lot of really excellent products out there, and it creates a different kind of vibe. How do you look at it comparatively, especially to Fox? And Fox is the most popular of the cable shows, but it's like being the most popular of, you know, stagecoaches eventually. But these are growing. These are fast growing.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  They're definitely fast growing. They're huge platforms. I, you know, Fox is, like for The Five, you got up to 4 million viewers.

• 1:03:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  That's nothing to, you know. But I love being in both spaces because I think it also affirms that what I'm saying on Fox is independent curation, that I'm not getting, you know, DNC talking points. And, yeah, I mean, you know how it is. People get pissed off with the stuff that you say on air, no matter where you do it. You know, where they say like, oh, you misunderstood this, or why are you criticizing the party? And you just say, this is what I feel. And it's also reflective of what millions of Americans are feeling. And if you don't want to deal with that, you're going to lose elections, which I imagine isn't high on your list of things to do.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  So I like having a foot in both spots, frankly. And do I think it's a good thing that everybody is a creator? Probably net, net yes. But in that interview, something that I was talking about that I think is important is that there is concern when you talk to people out in the wild about all of the biases that people have that maybe weren't reported over the course of, you know, decades that they were working in traditional TV, right, as a reporter or a journalist. And that's not, you've always had a point of view, a political point of view, and not shied away from that. But a lot of people didn't have jobs like that.

• 1:05:18Kara Swisher?

  I agree.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  And it has complicated how people see these folks and whether they trust them to be agenda free. You hear that a lot. And it's not like I'm satisfying that for people. People know that I have a leftward bent to the way that I look at our politics. But you know how hungry people are for facts and reality? Right, for a boring, reported something, right? That just says, this is literally what happened versus this is my spin on it. And when you do have a proliferation of the creator economy at this level, people don't necessarily get that. And there's, you know, PBS can't do it for everybody.

• 1:05:59Kara Swisher?

  Right, that's fair. So let's finish returning to your expertise as a researcher and pollster and a get alonger, I guess. What do you think people aren't paying attention to and around the midterms or looking ahead to 2028? And, and not who should be on the Democratic ticket in 2028, but what should they look like? Using your principles from your book, what should that look like?

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  So I have shifted away from, I used to be more afraid of running a woman. You know, I was in that camp of like, more Hillary than Kamala for me because I think Hillary was just a next level candidate. And the way that Kamala came to the candidacy is obviously, you know, not the traditional route.

• 1:06:42Kara Swisher?

  No, she didn't get thrown through the, thrown through the paces, essentially.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Right, and she did try to go through the paces in 2020, and it didn't work out. So, but I have moved much more into a world where I'm concerned less with what people look like than what they sound like. And so if the message is right and resonant, I, I'm not as afraid of it anymore. I mean, it's kind of a joke, but is there a world in which you have like an Andy Beshear AOC ticket, right, to satisfy people on different sides of the spectrum? It won't actually be that, but I'm not as closed off to the idea anymore. I, I used to be much more.

• 1:07:26Kara Swisher?

  But what's critical, based on what you've written here? Is it conciliatory? Because a lot of people, as you note, is, are loaded for bear, right?

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there is a conciliatory attitude, I think, even in the way AOC does politics. You look at who she's friends with. You look at the way that she is in interviews. She's not talking down to anybody. I mean, if you're a billionaire, you're in the crosshairs.

• 1:07:47Kara Swisher?

  Right, but.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  But in general.

• 1:07:49Kara Swisher?

  You should be.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't think that she has a disregard or a disdain for a working class, like a rural white person who traditionally voted for Donald Trump. Are they going to be her favorite person? I'm not sure about that. But she doesn't reek of that elitism stink that we've had for a long time. And, you know, background as a bartender and all those kinds of things. So I think it has a lot to do with, you know, the way that you're communicating. Like Jon Ossoff is obviously a great example of this. I'm curious to see how he does in interviews and kind of longer form conversations after the midterms, knock on wood, that he wins by a big chunk, which is what it looks like at this point.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  But I'm very open to a bunch of different packages, if the messaging is right.

• 1:08:39Kara Swisher?

  Is there such a thing as a feisty conciliatory person?

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ruben Gallego. You know, he is somebody who actually has a lot of pretty left-leaning positions. Won Arizona, was able to do that in a year that Trump obviously did well. But he is talking about what Latino people actually want and how we, how they think about wealth. And was saying it's not about begrudging anyone else's success. Like, they just want a big fucking truck themselves. Right, and that, I think, understanding that, which Trump has always understood, which is how he gets away with so much of this. Perhaps he's hit his wall, was my most fervent hope. I, I think makes the way Gallego sees the world as, you know, something very appealing

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  for that debate stage, at the very least, if he decides to go that way.

• 1:09:30Kara Swisher?

  So very last question. What should be the Democratic and Republican bumper sticker, based on what you've written here?

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Something around delivering. You know, something with an action. Because there is, people are too cynical right now, I think, to get swept up in a hope and change. Again, and yes, we can, didn't work. Right, so we'll put that aside. But people want results. They're over the idea that they're going to fall in love with their electeds and want to be part of this big movement. I mean, Mom Donnie had it to some degree, but he won just over 50% of the vote. So he's done a lot of good work since he came into office. But something around deliverables, which is not particularly sexy. I'm going to have to workshop it.

• 1:10:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you need to work out.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like.

• 1:10:15Kara Swisher?

  Deliverables.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Deliverable. I, I don't know. What would you, how would you judge it? Scott would help us.

• 1:10:21Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, we're, something about you.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Delivering for you?

• 1:10:24Kara Swisher?

  You, for you. This one's for you.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Kara Swisher?

  This one's for you.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  This one's for you, Kara.

• 1:10:31Kara Swisher?

  This one's for you.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Vote for me.

• 1:10:32Kara Swisher?

  And then give everyone a glass of whiskey. Anyway, Jess, you need a glass of whiskey after those shows. I honestly don't know how you do it. I really don't. I would smack Jesse Waters back to last Sunday every single week, which I'm sure he would like.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  I think you guys would have a good time.

• 1:10:49Kara Swisher?

  I, OK, sure, why not? Tell him anytime he wants to come on, he's welcome. I doubt he has the set for it, but that's OK.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  I'll let him know this afternoon.

• 1:10:57Kara Swisher?

  Jess, it's a great book. I disagree. Thank you for coming on, finally. I'm so thrilled to have you.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:11:09Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Nishat Kurwa, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Special thanks to Alyssa Soap, Rose Mary Ho, Bradley Sylvester, Jim Mackel, and Manolo Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, we're sending you a $5,000 On With Kara Swisher dividend. We're not sending you any money. If not, you get nothing, which is what everybody gets. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

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