Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher Is America Ready for a Full-Blown Cyberwar? with Nicole Perlroth, Michael Schmidt & Lt. Col. Vindman About this episode Everything, everywhere, all at once — but not the movie. This is how cybersecurity experts describe a scenario where a foreign adversary shuts off critical infrastructure, like oil pipelines, water networks, ports, and electric grids, all over the country. The terrifying truth is that China has already hacked into our critical infrastructure. They’re “living off the land” and could conceivably attack whenever is most convenient. What’s worse? Our political leaders are defunding America’s cybersecurity efforts. In order to dig in deeper, Kara talks to Nicole Perlroth, Michael Schmidt, and Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, (Ret.)
Nicole Perlroth spent a decade as the lead cybersecurity reporter at The New York Times, before going inside the tent and joining the advisory board of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and the Council on Foreign Relations’ Cyber Task Force. She is a founding partner at Silverbuckshot Ventures and the host and producer of To Catch a Thief, a new podcast on China’s rise to cyber dominance.
Michael Schmidt is a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter for The New York Times and the author of the best-selling book Donald Trump v. The United States. He’s also the executive producer and co-creator of the Netflix series Zero Day, a political thriller about a devastating cyberattack on the U. S.
Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman is the former director of European Affairs for the National Security Council. Vindman was a key witness during President Trump’s first impeachment and testified about Trump’s infamous phone call with President Zelensky of Ukraine. He is a senior fellow at the Johns Hopkins Foreign Policy Institute and the author of The Folly of Realism: How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine.
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Transcript 10,467 words · 16 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:12 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today, I'm talking about cybersecurity, cyber attacks, and the potential for a full-blown cyber war with Nicole Perroth, Michael Schmidt, and Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. Nicole Perroth spent a decade as the lead cybersecurity reporter at The New York Times before going inside the tent and joining the Advisory Board of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and the Council on Foreign Relations' Cyber Task Force. She's a founding partner at Silver Buckshot Ventures and a producer and host of To Catch a Thief, a new podcast about China's rise to cyber dominance. Michael Schmidt is a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter for The New York Times
0:56 Kara Swisher? and the author of the bestselling book, Donald Trump v. the United States. He's also the executive producer and co-creator of the Netflix show Zero Day, a political thriller about a devastating cyber attack on the US. Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman is a former Director of European Affairs for the National Security Council. Vindman was a key witness during President Trump's first impeachment and testified about Trump's infamous phone call with President Zelensky of Ukraine. He is a senior fellow at the Johns Hopkins Foreign Policy Institute and the author of The Folly of Realism: How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine. So, stick around. It's a panel of real experts here and on an important topic to me.
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3:59 Kara Swisher? Nicole, Michael and Alexander, thank you for coming on.
4:04 Speaker 06 Thanks for having me.
4:05 Speaker 07 Thanks for having us.
4:05 Speaker 08 Thanks for having us.
4:06 Kara Swisher? So I'm excited to have a panel with three smart people from different but related fields. So let's start by setting the table. I'd love each of you right now to say, there's so many of them, but what's America's most worrisome cybersecurity vulnerability right now? If there's a serious cyber attack or a series of attacks against the US in the next three years, what will it look like? Nicole, why don't you start and then Michael, then Alexander?
4:29 Speaker 07 I think we got a glimpse of it with Colonial Pipeline, but if you remember, that was a ransomware attack by sort of this bumbling group of cyber criminals. And since then, what we've seen is China infiltrating pipeline networks, water networks, transportation networks, ports, grid. And they're doing it in a way where all they're doing is getting in and just making sure that they can stay in for the event of some sort of geopolitical tensions. And so what we're really worried about right now is what we call the everything, everywhere, all at once cyber scenario, where you wouldn't just have one Colonial Pipeline, but you would maybe have five or 10 simultaneously, not just on gas, but on water networks.
5:14 Kara Swisher? So that's called the long game, essentially. The long game of being there, just in case they need to do that. Michael?
5:20 Speaker 08 I mean, the whole thing that I have about cyber attacks and sort of attacks in general is like, how would the country actually respond if something really horrific happened? If there was something catastrophic that really shut down communications or stuff like water or electricity, what would the response from the country look like? We all lived through the aftermath of 9/11. We saw how the country responded to a horrific catastrophic attack. It's hard to believe the country would be united simply just on fact of what happened, let alone on response.
6:01 Speaker 08 And I'm a believer that if the society doesn't have a understanding of what's going on around it, it's less likely to make the right decisions. So not a technical answer, but I think a larger thing about the threat that a threat really poses to this country.
6:20 Kara Swisher? That's an excellent answer. Alex?
6:22 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think about it from the perspective of our adversaries. They think about it in terms of information confrontation with cyber being a component of that bigger confrontation. And in the environment where a attack may be, the chances of an attack may be increasing, we're disarming and we are adding chaos to a potential response. I think in line with what Michael said, we don't have a predictable, reliable response from the federal government. Potentially, it's fractured and localized with different narratives about who the aggressive actor is. I mean, there's a reason to believe that if it was Russia, Trump would potentially
7:02 Speaker 06 downplay Russia as the threat actor and look for other different excuses. Elon Musk was talking about Twitter coming down because of Ukraine and that was a false flag. So I think that's a part of what I see unfolding, disarmament in the midst of increasing threat environment.
7:22 Kara Swisher? Right. So essentially, long game, chaos, and we're not ready at the same time, or we're even worse than not ready, which is purposely incompetent, essentially. So for the American public, the chances of cyber warfare actually affecting can seem remote right now. Narrative fiction, in fact, is possibly the most effective way to make people wake up to the threat. So let's play a clip from Michael's Zero Day, which starts with a Wolf Blitzer cameo.
7:49 Speaker 09 We received reports not only of widespread outages impacting multiple regional power grids, but of computer systems that control transportation, communications, and other infrastructure completely hijacked with safety warnings somehow overridden. Early estimates suggest a significant but unknown number of casualties.
8:12 Speaker 10 As subway cars and commuter trains filled with passengers found themselves switched onto the same track, resulting in head-on collisions and mass injury.
8:21 Kara Swisher? So, Michael, the show was number one in English language TV and Netflix earlier this month. Talk about reactions you've gotten from the viewers. Did this switch on a lightbulb for people? They see it more as a Robert De Niro, it's going out with Connie Britton sci-fi thriller.
8:39 Speaker 08 My hope is the former, but I'm probably gonna say the latter.
8:42 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah.
8:43 Speaker 08 I think the thing that that that clip tries to show is something that as journalists, we really struggle with. And Nicole and I both covered, you know, cyber stuff together at The Times about this. And when I started covering this stuff, I went to the Department of Homeland Security and I said, what would a cyber attack look like? This is like 10 years ago, 12 years ago. What would it be? Like, help me tell this story. You had all these national security officials going up to Capitol Hill and saying, there's gonna be a cyber Pearl Harbor, cyber 9/11. But so I went to them and they had this, like, something that looked like it came from the 1950s. And it had different light bulbs. And they were like, well, if this switch happens, this light bulb goes off. And if
9:28 Speaker 08 this... And I remember thinking at the time, man, this is a really hard story to tell people. You have people really sounding alarms about it. But even in text, I don't know how to bring this to life. And what the show allowed me and the other creators to do was to show you what this looks like in a way that no testimony from someone on Capitol Hill could give you. And sure, it's Hollywood, it's dramatized. But what it is, is that it shows people, hey, this is what this could look like. And it does it in a way that's accessible on a platform that millions and millions of people watch,
10:09 Speaker 08 and in a forum where they can easily digest it. And for me, that was really exciting.
10:15 Kara Swisher? So Nicole, you have a new documentary podcast called To Catch a Thief. It tells the story of how China used cyber attacks to steal our IP and also hack our critical infrastructure. Now, the former has been going on for a very long time, as you know, but the critical infrastructure is a whole new part of it. We referenced this a bit already, but does the cyber threat get enough attention in DC? President Trump created the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency in his first term, but its funding and staffing are getting cut. It's getting decimated. And you obviously fired the head of it famously because he said the elections were fine. So who are the lawmakers and people in power right now who are making it a priority? Because they seem busy with every other distraction known to man.
10:57 Speaker 07 Yeah, and I'm just going to back up and say I did this podcast because I feel like, and really to Mike's point, we have failed at every institutional level to convey just how serious this threat is. And as we failed to convey it in media, you know, at the New York Times, I always said, we need 12 people covering cybersecurity. I am one person. Mike was covering DHS, but there was a lot that goes on at DHS beyond cyber. We need one person just covering what Russia is doing in our infrastructure every single day. We need someone that's covering what China is doing with the IP theft and now critical infrastructure attacks. And we never did that. And so it was really hard to tell this story.
11:38 Speaker 07 And I think there are some people in government who get it. And thank God, cybersecurity is still a bipartisan issue. Wow, is it? We are, we are losing support for this on the right because of exactly what you just said, because it became a political issue with the 2020 elections. And Chris Krebs getting out there and calling it the most secure election in history, and Trump never forgave him for that. Well, he fired him. Right. So I think really where a lot of the back channel lobbying going on right now is in making sure that this administration gets it. Sean Blenke was just named as the new CISA director by all accounts. He's a, he's a great guy and he gets it. Inside NSA,
12:20 Speaker 07 so far, a lot of the leadership is still there and they have a very- This is the National Security Agency, just for people who- That's right. The National Security Agency. You know, of course, people on the Intelligence Committee still see this. Mark Warner is doing a lot on this topic, but, but there's no longer someone I could say this person in the Republican Party is being very loud and clear on cybersecurity. And because, because- Well, because everything is changing every 20 minutes. You know, I would, I would have said Marco Rubio really understands the threat of Russia on cyber and definitely China on cyber. But watching what happened in the White House in the Oval Office a few weeks ago, I don't
13:05 Speaker 07 know who is, is holding the line on this anymore.
13:09 Kara Swisher? Alex, your new book, The Folly of Realism, shows how the US has spent decades misunderstanding and mismanaging the Russia threat. In case anyone missed it, the running theme here is that all three of you are trying to alert policymakers and the public to risks that haven't gotten enough attention, which is why I wanted to do this. First rate how the US has responded to Russia's developing cyber program in the last decade and what is happening now, I would say. And obviously, the Russia-Ukraine war is the first major conflict to involve large-scale cyber operations. Now, more than three years after the full invasion of Ukraine, what have we learned about the role it's going to play? And, you know, if there's nobody there, as Nicole says, on the Republican side and they're running, they're running the table, what happens?
13:50 Speaker 06 You know, the book makes the point that we keep repeating the same mistakes of the past. We make the mistakes of catering to Russia's exceptionalism and buying into the hopes that we could do more with Russia or succumbing to fears that if we do too much with regards to Russia, that the relationship, you know, could, could break or spiral in a dangerous direction. And we've done this repeatedly across six different administrations, is the point I'm making. Same thing with regards to cyber, although we, we only really started paying attention to cyber over the last 25 years. We are now in an era in which we are the most transactional. We don't understand any of the lessons of the past.
14:33 Speaker 06 It's only what's immediately in front of us. So we, you know, Trump, he's been in power, he had four years in office. This is now really like month 60 or something like that of his, of his presidential tenure. But nothing beyond like last week or the week before, except for some key themes, Russia good, Ukraine bad, continue on. Everything else is highly transactional, immediately what's in front of us. So, you know, we're looking at a reset here coming between a conversation between Russia and, and the United States, Putin and Trump, in which, you know, we could pivot further down the road of Accommodating Russia, throwing out the playbook on the fact that we need to be hardening ourselves against Russian cyber attacks.
15:18 Speaker 06 We've already kind of unilaterally disarmed an offensive cyber. Or it's hard to believe, you know, Trump is going to learn his lesson anytime soon. But eventually, we get to the point where Trump is provoked and is made to look weak and might respond aggressively.
15:32 Kara Swisher? So those cyber threats to Ukraine have increased. Obviously, that's how they began softening up the country, right? That was their first move.
15:38 Speaker 06 Sure. And I think the fact is that nobody really knows the Russians better than the Ukrainians. And the Ukrainians are, you know, looking and are constantly playing in the Russians' backyard. Very, very, in a sophisticated manner, they may not have all the tools we have. But they are, they certainly understand the Russians. And, you know, the Russians have been attempting to exploit vulnerabilities, not entirely successfully with regards to Ukraine. Actually, Ukraine has been very effective at parrying a lot of these attacks on Ukrainian critical infrastructure. That's why you see hard power, you see, you know, missile strikes to do the work that they thought that they might be able to achieve.
16:20 Kara Swisher? It could do through cyber.
16:21 Speaker 06 Yeah. So, but there, that's, Ukraine is a bit of a hard target. There are soft targets all around Ukraine for the Russians to exploit, either with hard power or in the cyber domain, that, that the Russians are aware of and are becoming increasingly comfortable with, with attacking.
16:38 Kara Swisher? So let's talk about where the cyber threats are coming from domestic groups a little bit. I'm not going to give away your whole plot, Michael, but there's also domestic threats throughout your, your series. What, what domestic threats concern you most and America's politics become more and more fraught? Because that's a topic here.
16:56 Speaker 08 You know, I defer to Nicole on like the specifics on sort of like who has what capabilities and such. But what we're trying to sort of show and raise in the show is the idea that these tools can be stolen, even, they don't have to be created outside of the government. They can be stolen from the government. And whether that is a state. Actor or that is, you know, someone sitting in their basement. You know, not to simplify it, but that that the the threat of this is is everywhere. And it's not just Russia. It's not just state sponsored folks. And, you know, Nicole understands it better than I do.
17:36 Speaker 08 But what we're trying to say is that this is something that can rear its head from anyone in any different ways. And in a time in which things are so fraught and so divisive. You know, what does that mean for people that can get their hands on things like this?
17:53 Kara Swisher? Mm hmm. So Nicole, your whole book was about this, obviously, using US government created technology and then spread all around the world by lots of people. So talk a little bit about what's happening because it can AI is another element here. It can lower the barrier to entry for hackers. AI enabled military systems are vulnerable in the way traditional systems aren't. AI powered cybersecurity tools can also be very powerful in the end. Talk about that impact and non state actors in exploiting all this technology.
18:25 Speaker 07 Well, you know, it really is the perfect weapon, which is the name of another of our colleagues book, David Sanger's book, because it all of these tools can be developed, reverse engineered, fired back on their maker. Yes, the US bears some responsibility for launching probably the most sophisticated cyber weapon of them all. Stuck set with Israel on Iran's nuclear facility way back when. And that has opened Pandora's box. And right now we are seeing a whole well oiled economy of ransomware in particular, where anyone can pick up these tools. They don't even need to have any technical savvy. They can pick up these tools, rent them and fire them on anyone. And we've seen American teenagers, Canadian teenagers arrested in some of these hacks.
19:10 Speaker 07 And the barrier to entry only gets lower every day because we've all somewhat come to realize what a Chinese phishing email would look like. But now with AI, it's really hard. But let me just say something, you know, on Ukraine. Ukraine's defense is really the deterrent on Taiwan. You know, China has been watching very carefully how Vladimir Putin's invasion has gone. And they've watched what we've done with our support, with sanctions, with funding, with weapons. And now they're watching what we're doing on dithering on that support, on trying to make a deal on minerals, et cetera. And they're taking the lessons to heart.
19:53 Speaker 07 One thing I just want to say on what we've been witnessing with China creeping into our water networks and our pipelines is that this is, to Alex and Mike's earlier point, really, I think about it as a psychological weapon. We have incredible appetite, in both parties still, maybe it's waning, to support Taiwan in the event of some larger military conflict. But what appetite will Americans have to support an island 7,000 miles away if we can't get gas for more than three days, or we can't get clean water, or our water is contaminated? And really, the goal with some of these weapons is to basically win a war without firing a single bullet.
20:38 Kara Swisher? Right.
20:38 Speaker 07 And one of the things that makes cyber this perfect weapon is we wouldn't immediately know whether this is a Chinese cyber attack, or a Russian cyber attack, or a ransomware attack. There are a whole host of possibilities for false flags, which we saw last week with Elon Musk accusing Ukraine of hacking Twitter. And I haven't followed that to its logical conclusion. But if it's coming directly from Ukrainian IP addresses, then you probably can be 100% sure that it's not Ukraine.
21:07 Kara Swisher? Yeah, right. So we'll come back to Taiwan, but first, let's get to the foreign hacking gangs, which is, I think, probably did something like this. For example, the Russian-speaking cyber gang called, I think it's Alf v. Black Hat, hacked Change Healthcare, the subsidiary of United Healthcare that processed 40% of all healthcare claims and caused chaos for providers and patients. A lot of this stuff is not as well-known, because they tried to keep it quiet, obviously. A few weeks ago, North Korean hackers known as the Lazarus Group stole $1.5 billion in crypto. Alex, talk about the relationship between criminal gangs and foreign adversaries like Russia, North Korea, Iran, and China. Generally speaking... They do have the tacit permission of these governments to hit American targets.
21:46 Speaker 06 It's more than tacit. In a lot of ways, they're extensions. It's well documented that the Russians have used Russian organized crime to do some of their dirty work, whether that's to channel hard currency or just muck around mischief make. Think about it from this way. When the Russians want their detained, lawfully detained folks back, there have been a number of folks that have been cyber actors that were acting on behalf of the Ukrainian, the Russian government. It wasn't because they were benign, looking to repatriate their folks. It's because these were actors that were serving the Russian Federation's.
22:24 Kara Swisher? Like vendors.
22:25 Speaker 06 Yeah, exactly. So they're on a string. They have some latitude to engage in their own criminal activity just to enrich themselves, but they are also oftentimes employed as part of the government apparatus. Same thing in Ukraine.
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26:03 Kara Swisher? So Nicole, in your podcast, To Catch a Thief, you quote Rob Joyce, the NSA's former director of cybersecurity. He says Russia is like a hurricane, but China is like climate change. Can you talk a little bit about that? What is our offensive against them? And walk us through their long-term cyber strategy and defense for their endgame.
26:22 Speaker 07 Yeah, I would say with China, they've been coming at us for a long time. They've been coming for our intellectual property. In some cases, we're only just beginning to see how that has manifested. We don't talk about Nortel anymore, but it disappeared long ago and Huawei stole all of its business. And they've replicated that model across many different industries. Solar panels, now electric vehicles, electric vehicle batteries, genetically modified seeds. Over and over again, wherever you look now, there is a hacking story that no one ever connected the dots back to this company's bankruptcy, but that is what's happening. And then they've added this critical infrastructure piece.
27:02 Speaker 07 And what's gnawing at me and why I did this whole podcast is that this is a very different actor from the one that I was covering at the New York Times 15 years ago. When China was hacking the New York Times, they fished us. It was, we didn't update our software. They took advantage of that. They weren't a very sophisticated actor. But these days, there's no doubt in my mind that they have reached apex predator status. They are on par with what the US capabilities are. They have found a way to really utilize their authoritarianism to their advantage. If you are a hacker in China and you are an elite hacker, you have been identified very early on in your student life. You are on a track.
27:47 Speaker 07 Maybe you work at a private company. Maybe you work at Tencent. Maybe you are a founder. Whatever you are, if you have these skills, you are now a gunslinger for the CCP. They can tap you on the shoulder at any time and bring you into these operations. And some of their best people do not work inside the PLA anymore or even inside the Ministry of State Security. They work through this loose satellite network of contractors. Which makes attribution that much more difficult. And what have they done with this entire apparatus that they have built? They've infiltrated our telecommunications networks, the threat we call Salt Typhoon. They are inside our biggest telecommunications companies. We have not been able to get them out, and frankly, we probably never will.
28:31 Speaker 07 And now they are in our water and transport and pipeline and grid networks as well. So it's not a good situation. And now, in terms of what our capabilities are, I do think we've entered this new era of mutually assured digital destruction. And I was actually very concerned when Putin invaded Ukraine, when we started escalating how much we were willing to support Ukraine with weapons and funding, that Russia didn't do more here, right? That they didn't actually utilize the access that they already have, in too many cases, to our pipeline networks and other critical infrastructure. And you would have to be a fly on Vladimir Putin's wall to understand why they didn't take advantage of that access.
29:14 Speaker 07 But I think it probably comes down to the fact that they know we are in their systems too. This idea that we're in their grid, we're in their pipeline networks as well. Now, one point that often gets overlooked when we talk about this is that actually, Cyber Command, which does these operations, and NSA, et cetera, is limited by law from hacking certain civilian systems that could lead to mass casualties. So we actually have laws that prevent how much we can infiltrate our adversaries' infrastructure. There are no laws like that in Russia and China, so it's not necessarily an even playing field.
29:54 Kara Swisher? So I saw you smile, Alex, about Russia as a hurricane. Can you talk a little bit about that? And also, we've talked about Russian cyber operations in Ukraine. You mentioned Ukraine is successful at repelling many attacks, which means they're not as good, right? If they're having trouble with Ukraine, they'll definitely have trouble with the US. So what, does it give the US any lessons on how to fight back? Because I suspect we're pretty good at fighting off Russia at this point, or maybe not. But talk about this idea of Russia as a hurricane and...
30:21 Speaker 06 I think the fact is that it's a microcosm of the bigger deterrence that we've achieved with regards to Russia. They understand that they do not want to provoke a direct confrontation. Now, they'll dance around it. They'll, you know, issue threats, nuclear threats. They've got this doctrine called a reflexive control that they've really tested over decades. They understand, you know, what happens when they threaten a nuclear escalation or an exercise. We go to the, you know, the darkest place. We go to the consequence, the nuclear war, without understanding the probability. But with regards to lower threats, they believe that there might be, that might be an escalation, a direct confrontation
31:06 Speaker 06 that could start us on an escalatory spiral. They have no interest in doing that. They're concerned about a direct confrontation with the West. You know, they do believe that we're, in a lot of ways, schizophrenic, but we're 10 feet tall and we have lots of capabilities that we can employ, conventional cyber, and I think they just are generally deterred by, happy to make noise, but directly attacking the United States, that's a different kind of bar.
31:34 Kara Swisher? Different kind of bar, yeah.
31:35 Speaker 06 Yeah.
31:36 Kara Swisher? So at the end of the day, it just, I think focus should be on China, as you all pointed out. It seems like the Chinese attempt, though, at reunification with Taiwan is one of the most likely events that could kick off a full-fledged, not just cyber war, but other wars. What are the, what each of you, what are the chances that China invades Taiwan in the next five years? And if it does, will be able to fend against accompanying Chinese cyber attacks that will come probably before? Let's hear from each of you. Nicole first, then Michael, then Alex.
32:02 Speaker 07 I don't think it's inevitable, but why are they hacking into our water networks? Why are they hacking into these targets that have no espionage value whatsoever? The only reason you would go there is if you were looking to shut them down one day. And the thinking is that this is all pre-positioning for an eventual invasion of Taiwan. Now, Xi Jinping has basically made this part of his strategy, and he's talked a lot about reunification being inevitable. And I think he will see. You know, his success, his legacy resting on whether Taiwan is quote unquote reunified, right? So the thinking is that, you know, in the next decade, we might see China take action on this.
32:45 Speaker 07 Do I think it's going to happen in the next two to three years? No. You know, we've, we've seen people like Milley come out and say that they think China would be ready to launch their attack by 2027. I don't think that means that they're going to actually launch that attack in 2027. I think five years, you know, maybe in the next decade, likely. I think the thinking is that they think this is somehow going to happen automatically, that Taiwan will just sort of acquiesce and stop being what they see as this renegade province. But we know that that is not how Taiwan sees things. And I do think cyber is going to be a big determinant of what happens here. You know, when you look at just TSMC, right?
33:28 Speaker 07 They're not going to bomb Taiwan Semiconductor. The thinking there is that to take it, they would hold it hostage with some kind of cyber attacks until they would basically hand over the keys. Michael?
33:41 Speaker 08 Look, I, I don't know how to, it's hard to predict the future. I guess what I would say is that the thing that concerns me the most is that we seem to be in increasingly sort of fragile position where any sort of signal or any sort of miscommunication can set something off. And the more and more that, you know, Trump increases the pressure on our foreign adversaries, whether that's through something as simple as tariffs or through his rhetoric, I just think that you're in a situation where something is more likely to be misconstrued. There's a ton of rhetoric, for example, going on right now between the administration and Canada, right?
34:25 Speaker 08 Trump is saying all these things about Canada that are outside the norms of what politicians have said about Canada for decades, if not, if not longer. And in that type of situation, you wonder if there is some sort of issue at the border or if there's some sort of miscommunication, what will the response be?
34:46 Kara Swisher? Right. So Alex, obviously Russia has paved the way for this with Ukraine, although some people say that the situation in Ukraine has been a deterrent for China to move in there, even if they may engage in cyber attacks. Is that something they're looking at, what's happened in Ukraine, from your perspective?
35:03 Speaker 06 They're carefully looking at it, and I think there was a significant level of deterrence based on the consolidated response of the democratic world, imposing costs, Russia failing to achieve its military objectives, that looks like it's eroding, you know, three years on, under the Trump administration. I think what she might be considering here is two different things. I think there was a lot of rhetoric about the decadence and decline of the West, but the reality is that, you know, the economy in China was slowing down, and maybe there was a diminished, a closing window of opportunity where China felt strong enough to take action. That 2027 mark could have been important in that regard. But the reality, things have changed in a significant, look like they might change
35:47 Speaker 06 in a significant way, in that the Trump administration is breaking our alliances. And that's not just in Europe with NATO. Frankly, we're unreliable to our Indo-Pacific allies. The Japanese and the South Koreans are thinking that they need to be much more, working much more tightly together. Same thing with Australians. And in that kind of environment, you know, watching things unfold over the next several years, as they build up capabilities, there's a decision point somewhere in that last year, whether the window is closing, or it's likely to expand over the course of the, you know, subsequent decade or so. So I don't think we're, you know, in the next year or two, we're there.
36:30 Speaker 06 I think in the waning days of the Trump administration, if there's a deal to be had, that might be an opportunity, a narrow opportunity for the Chinese, or it could be in the aftermath. So it's, I'd say, short to medium term, might be okay, but in the medium to long term, things could get dangerous for Taiwan in particular. And the noise coming out of the administration, I'm not sure how many people caught Albert Colby's testimony. He's an uber China hawk for undersecretary defense.
37:03 Speaker 06 He basically said, "The game is not about securing Taiwan. It's about preventing Chinese dominance in the Indo-Pacific," which is a huge turn for him. And that, you know, that is an interesting signal, aligning closer with the Trump administration and not putting all our eggs on securing Taiwan.
37:22 Kara Swisher? Right, yeah, that's interesting. So I want to shift gears then to talk about how Trump and DOGE are affecting America's ability to defend itself from cyber attacks. The National Security Agency houses the US Cyber Command, and this month Elon Musk met with the head of NSA for a conversation that was reportedly centered on staff reductions and operations. DOGE already spearheaded cuts at CISA. Nicole, talk us through these cuts and any future reductions in staffing affect overall preparedness, even if the leadership of those agencies get it, as you said earlier. Just, for people who don't understand, it's not just cuts at CISA. There are cybersecurity agencies across the federal government that work on securing specific agency systems. And so when their jobs get cut, it further degrades cyber capabilities, although the
38:05 Kara Swisher? White House recently emailed agencies telling to avoid laying off cybersecurity staffers. So they seem to have some understanding that it's a problem. And then, Michael, I'll have a follow-up question for you on this. But talk about these DOGE cuts, because you wrote me right away when they started going, "Oh, no."
38:21 Speaker 07 Yeah, I mean, we have a crazy cyber workforce shortage in this country.
38:28 Kara Swisher? Already.
38:29 Speaker 07 Already. And where that becomes most critical is on cyber defense inside government. And so I have spent a lot of effort over the past four years trying to figure out what would it take to get our best and brightest at some of these private security firms, people who work in security at Google, Microsoft, et cetera, to do a tour of duty inside government. And it's really difficult, right? They all have stock, they don't want to give up, they don't want to go work in a bureaucracy, they're getting paid really well to work at these companies, and they see the most interesting threat data, because in many cases, China comes first for Microsoft, as they did in 2023, or Google. So it takes a lot to get these people inside government. And what's really disturbing-
39:12 Speaker 07 Is to see how viciously we've been firing them. We need those people at SISA. We've never needed them more desperately inside government in these roles. And so it's become a real national security threat. Some of these Doji cuts. And yes, there have been these sort of memos announcing, you know, refrain from cutting cyber people. Well, it's too late. You know, these people who've been fired, they're not going to come crawling back.
39:38 Speaker 12 No.
39:39 Speaker 07 To take these jobs. They have many other options. And so that's a big problem. Now, you know, on some of this reporting that Cyber Command has been told to stand down on some of its offensive planning operations around Russia. When I first read that, to be honest with you, I almost went and threw up. You know, this is, like I said, we are in a mutually assured digital destruction.
40:01 Speaker 12 We have to keep up the pressure.
40:02 Speaker 07 We have to keep up what they call active defense or forward defense. Otherwise, we're really screwed here. Now, I have heard in talking to people who are in the know that actually this isn't what it sounds like, that actually, you know, as part of any negotiation with a with a foreign actor, it is a standard practice to basically stand down on some of these operations as we are trying to come up with a deal on Ukraine. And so this might be more standard operating procedure than it is Trump telling the people to basically stand down on any kind of offensive cyber planning or operations. And let's hope that's all it is.
40:39 Speaker 12 Let's hope, well, we'll see.
40:44 Speaker 12 We'll be back in a minute.
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42:09 Speaker 12 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
42:52 Speaker 03 I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
43:04 Speaker 13 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
43:09 Speaker 03 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.
43:19 Speaker 14 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
43:24 Speaker 03 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
43:26 Speaker 04 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
43:29 Speaker 15 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
43:37 Speaker 03 And dairy?
43:38 Speaker 05 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
43:41 Speaker 03 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
43:50 Kara Swisher? So aside from cuts, Doji itself is gaining access to government databases with extremely sensitive information. They seem to be violating protocols and regulations while they're doing it. Michael, talk about that risk that it poses, because this is, I mean, they seem to do one every day, largely probably out of ignorance. Who knows what they're taking? Some of these people have sketchy backgrounds themselves and love a good secret. You know, I know these types. Talk a little bit about the worries you have here.
44:16 Speaker 08 It's, I think it's an interesting political calculation by Trump, and I'm not saying that that much thought went into it, but I understand that part of his desire is to, and must desire, at least what they say, is to remake the federal government. But in the process, it certainly looks like they're destroying parts of it. And maybe in the end, that results in better government. I'm open-minded to that. But in the short term, I think that's a big political risk, because it looks like they're doing it in a haphazard way. And it doesn't look like the Republicans on Capitol Hill have any interest in trying to understand that or to hold them accountable for that.
44:59 Speaker 08 And that's, I think, another thing in the whole thing, is that they're going about it in a way that looks haphazard. And if something were to go wrong, tying the lines directly back to them by the, you know, that the media or the Democrats would do, looks like it would be pretty easy. So I do think that is a big political risk. But, look, I mean, Trump often proves us wrong.
45:21 Speaker 07 Yeah, let me just jump in real quick. Yeah, you know, I think, actually, the security blogger, Brian Krabs, has done a great job covering some of this, and he's called it, you know, the great national hack. And that is really what it is. I mean, you have to think back to, there was a Chinese hack on the Office of Personnel Management, OPM, right, about 10 years ago. And it was a huge counterintelligence win for China. They basically got into the system, they could see everyone who ever applied. Applied for a security clearance and then they've baked in machine learning and AI so that they can do these pairings. So anytime there is an American person, whoever who who once applied for a security clearance, traveling repeatedly to the same place as a Chinese citizen. Well, now that Chinese citizen is put on a list of suspected CIA informants and you start
46:06 Speaker 07 to see how you could break down our entire intelligence apparatus that way in China. And that's what they've been doing. And so now what you have is you have Doji sending in 19 year olds, 21 year olds with their own little, you know, Rube Goldberg server, plugging it in and basically like doing whatever they want at these agencies. There is no way that these people have not been identified and compromised on some level and that foreign actors and sophisticated nation states are taking advantage of this. And we have to look at it in that way. And I'm surprised that there are not people inside this administration who aren't sounding alarms over this. It really is a very real security risk.
46:48 Kara Swisher? How many big balls jokes do we have to tell before we realize this guy's creepy creepy? You know, he's making copies of everything. I'm like sitting there like he's and it's on a hard drive that he hands to his mother or something. Anyway, I know, right? Right. Now, you know how sloppy, one of the great lies in Silicon Valley is how precise they are. They're not precise in any way. They're actually quite sloppy and then they're venal at the same time. So Alex, I have to ask about Elon's attacks against you. He has posted X that you're a traitor, a puppet, a puppeteer. You've committed treason. Now, I've been attacked by Elon for a long time now and it's pretty vicious. He calls me, it said, my heart is seething with hate, which it isn't. But I'd like you to talk about that just briefly. And as Nicole already mentioned, we're not sure if Pete Heggs has halted Pentagon cyber operations against Russia
47:33 Kara Swisher? earlier this month, which was denied by the DOD. Is that Elon too? Or what is happening there?
47:40 Speaker 06 Sure. So I think it's a little bit of smoke and mirrors, kind of this, this idea that we're going to halt offensive cyber operations. It sounds good that, you know, we're in the midst of sensitive negotiations.
47:52 Speaker 06 That's actually not necessarily the way it plays out. We are just much more, this is a knee jerk reaction from an administration that is filled not with the practitioners that had the first go around. That would be a little bit more surgical and methodical. Probably be, continue operations and maybe do some sort of reviews. Maybe an extra layer of caution around things that could derail the the kinds of negotiations that they're undertaking. But I think that's an afterthought because there was blowback on this on this idea of halting defense. It just doesn't ring true. We conduct all sorts of different operations against adversaries. This is one in which there is constant attacks against our allies,
48:35 Speaker 06 against NATO, and to halt all operations, that's not the way it works. The other thing is, you know, this, I don't understand how Elon is a successful businessman. I just don't, I don't understand that what he's doing with Doge is, I see it as just completely disruptive. There's no element of efficiency unless you're just literally working on chipping away at the bottom line to return dollars to the federal budget. Cause it's usually, you know, largely starts with probationary employees across the board, regardless of what kind of sensitive the jobs that they're doing at NNSA or SIS or any other place.
49:17 Speaker 06 So it is not in any way bringing around efficiency. I don't understand taking down the Wilson Center and Kennan Institute that studies Russia, how that works, Voice of America, our ability to compete in the information domain, you know, around the world, how that's helping. These are not steps towards efficiency. This is potentially taking a hatchet to the way that the US employs both hard power and soft power. With regards to me specifically, you know, I guess I, my wife says I tend to piss people off. All right. So, you know, I guess I pissed off the most powerful man in the world and the richest man in the world at various points. I don't really take these folks all that seriously at the moment.
50:00 Speaker 06 There are obviously lots of nefarious actors that have been brought into this administration. I'm mindful and I don't think I'm at the top of that list. You know, you might be more, you could be higher on that list than I am, Kara. But if they want to pick this fight, I've got nothing to hide. I would make it ugly for them. I mean, just think about the congressional testimony. They came at me on my area of expertise that really, in a lot of ways, I'm kind of untouchable on. If they want to pick this fight, it's probably going to get ugly.
50:32 Kara Swisher? So last two quick questions. Trump administration is reportedly looking into a deal to let Oracle run TikTok. Obviously, this is something I thought they would go with because they already were with Oracle and Project Texas. J.D. Vance and Mike Walz are leading Texas Project 2, I guess, what they're trying to figure out. But there's virtually no way to ensure the Chinese government doesn't have backdoor access to American user data on TikTok unless they completely don't bring the algorithm over. Nicole, you said you would never download the app and deserved urgency with which it was treated. Obviously, Congress voted to ban it, so that's what they wanted to do, whether you agree with that or not. I'd love you to talk about, very briefly, about TikTok. And do you think
51:15 Kara Swisher? it's as big a deal? And what do you imagine is going to happen to it?
51:18 Speaker 07 Yeah, it turns out they're China hawks who happen to love TikTok. You know, I wish that the White House, and this is across administrations, would declassify the security risks that they have seen around TikTok. It is not effective to go out there and say Huawei is a national security threat if you use Huawei when it's so much cheaper than the competition, or to say the same about TikTok when honestly, it's more fun than any of the other social apps I've used. I finally downloaded it, and then I quickly undownloaded it.
51:52 Kara Swisher? On your phone?
51:53 Speaker 07 On my phone, yeah. Going into the election. I know, I know.
51:57 Kara Swisher? You need the fake phone like Kara Swisher.
51:59 Speaker 07 It's not on there anymore.
52:00 Kara Swisher? I told you this five years ago, Nicole.
52:03 Speaker 07 But let me just say this. You know, I have heard stories, too many stories now, about people who are in sensitive positions inside government, whose wives and kids have been hacked, potentially through their access to TikTok. Okay, so it is a very real security risk. Now, will it be? Less of a security risk if it is owned and operated by a US company? Yes, potentially. But you know, what I really worried about with TikTok was more on the misinformation front that they would tweak the algorithm. So yeah, one day, you know, China invades Taiwan and oh, there are college protests supporting it and we have no idea how that happened. And there had just been a subtle tweak of the algorithm to basically serve up, you
52:48 Speaker 07 know, pro PRC content. But, but I also worry about the backdoor issue and, and I don't know, it's a big question mark. I think a lot about my old college buddy, Mike Gallagher, who headed up the China Committee and is now outside of government.
53:04 Kara Swisher? He's probably crying inside.
53:05 Speaker 07 Yeah, he, you know, he spent so much effort on TikTok and now to sort of watch people in his own party say, never mind, you know, we're actually okay with this and we're going to save it, probably has to hurt a little bit. So I don't know.
53:19 Kara Swisher? It does. I can tell you it does. I can tell you it does. Also that JD Vance, the world's most unsuccessful tech venture capitalist is running the process really makes me feel good. I'm sure we'll get a great deal. Anyway, a last question. Zero Day raises the question of national security versus civil liberties in the face of a cyber attack. But what would happen to US civil liberties if there's a serious cyber attack while Trump is president? All three of you.
53:47 Speaker 08 I think that if there were to be an attack, that the response of the country as a saying would be incredibly unpredictable and what Trump would do would be unpredictable. And it seems like a lot of classical issues in the post nine 11 world, like civil liberties, sort of got lost in the Trump era. That was a big debate during the war on terror, like, you know, what does civil liberties mean and such? But when Trump, you know, rose to power and then even when he was out of power and back, those classical arguments sort of went by the wayside. So in the sense of the show, it was a way of raising that issue and saying, okay, what about the good old question of civil liberties? And, and what would that mean?
54:30 Speaker 08 And if there was an attack, would the government seize power? And I think if we've seen anything, you know, based on Trump, Trump's basically willing to do anything here in this second term and the, the people who would say no to him are no longer in the room.
54:42 Kara Swisher? Right. So worse, worse than was already portrayed fictionally. Nicole?
54:47 Speaker 07 So, and I apologize because this is a little bit of a technical answer, but it's as technical as I'll go. You know, how is China infiltrating our infrastructure? They are using our civil liberty protections against us. They've actually hacked a lot of these systems by hacking home routers and home office routers that have stopped getting patches and we call that legacy software, right? And then they hack into these systems through like someone's house in Indianapolis so that when you're the water operator, water treatment plant operator, you see this little traffic coming from some house down the street in Indianapolis, you don't think twice about it. You would never suspect it's a Chinese state-sponsored hacker, right?
55:30 Speaker 07 And so we are really not set up well to be resilient against these threats because our adversaries have figured out that our Fourth Amendment protections are actually very exploitable. And so if there were to be some kind of full-scale conflict where we would see this everything, everywhere, all at once cyber attack scenario play out, it's an interesting question. Like, how do we defend ourselves when so much of this is coming in through American homes where the NSA and other agencies just don't have this ability? You know, we really are handcuffed when it comes to cyber defense. And I don't know how those would play out, but you know, the Fourth Amendment is still the Fourth Amendment.
56:12 Speaker 07 And, you know, for now, it's still holding. And so that is actually why it is really disturbing that we are seeing these reports of Cyber Command and other agencies being told to stand down on our own pre-operational planning. Because all we really have in the United States, when we're blind to our own domestic traffic, is the ability to hack these systems back overseas and to basically create pain for any adversary that would choose to create pain here. Alex, why don't you finish up?
56:44 Speaker 06 I think for me, it's it's pretty simple. I see autocrats seeing opportunity in crisis and chaos. So I think that that's just an opportunity for power grab. I've started watching Zero Day and basically, very quickly, you see the legislative branch ceding authorities. I'm not sure what other authorities can be ceded to this president. I mean, he's already had has immunity for all official acts. But I think there's just enormous opportunity, depending on where it lands in the timeline, that could mean delayed elections, if it
57:24 Speaker 06 happens to land in 2026. It could mean, you know, if there is chaos and looting, that's
57:30 Kara Swisher? That's actually the perfect time to do a cyber attack would be right before the election.
57:33 Speaker 06 So no ideas. Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. But I think in a moment where you're seeing civil unrest as a result of, you know, services collapsing, you could see, you know, martial law and suspension of posse comitatus or something of that nature. So a lot of dangers in that kind of crisis.
57:54 Kara Swisher? Okay, well, just watch Zero Day because it gets better and the legislative, you'll see what they do. You'll see, right? What happens there? A little, they've got a little more fire than you think they do, but not maybe in a good way. We'll see. You should all watch it. And everybody, please watch and read all these people. As I said, Alex's new book is called The Folly of Realism, and Nicole's new documentary podcast is called To Catch a Thief. I recommend all of them. And I really appreciate you all, even though the topic is dire. Thank you. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Rosell, Kateri Yokum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer
58:36 Kara Swisher? of audio. Special thanks to Maura Fox. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you have reached apex predator status. If not, watch out for your teenager as a security risk. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.
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59:53 Speaker 02 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
1:00:36 Speaker 03 I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
1:00:47 Speaker 13 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
1:00:53 Speaker 03 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.
1:01:03 Speaker 14 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
1:01:08 Speaker 03 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
1:01:10 Speaker 04 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
1:01:13 Speaker 15 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
1:01:21 Speaker 03 And dairy?
1:01:22 Speaker 05 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
1:01:25 Speaker 03 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
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