High Stakes with HRC: The Accountability Episode

Welcome back to High Stakes, a limited series from Kara Swisher and cohost Hillary Clinton. Ten years after Hillary called Trump Putin’s “puppet” on the debate stage, the label is back, and so is the fight over Russia. Corruption is now one of voters’ top concerns. If Dems take the midterms, Kara and the Secretary break down what a Democratic Congress should investigate first. Plus: Hillary looks back on her time as a young lawyer during the Nixon impeachment inquiry, and the two weigh in on Trump’s push to rename New Mexico. Everything you need to prep for midterms, right here. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:32Speaker 01

  How far would you go to have a healthy baby?

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Embryo editing is very much illegal in the United States. It is illegal in most countries. But there is growing interest as the technology has gotten better.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  This week on Explain It To Me, the ethics of embryo maxing. Listen to new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Are you running a marathon this season? Then I need you to know the 10 mistakes that will disrupt your race before you even reach the starting line. I'm Rabin Arson, and I am running my 28th marathon and ninth New York City marathon in two weeks. In the latest episode of my podcast, Project Swagger, I'm turning my mistakes into your lessons. Watch or listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Just search Project Swagger. See you there and at the finish line.

• 1:27Kara Swisher?

  He could get you if he wanted.

• 1:28Speaker 05

  Oh, he has tried. Don't let anybody tell you the contrary. I can tell you about that, too.

• 1:41Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kara Swisher.

• 1:43Speaker 05

  And I'm Hillary Clinton.

• 1:44Kara Swisher?

  We back. We're back, Hillary.

• 1:46Speaker 05

  We are. They're back again.

• 1:48Kara Swisher?

  What the heck? Have you got good response for this?

• 1:51Speaker 05

  I have had an amazing response, and it's been lovely. People have told me that they loved listening to us together. A lot of people say they're a Kara Swisher fan. So thanks for, you know, doing it with her. So, yeah, it's been terrific.

• 2:04Kara Swisher?

  Oh, good. Well, I'm glad. Well, we have a lot to get to today.

• 2:07Speaker 05

  We do.

• 2:07Kara Swisher?

  And I just want to say, welcome back to High Stakes from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. Now, the midterm elections are less than two weeks away, and we're talking about issues that matter most to voters. We're very interested in helping voters with substantive discussions here. This week, we're going to be digging into corruption and accountability as our topic of the week, because there's plenty of that. We're going to get into the headlines. But first, were you at a karaoke party last night?

• 2:32Speaker 05

  Oh, I was. I have a political organization called Onward Together, and we partnered with the Latino Victory Fund to have a night of karaoke. And it was incredible. We had Broadway stars. We had TV stars, movie stars. We had all kinds of people who gave their time to this event last night. So, yeah, I'm a little bit tired.

• 2:58Kara Swisher?

  I heard you did not sing.

• 2:59Speaker 05

  I did not sing because--

• 3:00Kara Swisher?

  Why not?

• 3:01Speaker 05

  Well, Kara, I do have a Grammy, but my Grammy is for the spoken word.

• 3:08Kara Swisher?

  Drop that one, right? I do have a Grammy.

• 3:10Speaker 05

  I mean, in high school, the drama teacher let me join my friends in our annual musical as long as I lip synced.

• 3:17Kara Swisher?

  What would be your karaoke song if you sang?

• 3:21Speaker 05

  You know, I would sing anything because they put the lyrics up there. And there's a lot of songs that I really like. I would have loved to have sung "Keep Marching" from Suf's because I thought that would have fit the moment, right?

• 3:34Kara Swisher?

  That's very serious. I was thinking Gloria Gaynor, "I Will Survive."

• 3:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, "I Will Survive." That's not bad. I would maybe sing "Fight Song" by Rachel Platten.

• 3:42Kara Swisher?

  "The Fight Song," right? Yeah, that's right. You have a lot. I'm still here with Stephen Sondheim.

• 3:46Speaker 05

  I love that, yeah.

• 3:47Kara Swisher?

  You know, you can have whiskey in your hand. President Trump is catching bipartisan flak. This is right in your wheelhouse now--

• 3:55Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 3:55Kara Swisher?

  --for waiving new Russian sanctions days before they kicked in. And now the White House is trying to buy some time. Marco Rubio says the president will take up to two months to weigh what the sanctions would do to the economy and doesn't want to scare Russia away from peace talks. You posted a snippet from one of your 2016 debates. It's going all over the internet with Trump. That was very prescient. Let's play that.

• 4:20Speaker 06

  Putin, from everything I see, has no respect for this person.

• 4:26Speaker 05

  Well, that's because he'd rather have a puppet as president--

• 4:29Speaker 06

  No puppet, no puppet.

• 4:30Speaker 05

  It's pretty clear--

• 4:31Speaker 06

  You're the puppet.

• 4:32Speaker 05

  It's pretty clear you won't admit--

• 4:34Speaker 06

  No, you're the puppet.

• 4:34Speaker 05

  --that the Russians have engaged in cyber attacks against the United States of America, that you encouraged espionage against our people, that you are willing to spout the Putin line, sign up for his wish list, break up NATO, do whatever he wants to do, and that you continue to get help from him because he has a very clear favorite in this race.

• 5:02Kara Swisher?

  Well, looks like you're right.

• 5:03Speaker 05

  So true.

• 5:04Kara Swisher?

  So, what, little background. How did you come-- puppet is a great word, and it drove him crazy. That's clear. You're a puppet. You're a puppet. Like, that was so strange. But this, like, everybody is putting this up and it's like-- the 10-year anniversary-- this is 10 years, exactly.

• 5:18Speaker 05

  I know.

• 5:19Kara Swisher?

  Talk about then and now. I'd really like to get sort of the background when you decided the word puppet, because that was a very particular word. You knew it would get under his skin. And what's happening now? And I'm going to-- you're going to have to talk about this because I'm not the expert here.

• 5:32Speaker 05

  You know, Kara, 10 years ago, it became very clear, although maybe not to enough people, that Trump was enamored of Putin's absolute power, that he had been trying to do business. And we later learned he continued to try to do business to build a Trump Tower in Moscow throughout the 2016 campaign, despite, you know, claims to the contrary, that he called on Putin to basically hack into, you know, my email account. We had information from our intelligence services about how Russia was helping Trump to win. I mean, the list was really long. And he also was on record--

• 6:17Kara Swisher?

  Which he called the Russia hoax, right? That's what he called it.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  He calls it the Russia hoax. He does that with every claim against him that is provable, whether it's in court or in politics, because he never wants to admit what the truth is. And so, yes, he has been now for 10 years trying to downplay the importance of the help that Putin gave him in order to win. And the record is incredibly convincing that not only was he favored by Putin, but Putin used intelligence assets to help him online, to help him, you know, by trying to bring me down and a lot of other, what the Russians call, active measures to get the result they wanted, which was, you know, Trump is president. Because I had tangled with Putin.

• 7:05Speaker 05

  I had stood up to Putin. I had pointed out, you know, a lot of the actions that Putin took that were not only bad for the Russian people, but bad for Europe, bad for the United States. And so now, fast forward 10 years. We are seeing in real time everything that I warned about and everything that evidence proved, which is that, you know, Trump is more devoted to Putin than he is to freedom, democracy, and frankly, America's national security.

• 7:38Kara Swisher?

  And why? Why is he doing this now? Because first of all, the Senate passed that bill, the bipartisan bill--

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Right.

• 7:44Kara Swisher?

  --in honor of Lindsey Graham, who recently died. Why do this right this second? Is he trying to help the midterms? Because that's one of the excuses is that it's, you know, it'll clear the way for the midterms in some fashion. But everybody's pushing back, like, everybody, which is pretty astonishing to have sort of a bipartisan response, including Lindsey Graham's sister, who's running for Senate. Why do this now?

• 8:10Speaker 05

  Well, I think he made an attempt to link the Ukrainians' efforts to defend themselves and take the fight to Russia as somehow affecting gas and diesel prices. That's a total lie. The rise in fuel prices is predominantly due to his reckless war, unsuccessful reckless war against Iran. So he did try to make a political case, but nobody's taking that seriously. I think it comes down to really three things. I think, first of all, he remains enamored of strong men, leaders who can do whatever they want, including killing their opponents. I mean, it's truly unbelievable that we have a president

• 8:52Speaker 05

  who wants to be an authoritarian dictator with all of the unchecked power that that suggests. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is, he is--

• 9:04Speaker 05

  Desperate to make more money by making more deals with Russia. You know, there's been a lot of coverage, The Wall Street Journal, by the way, has done a really good job uncovering a lot of what Trump is up to, along with his family and his, you know, close associates. They want to make financial deals with Russia, including, you know, oil and gas deals, critical mineral deals. They want-

• 9:31Kara Swisher?

  And in Ukraine, and in Ukraine.

• 9:33Speaker 05

  Well, both with Russian assets like oil and, and, and gas fields, you know, Lukoil, their, you know, their national oil company. But it's also about carving up Ukrainian assets and getting Ukraine to basically give up on the territory that Russia has invaded and held. So there's, whenever you see Trump doing anything, the old, you know, slogan, follow the money, follow the money, follow the money.

• 10:02Kara Swisher?

  So number two is money. Number one is he likes strong men.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  He likes strong men. Number, number two is, is the money. And, you know, third, I continue to believe that Putin has things on Trump. I continue to believe that he is holding photos, videos, whatever it might be. It's just how strongly Trump has fought against the release of the Epstein files. And when we finally see all the Epstein files, I think even the people who supported Trump are going to be shocked by what it shows about Trump. So honestly, I think it's, you know, wannabe dictator, it is money, money, money, and

• 10:45Speaker 05

  it is, you know, let's keep Putin happy so he doesn't dump what he has on me.

• 10:50Kara Swisher?

  I think it's called compromise, right?

• 10:52Speaker 05

  Compromise, that's exactly right.

• 10:53Kara Swisher?

  Compromise. What will happen next? Can he, can he hold the line here? Because he doesn't seem to have any support for this anywhere, including-

• 11:01Speaker 05

  No, but here's the problem, the way that, that, we have other sanctions bills that, that should govern his behavior. This recent one, which was bipartisan, passed in, in memory of Lindsey Graham, you know, did have a provision that the sanctions could be waived for national security reasons by the president. And so by waiving those sanctions, he lifts the pressure off of Russia. And the pressure was really beginning to take hold.

• 11:28Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 05

  And he's also trying to do other things, like cutting intelligence sharing, cutting, you know, Starlink and Starshield coverage for Ukraine, trying to slow down the European deliveries of Patriot missile defense equipment. So honestly, he, he is doing everything he can to hurt Ukraine, this really brave, resilient country with its brave, resilient president, standing up to Putin, who thought he was going to be able to sweep in and take over Ukraine in a week. They have held out, they have pushed back, and they have-

• 12:05Kara Swisher?

  It's astonishing.

• 12:06Speaker 05

  Really damaged a lot of the oil refineries and other facilities, along with data centers inside Russia. So my hope is that enough pressure from Republicans and others causes Trump to turn on Starlink and Starshield, causes him to, you know, not prevent the Europeans. But I would, if I were the Europeans, go ahead and deliver whatever I had to the Ukrainians. I mean, why should they do, you know, his bidding?

• 12:34Kara Swisher?

  Right, but it creates, he's being very explicit, he's being very explicitly anti-Zelensky. He's sort of mad at him because he's pushing back.

• 12:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, that's, you know, it's always a tell with Trump. He always accuses people of what he himself is doing. And it's, if somebody were to link all those together, you would see the pattern so clearly.

• 12:54Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, absolutely. So you stick with puppet.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, puppet, he is a puppet. He's a, he's a, he's a willing Putin puppet to help Putin. You know, Putin's not going to stop with Ukraine. And I guess, you know, Trump has this idea that he wants to divide the world. He gets the Western Hemisphere, Putin gets Russia and Europe, and Xi Jinping gets the rest of the world. But, you know, that's the kind of mindset these guys have.

• 13:20Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's like 100 years ago. Anyway, all right, we're going to move on. Actor Matthew McConaughey, whom I interviewed, which was a little dicey interview for him, is slamming the two-party system and posted a six-minute video over the weekend calling voters to check out independent candidates. I do like independent candidates. I do think there needs to be sort of a shakeup and stuff like that. I don't think he articulated it very well, but here's some of what he had to say.

• 13:43Speaker 07

  The reality is midterms are coming, and this November, in more places than ever, you do have more than two choices. And I'm not telling you who to vote for, I'm telling you to look at your ballot, study up, see if they represent you, what you believe in. Check if they can be that voice of reason in the middle for you. And if they can, treat them like a potential winner, because they can be.

• 14:08Speaker 05

  You know, I think it's really unfortunate that somebody who's such a great actor with such a, a reach, would be two weeks before a midterm that is aimed at stopping Trump's corruption, impunity, and extreme damage to our country, would suggest that any independent candidate is really a better choice. Right now, we have a broad range of Democrats running, and Democrats are representing, I think, every kind of American in these elections. And we know, I mean, it's just a fact, we know that if we don't vote for Democrats to defeat Republicans, then Trump will have two more unchecked years to do whatever he wants to our country.

• 14:53Kara Swisher?

  One of the things that was surprising, and someone who worked in the Clinton administration, James Carville, told Bill Kristol on the Bulwark Podcast, I would be disappointed if it comes in at 225 House seats. I would rather the Republicans keep the House by five than Democrats win by five, because if that happens, they're hostage to the DSA. That was something, that, were you surprised by that?

• 15:15Speaker 05

  Well, I just disagree with James. I mean, I think when, a win is a win. And I remember when Nancy Pelosi had to deal with the so-called Squad, she figured out a way to do it. And, you know, all the DSA candidates are not all the same, they're not a monolithic block. And I think that Hakeem Jeffries as Speaker can manage, you know, how to get, you know, enough of them to support a Democratic agenda, because look at what the alternative is. I mean, are we going to turn our country back over to the crazy Republicans who we have seen not only be do-nothings, but refuse to hold Trump accountable for anything? But I actually think we're going to do better than that. I think we're going to have a bigger margin, based on, you know, everything that I'm seeing

• 16:00Speaker 05

  and hearing.

• 16:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it looks like it's crashing for Trump right now. But when you think about the idea of an independent party, because they've got so much push check, people are terrified, people are terrified of Trump winning in any way.

• 16:12Speaker 05

  Right.

• 16:13Kara Swisher?

  When is the right time to have an independent talk? And I, I think McConaughey's timing couldn't have been worse, and he seems a little dizzy, honestly.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  Look, I think we, we have two independent members of the Senate right now, Angus King from Maine, Bernie Sanders from Vermont. We have a really good independent candidate running in Montana, who I do think is a, a real alternative to the Democrat, who seems to, you know, in my view, not really represent the Democratic Party very well. So, yeah, there are a few select places where independents, number one, can win, because let's remember, that's what this is about. It's about winning. It's not about, you know, an emotional catharsis. It's about winning enough seats. And Angus King and Bernie Sanders both caucus with the Democrats, because they understand that their views are much closer to the Democratic Party than to the Republican Party.

• 17:06Speaker 05

  So if you have, you know, what I would call common sense independents, who can win and not just take votes away from Democrats so that Republicans win, but those are very few and far between. So in this election in particular, the vast majority of voters are going to be better off if we end up with a, you know, good, healthy majority in the House and a majority in the Senate of Democrats.

• 17:31Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right. But this, this longing for an independent party, I mean, you're a student of history, so am I, this idea that there should, that these parties are, are not working for Americans, and there have been shifts in our country when this has happened, do you see that happening anytime soon?

• 17:47Speaker 05

  I can't see it happening anytime soon. I can see, you know, a very strong and, I hope, healthy debate within the Democratic Party, between the center, the center-left and the far-left, because, as I've said over and over again, I think that does represent a full range of views in America. The Republican Party is no longer a political party, it is a cult devoted to Trump and Trump's power. And so the Republican Party needs a total, you know, transformation. And I think that's what the country really needs. We, if, if we're going to have a healthy government that actually gets things done

• 18:30Speaker 05

  and delivers for people, then the Republican Party has to purge itself of, you know, everybody who lost both their conscience and their backbone over the last 10 years, and that's most of them. But if that doesn't happen, then I can see a, an independent effort within the Republican Party, frankly, on the center-right, to the, you know, non-crazy right, to try to reinvent itself after Trump.

• 18:56Kara Swisher?

  Right, and do you think that will happen?

• 18:58Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 18:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah. He has a hold on them, even with the declining ratings, right, as they're going down to the baseline.

• 19:05Speaker 05

  It is unlike anything I ever thought we'd see in American politics. I mean, he has a hold on them out of, you know, maybe they believe him, maybe they agree with him, maybe they're intimidated and scared of him, maybe they're cynical and they just want to stay in power, whatever the reasons are. He has a grip on the Republican Party. Now, it'll be interesting, if we win the House and Senate, and if you vote for Democrats, we will win the House and the Senate, in my opinion, if we win, when we win, and we start trying to hold him accountable. I'm going to be interested to see which Republicans start moving back off the cult cliff into a more reasonable political position.

• 19:52Kara Swisher?

  Any guesses?

• 19:53Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't know yet.

• 19:54Kara Swisher?

  Vance didn't back Netanyahu, didn't say it wouldn't back Netanyahu for the election, for example, anybody?

• 20:01Speaker 05

  I think he's such a shapeshifter, nobody knows what he believes. And so whatever, whatever looks like it might be to his advantage, he's going to say he believes, as he has apparently throughout his entire life. But I think whether there's a contest for the Republican presidential nomination is going to be very telling. If people just anoint Vance because he was vice president, first of all, I think we'll have a really good chance of beating him, no matter who we nominate.

• 20:29Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 05

  But if there's a contest within the Republican Party, and I don't know who would have the guts or the means to stand up and say, we can't continue to be the cult of Trump. We've got to get back to being a real political party and getting things done for the American people. But you know, maybe one of the Republican governors will say, I'm taking my country back. I'm not going to sit by, I'm going to be the successor to Trump. And, you know, here I am. I don't know. We'll have to wait and see.

• 20:54Kara Swisher?

  Mal Kennedy's may run, Tillis could run.

• 20:56Speaker 05

  Who knows?

• 20:57Kara Swisher?

  There could be.

• 20:57Speaker 05

  Who knows?

• 20:58Kara Swisher?

  Who knows? Who knows? We'll see. Massey, there's all kinds. Marjorie Taylor Greene, why are we leaving out Marjorie Taylor Greene?

• 21:04Speaker 05

  Well, she may run too. Who knows?

• 21:05Kara Swisher?

  She may run too. That'll be fun. She's, she is now to the left of me at this point. Like, I don't know what is going on. Every time I'm like, ma'am, what is happening? I don't, I don't trust her.

• 21:16Speaker 05

  I'm not sure she's quite to the left of you, but she has moved off of a lot of her positions. That is true.

• 21:21Kara Swisher?

  It's like, what happened?

• 21:22Speaker 05

  I think what happened is, you know.

• 21:25Kara Swisher?

  What, was it creatine?

• 21:26Speaker 05

  You know, nothing like a woman scorned. She was scorned and she's getting even in every way she can. So just sit back, buy your popcorn and let's watch.

• 21:36Kara Swisher?

  Yes, we'll see, Marjorie, we'll see. Okay, Madam Secretary, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we're going to get to the big issue, one of your favorites, corruption.

• 21:50Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. On high stakes, Hillary and I talk about the choices shaping our democracy. Here's a fundamental one. Who should hold power in America, the people or religion? Our founders created a constitution that bars religious tests for public office and the First Amendment protects your freedom to believe or not believe. Yet we're seeing growing efforts to blur the line between religion and government from public schools to public policy. When government takes sides on religion, everyone's freedom is at risk. The Freedom From Religion Foundation works to keep state and church separate. FFRF also stands up for free thinkers, atheists, agnostics, and millions of nonreligious Americans whose voices deserve to be heard.

• 22:32Kara Swisher?

  Visit FFRF.us/kara or text Kara, K-A-R-A, to 511511 to learn more or to join. Because promoting democracy means protecting freedom for everyone. Text Kara to 511511 or go to FFRF.us/kara. Text fees may apply.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 23:29Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brook-Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 24:08Kara Swisher?

  All right, Madam Secretary, we're back. Corruption is now the top concern among voters in a Fox News poll. This was really interesting, even beating inflation and healthcare. Usually those are inflation, the economy is usually at the very top. We're going to talk about who's cashing in and what to do about it. But first, let's hear from our good friend and that charm offensive JD Vance.

• 24:28Speaker 06

  Do you hate fraud? Do you think it's despicable when fraudsters steal from our fellow Americans and then go buy luxury mansions and fancy cars? Does it tick you off when our elderly and most vulnerable are taken advantage of? And do you want to do more to stop it? Then join my pledge to protect Americans from fraud. I'm calling on every member of Congress, as well as local and statewide officials, and anyone seeking public office to rise to the occasion and make a simple commitment. And by committing to this effort, you will pledge to protect all Americans from fraud, relentlessly find the fraudsters, throw criminals in prison, and ensure that our

• 25:09Speaker 06

  government programs benefit law-abiding citizens, not the fraudsters who are stealing from our country.

• 25:16Kara Swisher?

  Oh, my God. The fraudsters! You were laughing the whole time.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  I mean, how absurd and how dumb does he think we are? Unless by that, he's suggesting that he's going to start with all the people who have been defrauding America, who are starting with the president and everybody around him.

• 25:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he should look up. That's what I kept thinking. It's, this is, this is, this was a video he put out, calling on elected officials to sign a six-point nationwide anti-fraud pledge, which, fraudsters, fraudsters, everybody. It's coming at one of the most corrupt administrations of all time. I think most people agree. Before we get into the many, many specific examples, explain for us how corruption affects voters in their daily lives.

• 25:59Speaker 05

  There are so many ways that corruption affects individual Americans. For example, if contracts are given to people who are unqualified and ineligible, like members of Trump's family and their associates, you know, that is a level of corruption that wastes taxpayers' money. It comes right out of your pocket because when you pay your taxes to the government, you are expecting a level of accountability and standards that are going to be fulfilled. You can also see that pattern in the pardons that Trump has given. And the ones that I find particularly obnoxious are all the people that he has pardoned for

• 26:40Speaker 05

  healthcare fraud, people who have raised the cost of what hospitals charge you or what Medicare can pay. These are people who have stolen your hard-earned money and your tax money to put into their own pockets. And Donald Trump has pardoned them. And he's not only pardoned them from their criminal convictions and the prison sentences that they were supposed to be serving, he's pardoned them so they don't have to make rescissions to the individuals that they defrauded and the hospitals that they defrauded and the government programs that they defrauded.

• 27:17Speaker 05

  And we also see a lot of fraud that begins to creep into how effective our military is. Because if you're giving contracts to people who don't know what they're doing and are not producing good equipment, that's like what happened to the Russian military. The Russian military is riddled by corruption, which is one of the reasons why all of the fears that they would conquer Ukraine in a week turned out to be non-founded fears because they were so corrupt. The money was being siphoned off, probably starting in the Kremlin, all the way down to individuals. I'll tell you a really quick story.

• 27:58Speaker 05

  So when I was Secretary of State, when people talk about terrible civilian massacres, you know, the worst in the last 30 years has happened in the eastern Congo. So one of the reasons was because the Congolese military was never paid. And why weren't they paid? Because the way the government in Kinshasa would pay them was to put cash into suitcases. And that the cash would go from the general to the colonel, to the captain, to the lieutenant. And by the time it got to the soldiers on the front line in eastern Congo, there was no money left in the suitcase. And so soldiers would leave. They would go home or they would join a militia that promised to pay them. And I said to the government, why don't we go to paying the soldiers through their phones?

• 28:43Speaker 05

  Let's set up a system. We will help you do that. And I put people to work on it and we put up a great system and we took it to the Congolese government. And we said, here's how you can make sure your soldiers are paid. And they at first said, oh, that's wonderful. What a great idea. And then when they got pressure from the military and government officials, who were also profiting, they came back and said, no, no, that's not going to work. So I use that as an example because when people have their hands out, either getting corrupt contracts, making deals with corrupt cyber companies and others around the world, pardoning fraudsters, you know, that all is coming out of our pockets.

• 29:25Speaker 05

  The profit that the Trump family has made off of the presidency.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  Could actually pay for a full year of SNAP benefits for about 1.3 million people, more than 600 million free school lunches, or three months of groceries for the 5.2 million people who have been thrown off SNAP.

• 29:47Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 29:48Speaker 05

  So that's putting it into, you know, very concrete terms. You're wasting your tax money, the corruption is rife, it's undermining government services, even our national defense, and it is hurting people who should be able to get some support because of their, you know, needs for food or their need to pay their bills. Look, we already know that he's a fraudster, you know, just to kind of keep this in line with the evidence that we have. Here's the stuff that's actually been taken to court, and the courts have ruled against Trump. Let's remember this, because, you know, what they say politically doesn't have to stand up to the rules of evidence. What happens in court actually has to be proven, either beyond a reasonable doubt

• 30:33Speaker 05

  in a criminal court, or with the preponderance of evidence in a civil proceeding. So there were the 34 felony counts in the so-called hush money case, which was really an election interference case for falsifying business records to mislead voters. He got the civil fraud finding on the books for inflating the values of his assets and his businesses to get better business deals. And then he was found liable in the E. Jean Carroll case for sexual abuse and defamation. So I think it's important that whenever he's been to court, and that has happened numerous times, because remember, he went bankrupt a bunch of times, that was through the court system.

• 31:18Speaker 05

  And in the court system, he tried to overturn the 2020 election, but couldn't do it because he didn't have the evidence. So I think it's important to keep in mind, when we talk about him being a fraudster, which he is, we're not just saying it for political purposes, we have real, solid evidence.

• 31:36Kara Swisher?

  There's also stuff that's legally unethical, and let me give you a few examples. The Qatari jet, the pay-to-play pardons, as you noted, using the Justice Department to investigate political enemies, you're often, he could get you if he wanted.

• 31:49Speaker 05

  Oh, he has tried. Don't let anybody tell you contrary. I can tell you about that, too.

• 31:54Kara Swisher?

  Attacking universities, law firms, and broadcast networks. The ballroom renovation paid for by donors with businesses before the government renaming the Kennedy Center, and there's all manner of stuff now brewing there about who's taking what money and where it went. The Putin-connected oligarch paying for Don Jr.'s wedding parties, and more. And it just, these are unethical or things people didn't think people would do.

• 32:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:19Kara Swisher?

  Right? Including tearing down trees, which is just a shitty thing to do, right? But it's not, doesn't stop. So I think one of the things that's really surprising to me is how much you really can't do anything about right now, especially if you're not in power, right?

• 32:36Speaker 05

  Well, that's why we need to elect a Democratic Congress, among many reasons, Kara, to, you know, help the American people with affordability, but also to go after the corruption. And, you know, congressional investigations, state attorneys generals have been really in the forefront of this. The federal courts, when cases have gotten to them, have, you know, been pretty good until frankly, they get to, they get to the Supreme Court. And so honestly, I know that you and Scott have been doing your Grif watch over on Pivot. So what in your mind are the worst examples of corruption?

• 33:15Kara Swisher?

  To me, I think, you know, of course, all those tech people sitting in front of the inaugural was a big tell for me. They were sitting there, because they were, I called them pigs at the trough, right? That they really knew, if they put in this coin-operated president some money, they'd get a lot out. And so that's, now, look, this has been around forever, this kind of thing, but it was so explicit, that was one of them. I think if I had to pick all of the various things, and I think we get, like, he's so corrupt all over the place, that it's easy, it's hard to pick, but I would think, to me, is the cyber stuff, the cyber, because according to his own financial disclosures, he's pulled in at least $2.2 billion his first year in office, and a big chunk of that, it came from crypto. And to me, I think crypto is where everybody should look at.

• 33:59Kara Swisher?

  This is, this is, this is something that's really easy to track, easier than you think. And I happen to know, there's a bunch of techies tracking all these crypto transactions.

• 34:10Speaker 05

  Well, we're going to need them. Tell them to keep doing it.

• 34:12Kara Swisher?

  That's correct. Yes, they are, because I think it's really, to me, crypto is where he's doing the most damage, and that's where we need to push, is what they've been doing in playing games.

• 34:22Speaker 05

  So when you say that, you know, people are following that, we really need them to keep following it, because I'm a little bit hopeful that, once we get control of the Congress again, we can do some deep dive investigations, and we need to bring it all into the, you know, bright light of the sun and let people make up their own minds.

• 34:42Kara Swisher?

  Although, we could all spend, I think we need to be very specific, because if we spend all our time chasing down all his corruption, it is going to take up all our time to do things for the American people.

• 34:51Speaker 05

  No, I think you could walk and chew gum at the same time, but it has to be highly disciplined, and it has to be, you know, much more than the usual kind of, you know, confusing display of congressional hearings where everybody's talking for five minutes. But I also want to ask you, so when a UAE-backed firm buys half of the Trump family's crypto company, does that mean that crypto is the new way to buy access?

• 35:21Kara Swisher?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 05

  And, you know, we know crypto is used for money laundering, so tell us about how it's being used in Silicon Valley.

• 35:29Kara Swisher?

  Well, I think it's just, you know, one of the things that was really interesting about the last election was how much crypto money was in there, and Sherrod Brown certainly found out the hard way. And a lot of them, you know, they have backed off a little bit, but because they didn't get quite what they wanted in that bill, the Clarity Act, that was, Clarity Act, that's what it was called, that didn't go through. And there needs to be some regulation in this area, and probably under the Biden administration, there was too much, right? There was too much pushback. And so these guys got all their money together and put people down, they just did, very similar to what tech is doing in this election. And I do think that there's all these great uses for crypto, but I think in this case, the UAE buys half of this crypto company, and these various people investing, it's,

• 36:14Kara Swisher?

  to me, it's just a way to pay bribes. It feels bribe-like, bribe-adjacent. And of course, Silicon Valley, you know, is part of that. It's part of creating the system so that the Trump family can create these gains, and what really sort of, excuse me, chaps my ass, is that all these people in his cult buy into these, whether it's the Melania coin, or the Trump coins, or whatever, and then, I don't know, 90% of everybody loses money, like quite a substantive amount. And so it's, that's what's really grotesque about it. Like, it's just a scam, just like fraudsters, right? You know, fraudsters are at you, and it feels so cheap, and again, also a way for foreign

• 36:57Kara Swisher?

  countries to come in here and buy power. Now, let me ask you a question, you know, everyone gets accused of corruption, and some cares. And you were called Crooked Hillary.

• 37:06Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:07Kara Swisher?

  To push him back against what you were accused, I think it was about Goldman Sachs buying access to the Clinton global initiatives, why is Trump getting away with so much? And again, all politicians are accused of this, including yourself.

• 37:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, look, yeah, look, I've been accused of nearly everything, and ironically, you know, when people actually investigate it, because, believe me, they investigate it, and even when Trump was president the first time, he had everybody investigating me again, and, you know, thankfully, there was no there there. But with him, what's happened is that he has a supine Congress that will not hold him accountable, he has a Supreme Court that is majority movement conservatives who have given him immunity from, you know, God knows what, because it's a broad grant of immunity, which is disgraceful, in my opinion. He has some appellate courts that are still majority in favor of him.

• 38:05Speaker 05

  The district courts have actually done a pretty good job trying to rein him in, but then, as they go up to the Supreme Court, these cases end up on what's called the shadow docket. And what John Roberts basically does is to say, well, we're not going to get to the merits, we'll get to the merits at some future date, so we're going to let him keep doing whatever it is he's doing. He also has no shame, and apparently, that seems to be an advantage in these times when there's no accountability. He also makes alliances with foreign interests, financial interests in foreign countries, that understand that it's all transactional.

• 38:47Speaker 05

  So it's a real witch's brew of impunity, and it's so dangerous for the country. You know, if there are checks and balances, if there are rules that you're supposed to follow, and if people actually follow those rules, like, you know, one of the things that chaps me is the Supreme Court has literally no rules about ethics. So all the stories we heard about all the benefits going to certain of the justices, you know, there are no rules.

• 39:13Kara Swisher?

  You know, if you had become a Supreme Court justice, you could have had, you know, a big giant van to drive around the country.

• 39:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, that was never anything I ever wanted, but, you know, you can say, I wish the rules were stronger, and I wish they were, you know, tougher on enforcement, but if you follow the rules, that's one thing. But if you don't follow the rules, and you don't get held accountable, and in fact, you are rewarded for not following the rules, you know, Trump just basically thumps his nose at every norm, law, you know, ethic that you can imagine.

• 39:46Speaker 05

  Gets away with it because he has a cult and he has, it's like, you know, mafia boss. He has everybody bought in to what he's trying to achieve. And I think part of what we have to do is put in new rules that cannot be flouted, the way he has flouted them.

• 40:05Kara Swisher?

  Should we have, so one of the things, Scott often, it kind of drives me crazy. He's like, well, Nancy Pelosi was doing these stock deals. Like, the whole stock issue with Congress is insane. Like, I don't think they should be able to trade stocks.

• 40:16Speaker 05

  I agree with that.

• 40:16Kara Swisher?

  That's my feeling.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  Look, they can have blind trust, but that's different. Yeah.

• 40:20Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, but one of the things is equating them. That's the difficulty is like, okay, that's bad, but, right? What Trump is doing is far worse.

• 40:26Speaker 05

  Well, it is bad, but because you've got members of Congress and some of them may be, you know, trading stocks and we want to put an end to that because it's not a good look. And then you have Trump, who literally has personally traded more stocks than I think every president combined by a factor of 10.

• 40:44Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 40:44Speaker 05

  And nobody holds him accountable.

• 40:46Kara Swisher?

  But the beginning parts lead to this. Like, if they're going to take a small amount, I mean, to me, you should be paying politicians more money. They can't trade and they can't do this revolving door the minute they leave office, right? I mean, is there any way to stop that?

• 41:01Speaker 05

  I don't disagree with any of that, but I think we need to pass laws that actually have teeth in them. And unfortunately, you know, Trump's view of the presidency is if I want to do it, it's legal and get out of my way.

• 41:16Kara Swisher?

  That's what he says.

• 41:17Speaker 05

  And we need tougher laws in Congress because I agree with you. We want to try to, you know, make sure people aren't, you know, second guessing and wondering why these decisions were made. But we have to have tougher laws on the executive and judicial branches, too. And if we're going to have checks and balances, we need to remove the reality and even the hint of corruption from all three branches of government.

• 41:42Kara Swisher?

  All right. To end this, what do you imagine? I will say what I think needs to happen initially is term limits on everybody. Term limits on all politicians and Supreme Court justices. We have one on the president, two terms, right? But term limits on everybody and with either an age limit or a number limit or something like that, or probably, probably a number limit, like nine years through the Supreme Court, et cetera.

• 42:07Speaker 05

  Well, I don't agree about term limits, so I disagree with you. I think that

• 42:11Kara Swisher?

  Why?

• 42:11Speaker 05

  I think that term limits are artificial. I think voters get to make the choice. And if somebody you and I think shouldn't be running again, then vote against them. But I don't think term limits are a particularly good device. I think limiting corruption, I think putting, you know, boundaries around what they can do. And I also think it would be very difficult to have term limits on Supreme Court justices because you'd have to amend the Constitution. I think instead, we should seriously look at expanding the court while the Democrats are in power. You know, it used to be that you'd have one justice for each circuit. We now have 13 circuits. We should have 13 justices. So I would be in, you know, favor of looking at that and see if we could, you know, make it work.

• 42:57Kara Swisher?

  All right, Madam Secretary, let's take a quick break. When we come back, can anyone actually hold them accountable?

• 43:06Speaker 00

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• 43:36Speaker 06

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• 44:17Speaker 06

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• 44:27Speaker 03

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• 45:00Speaker 05

  Kara, we're back. And we're talking about how to get accountability. Now, Trump officials, from cabinet secretaries all the way down to, you know, local officials are reportedly lawyering up in case Democrats win Congress, which I hope and pray we do. And Democrats are already sending warning letters. And why are they sending that? Because they're telling them to preserve evidence. And lawyers think the subpoenas could start flying as soon as February. So Kara, if the Democrats win the House, what do you think is the very first investigation they should open?

• 45:38Kara Swisher?

  Oh, probably around crypto.

• 45:40Speaker 05

  On crypto?

• 45:40Kara Swisher?

  I think it's the easiest one. Crypto, because, you know, there's so many to choose from. I mean, I think what I don't want to happen is go down a bunch of loud mouth highways, right? Where they get to just pontificate in front of Congress because everyone will think they're kind of wasting time. If they, they talk about, even though the reflecting pool makes me sad, that, or something like that. To me, the money is, we need to look where the money is, where all the money is and what he's doing with the money and everything around these arrangements with Putin, like that, that kind of stuff. The big, heavy duty stuff to me is, is the most important. One of the, and the second thing is to look at the relationships between tech and Donald Trump. That's, that's where I would go. And,

• 46:24Kara Swisher?

  you know, one of the things that tech is counting on is the Democrats will be weak about this.

• 46:28Speaker 05

  And disorganized. Yeah.

• 46:30Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, not just disorganized, but like, oh, let's just forgive them. We like their money. Like, and you sort of start to see bits of that. And so they've said that to me. They're like, well, Trump will kill us. The Democrats will forgive us. And I'm like, I'm, not if I'm there.

• 46:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, or me either. The two of us. If our voices can still be heard, you know?

• 46:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 05

  First of all, it's good for the Democrats to go after corruption. And it's good for the country, which is even more important.

• 46:52Kara Swisher?

  So what should they leave alone? What do you think should happen? And what accountability and what's just payback in that regard?

• 46:58Speaker 05

  I am against impeaching Donald Trump because I think it's a sideshow and he can't get convicted. But I am in favor of opening impeachment investigations into some of the elected officials or the appointed officials. I mean, you know, people like Pete Hegseth, who I think is hollowing out our military, politicizing our military, you know, turning it into a militia for his Christian national ambitions. And I think he needs to be held accountable. And there are others as well. I also think, along with you, we need really smart, disciplined investigations. And that does go to where the money is coming from,

• 47:42Speaker 05

  who is receiving it, and what are they getting in return? So we need to look at government contracts. We need to look at the pay for play that we saw with the ballroom and everything else. So I think follow the money. That's where it should, you know, be the first order of business.

• 47:59Kara Swisher?

  The other one I would look at would be Doge. Like, what happened? And where did the information go? And what did Elon get? You know, I think if you had to pick one tech figure, I suppose, one of the reasons he backed Trump in the first place, and I said this at the time, everyone was surprised, was that it was an existential crisis for him. If he didn't, those investigations that were already beginning and the scrutiny would have continued. And he managed to take down every agency that was investigating him. And so to me, he is the example, right, of, of that kind of shadow president. And looking into him would be, I think, a lot, it would be an example and, and might be effective for the Democrats.

• 48:37Speaker 05

  And also, it's another reason to vote for Democrats because he's now putting in somewhere north of $300 million to try to elect Republicans because he knows that if Democrats have the guts to do the investigation that you're talking about, you know, he is going to be in the hot seat.

• 48:54Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. How do you avoid payback, though? I mean, that's the thing, right? I mean, there's probably times in your political years, like, I'm going to get that son of a bitch.

• 49:02Speaker 05

  Well.

• 49:03Kara Swisher?

  Like, how do you, how do you push that away? Because you want to have accountability. And then, of course, it's seen as a witch hunt, or that's what Trump uses, a witch hunt.

• 49:12Speaker 05

  You have to not only do a good job with really smart lawyers, investigators with integrity, but you got to have a good narrative to go along with it. And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. How does this link to the lives of the American people? You know, why does it matter that people in the Trump administration took money from certain companies? Well, one thing might be in order to try to, you know, speed up data centers, for example, which the American people have expressed real opposition to. So we have to make the linkage all the time. You know, we're not investigating for the sake of investigating or payback. We're investigating to get to the bottom of who's

• 49:52Speaker 05

  buying what in our government. So we can hold the people who are taking money to make decisions that are not in the best interest of the American people accountable.

• 50:05Kara Swisher?

  Right. So you link them. Now, our good friend Scott Galley posted a conversation he had with Arizona Senator Mark Kelly on social media. Let me play a clip.

• 50:14Speaker 05

  Let's brainstorm. You decide you're not for president. You're elected. If you could pass one major piece of legislation your first year in the campaign, finance reform. That fixes all the other things. I mean, it makes it much harder for, you know, lobbyists to have influence on members of Congress. Citizens United, no stock trading. Get the massive amounts of money out of politics.

• 50:38Kara Swisher?

  Do you agree?

• 50:38Speaker 05

  I do. I think Mark is absolutely right on that. I do think, however, that legally, the only way to really enshrine it and get it done is with a constitutional amendment. I think that you could pass some legislation that tries to tighten it up and, you know, prevent it from being overturned by the Supreme Court in the meantime. But at the end of the day, I think we have to pass a constitutional amendment to, you know, overturn these ridiculous rulings that this court has given us about.

• 51:09Kara Swisher?

  What would it, what would it say? What would your constitutional amendment say?

• 51:13Speaker 05

  No corporation can contribute money under any circumstances. There is no such thing as dark, unaccounted money. All money must be accounted for. All money must be put into the bright light of public awareness. I mean, the language of it, we would work on, but it would be in direct answer to the courts overturning Citizens United, the court deciding that, you know, political parties could cooperate with candidates so that, you know, there was literally no difference. And the, all of the dark money, unaccounted for money that could be dumped into a party because it couldn't go to the candidate, could be put to the candidate's use. So I am in favor of an amendment to overturn Citizens United and all of the rulings that

• 51:58Speaker 05

  have made our campaign finance so corrupt.

• 52:01Kara Swisher?

  An amendment is difficult.

• 52:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:03Kara Swisher?

  Difficult. We haven't done one in, what, 100?

• 52:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I think, well, you know, the ERA actually got the number of states that it needed, but the argument is whether it was timely enough. So we could do this if we put our mind to it. And somebody like Mark Kelly could, you know, use a lot of his time and political capital making the case as he traveled from state to state.

• 52:23Kara Swisher?

  But do it as an effective, I think people are feeling that way, too. So what does every Democrat need to be saying about corruption?

• 52:32Speaker 05

  That it's costing you money, and when we get the House and Senate back, we're going to end it. And you've got to give us the gavel so that we can pass laws to hold Trump accountable. And if he vetoes them, to put the Republicans on the hot seat so they will overturn the veto.

• 52:49Kara Swisher?

  And why do we trust you? I'm pretending, I'm not, why do I trust you, Hillary? Why would I trust the Democrats? They're just, they're in it for themselves, too.

• 52:57Speaker 05

  You know, you've learned you can't trust the Republicans to stand up to Donald Trump. It's in our interest to stand up to Donald Trump, you know? That is who we are. And if we can have your trust to be in charge again, you know, judge us by results. We will get to work day one on an affordability agenda and an anti-corruption agenda. And we will do everything we can to bring as many Republicans along with us, but we'll pass it without Republicans if you give us a big enough margin.

• 53:23Kara Swisher?

  And do you think Democrats will do that? Because I have the memory of the privacy bills that never got passed. Amy Klobuchar told me year after year it would pass, and then she got shut down by money that flowed into, into the Congress that the Democrats kneecapped it.

• 53:37Speaker 05

  Well, I think, you know, both sides of the political divide have been too influenced by money. And, you know, we need to make sure we have rules that apply to everybody. But if I had to choose between, you know, the two parties as to who's done more to stand up, who's done more to, you know, try to tax billionaires, who's done more to deliver health care despite the opposition, and the list goes on, you know, there's no question that the Democrats are much more on the side of the American people. And that's why the Republicans have always used culture war to try to divert attention away from our economic well-being and the end of corruption, which affects our economy.

• 54:16Speaker 05

  So I think that you can make a, a reasonable bet on the Democrats trying to produce results when it comes to affordability and being against corruption.

• 54:28Kara Swisher?

  Can I ask you one last question? You, you served as a young woman on the, on the committee when you were a lawyer, young lawyer. Where did you learn from that?

• 54:36Speaker 05

  I'll tell you, I was very privileged to be selected as a really young lawyer, like, you know, a year out of law school.

• 54:44Kara Swisher?

  How old were you then?

• 54:45Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh, I was 26, probably, when I started. And to serve on the impeachment inquiry that the Democratic House Judiciary Committee had set up to study whether or not Richard Nixon should be impeached. And here's what I learned. Number one, it was a totally nonpartisan investigation. The lawyer chosen to run it, John Doerr, had been a Republican, appointed to the Civil Rights Division under President Eisenhower, stayed on under Kennedy, impeccable reputation for being a straight shooter and a hero of the civil rights movement in enforcing the laws.

• 55:25Speaker 05

  On the other side, a guy named Albert Jenner, the Republican's choice, who was a very old fashioned Republican who believed in the rule of law. And we were given instructions, Kara, you cannot have an opinion about whether or not we're going to recommend impeachment for President Nixon because it's going to be the facts that determine that. And this was before computers. This was back, you know, in the early 70s. And we literally would write down facts on, you know, index cards and then file them and shuffle them and try to make sense of them. And we also got access to the tapes, listening to Nixon. And I was one of the people who was listening to those tapes.

• 56:09Speaker 05

  And it became really clear that Richard Nixon was obstructing justice and conspiring with his aides to keep the truth from the American people about the Watergate break-in and the use of campaign financing to benefit his campaign. So when the time came, we had established credibility. We were forbidden to talk to the press. I mean, we could not talk to the press, you know? We were leak proof, which was, you know, pretty unique. And when it came time and we recommended articles of impeachment, they were bulletproof. They were based on the evidence. And in fact, they were so convincing that the committee had a bipartisan vote.

• 56:53Speaker 05

  And when that happened, several Republican senators, including Barry Goldwater, went to the White House and said, you're going to be impeached by the full House and you will be convicted based on the evidence. It wasn't partisan. It was looking at the law, looking at the facts. And then Nixon decided, based on what the Republicans had told him, not Democrats, Republicans, that he would resign. So I learned about how to run an investigation with real integrity and discipline.

• 57:25Kara Swisher?

  Integrity.

• 57:25Speaker 05

  And how to follow the evidence.

• 57:27Kara Swisher?

  You're 26 years old. This fucking sucks at the time. It must, you believe in government and you believe.

• 57:32Speaker 05

  I do.

• 57:33Kara Swisher?

  Nixon. How do, how, what do you say? Because I have sons who are like, oh, government just, government doesn't work, when they're actually talking about Trump, right?

• 57:41Speaker 05

  Right.

• 57:42Kara Swisher?

  What do you say, as a 26 year, what kept you, very briefly, being positive about that?

• 57:49Speaker 05

  Because I saw government work. I saw it both fail because of the crimes and illegal activities by the Nixon administration. And then I saw it work by Republicans and Democrats coming together and saying, we can't let this continue. This is terrible for our country. So at the end of the day, I believe in government working if you have people of integrity. That doesn't mean we don't make mistakes. It doesn't mean that, you know, people are not human and, you know, don't do things that are dumb. That, that's just the, you know, way life is. But overall, we saw a government work.

• 58:29Speaker 05

  And we saw then a, a Vice President come to office who made a decision, which a lot of people disagreed with, to pardon Nixon, but did it not because it was a partisan move, in his opinion, Gerald Ford, but to do it because he wanted the country to go on and government to get back to work. So you could argue with him and say that wasn't right, but he didn't do it from a corrupt intent. He did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. And then we saw Jimmy Carter, who, for all of his political, you know, problems, you know, really did try to run an ethical White House. It made mistakes, but, you know, it was at least on the right side.

• 59:09Kara Swisher?

  All right, so government works. All right, Madam Secretary, we'll be back after one more quick break.

• 59:20Speaker 00

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• 59:49Speaker 03

  Listen up, voters. The combined spending of the 2020 election race was over $14 billion. The 2024 campaign was not far behind. Where does all that money come from? Sure, some of it's from we, the people, but far too much of it isn't appropriately tracked or disclosed. The FDA mandates that every food we eat needs to have an ingredients list. The same should be true for campaign donations. And yet, many wealthy donors never have their names associated with the candidates that they're giving millions to. Voters, that's you and me, need to know who's supporting the people we're voting for, because far too often, everything is not as it seems. This week on Network and Chill, we are calling out the failings of the FEC and the whole election funding system as we delve into all things campaign finance.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/yourrichbff.

• 1:00:43Kara Swisher?

  We're back for our completely unscientific focus group. I want to get your thoughts on Donald Trump saying New Mexico should change its name.

• 1:00:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Kara Swisher?

  He posted on Truth Social that the state should, quote, "immediately change its name to New America." We're not Mexico, we are the United States of America. The name would add great value and prestige to the state. New Mexico Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham replied, who is a pistol, let me just say.

• 1:01:10Speaker 05

  I love her.

• 1:01:11Kara Swisher?

  I know. "Under Democratic leadership here in New Mexico, we are providing families with free childcare and college, protecting access to healthcare and investing in housing. While the White House wastes time coloring on maps, Nuevo Mexico is busy doing the work." And then she had a chili pepper emoji.

• 1:01:28Kara Swisher?

  What? I don't know what to say.

• 1:01:31Speaker 05

  You know, look, Kara, I think if we, you know, had a, had a list here, New York would have to change its name, along with New England, and we can go down the list. This is such a psychological, emotional problem that Trump exhibits on a regular basis. He thinks he can dictate names of bodies of water. He thinks he can dictate new names for states, because that's what dictators get to do, and that's what he envisions himself as. And the governor of New Mexico did a great job in just saying, "We're actually doing the business of the people. You're cutting down trees, building ballrooms, renaming, you know, centers that were named for President Kennedy and all the rest of it. What have you done for us lately?"

• 1:02:15Speaker 05

  And the answer, literally, is not much, if anything.

• 1:02:18Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. Well, does New Mexico get to keep the new last name in the divorce? I don't understand. The whole thing is so strange.

• 1:02:25Speaker 05

  I don't know. Is it going to build a wall around New Mexico? I don't know.

• 1:02:28Kara Swisher?

  I don't know. But, but deeper, here's the deeper thing about accountability. He did change the name of the lake in an executive order, and it'll go back. And of course, all the tech companies fell into line.

• 1:02:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, it'll, it'll go back. And a lot of, you know, companies fell in line, and a lot of companies didn't. And the rest of the world didn't.

• 1:02:46Kara Swisher?

  One, MapQuest. Everybody else did.

• 1:02:48Speaker 05

  So we're, we're making a long list of everything we need to change immediately upon getting back into the Congress and then hopefully back into the White House in 2029. So we've got to, we've got to fix it. And we fix it starting in two weeks at the midterms.

• 1:03:04Kara Swisher?

  Right. So, last question, how are you feeling about the, the numbers keep cratering for Trump? It's getting worse, I think. And, and voting has started, by the way. Voting has started all over the country.

• 1:03:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I, I'm still feeling good, but it, you got to take into account the massive amount of money that the Republicans and their allies are pouring into these states. Because, you know, money does talk. That's why they use it. It's not a wasted effort on their part, and they have so much of it. I still feel optimistic, though. I still think we're going to wake up the day after the election, and then we're going to have to worry about what Trump and his allies will do to try to prevent vote counts, to try to prevent, you know, candidates taking their seats in the House and the Senate. And we're prepared. We've done a lot of work on that. So, you know, we're going to, we're going to fight back, just like we're fighting back on the campaign trail.

• 1:03:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, that's true. If only he would sing a karaoke song to raise money, that might help. I don't know.

• 1:03:57Speaker 05

  Well, look, I'd even, I'd even sing if I thought it would stop Trump, you know?

• 1:04:03Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:04Speaker 05

  I'll make that offer.

• 1:04:06Kara Swisher?

  Okay, you make that offer right here. Anyway, thanks for listening to High Stakes from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. In upcoming episodes, we'll be talking about healthcare, big tech, and more, including a special post-election day analysis on what's to come. Hillary sort of signaled that just a second ago. You can also find this show on YouTube on the On with Kara Swisher channel. Hillary, thank you for another great episode. This is such a nice, fun thing to do every week, I have to say.

• 1:04:31Speaker 05

  Oh, thanks a lot, Kara.

• 1:04:35Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Lara Naaman and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Our tape editors are Moes Bergman and Brandon McFarland. Rosemarie Ho provided fact checking. Nick Merrill was in charge of lint rolling. Thanks also to Art Chang, Renee Betterson, and Anna Casey. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to High Stakes from Vox Media. We'll be back next week.

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

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