Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher Matt Belloni on WarnerMount, Disney Succession, Oscars & More About this episode Kara sits down with Matthew Belloni, author of the flagship Puck newsletter What I’m Hearing and host of The Town podcast, to take the entertainment industry’s temperature just a few days before the Academy Awards.
They dig into the Warner Bros. Discovery/Paramount/Netflix saga and the consequences of the Ellison-backed deal for creatives and crews. Then Kara and Matt debate whether consolidation can fix Hollywood’s broken economics and why legacy companies are facing a “Titanic-esque” moment as linear TV collapses.
They also unpack the streaming wars, Netflix’s next moves, Disney’s succession questions and how AI could reshape filmmaking from visual effects to writers’ rooms. Plus, they make their predictions for the Oscars.
Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher.
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Transcript 16,025 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kara Swisher? You're a snarky person, which I love. But, and I love that part, but at your heart, you're an excellent reporter. And that's the critical part.
0:17 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Matt Belloni, author of Puck's flagship newsletter, What I'm Hearing, and the host of the podcast, The Town. It covers the, quote, "real inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood." And amazingly, it actually delivers on that promise. Everyone in Hollywood reads and listens to Matt, whether they like him or not. He doesn't mince his words, which has made him both very popular and a little more than polarizing. I can relate. I'm excited to talk to him because he always has such smart takes on stuff. And Matt, at his heart, is a great reporter. He also has a point of view, and it's formed by reporting. And I really enjoy talking to him. And of course, we're at a real moment for Hollywood and media in general.
1:01 Kara Swisher? And so I couldn't think of someone smarter to talk to about the topic than Matt. Streaming has upended the traditional Hollywood revenue model. Consolidation has become essential to survival. President Trump is then weighing in on editorial decisions and mergers. And AI-generated video is likely to make an already tricky business environment even more complicated. So it's great to have an insider like Matt on to unpack it all. And of course, we'll talk about the Oscars. Not the outfits, but the business. Our expert question comes from Richard Plepler, the founder and CEO of Eden Productions and the former CEO of HBO, another person who knows a thing or two about Hollywood. So stick around.
1:49 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has. Across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness and more. And The Guardian, not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.
2:33 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at Odoo.com/kara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Kara.
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3:58 Kara Swisher? Matt, thanks for coming on, on again. I'm so thrilled to have you.
4:02 Speaker 02 Thanks for having me.
4:03 Kara Swisher? There's so much going on. I don't quite know where to start, but I-
4:05 Speaker 02 Why have you never been to the Oscars?
4:08 Kara Swisher? Because I can't, I hate that shit. I've been to the Vanity Fair Oscar Party.
4:11 Speaker 02 Okay, but you should come to the Oscars at least once, just to see it.
4:15 Kara Swisher? No, I see them at the, I saw them at the old Vanity Fair Oscar Party, which when it was at the Sambas- No, no, it was up the
4:21 Speaker 02 Sunset Tower?
4:22 Kara Swisher? Sunset Tower. That was fun. I got a good time there.
4:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, that was when that party really mattered.
4:26 Kara Swisher? That really did. I was there one year because I wrote for Vanity Fair only to go to that party. I said, this is my only reason. You don't even have to pay me. And the first year I went, all the tech people were invited because they were suddenly hot, but not that hot, right? And I just got stuck there with all the tech people kept trying to talk to me because they didn't know anybody. And I'm like, can you get the fuck away from me and so I can meet some celebrities?
4:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, then they moved it to a bigger venue so they can invite all the Procter and Gamble brand managers and LVMH ad buyers that kind of ruined the party, although they say they're cutting the guest list by half this year.
5:01 Kara Swisher? Well, it was okay. I mean, one, Elon Musk asked me to fix him up with people and I said, absolutely not.
5:07 Speaker 02 Did he have his real hair then or was it?
5:08 Kara Swisher? Well, I don't know what was happening. He looked okay. He's one of the better looking techies. Anyway, I don't want to go to the Oscars. Anyway, let's talk about you. We're here to talk about you and what's going on. You're a must read, must listen to reporter and you're the guy who plays himself on Seth Rogen's Apple series, The Studio. Oddly enough, I played myself on Silicon Valley, so it's kind of funny.
5:26 Speaker 02 It's weird, isn't it?
5:27 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah, we're the, like, I was the go to on tech and you were absolutely the go to on Hollywood. So you described yourself as the guy with a megaphone on the Titanic, which made me laugh. Explain a little bit about how you look at yourself and your competition.
5:41 Speaker 02 Honestly, I don't think about that. All I do is try to differentiate. That's what you're doing in media in general and particularly in subscription media. When I launched my newsletter, I was like, okay, so I came from that world. I came from The Hollywood Reporter where I worked for 14 years. I was the editor in chief there. And I kind of know what the trade media does well and what they don't do very well.
6:08 Kara Swisher? Right.
6:09 Speaker 02 So I was like, all right, I'm just going to do what they don't do very well. The trades don't have a voice. They don't have opinions. They don't have perspective.
6:19 Kara Swisher? What more they do, but yes, you're right. They just type press releases. That was.
6:22 Speaker 02 There's a lot, there's more than that, but.
6:24 Kara Swisher? I agree. I agree. I'm sorry. That was unfair.
6:26 Speaker 02 It's a lot of approved news where you're working with relationships and. You get, you know, it's a lot of handouts and things like that, which is fine. Like no shame. I did that for a long time. But I knew that when I was just doing this on my own, I could ignore big stories. If I didn't feel like I had anything to add to it.
6:45 Kara Swisher? Right.
6:45 Speaker 02 So I figured, all right, I'm going to either tell readers something that they don't already know and that they probably won't get from the other media outlets.
6:53 Kara Swisher? Right.
6:54 Speaker 02 Or I'm going to have a perspective and an insight and an analysis that I feel from my 20 something years covering this business that I can offer that others cannot.
7:04 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
7:04 Speaker 02 And the goal is really to reflect what people are actually talking about. And if you can do that in a way that relates to people and is accessible and doesn't feel like you're like it's homework. I feel like that's a real way to get an audience.
7:19 Kara Swisher? With insights, right. And you're not beholden to them necessarily. They're sort of, I mean, I tried to get myself in a position in tech where they're beholden to me. You know what I mean? Or else they, if they ignored me, it didn't matter. Like Yahoo did that to their detriment. So did Uber. But you want to, you want to have sourcing. And yet you get more sourcing if you're tougher from my perspective. I don't know how you feel about that.
7:41 Speaker 02 I agree, and you become undeniable. Like that's the whole goal. I hate that word in Hollywood because everyone uses it. It's got to be undeniable. But it really has to be when you're an independent media outlet and there isn't a hundred year old relationship between your outlet and the companies that you cover, which is what the trade outlets are. You really have to make, to insert yourself into the narrative and keep yourself there. And you do that by telling people stuff they don't know and by surprising and sometimes even entertaining. People, I do stuff that's just supposed to be fun.
8:12 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
8:12 Speaker 02 You're in a battle when you are in independent media. You are always in a battle for opens. What is going to cause someone to open what you send them and not open it? And I, that's the stat I look at more than anything, more than clicks. So we don't care about clicks at Puck. We don't care about even, you know, the, the traditional metrics. Like I don't care about revenue. I don't care about that.
8:36 Kara Swisher? You should.
8:37 Speaker 02 I should care about revenue, but
8:38 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
8:38 Speaker 02 I care about open rates. If my open rates stay where they are and they've stayed really consistent.
8:43 Kara Swisher? What are they?
8:44 Speaker 02 Usually between 70 and 80%.
8:46 Kara Swisher? That's very good. When you said megaphone and the Titanic, though, are the others in trouble? Do you feel like, and are you yourself?
8:53 Speaker 02 That was in reference to Hollywood, not other media outlets.
8:56 Kara Swisher? Right, I see, okay.
8:57 Speaker 02 The Titanic in that metaphor, and honestly, the second I said it, I said, oh my God, that's going to be the headline. And lo and behold.
9:04 Kara Swisher? Yeah, there it was. But is it a Titanic or is it just a resetting?
9:09 Speaker 02 I think it's both. I think for many of these legacy companies, this is a Titanic-esque moment. Because they are, they are so tethered to a model that is disappearing. The linear television model, the cable television, the.
9:23 Kara Swisher? The expensive model.
9:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, the people will pay for content they don't actually consume model. That is going away and it's been going away off and on now for 15 years. But it's really reached mission critical where these companies are being dragged down and forced to consolidate. Because they are tied to a model that isn't working.
9:44 Kara Swisher? Which they knew about.
9:46 Speaker 02 Because the model was so lucrative and the margins were so high. None of the executives were willing to blow up their own model to compete for the next generation of subscribers. And it shows. They got their lunch eaten by the tech companies. And now what we've seen over the past five to seven years is this gradual, gradual, and then all at once takeover by the disruptors.
10:11 Kara Swisher? So let's then start talking about that, talking about Warner Mount or Para.
10:15 Speaker 02 I prefer Warner Mount. There's Para Bros, but I don't like that. That, that, that sounds.
10:20 Kara Swisher? Para Bros works better.
10:21 Speaker 02 You like Para Bros?
10:22 Kara Swisher? I'll go with Warner Mount for you. You've been predicting the Ellison's as a winner since we and I have gone back and forth the auction. Even after Netflix closed on the $83 billion deal for the studio and streamer back in December. Talk a little bit about it. I thought it would take a lot longer. I thought they wasted enormous amounts of time by not just upping the bid, getting in there and winning it with the money. Because I did, I'm fully aware that the biggest price wins period in all these deals.
10:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think the Ellison's were a little arrogant at the beginning. And they thought that they could come in and swipe this asset for not very much money. They did not anticipate Netflix being interested or coming in as aggressively as they did. And listen, if you know Larry, I know David, that's the reason from the very beginning, I said, these guys are not going away. This is something that David has said to his father, I want to do this for 40 years. This is going to be my life, just like the tech industry was your life. So please let me do this and let's do this together. And when you have that kind of buy in from someone who is so wealthy.
11:25 Kara Swisher? Right.
11:25 Speaker 02 They just were never, they were Larry, they were never going to go away. They were going to push and push and push.
11:30 Kara Swisher? The only thing I thought was Larry's, look, I know David to have interviewed him. Larry is brilliant. I wouldn't say the same about David. You can, we could, you can push against me, but he, Larry is brilliant in the area he was brilliant in. And I thought he just can't even think this is a good deal. Like he's just, he's been so incredibly savvy about paying the right price for things and never overpaying and cutting and, you know, just one of these sort of rapacious tech executives from the earlier days before the internet and he was able to switch and shift really drastically. So I was surprised, it felt a little indulgent on, for him. And I suppose, what's the reason?
12:05 Speaker 02 Listen, he has one adult son and his one adult son has devoted his life to this. And he's 80, what, 81 years old, 82?
12:15 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
12:15 Speaker 02 And.
12:16 Kara Swisher? He's going to live forever.
12:17 Speaker 02 But if he doesn't, this money is going to David anyways.
12:21 Kara Swisher? Right.
12:21 Speaker 02 And his sister, Megan and others. But I, I think that, that once David said, I want to do this. It was a matter of figuring out the contours of the deal. And keep in mind that this is not all Larry's money. They're bringing in the Saudis, they're bringing in the Qataris.
12:40 Kara Swisher? They're bringing the Chinese now.
12:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, they're leveraging this company with almost $80 billion of debt. And he's saying to David, essentially, you need to make this work.
12:50 Kara Swisher? Right.
12:50 Speaker 02 But the whole deal happened because Larry finally agreed to backstop it. I mean, that was one of the big defections.
12:56 Kara Swisher? He was slow to, he was slow to, and I think it's because his nature. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I can hear him thinking that. I've spent a lot of time with him. And it wasn't smart, but he wanted to indulge his son. It felt like that to me.
13:08 Speaker 02 And he thought he didn't have to. He thought they could get away with it. And the Warner board, looking at this, said, wait a second. What, we have Netflix, who's, who's, you know, going crazy with profits and EBITDA every year. Why wouldn't we go with the safe buyer over this if you're not even going to backstop it?
13:23 Kara Swisher? Right, exactly. So regardless who bought it, you know that there is no good outcome for Hollywood. Either way, we're likely to see massive layoffs. This is something I said, I'm like, this is not, they have not do $6 billion. It's more like 16 billion.
13:35 Speaker 02 Well, that's what Ted Sarandos says at Netflix.
13:36 Kara Swisher? Yeah, he is correct. I mean, it's somewhere between six and 16, but it's definitely not six. And it could be even more, you know? Talk about what's at stakes here, not only for the executives involved, but for the people who actually create films and television. I, I'm like, this is look, I keep saying, look out below if they get it. Stop, stop attacking Netflix quite so much because it would have been a very different party.
13:58 Speaker 02 Yeah, at least that's what Netflix said when they were bidding. I, I think, I think you're right, though. I think that the, the coming together of two legacy studios with everything that they are carrying right now. From all, you know, everything from creative executives down to the janitorial staff. All of that will be merged.
14:18 Kara Swisher? It's 47,000 people, I believe, 17 from Paramount, 30,000 from Warner.
14:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, I've seen 35 at Warner, but I'm sure that somewhere in that ballpark. It's a lot. And even if you take out 20 to 30% of those employees.
14:31 Kara Swisher? Financial.
14:32 Speaker 02 That is tens of thousands of people.
14:34 Kara Swisher? Right.
14:35 Speaker 02 These are middle-class jobs. These are creative class jobs. This is devastating for these people, for the companies, for the city of LA, where most of these people work, for the city of New York, where CNN is. Or in Atlanta, where CNN also has a big presence. So from a macro perspective, it is just a shrinking of the traditional entertainment business.
14:55 Kara Swisher? Right, and so what they say they can deleverage it fast. Nobody believes them because none of these, I have, one of my, I wrote a whole book on the all-time Warner merger. They were not able to do and realize these gains. And I remember when they got Paramount and they had their first press conference, I don't know if you were there. And they kept saying, and David in particular was like, use AI and do things. And I'm like, okay.
15:15 Speaker 02 They have this like magic oracle dust that they're gonna sprinkle over the whole company.
15:20 Kara Swisher? I'm sorry. And I was like, okay, but specifically. And they're like, AI. And I was like, specifically? Like, can you give me one fucking specific? And they never could. And I just think, I was like, well, isn't your dad in tech?
15:32 Speaker 02 They keep leaning on the fact that they hired a product guy from Meta.
15:36 Kara Swisher? Oh, that always works.
15:37 Speaker 02 And they say, and Jerry Cardinal, who's the, the Redbird dealmaker.
15:41 Kara Swisher? I heard him.
15:42 Speaker 02 He was on the town and he said that they are gonna be the first time that a studio and a Silicon Valley powerhouse are coming together.
15:49 Kara Swisher? Stop it.
15:49 Speaker 02 And I said, really? I think Netflix would like a word about that, but whatever.
15:53 Kara Swisher? There were lots of efforts in this area, by the way.
15:55 Speaker 02 You know what? Let's just say they can't. Let's say that they can use a little bit of Larry's prowess in this area and create a best in class platform. Create a recommendation engine that is way better than what they currently have, can eliminate duplicative jobs. That's still.
16:12 Kara Swisher? It's table stakes. That's already where Netflix was. Yeah.
16:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, because make, remember what happened when Warner Brothers and Discovery came together. David Zasloff made very similar predictions about how they were gonna be able to achieve synergies. And the content is gonna take us to the moon on subscribers.
16:29 Kara Swisher? AOL Time Warner. It's been going on forever, this nonsense.
16:32 Speaker 02 But the even, from the very beginning of Warner Brothers Discovery, the prediction they made on the revenue and profit did not come to roost. Because, like we said, the linear TV business is cratering faster. Now, Ellison says that they're very aware of that now. And they know what the decay rate is in television. They've modeled that in conservatively. Maybe that's the case, but maybe it's worse than they think. And they're gonna have to cut even more. And what does that do when you're, when you're saying that they're gonna release 30 movies a year in theaters? And they're gonna increase the investment for their streaming properties. That all costs a lot of money. While at the same time, taking out six to 16 billion dollars from the company.
17:15 Kara Swisher? I'm more interested in what are they gonna make that's gonna make that money? Like, cutting costs is one thing, but. When Zasloff came in, he's like, we're gonna make this, this and this. I'm like, really? I don't believe you. Like, you can't cut your way to growth. Like, and I was like, what, again, specifically are you gonna make that's suddenly gonna, what are you gonna do Bitcoin? Oh, that's a might not work. Like, what's your plan? And I don't, I don't hear fresh ideas. I hear a lot of old retread ideas that I heard when I wrote my all time Warner book. I don't hear a lot of, like, how can you save money? I just, I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. But so after David Ellison struck the deal to buy Warner Brothers Discovery with his father's money, Zasloff called the process thrilling and exciting. He's laughing, of course, all the way to the bank. And Kim Masters had a great piece in your column today that I thought was terrific. And it's
18:00 Kara Swisher? something I knew about, but not everyone did, showing how the resume is pretty thin because David leading this. Talk a little bit about the relationship between Zasloff and David Ellison, the two person that is behind what will be truly massive layoffs. I don't, I guess Zasloff will ride off in the sunset with his pile, his pile of cash.
18:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, he is set to make $800 million off of this deal.
18:21 Kara Swisher? Yeah, it's like this, remember the Starbelly snitch, the snitches, like the guy who came? He's that guy.
18:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, it is a grotesque.
18:28 Kara Swisher? Monkey McBean or something, yeah.
18:30 Speaker 02 It is a grotesque amount of money for someone who is not a founder. He is a media manager that came to this company, saw that Discovery Communications was floundering in the linear TV era. He bolted his company on to HBO and Warner Brothers under the theory that if they could create a streaming powerhouse, it might take them to the promised land. It didn't work.
18:52 Kara Swisher? I had drinks with him, heard that one.
18:54 Speaker 02 Well, listen, more power to him because he, he created this scenario where all of a sudden, the fourth richest man in the world's son wanted to buy the company, lucked out like nobody's business, and now he's gonna, he's gonna reap the rewards. So the shareholders are the big winners here.
19:09 Kara Swisher? They are, they are, because it was at seven and then it sold at 31. And, which was incredible. And I was like, did, was there $22 of that, or whatever, the $24 of value in there? Like, there wasn't, like, nothing got created. In fact, things got cut.
19:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's just the perception when Netflix wanted this and the Ellison Wanted it, the, the, the bidding was off. The Ellison's were only prepared to pay $19 a share.
19:35 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
19:35 Speaker 02 They made their first bid.
19:37 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
19:37 Speaker 02 So, and that was for all the companies. So it's just, it's a very fortuitous situation for Zasla. But now he's in this position where they had a town hall on the lot today in Burbank, where they're talking about integrating these companies and kind of dancing around the layoff issue. And they have to figure out what they are going to do with each of these assets. Like Ellison is saying HBO should stay HBO, be the premium brand. But he doesn't address the fact that HBO has actually broadened out pretty significantly over the past three years to try to be something other than just HBO. The HBO Max brand, they're doing things like The Pit, which was not perceived as like a traditional HBO show.
20:21 Kara Swisher? Or buying heated rivalry. Yeah.
20:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, but that's a little bit, that's at least racy.
20:25 Kara Swisher? That was a smart buy.
20:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was a smart buy, but, but that's at least more traditional HBO show. My point is they're doing more broadly commercial shows at HBO.
20:34 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
20:35 Speaker 02 And that is overlapping now with what Paramount is doing. And they have a whole apparatus there designed to increase the amount of content on Paramount Plus. They're going to merge these two together, but how are they going to merge it?
20:47 Kara Swisher? Cause they're very different brands. One is a luxury brand, the other is kind of like.
20:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:51 Kara Swisher? Yellowstone.
20:52 Speaker 02 The good part is they're complementary.
20:54 Kara Swisher? Yes, they are.
20:55 Speaker 02 That one is, one is broadcast style, CBS style content. In fact, the CBS shows live on Paramount Plus. And then the other is premium. And do you lean into the HBO brand? Do you lean into the CBS brand? There's going to be some very interesting decisions made there.
21:11 Kara Swisher? How does it go together?
21:12 Speaker 02 And then you have two movie studios. I mean Paramount has been so weakened as a movie studio over the past two decades because of the mismanagement of the Summoner Redstone people. So, but they have no franchises, not no franchises. They have some, but they do not have the treasure trove of superheroes.
21:31 Kara Swisher? Which is why they needed Warner, right?
21:33 Speaker 02 Exactly.
21:33 Kara Swisher? It was existential situation for this company.
21:36 Speaker 02 They have Harry Potter, they have Lord of the Rings, they have Doom.
21:40 Kara Swisher? Game of Thrones.
21:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, Game of Thrones. They have all these franchises and how are they going to integrate these two studios to best take advantage of that?
21:48 Kara Swisher? Stack ranked the assets for me really quickly. Like the studios are on top, right? Presumably?
21:54 Speaker 02 Yes, but not for the reason you think. They're not on top because of any output that they are doing this year. I mean, Zaslav loves to talk about how Warner Brothers had a great year in 2025, and he's turned around the studio, and that's why they were so attractive. But that's not the reason.
22:09 Kara Swisher? Hello Bride of Frankenstein, but go ahead.
22:11 Speaker 02 They are, I know, the bride. That's the thing, he's not talking about the bride. And in the grand scheme of things, the bride doesn't matter either. What matters is this is a 100-year-old studio with 100 years of movies and franchises that can be exploited across all platforms. That is where these studios really have value.
22:34 Kara Swisher? The IP.
22:35 Speaker 02 And that's what Netflix wanted. They saw that and they're like, oh, my God. You know, if you look at Netflix on a random Tuesday night, half the movies, at least in their top 10, are movies that they have licensed from another studio.
22:47 Kara Swisher? That's right.
22:48 Speaker 02 Because they are known properties that perform on all platforms.
22:52 Kara Swisher? Right. And it's something people want. And then, so the studios, what goes next?
22:55 Speaker 02 HBO. I mean, HBO is a global brand. It has a track record. It means something. I mean, all of these, these linear businesses, they're trying to transition over to streaming. HBO has done it. They have a streamer with, you know, I think it's at about 130, 140 million subscribers now.
23:16 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
23:17 Speaker 02 And they have, they have successfully grown this to be one of the streamers that matters. So now they're combining it with another streamer that is sort of matters.
23:28 Kara Swisher? Yeah, kind of.
23:30 Speaker 02 Yeah. And if they can put those together and create a legitimate Netflix and Disney competitor, maybe the Ellison's will have one of the three, maybe four services that survive this era of turmoil. That is the goal.
23:45 Kara Swisher? All right. Anything else that's worthwhile? News. Let's talk about the news and the network. Because there's, there's the broadcast network, and then there's the news division. So what's going to happen with CNN? Because that was going to be spun off, which I thought was the smartest. Obviously CBS gets written about a lot. I think it matters much less than people go on and on about.
24:04 Speaker 02 Oh, see, I disagree. I think CBS.
24:06 Kara Swisher? Tell me why CBS Broadcast or CBS News?
24:09 Speaker 02 CBS Broadcast.
24:10 Kara Swisher? I'm talking about the news.
24:11 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, yeah. News doesn't, news, to be honest, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The CNN carriage fees do matter.
24:18 Kara Swisher? Yes.
24:19 Speaker 02 They are still throwing off a lot of profit.
24:20 Kara Swisher? They are.
24:21 Speaker 02 And that is a, that is one of the few handful of networks that you can't cancel. A cable provider is not going to drop CNN for a number of reasons, but mostly for the five times during the year when people actually care and want to watch CNN. So CBS, though, is a real asset. Like, broadcast ratings are still a thing. If you look at the, the live plus 35 rankings, which is, you know, the night it airs plus 35 days, even when you include Netflix, Amazon, and other streaming shows, CBS has a big chunk of the most watched shows still.
24:58 Kara Swisher? This is broadcast entertainment evening.
25:01 Speaker 02 This is anything. This is including Stranger Things.
25:04 Kara Swisher? Right.
25:04 Speaker 02 CBS will still, now, the audience is geriatric.
25:08 Kara Swisher? They are.
25:08 Speaker 02 And getting older, but CBS has football. It has now UFC. It has golf. It has marquee sports products and it has broadcast shows. So, and, and, and as we've seen, the audience has abandoned cable. They haven't abandoned the broadcast networks as much as, as some have thought they might.
25:30 Kara Swisher? Plus they can get some on streaming and it also has another life on streaming.
25:34 Speaker 02 Exactly. So, so for now at least, CBS is, is a very important asset. Not in 20 years, but as long as it can carry live sports, it is going to be an important asset.
25:45 Kara Swisher? So, sports is key there. News is not at all.
25:47 Speaker 02 Not, not to CBS. I mean, that's why I think many people believe that CBS News and CNN will be combined.
25:55 Kara Swisher? Absolutely.
25:55 Speaker 02 CNN will likely end up programming the news portion of CBS.
26:02 Speaker 02 And there'll be one news organization across both, which is not dissimilar to what happened at NBC.
26:08 Kara Swisher? Right, but then they split it up.
26:09 Speaker 02 Where MSNBC and NBC Broadcast were powered by NBC News. Now, there was a lot on MSNBC that didn't work on NBC because it was more advocacy journalism. But they at least had one NBC News. Now, of course, they're split up and they're having to figure that out. But I think what we'll see is one, and I don't know if it'll be branded CBS News or be branded CNN, probably CNN, because that's the news brand.
26:36 Kara Swisher? Sure, and it's global.
26:37 Speaker 02 And you'll end up seeing CNN programming the evening news on CBS.
26:43 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
26:43 Speaker 02 And programming the morning show.
26:45 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
26:45 Speaker 02 And all the news breaks and election coverage, all of that will come from CNN. And you'll be able to take the employee count of CNN, which is about 3,000 people now, maybe cut that in half and maybe cut in half the CBS News staff and then just do one combined product.
27:02 Kara Swisher? Do you think, well, the nightly news doesn't matter anymore?
27:05 Speaker 02 It's not, well, I don't know. I mean, CBS is third place, but if you look at the ratings, there is still an audience for that evening news.
27:13 Kara Swisher? But if you go to 25 to 34, I hate to tell you, pivot is bigger. Like, I'm sorry.
27:18 Speaker 02 Oh, but, but.
27:19 Kara Swisher? By a lot.
27:20 Speaker 02 They're not going to 25 to 54.
27:21 Kara Swisher? Right, that's right, they're going to old people.
27:23 Speaker 02 They're going to, they've long since abandoned that. And if you look at the ads on those shows, it's all pharma and heating pads and things like that.
27:31 Kara Swisher? Shower and Sky Rizzi.
27:34 Kara Swisher? So, but they're worried about sort of the Trumpy politics that the Ellison's employed to get this deal through and.
27:39 Speaker 02 That's not going away.
27:40 Kara Swisher? No, no. Although David, for people that don't know, was quite a Democrat for a while, right?
27:45 Speaker 02 I think he probably still is. Honestly, I just don't, I don't think he is particularly ideological.
27:52 Kara Swisher? No, I would agree with you.
27:53 Speaker 02 And my dealings with him, he's not doing this because he has some internal desire to change the world politically. This is not a Murdoch.
28:01 Kara Swisher? His father is much more political.
28:02 Speaker 02 Exactly.
28:03 Kara Swisher? Especially around Israel, of course.
28:04 Speaker 02 Yes. And David cares very much about Israel as well.
28:07 Kara Swisher? He does.
28:08 Speaker 02 But I think that he's just being opportunistic here. He sees that they have a window and he sees that his father has a relationship with Trump. And they've got two and a half years to, you know, do whatever they want. And there will, there will likely be very little pushback from the Trumps. And I just feel like that's, it's more of a business thing for him. And he does see an opportunity, I think. I mean, if you look at the news landscape, there is one right-leaning news powerhouse in television. And then there are about seven or eight that at least lean a little bit left center or left. And what I think Ellison is trying to do, and I think he's trying to compete more overtly with Fox.
28:53 Kara Swisher? Right.
28:53 Speaker 02 And they will continue to do that.
28:55 Kara Swisher? I think he's going to get his head handed to him by the, the Fox people are as clever as can be. I can't stand it, but.
29:00 Speaker 02 They are, and, and, and people think Fox is successful because it's conservative. That's not why.
29:06 Kara Swisher? No.
29:06 Speaker 02 They have a formula.
29:07 Kara Swisher? Yes.
29:08 Speaker 02 They have the vibrant screen, as Roger Eels called it. They have, they have personalities. They know the audience. They constantly refer to the audience, the audience, the audience. They know their consumer and they, they hit it hard all the time.
29:22 Kara Swisher? Yeah, I just don't think they know media. I just, media, news, I just don't, I think they're not very good at it. It doesn't get matters that much to them. But you know, if it gets their deal through, that's, I think, was the, was the point. We'll be back in a minute.
29:42 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will. Use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs,
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33:05 Kara Swisher? So every episode, we ask an expert to send our guest a question. Let's hear yours.
33:10 Speaker 03 Hi, I'm Richard Klepler, former chairman and CEO of HBO. Currently, I have a production deal at Apple. My question from that is, if you were, let's say hypothetically, offered $150 million from your partnership at Puck and asked to be president of the new Warner Paramount venture, what would be the first two strategic moves that you would make at the company when you came there?
33:39 Speaker 02 Hmm. Interesting question. Well, if I got $150 million, I'd probably buy, I'd probably buy David Geffen's yacht first and then go sailing for a few years. But, um, okay. So first, I would combine the two streaming services under the HBO Max name. I really hope Paramount doesn't go with the Paramount side of this because that brand doesn't mean anything. That is a streaming brand that has not achieved cultural significance in the world. Now, obviously HBO is great for people like you and me, but it's also not great for others who may say, oh, that those shows are not for me. But I think that's
34:20 Speaker 02 why you keep the Max name on there. It's just a little signal that this is more than just HBO. And all of those television brands are tiles.
34:32 Speaker 02 On HBO Max.
34:33 Kara Swisher? Correct. Like a Disney's do it.
34:34 Speaker 02 Like what Disney does and Disney, I think that's worked. I think that the branding is working and it's about to get even bigger because they're going to get rid of Hulu and put it under the Disney plus moniker. So that I think, I think, and they haven't decided whether they're doing that yet. I think they should, they should have it all under HBO Max.
34:54 Kara Swisher? Okay. So that's one.
34:56 Speaker 02 That's one. Second, and this is something that they are thinking about through my reporting. I think that they should lean into experiential on the movie lots. They will now have two of the legacy movie lots.
35:11 Kara Swisher? Movie lots.
35:12 Speaker 02 They're beautiful properties. They are ones in Hollywood, ones in Burbank. And at least on one of them, they should try to reimagine what the studio lot theme park looks like.
35:24 Kara Swisher? I love that idea.
35:25 Speaker 02 It should not be what Universal is, no roller coasters.
35:28 Kara Swisher? No.
35:29 Speaker 02 No, none of that. It should be more like what Netflix is doing with their Netflix houses. Where it's, it's a rotating thing where you go in there and maybe for six months, it's a Godfather experience based on the Godfather movies. And you can interact with the movies. You can place yourself in the movie. Then maybe there's something, there's a game or something based on, you know, there's something about Mary.
35:54 Kara Swisher? Yeah. I went in and sat on the Friends couch and then looked at the Warner, the costume lot. There is a tour, a special tour of Warner that is wonderful. Let me just say, and it's really fun.
36:03 Speaker 02 Imagine that's supersized.
36:05 Kara Swisher? I would love that.
36:06 Speaker 02 Imagine if you had experiences and then you could, maybe you could meet somebody or I some, you know, something where you're reimagining it and you turn those lots into working offices, which is, which they currently are. And it would, it would help to alleviate some of the pain of the production going to other locations.
36:27 Kara Swisher? Right.
36:28 Speaker 02 Because a lot of those studio lots are not used anymore.
36:30 Kara Swisher? No, they're not. That could be really fun. That would be, and it could make some money and people would go, I would go.
36:35 Speaker 02 It's how Universal started.
36:36 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
36:36 Speaker 02 They literally started with a tram tour and say, let's bring people in and let them see how we work. And then now. This business is is a real profit driver.
36:45 Kara Swisher? Which one had the flood? That was that Universal or was it Warner? They have a flood.
36:49 Speaker 02 Universal does the flood.
36:50 Kara Swisher? That was really fun with the Jaws, the Jaws thing.
36:53 Speaker 02 They have the Jaws shark, then you go in, they have a Fast and Furious roller coaster about to open.
36:58 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
36:58 Speaker 02 Yeah. I mean, those are now driving, those are driving the profits at Universal and Disney.
37:04 Kara Swisher? Yep. That's a great idea. I hope that that's something they should focus on. I agree with you. So talk about the Netflix of it all. The stock rebounded, obviously, after they pulled out of the auction. You've said this is personally embarrassing for CEO Ted Sarandos, who made nice with Trump, sort of, while he was trying to get the deal through. He wasn't that bad. I mean, they're all bad, but on the stack ranking.
37:22 Speaker 02 Oh, I don't think it's that embarrassing. Did I say it was embarrassing?
37:24 Kara Swisher? Yeah, you did, but I don't think it is at all. I was surprised when I heard that.
37:27 Speaker 02 I think it's a little embarrassing, but not, but nothing, nothing damaging to Ted. Like, he'll move on.
37:32 Kara Swisher? Right. And you point out the company is getting this $2.8 billion. They still rock. I'm sorry, they're still really smart about how they program.
37:40 Speaker 02 They do, but I don't think they're done here. I don't think they're, I don't think they're just gonna say, you know what? We tried. Let's go back to our core business of streaming and let's not try to be a fully diversified media conglomerate like some of these other companies. I think that if Sony is available in the near future, they will go after Sony Pictures.
37:58 Kara Swisher? Interesting.
37:59 Speaker 02 And try to buy that because it's the next best thing to Warner Brothers if amongst studios that might be available. It's got a pretty big library. It's got a great TV production business. And importantly, there would be fewer antitrust concerns, I think.
38:15 Kara Swisher? Right.
38:15 Speaker 02 Because they wouldn't be dominating the streaming market like they would have if they had bought HBO.
38:20 Kara Swisher? Right. That's interesting. So Sony?
38:22 Speaker 02 Sony, I think that there are other companies.
38:24 Kara Swisher? Scott has talked about a Disney hookup. We're gonna get to Disney in a second.
38:27 Speaker 02 Scott thinks that Netflix and Disney are gonna merge?
38:29 Kara Swisher? They, he wants them to, I think, more than any. I was like, you cannot get that one through.
38:34 Speaker 02 No, no, no, no, no.
38:35 Kara Swisher? Under any circumstances.
38:37 Speaker 02 I believe the Apple thing more than I believe the Netflix thing.
38:40 Kara Swisher? Oh, interesting. Apple and Disney, yeah.
38:41 Speaker 02 Because Apple at least, that would take Apple in a different direction.
38:46 Kara Swisher? Sure.
38:46 Speaker 02 I think, I don't, I just don't see Netflix wanting to deal.
38:50 Kara Swisher? Sony is a great idea. AMC. They can hook up a lot of content, right?
38:54 Speaker 02 They could. I mean, Lionsgate is for sale. I don't think that Netflix is gonna buy Lionsgate. I know their stock popped. AMC, I assume you mean the networks, not the theaters?
39:05 Kara Swisher? Yes, no, not the theaters.
39:06 Speaker 02 Maybe, but I don't, but again, like-
39:08 Kara Swisher? Let me be clear, Ted Sarandos does not like theaters.
39:10 Speaker 02 He does not.
39:11 Kara Swisher? He does not. He said it to me on stage publicly. I, I know he doesn't. He likes them okay.
39:17 Speaker 02 He says he personally likes going to the theater, but it's not our model.
39:21 Kara Swisher? I think he correctly, since it's like, let consumers do what they want. If they don't like them and they are showing they don't like them by not going, except sometimes, let consumer, he's, he's a let consumers decide, and I think he's right.
39:31 Speaker 02 Well, unless he's trying to buy a theatrical movie studio, and then all of a sudden for two months he changed his tune and said,
39:37 Kara Swisher? Yes, I know.
39:38 Speaker 02 We weren't in that business and now we're gonna be in this business and we're gonna honor it.
39:41 Kara Swisher? That was, that was the most painful part. That was, but he didn't give up Susan Rice, so let's give him that. So you think they'll be fine? They'll be?
39:48 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. I'm not worried about Netflix.
39:49 Kara Swisher? They kind of won by losing, right?
39:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, they got paid off. They slowed their competitor down. They caused a very deep-pocketed competitor to pay a lot more money than they would have.
40:01 Kara Swisher? Center of shitty action, lot of controversial layoffs, crazy news people, like everything, right?
40:08 Speaker 02 And if this, if this all goes as it, as every other media merger has gone over the past 50 years, these assets could be available in four or five years.
40:18 Kara Swisher? That's correct.
40:18 Speaker 02 Where Netflix could then swoop in and get it potentially for a lot cheaper.
40:22 Kara Swisher? Or get the pieces they want. And, you know, to me, Warner is the hope diamond. Like, anyone who gets it dies. Is Zaslo gonna be allowed to go anywhere in Hollywood now after he's sort of done this? I mean, from a shareholder point of view, nice job, Dave. From a Hollywood studio point of view, boy, I'd be pissed off.
40:40 Speaker 02 I, I don't think talent is going to be lining up to go to his dinner parties like they have been the last couple of years when he's invited them over to Bob Evans' house. You know, he lives in Bob Evans' house.
40:50 Kara Swisher? No, I know, I know. I'm aware.
40:52 Speaker 02 I think he will end up selling that house.
40:54 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
40:55 Speaker 02 Because-
40:55 Kara Swisher? That was a thirsty move, wasn't it?
40:57 Speaker 02 He will be more comfortable in New York and the Hamptons.
41:00 Kara Swisher? He should go to New York and the Hamptons and put on his, you know, comfortable sneakers.
41:04 Speaker 02 And he can go to lunch with Barry Diller and David Geffen, and they will all high five him.
41:09 Kara Swisher? Laugh their ass off, because Geffen invested. He made some money.
41:12 Speaker 02 He made hundreds of millions of dollars.
41:14 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the rich get richer. Anyway, you're right. That's what he should do.
41:17 Speaker 02 Let's, let's count how many times he is thanked at the Oscars.
41:20 Kara Swisher? Oh yeah, that's true. It's not going to be like-
41:22 Speaker 02 It's going to be the Mike and Pam show. Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi will get thanked over and over again. Although I've been saying this for a week now, and I think because I've been saying that, they have been telegraphing to the talent to make sure to thank him. So I may have, I may have spoiled my own theory here.
41:38 Kara Swisher? Oh, you should have kept it to yourself. All right.
41:40 Speaker 02 I know.
41:40 Kara Swisher? So let's get to Disney really quick. A big story coming up, this succession story. Josh Demaro, the current chairman of Disney Experiences, takes over, speaking of experiences, takes over as CEO on March 18th. You've written, quote, "Disney's honeymoon period obscures a bunch of under-discussed challenges across the company, but especially in the content realm." You're absolutely right, where Demaro is the least experienced and potentially conflicts are already brewing. What are the big challenges for Demaro and the legacy of Bob Iger?
42:05 Speaker 02 I think for Disney, the real challenge is to shore up the streaming future and create, and really have a powerhouse, growing and profitable streaming service. Because Disney Plus is not growing, not nearly as fast as some of the others.
42:22 Kara Swisher? It is.
42:22 Speaker 02 They have pulled back the investment there because they were so concerned about profitability after the spending spree during COVID. And they, they really have to figure out what their strategy is. Do they even want to be a general interest streaming service? That's a, that's a legitimate question. The Disney brand and what Disney stands for, and what a lot of people subscribe to Disney Plus for-
42:48 Kara Swisher? Kids programming.
42:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's not the stuff that is pumped out on Hulu. It's not the Ryan Murphy stuff. It's not, you know, and does Disney even want that? I could see Demaro looking at this and saying, well, okay, let's spin off these linear networks, FX and Freeform and even ABC, and focus on what makes Disney Disney.
43:10 Kara Swisher? Disney, right, which is a very good business. There isn't anyone near them. So many tries to reach Disney. I mean, there's bits and pieces like K-pop demon hunters and et cetera, but there's not, there really, if I had to, someone was like, if you had to get rid of a streaming service, I said, two, I'd have to have Netflix and Disney. That's it. And if I had to- I like Netflix better, but if I got rid of Disney, my kids would kill me.
43:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:34 Kara Swisher? Essentially.
43:35 Speaker 02 And maybe he'll decide that that's their future and not trying to compete with Netflix and YouTube to be the everything service.
43:42 Kara Swisher? Well, what happens to ABC?
43:43 Speaker 02 That would be a big about face from the Iger strategy. He did think Disney deserved.
43:47 Kara Swisher? He did.
43:48 Speaker 02 To be up there with all, I mean, he was a television guy. He was a broadcasting guy. So ABC was his North Star and being all things to everyone, maybe not for tomorrow. I think gaming, Demaro has had the Epic Games relationship and they're developing a Disney presence in Fortnite. I could see Demaro making a big acquisition in gaming.
44:08 Kara Swisher? Oh, epic.
44:09 Speaker 02 To try to keep up with that world. Disney has had a horrible track record.
44:13 Kara Swisher? Oh, trust me, I've been there for every one of those. Oh, I can't even remember all the names.
44:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, I remember it was Club Penguin and then it was.
44:20 Kara Swisher? There was another one.
44:21 Speaker 02 There was a multi-channel group that they bought called Maker Studios.
44:25 Kara Swisher? Oh, Makers. I told them not to do that. I was like, no, no, no, that was a disaster.
44:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, it wasn't that expensive, but they did flop on that.
44:32 Kara Swisher? I know, but it was dumb. And then Jimmy Patero had to clean it up essentially.
44:35 Speaker 02 It has not been their successful area and maybe, maybe Demaro can reverse that. I think interactivity with AI, they have this OpenAI deal where they've now handed over their characters to OpenAI to create interactivity on Disney Plus.
44:51 Kara Swisher? We'll see about that.
44:52 Speaker 02 And the, the biggest challenge and something that I really hope Demaro can leverage his theme park experience to create is Disney needs to create the everything app.
45:04 Kara Swisher? Mm hmm.
45:04 Speaker 02 The app that Disney fans can feel like serve all of the things that they want out of Disney. Shows, social networking, shopping, games.
45:16 Kara Swisher? Yep.
45:17 Speaker 02 Theme park experiences. You still cannot really sync up your Disney Plus with the experiential experience that you have in a park.
45:26 Kara Swisher? I'll have to give Iger this, he tried early and often and he didn't succeed quite a lot, but he did, of the many executives I dealt with, he definitely kept making efforts. It just, it didn't work. So what is his legacy now? Of course, everyone knows in 2022. The board fires Bob Chapek, Bob Iger's handpick successor. He comes back as CEO. He was mighty bored on the ship in the South Seas. So when he was in charge, they settled this Trump lawsuit that probably could have won. Jimmy Kimmel gets suspended and then reinstated. Although I think there's a little more complexity of that over these Charlie Kirk comments. It looks like caving to Trump. Again, I have a feeling there's a more interesting story there. So to talk a little bit about this final moment for Bob Iger, because the stock is not, you know, has not done very well.
46:11 Kara Swisher? If that's the way you want to judge it, but judge it on a couple of different ways.
46:15 Speaker 02 I will judge it on a couple of ways because there's first, there's Iger one, and then there's Iger two. And Iger one, I think most people would agree that he did a fantastic job setting up the company for the digital future in the sense that he bought the IP machines that that have powered Disney to be one of those companies that we all now accept is going to survive. That was not a given when Iger took over.
46:41 Kara Swisher? No, he was, he was early, I have to say.
46:43 Speaker 02 So buying Pixar, buying Marvel, buying Lucasfilm, Fox, a little bit dicier. They bought, that was a very expensive deal and they, they got some great stuff. I, I'm still, still kind of defending the Fox deal, but a lot of people think they way overpaid and didn't get that much out of it.
46:59 Kara Swisher? Right. Hmm. Way overpaid. When did that ever happen?
47:02 Speaker 02 I know, but at least they, they had the tools to launch Disney Plus and to really compete. Iger two, when he came back, it was a much different situation. It was a triage mode for a little bit. They cut the costs, they fired a bunch of people. They stopped doing a lot of the things that were enabled under Chapek. They're just now, you know, Pixar just did a big interview where they're saying, yeah, we stopped making movies that were personal hand drawn projects from filmmakers. Now we're going back to big, broad Disney style entertainment, which should have been a given, but it wasn't for a while at Disney. So he's kind of set the company back on track in some ways.
47:44 Speaker 02 But in others, it feels like Disney is a little behind in streaming. It feels like they're not as aggressive. As some of their peers, the stock is certainly not where it should be. There's no growth narrative for Disney. And Iger has really struggled to articulate what the next 20 to 30 years of the Walt Disney Company are going to be.
48:05 Kara Swisher? Well, he might be like, I've had enough, right? Maybe I'm out of ideas like.
48:09 Speaker 02 Well, maybe, but but that's kind of the job is to get investors excited about where you're going. And we haven't really heard that.
48:18 Kara Swisher? So what will new guy do then? What is that? What is his big idea? If you were in charge, let me ask that question again. What would you do there? What's your big strategic move?
48:28 Speaker 02 I don't know that I'm prepared to dump the linear business.
48:32 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
48:32 Speaker 02 I I just don't. I think that I'm a little bit more in the Iger camp that Disney has a responsibility to at least try to be everything. Be a broadcaster for the digital age and still offer adult programming, all audience programming. In addition to the family stuff, I think that they are smart in investing $60 billion in the parks. And experiences, the cruise business is insanely profitable for them. And and a best in class product. They have what Netflix would kill for. They have the brand identity that powers their entire flywheel. And they can do that in a way that Netflix wishes it could.
49:16 Speaker 02 So they, I would lean into that and I would lean into the things that make Disney Disney.
49:22 Kara Swisher? And what about the Apple idea of them being bought by Apple?
49:25 Speaker 02 First of all, I wish that doesn't happen because I think that Disney is like the one Hollywood company that can determine its own destiny.
49:33 Kara Swisher? Possibly, yeah.
49:34 Speaker 02 If Apple buys Disney, it's pretty much over, right? There will be no Hollywood companies, Hollywood studios not owned by outside interests.
49:44 Kara Swisher? Right.
49:45 Speaker 02 If that happened. And I just don't, I mean, Apple's content aspirations are still a mystery to me. I don't, I just don't think Apple wants to be in the theme park business. Do you?
49:55 Kara Swisher? No, they don't know. I don't, I think Apple just is sort of here and they're sort of, they put out a good show or two and.
50:01 Speaker 02 It's a brand halo.
50:02 Kara Swisher? They'll do a severance, which is great, but I feel like, I guess Tim wants to go to the Oscars or.
50:07 Speaker 02 You think that's it? I think they do think there's a business there.
50:10 Kara Swisher? I think it'll help with their other things. I think just the way, same thing with Amazon. Let's move then to Amazon. We haven't mentioned them. They're a company that is also very involved in some of this stuff. And from my perspective, I think it's about something else. So you're just there to sell things. And the same thing I feel, felt with Apple. I just didn't understand why they thought. I just, they're not interested.
50:31 Speaker 02 At least Amazon is trying to turn it into a real business and is trying to get a real audience there. They have a football deal. They are doing broader, more all-audience content. They're doing movies.
50:42 Kara Swisher? They're about to come out with Project Hail Mary, which is getting killer. It's an attempt at a big blockbuster. It's getting great.
50:48 Speaker 02 And they're putting it in theaters. They're putting their movies in theaters, which everyone except Netflix argues is the best way to create a brand around a movie. Although Netflix and Apple, Apple is not putting their movies in theaters.
51:00 Kara Swisher? No, but you said, your colleague Scott Mendelson writes that the closest thing to a franchise-free, one-and-done global blockbuster that Hollywood hasn't attempted since 10 in 2020.
51:10 Speaker 02 And I think it's gonna work.
51:12 Kara Swisher? Is it Amazon's Hail Mary? Or do they need it? Does it matter?
51:15 Speaker 02 Well, Amazon doesn't need anything in Hollywood. If they shut the entire operation down tomorrow, I think they would recover pretty quickly. But on the terms that they have set for themselves, where they have said, we are going to double down on movies. Not only going to make them, we're going to make them at big budgets with big stars and put them in theaters. This is the Hail Mary year for Amazon because Courtney Valente, who runs that studio, she came from Warner Brothers. This is her slate, finally. And these movies coming out this year, they have a He-Man movie that I'm sure you're very excited about. They have, they have a.
51:49 Kara Swisher? My taste in movies is a little like David Ellison's, kind of cheap and dirty, like.
51:54 Speaker 02 Well, then you'll love the He-Man movie.
51:55 Kara Swisher? Greenland one, Greenland two, Maverick. That's my taste.
51:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, but then, but I bet you'll like Project Hail Mary, too.
52:01 Kara Swisher? I bet I will. I will. I want to see it. So, but let's go back. So you, how, where do you think Amazon fits in this?
52:07 Speaker 02 I think they're an important buyer now. They're, they're, they're a firmament of the Hollywood establishment now. They are, they are doing shows, they are doing movies, they are doing just as many, if not more, than anyone except Netflix.
52:19 Kara Swisher? Right. So stack rank those, the buyers right now, very quickly.
52:23 Speaker 02 Netflix is the biggest buyer in terms of original content.
52:27 Kara Swisher? Or where people want to go.
52:29 Speaker 02 Well, that's, that's slightly different because if you're a filmmaker, you don't want to go to Netflix because they will not give your movie a theatrical release. If you're a filmmaker, I think probably Universal is the number one studio.
52:41 Kara Swisher? Donna Langley, the elegant.
52:43 Speaker 02 She's fantastic and they can, they can take care of your movie. They have a fantastic marketing department. And the, the number, the top filmmakers, you know, this year they have a Chris Nolan movie. They have a Spielberg movie. They, they have a Jordan Peele movie coming next year. They, they, they're really cultivating these filmmakers as brands. And then Warner Brothers has really stepped up and tried to do that as well under their regime right now. They have Ryan Coogler doing, doing Sinners and, and One Battle After Another, and they have a number of other films. They have a Tom Cruise movie later this year with Alejandro Iñárritu directing.
53:17 Kara Swisher? Does that change with the Ellison's? Will people be like, oh, I'm not hanging out with these people?
53:20 Speaker 02 I don't think so. I think people are willing to separate. You know, it's like people worked for Rupert for many years.
53:26 Kara Swisher? That is true.
53:27 Speaker 02 Cameron worked for Rupert and Rupert was smart enough to, to, there was a dichotomy between the Fox News operation in New York and the studio in LA. And he, he was smart about it. He did not, um, let one contaminate the other.
53:42 Kara Swisher? Right. And it's very contaminated.
53:44 Speaker 02 And I think the Ellison's, if they are smart, they will do the same. It's just a matter of whether the, the situation at CNN and CBS blows up.
53:52 Kara Swisher? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.
53:53 Speaker 02 If it becomes something that movie stars get asked about on the red carpet, like, why are you working with this network when they're doing this? That, then it becomes uncomfortable, but ultimately people want to sell their projects.
54:04 Kara Swisher? Right. And get them out there. We'll be back in a minute.
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56:48 Kara Swisher? So let's finish by talking about this existential dread that you talked about, this megaphone on the Titanic. I mean, including legacy media and including Hollywood under the broad umbrella, it's facing a crisis at the same, you know, you have YouTube and Netflix, the most dominant forces in watching. Like my kids, YouTube is television to them, like, period. Even if you combine Disney Plus and Hulu, they're still in third. Future warmer mount would still lag behind. What is the path here for those legacy media companies? If you want to lump them, even though some of them are now owned by Amazon, owned by the Ellison's?
57:21 Speaker 02 Well, there's one to sell, which is what MGM did and what, you know, what Warner's did here. Then there's the consolidation element where you can start to try to buy up other little things and try and get more scale, which we are also seeing in the business. And then I think there is the, the, do we have enough question, which I think Disney has asked, and I think Disney has answered it with, yes, we do have enough to compete. And then what do you do? You have to really maximize your assets, lean in where you have strengths, maybe cut areas where you have weaknesses and try to stake out some kind of real estate in the streaming ecosystem. Are
58:04 Speaker 02 you going to be one of the four services?
58:07 Kara Swisher? And there can only be four, right?
58:09 Speaker 02 Well, there could, I mean, we think ultimately three or four services.
58:12 Kara Swisher? To be, you have different ones.
58:14 Speaker 02 Yeah. And or, or do you try to do something like Tubi where they're not trying to ultimately compete with Netflix? They're trying to have a business and it's a very specific business in free ad-supported TV and they're owned by Fox. So they have a provider of content and that can be a business, just like Sony has carved out a business for themselves, Sony Pictures, where they are not trying to have a platform that appeals to everyone. They sell to everyone and they've been very successful selling product. They got $7 billion out of Netflix for their pay one output deal for their library.
58:51 Kara Swisher? Make some good stuff and then take the stuff you have that's good and sell, but also make some new stuff.
58:55 Speaker 02 And they are making, and that's valuable. Netflix is the first place you will see Spider-Man after it's in theaters. Netflix is the first place you saw, you know, anyone but you, or where you'll see, you know, the Spider-verse movies because.
59:12 Speaker 02 Netflix places value on that. Sony can throw in the rest of its library.
59:17 Kara Swisher? Right.
59:17 Speaker 02 And get billions of dollars for this.
59:19 Kara Swisher? So the other existential risk, obviously, working in the background for actual workers who make films and television series, the writers, the crew members, maybe even actors, is AI, of course. Big topic. You're always asked about it. I'm always asked about it. Netflix just bought Ben Affleck's startup, InterPositive. It makes AI-powered tools for filmmakers. Seems like a good idea. Tools is a great idea.
59:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's very different than than.
59:40 Kara Swisher? I agree. I know what he's.
59:41 Speaker 02 Text prompts and things. It's basically just a tool for your dailies to help you complete the movie in a more efficient manner.
59:48 Kara Swisher? Doing a better email, you know, write this email for me, essentially.
59:51 Speaker 02 Yes. But it also gives Netflix a little bit of cover to do other stuff, which I think they are doing.
59:58 Kara Swisher? Such as, which is?
59:59 Speaker 02 Such as, you know, integrating AI into their visual effects processes or their animation processes or even, you know, their storyboarding and all these other things where humans currently do that stuff. But most of these studios believe that five to seven years from now, all of that will be automated and the cost will come down on these movies.
1:00:19 Kara Swisher? Yeah, I give the example of costumes. Why not just put a costume on Scarlett Johansson that doesn't exist? And just keep doing it. Like, why do costume fittings? Why do everything? So what is the effect on creatives of Hollywood? Is this is this contraction? How do you look at it? When I'm sure everyone asks you, what am I gonna do? And they're mostly worried about AI slop. And you just did a whole episode on this with Bloomberg's Lucas Shaw. So give us a quick synopsis.
1:00:43 Speaker 02 It is the number one thing people care about in Hollywood is, is my job going to be eliminated? And the answer sadly for a lot of people is yes. That a lot of these things like production design and costuming and storyboarding and visual effects, those will absolutely be influenced, if not replaced by AI eventually. Now, there are union protections that protect some of these people. And the above the line guilds have been at least somewhat effective in saying, okay, if you want to use AI to write a script. Fine, but there will be a human attached to that project who will ultimately be the credited writer who must be paid like a union represented writer.
1:01:28 Speaker 02 And the same for directors and actors. It's the other stuff that I think is going to be much more impacted, like animators, like people who are, you know, sound designers, things that there will there still be humans involved, but there will be fewer of them. That's how Jim Cameron talks about it. It's like, yeah, AI is going to come in, but it's going to help make a movie that takes four years, take two years.
1:01:53 Kara Swisher? Same thing with medicine. The drug that takes four years, two months.
1:01:57 Speaker 02 And the way Cameron characterized it is, no, it's not going to eliminate jobs. It's going to allow us to do more. And that's a nice optimistic way of thinking about it. But ultimately, people who have to spend four years on a movie are employed for four years.
1:02:12 Kara Swisher? Right.
1:02:12 Speaker 02 Where is that second movie coming from after two years? Maybe it's out there and maybe we will be able to produce more, or maybe we won't. And it will just be that the entire industry contracts to these two-year jobs.
1:02:25 Kara Swisher? What about the actors and AI slop in general?
1:02:28 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, the Actors Union is trying to protect that stuff. You you cannot use a SAG-AFTRA actor in a in a AI program like that. And there are rights, there are right of publicity rights in most states, including California, where you have the right, that whole Brad Pitt fighting Tom Cruise video that was on Sea Dance, that is not allowed. And they took that down because you do have rights to your own name, image, and likeness.
1:02:58 Kara Swisher? Although YouTube did that and then they dominated. Like, that was the beginning of YouTube, those fights, speaking of Philippe Dauman and Eric Schmidt.
1:03:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, and and most of these, most of these AI companies have taken the position that we will ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. So it's going to be whack a mole. And hopefully, there will be some court decisions that will come down on the side of content owners that will allow them to protect this stuff before it gets into the ethos.
1:03:24 Kara Swisher? Who's the most important AI company in this right now, then?
1:03:29 Speaker 02 I would say Google because you know, the whole, the whole reason that Disney did that OpenAI deal, other than experimenting, but it was to put pressure on Gemini and on Google because they have not come to the table and tried to work out a deal. And Disney very much wants Google to, to pay them and to work out some kind of deal. They're going to use characters. So, you know, we'll see. And, and keep in mind also, when Disney did this OpenAI deal, the one thing they weren't able to license are voices.
1:04:02 Kara Swisher? Right.
1:04:03 Speaker 02 And the images of the actors that play these characters. So if you look, it's Luke Skywalker, but it's the animated Luke Skywalker. It's Homer Simpson, but Homer doesn't talk.
1:04:14 Kara Swisher? Right, right.
1:04:15 Speaker 02 It's not a full experience without getting the intellectual property rights of the humans that are associated with these characters.
1:04:23 Kara Swisher? Which they'll have to pay for, like.
1:04:24 Speaker 02 Yes. Or you do a James Earl Jones deal. James Earl Jones, before he died, he licensed his voice to an AI company that will work with his estate and pay his relatives.
1:04:36 Kara Swisher? What effect does it have then on storytelling and creativity? I mean, what occurs in that environment?
1:04:42 Speaker 02 Well, the, the, the thinking is, is that the innovation in this area is going to come from outside Hollywood. Because of the limitations on, on the, the rights to use these IPs and these actors, that the real benefits are going to accrue to these outside companies that are just doing it on their own. I'm not so sure about that because, uh, you know, what were we talking about from Seed Dance? We weren't talking about any of the AI videos that they generated. We were talking about the Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt video. There is value in things that we know and, and can associate with entertainment. Maybe they'll create their own stars. Maybe there will be the AI Tom Cruise.
1:05:25 Kara Swisher? Yeah, they're trying.
1:05:26 Speaker 02 They're trying. I know. I don't say the Tilly Norwood.
1:05:30 Kara Swisher? No, it's just something wrong with it.
1:05:32 Speaker 02 That that is silly.
1:05:33 Kara Swisher? Someone just sent me an AI version of myself for a speech I'm giving and it was the wrong glass. It doesn't look I was like, take this the fuck down. Like, don't put my face on it.
1:05:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, and obviously, all that's going to get better and there will be you will be able to replicate. And I've seen some things online, like that AI Pierce Morgan looked pretty real.
1:05:49 Kara Swisher? It did.
1:05:50 Speaker 02 But you know what? Like, I I think that there is something about human creativity and the human
1:05:57 Kara Swisher? Agreed.
1:05:58 Speaker 02 touch on actors that at least for a while.
1:06:01 Kara Swisher? Writers, the two big movies this year were Sinners and Weapons, very dependent on their two creators.
1:06:08 Speaker 02 And and not not something that AI would have created.
1:06:11 Kara Swisher? Not.
1:06:11 Speaker 02 AI is a mean. It just boils stuff down based on what we've seen before.
1:06:17 Kara Swisher? I would see it like make more West Wings. That's fine.
1:06:21 Speaker 02 I did that. So I interviewed Aaron Storkin at an event in D C. And I put I asked chat G P T to create a West Wing script based on something that was going on in the Trump White House. And I read him some dialogue. It was cringey. It was terrible. He like, he was so embarrassed.
1:06:41 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll see where it goes. A couple more things before we go. One is, does politics really affect Hollywood right now? Obviously, Trump pretends to. I think it's the end of the era at this point. But you have FCC Chairman Brandon Carwood call the moron trying to meddle. You've got Trump saying things, trying to attack. I think they're they're sort of run through their paces here and it's almost over. Do they care in in Hollywood? They certainly have bent a knee a little bit. That's the expression people use.
1:07:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, there is a feeling that Hollywood is under attack by the Trump administration. And that either via Brendan Carr or via the Trump people wielding the regulatory power that there there you have to bend the knee and you have to to, you know, Bob Iger, I'm sure you've talked to him. He hates this stuff. He hates having to do this.
1:07:31 Kara Swisher? Almost all of them do. Almost all of them do.
1:07:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, and and it's just it's. Embarrassing for them. And I, I feel like that, that is kind of cast a pall over the industry that, that it's, you know, there was favored status and there's not favored status anymore. And in fact, the Trump people are actively trying to leverage and denigrate the industry, even, even little things like using Tropic Thunder in a Iran war video.
1:07:59 Kara Swisher? People got pissed about that. Everyone did.
1:08:01 Speaker 02 Everyone was pissed. Everyone they use.
1:08:03 Kara Swisher? So let's finish up two things. Academy Awards are on Sunday, so I can't let you go before we talk a tiny bit about the Oscars. Earlier this year, the Grammy Awards were full of overt anti ICE messages from the artists. The BAFTA Awards were held later in February and the BBC's broadcast censored pro Palestinian remarks made by an award winner. But I should mention they aired the N word Tourette's Syndrome campaigner, John Davidson, was in the audience promoting a documentary about the disability. He had unfortunate vocal outbursts. The BBC apologized for that oversight. Talk about the Oscars very quickly. What will politics be front and center? There shouldn't be a lot of Trump jokes, would be my guess.
1:08:34 Speaker 02 You know, the last couple of years, there haven't been as many Trump jokes. Certainly not like there were in 2017 and 2018. I think the industry kind of recognized and they were, they were kind of trying not to enrage and poke the bear a little bit. But the ICE stuff, I think this past year, I think it will, it will certainly be front and center.
1:08:56 Kara Swisher? But it's not Kimmel, it's Conan.
1:08:58 Speaker 02 It's Conan. Yeah, Conan is not as political and they picked him for that reason. Because they don't want to turn, you know, they, I, I've always argued that the, the politics stuff is, is not in the best interests of Hollywood. People tune it out. Have you ever watched one of these award shows with your more conservative relatives?
1:09:19 Kara Swisher? Yes, I have.
1:09:20 Speaker 02 I have. And they turn it off. They don't want to be lectured to.
1:09:24 Kara Swisher? But it's okay at the Grammys. I feel like.
1:09:26 Speaker 02 The Grammys are, are musicians, like they're supposed to be outrageous and that's, that's kind of fun. Although, you know, obviously, you know, when Ted Sarandos was in DC for the hearing, all of a sudden it turned into Ted Cruz talking about what Billie Eilish said at the Grammys. And it's like, that didn't even air on Netflix. Had nothing to do with Netflix.
1:09:47 Kara Swisher? He's a moron, another moron. He's never, you're never gonna be president Ted, just so you know. Cause nobody likes you.
1:09:53 Speaker 02 I think honestly, the themes of this year's two big contenders, Sinners, which is about kind of the stolen black identity and.
1:10:01 Kara Swisher? Great movie.
1:10:02 Speaker 02 And and one battle after another, which is basically about an Antifa type organization and the aftermath of that. I think because of that, you might see a little bit more of that, at least subtly from the winners. I don't think Ryan Coogler or Paul Thomas Anderson are the kinds to to get up and start lecturing, but there will be a little bit.
1:10:21 Kara Swisher? They'll make a remark or two. It'll be a woman who does it in case you're interested. So let's do a quick lightning round. Who do you predict will win best actor?
1:10:28 Speaker 02 This is the race of the year.
1:10:29 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:10:30 Speaker 02 Uh, I'm going with Shalhoub.
1:10:32 Kara Swisher? I'm going with Jordan.
1:10:33 Speaker 02 You are? Why is that? Because of the online backlash to him saying that ballet and opera are not cool anymore?
1:10:38 Kara Swisher? No, I don't really care about ballet. I don't, I don't.
1:10:41 Speaker 02 No, but that people think that Timmy lost the Oscar because he made disparaging comments about opera. But voting had basically closed. You think the sinners momentum is going to propel Michael B. Jordan?
1:10:51 Kara Swisher? I just think he's the best. I think he deserves it and he's and it's for his body of work. He's just, he's a star.
1:10:56 Speaker 02 You know, it never, the body of work never matters.
1:10:59 Kara Swisher? Sometimes it does. In this case, it's a great movie and people are remembering. People, you know, for the last one they just did, people are remembering what a great movie it was.
1:11:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, I would love it. And Michael B. Jordan is great.
1:11:08 Kara Swisher? I have seen sinners several times. I've never seen Tim Ote. I just don't want to look at him. I'm just, I just don't want to look at him. I don't want to look at him. He looks like a lesbian. I, he looks like a someone I dated in the 1980s.
1:11:19 Speaker 02 Oh, my God, really?
1:11:20 Kara Swisher? Anyway, yeah, okay. Uh, very pretty guy. Um, best actress?
1:11:23 Speaker 02 Jessie Buckley, easy.
1:11:25 Kara Swisher? Buckley, easy.
1:11:26 Speaker 02 You see him?
1:11:27 Kara Swisher? I can't see it because dead children. I can't do it.
1:11:29 Speaker 02 It's tough, but if it's rewarding, it's rewarding.
1:11:32 Kara Swisher? I love her period, even though I'm sorry about the bride, but I've always loved her. I think she's great. And everybody seems to think she's the best one there.
1:11:39 Speaker 02 She, the only, the only stunner would be Rose Byrne for If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You. But I, Jessie Buckley has won everything.
1:11:47 Kara Swisher? Jessie Buckley's overwhelmingly the odds on favorite. Best original screenplay?
1:11:51 Speaker 02 I think it's gonna be sinners. That's a shoe in.
1:11:54 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:11:54 Speaker 02 That's the one, we, we at least know Coogler will have one moment on stage because even if he doesn't win director picture, he'll win screenplay.
1:12:02 Kara Swisher? All right, director?
1:12:04 Speaker 02 Paul Thomas Anderson.
1:12:05 Kara Swisher? Okay.
1:12:05 Speaker 02 He's won all of the precursor awards.
1:12:08 Kara Swisher? All right. I just feel like Kugler. I love, I would love, that's who I want to get.
1:12:11 Speaker 02 Yeah. The, you know, don't forget, the Academy has a big international branch.
1:12:17 Kara Swisher? Oh, yeah.
1:12:18 Speaker 02 And the international voters, he's just been around a longer time.
1:12:22 Kara Swisher? I know.
1:12:22 Speaker 02 And he, it's one of those where people feel like it's his time.
1:12:27 Kara Swisher? Do the Oscars matter anymore? Does it matter for the business or what?
1:12:30 Speaker 02 For the business, it certainly matters.
1:12:32 Kara Swisher? Declining viewership, declining, declining, declining. Do they matter for the business? Why?
1:12:37 Speaker 02 They do. And, and they matter because of the streaming wars. The box office of these movies is not really impacted that much by the Oscars like it used to be, where you platform release and all of a sudden, a movie that got a Best Picture nomination would gross $300 million by the time the show. That doesn't happen anymore. But the value of these titles in a sea of tiles on a streaming service.
1:13:02 Kara Swisher? Differentiation.
1:13:03 Speaker 02 It is a differentiator and Netflix and Amazon and Apple and Disney, they all see huge value in having an Oscar winner on the platform.
1:13:12 Kara Swisher? And there's lots more awards now, too. Those matter, too.
1:13:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, all the precursors and it's a season, it's a great promotion, it's a way to lure talent. The reason Netflix spends so much on their campaigns is because they know they have to win people over because they don't offer theaters. So they say, you know what, we may not offer you the chance to gross $100 million, but we're going to treat Frankenstein like it's the most special movie that you've ever made. We're going to have screenings for all the Academy members, all the festivals, and we're going to spend $20 million to get you an Oscar nomination. And they did.
1:13:47 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. So I'm still not going. Sorry.
1:13:51 Speaker 02 Someday. If I promised you that Cruise would be there and that you could meet him, would you come with me?
1:13:56 Kara Swisher? Yes. If I could meet him, really, not just like we run into him and like we chase him around. I'm not doing that. I'm, I'm over chasing any celebrity around.
1:14:04 Speaker 02 Okay. That's my new goal.
1:14:06 Kara Swisher? I, let me just tell you, I like to wear soft pants and so it would take a lot to not get me in soft pants. I'm just telling you. I'm, by the way, I'm about to be a TV star, you know, just with my TV show, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever on CNN.
1:14:17 Speaker 02 Well, there you go.
1:14:17 Kara Swisher? And then I shall depart CNN. Goodbye.
1:14:19 Speaker 02 But are you, are you gonna, what kind of clothes are you gonna wear on your show?
1:14:23 Kara Swisher? You'll see. My, my outfits, my very, very.
1:14:26 Speaker 02 Not formal wear.
1:14:26 Kara Swisher? No, very comfortable. It's gonna be great. It's coming out soon.
1:14:29 Speaker 02 What did you wear to the Vanity Fair party? You didn't wear a dress?
1:14:31 Kara Swisher? No. I didn't, I just didn't dress up. I couldn't do it. I'm sorry. No one cares what I look like. I just look at people and go up to them.
1:14:38 Speaker 02 Well, I, I love it that I just have to wear a tuxedo. It's very.
1:14:41 Kara Swisher? Oh, well, that you look good in that. You look good. I just can't do it. And I don't want to wear a tuxedo because how lesbian is that? Anyway, last question. You've said you'd make a lot more money if you left Puck and went independent. I told you that. You and I, just for disclosure, he and I talk about the biz of being independent journalists all the time. When the 2027 Oscars roll around, will you still be at Puck or why or why not? Talk a little bit about this because you did very kindly say you want to be like me someday, but you already are like me someday.
1:15:06 Speaker 02 I don't have a CNN show.
1:15:08 Kara Swisher? And I do make a lot more money than you, Matt. I know this. But talk about what it's like to be an independent journalist. I mean, I was very touched when you said that. But what do you, how do you feel about doing what you're doing? Because you, you and I have both come up in traditional, you know, whether you were at the, wherever you were, and I was at the Washington Post and, and the Wall Street Journal. And I did, I didn't, I didn't work for the New York Times, but I wrote for them. Talk a little bit about where we are right now as media, because you have more influence than almost anybody, I think, anybody in this thing. So how do you look at the, this moment? How do you think about it as someone who's doing independent media, which is growing in impact and influence and finances? I do really well. And I think you do too.
1:15:50 Speaker 02 The way I, I describe it to people who ask me about this, and they ask a lot, is if you are providing more value to the media brand that you work for than the media brand is providing to you, then you should probably leave and go independent and leverage the fact that you are the brand.
1:16:08 Kara Swisher? Right.
1:16:08 Speaker 02 And I was sort of dumb. I didn't really recognize that until I started out and started doing my newsletter. And maybe I, you know, I created a product that people like and I made it more of an impact when I was independent. But I had a lot of cachet, more cachet than I thought, when I launched Puck. People called me back. They returned my emails. They invited me to things. They, I had 20 years of relationships in this world that allowed me to go out and do this, this thing on my own. And I don't want to downplay the role that Puck played. It's sort of a hybrid. Yeah.
1:16:47 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:16:47 Speaker 02 I was our first author and I kind of planted the flag of what the brand would be. But Puck has provided a lot of services.
1:16:56 Kara Swisher? That's how I feel about Vox.
1:16:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, they provide editing, they provide the platform, they provide marketing, they help me put on events.
1:17:03 Kara Swisher? That you don't want to do.
1:17:04 Speaker 02 That I don't, that stuff I don't want to do. And I've done it. I used to joke that my day was consumed by meetings at Hollywood Reporter. And that's what you have to do when you're running a media outlet. Now, I actively say, do I need to be in this meeting? And the answer is almost always no. And I'm really able to focus on the product. And that's where I think I can make a big impact.
1:17:28 Kara Swisher? Yeah, you just called the word the product like the McDonald's CEO, but go ahead.
1:17:31 Speaker 02 I know. Trust me. If you watch me eating a burger, it's a lot, lot more authentic than that guy.
1:17:37 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:17:38 Speaker 02 But, but you know what I mean? It's, it's, um, it's totally doable for a certain type of reporter editor, especially if you have something to say. Like, you have to ask yourself, like, do I have, do I have a perspective? Do I have a point of view on things? And most people don't.
1:17:57 Kara Swisher? It's also based in reporting. One of the best things that I ever heard from an editor was Tina Brown, where she said, I can teach people to write, but I can't teach them to see. You know, and she meant reporting and I thought that was exactly right.
1:18:09 Speaker 02 And sometimes I don't even recognize it. I'll do, I'll do a newsletter that I don't think is particularly incisive. And people will respond. They'll be like, wow, I hadn't thought of that. So like, if you do this long enough, it sort of just comes out of you. And that's really where the podcast is where the town came from. Because we were like, what are people in town talking about? And how do we reflect that in a show that would be authentic?
1:18:33 Kara Swisher? All right, very valuable. Last question. What's the most interesting story going to be in 2027 in Hollywood? Well, the end of the next year, over the next year. If you were like, what's the one that intrigues you the very most? I know I get Warner Mounds interesting, but honestly, they're just going to lose a lot of money.
1:18:49 Speaker 02 Do you think Rupert's going to die in a year?
1:18:52 Kara Swisher? I think he's never going to die.
1:18:53 Speaker 02 Okay, so that's off the table.
1:18:55 Kara Swisher? Rupert, yes. Okay, that's a great one. Yeah.
1:18:56 Speaker 02 What happens when Rupert dies?
1:18:58 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:18:58 Speaker 02 Because I think that the Murdoch empire is going to change significantly.
1:19:03 Kara Swisher? Yes.
1:19:04 Speaker 02 I think that the newspapers will either be sold or carved up.
1:19:09 Kara Swisher? Network.
1:19:09 Speaker 02 Or, you know, what's gonna happen to the Fox broadcasting? All of that stuff is in play. You know, the succession battle is over, but when Rupert's gone, I think all bets are off.
1:19:19 Kara Swisher? All right. And who's the most important player, right? If you had to pick one, right now, going forward? If you say that person is critical.
1:19:27 Speaker 02 I think two, Josh Demaro and David Ellison, in terms of what they're gonna do. They've got the most choices to make.
1:19:36 Kara Swisher? Right.
1:19:36 Speaker 02 And choices are what it's all about. What you choose to do and don't do, the bets you make, the transformative deals that you okay, all of that.
1:19:45 Kara Swisher? And who's gonna be more successful, if you're gonna make a bet?
1:19:48 Speaker 02 Uh, oh, God, I don't know. I want them both to be successful for the benefit of the industry.
1:19:53 Kara Swisher? So nice.
1:19:55 Speaker 02 But you know what? In terms of track record, obviously, Demaro has a track record of success in the Parks Division at Disney, and we'll see how he does atop the whole thing.
1:20:06 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:20:07 Speaker 02 David Ellison doesn't have as much experience. He ran a smallish production company and is now running two studios, so we'll see how that goes. But we'll see. He's got a lot of smart people around him.
1:20:18 Kara Swisher? Well, we'll see who stays around. We'll see who comes around and stuff like that. I always go with the person who didn't get their job by being born, in any industry, except for Rupert Murdoch.
1:20:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:20:30 Kara Swisher? But he took a small operation and made a huge global.
1:20:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, same with Brian Roberts at Comcast.
1:20:36 Kara Swisher? Yep.
1:20:36 Speaker 02 Same with Summer Redstone. You know, he took a small theater company.
1:20:41 Kara Swisher? Yeah, but I don't think, I don't love... You know, people being born and getting a job. I don't love it. I don't love it. Never love it.
1:20:50 Speaker 02 Well, we certainly wouldn't be talking about David Ellison as the, you know, second most powerful person in Hollywood if
1:20:56 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:20:56 Speaker 02 he wasn't born who he was. But you know what? It is what it is.
1:21:00 Kara Swisher? Yep, and here we are. All right, Matt, this has been so fascinating. You are a wonderful journalist. You really are. And I put that first and foremost.
1:21:07 Speaker 02 Well, I appreciate it. You know, I'm a fan.
1:21:09 Kara Swisher? You're a snarky person, which I love. But, and I love that part, but at your heart, you're an excellent reporter. And that's the critical part, everybody, just for, just so you know, for both of us, as snarky and obnoxious.
1:21:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, snark doesn't sell. No one subscribes to snark.
1:21:21 Kara Swisher? They like it. They do like it.
1:21:23 Speaker 02 It's a, it's got, my, my point, you always got to have everything. You got to be entertaining. You got to be newsy. You got to have reporting and you got to have smart perspective.
1:21:31 Kara Swisher? Yep, absolutely. And you have all that. Anyway, thank you so much. This was really fun. I really was looking forward to it. Thank you so much.
1:21:38 Speaker 02 Oscars 27, you and me.
1:21:39 Kara Swisher? Okay, all right. You get it going. All right. Okay. Thank you, Matt. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsap, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Madeline LaPlante, Duby, and Corinne Ruff. This episode was engineered by Aliyah Jackson Perez, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're following the show, you get to run CBS News. If not, you're a nepo mogul. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.
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