Ryan Holiday: Why You Need to Reparent Your 14-Year-Old Self & How to Overcome the Fear of Not Being Good Enough

What would you tell your 14-year-old self? How do you quiet the “not good enough” voice? Today, Jay welcomes Ryan Holiday, renowned philosopher, bestselling author, and host of The Daily Stoic. With over 10 million copies of his books sold globally, Ryan returns to the podcast to dive deep into the concepts of personal growth, parenting, and finding purpose in a success-driven world. Ryan reflects on the journey of becoming a parent and discusses the difference between having kids and truly being a parent. He explains why intentional parenting is a radical shift from simply fulfilling biological or legal roles and explores the transformative impact of parenthood on personal and professional ambitions, emphasizing the importance of being prepared for the changes it brings. Jay also opens up about his own thoughts on parenthood and the life shifts that accompany major decisions, offering a heartfelt glimpse into the conversations he’s had with his wife about the timing of having children. Throughout the conversation, both Jay and Ryan unpack the struggles of balancing a career with personal life, with Ryan drawing from Stoic philosophy to offer guidance on setting meaningful goals, aligning actions with values, and learning from life's obstacles. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Embrace Parenthood as a Central Life Purpose How to Set Goals Based on What’s in Your Control How to Approach Parenting with Intention and Purpose How to Learn from Life’s Obstacles and Failures How to Align Your Career with Personal Values How to Build Emotional Resilience through Parenthood Whether through parenting, personal growth, or our professional pursuits, the key is to stay rooted in what truly matters—our values, intentions, and the legacy we leave behind. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:33 Are You Ready to Become a Parent? 05:43 What Type of Goal Should We Set? 10:54 Love What You’re Doing 18:59 Stuck in Life 22:06 Trust the Process 26:04 Patience 30:18 Process of Accumulating Experiences 33:35 What Difference Are You Making? 35:57 Raise a Reader 40:14 What Are You Struggling With? 45:00 General Parenting Tip 52:56 Unconditional Parental Love 58:50 Do What’s Important to You 01:02:04 What is at Stake? 01:06:03 Comparison Game 01:09:36 Dad Guilt 01:15:30 Fear as a Parent 01:19:11 This Stops with Me Episode Resources: Ryan Holiday | Website Ryan Holiday | Instagram Ryan Holiday | Facebook Ryan Holiday | TikTok Ryan Holiday | YouTube Ryan Holiday | LinkedIn The Daily Dad: 366 Meditations on Parenting, Love, and Raising Great Kids See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Jay Shetty?

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• 1:14Jay Shetty?

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• 1:54Jay Shetty?

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• 2:19Speaker 02

  What is the things that light you up? Success should facilitate you being able to do as much of those things as you want to do. If you don't have time to do the thing that only you can do, what kind of life is that? He's the host of The Daily Stoic. His books have sold more than 10 million copies. Ryan Holiday, ladies and gentlemen. Just piling accomplishments on top of accomplishments is not the way one finds meaning in their life or their existence. There has to be some point where you go, this stops with me.

• 2:49Jay Shetty?

  We're thrilled to announce that we've reached 3 million subscribers. We're incredibly grateful for each and every one of you. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss out on any of our new releases. We're dedicated to bringing you the content you love. Our team carefully analyzes what resonates most with you to bring on board the best experts and storytellers to help you improve your life. Some of your favorite topics are sleep science, weight loss, physical fitness, navigating breakups, habit building, and understanding toxic relationships. Upcoming episodes include one of the biggest names in health and science, world-renowned relationship therapist,

• 3:31Jay Shetty?

  and your favorite manifestation expert is back to drop new findings. Hit subscribe to not miss any of these episodes. If you think of someone who would love this episode, send it to them to make their day.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.

• 3:52Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and wellness podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is probably our record holder of most times on the podcast, which makes me very happy. I was just saying to him offline that the doors of On Purpose will always be open to him because when I first kicked off my interviewer journey, I had a show at HuffPost called Follow the Reader. It was on HuffPost Live. I would be on Facebook Live every single day interviewing authors. I was just starting out, probably had like, I don't know, like 100,000. People who are connected to my work and he would always come on and I think I interviewed him twice there.

• 4:35Jay Shetty?

  I then interviewed him at NASDAQ when I had a NASDAQ reads show. Then he came on my podcast when it kicked off. I'm talking about the one and only Ryan Holiday, one of the world's best selling living philosophers. Ryan's books include The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, The Daily Stoic, Discipline is Destiny, and the number one New York Times bestseller Stillness is the Key and appear in more than forty languages and sold more than six million copies. Ryan's bookstore, The Painted Porch, which I've not been able to visit yet, but I really want to, is one of the most incredible projects he's working on. And his new book is The Daily Dad, Three Hundred and Sixty Five Meditations on Parenting, Love, and Raising Great Kids. I even matched my T-shirt. That's how much I love this book.

• 5:18Jay Shetty?

  Go and grab a copy. If you love Ryan's work, you're gonna love this book. And as someone who is preparing and thinking about being a dad, at some point in his life, I'm really excited for this conversation. Welcome back to On Purpose, Ryan Holiday. Ryan, thanks for being here, man.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think about that first interview all the time because I think my voice failed. If I'm remembering correctly, I've been doing like interviews for like days and days. And then my voice just stopped and there was some snee- someone was like crawling on the floor giving me water, whatever. But now every time I'm like, I hope that doesn't happen again.

• 5:49Jay Shetty?

  You got a good, that's exactly what happened. So we're in this smaller room.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:52Jay Shetty?

  We weren't in the studio that day for some reason. So we booked this separate room in the office. And yes, your throat fell and you were coughing and you felt uncomfortable. I'm looking at the producer going, give him some more, give him some more. Cause there wasn't water for some reason. Here, we have plenty of water today. You have your, he brought his own, everyone, if you're not watching.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  That's how much I think about it all the time.

• 6:10Jay Shetty?

  And, and you're spot on. The producer literally crawled to avoid being in the shot.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and people don't, I mean, obviously producers serve an unsung role, but like you don't understand all the things that are going on behind the scenes that make it not terrible. And yeah, I think she like crawled under the floor and sneakily handed me the water.

• 6:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, Helena, why don't you do that? Well, I've never seen you do that before.

• 6:34Jay Shetty?

  That's because you're well prepared. No, I genuinely meant what I said. I appreciate it. I love talking to you. I've always been a fan of your ideas. And, you know, to have, I've had so many interactions with you. It makes me very grateful.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Well, sometimes it's good when like something terrible happens. I just think about it as like crossing it off the list. Like, I remember I gave this talk. This is maybe like 15 years ago. I gave a talk at Yale. There's this thing called the master's tea and you give a talk in the house of one of the headmasters at Yale. It's this sort of prestigious thing. It's really cool. I hadn't given many talks and I'm sitting there and you sit on these couches and like a handful of students are invited and I'm sitting there and I feel something on my shoulder. And then I look over and there's someone leaning on my shoulder. What's this? And I realized that one of the students has fallen asleep while I was talking. And so I'm like, you know, it'll never be that bad, right? That's like the word, you know, you, you sometimes you, you want to get the terrible things out of the way. And then you're just like, all right, like it doesn't matter how much I screw up,

• 7:28Speaker 02

  how bad the podcast goes, it's unlikely my voice will completely abandon me ever again.

• 7:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  And now I can, I can rest assured.

• 7:35Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. Yeah, I, I got to have that. That's crazy. I got to have one of those experiences early, early on in my life. I was like seven or eight years old and we used to do in London, school assemblies that were dedicated to people's religious holidays.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:49Jay Shetty?

  At school. So you'd celebrate everything from Hanukkah to, to Christmas, to Diwali, et cetera. And so it was Diwali and coming from an Indian background and a Hindu background, I was, my mom had volunteered for me to perform a piece in my, not even native language, but scriptural language, dressed up as an ancient Indian prince king vibe. And so I go out there, the, the clothes are not flattering, like it's not looking right. And there's parts of my body showing. It's almost like a toga, like an Indian toga. And I have to read this thing, which I'm not very familiar with, and I have to sing it too. And I have a terrible singing voice. I can't sing to save my life.

• 8:32Jay Shetty?

  And I start singing and all my friends are in the audience and they burst out laughing. And then I'm getting really nervous and everyone's laughing so much that I start crying.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:43Jay Shetty?

  And then I forget the lines because I'm so nervous. So I look down to read them and I can't read them because my tears have smudged the the words on the page. And then all of a sudden, my this is the most embarrassing part. My teacher comes on, puts her arm around me and walks me off stage. And I didn't live that down. That was my first ever experience of public speaking, so.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's probably not gonna be worse than that.

• 9:04Jay Shetty?

  No, no, I hope not. I hope not now. But, you know, I'm really excited to talk to you about this because you just asked me a question and I, you know, we were just talking about this and I said, let's start recording because it's a good, uh, good conversation. You asked me if I'm thinking about being a parent.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:20Jay Shetty?

  And I was saying that me and my wife have always wanted to have kids. But it's really interesting because we'd set up a life that we thought we were gonna have. We bought a house right next to her parents, near all our friends in London. It was small but wonderful and we were surrounded by the community we thought we had. And then my career took off in a very unexpected way.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:41Jay Shetty?

  Which brought me to New York and now to LA. And it's really interesting that as things started to change in what we expected of life, our expectations of ourselves changed. And that hasn't changed the desire to have kids, but what did change was, you know, my wife got so immersed in discovering her passion, something that she never even thought

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:59Jay Shetty?

  she'd think about. And having discovered that, we started to have really, we've always had really healthy, open conversations around not when to have kids, because I think, to me, that isn't necessarily the right conversation. To me, the healthiest conversation with my wife has been, do we know how it's gonna change our life to whatever degree you can know? And are we ready for that change right now? And that's kind of the structure that we've at least placed for our conversations to have a healthy understanding for each other.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  I think what you said at the beginning, though, was interesting because, uh, so a lot of people talk about having kids. But you said, are we going to be parents? And I think that's an interesting distinction that we don't talk about enough, right? Like, having kids is biological or it's legal, right? You adopt or you get a bonus kid from a marriage. Like, there, there is having kids, like people who live in your house, and then there is the decision to be a parent. And unfortunately, there are a lot more people who have kids. Then there are people who are parents, people who decide to make this a central part of what they do. Right? Having kids is doing the legal bare minimum, what you have to do to keep child protective services away from your house. And then there is the decision to say, I'm going to change my life around this thing.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  This is going to be the main, the main or one of the main things that I do. And I'm going to try to be really good at it. Right? Like, most people spend a lot of time trying to get great at their careers. They want to make more money. They want to accomplish all these things. And then parenting is kind of this thing that we, we just hope that we get right. We just win it. Right? And that's a tragic skewed sense of priorities, I think.

• 11:40Jay Shetty?

  That's a brilliant distinction. I'm so glad you raised that. You reminded me of, there's this Vedic verse that says, one should not take on the responsibility of being a parent unless they're ready to enlighten their child.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:54Jay Shetty?

  Like, there's that, that kind of, the idea of what you just said of flipping the script of like, when should we have kids? Do I want to have kids to, do I know what it means to be a parent? And that's hard sometimes. Like, it's a challenge because I think all of us look at ourselves and we go, we're flawed, normal individuals with trauma, with challenges. And we're like, well, maybe I don't deserve to have kids. You can go the other way, or I'll never be qualified to have kids.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, the comedian Tom Segura has this bit where he goes, you know, people say that having kids changes you. And he goes, that's not quite right. It's that having kids should change you. Right? So like, if you're not ready to be changed, that's one of the things when people ask me, they go, I'm thinking about having kids. What, what should I do? And I go, you have to be ready for it to change you. Like, not only can you not live and organize your life the same way, but you're going to be opened emotionally, physically, spiritually, in all of these ways that if you're resistant to, because you liked the way things were before, you're not only doing your kids a disservice, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice. Because this is, this is a profound, you know, sort of shift on a human level.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  And if you're not ready to be changed by it, you're probably not ready to do it.

• 13:07Jay Shetty?

  Were you conscious about being a parent before you were a parent? Or is it something that came from the process?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  No, it definitely came from the process. Like, you, you think, you think you know, and you have ideas. But it's not until this thing happens to you.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  That you go, oh, all these other things aren't as important to me anymore. Right. I think I do wish, sometimes I think about wishing that I'd done it earlier. There's this thing that happens when you achieve what you set out to achieve. Right. Which is that you realize it doesn't mean that much. Right. You, you write a bestselling book, you sell a screenplay, you know, you have some number in your mind. And then maybe it's winning a gold medal, you, you do something and then you get it and you go, oh, this is like nothing, right. This is, this didn't change what I thought it would change. It didn't transform me in the way that I thought it transformed me. I feel lucky that I'd done a bunch of those things before I had kids.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Because then I'd already, I was already wrestling with the, not the emptiness, but I was wrestling with the, the inescapable conclusion that just piling accomplishments on top of accomplishments is not the way that one finds meaning in their life or their existence.

• 14:27Jay Shetty?

  What do you think it does do then? Like, what does it do in any goal? And of course, some goals are, have a different scale to others. But the idea of becoming a bestselling author, or someone who's listening saying, I want to launch a big podcast, or someone saying, I want, the way I look at it is, and I remember going on a really long walk with you once, like through New York before I'd ever written a book or anything. And it was around the time when I first interviewed you. If someone honestly asked me when I was doing this type of work offline, I actually, A, never believed it would be big. And B, was not trying to make it big. So if someone would have asked me when I was, whether I was 18 or whether I was 25 and said to me,

• 15:11Jay Shetty?

  Jay, like, what's your goal here? My honest answer would have been, I'm just trying to make ancient wisdom relevant because I get joy out of that act in and of itself. Like, the act of studying, researching and simplifying brings me joy.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 15:26Jay Shetty?

  And I love teaching and sharing and sharing those ideas with people and hearing what they have to say about it. And so I was doing that for five to 10 people every week, for hours every day.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:36Jay Shetty?

  I was already happy. Now, my life changed when scale became possible, when a video by mistake went viral. Like, it wasn't that I thought it would go viral or whatever, and then life has changed. But So partly my answer to that question, or my reflection to the question I'm asking you is, I don't think you should ever start something wanting it to be big in the first place. But what does a, what does having a goal achieve and what type of goal should we set?

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Well, the Stoics talk about attaching their goals only to things that are in your control. So if your ambition is to be accepted by a certain group, to move a certain number of units, to make a certain amount of money, to be invited to a certain club. You know, if things line up, great, but there's also a very significant chance that they won't line up. And so the idea is that you tie your ambition, your intention, your motivation to the parts of it that are up to you. I really like doing it. I get better. Like, one of the reasons I wrote The Daily Stoic and The Daily Dad is that I have become better as a person for the meditative practice of having to produce this thing on a daily basis.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  So if it also then goes on to be successful, then I get this sort of, this bonus success of the rewards or the royalties or whatever. So it's, I think you want to root what you're trying to do as much as possible in what is up to you. So if you only enter competitions where winning is up to you, you will always be a winner, right? And so if your, if your goal is to beat this other person, right? To be more than this other person, this other type of person. I remember I talked to this author once and, and he was working on this book and he said, I said, what's your goal? And he said, oh, I want to sell like two million copies. And I said, well, where'd that number came from? And he's like, well, I heard somebody had sold a million copies and I doubled it.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  And so the arbitrariness of just wanting to one up some other person, it's not only sort of empty and trivial, but like, it's not really rooted in anything that's up to you, right? And I think the best way to think about it is, is this thing up to me or not? And, and what I have found is that when you accomplish those things, it's great. But it doesn't fix whatever you thought it was trying to fix. It doesn't. Fill whatever you thought it was trying to fill. I wish I could give to everyone that understanding as early as possible. I do think it's probably something you have to experience at some level on your own. But ideally, you experience it not on your fifth Super Bowl ring.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  And you go, oh, it's never, you know, ideally, that that comes as early as possible. Uh, in the process, that doesn't mean that once you figure it out, you stop doing it. You do stop, you, you, you can keep doing it. But you've just, you've broken the connection between, uh, like your sense of self and these external things that are not up to you.

• 18:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, that resonates. I, I feel like to, for me, growing and learning are just such integral components of being alive.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:46Jay Shetty?

  And feeling like there's progress and there's momentum. That I try and pick goals that I'm challenged by the growth I'll have to make. I set goals based on the growth I want, not based on the goal.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 19:02Jay Shetty?

  So for example, I just finished a nearly forty city world tour. It wasn't that I wanted to go on a world tour, to go on a world tour. It was like, I wanted the feeling of can I, have I built up my health and resilience?

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:19Jay Shetty?

  Can I go on stage every night and deliver? What does it feel like to pour love into the people who support my work? I've been doing this for seven years online, yet I've pretty much never met more than 1% of my audience, if that. What does it feel like to build community again for people? And that's the stuff that gets you through it when it's tough.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:39Jay Shetty?

  Because the title or the, whatever the external reward would be, doesn't motivate you when I fell sick in one city and I had to cancel a show that night. And the next day I had to wake up, get on a flight and do two shows back to back that day. And the only thing that gets you through is, I want to do this for my community. This means something to me. Like, there's this amazing thing that I always think about because it blows my mind. When Kobe Bryant passed away, his wife Vanessa was giving a speech. And she said that he was always playing through injuries and everyone knew that, but no one really knew the reason. And she asked him in a private conversation, I believe, one night, like, why do you do it? And he said, it's because.

• 20:22Jay Shetty?

  Someone has saved up to watch me play.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:26Jay Shetty?

  And they might only ever be able to afford one time to watch me play.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 20:31Jay Shetty?

  And I don't want to let them down.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:32Jay Shetty?

  And that's how he played through injury. It wasn't that he wanted the championship more, or that he wanted the the ring more. It was that I want to be there for my fans who are showing up for me.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 20:45Jay Shetty?

  I want to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  I mean, you have you have my book Conspiracy right there, which I saw when I came in. And that's my worst selling book. It is not that it hasn't sold well.

• 20:55Jay Shetty?

  It's not that it's bad.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just.

• 20:56Jay Shetty?

  Your worst seller, is it?

• 20:57Speaker 02

  It's not sold well, but it's it's the one that without question, if people ask me what book I'm most proud of, it's that one. And and that's because I grew the most writing. It was the most outside my wheelhouse. It was the most challenging. It was the one I had the most doubts as to whether I could pull off. And it's the one that sort of most authentically interesting to me while I was doing it. I you love all the projects that you do, but that one was just different. You know, it was it was just different in so many ways. If you can find a way, when the when the Stoics are saying, if you only enter things, winning is up to you, you always win. What they're saying is that if if it's intrinsically interesting and compelling and challenging to you,

• 21:41Speaker 02

  you're doing it because you like the puzzle of it, then you've already won. And then everything else is extra. And, you know, for basketball, if if you like playing basketball, and there's a reason it's called playing, right? If you like the thing, then then all the other stuff is extra. But if for you, winning is what gets you up out of bed. Well, then what happens if you're drafted by a team that's not any good? Or what if you are crippled with injuries or, you know, any number of things, right? Winning is not up to you. Enjoying the the day to day-ness of it, the lacing up of the sneakers, the squeaking of the shoes on the floor, the bouncing of the ball, like the warm ups, you know, the crap. If if you love all of that, then everything else is extra.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  And you got you got to figure out how to love like the the purity of the thing itself and find something in it that is fulfilling and wonderful just to you before it's ever out. That's the purest place and I've had to do work on that. I've said this before, but like probably with my first book, I was probably like ninety percent interested in how it did and ten percent like proud of what I'd done. And I'd like to think I've gotten that flipped. I mean, if you don't care about it at all, like you're not going to keep doing them and you have partners and you know, you have employees, you have all these things that are dependent on it doing well. But ideally, most of the success is off the table just from having done it.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Because what if it comes out on the day of a terrorist attack or a natural disaster or a printer shortage? Like, there's so many things that could happen that could get between you and the thing that you wanted. But if you enjoy doing it, then then you've you've picked all the fruit that's up to you to pick.

• 23:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. You reminded me of a statement by George Bernard Shaw where he said, "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing."

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:33Jay Shetty?

  And and it's that idea of just, you're so right. Like, I feel out of touch with myself when I'm not reading and learning and reflecting.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:45Jay Shetty?

  Like, that's when I feel misaligned. If my life gets too far away from finding new ideas, experimenting with them, discovering them, trying to understand them and wrap my head around them, if I'm not filling my brain up with not just ideas theoretically, but even physically trying something new, experimenting with something I've never done before, I find that's when I'm misaligned with who I am. This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with

• 24:27Jay Shetty?

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• 24:43Jay Shetty?

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• 25:26Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process. And once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful,

• 26:10Jay Shetty?

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• 26:22Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, look, success in your chosen field cannot be not having time to do what you like to do in said field, right? Like, if I don't have time to read, if I don't have time to write, if I'm not on my routine, on my schedule, what kind of success is that? I've mortgaged myself for a bunch of things that I don't want to do. You know, those things might be lucrative. Those things might be fun. Those things might be rewarding in their own ways. But the main thing is like, what got you into this? Right? And if you don't have the time to do that, what, what kind of success is that? Right? It can be very easy to just say yes to all the things that are coming in. And then you wake up and you go, it has been weeks since I did X, Y, or Z. Like the things that light me up.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Like, what is the things that light you up? And success should facilitate you being able to do as much of those things as you want to do. Are there always going to be administrative things and obligations and business? Of course, but if you don't have time to do the thing that only you can do, like, what, what kind of life is that?

• 27:26Jay Shetty?

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• 28:05Jay Shetty?

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• 28:50Jay Shetty?

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• 29:36Jay Shetty?

  I know we both feel grateful and have tried our own, in some ways, similar paths from moving from a corporate career to Yeah. to doing what we love today. And I know we both feel very grateful to be able to do that. But I want to go back to when you were there. And even when I was there, I think about what really worked for me was, so I was at Accenture, for anyone who doesn't know. I was at Accenture after I left the monastery because I needed to find a way to pay the bills and just reconnect with the real world and and figure out how I fit in again. And the corporate world was what I would have naturally done before. So it was where I ended up. And I didn't enjoy being a consultant. Like, that is not who I am in any way. But at that time, I didn't know what was possible,

• 30:18Jay Shetty?

  but I knew that I could demonstrate my own skills at work. So I started to plan these idea days at work because that was something that work wanted, where I would get to bring in speakers to help people be more curious and excited. And I remember we had Saleem Ishmael, who wrote Exponential Organizations, come in one day. And my mind was blown because I was like, I'm going to hang out with this guy. And there was another person who was a writer and a speaker. And so I was always trying to find ways at work to kind of dovetail my career.

• 30:51Jay Shetty?

  To get me into the things I was interested by. And that worked for me as a way of satisfying me at work, even though the actual job day to day wasn't. How were you doing that? I know you enjoyed marketing and always have. But what would you say to someone who's sitting here going, yeah, you guys are lucky. You get to do what you love every day. Obviously, you just have to get the percentages right. But I'm stuck in a job that I hate.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny. We did have very similar past. I remember, so I don't believe in this idea that you have to like quit your job, blow up your life to pursue some sort of thing. I wrote three books while I was a full time employee at a large fashion brand. And if you are good at what you do, you can get leverage at that company to pursue these other things. But I remember this would have been like the summer of 2014. I so I'd written a couple of books and I had, I'd gone back to American Apparel, where I was sort of consulting in the turnaround of the company. I was getting this huge consultant fee. I was making great money. And I remember I was running in the morning and I got this like alert on my phone that I had a meeting, like had a staff meeting.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  And I something hit me. It hit me. It was like, how many people would kill to write books for a living? Which is what I wanted to do more than anything. And here I am rushing to get to a staff meeting because it's paying well. Like this life is too short to be cutting short the things that you want to do to help you be better at what you do, you know, to go to some meeting. And so at some point you make the transition. But for me, the idea was as long as my sort of corporate work was supporting and facilitating me doing the other stuff, it was great. And then as soon as they were fighting for the same resources, I made that I made that shift. But I think some people think that it's it's about this sort of bold,

• 32:41Speaker 02

  burn the boats behind you thing. And it can be. I mean, at some point you do have to do that. But I talked to people and they're like, they're quitting their job to write a book, but they haven't published a single thing online. They haven't uploaded a single video, you know, and. Just start, just start. You can start way smaller than you think. And the first thing that you put out there in the world should not be a screenplay or a book or whatever. Like you, you need, you need so much interaction with the audience to find out what they like, what you like, what resonates, what, you know? I, I wrote online every day for something like six years before I got paid a single dollar.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  I started my first website in the summer of 2005 and my first book came out in the summer of 2012. You know, I didn't hit the New York Times bestseller list for another five years after that. It takes a long time. There's a, there's a great law. It's called Hofstadter's Law and it says that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take this law into account, right? Like it's, it's going to take way longer than you thought. And so if you quit in this sort of dramatic gesture, you know, you're not, you're not going to have the runway to pull it off, right? You need like a lot of runway, a lot of time. And so that, that was certainly my path is that it took a lot longer than I thought.

• 34:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad you raised that. And I love that tracking back of your journey just now. And that law is awesome because it's, it's so true when it comes to anything in life. And for me, I, I always say that to people because obviously I've been creating online work for seven years now and that feels like a very short period of time for most people.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:22Jay Shetty?

  But I'm like, no, well, for 10 years before these seven years, I did this multiple times a week offline to groups of five to 10 people for three hours, four times a week, three times a week, spending time with people, coaching, mentoring, working for no money, for no followers, for no fame, no, no success. And then on top of that, did seven years of public speaking training before that, which my parents forced me to go to after the event that I told you about in the beginning, from age 11 to age 18. So my public speaking communication journey started at 11. I'm 35 today. That's 24 years of

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:00Jay Shetty?

  repetition.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, you need a lot of reps. You need way more reps than you think that you do. And the amazing thing about what social media and the internet does is that you can reach millions of people with your work. The nefarious thing about it is we hear about someone who uploads their first thing and blows up, and we think that that's how it goes, right? And it doesn't. It takes a long time. And I think what you're trying to do is build, you know what a flywheel is? Like, you're trying to, you're trying to build this thing. It takes a long, a large number of slow, methodical turns before it speeds up and speeds up and speeds up. And then it starts to really spin and spin stuff off. It takes like a long, a long time.

• 35:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  You know, when The Obstacle is the Way came out, it probably sold 3,000 copies its first week, you know? It's now sold millions of copies, but that's where it started, right? And it took a long time. And so when people look at this sort of algorithmic success, where they just upload a video and it does millions and millions of views, they think that that's how it's gonna go. And really, it's about sort of methodically building this audience, person by person, and also building your competence, like rep by rep, you know, moment by moment. So then when you, you suddenly do get the audience, you're actually ready for it. Like, if I had gotten the audience that I thought I wanted or deserved when I wanted it, it would have been, it would have been preposterous. Yeah.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  I remember, I was actually just thinking about this because I was just doing the marketing for Daily Dad, and I was in New York, and I did The Daily Show, and I did CBS Sunday Morning, and I did some, I did a bunch of shows. And I remember thinking back when my first book came out in 2012. They had, the, the publicist had me put together a list of all of these outlets that I wanted to do. And I don't think we got any of them, right? It's not that they did a bad job, it's just like, we didn't get any of the things, is I wasn't ready, and the media didn't care. And then I realized, like, on this launch, I did get those things. But it took more than 10 years longer than I thought it would take, right? And now I'm getting it. But if I had gotten them then, I wouldn't have been ready. I wouldn't have been able to actually deliver, you know, on those at bats.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  And so you think you want it when you want it, but you don't.

• 37:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  You know? I think, I heard something about the early days of Google where they were like, "Eventually, everyone's gonna try our product." But- If they all try it now, we won't be able to deliver for them. They knew that they they knew it was getting better every day. So actually, from a marketing and a promotions and a sort of trajectory standpoint, they wanted to to backload it as much as possible, not frontload it. And that can be really hard. That requires so much discipline and so much patience to go, actually, I don't want this right now. I want it when I'm ready. I want it when I'm good enough. You think you're being screwed. You think, you know, other people are getting the shots that you deserve. But it's actually for the best because you're getting better every single day.

• 37:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  And so I think about that, of course, with having kids too. Like if I'd had kids when I earlier, I wouldn't have been emotionally ready, you know, like so it's it's patience is is all.

• 38:09Jay Shetty?

  And that's the hard part about patience, right? Because I think there's those two sides of the coin where one's like, I believe I deserve it, which we hear a lot about, and I want to dive into that with you. And then the other side of it is the mentality of, well, no, I'm going to be patient and I'll be better when I get it.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:26Jay Shetty?

  And it's almost like, how does someone reconcile those two things? Because I think everyone's told to like, believe in themselves and like, know your worth and kind of do this thing. And I'm more along the lines of you because so many things for me happened far more organically than by belief. And they happened far more by action than they did by thinking something. For me, it was what you're saying, like when you first came on my show at HuffPost, it's like I went from having, I was live every single day with a guest for nine months, five days a week. And then I did the Nasdaq thing where I was live when I was connected to great authors like yourself and other people that I could have on.

• 39:05Jay Shetty?

  So I, before I launched my podcast in 2019, I'd done at least like two years of being live every day. And no one, like that show wasn't big or or, you know, it was it was good. It was good, definitely, but it wasn't what the podcast is today. And it was just like, but I got two years of reps of doing interviews.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I was telling you, like, the caliber of guests that you've been pulling on have been insane, right? Like, you've been getting people that don't do podcasts, right? And so I'm sure some of them you have tried to get on for a while. And you would have been very excited to get them in 2019 or 2020 or six months ago. But you're better now, right? So you think you think that you want it when you want it, but. Uh, it's better to get it later because you'll be better later.

• 39:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Right? And, and the, the, the patience and the confidence to be like, I don't have to force it. There's that expression like, don't run to catch trains. You know, it's like, uh, there's something in that, like you don't need to force it. If it, if it's not a fit, it'll come back around, right? And, and, and the idea that I sometimes think that everything I've written so far, everything I've thought about is actually all prologue or preparation for an idea or a, uh, an idea in a moment in time that I can't even conceive of yet. Like, uh, you know, Michael Lewis, the author.

• 40:34Jay Shetty?

  I like that.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  He'd probably written fifteen books before The Big Short came out, right? When the markets melted down in two thousand eight, he had written dozens of popular books about finance, about sports, about, uh, you know, tech entrepreneurs. And then that moment happened and he was the person to write that book, which sold millions of copies, was turned into a huge movie. That was when the man and the moment met, right? And I think Churchill said something about like, you know, there comes this time in everyone's life where, you know, destiny taps you on the shoulder and he says, it would be a shame if you weren't ready when that happened. And so, you know, everyone thinks they're ready and they want it now, but you actually, you don't know what the future holds.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  And, and so just this sense that like, every day I get a little bit better. I work on it all the time. Uh, I'm putting in my reps, I'm following my process, I'm, you know, putting in the hours. And I have this, maybe it's a little delusional, but I just have this vague sense that there's a thing that I haven't even thought of yet. And that will be the best thing that I do.

• 41:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  And that kind of keeps me going.

• 41:42Jay Shetty?

  What a beautiful way to live. That, that's spectacular. And, and at one point I remember sitting with someone and he wasn't trying to teach me. He wasn't a mentor. He was just. I was sitting with him at a wedding and he was just telling stories of his life. And he had quite a fascinating life because of something that his dad did. And he used to just as a kid be following his, the Daily Dad, like following his dad around.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:04Jay Shetty?

  And he was taking on crazy adventures and experiences as a little kid, just because his dad had a crazy job.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 42:10Jay Shetty?

  I used to listen to him and be like, wow, like this guy just has so many stories. They're not achievements, they're not like, I got an award or it wasn't like, oh, and then I became invited. It was just he had a great set of stories he was sharing. And I realized that, at one point, I realized that collecting experiences, collecting skills, collecting abilities, qualities was so much more of a better pursuit. And I look at that, what you just said, for me today, it's like, I chose to be a monk without knowing what it was. Before that, I went to public speaking school because my parents forced me to go. Not knowing that, I never said, oh, I really want to be a public speaker at eleven years old. And then I went into the world of Accenture and learned about business and strategy, which was very, very useful.

• 42:53Jay Shetty?

  And like, today I put all those three things together.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 42:56Jay Shetty?

  And my career is based off all three of those experiences, but I could never have known that. And it goes back to that famous Steve Jobs statement of you can always connect the dots. You can't connect the dots moving forward, you only can looking backward.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:10Jay Shetty?

  And so when you're living, it's almost like collect experiences and skills and abilities and relationships. When I was interviewing you all those years ago, I would never have known that we would still be friends and

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 43:21Jay Shetty?

  would connect and support each other. You've supported my books. But it's that you're just collecting that connection and relationship, if that makes sense.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of my mentors, the writer Robert Greene, he said, one of the great things about being a writer is that it's all material. That everything that happens to you is material. And so if you just go through your life going, hey, I don't know why I got dumped here. I don't know why my house flooded. I don't know why any of this stuff happened to me. But I'm going to choose it as, I'm going to choose to see it as something that's happening for me as an artist, a leader, a parent, a spouse, that this is teaching me something, right? When we, when we say that the obstacle is the way, it's not that. That, hey, this thing happened and now as a result, your business is 10x better off.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  Right? Like it, it, sometimes your shit happens, bad shit happens, but you learned from it. Or it, it forced you to grow in some way. Just the sheer hanging on-ness of it made you stronger and better, right? It's not, it's not that, hey, there's this magical, you know, opportunity in this that there's this just slightly secret silver lining and then everything's awesome. No, it's, it's much deeper than that.

• 44:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  It's that the stuff that happens is shaping you and forming you and, and giving you opportunities to, you know, evolve as a human being. That's, that's what that idea is. And so, you know, there are things that I've gone through in my life that end up shaping my writing for things that I don't even know, I didn't know until I sat down that day that that would come back out. Right? And so it's just this, yeah, it's this process of accumulating experiences, accumulating insights, accumulating, you know, things that you've read and then it all funnels ultimately into the work.

• 45:12Jay Shetty?

  And what a great way to live, knowing that your best work is still ahead of you.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hope so. I mean, maybe not, right? Maybe not.

• 45:18Jay Shetty?

  I believe it. I believe it for you. I believe for me. I think that's a great way to live and think.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 45:23Jay Shetty?

  Your best work doesn't have to be your most successful work. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I, I'm just saying that's, that's how I get up every day is that I think, hey, I'm, there is this thing in the future. Maybe I won't be ready for it. Maybe I won't be around, but I, I, I like to think that it's all building towards some.

• 45:39Jay Shetty?

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• 46:24Jay Shetty?

  Visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. This episode is brought to you by Orange Theory Fitness. One of the best investments you can make is in your own strength. The choices you make today can help shape how you feel for years to come. Orange Theory Fitness provides a one-hour workout to build strength, burn fat, and build muscle with an expert coach guiding you every step of the way. Head to orangetheory.com/onpurpose to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage and studio for details. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market.

• 47:06Jay Shetty?

  If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. Yeah, yeah, and I feel like when I look back at some sages in, you know, the Vedic tradition and even in the Hindu tradition,

• 47:47Jay Shetty?

  there were these amazing people that excavated temples, like old sites that historical things had happened at.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:58Jay Shetty?

  But no one really knew about it, so no one would really visit. But today, 500 to 1,000 years later,

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 48:06Jay Shetty?

  pilgrims visit these places.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:08Jay Shetty?

  And they did that believing and knowing that one day this place will be of significance, but not maybe in my lifetime.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:16Jay Shetty?

  And so they were able to fast-forward their service in one sense, or their passion, knowing that one day this will serve others, one day this will mean something to people, even if it doesn't right now, even if it's seen as valueless right now.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  No, it's it's kind of beautiful to go through life and go like, hey, somebody planted this tree.

• 48:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Built this road, somebody created this institution, somebody fought for a very specific way of setting it up or thinking about it. Somebody went to prison over this, right? Somebody crossed the, like, all of us are the the lucky recipients of investments that people made a long time ago. And there's this Christian idea, like, you've been given a free gift, so you have to give freely yourself. And the idea that, like, yeah, we are the, we in the present are living in a future that other people dreamed of, right? And so how, what is it that that you are contributing to the the next future, right? What trees are you planting? What difference are you making? What work are you creating?

• 49:19Speaker 02

  And again, like, yeah, you're writing this book and you hope it sells now, but maybe it sells 500 years from now. Maybe it's rediscovered then, like, the we we consume works of art that were totally obscure or unappreciated in their own time that that we came back around to. And so the idea of of owing the future something, I think, is a really beautiful idea. There's that that quote, like, the world is great when old men plant trees in whose shade they'll never know. And what about you, right? Like, what what have you planted? What if what are you contributing? What are you giving away is is a is a way to measure your own life.

• 49:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. One of the chapters that stuck up from your book that I loved is called, wait, yeah, I wanted to pick it up. Oh, yeah, raise a reader.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:08Jay Shetty?

  And it's and it stuck with me because I was a kid who never liked reading until 14, and now I consider myself

• 50:19Jay Shetty?

  like a voracious reader. I absolutely, it's my favorite way of learning. And I realized it was because school always gave us fiction books. And so we'd get storybooks, and a big one we'd get a lot of was Goosebumps.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:32Jay Shetty?

  And then you'd read Roald Dahl and you'd read, you know, these incredible authors, but fiction just never resonated with me. And I remember it took my dad giving me like a biography or an autobiography that triggered it. And I remembered my first ever books that I got really into were David Beckham's autobiography, Dwayne The Rock Johnson, when he was a wrestler's autobiography, and then the biography of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. And so it was really interesting to me how my parents wanted to raise a reader, but it took them a long time to understand what that meant. How are you raising readers and what does that mean to you and why is that important?

• 51:13Speaker 02

  It is strange. I think one of the things that gets in the way of people falling in love with books is that there's kind of a snootiness in it. There's this sense that there's literature and then there's all these other books. It's weird that we tell high schoolers that they should read these sort of artistic novels and that this is what literature is. And then they go, well, I didn't like The Great Gatsby, which is an incredible book. I didn't like Grapes of Wrath, so I'm not a reader. Meanwhile, there's all these books about what it's like to be a teenager. There's books, there's memoirs from athletes. There's all these awesome things that they would actually, that would actually reach them and speak to them that could sort of inculcate that, that identity of being a reader.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  And so like with, with my, with my oldest son who's six, like we don't read the books that I like, that I think he would be into. We read books about Minecraft because he's obsessed with video games. And like, to me, this is like barely a book, but you know, but to him, it, it's, it's a way to learn more about this thing that he's interested in, which is what reading is. And they, they've done this interesting study of, of kids reading. Like, if you remember as a kid, you know, you'd have to read some like essay or short story or whatever. And this is how they would test your reading comprehension. Well, they found that if they gave kids, say, a paragraph about baseball, they would read it much better than if they gave them some weird story about like some girl with a cookie or something, right?

• 52:40Speaker 02

  And what they were finding is that when the kids knew what they were reading about or interested in it, they would, it would resonate with them more. I just don't like the idea that we exclude people from this amazing, wonderful thing that is reading. You see this even in publishing where like physical books are considered higher than audiobooks and ebooks. And

• 53:04Speaker 02

  I personally don't read audiobooks and I don't like reading eBooks. I'm a physical book person, but all I want is for people to read, right? Like, I want them to consume it in whatever medium they want to consume things in.

• 53:18Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  And so just meeting people where they are, to me, is the main way that you raise readers. And it's, uh, we just get in our own way on these things. Like, I've read so many books even since I, since I've gotten older, like, about where I grew up. And I'm like, why didn't anyone tell me that? Like, Joan Didion is from the same town that I grew up in. And nobody told me that, right? I had to read these other novels that were, that didn't resonate with me. But if I, this lady was from where I'm from, that would have resonated with me at such a deeper level, right? And I try to think about, what does a person want to learn? What do they have a problem with? How do, how do we find a book that solves that problem? Because that's when the light bulb flips, when a book solves a problem for you.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Or there's an ROI to it, right? That's what lights it up. And then maybe you'll go read something that's purely artistic and doesn't have any of that. But you really got to find where the book does something for someone.

• 54:16Jay Shetty?

  I'm so glad you brought that up because I think a lot of people ask me, like, Jay, what should I read? Like, and, and my number one question to them is, what are you struggling with? Like, that's the question I love to ask back. And I say, I, I can recommend a lot of books, but what are you struggling with? And I find that that's often where someone gets stumped, where that's not necessarily how they've been trained to look for reading. We've been trained to look for, in terms of entertainment, which is great, and I have nothing against that. Or we've been trained to be like, oh, it's the smart thing to do. Or like, that's what, what, like you're saying, this elitist mindset of if you're reading, then you're thoughtful, which I don't subscribe to at all.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:50Jay Shetty?

  And so then you actually lose it. Like, for me, we were growing as a team. My company was growing over the last couple of years. So literally, all I've read is hiring books, culture books, leadership books. That's all I've been reading.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:02Jay Shetty?

  And it has been the best investment and it has solved so many problems. And it has solved so many challenges or mindsets I didn't have. And I think that's such, I'm sorry, I just want to highlight that point because I feel the same way that. If you're struggling to know what to read, look at what your challenge is, look at what your struggle is, look at what problem you're trying to solve, and you'll naturally be more inclined and immersed.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  It's important to realize that pretty much anything you're going through, someone has gone through before and written a book about. Maybe they succeeded and they wrote a book about their successes, or they failed and they wrote a book about their failures, right? There are almost no new human problems. People have been doing whatever it is that we're doing for thousands of years. And to not avail yourself of that knowledge is insane. General Mattis was a four-star general in the Marines. He was Secretary of Defense. Sort of this, he's known as this kind of warrior monk because he's not just this warfighter, but he's also this deeply thoughtful sort of student of his craft. And he pointed out, he points this out to like young soldiers.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  He says like, hey, people have been fighting on battlefields for as long as humans have existed. And the earliest literature is about this, right? You know, whether we're talking about Homer or Gilgamesh. You know, the idea that you would not avail yourself of the lessons they've learned, he's like, is insane. You know, he's like, the mistakes you're making cost people things. And so to make a mistake by trial and error that someone else has already gone through is reckless and irresponsible. And he has this great quote, I think about it all the time. He says, he says, if you haven't read hundreds of books about like what it is that you do, he said, you're functionally illiterate, right?

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Illiterate, not in the sense that you can't read, but illiterate in the sense that you haven't read. And it's the same thing, right? If you haven't read it, you don't know about it. And the fact that you could is irrelevant. What matters is have you read about this? And so just realizing whether it's parenting or starting a business or, you know, being successful or creating social change, like people have been through this a long time and they have really thoughtful things to say about it. And to not avail yourself of that knowledge, just go, I'll figure it out on my own, is not only inefficient.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  But it's irresponsible, right? Like, you could have succeeded earlier. You could have had the impact earlier. You could have saved yourself going down this road or that road. But you didn't because you thought you were too smart. Epictetus says, you know, it's impossible to learn that which you think you already know. And so part of reading is also the idea of humility. The idea of like, I don't know about this. I want to know about this. Somebody knows more about me, more about this than me. That's the mindset of a reader that you want to cultivate. And, and we, we think about this with our kids, like, they'll ask us questions and we'll like, kind of know the answer. And we'll start to answer and then we stop ourselves and we go, no, let's go find out about this together. Like, let's look this up. Like, there's this magical thing called Google.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  We can look it up, right? We can read a Wikipedia page about it. We can buy a book about it. I want to teach them the habit of, I'm curious about this. I want to go down the rabbit hole and figure it out. Just guessing or, uh, you know, half-assing it is, is not, is not the mindset that makes you so. You want to be the person that figures stuff out and is good at, it has the tools and the determination to figure stuff out. That's what you want your kids to have.

• 58:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And are your kids at school now?

• 58:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:53Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. So how are you, and they're going to a, like a, a regular national curriculum? Like, they're learning, they're learning the curriculum that they teach in the US.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. So like, with that kind of, like, how are you? I guess, I find that as parents, it's natural to want to save our kids from the mistakes we made.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:14Jay Shetty?

  Or protect them from the wrong turns we took. I would love to hear your philosophy or your thoughts or your approach right now, especially with The Daily Dad on, how are you doing that? Or are you trying to limit your projection onto them? Like, how do you deal with them as fresh humans? But then also your thoughts around the world and how school works? And how, how do you navigate the fact that? You can always think you know what's right for your kids, but most of what you think is what is right for them is based on what you think was wrong for you.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. I mean, I heard an interview with Brian Grazer once, the movie producer.

• 59:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  And

• 59:49Jay Shetty?

  He's been on the pod.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  He's dyslexic, right? And that dyslexia shaped him and formed him into being this brilliant, creative, you know, sort of producer and cultivator of talent. And so someone asked like, well, would you want your kids to go through it? It was so formative and shaping you. And he was like, are you out of your mind? So there is this sense that the struggles we went through, if we can spare our kids them, that's great. And then at the same time, we also understand that if you spare your kids all trouble and all difficulty, they become very fragile. And so it's this kind of tension between, you know, I sort of say like, you want your kids' life to be good, but not easy, right? Like, so where you can prevent needless suffering

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  or struggle or pain you want to. And then at the same time, if you do everything for them, you're actually making life so much harder for them. So that's why I like this idea of like, hey, if they think that they can just come to me for all answers, they're not developing the ability to figure stuff out for themselves. So what I want to do is model. Like, I may already know the answer. I may already think I know the answer, but I want to figure it out with them together. That's what we want to do. And I sort of think about that as a general parenting philosophy.

• 1:01:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I like, I like what you're saying there because I think it applies in coaching. It applies in mentorship. It applies in a relationship, like doing things for other people often feels like love.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Jay Shetty?

  But actually, it isn't love because it dehabilitates them from learning how to do it. And therefore, doing things with people is better than doing things for people. I, if you were to be like, I don't know how far the moon is from planet Earth, and you went and checked it on your phone and then just told your kid the answer, is different to saying, hey, let's both sit down on Google and let's look at the moon and then look at Jupiter and Saturn and let's look at the entire, you know, solar system and, right? That's what I'm, yeah.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:01:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, you want to show them how to figure it out for themselves. You want to equip them with the tools. To do it because you're not always going to be there to do it for them.

• 1:01:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  Like they, there's, um, there's helicopter parenting. People know about that. And there's this also, this one they talk about is called snowplow parenting. And snowplow parenting is going ahead of your kid and clearing all obstacles and difficulties out of their path, which again feels like a form of love. And yet it's also quite cruel because eventually you won't be there and they will have to experience those obstacles. And if they haven't built the skills or the strength or the confidence, the sense of self that says, I'm a person that knows how to solve problems, they're going to be in serious trouble.

• 1:02:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and that's, that must be so hard. I'm not a parent, so that must be so hard. Because when you see this innocent adorable kid and they're going through some pain or challenge in it, and you want to give them the skills of how to solve their own problems, which I do believe is, problem, if we, if we had to debate it out, it's probably the most useful skill of all time is how do you solve any problem?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Well, I was thinking about this recently. There, the, there's this singer, Morgan Wade, and she has this new song and, and there's a lyric in it. She says something like, all of your dreams are a parent's fears. And if you think about your own life, right? All of the things that are good in your life came from risks that you took. Like for me, it was dropping out of college, you know, um, my wife and I, you know, we got together super early. We moved in, we, we did things that in retrospect were crazy and people probably thought were bad ideas. Um, I made career decisions that were crazy. I, I did all these risks and I wouldn't be here without the risks. And so one of the things that's hard as a parent is realizing that like more than anything, what you want is for your kid to be safe, right?

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  And so there's almost this inherent conflict.

• 1:03:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Right? Like a person wants to be happy and fulfilled and do cool things. And a parent wants nothing bad to happen ever.

• 1:03:59Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Right? And the ability to, to realize that there is a tension there, that the thing you want more than anything will ultimately smother and deprive them of the thing that they want more than anything. It's all of it. Like when I dropped out of, out of college, you know, my parents took it really badly. Like it crushed them. You know, they'd worked so hard. I think so much wrongly of their identity was tied up in my sister and I's success. And they didn't want to be the parents that had a kid that dropped out of college. Cause that's weird at, you know, a party or something to talk about. And maybe it was a bad decision. Maybe it ended up working out, but maybe it was a bad decision. And, and so I, I did it.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  But then immediately after, a bunch of really bad stuff happened. Like it ended up being way harder than I thought for a bunch of reasons. And what I really needed then was parents, right? And so my parents worried that I was doing this thing that was dangerous, didn't support me doing it. And then they weren't there when I needed their actual support, right? And so it's, it's understanding that like what you, what you need to do is not like be right about stuff. Or get your way, but to sort of show them that you're there for them, whatever happens. And that maybe that's a way that you cut through this tension of like, we don't want them to do anything that's dangerous.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  But if your fear of that pushes them away, then when they are in danger, they're not going to come to you, right? And that's what you should fear more than anything. I, um, I interviewed this guy's name was Dave Carey. He's Captain Dave Carey. He was a POW in Vietnam. And, um, he said something to me that I think about now all the time as a parent. He said, "The goal of every conversation as a parent is to get to have the next conversation." Right? And I think about that in life and business. It should, it's almost like every decision you make. It's, it's, "Am I closing doors here? Am I burning bridges behind me? Am I shutting things down? Or am I keeping things open?" Right? Life is about options. How many options do you have?

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  And just, just realizing like, hey, this conflict, this disagreement, this tension, you know, the main thing that you're going to want with your kids in the future is that relationship. And nothing is more important than that. And so I think about that all the time.

• 1:06:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, I mean, reflecting on what you're saying. I feel like that was something that was so like my parents, when when I did decide to become a monkey, it was like that was uncomfortable for them.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:06:33Jay Shetty?

  I never went to my graduation ceremony. I graduated, but never went to have the picture taken. And that was a big thing because everyone's house we'd go to, they've had pictures of their kids, you know, with their little scroll and the hat and all the rest of it. And but it was the same. It was they didn't support it and they didn't block me.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Jay Shetty?

  And then when I failed at it, or when it all ended, they were there to catch me. I moved back in with them.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Jay Shetty?

  And those two statements you put, two of the chapters in the book are always be a fan and love unconditionally. And I was reflecting on those and I was like, I think my parents have always loved unconditionally. Like, they've been able to have this relationship with me where, yeah, I I would totally give them credit for that, where they never let me feel like they weren't there for me, regardless of even if my choices were totally against theirs. And I respect them a lot for that because it I've made it hard.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  No, no, it's beautiful. And kids do make it hard, right? And it's it's gonna be a challenge. There's this, there's a story about Jim Villavano, the basketball coach. He realizes at like ten or twelve or thirteen or whatever, they wants to be a basketball coach. And he tells his dad, he says, I'm gonna, I want to be a college basketball coach. And he goes, okay. And then the next day, his dad calls him in into his bedroom. And he says, you know, what's going on? And the dad says, see that suitcase? And the son says, yeah. And he says, it's packed. And and he says, why? And he says, it's packed for when you coach in the final four, you know, and this idea of like, your kid has this dream. And you don't judge it, you don't tell them that it's unrealistic, you don't tell them

• 1:08:17Speaker 02

  it's crazy, you don't let them know how hard it's gonna be. You also don't take it over and say, well, here's what you're gonna need to do. You just go, I'm rooting for you, is is a beautiful thing. And Too much of the love that parents have or the support is conditional on whether it's going well, whether it's socially acceptable, whether it's understandable or not, you know. I think a lot of parents want their kids to be doctors and lawyers because they know what doctors and lawyers are, right? And social media manager sounds made up, right? Even if one pays better than the other, even if one is what lights the kid up and they hate the other thing, they just want it.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  This desire to understand gets in the way of just support, which is really what it comes down to, this sense that, hey, these people, these people believe in me.

• 1:09:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  These people really believe.

• 1:09:17Jay Shetty?

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• 1:11:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and I feel like with my parents, I probably had more of a neutral relationship way. I wouldn't say they were believing in me or rooting for me. But they weren't putting it down.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:35Jay Shetty?

  And so it was more a bit like...

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Let's start there.

• 1:11:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You make your decisions and whatever. Like, it's not like we believe in you and it's gonna be great. And it's not like we're trying to hold you back. I think a lot of us today, though, and I think the difference for me was I had such conviction, and I always have when I've made my choices. And it sounds like you did too, obviously, in the way you described it, where I didn't really care what anyone thought, and I still kind of am that way. Like, I'm like, whatever, I'm gonna do what I want anyway. And I think a lot of people like want their parents to like root for them. And I hear this a lot where they're like, people say to me like, Jay, like, my parents don't believe in me, and like, no one's like encouraging me and not supporting me. What do I do in that situation? And so it's interesting, because we also have that inbuilt desire for our parents to root for us. But as in your case, and as in many others,

• 1:12:20Jay Shetty?

  and even in mine, in a different way, your parents aren't gonna be your biggest cheerleaders all the time. And most of us didn't have that experience. So while you're trying to be a dad who is unconditional and a fan, you didn't get that, and majority of people in the world didn't get that. So how...

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  No can screw you up. I remember I was in business with someone, and he was doing something kind of crazy. I forget what it was. But someone brought up, I was like, why is he like this? And he goes, if you just translate everything he's saying into daddy, daddy, look at me, it all makes sense. And you realize this person didn't get kind of approval or attention from their parents. And it drove them to be successful in business, but it also made them a liability in business. Because they weren't dealing with the situation at hand. They were dealing with this sort of unfulfilled, unmet desire to get attention, to be recognized. And that's a really, that's a really dangerous thing, you know? And I think at the core of it, a good...

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Number of men are just motivated by wanting their dad to be proud of them. And the sooner you realize that if your dad wasn't proud of you at the beginning, no amount of success is going to make you feel that later, right? I do think there's this great quote from Marcus Aurelius that is a really important piece of parenting advice that I try to think about. He says, you know, things are not asking to be judged by you. And he says, remember, you always have the power of having no opinion. So being a fan, being a supporter, being a cheerleader, that's where you want to get as a parent. But what if you just started by not having an opinion?

• 1:13:59Speaker 02

  Like, your kid is your kid, and they're going to do what they want to do, and they're going to be who they are. The fewer opinions you have about that, the better your relationship is going to be.

• 1:14:12Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  You think back with your relationship with your parents and you think about the arguments that you had, the things you fought about, and how, in retrospect, how small those things seem and how little they mattered. Because what matters now is that there is the relationship, right? What matters is that there's still the affection and the feeling and that you spend time together. And yet, there were moments where it seemed like they were willing to trade that to enforce some arbitrary rule or some cultural norm or, you know, force you into some box that they had for you. And the fewer opinions you have, the better, I think, as a parent. Like, your kid likes this video game.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  The fact that you think video games are dumb is an opinion you don't need to have.

• 1:15:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, keep it to yourself, yeah. And how do you deal with it on the other side? Like, I find that, I'm sure a lot of people listening, they're like, I wish my parents had that mindset, right? Because they didn't. But then how do you still live a meaningful, fulfilling life? Because so much of who we are is wrapped up in this entire relationship. And you find, as you said, we are like, I'm going to do my own thing because I want to control my life, but we're still controlled by the expectation of being successful because our parents want us to be successful. So we're still trying to prove them wrong or right. And so how do you kind of, what do you do in that scenario where someone's lived a life and they're like, well, I'm kind of like you, Ryan, where... My parents weren't my number one fan.

• 1:15:44Jay Shetty?

  I didn't have unconditional love. They don't support me and I still find myself trying to impress them all the time.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's realizing that if you didn't get it, you're never gonna get it. And to try to, to try to continue to get a thing that you're never gonna get is a fool's errand, right? And that you have to figure out why you want to do what you want to do and what's important to you, right? And that, have you ever done any inner child work?

• 1:16:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, you realize, oh, hey, like, my parents weren't what I needed to be to this 14 year old. But I need to be what that 14 year old needed. Or I'm gonna go through the world as a 14 year old. And it's not appropriate for a 14 year old to be in this meeting or in this conversation or to be, you know, operating at this level. You know, you have to re, sort of re-parent that inner child or it's gonna pop out totally inappropriate at times and places. And I think one of the beautiful things about having kids is it does give you a sense of who you were, right? You, you don't really remember what it's like to be four and then you have a four year old and you go, oh, this is what I needed as a four year old.

• 1:16:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  And so I can't go back in time and give that to my four year old self, but I can do a better job for this four year old. We dropped my four year old off at camp yesterday and he really didn't want to go. He was really struggling, he was really upset and he was sort of having this anxiety attack. He was struggling, he was crying. And, um, and, and so ultimately after like 30 minutes, this is dragged on and 30 minutes, 45 minutes going and he's getting more and more upset. And then we, without even talking about it, we just decided he didn't need to go. And as, as my wife got back in the car and we're driving him back to our house and we're gonna, you know, just have a fun day or whatever. All I said was, I think we both know. That our parents would have handled this differently.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  And, you know, they would have forced it, right? And, and the idea that, hey, it's an opportunity to do things differently. To stop certain cycles, right? To turn over new leaves, to just, to just do it a better way.

• 1:18:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  And that, that is not only your obligation, but it's also healing for yourself. To go, oh, this is what I needed then. And you can't go back in time, but you can write a better future.

• 1:18:16Jay Shetty?

  What gave you the intuition in that moment for you specifically to know whether to push them to go to camp or where you were like, no, actually? Because I, I remember as a kid, I used to get a lot of those anxiety attacks as, as a young kid. And I remember even when I was going to high school, I had to take exams to get into certain high schools that my parents wanted me to go to. And I remember like just being so stressed at that time with like going to these entrance examinations, you don't know anyone there and you're sitting in this hall and you're doing exams at 11 years old, 10 years old to get into this 11 plus school and whatever. And I remember feeling that way and there were times when my parents were like, it's okay. And there were times when I was pushed through and

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:18:57Jay Shetty?

  Obviously, I only, I only personally remembered the ones where I was pushed through that worked out.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Jay Shetty?

  Uh, but naturally there are lots of kids in the world who only remember the times when their parents should have let them pull out and they didn't.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Jay Shetty?

  So how did you at least for yourself reconcile that in a moment like that? Because I'm sure sometimes you're like, no, pushing through is good and, you know, you're not.

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Stoics say one of the most dangerous things we can do is extrapolate, right? Cause it takes us out of the moment we're in and then we're thinking, well, what if it happens again? And what if it happens again? And what if it happens again? And then all of a sudden you're living in this future where if you let this thing happen over and over and over again, your kid is utterly incapable of doing anything for themselves. And just going, hey, what does one day of camp actually matter? Right? What is, uh, what, what is? What is actually at stake here?

• 1:19:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  And you realize that almost nothing is at stake, right?

• 1:19:45Jay Shetty?

  Great answer.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  You know, like, your kid's throwing a temper tantrum and you go, this is not an appropriate way to act. I don't want to raise a kid that throws temper tantrums. I don't want to raise a kid that can't have. And, and you realize that you're not even thinking about your kid anymore. You're thinking about you.

• 1:19:59Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  And, and what you should be thinking about is, oh, wait, we forgot to have lunch, right? Or, oh, wait, they're tired. Oh, wait, they're coming down with something. And you realize, oh, this is an individual instance. It is not a reflection of their trajectory as a human being. And, and being able to do that to anyone in life is really power. It's an incredible gift to be able to look at the moment you're in as not much more than a moment that you are in is, is an incredible thing to do for yourself and them. I, I struggle with that even as a writer. Obviously, discipline is important. Commitment is important. Routine is important. But then you have kids and you're in this world of unavoidable reality

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  and you have to go, I can't do what I wanted to do today. That doesn't mean the wheels are going to come off and everything is going to collapse. You have to go, okay, you know? And, and just that sort of acceptance.

• 1:20:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:54Speaker 02

  And, and to go, this is a singular instance. No more, no less. I'm just going to do what we need to do. And, and, and when I think about things that have gone really haywire with our kids or in my life, it's because I wasn't in that moment. I was in whatever. I was extrapolating that moment to mean if it happened over and over and over again.

• 1:21:16Jay Shetty?

  It's a brilliant answer. I love that. That, that resonates so strongly with me because I think we, you're so right. We just take one moment to be so predictive.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Jay Shetty?

  Of their entire future. Like, if I let him quit camp today, then he's going to quit this.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  If I let people talk to me this way.

• 1:21:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Then I'm just going to be this person that gets pushed around. And you're like, this is one poorly written email. This, it, it doesn't mean anything more than that.

• 1:21:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  And, and that you can just let, like, let it go.

• 1:21:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  Now, obviously, if you're doing that all the time for everything, you can get in trouble too. But, but just going, yeah, this is, this is not that big a deal.

• 1:21:51Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  I, I, that's a question I try to ask myself all the time. Does this actually matter? Or do I just think that it matters? Is my, is, is what other people think? You know, informing whether I think this matters or not. Do I actually care about this? And then that just turns down the volume, which is really what you need the most. You just need to turn down the volume.

• 1:22:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's my favorite one. Disconnecting from, if I ever get worked up about something or riled up about something, it's because I've let the opinions of others become

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Jay Shetty?

  a lens through which I'm seeing the significance of something.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Well, one of the really screwed up parts about having a kid, and I was just talking to someone who has a, like a six week old. So you get your kid, take them home from the hospital, and then you have to take them to their first pediatrician visit. And then you do this a bunch of times in their first year. And you take them to the pediatrician, and the first thing they do is they weigh them and they measure them, right? And then they give you these numbers. They go, your kid is eightieth percentile in height and fortieth percentile in weight. And they, and their head sizes, the sixteenth percentile. They, the first thing that happens when you have a kid is they tell you mathematically where your kid measures up against other kids. And it's like this the whole way.

• 1:23:03Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  They should be walking by this age. They should be, uh, reading by this age, riding a bike by this age. And so you have this data, like, if, if you didn't know how other people were doing, you wouldn't care. But because they told you, then you, you want to win that game. And the game is the size of your kid's head, which you have no ability to influence whatsoever. I mean, yeah, you want to know, hey, your kid is dangerously, you know, uh, underweight and maybe malnourished. But it's usually, it's like, oh, they're eighty seven percent in weight and not ninety four, you know, like? And all of a sudden, you're thinking as a kid, you're thinking back to when you were a kid and you're like, well, I want to get an A and so anything above ninety, you know? And, and so it's, it starts at the very beginning,

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  this sort of comparison game. And the less, if you knew less, you would be much more relaxed and much more kind to them and yourself. And it's important to remember that you're not raising an average kid. You're raising your kid. You're not raising a kid on a spectrum. You're raising this person that you were getting, you were given, that has a unique set of DNA and a unique set of circumstances that you have some control over and a lot of things you don't have control over. And I think the more you can kind of tune out what other people are doing, like, my wife and I were, like, concerned that

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  This kid we know who was born like the same day as my son, like he's riding a bike. And my son can't ride a bike. And we're like, are we screwing up? Are we holding back? Are we bad as parents? And then we were talking to them and they were concerned that their son couldn't swim. And ours can swim like a fish. And you just realize, oh, yeah, it's all, it probably has nothing to do with anyone. It's just one of them is naturally disposed to swimming and the other has some brain that makes biking. And if we didn't know that, that some kids were doing this and some kids were doing this, we would just be like, well, they'll learn it eventually. Right? And so I think, of course, you do, it is important to benchmark and know generally when stuff's supposed to happen.

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  But just so much of this information, it's only there to make you feel inferior or insecure or alarmed. And that's not going to make you a better parent.

• 1:25:25Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm. Absolutely. I mean, I'm so glad you went there because I feel like that's the exact thing that's on everyone's mind. And I think it applies to everything from having kids to getting married, to being engaged, to moving in, to dating, to friends, to how much money you should have made by what age? Like, it, it just goes across the board. I wonder, I've spoken to a lot of people on the podcast about mom guilt.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Jay Shetty?

  To mothers. Dad guilt's a thing too. And, you know, as someone like you, who you said you've had a lot of successes before you became a dad. But at the same time, you're an ambitious, driven individual. I'm sure you know other dads who became dads before and after they've had success. Let's paint the scenario, which I think is a common scenario. Someone's trying to put food on the table. They're trying to take care of their family. They don't get to be there for bedtime every night. They don't get to go to the football game on the weekend. Like, they can't show up at all these places because of genuine reasons. How does that person be a present, loving dad? Or what does it look like for that scenario?

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  I do find moms are way harder on themselves than dads.

• 1:26:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:35Speaker 02

  And, and part of that is because dads, I think historically, have been judged on a much more generous or sliding, sliding scale.

• 1:26:44Jay Shetty?

  For sure.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  And so the fact that there is some dad guilt is, is in a sense a sign of progress. Right? That like, oh, hey, this is something that I am expected to be good at, to take seriously. And that. If I'm not good at it, someone's not just gonna handle it for me, right? I think the reason moms feel guilty is they they're like, there's no safety net. Like, I'm the final line of defense, right? And so I do feel that guilt sometimes, and I I see that as a sign that like, I'm I'm caring about it, right? Because you know who like, it's like, um, it would be wonderful if all parents were concerned that they weren't doing a good enough job. But the the fact is, there's a lot of parents that aren't thinking about it at all.

• 1:27:28Speaker 02

  They're they're not thinking about it because they're so convinced they're perfect. And they're not, or they just don't care that much. So it's good that you're it's good that you're insecure, that you're questioning yourself. And then just realize that other than that, other than the indicator of of prioritization, it's not actually helping you be a better parent, right? Whipping yourself, like, I I joke, like, your kids are gonna hit you enough. Like, you don't need to whip yourself on top of it, right? Be kind to yourself. And that that's a a great line from Center. He says, the the the sign that that philosophy is working in your life is that you're becoming a better friend to yourself.

• 1:28:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  And and so you should be a a good friend and parent to yourself. But there is this sense, I think, with dads that like, your job is to provide. And you go, I'm doing this all for my family.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  If you never see your family, are you really doing it for them, you know?

• 1:28:28Speaker 02

  Or or are you using your kids as an excuse to do this thing that you want to do, right? I'm not saying that providing isn't important and that you shouldn't try to be successful at work. I just I just think like, hey, uh, the thing your your kids want more than anything is you, right? That's what your family wants you. And so if you go, oh, I'm doing this for you. Did they want a new mountain bike? Or did they want to see their dad during daylight hours?

• 1:28:57Jay Shetty?

  Both, both.

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  But, but when they think back to their childhood, they're not gonna go, oh, I did have a lot of cool stuff. Right? Like, I never saw my parents, but I had a lot of cool stuff. Right? It worked out for me. They want you. And, and so how do you, how do you find that balance? I mean, what, when we talk about work-life balance, what we're talking, the reason that's so hard is we're talking about trade-offs. Like, that you can't have it all. And you're gonna have to say no to some things. One of the things that, that having kids changed for me is that it made it easier for me to say no. Because it illustrated the opportunity cost much more vividly. Right? Like, if I didn't have kids, if it was just me and my wife, or just me, you know,

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  I could always squeeze more stuff in. And I, I, I couldn't calculate or necessarily feel what it was costing me. But when you've promised your time to this little person who wants to wrestle, or go in the swimming pool, or play Legos, and then you're not able to be home because you agreed to some dumb conference call, or you let someone pick your brain, you feel that more.

• 1:30:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Right? You feel that more. The opportunity costs were always there. You just didn't feel it. Because it wasn't personified in a, in a heartbroken three-year-old. So it's helpful. It, it can, it can be really, really powerful. I have, I have this sign on the wall in my office that just says, no. And it's, it's between two pictures of my kids. And it's a reminder that when I'm saying yes, what I'm saying no to is A and B. And when I'm saying, uh, no, I'm saying yes to A and B. And realizing that, that.

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  Your fear of being rude or hurting someone's feelings. Well, you better get comfortable with that because you're gonna hurt, you're gonna, you're being rude to someone. You're letting somebody down, you're hurting someone's feelings. And should it be this stranger? Or should it be this person that you promised? You know, you were gonna be there for, or that you said is the most important thing in the world to you. Like, the calendar doesn't lie. You say, you say family is the, the most important thing to you. But what is your calendar show?

• 1:31:22Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm. I, I, I couldn't agree more. I always, I always said, the way you spend your money, the way you spend, spend your time and the way you spend your energy shows your values and priorities far more than what you say or think.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:35Jay Shetty?

  Because you're back, like what you spend money on is showing what you care about, what you do to make money shows what you care about. But what is your biggest fear or worst quality in you? That you are so scared of projecting onto your kids? Are you aware of that? You?

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think you have to be. I think, I think I've never been glad that I lost my temper. It's never made anything better. And so, you know, kids are frustrating. It's overwhelming.

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  The other, the other day, my, my son was in the car and he's sort of yelling and, and he's really upset. So I looked back and I'm like, what's happening? And my, my other son goes, you know, I think Jonesy's just really overstimulated right now. And I was like, wow, that's like amazing. You know, like, I was like, I wish, like, first off, I was proud because he obviously picked that up from us. But I was like, I wish I could have that kind of awareness. Because all I was thinking about is like, what is this noise? Right? And he's thinking, well, why is that person making that noise? And, and so, yeah, the things that you get upset with your kids about, uh, when you lose your temper, like. It's it's never stuff that you're like, that was okay. One percent of the time, it's like they ran away from you in a parking lot and you're so scared.

• 1:32:52Speaker 02

  Something could have happened and and you kind of need to get that across. But most of the time, it's it's nothing that matters. And yet you are telling them that it matters and you are telling them that they don't matter in a way that you would never want, right? And so I think I think for me, it's it's about temper. And and you know, how do you tame that? How do you keep it from exploding onto the people that you love? That's that's the struggle.

• 1:33:21Jay Shetty?

  What have you discovered in that part?

• 1:33:25Jay Shetty?

  Because it's hard, like you said, it's hard.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  It's really hard. It's really hard. My wife and I try to get good at going like, you're having trouble handling this right now. Why don't you step outside? Why don't you go for a walk like, or why don't you just let this go? You know what I mean? Like, why is it actually? Does it actually matter that pajamas get on by a certain time? Like, why are you forcing this thing? And I think oftentimes the frustration comes from when things are are being forced. And so stepping back is is usually the best way to do it. And then I also think like, look, people lose their temper. It's a fact of life. My parents lost their temper at me quite a bit. I don't ever remember them apologizing for it. Right? Which is something I try to do a lot.

• 1:34:12Speaker 02

  I try to go, hey, it's stressful for me at the airport. I'm trying to make sure that we all get to the place that we need to get by a certain time. So we can go on the vacation that, by the way, you want to go to more than me. Right? But I was just, I was stressed earlier, like, I wasn't in control of myself earlier. And I'm not proud of that. I don't like that. And that wasn't good. But I'm owning it now. And it didn't say anything about you. Right? And so the ability to, if you can, in the moment, go, hey, I'm overstimulated. I'm stressed. Can you do it later at least? If you can do it later, it's not as good, but it's still an improvement. And then can you take responsibility for your emotions?

• 1:34:53Speaker 02

  As opposed to dumping those emotions on someone else and then making them filter, you know, sort through them in therapy 20 years later.

• 1:35:00Jay Shetty?

  Right. And thank you so much for coming back on the show. Today's been, it's so great. It's so great. I feel like what I wanted to do today was talk about parenting, but also being a kid. Of parents who didn't read The Daily Dad. And what that feels like is an experience because you're trying to be a parent without having had parenting training. And one thing you said that is going to stay with me for a long time was, if you don't reparent your fourteen year old self, you're still a fourteen year old. And I think a lot of us can resonate with that statement very deeply. That there's an age that we feel we lived our toughest, worst year. And no one took care of that.

• 1:35:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:44Jay Shetty?

  Child or that teenager or whatever age it was. And that's something we all need to recommit to.

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, one of the struggles of of being a parent, you're trying to give stuff that you didn't necessarily get, right? And it's even harder for people who didn't have, you know, a dad or a mom or, you know, their dad or mom was an alcoholic, or you're trying to give things that you didn't get. But that's that's the obligation is to try to do a little bit better, right? To try to give them the things that you felt that you needed or wanted. That's the goal, right? Um, but yeah, you opened this, you said, you know, you're trying to heal. I do, if you leave those things unexplored or unaddressed, you're just passing them along. And that's, there has to be some point where you go, this stops with me.

• 1:36:31Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:32Speaker 02

  Right, like this is a beautiful Seneca line. He talks about how we can't choose our parents, but we can choose whose children we would like to be.

• 1:36:41Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:41Speaker 02

  And the idea that like biology doesn't have to be destiny, that it doesn't have to keep going the direction that it always went, that you can do it differently. That you can decide, hey, no, my my parenting heroes are these people. That I can borrow from these parents that had different tools than my parents. That had more patience, or wisdom, or insight, or empathy than my parents. And that I can, I can give that to my kids. That's, that's a beautiful thing.

• 1:37:11Jay Shetty?

  The book is called The Daily Dad. Three hundred and sixty-six meditations on parenting, love, and raising great kids. By Ryan Holiday. If you don't already, follow Ryan on Instagram, on YouTube, across social media. His podcast, of course, we named all the books earlier. Please go and follow him across all platforms. Ryan, anything else you want to share with the community over here?

• 1:37:32Speaker 02

  No, thanks for having me.

• 1:37:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, thanks for coming back, man. We look forward to it every time, so thank you. If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

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• 1:37:56Speaker 03

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• 1:38:13Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You start, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 1:38:17Speaker 03

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:38:20Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

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  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under seventeen, not a minute without parent.

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• 1:38:37Speaker 03

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