Robin Sharma: ON How To Release Your Toxic Beliefs & Getting Back To Your Higher Nature

On this episode of On Purpose, I sat down with Robin Sharma. Robin is considered to be one of the top 5 leadership experts in the world. His work is embraced by rock stars, royalty, billionaires and many celebrity CEOs. Robin believes the way you begin the day sets up the way the day unfolds and consistently having great mornings cascade into amazing days, build great weeks, quarters, months and years. Today he welcomes you to the 5:00am club! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:27Jay Shetty?

  and has won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick+ Awards than any other car brand as of July 2026. Visit www.iihs.org to learn more. A lot can happen when an accident doesn't. Visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process, and once something sells... Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you.

• 2:12Jay Shetty?

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• 2:40Robin Sharma?

  I've always had a fire in my belly. I've always wanted to serve. I've always wanted to optimize myself. But really, my life transformed when I discovered this 5:00 AM routine. And as you might know, I've been working with billionaires and, you know, many of the most successful people on the planet for over two decades. And one of the things, if not the single best thing that I've helped them with is dialing in their morning routine.

• 3:11Jay Shetty?

  Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for coming back to listen. I'm so grateful to have an incredible community like yourselves. And I'm so excited to share today's conversation with you. Today's guest is Robin Sharma, widely considered one of the top leadership and personal optimization coaches across the world. He's worked with Fortune 100 companies, worked with billionaires and sports superstars. Today, he's here to talk about his new book, The 5:00 AM Club, which is all about owning your morning and elevating your life. For me, he's been an inspiration from a distance for potentially over about 10 to 15 years. I've been reading his work, studying his life, and I'm so grateful that I get to sit with him today.

• 3:56Jay Shetty?

  Robin, thank you so much. It's really my pleasure and honor to have you in my home. Thank you.

• 4:01Robin Sharma?

  Jay, it's my pleasure and thank you for your generous words. And I have to congratulate you for your amazing success and impact on so many people.

• 4:10Jay Shetty?

  Thank you. I'm so grateful for that. So I'm so excited to talk about your new book today, The 5:00 AM Club. I love talking about the book because if you're watching at home, you're watching at work, wherever you are. If you like today's conversation, I really urge you to go and get the book. It's really a life's work put into a very small segment. But the question I want to start with today is, What was your morning routine before you joined and created the 5am Club?

• 4:36Robin Sharma?

  I don't think I've ever been asked that question. It's a great question. I still got up early. I've always studied the great women and men of the world and one thing they had in common, they were early risers. And so I didn't get up at 5 o'clock, but I was still an early riser. Jay, I've always had a fire in my belly. I've always wanted to serve. I've always wanted to optimize myself. But really, my life transformed when I discovered this 5am routine. And as you might know, I've been working with billionaires and many of the most successful people on the planet for over two decades. And one of the things, if not the single best thing that I've helped them with is dialing in their morning routine.

• 5:19Robin Sharma?

  Because the way you begin the day sets up the way the day unfolds. And consistently, great mornings cascade into amazing days. Great days build great weeks, quarters, months, and years. So I often say that the 5am Club and the 202020 formula that the book is based on is the mother of all routines. You get that one habit right and everything else escalates.

• 5:44Jay Shetty?

  Right. And specifically, why 5, not 4, not 6, not 3, not 7? Why 5?

• 5:50Robin Sharma?

  Well, I hear you. The 5am Club, I first wrote about it in The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari. And it just stuck and it just, people resonated with it. But you're right. I mean, if you look at the great sages and saints of the world, as you know, you were a monk. They had one thing in common and they understood the pristine hours before the sunrise have a magic to it. And we live in a world where a lot of people, this is right out of the book, "An addiction to distraction is the death of creative production." There are a lot of cyber-zombies on the planet. There are a lot of people on the planet right now giving the best hours of their finest days to the white screen of attractions.

• 6:33Robin Sharma?

  And I really think that betraying your genius, every single person on the planet has primal genius within them. That's scientifically proven. We can talk about it. I go into it in the book. But playing with your phone versus pursuing your monuments of mastery is betraying not only yourself, I think it's betraying the world. And so I really believe and I've experienced it for two decades with my clients, getting up at 5:00 AM and running this calibrated 202020 formula that much of the book is about, will take any human being to a new level of creativity, productivity, prosperity, and service to humanity.

• 7:09Jay Shetty?

  Let's dive into that 2020 formula, since you've mentioned it twice already. Let's break it down for the audience listening.

• 7:14Robin Sharma?

  Sure. So it's, it's, it's, it's simple. You get up at five and people go, I'm not a morning person. You know, mom couldn't get up at five, grandpa couldn't get up before the sun. I don't have early rising genes. I can't win the battle of the bed. Here's what the science confirms from University College of London. Any new skill can be installed with 66 days of practice. And so a lot of people, we all can change. We all can embrace the 5:00 AM club and join the club. So we start our days well. We just don't give it enough time. So the first thing is make a commitment for 66 days to install this habit.

• 7:59Jay Shetty?

  Set that intention.

• 8:00Robin Sharma?

  Completely. It's otherwise, it's like, I want to learn Italian. I tried it for six days and I'm not fluent. I guess I'm not the kind of person who can speak Italian. Right. So now, you know, what do you do over these 60 days, six days of habit installation? Well, it's the 202020 formula. Very quickly, I get into it deeply in the book, but it's the first 20 minutes, the first pocket is called move. Why? Because when you sweat first thing in the morning, you release BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, which increases the processing ability of your brain. You release dopamine. That's the inspirational neurotransmitter. You probably know this, Jay. You wake up first thing in the morning, cortisol, your fear hormone is highest.

• 8:44Robin Sharma?

  Workout first thing in the morning, you actually increase your metabolic rate and energy as an entrepreneur, business builder, empire maker, history maker, energy is even more valuable than your intellect. So that first 20 minute pocket, it's now 520, you're on fire. You release serotonin, you're happy even if you're cranky. I mean, what's that worth? Then the second pocket of the 202020 formula, it's all about reflection. We live in a world where there are a lot of people who are busy being busy, but what's the point of being busy around the wrong things? Just, just imagine getting to the end of the year, end of your career, last day of your life, and you say, you know, I was incredibly

• 9:26Robin Sharma?

  focused, but I climbed the wrong mountains. So the second 20 minute pocket, you can reflect and you can write about your, you can ground in your values, you can meditate, you can visualize, and we know about epigenetics, we can talk about that, but as you start visualizing, you actually step into the higher version of yourself. And I love writing in a journal. I did it before I came here today. I wrote out a written prayer of, you know, serving and making a difference for all your followers from around the world. So the second minute, the second is you anchor for the second 20 minutes. And then the final pocket is all about growth. You know, the billionaires I work with have one common denominator, and that's they're curious. And they have a white belt mentality, even though they're

• 10:10Robin Sharma?

  some of the most famous people in the world. And so the sec, the final pocket is about reading, studying, developing your skills, and most importantly, developing yourself.

• 10:22Jay Shetty?

  I love how you've simplified it into what can be achieved in an hour, because it seems manageable, it seems realistic. And the beautiful thing is that anything that starts working for people, they can then stretch that section. So I'm sure you've seen that the people that you've worked with, sometimes that exercise will grow from 20 to 40 minutes, or maybe even more, that reflection period grows. Or have you seen that it actually stays tight to that 202020?

• 10:45Robin Sharma?

  Oh, you're absolutely right, Jay. That, you know, I call the 202020 formula, the minimum viable morning routine. It's going to work, it's going to give you the energy, it's going to bring on your fire, it's going to help. And another thing, it's not only going to allow you exponential creativity and productivity. But in the 5AM Club, I say tranquility is the new luxury. So whether you're a homemaker, a professional athlete, an entrepreneur, a pizza builder, maybe that's not the term of art.

• 11:16Robin Sharma?

  But you do your best work, we have our greatest impact, and we are most true to our best selves when we're tranquil, peaceful, and serene. And that's another value of joining the 5AM Club because those hours before the sun rises are the most peaceful, magical, quiet period of the day. And if we can anchor in who we truly want to be before we go into a messy world, well, we're going to fundamentally behave differently.

• 11:50Jay Shetty?

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• 12:33Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 12:42Speaker 02

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• 13:11Jay Shetty?

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• 13:43Jay Shetty?

  So much of our lives, we just get up and we start doing, right? We start doing before being and that disconnect creates so many challenges. But I've got a really interesting question that sparked me when I was researching and reading through your book. You've worked with sports superstars, billionaires. What was their biggest block as a pattern that you saw to the 5am club? Like, what was the pattern of the block?

• 14:03Robin Sharma?

  It's the same block we all have, Jay.

• 14:07Robin Sharma?

  I believe that potential unexpressed turns to pain. And

• 14:16Robin Sharma?

  when we are born, we're born as children into awe and wonder. Adults are nothing more than deteriorated children. But as we leave the perfection of childhood, where we're intimate with our gifts and our talents and awe and wonder, our parents, doing their best, say, "You want to be an astronaut? Be practical." Then we go to school and we say, "I want to be a rock star and I want to be an actor and I want to be Jay Shetty when I grow up." And they say, "No, no, he's a different kind of, cut from a different cloth than you." And we, we, we get seduced by the beliefs of the people around us. And we go from this awe and wonder and intimacy with our glory, our primal glory. That's, that's just the human condition and we start to forget who we truly are.

• 15:00Robin Sharma?

  And as our dreams start to fall apart and as we lose that connection with our best selves and as we get sad and disappointed. And as we failed, that's just part of life, a lot of us shut down and we don't know how to process through that pain, so we repress it. And so the great sports superstars or the billionaires I work with, or the, you know, companies like Starbucks, FedEx, Nike, IBM, when I work with their leadership teams, what I do is I help them move through that well of blockage within themselves because in the book, there's a very disruptive model. And it's called the four interior empires. And just really quickly, so many people are talking about mindset. Would you agree? Absolutely. Everything is mindset.

• 15:45Robin Sharma?

  If you just dial in your mindset, you're going to go out there and you're going to change the world. Well, here's, here's what that model is about. I think mindset is only 25% of the personal mastery equation. Yep. And here's why. It's very important to have a great mindset. That's your psychology. You want to wire in the beliefs of world class, no question. But a great psychology with a broken heart or a heart full of pain, if you haven't forgiven the unforgiven, if you're stuck in the past, you can read the books and go to the courses and get a great mindset and you're all on fire, but you sabotage yourself because your emotional life is toxic. So it's not just mindset. There's this second word I'm introducing, which is it's going to transform people. It's heart set.

• 16:30Robin Sharma?

  But it's not only purifying your heart set. Do you want to calibrate your mindset, purify your heart set? And then it's this other word I'm introducing, health set. That's the third interior empire. Because if you want to change the world, don't die. Right? You know? Yes. So one of the keys to legendary is longevity. And there's a lot of the book on how to, how the best in the world, the great geniuses managed their vitality. So they were like in their nineties, still rocking their craft. So it's mindset, heart set, health set, which is your physical life. And here's a key that I think will resonate with you. It's the fourth interior empire is your soul set. Yes. Now, some of your listeners from across the planet will go, well, I'm a business builder, or I want creativity, productivity. Why are we talking about soul set? Well,

• 17:16Robin Sharma?

  If your ego is running the day, you're never going to go out there and change the world. You know, a bad day for the ego is an awesome day for the soul. So, working on your soul set so you are a titan of humanity and you're intimate with your highest nature and you're wiring in the great values and you're living for a cause that's bigger than yourself, that's what allows you to go out in the world and move through failures and really own your domain. So, those four interior empires, once you work on those, you go out in the world and automatically, everything you touch is golden because our outer success is always a function of who we are on the inside.

• 18:00Jay Shetty?

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• 19:17Jay Shetty?

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• 20:01Jay Shetty?

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• 20:13Jay Shetty?

  I love that you brought the four together in the book, and it's so fascinating to have this conversation right now because you're answering so many questions already that I have, which is beautiful to see because that was one of the big things for me is how you've managed to expand on not just settling for mindset. Because as we all know in our personal experience that that doesn't do the trick. And I completely agree with you that something I'm really fascinated by right now is healing people's childhoods. Like I feel like healing that emotional, you know, the heart set that you're speaking about, being able to give up that baggage that comes from our childhood experiences, our backgrounds, where we grew up, the types of friends we had in our teens. You know, all that baggage that's just accruing year upon year.

• 20:57Jay Shetty?

  And I really feel that you break that down really well in the book. So anyway, where I want to dive in is around, a lot of people listening may be thinking, Jay, I've been trying to work on my health for a while. I've been trying to work on my mindset. You know, I know I've got emotional stuff to deal with and yeah, I'm kind of getting to that soul set, right? Like you said, like I'm not even sure I'm there yet. Habit formation, you talk about the habit formation protocol, right? You talk about actually building habits. And I personally feel that building and breaking habits should have been the first thing we learned at school. Because it feels like the thing that affects our whole lives. I look at any change and it's always about habits. Walk us through your approach to building and breaking habits.

• 21:41Robin Sharma?

  Absolutely, and I totally agree with you, Jay. They teach us history and they teach us arithmetic. They teach us geography and they teach us,

• 21:50Robin Sharma?

  you know, whatever other languages in school. Why don't they teach us the four interior empires? Why don't they teach us? You said something very powerful. Why don't they teach us how to work through wounds? You don't get invited to a birthday party in fifth grade. There is a wound there. You lose a love when you're 16. There is a wound there. You start a business when you're 22. There is trauma there. And I think that is in many ways the missing link in leadership and personal mastery. And that's really, you know, I'm passionate about the 5AM Club. Because I get into that in the book.

• 22:30Robin Sharma?

  And I worked four years on the book, but it's really 22 years of my learnings and teaching in the book. And that is a missing link, because everyone's talking about psychology and people are talking about habits. And I'll answer your question, of course. But what about dealing with trauma? You know, Carl Jung said, "We all have this shadow side." I mean, we all have this well of repressed pain. And anyone who's listening who goes, "Well, that's not me." It's subconscious, so a lot of, unless you've done the work, you don't even know about it. But it's that pain and self-loathing and self-hatred. In the 5AM Club, I say, you know, we have a magic inside of us. The saints call it the light, or God, or nature, or luminosity.

• 23:14Robin Sharma?

  And what happens is when you do the work to release your toxic beliefs and move through your pain. And how do you do it? You just feel it. And as you feel through all the toxicity and the hurt and the wounding and the disappointment, that's called a human journey. What is left as you release it? You access your light. You access your primal genius. You access creativity. You're productive because you don't have all this emotional baggage you're carrying through the day. You've, you know... I believe that the real art of, the real key to success is joy and inner peace. Like, that's why all, a lot of the billionaires, they have all the things and they're not happy.

• 23:57Robin Sharma?

  Our nature is joy, peace, bliss, love. And when you release that trauma, it just shows up because that's who we truly are. So, yes, we should, we should teach, I wish they were teaching this in school. And then our leaders would be pure leaders like Nelson Mandela, and Mother Teresa, and Mahatma Gandhi. And I'd love to talk about those heroes, because as you know, that last chapter is about that. And we all, we all can be heroes. But on habit installation, so the research, as I mentioned, University College of London says it takes 66 days for any human being to wire in a, in a habit. And we all have a gift called neuroplasticity, so we all can do it.

• 24:42Robin Sharma?

  And then the model I, I share in the book is called the Habit Installation Protocol. And basically, it's 22 days called installation, uh, excuse me, called destruction. To get up early, you've got to destroy your old neural patterns and emotional signatures of getting up later. That doesn't happen in an instant. All change is hard at first, messy in the middle, gorgeous at the end. So that first destruction phase is 22 days. There's nothing wrong. Society says it's hard, so it's bad. I'm suggesting it's hard, so it's good. That's what real change is. As you, with that awareness, you can stay with it and get into the second phase, which is installation. And that's like a house renovation, which is messy.

• 25:26Robin Sharma?

  And that's why change is messy in the middle. Your old pathways and ways of being are falling apart. But you know this, because I, I sense you have a very deep grounding. In that middle part, you have to, in some ways, let go of who you were. It's called a dark night of the soul. So for 22 days, it's messy in the middle because you're letting go of who you were. That's not easy and that's why habit installation, you need to have some bravery. But that's only 22 days, stay with it because then you get to the third phase, which is implementation. So destruction, integration, implementation. Well, now we're on the short roads and the neuroplasticity has kicked in. And the researchers call it automaticity.

• 26:09Robin Sharma?

  You will, every human being can get to a place 66 days later approximately, where it actually gets easier to get up at 5:00 AM than to stay in the bed. And the point is, it's called automaticity. And that's, you know, we all have that ability. We just need to stay with that three-stage process for 66 days.

• 26:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and I think that's really smart advice. Anyone who's listening right now, I just want you to know that with the depths that Robin can go to, I'm like torn between trying to help him answer tactical questions. Because I know they're going to benefit you today. And then, so there's always two things in my world. There's existential questions and circumstantial questions. And with Robin, you can go and do both. So I'm in that middle ground right now of going between tactics and soul, tactics and soul. So I'm enjoying that because I want people listening to get something really practical, tactical, stuff that they can start tomorrow, which the book is full of. But at the same time, you can speak to the soul, Robin. Like you can really go deep. You're just speaking about our natural nature, right?

• 27:12Jay Shetty?

  Habit change in a much more mature way than just, hey, start this on day one and start this on day two. So forgive me if I'm going in between the two, but I'm doing it because I'm trying to win for both the audience, long-term and short-term.

• 27:25Robin Sharma?

  Well, you know, I wish your audience was in the room here with us because I feel what you just said. And I know you want to go deeper. And yet, I know you want people to get the 5:00 AM method. You want them to get the 2020 formula and all those rituals. And what I would suggest, we can touch on more of them as you like. If I may, I suggest trust your instinct because it's always wiser than your intellect. And let's go deep. And I think it would be, you know, your followers, let's challenge them, push them to the jagged edges because they're smart people.

• 27:59Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, absolutely. No, I completely agree and I'm happy to do that, happy to do that. Let's go there, let's do that.

• 28:05Robin Sharma?

  I'm all in.

• 28:06Jay Shetty?

  Let's dive into the minds of the few people you mentioned, because I think that's a nice place to start. It's a nice kind of bridge over to that side. You mentioned Nelson Mandela, you mentioned Mother Teresa and Gandhi, two of which I have pictures up on my wall behind you. Mother Teresa seems so humble that I can't find a picture of her. Like, it's so hard to find a really good picture of her that I can get on my wall. So, speak to me about those three individuals and why you mentioned them.

• 28:33Robin Sharma?

  When I grew, when I, my father is in his 80s. He's been an icon of possibility in my life. And he retired recently after 54 years as a family physician. And he said, Robin, I said, Dad, why did you stay in the game so long? And he said, because my patients needed me.

• 28:56Robin Sharma?

  He's a man of service. And he used to share a quote with me from Rubindranath Tagore. And it was, Robin, when you were born, you cried while the world rejoiced. He said, Son, live your life in such a way that when you die, the world cries while you rejoice.

• 29:15Robin Sharma?

  Now, I've seen your work and you're doing an amazing job. And some of your posts are, you know, don't worry so much about likes. And I think you're right. I think we're in a, in a lost world in many ways. And I don't think it's about likes, and I don't think it's about yachts, and I don't think it's about jets. And are those things wrong? Absolutely not. We're sensual human beings, having a journey. But I think there's a different game that the true legends and titans play. And it's about enjoying the journey, but it's really about making an impact on humanity. And there's not one of your listeners who can't do that, whether it's if you work in a coffee shop, or you're a teacher, or you're a street sweeper. We all have a calling on our lives to elevate those around us.

• 30:01Robin Sharma?

  And so, service has been very big to me. My life changed on two occasions. Number one, I sat in Mother Teresa's bedroom in Calcutta, now called Colqueta. And it was interesting to me, she had nothing but a bed and a table.

• 30:18Robin Sharma?

  Because she reached a level of maturity where her bliss and joy didn't come from material things, it came from love and service. Two years ago, I stood in Nelson Mandela's prison cell. And my life changed standing there because he was in there for 18 years. I stood in the limestone quarry where he chipped away at limestone that they didn't even use to degrade him because he had no purpose. I stood in the showers where he would shower naked as an elderly statesman while the young

• 30:59Robin Sharma?

  guards laughed at him, again to torture him. In the 5am Club, I write a true story where he was asked on Robben Island to dig a grave. And Jay, they said, "Get in the grave." And he thought, of course, he was gonna die. And they urinated on him. And yet, when he was freed from Robben Island, and then he went to Drakenstein Prison in Parle, South Africa. When he was released, he actually found the prosecutor who fought for the death penalty and took him to dinner.

• 31:42Robin Sharma?

  And he actually went to the jailer who kept him in prison for 18 years on Robben Island over a total of 27 years of confinement. And he seated him near the front at his inauguration as president of South Africa. And he was asked, "Why did you do that?" And he said, "Because if I didn't, I would still be in prison." And so, why do I mention Nelson Mandela and Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King Jr.? It's because... The 5 AM Club and all these rituals, yes, be creative, it'll help you productivity, it'll make you money in that. But really, in many ways, this book is a manifesto about our responsibility to materialize who we are on the inside. You know, and there's,

• 32:25Robin Sharma?

  I would take a bullet, Martin Luther King Jr. said, "If you have not found something you die for, you're not fit to live." I would take a bullet for the fact that every single person on the planet, if they run these rituals, and they do the work, and they stay in the game, not only when it's easy, but when it's hard, they're going to live gorgeous lives in their own original way. So, why wait for these heroes to show up? We're all, "Oh, I wish there were more leaders and heroes," when we all have it in us to be one of those heroes. But most of us aren't doing the right things to manifest our glory.

• 32:58Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much for sharing that so openly. I can only imagine what it felt like to actually be in those spaces and places and kind of absorb that energy. It definitely is such a powerful thing to do, and I recommend that to people. If you're inspired by anyone, don't get lost in what they look like they're doing now. Go to the places where they started, where they felt their pain, where they had their transformation, because you can soak in all of that energy and that journey much more deeply than you can by following them on Instagram or Twitter, which is only going to give you such a minimal viewpoint of that person's life. But you reminded me of something, and I want to ask you about this very closely. I was speaking to a Fortune 100 organization once, and I

• 33:40Jay Shetty?

  was sharing a story. And I was speaking about how, when I decided to become a monk, it was because of service. It was because I wanted to be someone of service to humanity. That's what motivated me. I felt, I want to use my life to give. And because the monks I was associated with were giving, and generous, and serving with everything they had, that motivated me. And one of the most beautiful thoughts and pieces of wisdom that I got at that time was, "Learn to plant trees under whose shade you do not plan to sit." And that, when I first heard that for the first time, it kind of just like... My whole, you know, my whole being came alive. I was like, yeah, that's what life's about. It's about giving without wanting to get back. It's about giving without receiving. And the crazy thing is, so I share this story.

• 34:23Jay Shetty?

  And then at dinner, I'm sitting down with the leadership and one of them says to me, he says, he said, how old were you when you heard that and decided to start living it? I said, I heard it at eighteen. I started living it at eighteen and three, eighteen and a quarter. I tried to start putting it in practice straight away. He said, you know what? He said, the first time I started thinking about someone else apart from myself was when I had a child at thirty-two. So what he was sharing with me is that this mentality that we're and you're being an ambassador for, of serving humanity, giving, you know, being someone of impact for society, that's so alien to us. It's actually something that people don't come to even later on in life, because it kind of stops at your kids and your family.

• 35:05Jay Shetty?

  So how are you urging people in every stage of life to kind of go there? Because it requires, it's, it's a big like paradigm shift for a lot of people.

• 35:15Robin Sharma?

  Jim Carrey said, I wish everyone could be rich and famous to realize there's no joy in that, to paraphrase his words.

• 35:21Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes.

• 35:22Robin Sharma?

  And, you know, I, I, look, I, I've seen the best in the best. I've had Richard Branson on my, on my faculty, Steve Wozniak, Shaquille O'Neal. I, I've worked with real superstars. And a lot of them are just really unhappy people. I'm not saying the ones I mentioned, but a lot of them are really unhappy people. And they'll show you their smiley face, but deep inside they're going, I'm worth, you know, three billion and I've got jets and I've got multiple residences. But there's, there's got to be more. And so how I would urge people to embrace the message of being a forceful servant for people is, first of all, if you're an entrepreneur, you have a lot of entrepreneurs who follow you.

• 36:04Robin Sharma?

  There's no better way than standing for generosity if you want to own your domain. You know, what made Apple, Apple, first trillion dollar company, was Steve Jobs wasn't worried about the cash, he was worried about the craft. Someone came to one of my events and said, you know, Robin, you mentioned Steve Jobs. I saw him six weeks before he died. I went into his den. As he was dying, and he said, I think it was just before the release of the iPhone, and it was like, um, you know, that little thing we were working on? He had a monomaniacal obsession bordering on a possession to birth beauty into the world that would elevate the lives of his customers. That's generosity, not scarcity.

• 36:49Robin Sharma?

  So it's great for a business. Secondly, if you want real joy, it doesn't come from getting. And a lot of the book is about how you materialize empires in the world. But the end of the book, when Mr. Riley, the billionaire, we can talk about the story. He's on that Francorchuk Vineyard and he shares his 11 letters. And he explains, he uses a word called the magic. And if you want to inhabit the magic, I've done it at parts of my life. I don't know if you have, but I've experienced bliss. And then it comes and it goes. But bliss has never come to me from getting. Bliss and joy and what Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi,

• 37:33Robin Sharma?

  who coined the term flow from University of Chicago. When we are literally in that moment, when we're in our magic, that comes from giving. It comes from being in the moment when you're writing that book going, how can I be an instrument of service and bring on my craft? Giving, like helping someone on the street, doing something for your faith. You know, I'm really into philanthropy these days. That's my joy. So that's how I would urge people, like if, if you want real empires, if you want real happiness, you want real bliss, you want to elevate your immune system. Look, there's lots of science. Just go out in the world and give as much value as you possible and radiate possibility. And amazing things will unfold in your life.

• 38:16Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And thank you for being such a strong ambassador for that message. It's, it's the message that I genuinely believe everyone needs to hear. And hearing it from you, from the work that you've done and the incredible career that you have, to hear it from you is, is super powerful. And for me, when you mentioned about feeling bliss or feeling flow state and that coming from giving, I've also felt that that intention.

• 38:42Jay Shetty?

  Opens me up to exploring channeling, like the ability to feel like things are happening through you, not by you, right? Like, that's when I really feel flow. That's when I really feel my best. That's when I really feel bliss, when I recognize that this is way beyond me. This is not just what I think I have and do and strategically and like technical and this step and that step. And that's all good. Like, I'm not against that. I'm also strategic. But it's when you tell me if you agree, if you feel that way, if you disagree, like, I'd love to hear your thoughts on on channeling and and higher higher powers and higher energy and higher perspective.

• 39:20Robin Sharma?

  Well, when I said, let's go deep, you you're not shy to do that, right?

• 39:24Jay Shetty?

  You let me out.

• 39:27Robin Sharma?

  Be careful what you wish for. I've never been asked about channeling, and I'm very happy to answer. There's a lot of emerging science saying, here's the reality, and anyone who wants to dismiss it is denying science, which is Planet Earth is a tiny planet in a galaxy of trillions of planets. My friend Deepak Chopra was on my stage at one of my events a few months ago. He's a lovely man. He just radiates goodness. And he took us on a tour de force about cosmology, and he's been a pioneer for so many years. And he confirmed the science, which is we are all part of an energy source, whatever you want to call

• 40:08Robin Sharma?

  it. God, nature, life. And you're absolutely right, Jay. Your intentions are creative. So we could come at it from a cosmological point of view, when you say, here's who I want to be. You know, this morning in my journaling, I'm going to meet Jay. I'm so delighted and blessed that he's invited me on his show because he influences so many people. How may I serve? That intention, hopefully, is creative. So we're very powerful. I'll come at it another way, which is epigenetics. Epigenetics, as you know,

• 40:46Robin Sharma?

  stands for the emerging field of science, which is you are not your genome. The old school said, your DNA, what you get from mom and dad, that's your destiny. We're now realizing that epigenetics means our environment, our daily rituals, like getting up at 5:00 a.m., our thoughts, what we eat, our peer group, et cetera, literally affects the up-regulation or down-regulation of our genome. What does that mean? It means if you believe in yourself, if you do the work in the journaling, if you get up at 5:00 a.m. and do that victory hour and go through the 202020 formula, you literally are recalibrating who you will become out in the world. So you're absolutely right.

• 41:31Robin Sharma?

  Then you start channeling your intentions and you start stepping into your power. Like, we are awesomely powerful beings. Most of us have blocked our intimacy with our true power.

• 41:44Jay Shetty?

  Wow, blocked our intimacy with our true power. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's real, that's for sure. That's definitely real. I'm just taking that in. I think that's a really powerful statement. That's a genuinely powerful statement. I want everyone to think that through. If you're listening right now, you're watching right now. And that's, that's, I guess, the biggest challenge with all these rituals, all these steps that you're sharing, is really to remove that block.

• 42:10Robin Sharma?

  Absolutely correct.

• 42:11Jay Shetty?

  Really just to move out of the way.

• 42:12Robin Sharma?

  We were born into brilliance. The saints and mystics and philosophers have talked about it, you know? As we go out in the world, we take on the beliefs and the emotional patterns of those who influence us, you know? And then what happens is we actually forget who we truly are. One thing that I think is very important is also build intimacy with mortality. Because, you know, sometimes people probably ask you this, they ask me this, what do you want to be remembered for? Well, I'm pretty clear, I'll be dust. Hopefully, I'll get to live a long life, but I'll be dust and no one will remember me aside from my family. You know, and so why make it about ego?

• 42:57Robin Sharma?

  And as we connect with our mortality, we realize what life is really about. And that's a great thing to do from five to six o'clock in the morning, like in that second pocket of the 202020 formula, write in your journal, on the last hour of my last day, what do I want said about me? And have the discipline to architect your life so each day is a mountain climb towards that Mount Everest.

• 43:20Jay Shetty?

  I'd love to dive into, we're speaking about this identity around service, humanity, talking about how these rules and rituals and principles can help us get there quicker, stronger, more sustainably. I'd love to talk about the difference between an identity crafted by service and an identity crafted by wanting to please everyone. Because I think service today with our, with our childlike mentality at an early stage, service looks like pleasing everyone. It looks like doing the right thing. It looks like doing the thing that gets people to say, you're great, I like you. Right? How, what is the difference? How have you seen power players play the difference between service and actually what is selfishness or ego?

• 44:04Robin Sharma?

  I, I would say pleasing comes from fear and a lack of standing in your true power. There's a distinction I make in the 5am club between fake power, big office, for example, lots of money, jets, titles. That's fake power. True power is Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi. He died with under 10 possessions. That's true power. He, he did not get his power from who he was in the world and by pleasing people, he got his power by intimacy with his highest nature. That's true power. So what's the difference between pleasing and service?

• 44:47Robin Sharma?

  Pleasing comes from scarcity and fear, self-loathing and insecurity. If, if they don't like me.

• 44:58Robin Sharma?

  Then I'm not enough. Well, you know, any great genius, any, the great women and men of the world stood alone, even if they were an army of one, Galileo, Coco Chanel, Catherine Graham, Shakespeare, Jean-Michel Basquiat. If you look at the great producers of the planet, they were ridiculed before they were revered. You, you can change the world or you can be liked by everyone. You don't get to do both. So service comes from, here's my vision. Maybe it's the internet, maybe it's Apple, maybe it's, you know, writing a book or a movie. Here's my vision. And even if the world laughs at me, I am so

• 45:39Robin Sharma?

  strong in my vision to serve, to disrupt the field, to bring on value and to live my truth, that even if they shoot me and take a bullet, I will continue at all costs. That is a titan. That's a legend. But a lot of us have not done the inner excavation. And that's why I go back to the four interior empires. That's why the 5am club, five to six, the victory hour, doing the protocols that I teach in the book is transformational. Because the doorway to success doesn't open outward. If you get it inward and build that core, that warrior meets poet self, you go out in the world, you're powerful.

• 46:23Jay Shetty?

  I love that. You can please everyone or change the world. You can't do both. Yeah, that's gonna stick with me. I like that. And I think that's really important for people to remember because we feel that they have to be aligned. We feel that both have to come together. But it's not always the case. And it's actually rarely the case from the examples that you stated there. Yeah, phenomenal, phenomenal. And so, one of the things for me there is, now you've got me going. Now you've got me in the zone of going deep.

• 46:51Robin Sharma?

  Great. I'm excited too.

• 46:52Jay Shetty?

  But it's funny, a lot of people ask me, like, I lived as a monk for three years. We meditate for four to eight hours a day. And a lot of people tell me, like, what powers did you get? You know, like, what kind of, what kind of like mystic powers did you get from meditating for so long? And, and my answer often, especially when I get asked it in that way, is like, actually, I just learned beautiful processes and meditations to overcome envy, ego, pride, lust, you know, all those things. Like, for me, that's a much greater wealth. Than being able to make money manifest or fly in the air or, you know, transport myself, like that kind of stuff, like you said, you were saying fake power. And it's almost like in the yogi world, like that's the fake power. And then tell me a bit about the work that you've done.

• 47:36Jay Shetty?

  There's a, there's a quote that you said, I've read this from you. I can't even remember when I read it, probably like six years ago. And it, it stayed with me for so long. You said that, well, I've read it. You said, you can only take the world as far as you've visited internally. And I was just like, oh, like when I, you know, when you read that, it was like, I was like, yes, I, I fully agree. And I remind myself that often when I take, no matter, and I really appreciate your encouragement to me of what I've done so far. I'm like, yeah, but I, if I need to take the world further than that, I need to go deeper. Tell me about some of the work that you've done to really go deeper. Tell me about those moments of pain, those, those moments where you reflect and you were like, Robert, you're not, you're not, you're not living up to what you want to do. You're not at that stage yet.

• 48:20Jay Shetty?

  You've got to go deeper to take the world further.

• 48:22Robin Sharma?

  Wow. I, I, I feel like we need another two hours or three, or another day. We should do a day long podcast.

• 48:28Jay Shetty?

  Do it again.

• 48:29Robin Sharma?

  You know, I would love to, but um. So many things I, I would say the first, the first thing is your self-identity determines your impact and your income. That's where the real work is. You, so what have I done? What have I gone through? Well, I mean, like any human being, I've gone through heartbreak. And the majority says, if you go through heartbreak, if you're on your knees because your life is falling apart, rush out as quickly as possible. What I've discovered, Jay, is stay in as long as possible. Because.

• 49:12Robin Sharma?

  Difficulty is growth in wolf's clothing. And if you Nelson Mandela became Nelson Mandela, or you know, Steve Jobs became Steve Jobs, or Phil Knight, who created Nike with Bowerman, those people became who they were because of their most difficult experiences. So, the greatest people on the planet have suffered the most. Suffering is not bad. I'm suggesting, suffering is awesome. The ego runs from suffering because it's the death of the ego. But I believe pain, difficult times, failure, loss, is purification and preparation for

• 49:57Robin Sharma?

  personal heroism. And so I've used heartbreak, I've used disappointment, I've used difficulty. The monk who sold his Ferrari, that was a self-published book. I was ridiculed, I have to say even now. The 5am Club, because there's so many new ideas in it. Some people are criticizing it. And they're not, because they're not understanding it. Because anything new threatens people. And so that activated my self-doubt. Have I missed the mark? Have I spent four years doing my very best for this book? And have I got it wrong?

• 50:36Robin Sharma?

  And so all, I believe, everything that hurts you can strengthen you. And so I've used all the difficult times to make me better. And tactically, if you want to shift to tactics, you know, I have an acup, well, I have an acupuncturist, I have a spiritual counselor, I believe in, one of the models of the 10 rituals of daily genius is the two massage protocol. That's transformational. I biohack, I get drips or drops, or whatever they're called, I supplement, I meditate, it just goes on and on. I spend way more time, even on my craft than I, on my, developing myself than I do on my craft. And that's what makes my craft better.

• 51:18Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and I, and I could encourage people more that if you have a business, if you have a family, whatever, it's a relationship, anything you're trying to grow, recognize you have to grow first. Like, if you want to go three steps forward, you've got to go three steps deep. Like, it's not going to come the other way. And if you feel like you're just going to push forward the whole time... And it's not working, it's probably a good sign that you need to take a step back and go deeper.

• 51:44Robin Sharma?

  I would say to anyone of your so many followers across the planet, Jay, anyone who is not living at absolute world-class, you are your own worst enemy. But because it's so subconscious, if you haven't done the deep inner work, we blame it on, oh, it's the supplier, oh, it's the market is contracting, oh, it's a hard time in the global economy. The reality is there are people out there at every possible domain of wealth who are doing amazing things. If you're not living your dream life or at your absolute best, it's because you're in your own way. And what is the solution? It's working not just on mindset like so many people are talking about.

• 52:28Robin Sharma?

  Mindset, heart set, health set, soul set.

• 52:34Robin Sharma?

  And getting that acupuncture might be the way to do it, plus hypnotherapy could be doing it, and could be massage, and it could all that inner work that a lot of people go, oh, that's not for me. Well, that's how you move through the blocks of your shadows that are covering your primal genius.

• 52:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I totally agree. I love those four. When I read those, I was like, I'm so glad that you covered the four. Because you're so right, that we're, it's kind of like our human wiring, where we love like the one thing you have to do, right? Like, it's like, what's the one thing I have to do? And it's kind of like, well, no, you've got four things to do, right? Like, there's not just one thing. And I think our minds don't like that at first. We struggle with that at first. We're like, oh, I've got to think about that, and I've got to think about that, and I've got to think about that. But when you start recognizing that they all actually are connected, they're interconnected, they're all assisting each other. If you get your health set right, it's going to affect your emotional set. If you get your emotional set right, it's going to affect your soul set, etc. Like, there's such a...

• 53:38Jay Shetty?

  And that's why I do think, and I couldn't agree with you more, that waking up early just gives you the time and energy to do all of this. Right? Like, waking up early just gives you that opportunity. You're like setting yourself up to be able to put all of this in.

• 53:54Robin Sharma?

  There's a line in the book, which it comes from the Spartan warrior credo, sweat more in trading and you'll bleed less in war.

• 54:03Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 54:05Robin Sharma?

  Victories are won before you even step onto the field. You look at Kobe Bryant, you know, for example, or Shaq, or LeBron, or Federer, or Serena. These people made the moves they made that won them the championship, not because of what they did on the championship court. It was their sweaty, disciplined practice at 5:00 a.m. while the rest of the world was not watching that allowed them to automate world-class in times of pressure. So, you're right. 5:00 a.m., getting up at 5:00 a.m., joining the 5:00 a.m. club, giving yourself that time and the quietude when it's the time of least distraction to do the work we're talking about will revolutionize any human life.

• 54:50Robin Sharma?

  That's why I say it's the mother of all habits. That's why I'm so passionate about it. And then you say about mindset, hearts, and health, and soul set. Here's what I think, Jen, I'd love to know your thoughts, but we live in a world now where we're actually numb to our hearts and we're numb to our feelings and we're numb to love. I was in the gym early this morning, there was a woman, she had taken the weights from the weight area and taken them to the cardio area just for herself. No one else got to use them. Not judging, just reporting. She's numb to feeling empathy for other people who want to work out. As I walked to get my coffee this morning, I kid you not, 6:56, excuse me, 6:56 this

• 55:33Robin Sharma?

  morning, a woman was banging on the door of a deli, yelling at the employee, saying, "Open up," because I guess she really wanted her bagel. What I'm saying is, we're taught to numb out our feelings, so we live in our head. And that's why so many people are saying everything is mindset, because they're living in their head. But great art... Great architecture, great businesses, great lives, don't just come from the head. They come from your heart, your feelings, your passion, your gratitude, your, your, your body, your health set and from, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to places people don't talk about.

• 56:14Robin Sharma?

  Yes, they come from your soul. Your soul is just your higher nature before the world taught you not to believe in who you truly are.

• 56:23Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. Yeah, no, I agree with you. Listening to that, I agree with you. I've often said that we're wired for generosity, but educated for greed. It's like we're shifted the other way. But as young children, we were wired for generosity. There's so many shows of that where we lived through our heart when we're kids. And all of a sudden, it's like living from here as we grow older, this grows older as well. And we start living from here, like you're saying, like, we're like moving out of our heart and into our head as we get older. And I think one thing that I've noticed as to why people behave like that when I'm observing and reporting, is I feel that people have lived through, through their heart and they've been hurt. Like people have lived through their heart and they've been hurt

• 57:07Jay Shetty?

  by people who also were not living through their heart. And now to protect themselves, people are now living through their head too, because they think, well, if you're on your head, I'm gonna work through my head too. That's, that's my perception. That's my observation. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that and, and how we can switch back because I agree with you. Everything that's incredible in the world comes from our heart. Everything that we admire. But we've stopped that because we're scared of living through our heart.

• 57:32Robin Sharma?

  Well, it's, it's, it's a dangerous conversation, Jay, because it's easy for me and you to talk about mindset. That's easy. That's the status quo mentality, mentality. And yet, right? And, and, and Freudian slip. So I've got more work to do. I need to go. No, I'm, I, we're singing from the same songbook. It's, you didn't get invited to the birthday party, your, your heart gets hurt. You needed the attention of your mom or your dad as a little child and they were doing whatever.

• 58:07Robin Sharma?

  Your heart gets hurt. You go through life and you don't get into the university you want, your heart gets hurt. As this happens, as I was mentioning before, it's this, it's this steady getting away from who we truly are, and you're right, so we contract and the contract, it's, trauma creates contraction. Trauma causes the heart to protect and we then protect ourselves from being, we try to feel safe. Well, that's the way most people are living and that's why we really don't have truly intimate relationships. That's why we can't build a team of Picasso's because we're not really loving and open in the workplace.

• 58:49Robin Sharma?

  That's why we can't create products that are so beautiful, we put them out in the world and we create a cult around them because they're so amazing. Intellectually, our mindset, we get it. And I'm not saying mindset isn't important, it's in the model, it's 25% of the personal mastery equation. But the missing link is heart set. And you're absolutely right, we don't do it because we're scared. Rumi said, "Keep breaking your heart over and over and over until it opens." And so the real work of a hero, as well as a business builder and a legend, is working on your, opening up your mind, installing that psychology of mastery, but purifying your heart and we can get into tactics.

• 59:34Robin Sharma?

  So you release the past pain, but you also embrace your gratitude and you stand in love. And then you work on the third interior empire, your heart, your health set. Because if you are diseased, if you, there's a line in the book which is, "Energy is more important than even your talent." You know, you can have great ambitions and great opportunities, if you can't execute with fire, nothing gets done. And then I get back to the fourth interior empire, which is soul set. And I think, you know, entrepreneurs should be talking about soul set. And if anyone gets scared, it's not religion, it's about... Building intimacy with your noble self. It's about finding that cause that you'd be willing to take a bullet for, that will not only allow you to live a gorgeous lifestyle,

• 1:00:19Robin Sharma?

  but serve the world in the process.

• 1:00:21Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. So well said, Robin. Thank you so much. I hope that everyone who's listening and watching is thinking what I'm thinking is that, Robin, we have to set a couple of days aside to really dive into so much more of this. We've got to, we're going to end unfortunately, but I, I feel like what we've captured today in my, in my space for me is this energy of getting people to move further and deeper. Like, that's what we've truly captured at the essence of pushing, everyone who's listening and watching, including myself, you know, I'm included too, pushing us to start living through that deeper space, our soul set, our heart set, as opposed to remaining on the, not superficial, but remaining on the levels that are above. But I'm going to end, as we always do, with our final five questions.

• 1:01:06Jay Shetty?

  This is our rapid fire section. It's one word answers, three word answers max. So I'm going to ask you them now. The first question is, the best city to be in when you're writing a book? And I knew you wrote this across the fuse, so.

• 1:01:20Robin Sharma?

  I, I wrote The Five M Club mostly in Rome. It's, it's a Rome of great, it's a place of great beauty and magic.

• 1:01:26Jay Shetty?

  Beautiful. Second question, the best advice you've ever received?

• 1:01:33Robin Sharma?

  Hmm, wow. I, I would just say, as simple as it sounds, never rest on your laurels and keep learning every day.

• 1:01:44Jay Shetty?

  Nice. Third question, the worst advice you've ever received?

• 1:01:50Robin Sharma?

  Hmm, wow.

• 1:01:56Robin Sharma?

  The worst, what a great question, Jay. Forgive me for pausing here. I just want to be honest and true to you. The worst advice I've ever received?

• 1:02:04Jay Shetty?

  I'm trying to call out bad advice.

• 1:02:06Robin Sharma?

  I, I think it's, it's.

• 1:02:11Robin Sharma?

  It's, I think it's all about

• 1:02:18Robin Sharma?

  not being true to yourself.

• 1:02:21Jay Shetty?

  Fourth, that's great, actually. That's a great answer. Not being true to yourself. Love that. The fourth question is a mentor that has mentored you without someone you ever met. Someone that you never met that mentored you.

• 1:02:32Robin Sharma?

  Nelson Mandela.

• 1:02:33Jay Shetty?

  Beautiful. I love that. I thought that was gonna be the answer, but I wanted to check. And I love that. I love that you said that because I won't be able to recognize you can be mentored by people you never met. You don't need to meet all your mentors.

• 1:02:44Robin Sharma?

  That's why being around art shapes you. That's why standing in Nelson Mandela's prison cell transforms you. That's why reading a book is having a conversation with the author. That's why getting on airplanes and traveling changes your creativity and who you are. You just need to get out there and be exposed to genius, a genius level ecosystem. And that just reorders who you are in the world.

• 1:03:12Jay Shetty?

  Awesome. And fifth and final question, your wish intention for everyone who's gonna, after this, go ahead, buy the 5AM Club, read it. What's your wish and intention for them?

• 1:03:22Robin Sharma?

  Well, when I would write each day, over the four years of this journey, I actually visualized my readers connecting with their primal genius and their luminosity as they would turn the pages. And that is my prayer, that as your followers read it, they remember who they are and they stop betraying their power. And I also wish that they don't put the book down and think it's a magic pill.

• 1:03:54Robin Sharma?

  I've built a 66-day free program. The details are at the end of the book. So after they finish it, they get a free online program where I walk them through and mentor them for 66 days. So they install that 5AM Club, the habit to automaticity. But let's just remember, please, that world class is a process, not an event. And working on yourself and being noble and an amazing entrepreneur and creative and a light in the world, it's a great way to spend the rest of your life. And we need to keep doing it until we no longer breathe. So my wish is that at all costs, all your people, when it's easy and hard and they have self-doubt, they just...

• 1:04:37Robin Sharma?

  Continue.

• 1:04:38Jay Shetty?

  I love it. Thank you so much. There you guys have it. Robin Sharma's 5 AM Club Own Your Morning Elevate Your Life. This book is not full of words, as you've just noticed, full of energy that has beautiful wishes and intentions for you. I hope that you're gonna make the most of it. I know for a fact that waking up early changed my life and I'd love for it to happen to you. This is the book, that the guidebook that's gonna show you how. Thank you so much, Robin, for being here. I'm so grateful. Thank you to all of you for being here, too. Thank you again, Robin. Thank you so much. You're such a gracious person. You deserve all your success. Jay, I think this is just the beginning of your ascent and I thank you for your time. It's been beautiful. Thank you.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

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• 1:05:56Speaker 04

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• 1:05:59Speaker 04

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• 1:06:06Speaker 04

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• 1:06:25Speaker 05

  Mr. President, my company tore me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 1:06:36Speaker 06

  Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Ravenhead.

• 1:06:42Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze, you get that's what?

• 1:06:46Speaker 06

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:06:49Speaker 05

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:06:50Speaker 06

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only appears October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.