MADONNA: For the First Time Ever

How do you find peace daily? What keeps you going in hard times? Today, Jay sits down with Madonna for a rare and intimate conversation that goes beyond her iconic career into the spiritual foundation that has carried her through life’s greatest challenges. For nearly 30 years, Madonna has walked a spiritual path that has shaped her resilience, fueled her creativity, and defined her sense of purpose. Madonna opens up about what first drew her to seek deeper meaning, the practices that became her lifeline, and why she believes spirituality has been the true key to her strength, longevity, and fulfillment. Together, Jay and Madonna dive into themes of transformation, the search for meaning in suffering, the freedom that comes with radical acceptance, and the power of forgiveness to heal our deepest wounds. Madonna shares the moments that tested her most, from loss and betrayal to near-death experiences, and how each challenge became an opening for growth when she chose to see it through the lens of purpose rather than punishment. In the second half of the conversation, Jay and Madonna are joined by her longtime Kabbalah teacher, Eitan, for a powerful exploration of spiritual wisdom in action. They discuss why our struggles and inner battles are essential for growth, and how to reframe challenges as opportunities to reveal greater light. Eitan offers practical tools, from pausing and embracing discomfort to practicing “certainty beyond logic,” to help us find strength in life’s most difficult moments. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Build a Spiritual Practice How to Find Meaning in Suffering How to Escape the Victim Mentality How to Practice Radical Acceptance How to Forgive and Let Go How to Manifest with Consciousness How to Teach Kids Spiritual Awareness How to Stop Comparing Yourself to Others How to Discover Your Soul’s Purpose Every one of us will face moments of doubt, loss, or uncertainty, but those moments are not the end of our story, they are invitations to grow into something greater. The challenges we experience are not punishments but lessons, guiding us back to our true selves. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here. Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast Explore the deep spiritual study of Kabbalah with Madonna’s new course, ‘The Mystical Studies of the Zohar’ together with her teacher Eitan Yardeni at www.kabbalah.com What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:44 Beginning a Spiritual Journey 02:41 Choosing Your Spiritual Path 08:26 Breath, Yoga, and Inner Peace 17:40 Do You Need Spirituality to Be Successful? 20:29 Channeling Art Through Spirit 24:56 Transcending Trauma and Pain 27:56 Life Beyond Money and Material Success 30:30 Motherhood as a Spiritual Calling 33:07 The Gift of Being Different 35:54 Teaching Kids Spiritual Awareness 40:37 Showing Up Through the Struggle 42:37 Facing the Enemy Within 48:54 Escaping the Victim Mentality 50:23 How We Abandon Ourselves 54:36 Breaking Free From Self-Pity 56:16 Manifestation with Consciousness 01:01:24 Finding Strength in Community 01:05:53 The Weight of Words and Actions 01:08:57 Letting Go of Hate and Grudges 01:19:44 The Wisdom of Kabbalah 01:21:40 How Madonna Discovered Kabbalah 01:27:25 Unlocking the Secrets of Life Through Spirituality 01:30:55 The Inner Battle With Toxic Thoughts 01:38:02 A Mother’s Deepest Fear 01:40:09 Learning to Accept Help 01:42:02 Freeing Yourself from Harsh Judgment 01:46:31 Four Steps to Inner Strength 01:53:13 Practicing Trust Beyond Logic 01:56:35 Finding Lessons In Life’s Pain 02:02:12 Releasing the Need to Control 02:04:06 Raising Spiritually Grounded Children 02:07:08 Why Overgiving Hurts Kids 02:10:01 The Dangers of Instant Gratification 02:12:06 What Is Your Soul’s Purpose? Episode Resources: Madonna | Website Madonna | Instagram Madonna | Facebook Madonna | YouTube Madonna | X Madonna | Flickr See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:24Jay Shetty?

  And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them.

• 2:06Jay Shetty?

  Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process. And once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees. So you keep every dollar you earn. Madonna, welcome to On Purpose. I am so grateful to be here with you today. Thank you for the honor and the opportunity.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:45Jay Shetty?

  I'm really, really happy to be with you after lots of FaceTime calls.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50Jay Shetty?

  And discussions about this conversation.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  We're finally. Good to finally be in person.

• 2:54Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, absolutely. And I wanted to start off by asking, you don't do a lot of interviews. We don't see you doing interviews, maybe even for the last nine, 10 years, give or take. What's your intention for being here today? Why now? Why today?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Well, in the past, I've usually done interviews to promote my work, whether that's music or a tour or film. But today I would like to talk about my spiritual life and the spiritual path that I've been on for over 28 years. This wisdom has helped me navigate the ups and downs of life, for lack of a better expression. People ask me a lot through the years, like, what is the reason you're still sane? What is the reason you keep going? Why have you not fallen by the wayside like other people? Definitely a lot of my peers who are no longer with us,

• 3:54Speaker 01

  like, what would you say is the key? And I would say that is my spiritual life. I absolutely would not be where I am or who I am if I did not have that. It's helped me enormously, as I said, navigate the ups and downs of life. So I feel like I would like to share that with people. So that's really the point of I'm not here to promote a product or I don't want anyone to buy anything. I just, I want to share something with people that has pretty much saved my life. That sounds dramatic, but it's true.

• 4:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it seems like it's something that's extremely meaningful to you and a deep part of your life that often I feel you don't get to share in other spaces. So even though it's been a part of your life for nearly three decades. Maybe you haven't shared parts of it before. What would your life look like if you didn't find it?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  I would believe that the physical world is all there is. I would believe all the illusions. And that would be my downfall. And that is most people's downfall.

• 5:05Jay Shetty?

  What does spirituality mean to you? Because I think that word itself means so many things to so many people.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Well, yes, I mean, a spiritual life or a spiritual path could be, mean a lot of things.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  I know that you have a spiritual path and, and for me, it's not really about like, whose is the best? Or, you know, it's whatever works for you. I've been studying Kabbalah for twenty nine years, so since nineteen ninety six. Yeah. It's a long time.

• 5:35Jay Shetty?

  It's a long time.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  And I'm not a frivolous person. I don't suffer fools gladly. If something, if I think there's something false about it, or corrupt, or not authentic, I wouldn't have stuck around for so long. I, I've had the same teacher for all this time. I feel like, almost like it's my responsibility to share with people. Because I feel like, I feel like people need guidance. People need enlightenment. And for me, a spiritual life is having an internal life. Because you know this, I'm sure, you know, if we get caught up in the belief system

• 6:18Speaker 01

  that our value in the world is based on people loving us, or other people's approval, or how much money you have, or how many fabulous outfits you have, or how many followers you have on Instagram. Those things don't make us happy. Those things don't bring us peace. So having an internal life and being able to look internally and having some kind of practice, whatever that might look like, your prayer, your meditations, that those, the time you take out of every day to stop and take stock, like contemplate. We live in a very busy, chaotic world. Lots of noise, lots of distraction.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  I mean, how many times have you heard people say, oh, you know, social media and like all the, you know, people can't walk down the street without listening to music. Everybody has to be visually stimulated all the time. Like, there is no peace. There is no quiet. We're, we're not comfortable being quiet with ourselves and.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Looking inward and asking ourselves, why am I here? Or what am I doing? Or what is my intention in this specific choice I'm making right now? Whether it's about my work or the way I'm raising my children, decisions that I make about everything, really.

• 7:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  I have to ask myself. And if you don't have a spiritual life, you're never going to stop and ask any questions. You're just going to plow through life. And if you just, and, and, and you're going to see everything that happens to you as just a random event. And I don't believe that anything is random. I think everything that happens to us is meant to happen to us, um, to teach us some kind of a lesson. But, you know, the question is, are you aware enough? Are you awake enough? Are you interested enough to find out what that reason is? Like, why did this happen to me? What is my lesson? I don't want to go through life seeing everything that happens to me as random, but I also don't want to go through life as a victim.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  And I've had a pretty challenging life. And it's easy to fall into the trap of feeling sorry for yourself or like being a victim or, you know, why, why isn't this happening to other people? Why is it happening to me? Why don't I have what that person has? I'm sure you know, the expression comparison is the killer of joy. So, you know, it's like, you gotta, to get out of that game, you have to have a spiritual life. You just have to.

• 8:44Jay Shetty?

  You're reminding me of

• 8:47Jay Shetty?

  something beautiful that I came across called the third space theory. Have you heard of it?

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 8:53Jay Shetty?

  It's this idea that as humans, around 50 years ago, we had three spaces. So we had work, we had home, and then you had a temple, a synagogue, a church, a community center, or a third space. And the point of that third space, it's kind of what you're saying, was a place that you could look back. At work and home, and you could reflect on your life, you could take stock, you could introspect. But as time's gone on, what's happened is we lost that third space.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:23Jay Shetty?

  We stopped going to temple, church, community, whatever.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  A place of self-reflection.

• 9:27Jay Shetty?

  A place of self-reflection. And we ended up with work and home. And then after the pandemic, we lost work. And so now we're in one space. And we don't have a different vantage point to where we are anymore, which is what I think you're saying.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Go back an even one more step that to me is like a prison. Get if you get, if you remove the spiritual life, spiritual practice, you remove the workplace. Then you you're in the home and then removed once more from home is you're looking at your phone.

• 10:00Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Which is even takes you out of home.

• 10:03Jay Shetty?

  It's a great point, yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  So.

• 10:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Where are you? You're nowhere.

• 10:07Jay Shetty?

  We're all living in the virtual world. Yeah, we're living in the virtual world, not even in the material world. We're just.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yes, but a virtual and a virtual world is not a bad world, but if you don't have consciousness, there's really no point to living.

• 10:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's yeah. So it's it's it's interesting to think about that because I feel like everyone can relate to the idea that if we all had, we need physical spaces to sometimes make us do internal things.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, some kind of ritualistic behavior has to happen.

• 10:36Jay Shetty?

  What have been your rituals? I'm intrigued. What I'm curious, what are your spiritual practices and rituals that have been so supportive and emblematic of your journey that have kept you going at the times, as you said, there were so many times you could give up or things could go wrong, or you kept pushing and you kept, they kept you locked. What were they? What are they?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Well, one really important thing is studying, making time every week to sit down and study. I mean, you can study.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  It's the Bible. You can study the poetry of Cahill Gibran, or you can study the Vedas, you know.

• 11:17Jay Shetty?

  And you did that, right? You actually studied different traditions on your

• 11:19Speaker 01

  I mean, to be honest, before I discovered Kabbalah, I was looking for answers and

• 11:26Jay Shetty?

  Why do you think that was? Why were you looking for answers?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Because I had everything that people would assume would give you happiness. I had a successful career. I had fame, fortune, monetary things, physical things. But I wasn't happy. And I naturally sought out. Well, when I was a dancer, I had a roommate. She was a Buddhist and she would get up and chant every day. And so I was very intrigued by that. Like, nothing bothered her. You know what I mean? Everything bothers me.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Everything bothers me. I'm, you know, I'm a Leo. I'm, I'm Italian. I'm very dramatic. I wouldn't say she was peaceful all the time, but I was just struck by her confidence and her knowingness that everything was happening for a reason. She never got upset about things. And this is in the beginning of my career, when I was living in New York and I was broke. And a lot of crazy things happened to me. Really scary, traumatic things. And I would always ask her. Her name is Mariana. I would always say, what, like, why are you like never upset? So I attributed that to her spiritual life, but it didn't speak to me. And then later on, I started practicing yoga, Ashtanga yoga.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  And my teacher, Eddie Stern, he still has a

• 12:52Jay Shetty?

  Love Eddie, he's great.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  You know Eddie?

• 12:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, he's amazing. I got quite caught up in and competitive about like first series, second series, third series. But one thing I noticed is that a lot of people would come into his practice, his studio where he taught. And they wouldn't even do the poses. They would just go and sit in front of the statue of Ganesh or light candles or prayer. And I realized, and Eddie pointed it out to me because sometimes I would have injuries. I would, or I would be traveling and I couldn't practice yoga. And he'd say, look, are you breathing? And I'd say yes. And he said, you're practicing yoga. So I realized that I was too still too caught up in the physical poses. And he's like, no, you don't understand. You're missing the whole point.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  The poses are just something that you do to breathe through, to calm your nervous system down and to bring you back to your center. And that really spoke to me. There was a big, um, now it was a painting on the wall of the yoga studio. It says, desire and detachment. And I, I said, what does that mean? And he said, well, of course, we want, we want all the beautiful things in life. We want all the pleasures. We want all the happiness. We want every, we want it all. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't be attached to it. Because then if you're attached to it and you don't have it, what's going to happen to you? So I studied that for a while and I studied Sanskrit. I had a teacher.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  And, you know, I learned that the vibrations of the letters, you know, had a calming effect on your nervous system and centered you and placed you firmly rooted on the earth. And all of that made sense to me. But then, again, nothing happens by accident. But I was pregnant with my daughter Lola, my oldest daughter. And I suddenly realized, I was living in LA, I suddenly realized, I'm going to be responsible for another human being. What am I going to teach her? I'm just, I'm like a meteor, like making my way through the, you know, the, on this planet. Like, you know, I'm, I have great survival instincts. I have a great work ethic.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm very ambitious, all of those things.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  But I was never like, I was just knocking them down, you know what I mean? And not like looking back, like I'm going to be somebody because that's, you know, that's why I came to New York in the first place. I will never go back to the nobody life I had when I was a child growing up.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  I definitely was fueled by an inner drive, but I would not say that I was spiritual or conscious. When I was pregnant, I suddenly realized I knew nothing. And I was a slave or a victim of other people's opinions of me. And I didn't have really, even though it looks like and looks like I was confident, brave, audacious, whatever, you know. Um, I, deep down inside, I was not. So I was at a dinner party.

• 16:10Jay Shetty?

  While you were pregnant?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was at a dinner party at my friend's in L.A. And there was a woman sitting next to me. And I knew her vaguely. She was, she's a costume designer. She was a costume designer. Her husband's a director. And she said, oh, you should come with me to class. And I said, what class? I'm, I'm open to classes, by the way. I love being a student. So what's the class all about? She said, there's a teacher there. It's something called Kabbalah. It's next to a synagogue. And I was like, wait, so he's Jewish? And she said, yeah, but it doesn't have anything to do with being Jewish.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  It's just a belief system, not a belief system, like a philosophy about life that, you know, you could learn a lot from. And I said, okay, I'll go. So I did. And that's how I met my teacher. And I literally would sit in the back of class for years. Mostly men were in the class at the time. It was, um, but everything that he said seemed to make so much sense to me and gave me courage to be who I am and who I'm meant to be and made me actually think about intention and a real sense of purpose. Cause my sense of purpose can't just be, I want to be rich and famous or I want to be popular or I want to sell a lot of records.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Because none of that lasts. But it wasn't until I went to class that I actually started thinking about those things. So I just kept going. And, um, here I am today. But, you know, motherhood or being a parent is really what, um, made me start asking questions that I most likely, I should have asked them sooner, but I didn't. Cause I was just caught up in my. So.

• 18:01Jay Shetty?

  I love that story for so many reasons, one of them being that my journey to my spirituality had certain similarities in that, not that I was pregnant, so definitely not that one, but I had a friend and friends who were starting to get interested in spirituality. And they invited me to hear a monk speak. And I'd seen monks while I was growing up, but I'd never really engaged with one or really understood what they did or meant. And I'm so glad I said yes to going along and I was very young, I was eighteen, nineteen years old. I wasn't even seeking. I was open and I was curious.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:39Jay Shetty?

  And to be honest, I was doing what everyone else was doing at that time when you're eighteen, nineteen year old kid, like.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Experimenting.

• 18:45Jay Shetty?

  Experimenting and doing everything else under the sun. But I'm so glad I went because now looking back, I find that after meeting the monks that I met, it gave my life a compass at a very early age that I'm so grateful for because it changed the entire trajectory of my life. I can't imagine what I would have ended up doing in the same way as you did. And it sounds dramatic, but it's true that without the group of friends that invited me to go along and and meet my teachers, who'd become my future teachers, I can't imagine what life could be like.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  And are those teachers still your teachers?

• 19:23Jay Shetty?

  Yes, absolutely, still since that time. So it's been nearly twenty years now.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  That's meaningful.

• 19:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, very meaningful.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  And are your friends that came with you still also studying or?

• 19:34Jay Shetty?

  One of those, one of those, yes, absolutely. One of those friends was my best man at my wedding. And he studies under the same teachers still to this day.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 19:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  The woman who took me to class, no. No. She doesn't stick with it.

• 19:48Jay Shetty?

  Are you still attached to her at all or not?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Yes, I am sometimes, yeah.

• 19:51Jay Shetty?

  It's amazing to hear that you had this ambition and this drive

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:57Jay Shetty?

  to become successful and at the same time, there was this spiritual calling.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:01Jay Shetty?

  That was almost happening simultaneously. How did you reconcile the two when? To the external eye, they could look very opposite. How did you actually see them?

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Like, look weird, you mean?

• 20:13Jay Shetty?

  Not weird, in the sense of, I think a lot of people assume that spirituality and success don't go together. A lot of people would think that-

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Well, that's absurd. Those are narrow-minded people. I mean, you need to be spiritual to be successful. Success is having a spiritual life, period. It's interesting, because I had this boyfriend some time ago, and

• 20:36Speaker 01

  after we broke up, we saw each other years later, and I was telling him about Kabbalah. He's like, "Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because you grew up as Catholic, I know how religious your mother was." And I was like, "No, no, that's not what it is at all. It's got nothing to do with religion." Everybody has to find the path that speaks to them and resonates with them. But I do think it's important to have one. And I dare say, if you didn't have a spiritual path, you wouldn't be as successful as you are today. I will make that assumption in your work, in your marriage, in your friendships, all your relationships. Honestly, it sounds like a really, like a cliche, your spiritual life, even.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  It's like, the reason, but it's just got a bad rap. You know, you, like, 100% can have a spiritual life and be successful. I wouldn't be here if I didn't have one. There's no way we're going to escape suffering. Even if we grew up with wealth and privilege, our challenges and our suffering is going to come to us in a different way. Radical acceptance is just accepting that what is happening to you is meant to happen to you, and that you're going to be okay. Whatever's happening to me that might be uncomfortable is obviously meant to happen to me, to teach me a lesson. And if I don't learn that lesson at that point, it's going to come up again.

• 22:00Jay Shetty?

  Let's talk about how your spiritual life has impacted your different roles, because you played so many roles in life. And let's start with artists, because that's what the majority of our viewers and our audience will connect with you on. Your spiritual life has directly impacted your art. When did you feel it was first introduced to your art? How was it introduced? How would you use it to inspire your art?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  About a year after I started studying, I made my Ray of Light album. And that is 100% influenced by my study, my spiritual practice. Like a door opened for me and I suddenly... And maybe I was spiritual without knowing it unconsciously. And some things happened, I mean, often things would happen where I would have visions or I would get ideas and I would manifest them. And if you're too busy to sit for a moment and think, wow, that's so amazing what just happened, I channeled that. Like you don't actually know that you're tapping into another dimension until you

• 23:04Speaker 01

  start paying attention to the other, to the idea that there is more to life than you and I sitting in this room on a chair. Like if you believe in energy and you believe in universal laws and you believe in quantum physics, like the possibilities are endless. And miracles, the idea of miracles is, is not a foreign concept. It's not a lucky strike, you know what I mean? It definitely affected my work. I became conscious of the fact that I was and am, I am channeling light. That's what I'm doing. I don't own it. It's not mine. I'm a vessel for it.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  I'm a vessel for this light, which in turn, my goal is to share with other people. Now, I can, I can do that through my work. I can do that through my music. I can do that through my relationships with people. I can do that as a friend. I can do that as a mother, as a parent. So you realize that it can, it informs every part of your life. But the one really important thing, well, one of the many important things that my teacher taught me was that I am not the owner of my talent. I am the manager. As long as you keep that consciousness and you're aware, like people who run to say, I did that, that was my idea.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I mean, you created an opportunity for yourself by allowing yourself to be a vessel for this, call it what you like, magic. I think it's magic. I think when you channel artistic ideas and you have creative visions, it's magic. And when you think it, overthink it, or you start thinking about how much of that you own, you stop it. That's why a lot of, I would say, this is my observation, that a lot of people have these great kind of meteoric careers. And they rise up and they take the world by storm and they influence the masses and

• 25:13Speaker 01

  they, and then they just, something happens and they can't handle the light and they're not even aware of it. And it, it, in a way, they fly too close to the light and it burns them. Yeah.

• 25:28Jay Shetty?

  That's, that's.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  And I would say that's really true about my, many of my peers that I had, I was lucky enough to know them.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Whether that's Prince or Michael Jackson or, or Jean-Michel Basquiat, the painter, like these are like people who had, just were.

• 25:47Jay Shetty?

  Channeling light.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Channeling. But I also don't think they understood like the concept of their, of their, what they were channeling and that, you know, there has to be some kind of restriction, there has to be some kind of filament, there has to be, you know, like people like to take drugs, right? Why? Cause it makes, they're, they're actually channeling light with their, you know, tripping on acid, but it's light with no restriction and then that's what kills you or burns you out.

• 26:20Jay Shetty?

  That was never your path to the light?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 26:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  No, no. No. Thank God, because everybody was.

• 26:26Jay Shetty?

  What kept you away from it when everyone else was doing it?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  The universe, God. Honestly, people ask me that all the time because I grew up, when I came to New York, when I was broke. And I had no friends, nowhere to live, no, nothing really. What protected me from, you know, I was held up at gunpoint, I was robbed, like, I was raped, I was like, all these horrendous things happened to me, but I just feel like I've, I've always had a guardian angel. It just, it took me a minute to figure out that, how blessed I was and that the universe was protecting me and, and looking out for me.

• 27:09Jay Shetty?

  Was that a realization that came after? Because I mean,

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Came after what?

• 27:13Jay Shetty?

  Well, when you talk about the events of, I mean, getting raped, being held at gunpoint, these are extremely traumatic, stressful. I mean, the most extreme tragic events people could go through in their life.

• 27:28Jay Shetty?

  The realization you're sharing today, how long, talk to me about the journey of having that experience and then getting to the realization you just mentioned, because I'm, I'm assuming it's not immediate.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 27:40Jay Shetty?

  And, and what is, so what was through that?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Well, first, there's just my determination that I think I was so, I, I had such an unhappy childhood that whatever happened to me in New York City, I was like, whatever happens to me is better than what, what my life was. So I'm gonna, I'm sticking around, I'm not going back. But you see, the worst things that happen to you are the best things that happen to you. Because if that had, if my childhood hadn't been what it had been, if I hadn't lost my mother, if I hadn't had all of these challenges as a child, I would have thought of my home as a place of comfort and I would have gone back. But I didn't, so that's what kept going.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  And then, you know, there are challenges in my career, even though, even though I was very successful, I went through many periods of time where the press was speeding up on me, I was demonized. What kept me going? I don't, I don't know. Like I said, guardian angels, but again, I wasn't conscious of it until I was pregnant. Then I start to see, like, everything started to, like, come into focus for me. But it's not, I make it sound like it's an easy thing, like studying, like, the more you know, the harder everything is. And the more enlightened you try to become, the more conscious you try to become, the more tests you have, the more, you know, it's like, why, like, like, the more you know,

• 29:07Speaker 01

  the more you realize you don't know. And the more you aspire to be conscious, the more you feel like everyone's trying to drag you down and take you out of it and convince you that it's not true, or, you know, the tests.

• 29:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  And, you know, life is a test, let's face it.

• 29:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I was thinking about, as you were saying that a bit earlier of managing that balance between recognizing you are a manager of the light

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 29:38Jay Shetty?

  and you are not the light itself. I was thinking of this story about Marcus Aurelius, where he was followed around the Roman town square by an assistant.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 29:49Jay Shetty?

  And the assistant's only job was to whisper in his ear, "You're just a man, you're just a man."

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 29:55Jay Shetty?

  Because people would praise him and people would shower him with accolades and

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:00Jay Shetty?

  compliments, and the assistant would remind him, and it said that that was done so that he could always remain grounded. I can imagine for you to not fall into the trap of believing you're the light is extremely difficult when you're one of the best-selling artists of all time, when you, like you said, you named the company, there's only The Beatles, yourself, Michael Jackson, that sit in this esteemed group of individuals who've achieved incredible things. How did you hold on to that beautiful belief that you're not the light and you're a manager of the light when?

• 30:38Jay Shetty?

  Anyone else could easily believe they were.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  By continuing to have a spiritual practice, a spiritual life, by continuing to study, like always pulls you back to center.

• 30:52Jay Shetty?

  Were you able to keep it up when you were like on tour or when you were building your album?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 30:56Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  It drove everyone crazy. My manager's like, why can't we have shows on this night? Or why are you late? Cause I'm, cause I'm praying. Like what, you know what I mean? Like,

• 31:06Jay Shetty?

  Would you pray before a show?

• 31:07Speaker 01

  People who are only focused on, absolutely pray before every show, but people who are focused on making money um are definitely not focused on spiritual life. You have to have your feet in both worlds. And um I say,

• 31:23Jay Shetty?

  You literally wouldn't do a show on a day because that, that was your study day?

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or I would be late.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. I get a lot of shit for being late.

• 31:34Jay Shetty?

  Walk me through.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Honestly, it's really hard to balance being a parent, having work, having a spiritual life. You're, you're constantly juggling. You know, there's, it's not, there's not a lot of time to rest. And if people don't recognize that, then they're just going to look at you in a very one percent like superficial way and go, you're late. It's like, but you don't understand what I was doing before I got, I became late.

• 31:59Jay Shetty?

  I, I want to talk about how spirituality affected you, your role as a.

• 32:05Jay Shetty?

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• 32:48Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 32:56Jay Shetty?

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• 33:41Jay Shetty?

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• 33:48Speaker 02

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• 34:17Jay Shetty?

  Mother. Obviously, you said that becoming a mother yourself is actually what even began that enlightenment, it kind of began that journey. It felt like a responsibility. It felt like a moment of change. How is?

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Well, my mother died after giving birth to all my brothers and sisters. So, literally, like, the year after my youngest sister was born, my mother died. So I always equated motherhood with death. So, and I also equated it with, I could see she was not happy. I could see she wasn't living the life she wanted to live. I equated it with death, or I equated it with no freedom, or I equated it with no life, except taking care of other people. And so, when I started, when I came to New York and I started my career, I was like, no, this is not for me. I don't want to be a mother. I don't want that. I wasn't saying it out loud, but I was thinking that. Like, why would I give all of this up? I worked so hard for it. Well, one day I...

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Found that I was pregnant and I and I had been running away from it for so long. And I wouldn't say I was in a stable relationship, but I loved her father. So I wasn't really thinking it through, but I was like, okay, this happened, this happened to me. So it's meant to happen to me. So.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  But honestly, what? What the hell am I going to teach my daughter? Like, how am I going to guide her? I've just been living this, you know, completely selfish life, really. That, you know, turned out good in many ways, but um, in reality, I was doing everything for my own self. And I also kind of thought, well, you know, okay, I'm pregnant, so I'm going to be a mother, so I'll figure it out, I'll work it out. But honestly, I was scared shitless. And I wasn't in a traditional relationship and once again, like, this is the story of my life. I keep binding myself in unconventional or untraditional or unusual or

• 36:25Speaker 01

  unfamiliar places and I have to keep adjusting. And I say that, I would say that that is also the reason that I am still here and still going and have the strength to fight things or just to to survive. Um, because being too comfortable in life, I would say is the downfall of a lot of people who started off taking chances, taking risks.

• 36:51Jay Shetty?

  Is that something success does to you, do you think, where in the beginning you take risks and you get out?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I feel like that happens to other people, not me. Um, I think I've always been felt like an outsider in life. I felt like an outsider growing up in Michigan. I felt like an outsider when I came to New York. I felt like an outsider when I moved to LA and. Had my Hollywood life, you know, I always felt like I did when I was in high school. I don't fit in and not fitting in is what saves you. And that, you know, studying Kabbalah, no, nobody else was interested in it, not my friend group. And if I would speak about it to people, they'd be like, oh, that's really interesting. Having a spiritual life isn't necessarily going to make you popular.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  But if you're a conscious person searching for truth, then it's going to be interesting. Like, I'm interested in your spiritual path, your spiritual life. I want to know what you do, what it does for you. I want to know how you do it, because I'm curious. And curiosity and being an outsider and and those are the things that actually save you, even though it's not supported in our society, like to think outside the box, to take the road less traveled by,

• 38:13Speaker 01

  to not be so concerned with approval, public approval. And now we live in a world where everyone follows algorithms. And algorithms are the opposite of taking chances. They are the opposite of being unique. They're the opposite of spiritual life. They're the opposite of consciousness. That's why artificial intelligence cannot duplicate consciousness. It can duplicate doing things, following formulas, but it can't duplicate consciousness. So now have we gotten really off the

• 38:50Jay Shetty?

  I love it, though. It's great. It's great to be in your stream of consciousness. And, and on that, on that point, I'll get back. But I often get asked the question right now when I'm on panels of, do I ever believe that AI will have a soul? And my response is always, I just hope that the people who are building AI have a soul. Because ultimately, it's becoming a reflection of whatever's inside of us. But I digress, going, going back to, going back to how, gone, you were gonna say something.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  No, you're, you're right. Yep, the people who make it, but are they?

• 39:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's the most important part.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  That's the scariest part.

• 39:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, the intention and the purity.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Intention and consciousness.

• 39:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just repeat that like a mantra. Consciousness is everything. Consciousness is everything, but a lot of people don't even know what that is.

• 39:38Jay Shetty?

  When you became a mom and you're trying to teach your children about, I guess, I'm assuming you wanted, yeah, you wanted to pass some of these teachings on.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, they grew up learning it and studying it, studying or listening to me study with my teachers or listening to other people. And they would bounce back and forth between thinking it was silly or something weird that mom does or, but I see that it has impacted all of them.

• 40:06Jay Shetty?

  What makes you see that?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Because they study. Not all of them, but I feel like my children who have a spiritual life are happier than the ones who do not.

• 40:18Jay Shetty?

  But obviously, they could start at any time. It could, it could happen.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  I'm not, you know, there's no coercion and spirituality. It's like, if you, either it speaks to you or it doesn't.

• 40:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I remember my dad was trying to get us to do things for so long and you rejected it so hard because.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yes, well, that's the other thing. You children always reject their, their parents, the path they follow, their belief systems. They think it's stupid and then they, they come back around a little bit.

• 40:45Jay Shetty?

  Totally.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, there's that famous quote that says, "The day you realize your parents were right, your kids are telling you that you're wrong." And, and I think it's an often common experience that people have.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:58Jay Shetty?

  How did Kabbalah impact your, and your spiritual practice, impacted your role as a daughter? Because like you said, you lost your mother when you were five.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Uh huh. To a certain extent, I resented my father growing up because I felt like he wasn't present for us emotionally. Um, he did have a lot of responsibilities and he's a deeply Catholic person, but I don't, I felt like he followed his spiritual path or he followed Catholicism because that's how it was, that's how he was raised, that's how it was done. When I was growing up, if I wanted to ask a question about why do we do this? Why are we genuflecting? Why are we receiving the body and blood of Christ? Why is, my father didn't have an answer. He'd just say, that's what, that's what is written. And what drew me to Kabbalah was that I could ask questions and there were answers.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  And questions were invited, which is the opposite of how I was brought up. So I thought I looked at my father as kind of like a religious robot. You know what I mean? Not that he's not a good person, but I didn't want to be a robot. And especially having a spiritual life, I started to

• 42:12Speaker 01

  see my father as a human being and see that he was a human that made mistakes and that he did the best with what he was taught, what he was given. When those cylinders start clicking in your head, you start to have a lot more compassion, not just for your parents, but for all people who don't see life the way you see it, that you don't agree with. It brought me to a place where I could have more compassion for him.

• 42:41Jay Shetty?

  I mean, that seems like a really big gift.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:44Jay Shetty?

  To have that understanding and I could agree. I think spiritual context creates so much compassion when you are able to zoom out and look at someone's life. Like I remember the moment I really had compassion for my dad was when I visited the home he grew up in, which was this room. I mean, I can't even compare it to this. His home was like probably just from here to here. Like his entire home and they shared a bathroom with twenty, thirty families.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:19Jay Shetty?

  And we went outside, I was nine years old, we're in India and there's cockroaches around us in Pune. There's cockroaches around his home, there's bats in the, you know, and it's just like, and inside and I was nine years old and I couldn't believe that, you know, that's where my dad grew up. And it was almost like something clicked where I was like, I, unless I saw that, I wouldn't have had that experience because it was always easier to assume that their life.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's the thing. My, like I say to my kids all the time, like you're judging me by the chapter you arrived in, like this is not how my life has been. And it's really hard for kids to see that.

• 43:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, going there was probably one of the best things that ever happened to me because it's what you're saying, I was able to go to a previous chapter in someone's life. And even though my childhood, I was, we weren't well to do, or we didn't have anything, but we didn't have a lot. Going to see that, I was like, oh gosh, my life is a million times better than this. And and having that context was huge for me. I want to hear about how you were able to apply these principles in the difficulty of the big things you're talking about, because whether it's reconnecting with our parents, whether it's recovering from being raped, whether it's dealing with these challenges you've dealt with, as you said, it doesn't happen overnight, it's not easy. It is the level of study and work.

• 44:43Jay Shetty?

  But talk to me about the emotional journey of shifting from a victim to what you, whatever you would call this on the other side, because it would be very natural for anyone to feel that way. I want to hear about the emotional journey and the spiritual journey you went on. What were some of the steps or stages that you saw that if anyone who's listening or watching can recognize and potentially relate?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  The first thing is you're suffering all the time. If you don't have a spiritual life, like you're just suffering all the time. And and you really think that whatever's happening to you is like something that's never gonna end. And you drew the wrong card.

• 45:22Jay Shetty?

  That's how you feel, yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  That's how I used to think. And even now, since I've been studying, there's been times where I've been really challenged and really suffered uh in certain situations. And I, if I didn't have a spiritual life, I I don't know how I want to, you know, there were moments in my life where I wanted to cut my arms off, I wanted, I actually contemplated suicide. And that probably sounds really weird coming from me, because I'm not that, I'm not emo, you know what I mean? But I was like, I can't take this pain anymore. But as soon as you understand that what's happening to you is

• 46:02Speaker 01

  A challenge that you are karmically meant to experience and learn from and evolve to a higher level of consciousness, then you can look at that event, that experience, as a lesson and not punishment.

• 46:20Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. What, what pain at the time pushed you to that place of potentially wanting to take your own life?

• 46:27Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not in the blame game. That's the thing. I used to be that way. And uh, I used to always wanna seek revenge, you know, if somebody did to me wrong. Um, or I would pronounce loudly, oh, well, you know, they'll get their own karma, well, whatever, you know what I mean? And even knowing about karma doesn't mean you're a grown up. It doesn't mean you're not being a victim. Um, but I would say probably one of the most painful moments in my life where I, I honestly couldn't

• 47:06Speaker 01

  see the force for the trees was when I went through a custody battle with my son. And um, I, you know,

• 47:19Speaker 01

  even though my marriage didn't work out, I mean, a lot of people's marriages don't work out. They marry the wrong people. They're not aligned. They're not meant for each other. Someone taking, trying to take my child away from me was like, um, they might as well just kill me. That's really how I was thinking. And I was on tour at the time. So I had to go on stage every night. I would just be lying on the floor of my dressing room, sobbing. I really thought it was like, it was the end of the world. I couldn't take it. I just couldn't take it. Um, but thank God, I don't feel that way anymore. And I had to keep, you know, studying, like continuing my studies and continuing on my spiritual

• 48:02Speaker 01

  path, like, helped me to understand that, you know, the enemy is within.

• 48:09Jay Shetty?

  Talk to me about that.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  You know, lots of people do lots of bad things and make a lot of bad choices or make choices that cause other people pain, suffering, or chaos, or whatever.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  But at the end of the day, I needed to learn some lessons. And I can see that with the benefit of hindsight, but I couldn't see it at the time. And also, I was abandoned as a child by my own mother. And so, losing a child, it was like life repeating itself. I couldn't accept it. And so, it caused me a lot of suffering. And not being able to accept things causes all of us a lot of suffering. So, yes, and now, you know, I'm happy to say that I'm really good friends with my son.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  But I couldn't see it then. I really thought it was the end of the world. So, you know, thank God I had a spiritual life.

• 49:09Jay Shetty?

  Was the lesson radical acceptance?

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It took me a long time, actually, several years.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Radical acceptance is just accepting that what is happening to you is meant to happen to you and that you're gonna be okay.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not an instant thing. There's no such thing as an instant thing. There's no way we're going to escape suffering, even if we grow up with wealth and privilege. And, you know, we didn't grow up in a small room, you know? Our challenges and our suffering is gonna come to us in a different way. I can give you another example of radical acceptance, and that is, and this is something that my teacher shared with me. About a year and a half ago, I was rehearsing for my tour, a tour, and I... I got a bacterial infection and I, one minute I was alive and dancing around and the next minute I was in the ICU unit of a hospital and I woke up from being unconscious for four

• 50:15Speaker 01

  days. I got out of the hospital, they took me off of, you know, the ventilator, I started to breathe on my own. And I had something, something, it's called sepsis and it's like, it can kill you.

• 50:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's really bad.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  And everybody recovers at a different rate. And so, you know, I've always seen myself as superwoman. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, this is gonna, I'm gonna kick this, I'm gonna be good, I'm getting back into rehearsals. And I had no strength, I had no energy, I couldn't get out of bed and I didn't know when it was gonna end. And I used to talk to my teacher all the time and he's like, the sooner you accept what's happening to you and that you don't know when it's gonna end, the sooner it's gonna end. That made so much sense to me. And of course it did. But, I mean, I've heard some people never recover from it, completely never recover and have their, like, full

• 51:06Speaker 01

  health again. So, again, it's the same idea, same concept. Like, if you sit around feeling sorry for yourself, oh, woe is me, or poor me, or this is, like, I don't accept it, I will not accept it. Well, then you're just gonna be swimming and suffering.

• 51:25Jay Shetty?

  You reminded me of something I read in a, it's not a spiritual book, but it has a similar message. It's called Culture Code by Daniel Coyle. And he talks in this book about how when soldiers were out at war, a lot of them wanted to believe they'd be back by Christmas. And there were the others that accepted that they had no idea when they were gonna get home. And he talks about how that those who accepted that they had no idea when they were gonna get home, were actually happier and were able to endure what they were going through a lot easier than those who hoped they'd get back on Christmas and then didn't.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Yes, it's like the Viktor Frankl book.

• 52:07Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Same concept.

• 52:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly. And it's such, it's, when, when I hear it from those really extreme scenarios.

• 52:16Jay Shetty?

  You're like, wow, if Viktor Frankl can think that, you know, in the experience that he had, you go, okay, well, and Edith ego with the gift.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 52:26Jay Shetty?

  You go, wow, like, yeah, if you can have that experience there, then then there must be some truth to that.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 52:31Jay Shetty?

  Because how could you accept that when it was when you were going through the worst?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's really, really tough. Going back to your experience of that, where, what would you say, because you mentioned karma there? And this idea of choices we make and lessons we need to learn and karma almost being this experience of learning the lessons.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 52:55Jay Shetty?

  How do you see karma? How do you define karma from your learnings and studies? And let's stop there and then I'll ask the second question after that.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Hmm. My personal understanding is that our souls choose the lives that we are born into, the circumstances we are born into,

• 53:16Speaker 01

  that our souls are perfect. But then we're born into a life which is

• 53:22Speaker 01

  one challenge after a next, after, after the next, and that we, our journey is to navigate and to like see

• 53:33Speaker 01

  that each challenge that happens to us is our karmic destiny. It's energy, it's the law of, it's quantum physics, it's cause and effect. Whatever's happening to me that might be uncomfortable is obviously meant to happen to me to teach me a lesson. And if I don't learn that lesson at that point, I'm gonna, it's gonna come up again and again and again, until I learn it. And accept that it's a lesson, not a punishment. So that's how you get out of victim mentality also.

• 54:06Jay Shetty?

  What was the lesson that kept repeating for you?

• 54:11Jay Shetty?

  And took you a bit longer than you would have liked to learn? What was the one that kept showing up?

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Betrayal or abandonment, sometimes they go hand in hand. But it really kept me, like I saw a lot of people or I felt and experienced that I was constantly being either abandoned or betrayed. So that kept me in a state, sometimes often like feeling sorry for myself, stuck in a place of blaming others and not taking responsibilities for, well, how did I bring this upon myself? Or why, asking the question, well, why is this happening to me over and over again? Obviously, I need to learn something.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  I think everybody, if they think about it, like what is the thing that always comes back to you or like for everybody is something different, obviously. I think the abandonment thing was the greatest lesson to, that it could teach me, that I could stop being destroyed by it or paralyzed by it, was to think of all, like, how am I not showing up for other people? How am I abandoning other people?

• 55:30Jay Shetty?

  How am I abandoning myself?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  How long have I been not listening to myself, my inner truth, my inner voice? Yes, and we all say goodbye to our inner selves at some point or another, until something wakes us up. Push has to come to shove for everybody. There's just no way to escape it. So that's something that, as a concept that you have to get your head around. There's no running away from being tested. There's no running away from experiencing pain, suffering, whether it's physical or emotional.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  I mean, and that obviously that takes life experience and living and, you know, going, okay, everything's going well for me. I'm so happy. Everything's great. Oh, no, this is like, this is a failure. People are writing negative shit about me like, you know, or this relationship ended, or this person cheated on me, or this, you know, like, all these things that happen to you. Rejection. Like, and then you go, and you go, no, I'm not happy. If you're gonna go through life, like, being a slave to these like, ups and downs, you're just gonna be like, I don't know how you can last, obviously. I mean, it's obvious to me. I don't know if it's obvious to

• 56:50Speaker 01

  you or anybody who's watching this, but I don't know how we can maintain our sanity. And especially now, I mean, when people lived simpler lives and we didn't see what was going on in the world and we didn't, like, we weren't so connected like we are because of technology and the internet, whatever. It's hard not to get like anxious or start blaming or taking sides or feeling, you know what I'm saying?

• 57:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I loved, I loved what you said. This one line will stay with me for a long time. I really, really thought it was beautiful. You said, "We all say goodbye to our inner selves at some point." And, and that really landed because that's why it feels like we're coming home to ourselves when you, and I think everyone who's listening or watching can, if they've started their spiritual journey, they've started their reconnection journey, they know what that feeling's like, where it's like, yeah, wait, when I left myself and now I'm coming back to myself.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Yes. I always say, what was I thinking before I was thinking?

• 58:00Jay Shetty?

  Right.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  I don't even know.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  So I was just thinking about myself. But ironically and paradoxically, when you're just thinking about yourself and consumed with yourself, you're actually not connected to yourself at all.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 58:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. When so how how does it change now when you go through betrayal or you go through rejection or any of those things that you talked about? How do you process it differently now with your spiritual practices than you did before? What's the different experience you have of it?

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Well, I spend less time feeling sorry for myself, being a victim, blaming, and more time thinking, okay, why why did this happen to me? What's the lesson? I mean, I go to that sooner.

• 58:47Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Than I did before.

• 58:49Jay Shetty?

  What's the difference between self blame and accountability? Because I feel a lot of people fall into the trap of now you don't go and blame other people, but you blame yourself and you go, I I messed up. I should have chosen right. I should have done this.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Okay, well, self reflection and acknowledging and being accountable for your behavior is not the same as feeling guilty. That feeling guilty is just you're consumed with your ego.

• 59:11Jay Shetty?

  Faming yourself.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're not going to get anywhere with that. This just stops any kind of growth from happening.

• 59:18Jay Shetty?

  It's pretty amazing to say that you can speed up to that point of asking yourself that question of what can I learn from this? I mean, that's the ultimate question.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And believe me, it's not something that stays with me all the time. It's like sometimes I forget and I'm like, oh, I'm doing this again. I'm doing it again. I'm falling back into a familiar pattern. Yeah. But if you don't know, then you're not like it's important to know. Again, not beat up on yourself. Well, okay, I made a mistake. What can I learn from it?

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Swallow your pride. Tell your ego to shut up, basically.

• 59:58Jay Shetty?

  You mentioned the word manifesting earlier.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:01Jay Shetty?

  And channeling and being a vessel. And I wanted to ask you, because manifesting becomes very popular in the world today as a concept.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:10Jay Shetty?

  It's at least out there. People understand the word. Now, when people would look at your career, they would assume you've manifested incredible amounts of success for yourself, incredible amounts of wins and all the rest of it.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:26Jay Shetty?

  Talk to us about your process of manifestation. What does it actually look like?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  If you're manifesting things and you're not conscious that it's a gift from the universe, from the light, from the creator, whatever you want to call it. If you're not aware of that and you're not conscious, then, okay, you you invented something. Great. You created this thing that now is selling billions. But everything becomes finite when you're not manifesting with the with the consciousness that you are channeling something. You don't own it. So that's a big thing.

• 1:01:10Jay Shetty?

  That's the key part.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:01:13Jay Shetty?

  So whatever.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  So if I have a successful show, if I have a successful, if anything happens to me successfully, like is perceived as a success in the outside world, I just say, you know, that's I I how blessed am I? I manifested that with the help of God.

• 1:01:36Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  I didn't do it on my own. I do nothing on my own. And if you mani- if you think you're manifesting on your own in your you're like an ostrich with your head in the sand. And there will be an end to whatever you're manifesting.

• 1:01:53Jay Shetty?

  So if someone desires something, they've got to recognize that it's not their hand, it's something that they're willing to become.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it requires work to.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Be conscious.

• 1:02:08Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  It requires work to see that you're channeling something and being a vessel for something.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  So you do have your part in it, but you're not on your own. That's the point.

• 1:02:20Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. And and a lot of us feel like I'm gonna do this. When I do this, I'll get this. And when I get this, then I will be this person.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  But that's desire for selfish reasons.

• 1:02:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  You're, you know, manifesting success is whenever you want something for the sake of sharing. When you want something just for yourself, like I'll be happy when I have ten Bugattis and a mansion in every major city. And I'm the brand ambassador of Louis Vuitton. Um, no offense to Louis Vuitton, just throwing that out there. But you know what I mean? Like those things like really make people happy. But it's it's short-lived. And sooner or later, everybody comes to that realization anyways.

• 1:03:03Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  It's just whether it's sooner or later.

• 1:03:07Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  And these are the things I I talk about this in in our studies. You know, let's get back to why I'm here. And my intention is to share my spiritual life with people. We talk about in our studies. We talk about manifesting and we talk about um being a channel. And, you know, I share in one of the studies, I talk about um writing my first song, for example, and how I taught myself how to play the drums. And then I, my friend, my boyfriend at the time was in a band and he taught me how to play guitar, like just simple chords. And when nobody was around, I would start playing with all the instruments and start

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  without thinking, without any like, I'm gonna be this or I'm gonna be that. Let me just, I just sat down and wrote a song for the first time. And I was and I was very conscious at that moment after it happened. Where did that come from? Well, how did that happen? I didn't grow up with musicians. I didn't grow up with songwriters. No one, I didn't have a goal to be that. Where did it come from? And so when you start like opening your eyes to that, where did, how did that happen? Where did that come from? Then you see, you see the, the possibilities, you see the magic of the universe of life. And you see that, you know, that was a, that was a gift.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Some angel showed up in my room and, you know, what am I going to do with that gift? So these have, these moments happen to you throughout life. They happen to everybody, whether you're saving someone's life or, or

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  you have this incredible idea for some life-saving invention, you know what I mean? We're, we're all blessed with those moments and it's, you know, it's really, the important thing is to acknowledge where that came from. That's really manifesting.

• 1:05:06Jay Shetty?

  I love that. That, that's my favorite explanation and manifestation I've ever heard.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:05:11Jay Shetty?

  Truly, it really is because I think what often happens in substitute of what you said is we have an idea and then we try and manufacture that set of inputs and outputs again to get that again. And then it doesn't work.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:05:29Jay Shetty?

  And then we're confused because like, wait a minute, last time I did this and did this and did this. Then I got this and now I'm trying to do it again. And then you get stuck because now you think you can't do it.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:05:39Jay Shetty?

  But the reality is that's just a very functional way of looking at something that's far beyond input, output and manufacturing. You can't manufacture to manifest. It doesn't make sense.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 1:05:53Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I really, really like that. I really, really appreciate that definition. And I think that's gonna help a lot of people because I think the way it's being talked about right now is just being, be clear about your goals and be really clear about what you want and.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  I mean, that's important too. Say out loud what you want out of life.

• 1:06:13Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  That is important, but this, it's, you're, it's, you're in a partnership. It's that, that's. Really what's important to remember.

• 1:06:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  And we become our environments as well. So we want to surround ourselves with people who with like minded individuals. And if you are around people who also are attaining to reach a higher level of consciousness or want to know the deeper meanings of life or want to look inward and figure out why, what their karmic destiny is, or even take into consideration the idea of karma. I mean, you need that also because if you don't have that support system, then you can also fall back into the trap of recreating formulas that work or trying to capture some magical moment and make it magic again.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  And that's just our ego taking over and telling us, you know, I did that.

• 1:07:09Jay Shetty?

  I did that, I can do it again.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and you can't.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:07:13Jay Shetty?

  One of my favorite ways of thinking about it, especially when you said it's a partnership, is when we look at the universe, everything's always serving. So the sun's providing light and heat. Water is obviously giving us life, oxygen exists, trees are giving us shade and fruits and flowers. And so. This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with wifi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast.

• 1:07:55Jay Shetty?

  Choose a cellar or northeast regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip. This episode is brought to you by Orange Theory Fitness. One of the best investments you can make is in your own strength. The choices you make today can help shape how you feel for years to come. Orange Theory Fitness provides a one hour workout to build strength, burn fat and build muscle with an expert coach guiding you every step of the way. Head to orangestory.com/OnPurpose to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage in studio for details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

• 1:08:39Jay Shetty?

  We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. In order to really be in partnership with the universe, one has to want to serve because everything is designed to serve and give. And everything's designed to give and serve and provide.

• 1:09:22Jay Shetty?

  And so when we're not serving, we're actually acting against the universe.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:27Jay Shetty?

  Because everything in the universe is designed simply to give. We're wired for generosity but educated for greed. And when that juxtaposition comes up against itself, it just creates friction. It's like we all feel better when we do something for someone else.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:09:42Jay Shetty?

  We all feel more joy when you take care of someone in need, more than if you did it for yourself. And the science and the research backs up as well. This isn't some woo-woo spiritual idea.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  No, it's absolutely the truth.

• 1:09:55Jay Shetty?

  But it's amazing how our conditioning and education is so the opposite that we all believe that.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Every man for himself.

• 1:10:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:03Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's the statement.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:06Jay Shetty?

  How much unconditioning does it take for us to lose the every man for himself mindset? What does that look like in your spiritual practice and journey, especially?

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  And not fall back into that trap, you mean?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  To continue to have a spiritual life, spiritual practice, to study.

• 1:10:22Jay Shetty?

  I love how simple it is.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  To stop every, you know, whether every day, once a week.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  You, if people don't have some kind of ritualistic moment in their life, like I said, whether it's every day or a few times a week, that like, what's gonna stop you?

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I, you have to have that moment where you're thinking about what you've done, thinking about what you'd like to do, thinking about what, you know, have I capitalized on the opportunities that have come my way? Not. Monetarily, spiritually, like what did I do to help someone? What have I done for others?

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  I mean, that's really the only way you can be successful in life.

• 1:11:13Jay Shetty?

  What were you trying to channel when you were creating in your music? And what were you trying to do to help people? What was?

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Well, in the beginning, I just wanted to be somebody.

• 1:11:21Jay Shetty?

  Right.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  I just wanted to be somebody, like I wanted to have a voice. I wanted to make a difference in the world, but I wasn't clear about what that meant. Now I'm clear about what it means.

• 1:11:30Jay Shetty?

  What is it? What does it mean today?

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  That everything I say has weight and gravity and that words are powerful and actions are powerful. And I always ask myself, like, why am I doing this? Why do I wanna, why, why is this song important to me? Why is this performance important to me? Why is this conversation we're having right now important to me? That's really the difference is like having intention and consciousness. We're really like, I'm repeating myself over and over again. I can't think of other words that capture that, but self-awareness. Self-awareness doesn't really do it because self-awareness kind of implies like selfishness. You know what I mean? A day at the spa.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Not that that's not something to be enjoyed. I could, I could use a day at the spa right now. Sure. My roof has been leaking for a month. Yeah. I want to go to the spa. That's okay, but that's not going to bring me lasting happiness.

• 1:12:30Jay Shetty?

  But I, I think that's the reality of it, right? Like when you look at your experience, there's this. Everyone's experience is this paradox where it's like you have the highest highs, the lowest lows. You have a life that of course you need everyday self-care, but there's also what is lasting happiness? And these bigger questions. We all live in this world, but we're not of this world. It's, it's almost like everything that it makes more sense to recognize it's both and as opposed to either or.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Well, you have to live in the paradox.

• 1:13:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  It's like the greatest amount of light is where there's darkness. And you can reveal the most amount of light when you're in a dark room. You turn on the light when you're in a room that's already. Light, what do you, there's no effort made. So should we look for darkness? You know what I mean? Should we, but no, but when we are in that space where we're feeling dark, where we're feeling an absence of light, an absence of hope, an absence of inspiration, of vision, then you have to, those are the moments, the challenging moments where you say, you have to say to yourself, this is my opportunity to bring light to a dark place.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  You know, spiritual wisdom is not helpful when everything's going your way. It's helpful when you're challenged. And when you're happy, it's, it's helpful to remember that at any given time, in any moment, it could be gone. So don't take it for granted. Have humility, be grateful when things are going your way. And when you're being tested, also be grateful. That's a hard one. That was a hard one for me. It still is.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  And, but I'm glad that I know what I know.

• 1:14:19Jay Shetty?

  One of the key aspects of this beautiful study series that you've created is, we've talked about some of the themes today. We've talked about karma, there's manifestation, there's desire, there's all of these themes that exist. And one of the big ones that really stood out to me was forgiveness. Because, you know, when I listened to you today and I even watched the studies that you created that I'm hoping our audience will go and watch and appreciate and learn from as well. You've conquered and continue to try to conquer some really difficult emotions, like really, really difficult things. And I feel like forgiveness for us in the world today is probably one of the hardest things for us,

• 1:15:04Jay Shetty?

  whether we've been betrayed, whether we've been lied to, whether we've been exploited, whether we've been taken advantage of. And we always hear the age old phrase of forgiveness is for you, it's not for them. And you hear these things, but it's.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Wait, who says that?

• 1:15:19Jay Shetty?

  It's, I mean, it's common like verbiage that exists in the world at least of this idea that, you know, don't hold on to grudges.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Well, you shouldn't, we shouldn't. And it is ultimately liberating for us to forgive. But obviously the world benefits from our.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Empathy or ability to forgive.

• 1:15:40Jay Shetty?

  Talk to us about that conditioning.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Well, I'm a fighter, you know, if somebody messes with me, they're gonna get it.

• 1:15:46Jay Shetty?

  And you've always been like that?

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Yes, but you know, when things happen to you and there's not a tangible enemy that you can like, put your finger on, like, what are you gonna do? You have to lean into radical acceptance. Um, but you know, there's, there are things, you know, there are things that have happened to me in my life that I just thought, I, I will never, I will never forgive this person. I will never. Now, I just don't, I don't wanna have those feelings anymore. Cause they're really, it's a prison and it's poison. To not be able to forgive and to live in a state of like, holding a grudge or hating someone or wanting them to suffer.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  It's like a kind of poison. It's like a kind of cancer. But that's why it's important to find a way to forgive even people that you perceive as your biggest enemies. For a really long time, it was my brother.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Um, who died recently because I think the hardest ones are the people that you feel like you're the, like they're, you're the closest to, they're your greatest ally. And they turn on you. The people that hurt you the most are the people that you love the most. And when life doesn't go the way that you expected it to go, that you suddenly that this pain is unbearable and then you think what's gonna save you is to think vengeful thoughts or to never forgive, like that's gonna give you some kind of power. Magical power. It doesn't, just weighs you down and eats away at you. And is poisonous. So having to forgive my brother, knowing that I had to forgive my brother was, you know,

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  it's like your ego dances around it. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll, I'll get to it. I'll get to calling him up or talking to him or being his friend or helping him. But eventually I did and.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  I know I'm being mysterious. If someone you love deeply betrays you and does something that shows that they have no consciousness in that moment that they made that choice to do that. Um, it's, it's really, it's a bitter pill for me to swallow. I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine that lots of people feel this way.

• 1:18:01Jay Shetty?

  I'd agree.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  For my brother, I didn't speak to him for, you know, for years, years and years. And it was him, uh, being ill, um, and ca- and reaching out to me and saying, I need your help. And me having that moment, like, am I gonna help my enemy? You know?

• 1:18:24Jay Shetty?

  That's how it felt.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I just did. And I ended up, and, and I felt so relieved. And it was such a load off my back, such a weight that was removed, baggage that I could put down to finally be able to be in a room with him and holding his hand, even if he was dying and saying, I, I love you and I forgive you. That was really important. And that was another thing that I realized when I woke up in the hospital. Forgiveness, that word came to my mind, like, I have to forgive people. Cause I was there, I was almost there on the other side. And I, I had a conscious moment and my mother appeared to me.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  And she said, do you want to come with me? And I said, no. My assistant was in the room with me, but I was still unconscious, but she heard me say no. And then when I did eventually wake up, I realized that the no was about me needing to forgive and, and make good with people that I still held grudges against. So, and interestingly, I, well, I wrote a song about him. I, I'm working on new music and I wrote a song called Fragile, which is about my brother. And then I wrote another song, and this is again, just channeling. It's called Forgive Yourself.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  But the, the, the repeating phrase, the chorus of the song is if you can't forgive me, forgive yourself, which is something we all have to do. We have to forgive others, but we also have to figure, forgive ourselves and stop beating up on ourselves about things, choices we've made in the past that haven't worked out for ourselves or other people. Taking responsibility. Again, we come back to that concept also, or that idea of being accountable and being responsible, taking responsibility. That's a very big lesson that I learned studying Kabbalah is that I am responsible. I am responsible and every, and I believe in personal accountability, personal karma, and I believe in global karma,

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  like a lot of the things that are happening in the world is as a result of our selfishness as people, as humans, as a society, we are responsible. You can't just sit in your room and your house or the safety of your home and go, oh, these people are, you know, they deserve it, whatever. Like to be aware and conscious that you're contributing in some way, shape or form. And at the same time, if we have collectively and consciously evolved to a higher state of consciousness, we can change the world. But that also sounds like

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  a cliche, but make the world a better place, tip the balance, so to speak. But that's why I'm here. And that's why I'm talking to you. And that's why I made these, um, this is why I documented my studies with my teacher, because I really believe that this wisdom can help other people in a very practical way, not in an esoteric way. And that's why I'm here.

• 1:21:45Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. Thank you for sharing that and that journey you went on of forgiveness, because yeah, for you to be that honest and vulnerable and explain that that was someone that you felt was an enemy at that point, but the relief you felt from helping someone, it, I mean, that's like, you know, I can, I'm thinking about the people that are listening and watching right now and the experience that they're having where they're really struggling to forgive themselves or forgive someone else.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:15Jay Shetty?

  And looking at it from the point of view of.

• 1:22:20Jay Shetty?

  What would that look like if you never got that opportunity? I know so many people who regret the last thing they said to their parents, or the last thing they said to a loved one, or whoever it may be. And it seems that vengeance and spite doesn't seem to heal the soul.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Well, harsh words and harsh behavior is energy. And you can never take it back. But you can change your destiny, your karmic destiny. And one of those ways is to forgive others and forgive yourself.

• 1:22:59Jay Shetty?

  Madonna, you've been so gracious with your time, your energy and vulnerability today. I feel like I've learned so much about you. I'm very grateful to get. And you said you repeated yourself, but I'd honestly say that I enjoyed that because it shows to me the good training is good repetition. And so if you have the same, if you have a similar mindset towards something, it's not, in the material world, we look at-

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Well, you only get good at something if you do it a lot.

• 1:23:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, in the material world, we know that, but we often look at repeating as, "I have heard that before, I know that." But actually, the thing we think we know the most is the thing we need to hear more often. And when I think about the Gita or the Vedas, "You're the soul, not the body," is the most repeated lesson. It's the first lesson, but the most repeated-

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  You're the soul, your consciousness, not the body- Yes.

• 1:23:52Jay Shetty?

  -is repeated more than any other teaching, even though it's the most obvious and it's the first teaching.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Very obvious, but so look how attached we are to physicality.

• 1:24:00Jay Shetty?

  Exactly, so you need to repeat it. But I was thinking that this might be a perfect time because you've been referencing in this conversation, you've referenced your teachers so many times. And we're fortunate enough today to actually have the opportunity to invite him onto the show. And if you're open to it, I think this may be the perfect time.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  I would love to.

• 1:24:18Jay Shetty?

  Should we do it?

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:24:19Jay Shetty?

  Perfect. Hey, Tan, I'm so grateful that we actually get to speak to you. Madonna's been talking about you the whole interview. And I want our audience to know, of course, you were sitting in on our conversation as well. And so you have context of everything we talked about. And of course, you have 29 years of context of everything Madonna shared with us over the last couple of hours. But thank you so much for doing this and thank you for being here.

• 1:24:42Speaker 03

  Thank you for having the honor of being here and being part of really sharing-

• 1:24:49Speaker 03

  These teachings.

• 1:24:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, well, I was sharing with you earlier that my vision when I started my platform was to make wisdom go viral, especially ancient wisdom. And so this is, this is truly my heart's work. And so, thank you for the opportunity back. I want to dive in because we've heard about Madonna's journey and her journey to Kabbalah. But I would love to hear how you came to it, because I'm assuming everyone has their own spiritual journey of awakening or connecting. And I'm sure many of our listeners today are either on their spiritual journey, want to start one, but I'd love to hear, how did you come to this practice yourself?

• 1:25:26Speaker 03

  I started in a young age. I grew up in Israel in a non-religious family. And from a young age, I was asking question about life. I think it came from the depth of my soul. It's beyond because someone taught me or anything. And when I was seventeen, my brother introduced me to Kabbalah. I went to the Kabbalah Center and I met my teacher for many years, the Rav Berg. And after hearing one hour of a lesson of how the universe began and why are we here?

• 1:26:05Speaker 03

  It resonated in such a deep level, literally, I couldn't sleep for three nights. And I felt I'm home. I felt I'm reconnecting to really my purpose, what life is about. And it took few years, and by the age of twenty-one, I knew that's my mission in life. So basically, in the last forty years, that's what I'm doing all day long.

• 1:26:40Speaker 03

  Student and a teacher in the last forty years. Yeah.

• 1:26:44Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful. Like I was saying earlier, I felt like I came to my work when I was eighteen. And so I'm a couple of decades behind you in my journey, but that idea of discovering something early and it resonating so strongly with your heart and committing your life to it. What was it like when you first met Madonna? What was that first interaction like from your from your vantage, from your perspective? Uh, tell us about it.

• 1:27:09Speaker 03

  I don't think she knows, but when Madonna's friend, which studied with me, called me and told me, I'm bringing Madonna to a class tonight. Forty people. So I told her, you know, I never saw a picture of Madonna. I heard her name. So.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  Cute.

• 1:27:33Speaker 03

  So don't worry, she'll sit in the back with me. So that's actually the first time.

• 1:27:37Jay Shetty?

  So you had no idea what she looked like?

• 1:27:39Speaker 03

  No, I didn't have a clue. I didn't have a clue. In those days, I was pretty.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Naive.

• 1:27:47Jay Shetty?

  You were plugged in.

• 1:27:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was totally in mission and I didn't. I heard the name Madonna, but I didn't actually recognize.

• 1:27:58Jay Shetty?

  And then did you connect that evening? Was that where?

• 1:28:01Speaker 03

  That evening, actually, we sat.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  We did?

• 1:28:03Speaker 03

  That evening, yeah. We sat in the conference room because we sat in Vans at Willmeet.

• 1:28:10Speaker 03

  And Madonna was very suspicious of me.

• 1:28:14Jay Shetty?

  Oh yeah, I can relate to that, yeah.

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  What's the agenda here? What's happening? But listen, she had many students. But one of the amazing qualities of Madonna is perseverance, tenacity in the ups and downs. And trust me, I've experienced and seen a lot of ups and downs.

• 1:28:43Speaker 03

  But I always say, when you constantly nurturing your soul.

• 1:28:53Speaker 03

  Your soul will guide you. Our soul is the part within us, which knows all the answers, that connected to the higher force 24/7. It is our body, our logic, our ego, the layers in our hearts that blocking us to see and to feel the truth. When you just agree with some spiritual concept and once in a while learnings, wow, it's amazing, I love it. It's not enough. You need to nurture the soul. That light of the soul and that wisdom of the soul and that intuition that come from the soul will channel back its energy to your life.

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  Because the source of all protection and the source of all true joy come from the soul. So, so she has that amazing and amazing attribute of tenacity and perseverance. Not giving up, no matter what.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  One of the reasons I like going there is because it's like it was the only place where people didn't bother me about who I was. I literally sat in the back of a room with folding chairs. As I said, there was mostly wet men and no one said a word to me, no one bothered me, no one said, oh my God, aren't you Madonna, can I have your autograph? Or like whatever, like I just felt like I could be anonymous there.

• 1:30:22Speaker 03

  Was that the first time you'd experienced that in your career at that time?

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  Well, for a long time, yeah. So with a large group of people and strangers. So I liked the anonymity of just being a student and going there and learning. And it had nothing to do with my career or work or, yeah. So that was inviting. So I wanted to go back and then I would always bring my notebook and take notes. And I have a zillion journals from all of my classes and studies. And I love to be a student and learn. And I was learning so much. And I also was so, what I loved so much about Kabbalah and studying Kabbalah was how in tune it was with science and quantum physics. And you know, it wasn't just...

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Just because, you know what I mean? Like, everything made sense to me. And I could see how, you know, even the idea of,

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  you know, how the world was created or beginning of life, the idea of, you know, Genesis, for instance, or the idea of Adam and Eve. I learned that nothing in life can be taken literally. You have to study the deeper meanings of everything. And that is true for a spiritual practice as well as science, as well as everything we do in life. You can't judge a book by its cover. You can't take things literally. And I was like, oh, like, when I was growing up as a Catholic, I would always say to my father, well, why, why do we have to, you know, why do we have to wear dresses to church? Why does, why does, you know, like, you know, wear a hat, cover your hat? What, like, there was no explanation for anything.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  And that really bugged me. So if you can't find a reason, if you can't explain something to me, I'm not interested. So he did explain things to me and they all, everything made sense. Nothing was silly. What we do study when we study Kabbalah is the, we study the Zohar. And in, within the Zohar is everything about life, about medicine, about science, about nature, about relationships.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  And that was really comforting to me to see, that's what helped me see life is not a series of random events.

• 1:32:46Jay Shetty?

  Eitan, you mentioned, I mean, as I'm listening to him, that you're trying to speak about this as well. You mentioned, obviously, you know, this tradition is 4,000 years old. How?

• 1:32:58Speaker 03

  First book that was written, but it was before, it was before.

• 1:33:01Jay Shetty?

  Right, right, right. So it's put into writing.

• 1:33:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Jay Shetty?

  It was put into the technology of books, 4,000 years ago. How, how did it come to be? Like, tell us a bit about the history of it so that we get some context of the tradition.

• 1:33:13Speaker 03

  Actually, the, the first book that was ever written in Kabbalah was three pages long. It's called The Book of Formation, that was written by Abram the Patriarch. And it's written in such a coded way and will not get any, understand the secret of life and the whys of life.

• 1:33:31Jay Shetty?

  Three pages?

• 1:33:32Speaker 03

  Three pages.

• 1:33:33Jay Shetty?

  That's cool.

• 1:33:33Speaker 03

  Yes. It's a lot of commentary, but yes, three pages. And then the main book of Kabbalah, after many Kabbalist teaching from one to another, was the book of the Zohar, or the Book of Splendor, that was revealed 2,000 years ago. And the Zohar is actually decodified the Torah, decodified the Bible. And helping us to understand, the Bible is not a book of stories, or laws, or religiosity, or dogma. It's the secrets of life are hidden there.

• 1:34:17Speaker 03

  And the Zohar, the main book of which we have it today, translated to English and to other languages, it's actually helping us to understand that everything in this world has a purpose and a reason. And if you're asking what really Kabbalah is about, Kabbalah is about understanding the whys of life, of the universe, and why I'm here, and what is my purpose? And why are we struggling? And what is the journey of our soul? And where we came from? And if the Creator is such an infinite force of good and love,

• 1:35:01Speaker 03

  how come we're all struggling? Either with pain, with doubts, with negativity, with selfishness? So, that is the main book of Kabbalah. And of course, was many Kabbalist throughout history since then that were able to bring Kabbalah down to us. And in 1970, that's when the Kabbalah Center started, which is opening the gates and the doors of Kabbalah to all mankind.

• 1:35:34Jay Shetty?

  Do you remember, you're talking about the whys of life and the questions and the seeking? Do you remember one of the first questions that Madonna inquired about, or one of the first things that she was grappling with? Or do you remember, Madonna?

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  I don't even remember.

• 1:35:49Speaker 03

  So, I just... I I don't remember in what specific context.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  Well, we didn't.

• 1:35:56Speaker 03

  It was twenty nine years.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Also, I didn't study with him like this, like I was just a student in the back of a class. It took a while.

• 1:36:03Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  For us to like have one on one conversations.

• 1:36:08Speaker 03

  It took a year or two until we.

• 1:36:11Jay Shetty?

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• 1:36:53Jay Shetty?

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• 1:37:38Jay Shetty?

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• 1:37:48Speaker 03

  Started. Right. To meet regularly once a week. Right. As well, yeah. Wow. So, but but I think one of the, one of the things that I remember speaking to Madonna, and this is a struggles that everybody have. So we get there's a higher power. Call it God, call it the light, call it insuff, endless energy of love, of giving, that is beyond time and space and it's within us, okay?

• 1:38:23Speaker 03

  So why there's evil? Forget about outside, even inside. Why do we have constantly destructive forces within each one of us? There's a constant chatter. You wake up and gravity pulls you down. Why?

• 1:38:45Speaker 03

  A lot of people study today how to overcome that negative force, but why there is a negative force within us? So one of the, one of the basic understanding, we're talking about it's, it's understanding that the greatest gift, the greatest gift the Creator gave us

• 1:39:07Speaker 03

  is the opportunity to overcome the opponent within. Because when you overcome, you become co-Creator.

• 1:39:20Speaker 03

  The reason why we don't experience enough peace, enough light, enough fulfillment is very simple. Like attracts like. You want to experience the light? Be like the light, be a being of sharing. But part of what the light is about is a Creator. So the gift to overcome negativity within is the gift of being the Creator. Imagine you were given everything. You're born with talents, you're born with love, you're born with just helping people all day long. That's your natural tendency. No negative force tried to pull you down, no selfishness. Do you think you really will be able to actually experience

• 1:40:05Speaker 03

  and appreciate the force of the Creator, the force of love, the force of light, the force of true fulfillment? The answer is no. So while sometime we're upset, why I have this particular negative voice in my mind? And why do I have to struggle with abandonment issue? And why do I have to struggle with moments of sadness? At the moment you realize, one second, this is the greatest gift the Creator gave you. Doesn't mean you ride away, know how to overcome it. Maybe we'll share some tools, how to do it. But the fact that you accept the greatest gift in this world is the gift of overcoming.

• 1:40:51Speaker 03

  And it doesn't mean it has to be with suffering. Actually, it doesn't mean. But the fact that you accept that opponent within you, it's actually was created by the light, by the universe, by the force of good to help us to grow.

• 1:41:11Speaker 03

  Imagine you bring, we spoke about soccer a little bit before. Imagine, imagine you bring your kids to play soccer and you bring them in front of a goal and with a ball and say, "Now score." Will it be fun? No, it needs an opponent. It needs a goalie. It needs to overcome something. Without overcoming anything, we'll never have a sense of true fulfillment.

• 1:41:39Speaker 03

  And we're not talking about overcoming the external challenges, which is part of life. But recognizing the unique challenges each one of us needs to overcome. We call it karma. We call it kabbalistically, tikkun. Each one of us have own unique areas of transformation. And everything that life presenting to us is to present these opportunities of overcoming. And as a result, allow my soul to shine, my gifts to shine, my true purpose to shine.

• 1:42:15Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful. I love hearing that. It's, uh,

• 1:42:20Jay Shetty?

  it's so interesting to hear how that which we believe to be the obstacle is actually the path. And it reminds me of, and I know, Madonna, you studied the Gita as well. Arjun's dilemma in the first chapter, so Arjun's a warrior, he's an archer, to be specific. And he's in the middle of a battlefield. And on one side is his brothers and on the other side is his cousins. So it's all family, the opposing side and his side. And he's on his chariot in the middle of the battlefield and he's talking to God. And God is serving him as his charioteer.

• 1:43:05Jay Shetty?

  And what he's expressing to God is his doubt, his anxiety and his insecurity. And that's how it begins. It begins from a place of doubt, stress, fear, pressure, which is what engages him to ask the question. And it's so interesting that we often think that doubt and anxiety are the problem. But often they are the seed of where the question comes from and why we even look up or look around and question what's happening in our lives. And it's almost like doubt is the direction and anxiety is...

• 1:43:40Speaker 03

  Beautiful.

• 1:43:41Jay Shetty?

  Right? Like there's, it's similar.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Well, something has to wake you up, whether you need some kind of pressure. Whether you're standing in front of a goal or you're, you know, trying to win a war.

• 1:43:53Jay Shetty?

  Well, your pressure was becoming a mom.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, it was, you know, and coming to terms with, you know, is also, you know, is my life, is my life as a, is in my career, is, you know, as an entertainer, is it going to change? Is it going to, is it going to be over? Like I said, I associate motherhood with death. So it's like, what's going to happen to me? Like I needed to be rooted somewhere and I needed to have certainty. But you can't have certainty unless you start with doubt.

• 1:44:29Speaker 03

  Exactly. Like she mentioned before.

• 1:44:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:32Speaker 03

  Madonna mentioned before that the greatest light hiding beyond the greatest perception of darkness. So if darkness manifests itself as fear or the unknown.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  Doubt.

• 1:44:46Speaker 03

  Or the uncertainty, or the doubt, or the weakness. So one of the practices is actually ability to pause and allow yourself to feel it for a second because there's a great light hidden there.

• 1:44:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, what did you help? What do you remember helping or what advice would you have given to Madonna at that time to help her connect the dots? I think the phrase that she's repeated a few times in this conversation of seeing motherhood is death. It's such a strong statement, but it makes so much sense from your experience when you connect the dots. How would you encourage, how did you encourage her to reflect on that association?

• 1:45:26Speaker 03

  We didn't necessarily speak about that concept, but about other challenges and fears and perceived pain.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Abandonment, we talked about that a lot.

• 1:45:39Speaker 03

  Abandonment, absolutely, I think.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  Also, you don't want to love or be in love or be attached, feel attachment. Because then you could get hurt. So that was a big issue for me, like I'm good on my own, like as a warrior surviving. Like, don't with me.

• 1:46:00Jay Shetty?

  I don't need help.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  I don't need any help, like I'm good. But then you need help and then it's hard to like say it and say I, I

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  I'm doubting myself, I'm, I'm, I don't feel like a warrior.

• 1:46:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's, yeah, it's, it's, it's Arjun's dilemma, he's, he's the greatest archer of his time. Yet his bow is slipping from his hands. Because he's like, I can't shoot an arrow and he's the best. And that, that feeling of, I think we all have that, like you, you so beautifully talked about it, Aita, on this idea that we've been given so many gifts. We have so many talents and I think a lot of our audience today in the world. People have forgotten the gifts that they have and then we all often get into this feeling of low self-esteem. You know, we don't feel worthy, we don't feel we have a purpose. And I feel like that's where the world is today, a lot of people who are listening and watching today

• 1:46:59Jay Shetty?

  probably feel like they don't have something to offer. Or maybe they know kind of what they have to offer, but they don't feel confident enough. What would your teachings and some of your guidance say to those kind of people who are sitting there thinking, I kind of, you know, I don't have that confidence in myself. I don't, I don't really know what I'm gonna do, and they're feeling stuck.

• 1:47:21Speaker 03

  Think like Madonna mentioned, she felt weak. She didn't felt her personality of being a warrior.

• 1:47:32Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:34Speaker 03

  So, there's a big difference between personality and soul strength.

• 1:47:39Jay Shetty?

  Talk to us about the difference.

• 1:47:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, what's the difference between personality and soul strength?

• 1:47:44Speaker 03

  So Madonna always been a warrior.

• 1:47:46Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:47Speaker 03

  That's her personality. That she grew, she did, that's part of her gifts, but it's not necessarily mean that she'll channel a warrior's attributes in a soulful way.

• 1:48:01Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:48:02Speaker 03

  But we identify with that. I'm a warrior. When I'm a warrior, I'm strong. When I'm strong, I'm happy. When I'm strong, I'm meaningful. When I'm strong, I matter. And when suddenly you go through a situation that threaten that ability to be a warrior, to be strong, to be independent, suddenly you feel fear and emptiness. And what I would recommend, what I would share with Madonna, I would recommend anybody.

• 1:48:32Speaker 03

  In order to find your strength, start with the challenges of today.

• 1:48:41Speaker 03

  It's not about finding my purpose in the future.

• 1:48:47Speaker 03

  And let's break it down to simple.

• 1:48:49Jay Shetty?

  Such a great point, it's such a great point.

• 1:48:51Speaker 03

  Simple four steps. How do I handle a challenge today?

• 1:49:00Speaker 03

  So step number one.

• 1:49:01Jay Shetty?

  I just wanted, before you dive into the steps, that is beautiful. I absolutely love that mindset. I think it's such a great. I hope everyone who's listening and watching right now, it's such great advice because we're so fixated on finding, discovering, looking for the answer in some point in the future, and it just keeps feeling postponed and further away. And I love what you're saying is that the challenge in front of you right now is the purpose.

• 1:49:25Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:49:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 1:49:26Speaker 03

  How do you connect the delight with the energy, with your soul, with the blessing that's available in this very moment?

• 1:49:33Jay Shetty?

  Oh, good. Sorry, yeah.

• 1:49:35Speaker 03

  And that will lead to other blessings.

• 1:49:37Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:38Speaker 03

  That will open doors.

• 1:49:39Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:40Speaker 03

  That will attract clarity.

• 1:49:42Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:44Speaker 03

  We face a challenge. All of us, it can be challenge at work, it can be challenge at home, it can be just, I start to compare myself to someone else, and it triggers lack. All of us, doesn't matter how spiritual we are, and doesn't matter how successful we are.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Guilty.

• 1:50:04Speaker 03

  We'll have at least hundred times a day, lack will be trigger, fear today.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Hmm?

• 1:50:11Speaker 03

  Even today.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Every day. It's like the comparison game.

• 1:50:19Speaker 03

  At least hundred times a day.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  I mean, that's what social media is for, really, to make you feel bad about yourself. Unless you recognize that that is an illusion, that's not reality.

• 1:50:30Speaker 03

  Oh, this is an opportunity.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Right. An opportunity for me to not engage.

• 1:50:36Speaker 03

  Exactly, and to actually find light in the moment.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  Well, just actually to conquer your fear in that moment, or to conquer your repetitive behavior of, oh my God, I wish I had that. Oh my God, I wish I was that person. Oh my God, I wish that my life was like that person's life, like, if only I had... dot, dot, dot, you know, it's like, to stop yourself in that moment and conquer that moment, which is, I'm good enough. I am everything that I need. I, I, I am. I, I, I embody it. I just have to reveal it. But that's a, that's a really hard one. I think especially for women, you know, because we are conditioned to like want to aspire to be this beautiful, or this great of a mother, or you know, this great of a homemaker,

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  or this great of a, you know, it's a test every day to not judge yourself and to not like feel like you're lacking in some way, like you say. And when I say my prayers, part of my prayer is that I rise above my limitations and that I rise above my nature and that I don't get sucked into the vortex of lack, which can come in so many different forms. And tune into, you just, you, you really have to be consciously like going, like your head is a radio dial, like going, like, like, like, no, I'm not, that's not me. You know what I mean? It's constant, it's a constant conversation you're having with yourself.

• 1:52:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, so true. So that's a really reliable problem.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  And that's, and that's, it requires work and it requires paying attention and being aware. And we also get caught up in, we know, we live in a world, it's just distraction, right? So easy to get distracted. It doesn't mean you're not supposed to have fun. Like right now, I really want to have fun, but not that you're not fun, I'm not.

• 1:52:32Jay Shetty?

  Oh, we're not having a fun. I think we're having fun.

• 1:52:35Speaker 01

  But um, yeah, it's just, we live in a world of distraction. So it's so easy to get caught, pulled off the track of, you know, what am I doing? What am I doing right now? What am I doing to myself? Like I'm, I'm, I'm already there. I got caught, you know what I mean? By the seed of doubt and self judgment and comparing, and I'm not good enough, therefore I'm going to be in a bad mood, or I'm gonna shout at my child, or you know what I mean? It's like, takes so many different forms. And like, the greatest thing in the world is to be able to stop yourself before that happens. Um, but it does require constant vigilance.

• 1:53:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing to hear you say that you still feel that way.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:24Jay Shetty?

  That's helpful and validating for, for all of us.

• 1:53:27Speaker 03

  That's part of the path of transformation.

• 1:53:29Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. Sorry, back to the tool, yes.

• 1:53:31Speaker 03

  So, so really, because

• 1:53:35Speaker 03

  without what is lack

• 1:53:39Speaker 03

  is the illusion that there's no force of good. You're not protected. You're not loved. You're alone.

• 1:53:50Speaker 03

  You're sad. You're disconnected.

• 1:53:55Speaker 03

  And the practice to overcome that, not just in meditation, throughout the day, which is very powerful, is step number one. As you face the challenge, before you get, as the reactive process of lack and negative thoughts, tell yourself, say these words. Pause. What an opportunity. I don't know why it's an opportunity.

• 1:54:27Speaker 03

  But I know every moment of lack is a gift from the universe to help me to reveal greater light and a blessing in my life. Step number two. Don't fix it yet.

• 1:54:42Speaker 03

  Embrace what is. Embrace the difficult feelings. Because in order to find light in darkness, you need to be there with courage a little bit in darkness. We want to fix right away. We want to get rid of what bothers us. We want to get rid of the fear. We want to get rid of the insecurities. We can't stand it. We don't like the discomfort. And how do we want to get rid of it? By being reactive. By blaming. By judging ourselves. By jumping after opportunity for insignifications. By being self-destructive.

• 1:55:25Speaker 03

  Pause. Embrace, it's okay. And part of the reason of studies, developing trust, it's okay. Embrace first what is. And then go to the next level.

• 1:55:38Jay Shetty?

  And when you say embrace, do you mean to meet it positively? In that, to me, as it is.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  But to allow it.

• 1:55:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, to allow.

• 1:55:47Speaker 03

  Allow it.

• 1:55:48Jay Shetty?

  Because.

• 1:55:48Speaker 03

  Sit in it.

• 1:55:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:50Speaker 03

  Allow it. Not because I want to stay there, because that's part of the process.

• 1:55:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:55Speaker 03

  Of revealing the great light of my soul.

• 1:55:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it almost feels that often what happens is because we've tried to go to the light so much, sorry. It often feels that because we've tried to go to the light so much, we don't know how to sit in the darkness.

• 1:56:11Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:56:11Jay Shetty?

  We want to go to the good so quickly, we don't know how to sit in the bad.

• 1:56:14Speaker 03

  And that's when you develop strength.

• 1:56:16Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:56:17Speaker 03

  And there's a concept.

• 1:56:19Jay Shetty?

  The discomfort.

• 1:56:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's a concept kabbalistically called certainty beyond logic.

• 1:56:25Jay Shetty?

  Explain that.

• 1:56:27Speaker 03

  I'm trusting even though I don't feel it. And it doesn't make sense that actually I'm led towards anything positive. But I'm trusting beyond logic that this experience is for my best.

• 1:56:46Speaker 03

  Even if I'm guilty and feeling horrible about mistakes that I I've done. It's okay.

• 1:56:52Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:56:53Speaker 03

  You're gonna get to the part of learning the lesson, don't fix it, don't erase it. Certainty beyond logic, so, so, so, so the part of embrace, sit, allow.

• 1:57:07Speaker 03

  And then you're ready to the next step, which is telling yourself. Because our belief system tells us. It's moment of darkness. There's no light here, there's no good here. Yeah, there's no light here. There's no love here, there's no light here. So you need to tell yourself, "All the light that I need is within me now." Just tell yourself. It doesn't make sense. Logic doesn't agree. The heart doesn't agree. But that's the job of this world, to allow the thoughts, the stream of energy that come from the soul, to influence gradually the mind and the heart and the body. And again and again and again, tell yourself, "All the light that I need is within me now.

• 1:57:52Speaker 03

  I'm certain beyond logic, it's for my best." And then, "Show me the way, the light, the universe, what's there?" When you feel less reactive. Because usually, when we experience lack, we're reactive. We want to get rid of the lack, we want to get rid of the... And that's what's caused... Think, what's caused evil behavior between people? Not knowing how to handle moments of lack. That's where it starts. So forget about others. Let's start with ourself. And sometimes we'll fix the lack, because someone will tell us, "Wow, you're an amazing person. I love you so much." And now we feel good.

• 1:58:37Speaker 03

  And I fixed it. I forgot about my lack, I forgot about my insecurity. Actually, I am amazing. Are you? Are you developing true muscles and skills to find the light within? Or you want to be attached to the external energy that will fix you? It will never work. And of course, when you're in that place, actions of giving, even if it doesn't make sense, calling someone, adding value to someone, being kind to someone, also help you to shift your energy towards the vibration of the soul, towards the vibration of the light. But we all need to go through this test. Yeah.

• 1:59:24Speaker 03

  You know, some people would call it mental illness. But we all have that mental struggle. We all have that mental struggle.

• 1:59:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:37Speaker 03

  In feelings and in our mind. So it's a, it's actually, it's a daily practice.

• 1:59:44Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely.

• 1:59:44Speaker 03

  To transform, it's a daily practice. And when you have the courage and you study enough depth that support the understanding that the light is never gone.

• 1:59:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:57Speaker 03

  It's my perception, I see the light, I don't see the light. That is causing me to feel the light is disappear. And I'm small and I'm not enough and I'm not capable. And I'm not confident.

• 2:00:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that, that really resonates very strongly because I feel like

• 2:00:18Jay Shetty?

  when you're first reading this new script, you don't believe it. And that's why, as you're saying, the regular study is almost like reading a script, consistently, a new script. Because we're already reading the old script of I'm not good enough, I'm not capable enough. I don't belong, whatever it may be. But the one line that I really loved that resonated with me, which I want to ask you about, Madonna, is the trust beyond logic. Because I think that's the phase that most of us give up. Because we're living in a logical, functional, material world. Where if a train is not coming, you would leave the station. But here, the trust beyond logic is no, I'm still gonna wait here, or I'm gonna act in a certain way, or I'm gonna change these behaviors.

• 2:01:03Jay Shetty?

  Madonna, when did you have to practice trust beyond logic in your life? The most, where, where have you?

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  I mean, every challenge I've ever had. Once I became aware that I had the power to do that and.

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  Like making art, creation is, is, has nothing to do with being logical.

• 2:01:24Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  Doesn't have anything to do with the logical part of your brain. You can't measure it, you can't predict it, you can't control it. You have to allow it. Um. So I would say that challenger is like happening on a daily basis. Like even now, like I told you my, you know, there's a pipe that burst in the middle of my house. And it's like creating havoc and all I was so excited to come to London to be in my house in London. And everything's gone wrong. And I'm like, okay, so there has to be a reason for it. I can't just sit here and like be angry or upset.

• 2:02:10Speaker 01

  Like there's a illogical wisdom to everything that's happening. If that's not being attached to material things, then that could be an option. If that's because all these things are broken, I need to spend more time doing something else. It's more important than that's, you know what I mean? There's always a reason for something. Um, so, and you can't logically figure it out. Like, I wish that I could have seen 10 years ahead that my son was going to be my best friend. I was trying to make logical sense of everything. You know what I mean?

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  So I wish that I could knew then what I know now. So there's always, and there's big struggles and little struggles. Like you can't logically explain things like especially like I always use art as a, as a, an example. Because I can tell you that 99% of the time when I'm writing lyrics or singing a melody, I'm not thinking about it. That's logic. If I think it's gone or it doesn't come to me.

• 2:03:27Jay Shetty?

  I want to ask you, Etan, based on that, as Madonna said, she waited 10 years to see that experience of, you know, her son becoming her best friend. I think a lot of people wonder, how is the?

• 2:03:45Jay Shetty?

  Reason revealed or received. How do we know? Because like you said, it's trust beyond logic. And logic is like, if I do this, then this will happen. And this like, my pipes will burst. If I call the guy, he'll come and fix it. Right? Like, that's the kind of way our brain works. When we're trusting beyond logic, it could take 10 years to receive a reason. It could take 20 years. It could take 50 years to really have a revelation on something. How is it often revealed or received when it's not based on logic?

• 2:04:15Speaker 03

  So.

• 2:04:15Jay Shetty?

  Does that make sense?

• 2:04:16Speaker 03

  Yes, it makes sense. What you're asking, number one, is when things.

• 2:04:19Speaker 04

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• 2:04:51Speaker 05

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• 2:05:19Speaker 03

  Things don't go your way.

• 2:05:24Speaker 03

  And of course, sometimes we need to do practical action to make things better and to fix things. But sometimes it's out of our control. Things don't go our way. Like the situation with the experience that Madonna shared. So certainty beyond logic is that the struggle that I'm going through is for my best.

• 2:05:52Speaker 03

  But doesn't allow me to be self-destructive, because if I want to speed up the process that I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I need to strengthen. And we need friends, you need teachings, you need the right support, to actually trust the universe loves you and it's for the good, as difficult it is. But then you need to ask a second question. When you're ready, when you're not as reactive, what's my lesson? Why is it in my movie? And sometime, the answer is simple.

• 2:06:33Speaker 03

  Every time we experience rejection. What is rejection? Things don't go our way. It purifies us. Because our mind and our heart is so attached to happiness is when this will happen. Which is not necessarily the big picture happiness, what's really good for me. Yeah. So when you actually realize that actually that's a purification process and you open and you allow it to happen. Because all of us are not aligned with the true desire of the universe.

• 2:07:16Speaker 03

  If it would be aligned, we would be joyful every second and we will be giving unconditionally every second and we'll think all day long, how can I add value to others? And because we are not there and that's part of the gift of life, gradual transformation, we need moments of rejection. But when you question yourself, hmm, where am I too attached? What's my lesson? What do I need to let go? That will support to speed up the process of seeing the light. Because every fruit, in order to become sweet...

• 2:07:56Speaker 03

  And ripe is first sour, there's a process.

• 2:08:00Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:00Speaker 03

  Actually, the botanist would say that more sour the fruit in the process, sweeter at the end.

• 2:08:10Speaker 03

  It's so easy to throw the sour fruit and to say it's a bad fruit.

• 2:08:15Speaker 03

  But if you are able to allow this process, and you need a lot of spiritual strength. Because culture, society, our body, our mind is prone to react. And to decide it's bad, that constant conversation in our mind. It's good, it's bad, I'm good, I'm bad.

• 2:08:42Speaker 03

  It's that reactive conversation we have within us that actually prolonging the process.

• 2:08:48Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:48Speaker 03

  So, so actually faster we embracing certainty be a logic, faster we asking question. Because at the beginning you cannot ask because you're in pain.

• 2:08:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:57Speaker 03

  So you just try to at least trust and embrace and embrace and beg something and asking. But when you're ready to ask question, what's my lessons? Because very often, we are so touched, we spoke about forgiveness, to what's wrong with them?

• 2:09:19Speaker 03

  And we forget that the true purpose of life is my own transformation and elevation.

• 2:09:24Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 2:09:25Speaker 03

  While I'm interacting with other people.

• 2:09:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:28Speaker 03

  So when the conversation is no longer about they are good, they are bad, how did they do it? And you bring it back to you, how can I elevate? How can I become better? How can I transform between me and my soul, between me and my perfected self? When you, that's when you inject the energy, then things, the light will be shown faster.

• 2:09:55Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. Yeah, that's the question that's the accelerator.

• 2:10:01Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 2:10:01Jay Shetty?

  That we want, we want the pain to go away quicker.

• 2:10:05Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:10:05Jay Shetty?

  But that question is, and sitting with that question.

• 2:10:08Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:10:09Jay Shetty?

  Is, is the thing that actually speeds it up. What are you trying to work on right now, Madonna, that you're working on in your studies? I know you get together regularly. People are going to be able to watch your studies as well that you do together. What's something that you're trying to work on right now? That seems very fresh as a challenge, something to overcome, as you said.

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  The lessons that I learn and study are more applicable to things that are challenging me on a regular basis.

• 2:10:39Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:10:40Speaker 01

  Which would be, you know, my children. They're always challenging me in one way or another. And that's a, like, it's such a big lesson for me to, like, let go of expectations and stop trying to control the outcome and over worrying and, you know. I'm just like, some days I wake up and I'm just relieved that they're all okay. You know what I mean? It's like, and I always say to people, when you're, when you have that many kids, you're, you're, um, you're not really a parent, you're a manager. You know what I mean?

• 2:11:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. By the way, she has amazing kids and spiritual kids. And because of her tremendous effort to infuse, not just with the teachings, with their behavior, consciousness, sometimes you don't see it right away, but we see kid after kid that actually they're coming around in their own unique way. So.

• 2:11:39Speaker 01

  And also infuriating me.

• 2:11:40Speaker 03

  What, what kind of things?

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I have to stop thinking that, you know, my way of doing things or my way of approaching life or my way of being an artist is going to be somebody else's or my kid's way of doing it. Everybody has their own journey and, um, it's taken me a long time to accept that.

• 2:12:03Speaker 03

  And to let go of control.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:12:05Jay Shetty?

  Why is that so hard as a parent? Because I feel like so many parents would be able to relate to that right now, where we subconsciously or consciously are projecting, living through our children, wanting them to, you know.

• 2:12:16Speaker 01

  Wanting them to be successful or in, not like, not even in a. Not like I want them to be rich and famous. I just want them to be happy. I want them to be authentic. I want them to not compare themselves to other people, not worry about what people think of them. Cause they're my children, like we're, you know, fearing judgment, um, letting that go. Helping them to see their own unique gifts. It's a constant battle because also you don't want to come off as somebody who's like trying to control the situation all the time either.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  My weekly studies with Aetan or my daily prayers or whatever are often about, you know,

• 2:13:04Speaker 01

  I don't want my children to do specific things. I want them to realize what they were put on this earth to do. I want them to elevate to their highest level of consciousness. And how can I help that? That's it. But it's still hard not to be bothered by things, things.

• 2:13:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think that's a very relatable challenge for parents.

• 2:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:33Jay Shetty?

  It's, it's a real one. It's and, and, and I guess when you ask that question then of what is the lesson in this? Applying Aetan's process, what, what do you often come up with?

• 2:13:47Speaker 01

  Trying to control all the outcomes in life is, and not getting the outcome you wanted is what makes you suffer. So if that lesson keeps coming back to me, then I guess I haven't learned it yet. And children are a perfect teacher for that because they're never going to do what you want them to do, the way that you want them to do it.

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  And I was just get them from here to there without hurting themselves or anybody else. You know what I mean?

• 2:14:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, because they too have to overcome.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. You know, I didn't, I grew up with very little and that, so I have a huge desire. And then of course you give your children all the things you wanted to have. And then you realize that's killing their desire. And so, you know, it's like, it's just, you're just constantly going, oh shit, oh shit. Okay, I'm not, okay, not just be counterintuitive. Just say nothing. That's, that's a big one for me. Say nothing. But I'm getting good at it. I'm just really getting good at it.

• 2:14:48Jay Shetty?

  No, I appreciate you walking us through that thought process because I think. You've summed it up. That's exactly what we want to do. We want to take away someone's pain, or the pain we thought they're gonna have because of the pain we had.

• 2:14:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:15:00Jay Shetty?

  And then you provide something only to create a new pain and for them to never have the pain that you had, but have a completely different version of it.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:15:07Jay Shetty?

  We do it for everyone we love. And I was gonna ask you a time, like, what do you do when you don't like the answer? That question is so important, like, what is the lesson I need to learn? But a lot of us, subconsciously, may not like the answer we get. And that's where we have to keep learning again. What happens when you don't like the truth that you're experiencing?

• 2:15:29Speaker 03

  So, I think part of true spiritual transformation is craving truth. It's, I want to know really, what's my lesson? Because what's the other option? More pain until I'm gonna learn the lesson? So the reason why we're not listening to the voice that tell me, let go of control. Well, for kids, one of the biggest mistakes parents do is over giving to kids, which in Kabbalist, Kabbalistic terminology, we call it bread of shame. When you give to someone something without working for it, without earning, you're actually

• 2:16:14Speaker 03

  hurting them. And the parent might know, I'm over giving and it's not healthy for them, but I feel guilty to say no.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  And I'll be popular if I say yes.

• 2:16:27Speaker 03

  Exactly. So here is the test. Guilty of saying no versus long-term pain for the kid and for yourself. So actually pause and ask that question. That will help you to get closer to the truth and be less in denial. And a fork, short term, long term. Saying yes just to fix the pain, to give them what they want? To let them play with the phone or say no. And it's difficult and they feel bad. And they blaming you, but you're doing it from place of love.

• 2:17:08Speaker 03

  Because, yes, because what's driving us? True desire to share in a long term.

• 2:17:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:19Speaker 03

  If that's my true, and that's the truth. Am I really coming from true desire to share for a long term sharing? Not just temporary fix.

• 2:17:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:30Speaker 03

  And when I'm coming from that place? Only blessings. You're planting a seed of light, a seed of blessing, a seed of miracles. When you're coming from another place pretending to be good or nice or kind, only because you cannot handle the temporary pain?

• 2:17:50Speaker 03

  You're planting a seed of chaos, which chaos also has intelligence to teach you lessons, but in a longer path.

• 2:17:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I mean, I can relate to that as a kid. Because I'm not a parent, but it was almost like during your teens, you just think everything your parents say is wrong. And then in my twenties, I was like so grateful for the discipline and the rules and the, you know, I was only allowed to play video games for like X amount of time or whatever it was. And all of a sudden, everything my parents did, I was like, oh, wow, there was actually a lot of good in it. But during my teenage years, I, you know, I obviously didn't agree with anything they said. And there's such a reality to that feeling of the long term point that you're making. The long term, you realize, oh yeah, I'm glad you actually didn't just let me eat rubbish. Or I'm really glad you didn't just let me waste hours playing video games.

• 2:18:41Jay Shetty?

  I'm really glad that you didn't do X, Y, Z, or whatever it may be. And so. It's hard, though, because the parent or the person, this could be romance, it could be in any relationship, you've got to be unpopular in the moment.

• 2:18:53Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 2:18:54Jay Shetty?

  You have to put aside your ego.

• 2:18:56Speaker 03

  You have to go through that discomfort.

• 2:18:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. Which applies at work, it applies everywhere.

• 2:19:01Speaker 03

  In anything.

• 2:19:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:02Speaker 03

  Especially in the culture today, when everything can be so instant.

• 2:19:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:10Speaker 03

  App and ordering food and getting what you want and watching any program and in your phone. So that instant culture, preventing a child or an individual to go through a real process of going through discomfort or earning the light, as we're going saying capitalistically. And people don't understand, they can be bright.

• 2:19:36Speaker 03

  How come I'm depressed? Depression, very often, it's a consequence of instant gratification, not willing to go through a difficult process.

• 2:19:50Jay Shetty?

  So hard, so hard. We, we don't want to go through the difficult process and we don't want anyone we love to go through a difficult process, although that is, that is the only process that's going to benefit us all.

• 2:20:01Speaker 01

  Or we're going to anyway, so.

• 2:20:04Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. I have one, one last question to ask both of you.

• 2:20:09Jay Shetty?

  What is your soul's purpose? Why do you think you're here? And what personally was the becoming or the overcoming that you went through to really receive that soul's purpose that you're living by? What was it that birthed that idea within you?

• 2:20:27Speaker 01

  My soul's purpose is to reveal light in the world.

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  To whatever I do, whatever that's being a parent or being an artist.

• 2:20:39Speaker 01

  Being a friend, being a leader. Yeah. We are here to receive for the sake of sharing. So I have a huge desire. I have many desires. This is not a belief system or philosophy that's about, no offense, being a monk and going up in like the mountains and meditating for hours and hours. I want it all, but I want it for the sake of sharing, not to keep it for myself.

• 2:21:12Speaker 03

  Etta?

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  He wants more followers on Instagram.

• 2:21:18Speaker 03

  The personal relationship between me and the light, between me and the Creator. I know that I don't want anything less than connecting while I'm in this physical world to the soul that was given to me. And it means total transformation, total desire to receive for the sake of sharing, certainty beyond logic until it becomes second nature. That's at a personal level. But one of the ways to achieve it is to connect with our purpose of sharing. So I know in my gut, in my soul, and it was beyond, knowing it was beyond logic,

• 2:22:01Speaker 03

  that that's what I came to do in this world, which is to spread, to be a teacher for the teachings of Kabbalah while I'm studying. One of them is about being too perfectionist spiritually. You know, taking spiritual lesson to an imbalance place. Something is wrong with me. So, and I know as long as we're in this world and if we're truly not settling for less, and that's a message for everybody, I want to say, never settle for less. Wherever you are, this is just the beginning comparing to your next level potential.

• 2:22:43Speaker 03

  So those challenges were necessary to help me to evolve to where I'm at today. And of course, this is just the beginning.

• 2:22:55Jay Shetty?

  What's that? Adonai Tan, thank you so much for your time and energy. Again, learned so much from both of you today. I really can't wait for people to watch the studies. I hope that it gives spiritual seekers an opportunity to ask better questions, deeper questions, and begins their quest for overcoming and becoming whatever their soul's purpose truly is. And I'm so grateful that you're both living yours, truly. And I'm really, again, thankful for the opportunity to have learned so much from both of you today. Thank you so much. Our honor. Thank you. Thank you.

• 2:23:32Speaker 06

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• 2:23:40Jay Shetty?

  If y'all heap the blame on me.

• 2:23:42Speaker 06

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• 2:23:49Speaker 07

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• 2:23:53Speaker 06

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• 2:23:56Speaker 07

  I'm not the first then.

• 2:23:58Speaker 06

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