Lori Gottlieb: Stop Mistaking Calm for Boring! (Follow THIS Simple Rule to Build REAL Love)

When was the last time you felt truly at ease with someone? Do you feel that kind of ease often, or was it rare? In this special live episode recorded at the DAR Constitution Hall in Washington, D. C., Jay sits down with bestselling author and therapist Lori Gottlieb to explore the hidden dynamics that shape our relationships. Together, they unpack why so many of us feel the need to “perform” for love and how fear of rejection, perfectionism, and old emotional patterns can quietly erode connection. Lori shares how true intimacy begins with acceptance, not just of our partners, but of ourselves, and why showing up authentically is the only way to feel genuinely seen. Through humor, warmth, and real audience interactions, Jay and Lori dive into topics like vulnerability, emotional safety, and the balance between “me time” and “we time.” They share how to stop trying to fix or control your partner, how to communicate without defensiveness, and how to build relationships rooted in curiosity and compassion instead of criticism. This conversation is a reminder that love isn’t about finding someone who reads your mind, it’s about learning each other’s language, embracing imperfections, and creating a safe space where both people can grow. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Stop Performing for Love How to Create Emotional Safety in a Relationship How to Let Your Partner Be Vulnerable How to Build Connection Through Acceptance How to Communicate Without Getting Defensive How to Balance “Me Time” and “We Time” How to Love Without Trying to Fix Love is not a performance, it’s a practice. It’s built in the quiet moments when we choose to listen instead of defend, to understand instead of control, and to show up even when it feels uncomfortable. Every relationship, whether romantic or otherwise, becomes stronger when we replace judgment with curiosity and fear with honesty. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here. Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:54 Earning Love Through Real Connection 03:16 Why You Should Speak Up Early 06:51 Creating a Safe Space for Vulnerability 11:20 Can You Love Someone Without Loving Yourself? 13:55 How Acceptance Strengthens Your Relationship 20:37 Compatibility vs. Chemistry: What Matters More? 25:07 Do Couples Need Individual Therapy Too? 28:05 A Live Couples Therapy Session 44:06 Communicate Clearly Not Through Assumptions 47:08 Healthy Ways to Approach Conflict 51:28 Understanding the Many Forms of Love 57:46 Are Both of Your Needs Being Met? 01:01:44 Learning to Embrace and Communicate Differences Episode Resources: Lori Gottlieb | YouTube Lori Gottlieb | Instagram Lori Gottlieb | Website Dear Therapists Podcast Maybe You Should Talk to Someone See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 1:27Jay Shetty?

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• 2:29Lori Gottlieb?

  We feel like we have to earn our love. That we're not enough just to be there. That we have to somehow earn it through these external criteria. I have to be so attractive and so funny and so entertaining. And you do have to earn love, by the way, but you earn it by being relational.

• 2:48Jay Shetty?

  I'm so excited to finally share the live interviews from my very first podcast tour. This episode features my interview with Laurie Gottlieb at D A R Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. Wow, wow, wow, everyone. I am so excited to be here tonight at the D A R Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. with the one and only Laurie Gottlieb. Give it up for Laurie, everyone. Now Laurie has been a dear friend for the last few years and has been one of our most popular on purpose guests. She's been on the show at least three times and we're going to have her back on every year that she possibly can.

• 3:30Jay Shetty?

  So Laurie, to do this in person when we're usually in the studio is a real treat. So thank you so much for flying out as well. I'm so grateful that you're here.

• 3:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh, I'm so happy to be here with this wonderful crowd in D.C.

• 3:45Jay Shetty?

  I love it. So I want to dive straight in with you, Laurie, because I really want to dive into your mind. You have so many incredible insights. And something we've been talking about tonight is this idea of being worried about what people think of us. And the hardest person's perception that we take the most seriously is our partners.

• 4:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 4:05Jay Shetty?

  And a lot of us can sometimes feel we're performing in relationships to try and get that validation, to try and get that attention, to try and get that affection. Why do so many of us feel that way? And what do we do about it?

• 4:19Lori Gottlieb?

  It's interesting, you know, I think in the beginning of a relationship, there's this joke that you're not you, you're the ambassador of you. So, you know, we're all trying to put our best foot forward. We're trying to impress the other person. But I think that once we're in the relationship, we all have some part of us that worries that we're not lovable. And maybe we're going through something hard, or maybe we're not feeling great about ourselves. The other person is going through something, like they're having great success and we don't feel like we measure up. And so I think what happens is we feel like we have to earn our love, that we're not enough just to be there, that we have to somehow earn it through these external criteria. Like, I have to be so attractive and so funny and so entertaining

• 5:04Lori Gottlieb?

  and, you know, all the things. And what, you do have to earn love, by the way, but you earn it by being relational. So, people want to be in relationships with people who are relational. They don't want to be in relationships with people who can't listen, aren't emotionally generous, those kinds of things. But I think that, you know, when we think about performing in a relationship, that has to do with, I don't believe that you will love me if I don't earn your love. And that's a belief that we need to get rid of.

• 5:37Jay Shetty?

  How do we do that?

• 5:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, I think you need to understand that that's not the way that you earn love. So, the way you earn love, as I said, is being relational. It's not about all of these other things that we try to do, like I need to look this way or be this way. The person cares about you, they're with you. So, you need to show up. And I think that that's really the answer is, how do you, how can you be in a relationship with somebody? You have to show up. Otherwise, if you're just in your head the whole time, you're not even there.

• 6:07Jay Shetty?

  So many of the people that I speak to, and I'm sure a lot of you can agree with this, I think a lot of people feel that at one point in their relationship, they find that their partner doesn't want to open up. Doesn't want to talk about their feelings, isn't comfortable being vulnerable, and may actually be more closed off. So I often find in relationships, there's one person who wants to talk about everything. And then the other person doesn't want to talk about anything. And so even though we want to be relational, you often find that one person doesn't... Whether they don't have the emotional capacity, whether they don't feel they're ready, whether they don't even allow themselves to think about these things. What do you do when you're in a relation? Can everyone relate to that, by the way? Just make some noise. All right.

• 6:52Jay Shetty?

  When you're with someone like that, what do you do? Where do you start? Because you want to be with them. They're not being relational. They don't want to listen to you. They don't want to talk about their life. How do you navigate that?

• 7:05Lori Gottlieb?

  First of all, I think it's really important that you notice that at the beginning of a relationship. So many people will say, you know, "Oh, this person doesn't really open up," or "They're not really there. They're not really being vulnerable with me." But that's okay, because that will come. And then you keep going, and you think, "Okay, well, it will come later." But it's still not coming. Why do we do that? Why do we ignore that? Because it's almost like attribution bias. You know, it's like you want to attribute certain traits to the person that they don't actually have. And that's why I always say, at the beginning of a relationship, you want to bring things up. People are afraid to, for the reason that we said. You know, we want to be the ambassador of us at the beginning of the relationship.

• 7:48Lori Gottlieb?

  But actually, you want to bring things up early and often. And that's because relationships are like cement. If you let the cement dry, and so you say, "Okay, this will change later." Then you're going to have to get out a jackhammer, dig everything up, right? It's really hard. But if there's still room, you can say to your partner, "Hey, I'm having trouble making contact with you. What's going on? Is there something about the way that we're relating? Why is it, you know, I really want to get to know you better, but I'm having trouble really understanding what's going on inside." And some of that is gendered. Okay, so some of it is, a lot of times, men feel like, "If I open up and be vulnerable,

• 8:33Lori Gottlieb?

  then I'm gonna be perceived as weak, or I'm gonna be perceived, you know, differently." And, and there's some part of, of women that we need to learn to provide space for men to be vulnerable. Because what happens is, when, when I'm doing couples therapy, what I'll see is, if it happens to be a man and a woman, I will see that the woman will say to her partner, "I'm so glad you're here. I really wanna talk about all this stuff that we can't talk about, and I want you to tell me what's going on. I wanna really know what's going on inside of you." And then he opens up. And then maybe he tears up. Maybe he starts crying. And she's like, "Whoa." Right? So part of it is, "I don't feel safe when you don't open up to me,

• 9:18Lori Gottlieb?

  but I also, in a weird way, and I can't explain it, I don't feel safe when you're crying either." So, we need to make sure that we are providing the space for the, the partner who's not vulnerable to be vulnerable. We can ask them, "What would be helpful?" And, and I think we just don't ask the questions, and then we say, "Well, this person's not capable of it." They might be very capable of it if you give them the space.

• 9:42Jay Shetty?

  We're all looking for that safety.

• 9:44Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 9:45Jay Shetty?

  And we're so scared that if we showed our true selves, then it wouldn't be a safe space anymore. And that maybe that part of us will be too hard to handle, too hard to hold, too hard to embrace. And so we just lock it up inside, and we never share that, we never show that. And the challenge that happens is, the other person thinks you don't have the capacity, and actually, you're thinking, "Well, I don't think you actually have the capacity for me to be all of myself." And, and it really does require a lot from people to allow their partner to be all of themselves. How do we, how do we communicate?

• 10:27Jay Shetty?

  That we're ready to create a safe space for that person. And how do we actually create the resilience in ourselves to have the space for whatever may come? Like, I remember when I was talking to a couple a few years ago, it was similar to the gender play that you mentioned, where she was like, "I want you to be really, really open to the man." And he was just like, "Well, if I tell you this, I'm scared you won't like it." And then he opened up about some of the challenges he'd had in his past. And that really made her feel insecure about him, even though it wasn't to do with them. So it can be really complicated. How do we truly have emotional availability to make space for what someone has to say for us?

• 11:11Lori Gottlieb?

  That's such an important point, because it's not just saying that you have the space, it's actually having the space. And that's where it's hard for us sometimes to separate out who we are from who they are. So they're telling you something about them. And they're asking you to sit with them. They're inviting you to come closer. And we think, "Oh, they're telling me something that feels threatening to me." So when we talk about vulnerability, there's two kinds of vulnerability. There's vulnerability of, "I'm going to tell you something about my past that feels delicate to me." But what really kind of triggers the partner sometimes is, "I'm going to tell you something about you in relation to me that is delicate." And so how can we be vulnerable

• 11:55Lori Gottlieb?

  about something relational between us? And that's where couples get into a lot of trouble. Because instead of hearing the other person, they're getting defensive, they're feeling blamed, they're feeling criticized. When really, the invitation is, "Please come closer. I trust you, and I feel close to you." So isn't it funny how we hear the opposite message? We hear like, "Something's wrong with you, you're damaged, I'm criticizing you." That's what we're hearing. But actually, the invitation was the opposite. And that's because, in any moment, when there are two people in conversation, there are up to a dozen people in the room. And by that, I mean, think about who's in the room. Like, take attendance. Have any of you ever been talking to somebody else in the room,

• 12:40Lori Gottlieb?

  and it feels like it's not just the two of you? Anybody where it feels like, wow, something else, I don't know what just happened with the other person, but that's not what I said, that's not what I meant, that wasn't, you know, that, like, what conversation are they in? Well, that is because you need to say, you know, who's in the room? A parent, a grandparent, their parents, because of the generational patterns that have gone down through the generations, a teacher who's told you that you would never amount to something, the teacher who told you you were fabulous, you know, and the first boyfriend or girlfriend you had, like, all those people are in the room, but we don't know it.

• 13:21Lori Gottlieb?

  So you have to, if you're having a big reaction to something, we always say, if it's hysterical, it's historical. If you are having a reaction that feels outsized to what is actually being said, it's like you went from zero to sixty in your body, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Who else, who are these figures in the room? Take attendance, see who's in the room. And then who do you want to invite in the room, and who's not invited? And then tell the people very kindly, hey, Mom, hey, Dad, hey, Grandma, hey, sibling, you're not invited into this conversation, so you go, and I'm gonna come back into the conversation with this person that I'm talking to.

• 14:01Jay Shetty?

  Wow, I love that. I love that. That's so powerful. It resonates so strongly with so many interactions I can think of. I wanted to ask you, Laurie, can you truly love someone if you don't love yourself?

• 14:18Lori Gottlieb?

  I get asked that question all the time, and I think the better question is, can you truly accept someone if you don't accept yourself? One of the most loving things you can do to yourself and to other people is acceptance. And acceptance doesn't mean settling or compromising, it means embracing the fullness of the other person's humanity and embracing the fullness of your humanity.

• 14:45Lori Gottlieb?

  So when people say, you know, "Will you love me if?" Right? It's, "Do you accept me fully?" is really the question. And I don't think that you can accept someone else fully if you don't accept yourself fully. Because, you know, we can't order up people à la carte. You know, like, we think we can just order up anything the way we want nowadays. Just with like, you can order online, you can get anything. It's like, you know, "What are your special instructions? You know, leave this on the side." You can't do that with people. They just come the way they come. So you can't be like, "Yeah, I love everything about you, but I want to leave like, your anxiety on the side. I want to leave your neuroses on the side. I want to leave, you know, that history that you have with that other person on the side. I wish that didn't happen." You can't do that.

• 15:30Lori Gottlieb?

  So they come fully formed, no substitutions. It's the way it is on the menu. That's how they come. And you do too, by the way. So we forget, sometimes we think like, "I have to accept all these things about the other person." What about the things that they're accepting about you?

• 15:46Jay Shetty?

  Ooh.

• 15:47Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? And if you are truly honest about it, not like in a job interview when people say, you know, "What is your greatest weakness?" and you couch it as a strength, like, "I work too hard." Right? You know, "That's my greatest weakness is I'm just a perfectionist and I work too hard." Well, no, that's not on your list. The list has to be something real, like, "I can be really inflexible." Or, "I am still working on this one thing and that can be challenging for my partner." You know, whatever the things are, be honest. You know what the things are that you have to accept. And once you accept those in yourself, what happens is something kind of miraculous. Not only do you feel more loved because you are more accepted, but they become smaller.

• 16:31Lori Gottlieb?

  So those things that feel very huge to you, once you've said, "You know what? I'm not going to focus on them or obsess about them anymore," all of a sudden, they don't take up so much emotional real estate. It's like, "I just accept that about myself, moving on."

• 16:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's super powerful advice. There's a, that resonates so much more, the word acceptance versus love. Because I think love kind of gets convoluted when you're having that conversation, like, "Do I love myself? Do they love me? Do I love them?" Whereas acceptance kind of gets to the heart of it. And even as I was listening to it, I was thinking about like... I was talking to someone else yesterday about this and I was talking about me and my wife Radhi. And I was explaining that really acceptance is what helps our relationship work. We're very different people, we have very different priorities, and we have a lot of different things that we like and engage with,

• 17:29Jay Shetty?

  but we respect that that's what makes the other person attractive to us.

• 17:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 17:35Jay Shetty?

  So what I mean by that is, when Radhi met me, I'm the same person I've been, which is a mission-oriented, I'm very focused on my purpose. It's my top priority in life and I love it. And thankfully, knock on wood, in the last 12 years, Radhi's never said to me, "You work too much." Because she knows I love this, this is who I am, it's who I always was. And for Radhi, her top priority is her family, she loves them, her niece and her nephew, her grandma, her mom and dad, like her sister, like that's her top priority. And so she loves visiting them in England and going back, even though we live in LA. And I love that because I'm like, the reason why Radhi is so lovable is because of her loving relationship with her family. And so it becomes an acceptance point of recognizing that what...

• 18:19Jay Shetty?

  It's almost like you don't want to take away the secret sauce that makes your partner your partner, whether it's their ambition, whether it's the love for their family, whatever it may be. And when you respect it and accept it, it allows for things to blossom. Whereas when you try and take it away, you actually end up becoming their kryptonite.

• 18:37Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 18:37Jay Shetty?

  And you're making them weaker by taking away the very thing that they value. Does that make sense?

• 18:42Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, I think of relationships as almost like a relationship is like a startup. It's like you're building, you're co-founding this, whatever you're building. And every single relationship, it's like a snowflake, it's unique. There's no other relationship out there like it, there will be overlap. But the fact is, these two individuals coming together are creating something that no one else can create. And so if you take away something from one of the other people, that might be something that is really adds to the richness of the relationship. You don't want to change, you know, the person that you're with. You might, there might change interactions between you, that's different. So if you want to change the way that you relate to each other,

• 19:26Lori Gottlieb?

  but you don't want to change the essence of the person.

• 19:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I want to give another example of a weakness that I had, that I had to work on, which really helped me when it comes to this acceptance point. At one point in our relationship, I was always like, I was upset that Riley didn't organize more vacations. And I was the one doing all the organizing. Anyone can relate? If anyone's me in the relationship, yeah. And so I was upset about that, and I remember communicating that to her. And I said, "Look, like, I'd really appreciate it if you also organized the vacations." And she said something that was so honest to me, and it really, really resonated with me. She goes, "Jay, I would happily organize any of our vacations. But the problem is, if I organize it, you'll have a million pieces of feedback.

• 20:13Jay Shetty?

  But if you organized it, I'll just happily do whatever you want to do."

• 20:19Jay Shetty?

  And it took me a second, but she was spot on. I'm like a perfectionist, I want it done this way, I want it... And I realized, I was like, actually, she's the sweetest person in the world, because when I organize a vacation, she's happy to be a part of it and won't even ever say to me like, "Oh, I wish we did this, or we should have done this." Whereas I would be like that the whole time. And it was such a like, holding up a mirror to me. And I realized that I was the one discouraging her from taking responsibility in a relationship because of how I would respond. And that was a lot of self-awareness that I didn't have at that moment. And it was such a powerful thing to learn to accept, that even though I thought she wasn't doing something for me, actually it was because of how I was behaving.

• 21:05Lori Gottlieb?

  That happens so often. I remember when I was seeing this couple, she was saying, "You know, I want you to stop by on the way home from the gym. I want you to stop by to the market, and I want you to get these things." And they had a baby, and she wanted him to get organic strawberries. We did not have organic strawberries at Trader Joe's that day. So, what did he do? He got the regular strawberries.

• 21:29Jay Shetty?

  Oh, no. We know how this goes, guys.

• 21:32Lori Gottlieb?

  Now, I want to say hashtag first world problems, right? But, at the same time, these are like the tiny... What do people fight about most? There are these tiny things that mean something much bigger. So for her, this meant, "You don't pay attention to what's important for me and our baby." Right? And for him, it was like, "No, I did. I did exactly what you asked. And if I had done it my way, I would have gone to the other place, and maybe they would have had organic strawberries. But I was following your directions, so I wouldn't get in trouble." And then I got in trouble anyway. So, these are the kinds of things when we try to control our partners, we're not giving them the autonomy to creatively do the things

• 22:16Lori Gottlieb?

  that actually would enhance the relationship. And when, you know, when we look at what is the number one trait... There are two... There, when we say like, "What makes couples work?" Okay? Emotional stability. And that means like, you basically, you know, have... You're working on your stuff. And the second thing is flexibility, that you have to be flexible. And so, if you're the perfectionist in the relationship and you're trying to control your partner, that's gonna make you very, very difficult to live with. And, and, what will happen is you will start to lose control. Because now that person doesn't want to pay attention. They don't trust you.

• 23:00Lori Gottlieb?

  They're gonna try to go around you because they're... You know, it's kind of like, we say that you need an aquarium in a relationship, also with parenting. But an aquarium is like, if it's a fishbowl, it's too tight. It's like, too constrained. If it's an aquarium, there's no rules. Nobody knows what's going on. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel safe. An aquarium is just right. Can you give the other person the equivalent of an aquarium? So they have room to swim, but there are also certain agreed-upon rules in the relationship.

• 23:28Jay Shetty?

  Got it. That makes sense. I've been down to ask you this question, Laurie. You've, you know, coached couples and relationships for decades now and, you know, been in therapy with couples, individuals, everything. I wanted to ask you, what is the difference between compatibility and chemistry? And which one's more important?

• 23:48Lori Gottlieb?

  Let's do a poll.

• 23:51Jay Shetty?

  Let's do it.

• 23:51Lori Gottlieb?

  Let's do it.

• 23:52Jay Shetty?

  That's the fun of getting to do it with all of you.

• 23:53Lori Gottlieb?

  Who thinks that compatibility is more important than chemistry?

• 23:57Jay Shetty?

  Make some noise.

• 24:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, and now the chemistry folks?

• 24:04Jay Shetty?

  Make some noise.

• 24:06Lori Gottlieb?

  All right, all right. There's a good, there's a good amount for each. But here's the, the answer that I would give. And this is from seeing couples for all of these years. And I will say that I think that the most important form of chemistry is compatibility.

• 24:23Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 24:24Lori Gottlieb?

  So you're all right.

• 24:26Lori Gottlieb?

  And what I mean by that. So compatibility is, do we vibe? Do we have the same ideas about how we like to have fun? Do we have the same ideas about our goals for ourselves and for our relationship? Do we bring out the best in each other? That's like red hot chemistry, right? But it's compatibility too. Some people would say that chemistry is, I always feel on edge with this person, but wow, that person's so hot, right? Well, the other person can be really hot. That's part of your compatibility too. But you need the other things. If you bring out the best in each other, that is chemistry and compatibility all wrapped in one.

• 25:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I agree. I love that answer. Yeah, go, give it up. There's, um, you reminded me of this amazing study that I read that I loved, which was talking about how when you meet someone and you feel the spark or the chemistry, really what it is, is anxiety and excitement at the same time. So it's like excitement and stress. I'll give you an example. The excitement is, oh my gosh, they're hot, right? The stress is, do they think I'm hot, right? The excitement is, oh my gosh, I got their number, I'm gonna text them. The stress is, are they gonna text me back? The excitement is, I thought we had a great date. The stress is, do they think we had a great date?

• 25:55Jay Shetty?

  And so that's what chemistry chemically actually is. It's stress and excitement. Now, what's really interesting, what this study said is that over time, when you get to know someone and you've spent time together, your stress goes down. Because now you're used to being around them. You know they like you. You know they like being around you. You know they're gonna text you back. And so because the stress goes down, excitement kind of starts to diminish. And you now think it's boredom, when actually it's peace. Right? So it's this really weird idea that compatibility is boring and chemistry is exciting. But really, real great compatibility is a sense of peace,

• 26:40Jay Shetty?

  that we actually feel peaceful around each other. I now don't feel on edge around you and I don't have to worry about whether you like me. And that's why it's so interesting how so many relationships go through this boredom era, when you've got to actually check in with yourself and say, are we bored? Or have I just lost the stress of them liking me and texting me back and messaging me?

• 27:01Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, but what you get instead is you get the dopamine of, this person loves me, right? Like there's something... All of the people who are dealing with what you said of, you know, the date went well? Did they think the date went well? Did, you know, I got their number? Are they gonna call me back? You know, all of that. That is... So when people are going through that, you know what they say in therapy? When they tell you what they're really feeling? They say, "All I want is to feel safe. I want peace. I want all of that, right? I just wanna feel good and I know that this person likes me and I wanna have fun with them." That's what they want. And then when they have that, they say, "Oh no, I want the other thing. I want that other thing at the beginning." You weren't happy at the beginning. You were stressed out all the time. You were like, is the person gonna call? What's gonna happen?

• 27:45Lori Gottlieb?

  What did it mean that the person waited this many hours between the text and the time that I... Right? Nobody enjoys that. They think they did in retrospect, but at the time, when they're reporting it, they're like, "I hate this."

• 27:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. We forget very quickly how anxious and nervous and stressed we were at the start when we were dating someone and what that looked like.

• 28:19Jay Shetty?

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• 29:02Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Orange Theory Fitness. One of the best investments you can make is in your own strength. The choices you make today can help shape how you feel for years to come. Orange Theory Fitness provides a one-hour workout to build strength, burn fat, and build muscle, with an expert coach guiding you every step of the way. Head to orangetheory.com/onpurpose to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage and studio for details.

• 29:44Speaker 02

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• 30:22Jay Shetty?

  Before we go on to something really exciting and interesting I want to do with the audience, I wanted to ask you one more question, which is this idea of should couples in therapy also be going to individual therapy? And how do you... You happy to ask that question?

• 30:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Several people have that question.

• 30:37Jay Shetty?

  How do you figure that out? Like, do you go individual therapy? Do you also do couples therapy? Do you only do couples therapy? Like, how do you figure that out?

• 30:44Lori Gottlieb?

  I think that in a lot of ways, couples therapy is individual therapy, and at least the way that I do it. And what I do is, before people come into therapy, I say to each person separately, "If you are going to be the best version of yourself in this relationship, regardless of what the other person does, what do you want to work on? What is one thing that you want to work on?" And I ask each of them that. They don't tell each other what it is. It just... That's their sort of individual goal in the therapy. And so no matter what happens in the therapy, the whole time, they are working on... Each of them is working on that one goal. And guess what happens? As each person is kind of doing their individual work, you don't change another person, but

• 31:28Lori Gottlieb?

  you influence another person. So now, "Oh, I am being more aware of this now, and look at the effect it's having on the other person." It's a virtuous cycle. So instead of like the vicious cycle of, "Well, we're doing this dance, and what I do upsets this person, and what they do upsets me," it's like, "I'm doing something different, and they're responding well to it. Now they're responding well to it, and they're responding well to it." It keeps going back and forth. And I think that's so interesting, because, you know, often, in a relationship, we have this way of thinking, like, "If I snap at you, it's because I was tired and my boss was really demanding today. If you snap at me, it's because you're disrespectful and you don't care about me." Right?

• 32:10Jay Shetty?

  That's real, yeah.

• 32:11Lori Gottlieb?

  So, so what happens is we have context. Because we know in our own mind why we did what we did. And we think we know why the other person did what they did, but we have zero context for it. We don't know. And because we feel hurt by it, we don't ask. So I think it's really important to consider that we don't know the whole story. And so when you're doing couples therapy, you're working with the individuals at the same time. You can't just work with a couple and you can't just work with like, here's our problem. It's like, here's my stuff, here's my history, here's like all the 12 people I'm bringing in the room. Here's you, your stuff, your history, the 12 people you're bringing in the room.

• 32:55Lori Gottlieb?

  Let's disinvite the people who don't need to be here. Let's talk about what is going on underneath the problem of who's doing the laundry.

• 33:03Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Well said, well said, Laurie. Amazing. All right, well, you know, the joy of doing this live with all of you, usually we're in a studio, the joy of doing this live, first of all, I just want to say how much this means to me because I absolutely love this. I wish we could do every podcast like this. It's so fun to see what resonates with you and what connects with you and what you relate to. But I just want to get a shot of hands. How many couples do we have in the house tonight? Raise your hand if you're with your partner tonight. Okay, amazing, quite a few, I love that. Now, look, every, every couple, as I was sharing with me and Radhi too, every couple goes through disagreements and things like that. I want to give someone the opportunity to have and do an exercise with Laurie on stage right now.

• 33:48Jay Shetty?

  So if you have any couples that would love to join us on stage, raise your hands, I'm going to come out and talk to you. Raise your hands.

• 33:54Lori Gottlieb?

  Hello. This is going to be fun. Hi. Hi. It's going to be super fun.

• 34:04Jay Shetty?

  All right.

• 34:20Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay. Well, first of all, thank you guys. You guys are so brave. I'm not part of the relationship. I'm just sitting here. We might bring Jay in for some mediation. So, okay, tell us your names.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  I'm Stephanie.

• 34:33Lori Gottlieb?

  Stephanie?

• 34:34Speaker 04

  Nico.

• 34:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Nico. Okay. So, how are you guys at acting?

• 34:42Speaker 03

  Not very good.

• 34:43Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, well, we're gonna do our best. He's terrified. No, no. Behind those doors, I think that I'm pretty good at it.

• 34:53Lori Gottlieb?

  All right. So I'm casting a play. And you're playing Nico. You're playing Stephanie.

• 35:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Nico.

• 35:08Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay. What is this person's name right here? Everybody say it.

• 35:11Jay Shetty?

  Nico.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  I'm Nico.

• 35:13Lori Gottlieb?

  Good. What is this person's name over here?

• 35:15Jay Shetty?

  Stephanie.

• 35:17Lori Gottlieb?

  All right. So, I want you guys to hold with the non-mic hand, hold hands. And we do this a lot in couples therapy because your nervous system calms down. It keeps you connected. And Nico, can you tell me what the issue is with Stephanie? And when I say what the issue is, not just what the issue is, but what does it make you feel? What comes up for you?

• 35:44Speaker 03

  I guess just like worry and stress, just overwhelm of emotions.

• 35:50Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, but what's the issue? What is the issue that you guys are disagreeing about?

• 35:55Speaker 03

  I guess the worthy of yourself.

• 36:02Lori Gottlieb?

  Meaning, so what happens between the two of you when you're disagreeing about...

• 36:07Speaker 03

  I guess I just don't like, sometimes feel like I level up to the expectation of how I should be.

• 36:13Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh, how Stephanie wants you to be. Tell me more about what you think Stephanie, what Stephanie wants from you. What does Stephanie want you to be like?

• 36:24Speaker 03

  I guess just like the best I can do in any aspect. Like as a mom, as a partner, just to be able to be present for the other person.

• 36:36Lori Gottlieb?

  So Stephanie wants you to be a good mom?

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Listener.

• 36:40Lori Gottlieb?

  You're Nico.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  I'm getting confused.

• 36:45Jay Shetty?

  You're Nico.

• 36:46Lori Gottlieb?

  You're Nico. Right, so you're Nico. It's okay, it's hard to get into the mindset of...

• 36:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, I just feel all the...

• 36:51Lori Gottlieb?

  So you're Nico.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  I'm Nico, okay.

• 36:54Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay.

• 36:55Speaker 03

  So I think...

• 36:56Lori Gottlieb?

  And Stephanie is not listening to this.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 36:59Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, so you're Nico and you're telling me what you feel like you can't tell Stephanie. About, how does she make you feel about whether you're

• 37:11Lori Gottlieb?

  living up to her expectations?

• 37:14Speaker 03

  I'm confused.

• 37:19Speaker 03

  So this is as, so I'm Nico and I'm communicating.

• 37:24Lori Gottlieb?

  So you're Nico. And what is going on with you and Stephanie? What is, what are you feeling like?

• 37:30Jay Shetty?

  From Nico's perspective, what are you seeing as the challenge?

• 37:33Speaker 03

  I guess just like the overwhelm of supporting for the family. And letting Stephanie know that I am doing my best

• 37:45Speaker 03

  to take care of myself and you. But I also need to focus on like, my mental health.

• 37:55Lori Gottlieb?

  And what does it feel like when you feel like Stephanie isn't, doesn't feel like you're doing your best?

• 38:03Speaker 03

  I guess just like annoyance?

• 38:07Speaker 03

  That they're not understanding of what I'm feeling.

• 38:10Lori Gottlieb?

  What does Stephanie not understand?

• 38:16Speaker 03

  That I also need to have me time.

• 38:22Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, and what happens, why do you think Stephanie has trouble giving you the space to have me time?

• 38:31Speaker 03

  Because I think she also wants me time and that understanding that there is a balance and if you get this, I have to have that too.

• 38:41Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, so it has to be sort of equalized in Stephanie's mind?

• 38:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:46Lori Gottlieb?

  But not in your mind?

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:48Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, all right. Stephanie, what's going on for you?

• 38:54Speaker 04

  So, I can see why this is hard, switching to that mindset.

• 39:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, you know, Nico works from home and he goes to his computer early in the morning and I have to, you know, obviously help out with Natalia, our baby girl, and, you know, I might see him that he might go for a run in the middle of the day and there's something that, you know, and I think that Nico does that because he just wants to clear his mind and he wants to provide for his family, but, you know, maybe if I do something that's not necessarily me being glued to my desk, then Stephanie might, or Nico.

• 39:48Speaker 04

  I get upset if maybe I don't see Nico, if he's not 100% working at his desk and he might be doing something that, you know, he might be dedicating time for him and I'm not getting that and I'm, you know, I also want to be doing my things and I'm not able to do that and I'm jealous that maybe Nico is doing that.

• 40:09Lori Gottlieb?

  You know why you guys are having so much trouble remembering who the other person is? Because you have the exact same complaint.

• 40:18Lori Gottlieb?

  That you both feel like the other person doesn't give you enough me time and the other person doesn't understand why you need it.

• 40:30Lori Gottlieb?

  So this is interesting because normally when I do this with couples, one person has one perspective on something, the other person has a completely different perspective on it. You guys literally have the same complaint.

• 40:44Lori Gottlieb?

  So what I want you to do is I want you to imagine, while you're in your roles, how you come across to the other person. So I'm gonna bring you back to your actual selves. So you're Stephanie, you're Nico, okay? I want you to act out, Stephanie, how you think and make it really big and make it really exaggerated. How you come across to Nico when you're frustrated with him and you want me time or you don't like him having me time.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  I feel like I sometimes act like a child.

• 41:20Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, let's see it. Actually, actually.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 41:23Lori Gottlieb?

  Go for it. And by the way, we all have these moments that are normally not on a stage. So please know that every single person in this audience has done this, just in the privacy of their own home.

• 41:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Or on my couch.

• 41:42Speaker 03

  Goodness gracious, babe, you don't listen.

• 41:46Speaker 03

  I need to just do me, have a moment for myself, stop thinking about yourself and just listen.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Baby, I have a lot.

• 41:56Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, no, no, I'm not asking you to respond.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  I'm ready.

• 42:00Lori Gottlieb?

  That was a great performance.

• 42:03Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, Nico, tell Stephanie what it feels like when she does that.

• 42:13Lori Gottlieb?

  About you, you're only gonna talk about you. You're not gonna say you this, you're gonna talk about yourself. I feel...

• 42:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Baby, you know how I like to be approached. I'm very, just big on, you know, thinking before you say something.

• 42:28Lori Gottlieb?

  No, no, you're telling her, you're telling her what to do.

• 42:29Speaker 04

  I don't like triggering words, I don't like it when...

• 42:31Lori Gottlieb?

  I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you some like a multiple choice.

• 42:34Speaker 04

  Okay, okay.

• 42:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Cause we don't know, we need like, it's almost like, you know, we don't, we didn't get a lot of training on like, what are the feelings, right? We know like mad, sad, happy, but we don't know anything in between. It's like we know the primary colors, but we don't know the shades. What I saw here was, I feel angry, I feel shame. Does that resonate?

• 42:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, tell her about the shame.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  It's like how I'm trying to fix this?

• 43:05Lori Gottlieb?

  No, just tell her what the shame is like, I feel...

• 43:08Jay Shetty?

  How it feels when you feel, when she says that to you, when she acts in that way to you, how does that shame feel to you?

• 43:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, I just, I feel like I'm trying to juggle a lot and it doesn't make me feel like hurt or my, my point of view is being listened to.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  You know, I just wish that it was more of a conversation instead of like an attack.

• 43:32Lori Gottlieb?

  I wanna go back to the shame only because I think that that's sort of the core of, what does it mean if you disappoint her? So she's disappointed by you, rightly or wrongly, I'm not gonna get into that, although I do have an opinion about it. But, she's disappointed. And she's saying, "I want to feel safe, I want you to provide, I want you to use your time well, I want you to be productive." And you feel like...

• 44:07Lori Gottlieb?

  If I don't do that for her, then I feel bad about myself. Tell her about the part that it makes you feel bad about yourself.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, Viv, you know, I'm very supportive of you and I do feel bad when I see you stressed out in those situations. And I do wanna make sure that you get as much time as possible. It's just hard for me to...

• 44:32Lori Gottlieb?

  But you're talking about her, and I want you to talk about you. And this is really hard. But what is it? What happens for you when you feel ashamed? Like, I'm not... I can't measure up to what you want, so I'm gonna shut down? I'm gonna stop listening to you?

• 44:52Lori Gottlieb?

  What happens to you?

• 44:54Speaker 04

  I do shut down.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  I guess it's hard sometimes to have that conversation and listen. And I just...

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I shut down. I don't...

• 45:08Lori Gottlieb?

  Can you act out for her? What a different approach would be? For her to say what she wants to say, but it doesn't look like the way she approaches you?

• 45:21Speaker 04

  How I would want her to...

• 45:22Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, what would you like her to say to you instead?

• 45:26Speaker 04

  Baby, do you think I can, you know, between one and two, have some me time?

• 45:33Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, when she's feeling like there's a contest between who gets more me time. What would you like her to say to you instead?

• 45:47Speaker 04

  You know, baby, I... This... I need me time to focus on myself. This really helps me as a person and just mentally. And I think it would help our relationship more if, you know, maybe I just had an hour here to meditate and listen to my Jay Shetty podcast and...

• 46:03Lori Gottlieb?

  All the time, all the time.

• 46:07Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay. And so I want you to say that to him right now? That's what he wants you to say to him? Go ahead and say it.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  So baby, I think I need this one to two hours to really focus.

• 46:18Lori Gottlieb?

  Wait, I don't think he said two.

• 46:19Speaker 04

  I don't think he said two.

• 46:20Lori Gottlieb?

  I don't think he said two.

• 46:21Speaker 03

  I'm saying three now.

• 46:23Lori Gottlieb?

  I think he said one, and I think that was generous.

• 46:26Speaker 03

  One is good.

• 46:29Speaker 03

  So I need this hour to focus on myself and my mental health and it'll make me, you know, listen to my Shetty Shetty podcast.

• 46:42Lori Gottlieb?

  And the question might be, is that okay?

• 46:45Speaker 03

  Is that okay?

• 46:46Lori Gottlieb?

  And what can we do for you to have that? So I'm adding to that.

• 46:52Speaker 03

  So is that okay and what can I do in order for that to happen?

• 46:58Lori Gottlieb?

  What does that feel like to you when she says that? Does that feel different from how it normally goes?

• 47:03Speaker 04

  A little bit, yeah.

• 47:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah?

• 47:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  I'm also on a schedule, right? There's a lot of things that I'm trying to manage and when it's just like, hey, like I need an hour here and I'm just like, well, I want to give it to you, but I don't, you know, I have a meeting at nine and then I have to get work done from the next three hours and then I'm more of like on a schedule and it's tough for me to maybe just step away from my desk or just do something just randomly in the day of like an hour of...

• 47:34Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay. So what you're requesting, the two things I want you to take away from this. One is, how does the approach differ? It helped a little bit, you said? And then also, what are some of the practical parts of this? Like, for example, when you approach me, I can't necessarily just drop everything on a dime. So you're smiling because it sounds like that's what you've been asking for, right?

• 47:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, okay. So you can understand that he's trying and he wants you to have me time and he needs some me time, but what's not being taken into account is he can't just do it spontaneously like that. So can you find a way to, so that he doesn't then argue back, well, I can't and this and that, and then you feel shut down and then he feels shut down and then it's like we didn't even do this interaction? So you're going to ask differently?

• 48:27Lori Gottlieb?

  And you're going to make sure that you ask, maybe the night before, like, "Hey, here's what I'm thinking. Does this work?" And I want you guys to see what that would be like. And I want you to see what happens when it's a request and not a demand. Because when you acted it out, it was a demand. When you did what he said, it might work better, and it worked slightly better, that was a request. So here's one example. Normally, people have very different ideas about things, and it really helps them. These two have exactly the same issue. So this exercise was a little bit different, but I hope these two takeaways are going to be helpful.

• 49:04Lori Gottlieb?

  All right. Thank you, guys, for coming up. How do you guys think they did?

• 49:07Jay Shetty?

  Go ahead, Stephanie, everyone. Very, very, very brave to come and do that in front of 2,500 people.

• 49:18Jay Shetty?

  It takes a lot. And as you can see, I love what Laurie was doing, because it really shows us, like, we don't get to sit inside of these exercises. We only get to sit inside of our own. And when you're inside someone else's therapy exercise, you start to recognize just how we don't have the emotional vocabulary. We don't have the communication skills. And it's not our fault. It's because no one's ever taught us them. And so a lot of us are learning. And so having that bit of grace when we're with our partners to recognize that we can't expect people to have these emotional skills. We often expect people, Laurie, to just get us. Right? We expect our partners to just get us.

• 50:02Jay Shetty?

  Like, it's common sense. You should get it. And we don't.

• 50:06Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, it's so interesting, because we believe that that's the true test of love. Like, "Do you just get me?" And it's interesting, because you think when we're babies, we don't have words. And the only way that we can communicate is by crying. And the parents are dancing around, like, "Oh, my gosh. Is the... Are you hungry? Are you cold? Are you hot? Are you tired? Do you need a diaper change?" We don't know what it means. But then we grow up, and we expect our partner to, like, solve the problem in the same way, except now we do have words, and we can use those words. But our first loving experience was all about how much was my parent, or caregiver, whoever, able to guess, like we want our partners to do, what I needed in that moment?

• 50:48Jay Shetty?

  Wow. Wow.

• 50:50Lori Gottlieb?

  And now, and now what we have instead is, so then we have words and we can say, hey, I'm hot, I'm cold, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I'm tired, right? And we learn how to do that. Somehow with our partners, we think, I don't need to tell them that. They should just know. Because it's our early experience of loving. It's our earliest is of being loved. And so now what we have instead is we need to learn the operating instructions of our partner. So everybody comes with, you know, their history, the things that work well with them. Don't push this button, do push this button more, right? With our partners, we all know that about our partners. But then we think, well, they should just guess. Why don't you just tell them so you can get what you want?

• 51:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? Why do we make it so hard on our partner? Just tell them, these are my operating instructions. What are yours?

• 51:45Jay Shetty?

  I want to give a big shout out to Nico and Stephanie for having the courage to do that. And I want to take it out to all of you. I want to take some of your questions. Me and Laurie are both here. Would love to answer your questions. Paige, where are you Paige? There you are. Paige from my team, give Paige a round of applause, everyone, please. Paige from my team is going to come around and hand you the mic if you have a question. So raise your hand if you have a question and Paige will come and find you.

• 52:18Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with wifi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast. Choose a cellar or northeast regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want

• 53:03Jay Shetty?

  and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process and once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees, so you keep every dollar you earn. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980.

• 53:49Jay Shetty?

  That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online.

• 54:19Speaker 05

  Hi.

• 54:20Jay Shetty?

  Hello, what's your name?

• 54:21Speaker 05

  I'm Priya.

• 54:22Jay Shetty?

  Priya, nice to meet you. What's your question?

• 54:25Speaker 05

  My question is more of a scenario. If you were going somewhere with your partner, and let's say you had a disagreement and there was something that really bothered you, what's the best way to handle that situation so that you're happy and your partner's happy? And do you speak when you're upset, or do you wait? And how should you communicate that? What's the best way to communicate that?

• 54:50Lori Gottlieb?

  I feel like when we, something happens, we feel like we have to resolve this right now. And if we don't resolve it right now, it's gonna live with us all night and it's gonna ruin our time. But you're so worked up about it that you haven't thought about it, you haven't processed it, you aren't giving the other person grace at this moment. So that is not the time to try to resolve it. What you need in that moment is to say to each other, "Hey, we really care about each other. We're having this disagreement. We know, we are confident." And you have to have confidence that "We know how to resolve things. We're gonna resolve this later. Let's go have a good time."

• 55:34Lori Gottlieb?

  And people think, "I can't do that because I'm gonna be thinking about it the whole time." Well, that's your choice. But I wanna say, it's a choice. It is a very volitional choice. People say, "I can't help what I think about." Yes, you can. So, a lot of times in relationships, you have lots of choices that you can make. You choose not to make them.

• 55:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, well said. And Priya, I would say that, you know, for me, there's two things that come to mind. One thing is what Laurie's saying, this idea that sometimes I'll get some friends call me in a panic, like, "Jay, I've got an issue." And maybe I'm on stage when I'm getting it and I'll be like, "Call me back in three days." And the reason why I say that sometimes is because unless it's life or death, usually in three days when I message them and go, "Hey, what about that issue?" They're like, "Nah, it's alright now." Like, you know, it was just this panic moment. And so I think there is something to be said for that. For me and Radhi, I talk a lot about, in my book, Eight Rules of Love that I wrote, I talk a lot about fight styles. And I realized, it took me a while to realize that me and Radhi had different fight styles. So my fight style is the venter, the talker, the fixer.

• 56:41Jay Shetty?

  Like, I wanna fix it now. So if I'm on that date, I wanna fix it right now. And Radhi's is the hyder. She wants to think about it, reflect, introspect, and have time. So I wanna talk about it right now. She wants to talk about it in three days. And what we had to realize was, like Laurie said, have the confidence to say, "Okay, we're gonna meet in the middle. We'll talk about it tomorrow." Right? "We're gonna go out and have that great time. We're gonna meet in the middle. I wanna talk about it now. You need three days to process. In one and a half days, we'll take a look at it." Because right now, it's not worth our time. You're not even ready. And actually, even though I wanna fix it now, I actually don't know enough to do that. And so recognizing the different ways in which you approach conflict. Because what I used to think before is,

• 57:24Jay Shetty?

  "Well, if you wanna talk about it in three days, that means you don't care as much as I do." Which isn't true. She's actually saying, "Well, the fact you wanna talk about it now means you don't care as much as I do, because I want time to think about it." So you've gotta build up that understanding of the way you both respond to conflict. And taking Laurie's advice, recognize that now's not the time or the place. And we're probably gonna be in a better mindset if we let this go and deal with it at a proper time and place. So I love Laurie's advice.

• 57:52Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. And also, you have to realize that the connection is not severed. Just because you have a disagreement doesn't mean that the connection has been damaged in any way. People are gonna have disagreements all the time. And it's kind of like, when you start a new exercise and you start building up muscle, you need to build up the muscle of, "We know how to resolve differences between us." And so the more you do it, so the first time, it might be a little shaky. The second time, it still might be a little shaky. But every time, you learn something new about how we resolve differences together. And then, when you resolve differences all the time, it's like, "Oh yeah, we had a difference. We're gonna still have a good night, because our connection is strong. We're confident we can resolve it later."

• 58:32Jay Shetty?

  Thanks, Priya. I hope that helps. Thank you so much for your question.

• 58:39Jay Shetty?

  Hey, man. What's your name?

• 58:40Speaker 06

  Hi, Jay. I'm Snail.

• 58:42Jay Shetty?

  Snail, nice to be here.

• 58:43Speaker 06

  My wife's not here today, but I came with my sister, but um...

• 58:47Lori Gottlieb?

  Then you can tell us everything.

• 58:48Speaker 06

  Exactly. She's not here, so it's uh... No, but my question is like... Sometimes, you know, we don't communicate. Like, we're just sitting there. And I'm gonna give a scenario. But, you know, sometimes I'm really trying hard to understand, you know, but there's no communication.

• 59:09Speaker 06

  And the biggest thing that I struggle with is, you know, the love language is gifting, right? Like, what, you know, what to get her on her birthday? Or what to get her for, you know, a certain event? And then you spend so much time, and then you get her something, and you see the reaction on the face, and it's not always perfect. So, you know, but sometimes I hate it, right? It's like, you know, sometimes I get it, and sometimes I don't. But what do you do to kind of really understand? What is it that that other person wants? Right? And, um, yeah, that's my question.

• 59:46Jay Shetty?

  Thank you.

• 59:47Speaker 06

  I know my wife's probably gonna watch this video my sister took, but, uh, yeah, yeah.

• 59:53Jay Shetty?

  Thanks for that question, Larry.

• 59:54Lori Gottlieb?

  So, this goes back to the mind-reading that we were talking about, that people think somehow, you know, if you loved me that much, you would know what gift I want, and you would not get it wrong. But I think there's something so beautiful to kind of turn it around and kind of turn it on its side, is to say, "I love you so much that it hurts me to disappoint you." And so, if you could give me a list of like five things, and I will surprise you with the one, with one of them, but at least now I have some idea of, you want all of these things, you will be happy with all of them, and I can show my love by getting you exactly what you want. You won't know which one it is, so it's still kind of a surprise.

• 1:00:38Lori Gottlieb?

  But I think that we have to understand that there's different ways to love people. And one way to love someone is to say, "Making you happy is my way of loving you. So, can you help me with that?"

• 1:00:52Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I completely agree. I think... So when me and Radhi first started dating, my love language was gifts, as in I like receiving gifts. But I like surprises. And this all goes back to childhood. My mom, we didn't have a lot growing up, but my mom would surprise me with the one gift I always wanted on my birthday. Right? And it could be the smallest thing, but I remember it so well. So when I first started dating Radhi, and I hadn't really thought that through, and I wasn't aware of that, I wanted her to surprise me with a gift. So she kind of knew that I wanted a tablet, right? And my birthday came around. This tablet-sized box was there. It was wrapped up in gift wrapping, whatever. I open it up. I take it out, it's a tablet box.

• 1:01:37Jay Shetty?

  It's an Asus. What the hell is an Asus? Right? And I'm mortified. I'm like, I'm like, what's an Asus? Like, I was trying to read it. I'm like, am I even reading it right? Is it SUSE? Is it Asus? Is it like? And I'm like, tablets are iPads, right? Like, there's an iPad, there's nothing, like, there's nothing else. And so, I am mortified that she got me an Asus. And I remember talking to her about this, and then she was like, but she was like, "Yeah, but I spoke to my dad and my brother-in-law, and you know, they were telling me Asus is the best deal, and the spec is really good." And I'm like, "My mom doesn't care about what the best deal is. I just want the best tablet." And so I've been there, I know what that feels like.

• 1:02:19Jay Shetty?

  And gifting in our relationship was a long-time conversation. And it really did take that, where it got to a point where I was like, "I'm setting up the person I love for failure." I'm literally setting them up for failure. By wanting them to guess, wanting them to get it right, wanting them to know the perfect thing. I'm setting them up for failure. And guess what? No one wants to feel like a failure in a relationship. And so when you can openly say that to someone too jealous and saying, hey, look like what Laurie was saying, like, I don't want to feel like a failure. Like, I love you. I want you to have the best birthday ever. But I need you to help me understand what that looks like for you and what that means.

• 1:03:01Jay Shetty?

  And yes, I hope that one day I will be able to understand because we've talked about it so much. But without the communication and without that, I just won't know, right? I just won't know. And so it's it's hard in your situation because you're on the receiving end, you're the Radhi in the relationship. But but that's where we got to in the end. And and I realized, and obviously over time, I realized how wrong I was for my approach and my perspective on it. And it made me realize how much our childhood, as Laurie was saying earlier, has programmed us to believe what a perfect birthday is. Now I've changed my views on what a perfect birthday is because of that negative experience, because of making the person I've loved feel that way.

• 1:03:45Jay Shetty?

  And so I hope that stays with you to take Laurie's advice, to really communicate that, to make that point that, hey, I want you to have the best birthday. I don't want to let you down. I I don't want to feel like a failure. I want you to have something amazing. But I need your help because I can't read minds. I wish I could, but I can't, and no one else can. By the way, not even Radhi can. And, you know, Jay said that, you know, he's kind of like you. So hopefully that helps too.

• 1:04:08Lori Gottlieb?

  And I I think that that childhood stuff is so important because we think, you know, if you were someone who got everything, your mom did it perfectly. Then you think, well, that's what that's what feeling special is like. So if she doesn't do that, then she doesn't think I'm special. Or if you didn't get the gifts that you wanted because you think my parents didn't really know me, like I was an artist and they got me like a baseball bat, you know, it's like, what? Like, do you even know me? That's what you then you project that onto your partner. It's not that your partner doesn't know you, but, you know, the fine tuning of it, sometimes they need some help.

• 1:04:40Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. And I realized I did tell my mom, she was just sneaky at finding out. Like, it's not like she knew. I would tell her, I was like, I want a Power Ranger. It was very.

• 1:04:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, that's sneaky, Jay. That's really sneaky. I want a Power Ranger.

• 1:04:53Jay Shetty?

  But it's like you did, like, they didn't read your mind either, like, find out in a multitude of ways. All right, next question.

• 1:05:00Speaker 07

  I actually had to write mine down because I thought I was gonna get nervous. Okay, so my question is, am I being selfish or showing narcissistic traits for needing more time and attention in a relationship? Or is it valid to simply express what I needed to feel connected and valued?

• 1:05:24Lori Gottlieb?

  So if you were to ask Instagram this question, you guys all know what the answer on Instagram is, right? "No, you're not a narcissist. You should have all the time and attention that you need." Right? That's the Instagram answer. I have a slightly more nuanced answer. And I think that we have to really understand that being in a relationship is relational, that the person that you're with has needs too. And so when for them it feels too demanding, the question is, are they getting their needs met too? Because usually when they think the other person's too demanding, it means that there's not enough room

• 1:06:08Lori Gottlieb?

  for both of you in the relationship. So that's really your guide. Like, do both of you feel like you're getting your needs met? Do both of you feel like there's enough room there? So it's not just a cut and dry, you know, "Well, of course, all of my needs should be met for how much time I want to spend with them," right? It's a conversation and it evolves.

• 1:06:29Jay Shetty?

  I think it comes down to a few things. The first thing I'd say is,

• 1:06:36Jay Shetty?

  are you clear about what that means? Like, for example, if it's unclear, like, "I wish that person would message me all day, call me twice a day, be there for me every evening." You know, it's like, that can be a lot, and it may not be clear. Whereas if it's clear, like, "Hey, I just want to spend two hours with you on a Saturday afternoon and have it just be us." Right? It's really clear, it's really specific, it's really organized. Or is it like, "Hey, I just need you all the time." And so much of this comes down to our attachment styles and how the other person makes us feel as well. I think the challenge we have in your question is we don't know enough about the other person in the relationship.

• 1:07:17Jay Shetty?

  And often I've seen it that if the other person's prioritizing a bunch of other stuff, and you don't feel prioritized, and you're not a part of the priorities in the schedule, then that's unfair, right? If you've had a conversation. But that's why it comes down to having a conversation, setting expectations extremely clearly, being really specific, and then looking at the reality of their lifestyle. Like, I meet a lot of people who say to me, "I really want my partner to be ambitious, but I want them to be really available." And I'm like, "Those two things just don't go together." Like, the reality is, that person doesn't exist. It's really, really hard for someone to be super ambitious and super available, because that comes with certain give and take.

• 1:08:00Jay Shetty?

  I'm not saying it's not possible to have someone who's slightly ambitious and available. I'm saying that having both in their most extreme form is unrealistic. And so I think it's really looking at the complete person, rather than this one area of them, because they may be really great at a bunch of other stuff, and they need to improve in this area, or they're not great at any of it, and they're not good at this area. And then you've got to really look for what you deserve and not settle for less.

• 1:08:26Lori Gottlieb?

  And I want to say one thing, you used the word narcissist. It is not narcissistic to have needs. So a narcissist is someone who is all about themselves. But that doesn't mean because you have needs and you want to spend time with your partner, even if those needs are maybe more than that partner wants or can deal with, you're not a narcissist. You're human, that's human. We want to connect, we have needs.

• 1:08:49Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, not a narcissist, for sure. It's good we're clarifying that. We'll take one last question.

• 1:08:57Speaker 08

  I really love you, Jay. Your recent...

• 1:09:01Jay Shetty?

  Love you too, Kayla.

• 1:09:02Speaker 08

  I'm learning about you, I really appreciate you. We're talking a lot about couples and relationships, and everything that you've talked about today. How does that apply to couples that are experiencing neurodivergence? Because when you're saying, you know, in the role play earlier, I was thinking, "Yeah, like, an hour would be great." Like, but if you're neurodivergent, like myself, it is really hard to go from one task to another, to another, to another, to another. Like, it's switch, you know, task switching and executive functioning. And so you're talking a lot about, it just feels like...

• 1:09:42Lori Gottlieb?

  Caitlin, in this scenario, you're the neurodivergent person or your partner is?

• 1:09:46Speaker 08

  My question is, how do you, everything that you've, all the advice that you've given for couples, how would that be different or the same for a couple that has someone with with one person that's neurodivergent or both? Because they're, my husband is also neurodivergent. So it's a, it's a learning curve and it's wonderful. But it, everything that you're talking about applies differently. And so, oh, hello. So I'm just understanding, trying to understand what that looks like.

• 1:10:21Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, I think that we are all, neurodivergence is on a spectrum. And we are all, whether we have a diagnosis or we don't have a diagnosis, you know, we're all different from each other. And whether you have a diagnosis that makes it a little more challenging, regardless, we still have to learn who the other person is, what are some of their strengths? What are some of their challenges? What are some of our strengths? What are some of our challenges? And how do we communicate about them? And we've had, you know, I see so many couples where, you know, someone will say, "Well, my partner's on the spectrum" or "My partner deals with this or that." And it's the same, you know, there's like specifics to a specific diagnosis. But at the same time,

• 1:11:06Lori Gottlieb?

  the same kind of human issues around, how do we communicate about our differences? What do we do with these challenges that maybe are a little bit more challenging because of this person's neurodivergence? But I don't, I don't, I think when people kind of try to label and get kind of stuck in, "Because of this, this is why I'm acting this way" or "This is why my partner acts this way," we lose the person behind the diagnosis and we never, ever, ever want to do that. You will lose so much about the person if you see everything through the lens of their neurodivergence.

• 1:11:42Jay Shetty?

  Unfortunately, that's all we have time for today for the questions. I want to give it up for Laurie Gottlieb, everyone.

• 1:11:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Thank you.

• 1:11:50Jay Shetty?

  Please make some noise. So, so grateful.

• 1:11:55Speaker 09

  Thank you, Laurie.

• 1:11:56Lori Gottlieb?

  This is so great.

• 1:11:57Speaker 09

  Joining me, you're amazing.

• 1:11:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Thank you.

• 1:11:59Jay Shetty?

  Give it up for Laurie, everyone.

• 1:12:01Lori Gottlieb?

  Thank you so much. Thank you.

• 1:12:03Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. If you loved that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Laurie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.

• 1:12:24Lori Gottlieb?

  If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.

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  They all keep the blame on me.

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