John & Julie Gottman ON: Dating, Finding The Perfect Partner & Maintaining A Healthy Relationship

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon. In this episode, Jay Shetty is joined by John & Julie Gottman to explore age-old questions about love, relationships, dating, and marriage. Are you just beginning a new relationship or longing for a deeper connection with your romantic partner? John and Julie Gottman, co-designers of the national clinical training program in Gottman Method Couples Therapy, share their knowledge and the science behind building and maintaining healthy, meaningful relationships. Go to https://www.gottman.com for more. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:27Jay Shetty?

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• 2:10Jay Shetty?

  ... requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/OnPurpose. That's drinkag1.com/OnPurpose. First of all, I just want to say a huge thank you to each and every single one of you who've bought my book, left a review, shared it with your friends. It's been incredible to see you all think like a monk. And if you don't have it already, please, please, please go and grab your copy at thinklikeamunkbook.com where you can get Audible, Kindle.

• 2:56Jay Shetty?

  And I read through the audible myself. It's over 20 hours. So if you could deal with my voice a little bit more, then it's right there. But I can't wait for you to read this book. I put so much love and energy into it and I can't wait for you to train your mind for peace and purpose every day. Check it out.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Watch out for somebody who's unreliable and then doesn't apologize, doesn't take responsibility for it, or somebody who's unreliable over and over and over again. If it's a pattern, forget it. You know, everybody can have an emergency every now and then. Okay. But if it's a pattern, uh-uh. You don't deserve that. You deserve much more. You deserve somebody who's really there when they say they're going to be there with their whole being.

• 3:49Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose. Thank you so much for taking out time to be with us to listen, learn and grow on the number one health and wellbeing podcast in the world. And I'm so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love, is out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book, for you to listen to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make Make sure you go to eight rules of love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book.

• 4:34Jay Shetty?

  And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour, Love Rules. Go to j sheddy tour dot com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences and more. I can't wait to see you this year. Now you know that I love being able to sit down with incredible guests that can share fascinating stories, insights and wisdom and practical tips on how we can live better. And I've been listening to all of you. You've got a lot of questions on love, on relationships, on dating, on marriage. And I thought, I know sometimes I can be giving you some advice on that. But a lot of the advice I give on that topic is from these two incredible, incredible thinkers and teachers who just happen to be married and in love as well.

• 5:19Jay Shetty?

  So I want to introduce you to our amazing guests today. First of all, Julie Gottman, PhD. Julie is the co-founder and president of the Gottman Institute and co-founder of the Effective Software, Inc. A highly respected clinical psychologist and author. She's sought internationally by media and organizations as an expert advisor on issues involving marriage, PTSD, sexual harassment, rape, domestic violence, parenting and cancer treatment. Now she's the winner of the Washington State Psychologist of the Year. She's the co-creator of the immensely popular The Art and Science of Love Weekend Workshop for Couples.

• 5:59Jay Shetty?

  And she also co-designed the National Clinical Training Program in Gottman Method Couples Therapy. She's the co-author of seven books, including most recently Eight Dates, which I can't wait to talk about, Essential Conversation for a Lifetime of Love. And of course, her amazing husband, John Gottman, PhD, co-founder of the Gottman Institute and Effective Software, Inc., of course, known worldwide for his work on marital stability and divorce prediction, which again is a fascinating subject that I can't wait to talk about. He's conducted nearly 50 years of research with thousands of couples. And his work on marriage and parenting has earned him numerous awards, including four National Institute of Mental Health Research Scientist Awards

• 6:45Jay Shetty?

  and American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy.

• 6:49Jay Shetty?

  So he's the co-author of forty books, including the New York Times bestseller, The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work. So if you're excited, as I am, let's please welcome to On Purpose, John and Julie Gottman. Thank you for being here.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Thank you, Jay.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Jay. It's a great opportunity.

• 7:09Jay Shetty?

  I was just sharing with you earlier, before we started recording officially, that we briefly met at the Wisdom 2.0 conference. A couple of years ago, I think it was in San Francisco. And I was most excited to hear you both speak because I've quoted your work on my podcast, in my videos. Your research is just so phenomenal. I'm so grateful to have access to it. And the work that you're doing is so meaningful that I'm so glad that my audience and community finally gets to hear from the source. So thank you for this time and opportunity. How are you both?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  We are actually quite wonderful, which during COVID, we feel guilty to say, but we are doing just great. How about yourself, Jay?

• 7:57Jay Shetty?

  I'm very much of the same. I feel like I've been able to really serve with my purpose at this time. And I think that that's really been where I found my certainty, is feeling like I know what I'm meant to be doing and trying to help others, considering I'm healthy and well, how can I serve and support others? So very much of the same. And I want to start off with you, maybe something that you don't get asked often. But John, I know that one of your favorite films is Sleepless in Seattle. And I want to know why. And I also want to know what Julie's favorite film is as well, to get your movie choices, because I'm a big movie junkie too. So I'd love to hear your thoughts.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Well, I love Tom Hanks' monologue in that film where, you know, he's being interviewed and he's talking about his late wife. He's a widower. And he said, he says that as soon as he touched her for the first time, it felt like coming home. But it was like no home he'd ever known before. And it was just magic. And I just love that line about coming home being how you know it's the right person. That's the way I feel about my wife.

• 9:10Jay Shetty?

  I love that. That's beautiful.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  We do.

• 9:13Jay Shetty?

  And Julie, how about yours?

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Golly. Uh, well, I probably have to say Casablanca. Another great romantic movie that's ancient and old and mildly racist, unfortunately. But it is a gorgeous movie of a deep love and yet, you know, love, new love, loyalty. You know, where does one stand? And it is quite deep. Music is terrific. And I've watched it, I don't know, maybe a hundred times along with Space Odyssey 2000.

• 9:57Jay Shetty?

  Oh, yes.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  That's right up there, too.

• 10:00Jay Shetty?

  Good picks. Good picks. Thank you both. And I love how you both picked movies that are highly romantic and love-filled. And the way I want to start this conversation is actually to ask you both about how you both met and how you've been managing to work together for so many years, because I think that that's an incredible achievement in and of itself. As I was reading your bio, and everyone can hear about the amount of projects you've worked on together. So tell me about how you both met and how you started working together.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Well, I kind of made it a project thirty-four years ago to just date as many women as I could. And, you know, I had dated sixty women in one summer. And I was sitting in a coffee house and Julie walked in and I had the courage to go over to her and ask her if she would join me for coffee. And she did. And

• 10:52Speaker 01

  I was number sixty-one.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was number sixty-one. I had a database. So it was just an amazing conversation.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  Most of the women I had met that summer, I couldn't even talk to, you know, and they didn't like my sense of humor. And we hit it off immediately and were laughing together very quickly and had this very intense conversation. And it's never stopped.

• 11:16Jay Shetty?

  So John, you invented Tinder. You invented the first version of dating. Sixty people in a row. I mean, you had a database, you said. That sounds like an online dating app to me in the making. That's incredible. And what made you so focused on like having to see six? Like, what? Did you just decide that you needed to be structured? And you just needed to meet more people in order to meet the right person? Like, what was your thought process at that time? Before?

• 11:46Speaker 02

  I'd been divorced for about seven years and lived in a college town in Champaign, Illinois, and had a lot of trouble meeting women my age. I was in my 40s. And so I had about four months before school began at University of Washington, and I just moved to Seattle. And I thought, you know, why not just take this time and see if I can make some friends? At least have somebody to go to movies with and, you know, and maybe find somebody. So I kind of did it systematically.

• 12:24Jay Shetty?

  I love it. It's great. I think it's, I can't wait to dive more into that. Julie, for you, what was your dating life at the time? And what was it about that meeting with John that turned into this?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Well, it was interesting, Jay. I too had been divorced for almost seven years. And I took some time off between college and grad school, then went to grad school, got PhD in six years, and just actually said a prayer, got in my car in Southern California, had no idea where I was going to land, and drove up, up, up, up. And in San Francisco, my car was towed away. It was broken into. And I bought a Walkman to replace the cassette deck that got stolen. Didn't work, batteries didn't work. I figured San Francisco was not the place for me.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  So, kept going, landed in Seattle and was, just happened to be on my way to a party, kinda dressed up, and walked into this coffee house because I can't do anything socially without coffee, and met John. And John was so, so much the vision of what I'd been looking for. He was incredibly intelligent, obviously. He was hilarious. His eyes were gorgeous. He has these huge eyes. And we didn't talk about psychology at first. We talked about rituals

• 14:01Speaker 01

  I had explored with a Native American tribe, and he talked about a play he had written. So, you know, we found out we were both psychologists and the rest is history.

• 14:19Jay Shetty?

  I'm not a numerologist, but I feel that the number seven is very prominent in your life. You both said seven years of divorce, and then six plus one is seven two, so you're sixty-first.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Growing up.

• 14:31Jay Shetty?

  Are there any other sevens in birth dates, or wedding dates, or anniversaries?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  I'm April 7th.

• 14:38Jay Shetty?

  There we go. There we go. Okay, well, there we go. I'm, you know, not very scientific, but, uh, but it's, it's nice to find these. But no, that's so beautiful to hear that from both of you. And I guess how much emphasis did you put on that first date being a sign that this was going to be a long-term thing versus how much was that first date just a sign that, hey, I want to spend more time with this person?

• 15:03Speaker 01

  I think for me, um...

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Well, I'll share something with you. I had a vision of who I would meet about two years earlier, from the back, and it was like a photograph. And when John got up to pay the bill, I looked at the back of him, and it was the photograph I'd seen two years earlier. So I thought, holy cow, I can't believe it. This seems to be the guy. But then the real cincher was when he walked me to his car, or to my car, and we walked past his car, and mind you, his car had been voted

• 15:50Speaker 01

  the ugliest car in the University of Washington faculty parking lot. I fell in love with that car. It was magnificent. It was such a beautiful, ugly car, and I loved it. And I knew that he was the guy for me.

• 16:05Jay Shetty?

  Love that. That's beautiful. And John, how about you? What was it for you? Was it that first date that kind of set it up when you start thinking long term? Because you'd met 60 women already, or was it further?

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was a clear outlier for me. And it was just so easy to talk to her. And I had a dream that weekend after I met her. And in this dream, she was represented by a tiger who was prowling the forest. And the markings on the tiger were the same as the dress she was wearing when I first met her. And the tiger made me feel really peaceful. And that's one of my nicknames for Julie, is Tiger.

• 16:51Jay Shetty?

  Wow, this is, I mean...

• 16:55Speaker 02

  He's a fierce protector of our family.

• 16:58Jay Shetty?

  I love that.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  She's my tiger.

• 17:01Jay Shetty?

  What I find fascinating about this, and I really appreciate both your openness and honesty, is just how unscientific all these things are.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Don't tell. Don't tell, John.

• 17:15Jay Shetty?

  And we've got dreams and we've got visions and we, you know, I, I love it. It's beautiful. And I, I, I really wanna dive into your studies and your research that you've done. And like I said, that I found fascinating. And I'd love for you to, and that's what I love of both of you is that you can also bring that personal human element to the research, which is so important for so many people to feel like their partner is connected to them in some deeper way as well. So let's dive straight in and I'm happy for both of you to answer the questions I asked. Uh, you know, for me, it's, it's just hearing from both of you is, is very meaningful and joyful for me. So if you wanna add something to a question I ask each of you, then please feel free, like there's no rules and I wanna hear from both of you equally.

• 18:00Jay Shetty?

  So I, I, the first thing I really wanna talk about is the mistakes people make in successful or unsuccessful dating. Because I feel like we're living at a time right now where especially my generation and the generations afterwards have more choice. Like you had a database with sixty people. That's pretty impressive. Uh, I'm sure for that time of people to have access to that much choice. But today it's very normal through a dating app or a website or whatever it may be for people to have access to, you know, unlimited numbers of choice in, in one sense. And so we've got so much choice. Uh, there's also just so much removed. Like I'm sure you were meeting these women, you weren't interacting with them through a digital

• 18:44Jay Shetty?

  uh, tech piece of technology, whereas today we're seeing pictures, we're reading about people before we even meet them. We uh, get to judge them on multiple different angles of pictures and holiday pictures and all of this kind of stuff. Tell us about what the research is showing about the uh unsuccessful dating mistakes or dating mistakes that people are making right now.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, let us both say that all of the dating sites are not particularly successful at creating matches. Their algorithms really don't work. And I think some of the mistakes, some of the common myths that people make, let me just phrase it that way. When people are dating, they think they have to be compatible in as many ways as possible. That's a total myth, actually. It helps maybe to have some similar values or dreams, maybe, a couple that overlap.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  But what we've also found is that people can be very, very different and still have incredible relationships. So that's one myth. Another myth is that you have to be absolutely equal in a level of attractiveness. No, that's not really true either because most of sexual attraction has to do with pheromones, not just visual. Pheromones are little tiny chemicals that have to do with what you smell, almost unconsciously, from someone. What else, Joan?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Well, the book "Dataclism", you know, which is about OkCupid, written by the guy who collected all the data. They had to set up about 50,000 encounters before two people would like each other.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  It's a very inefficient system. And, you know, we need to really say that that's where our science of relationships is at its worst. We really don't know how to match people. We still don't know how to match people. We know what's wrong, and Julie's pointing out this idea that two people who are the same, similar in their interests and so on, are more likely to like each other. And that doesn't seem to be true. Because I think it's, it's not just that you have the same interest, it's how you relate to each other when you have that interest. So we love to kayak, and we've seen a lot of couples, you know, going down the river kayaking, screaming at each other,

• 21:29Speaker 02

  you know, and saying, "You idiot, that's not how you do a J-stroke," you know, and so it's, you know, they have the interests in common, but it's really how they communicate and, and, you know, how playful they are, how much they enjoy each other's company, how open-minded they are to one another. I think it's things like that that make, you know, make the difference. And we love to cite the T-shirt study by Klaus Wedekind, a German researcher, where women smelled T-shirts that were worn by men for two days. And they picked the T-shirt that they thought smelled the best or the least worst. And it turned out that they picked men who were genetically most different from them,

• 22:14Speaker 02

  especially on the genes of the immune system, called the major histocompatibility complex. So it's like women are really attracted to men who are, heterosexual women are attracted to men who really are very different from them, you know. So if you tried to pair them with, you know, with somebody who was just like them, they would find them unattractive. And the next study has been done with, you know, if you paired them with those men, would they like them better? And the answer is yes, they do. So, you know, that's kind of an interesting study, saying that, you know, make choices is pretty complicated, and there's a lot of magic in it.

• 22:58Jay Shetty?

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• 23:41Jay Shetty?

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• 24:25Jay Shetty?

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• 25:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, you already have, it's already intriguing hearing it from that perspective, because I agree that what you were saying, Julie, earlier about how, you know, people are looking for people with similar interests, or they're looking for people with similar backgrounds, or similar upbringings, maybe, and so they've had similar experiences, that doesn't necessarily lead to success. But I guess the challenge is, as you were saying, John, is that when people are going on these dates, they can't see the DNA, they can't see the matchability. What are the signs of what someone can be looking for? Because I think that's sometimes the struggle, that a lot of what we're looking

• 25:52Jay Shetty?

  for has been almost masked by movies and music videos and media. And so, we kind of have this, I remember the first time I had a crush on a girl when I was like, you know, probably like 10 or 11 years old, is because I'd seen a movie where the guy was just head over heels for this girl, and I felt I had to feel that way. And so, I feel so much of our feelings and emotions around love are based on what movies we saw when we were younger, or how our parents related to each other, maybe. And so, what are some of the things that we should look for in the beginning of a dating phase, or beginning of a relationship?

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Great question. Well, some of those things have to do with, does the person you're dating listen to you? Do they ask you big, open-ended questions? Like, how long have you been in Seattle is a closed-ended question. An open-ended question is, what do you love about Seattle? Or what was it that really drew you to Seattle? So, and then listens to the answer and actually remembers the answer, which may be more difficult for couples dating in their 80s, of which there are many. But, the younger, you know, you want to really

• 27:12Speaker 01

  feel like your, your dating partner is interested in finding out who you are, not only superficially, but at a deeper and deeper and deeper level, as you are comfortable self-disclosing. And in addition, is that person reliable? Do they show up when they say they're gonna show up? Uh, do they call you and thank you for the date? Which is one of those kind of um kind things to do afterwards. Um, do they show that they're interested? Or are they playing hard to get and mentioning all their other relationships? And sorry, I'm busy, I can't, I can't, I can't.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  That, that old uh unfortunate female stereotype of playing hard to get uh is not a great idea because it typically isn't sincere. It's not real. Uh, if that person is really interested in the other. So, um, and sometimes males will do that same thing. Not cool. Be straight, be honest. By straight, I mean honest, true, all sincere. Uh, no matter who you're dating. And watch out for uh the person looking away, not really listening to you,

• 28:38Speaker 01

  looking at somebody else in the room, staring at somebody else, not really being attentive, being there. Look for hearing little sharp sarcastic remarks that aren't humorous necessarily. They've got a cutting edge. Watch out for criticism. Um, watch out for somebody who's unreliable and then doesn't apologize, doesn't take responsibility for it. Or somebody who's unreliable over and over and over again. If it's a pattern, forget it. You know, everybody can have an emergency every now and then. Okay. But if it's a pattern, uh-uh. You don't deserve that, you deserve much more.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  You deserve somebody who's really there. When they say they're gonna be there with their whole being.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  So, trustworthiness, kindness, generosity, real interest in you. And I think also an ease of being able to be together. It should feel good to be together. And you should feel a sense of love and affection.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Love?

• 29:47Speaker 02

  And, well, not on the very first date, but eventually, as a characteristic of that person, that that person is a loving person. I know one of the things that really impressed me about Julie was when she made dinner for me the first time, I moved her cat off a chair so I could sit on it. And the cat walked into the kitchen and complained. And I could tell the cat was saying, "Who the heck is this guy? Who does he think he is? He moved me off my favorite chair." And I could tell that this cat was really being treated well by Julie. She is a very kind person. I really grew to love that cat. We called her Sassy. And, you know, and it's just, there's just those moments

• 30:31Speaker 02

  where you can tell that your partner is really a person of substance, character.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Can I bring up one other thing that I really caution some of my clients to look out for? Which is, how do they treat somebody who's serving them? How do they treat a waiter or a server, a waitress? How do they treat a clerk? Uh, if the person, if the helper is delayed for some reason or can't immediately give them what they want, how do they respond to that? Are they understanding? Are they patient? Are they courteous? Are they kind? Or are they, uh, pulling a superior punch, basically, and cutting them down?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Uh, that is a great way, uh, to note the nature of somebody's inner being.

• 31:27Jay Shetty?

  Those are, those are great answers, actually, because I think what you spoke about there is the key, kind of core values of like, looking for trustworthiness, kindness, reliability. Often, these are the things that we don't think about at all, you know, because we're so wrapped up in like... Either just being physically attracted, or we're just wrapped up in what they do for a living, or you know, what they're wearing, like, you know, all that kind of stuff. I, I wondered though, something you said Julie really got me thinking was, you know, why is it that we're so attracted to people who play hard to get? Like, what is it that's so attrac- I was just speaking to someone the other day that I was working with, and, and she was saying the same thing. She was like, I just want a wild card, you know, I just want someone who's just, you know, like, like keeps me

• 32:11Jay Shetty?

  on my toes kind of feeling, like, you know, someone who's got that kind of superiority edge to them, who may be a bit, you know, uh, almost like arrogant or quirky confident, but, but slightly on the side of that playing hard to get. Why is it, first of all, first question to both of you, why is it that we find that person so attractive? And second of all, why do we keep chasing that person even though we know the negatives that come with it? Or, or, or what are the negatives that come with it?

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Great question. Um, I think the answer is complex and it depends on the individual, of course. So, uh, I'll stereotype just a wee bit. Uh, on the surface, that's what we've seen in movies. That's what we've seen on TV. That's what we've got kind of programmed over, you know, thousands and thousands of hours of, uh, that kind of demonstration of hard to get. But on a deeper level, you know, I've never found somebody who was really, really well-loved, uh, in their earlier life, who has sought somebody who seems to be unavailable.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Okay, so what that means is that when, uh, we're not emotionally comforted, uh, by either parent or caretaker, when our feelings aren't listened to, when our needs aren't listened to, when we're expected to be obedient, uh, and just be quiet, and always be chipper and cheerful and da, da, da, da, da. But we feel distant. Really distant from those caretakers who don't seem to know our inner world at all. That's what we grow accustomed to. And even though we don't want to repeat that,

• 34:07Speaker 01

  it is like a magnetic draw. It's like putting on an old coat that's full of holes. And it may be cold for us to wear it, but it's very comfortable because it's very familiar and we know how to handle it. We recognize it. As opposed to somebody who's right there, who's pursuing us, who obviously really wants us, that is like being on an alien planet and it's very scary. And so we back away.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Hmm, interesting. A lot of times, you know, compared to our generation, people today are having sex very quickly. And part of the problem is that when you do that, you both secrete oxytocin after an orgasm. And oxytocin makes you feel artificially safe. And you ignore the red flags. It's also the hormone of bad judgment. And so a lot of times people are ignoring red flags, like the person really isn't interested in you, you know. And you keep, you know, thinking it's going to be okay because that hormone makes you feel safe and secure.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  And you don't see the red flags that person is sending, saying, "I'm not trustworthy. I don't like you very much. You know, I am an arrogant person and I will reject you. I'm a judgmental person and I find fault with everyone." So you ignore those red flags, unfortunately.

• 35:45Jay Shetty?

  I'm so glad you brought that up.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Later.

• 35:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that's one of the reasons why when people have makeup sex, for example, like whenever they argue, it's the same thing happening, right? It's just substituting. And I think we hear this rhetoric of like, you know, you can't substitute a real relationship just with a physical relationship. But knowing the science behind it is fascinating and makes it completely clear that this is not a spiritual or a well-being tip. This is actually a scientific, chemical... Reaction to what's actually happening, that we're convincing ourselves that things are falsely safe. That's fascinating to hear it from that. I've never heard that before. So I love that.

• 36:30Jay Shetty?

  I want to move on. We've talked about dating, which I think is really useful. So everyone who's listening or watching right now, I hope that this is answering a lot of the questions you've been asking me, and hence I'm asking the experts, Dr. John and Julie Gottman. And I want to recommend that book, and we will dive more into the eight dates, which is the essential conversations for a lifetime of love. I definitely want you to recommend reading that book. But I want to dive into more about now, like, long-term relationships and marriage, because I think that as we progress through, I'm trying to take a chronological view to a relationship. Tell us about this. And I know, John, this is more in your field, but Julie, of course, I welcome your answers throughout. It's fascinating that through your research, you were able to predict with over 90% accuracy,

• 37:14Jay Shetty?

  which couples were going to divorce. That is mind blowing to me. Like, that's incredible.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Well, I tell you, I was as surprised by it as you are. So this is based on research that I did for over 40 years with my best friend, Robert Levinson, who's a professor of psychology at Berkeley, UC Berkeley. And Bob and I did some of the first research that collected physiological data from couples as they were talking to each other. And we just had them come in and talk about how their day went after they'd been apart for eight hours, and deal with a conflict issue and a positive topic, and then followed them for many years. And we found that there's so, it was really quite

• 38:03Speaker 02

  easy to predict the future of a relationship. The first study, we really didn't have any predictions. But we found, just serendipitously, that people whose relationships didn't last, had a much higher heart rate when they talked to each other. Their blood was flowing faster. They were sweating more from the palms of their hands. And what was making them More physiological reactive was that they were much more hostile to one another. They were angry, they were contemptuous, they were defensive, they were critical of their partner, they put their partner down. And it was that escalation of negativity that really was related to what was going on in their bodies.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  They were in fight or flight. And so the combination of looking how they talk to each other and what was going on physiologically turned out to be a reliable predictor. And Bob and I did seven studies looking at this, looking at gay and lesbian couples, looking at couples in their 40s and their 60s, following them for as long as 20 years, looking at 130 newlyweds. Julie and I designed an apartment lab together in Seattle. And, you know, we watched these couples as they had their first babies and interacted with their babies and watched the babies develop too. So that was the line of research. And it's been true that the prediction is very strong.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  And marital interaction is very stable. It has 80% stability. When we bring a couple in, six years later, 12 years later, 18 years later, you know, we find 80% stability over time without intervention. And for the last 25 years, Julie and I have been working together on, you know, can we intervene and help couples? Can we prevent relationship disaster? And we've been finding that we absolutely can. So that line of research really tells a wonderful story because we really can discriminate between the masters of relationship and the disasters of relationship. We can prevent the disasters and we can help people who are disasters.

• 40:16Jay Shetty?

  Not all the time, but at least eighty something percent of the time, turn their relationships around.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Let me just add one thing. The moral to the story is that John and I are not relationship gurus. Take us down off the pedestal. The real gurus were the successful couples that we studied. Out of three thousand couples, a great big percentage of those were successful. And so the interventions that we then created later on, which we're now wrapping into an app with our company Effective Software Incorporated, is based on what those successful couples did.

• 41:01Jay Shetty?

  Right.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Which is miraculous. They were the ones who really taught John and me how to have a good marriage, as well as what we could then take and help other couples.

• 41:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely. But it is the studying of... You know, you're asking all the right questions. And I think that's why I value your studies so much is because you're looking at people over a long period of time. You're looking at them through key transitions in their life, key changes in their life. And that's where a lot of the pressure comes from. And, you know, I'm fascinated because you both talk about unhealthy relationships. You say there's a practice of this five to one, positive to negative ratio. Can you elaborate on that and break that down for us? So that people who may be listening to this right now and thinking, you know what, I kind of sound like one of those couples. Like, I kind of sound like one of those couples that were probably going down the disaster route. We're not quite there yet, but we're going down that route.

• 42:00Jay Shetty?

  How can we kind of intervene almost through this?

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Let me also add that...

• 42:09Speaker 02

  I've kept track of my own hypotheses over time. And it turns out I'm wrong 60% of the time. So Julie's right, it's really the data that are informing us. And, you know, we make a lot of mistakes in prediction, mostly we're wrong. And if we didn't do the research, we think we were right 100% of the time. But we're mostly wrong, and it's the data that's correcting us. So you want to answer that five to one?

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Sure. So first of all, let's be really clear that five to one is a ratio applied to when you're discussing a problem, a conflict area, first of all. And the ratio represents how many times you have a positive interaction compared to a negative interaction. And what we've learned is that the successful couples have at least five times as many positive interactions and responses to each other as negative ones. And by negative, we're talking about what we call the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Things like criticism, contempt, defensiveness,

• 43:20Speaker 01

  totally shutting down and becoming totally non-responsive, being more hostile toward the other person. And what this shows is that negativity, it's kind of like negativity weighs a whole lot, a whole lot. So you've got to have five times as many positive things to outweigh that one negative thing in order to keep the relationship feeling good for both of you and for the conflict to feel more gentle and constructive. And in ordinary, just kind of discussing the events of the day, for example, the ratio needs to be about 20 to one.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  So mostly, a nice, rich culture of fondness, appreciation, saying thank you a lot, giving each other compliments, really listening to one another, turning towards each other's little bits for interest or connection are really the secrets of those successful couples.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Well, and eye contact and nodding your head like you're doing as you listen to us.

• 44:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Positive things.

• 44:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I'm very interested.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Great smile, all those nonverbal things really lubricate the wheels of interact.

• 44:45Jay Shetty?

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• 45:30Jay Shetty?

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• 46:11Jay Shetty?

  ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

• 46:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, I, I, I think it's, everything you're saying is, it's so wonderful to hear it from the data point of view. And I do really love the fact that you keep bringing it back to the data and the research because that just gives me more confidence that all these habits and principles that we want people to develop, like emotional intelligence and the ability to listen and the ability to be vulnerable enough to notice beauty in your partner or, you know, congratulate them or celebrate them. I think these are such beautiful habits that are often seen as such soft skills. But actually, from the data, they're very strong and powerful.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yes, ma'am.

• 47:37Jay Shetty?

  And, and, and what you're both saying, I, I'm intrigued actually, though, from what you both said. When was there a hypothesis you had or a belief that you think the world strongly has about relationships that actually the data completely disproves? What was like the most shocking or surprising one where you were like?

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, one, one of the ones that was really shocking was that

• 47:59Speaker 02

  when couples are talking about an area of conflict and they're neutral, they're not showing any emotion. That's good.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  So that if you can stay calm and you can really present your point of view unemotionally, it turns out to be very constructive. So, most people were saying, you want to see fire and passion, you know? Otherwise, it's a dead relationship. Not true at all. If you would be, if you could be kind and gentle and even neutral, that was a good thing. So it was the, the reflection of calm as they talk to each other that turned out to be so important. And that was really surprising.

• 48:46Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  But.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  I want to be sure that our listeners don't think that expressing anger is a bad thing.

• 48:58Jay Shetty?

  Right.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  That is not true. So being passionate, being intense, expressing anger and so on, is fine depending on how you voice it. So if you're expressing anger with an I statement that describes how you feel, as opposed to pointing a finger at your partner and describing them as flawed or to blame, that's very different, very different. So there may be a lot of passion in saying, "I'm furious about this. God bless it. You know, I can't take this anymore." Well, you're describing yourself and that's okay. That's a fine way to express

• 49:42Speaker 01

  anger and anger is a very normal human emotion. So we're not trying to say that you should have a frontal lobotomy and become, you know, Dr. Spock. We're saying, do your best to be calm, to be gentle, but also to be real with what you're feeling, as long as you describe yourself and not go into criticism of your partner.

• 50:07Jay Shetty?

  I think that's a great distinction. I'm really, really happy you made that point because I think you're spot on that, you know, for a lot of people, they won't be able to achieve that neutrality. But if you are going to be anger, angry and passionate, then it needs to be reflective of how you feel as opposed to the other person's weaknesses or flaws or mistakes or wrongdoings. And I think that's, that's such a, that's such a useful thing to remember in an argument. Such a useful thing to remember in an argument because I think from a defensive point of view, it's so easy to start blaming the other person. And I love the way Julie, you described the five to one because I think the reason why I like those small insights is because I feel for so many people, sometimes it's

• 50:51Jay Shetty?

  the opposite where someone does one thing right and five things wrong, but because they do one thing right, you kind of overshadow all the five things that go wrong. And so often that ratio is flipped the other way. And because that becomes your norm, you just become so grateful for that one thing that goes right. You keep almost accepting a challenging relationship and situation. So I, I really love the way you both clarified those. And you also said that sixty-nine percent of conflicts in marriages are never solved. That, when, when I read that, I was like, oh, I wanna know why that is, but also what can couples do to really understand what it is that needs solving?

• 51:36Jay Shetty?

  Because I, it's so true, but yeah, so let's go into why that is. Because couples argue, they fight, they discuss stuff. Why is it never solved? And second of all, how can we start solving this?

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Okay, great. Great question. So this again came out of the data where when couples were brought in, you know, every two or three years and asked to discuss a problem, they would be discussing exactly the same problem for over twenty years. And the only thing that would change was their fashion and their hairstyle. That was it. You know, now everybody's in sweatpants when they have these conversations, right? So, you know, what we saw is that there were this sixty-nine percent of problems that never got solved. And what we then understood is that, first of all, they're based on lifestyle preferences,

• 52:28Speaker 01

  so differences in lifestyle and differences in personality as well. And they often have beneath the surface, they have some underlying dream, some underlying yearning that may be related to their earlier history, may be related to either positive history or negative history, traumatic history sometimes. But often, these perpetual problems, the, the positions have these deep-seated roots in them that also sometimes are existential. What gives that person a sense of meaning and purpose in life?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  So we discovered that, no, we're not gonna solve these problems, but what couples can do is develop their understanding for the other person's position at a much deeper level. And out of that understanding, develop compassion enough that they can then form little temporary compromises around the edges of the issue. So let me give you an example.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  So John and I are very, very, very different. I'm super adventurous. John is an avid indoorsman, as he likes to say. He hates going outside because he'll get dirty and, you know, stuff like that. And I go climb mountains and

• 54:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Go to Mount Everest Base Camp. Go to Mount Everest, you know, stuff like that when I'm 50. So when I, for example, when I told John that I wanted to take 15 women or 12 women and go to Mount Everest Base Camp and celebrate turning 50 that way, he first said, are you absolutely out of your mind? And I said, yes, and I still want to go. And so we had a big discussion about that. And the discussion included John asking me questions. And those questions are part of one of our big interventions. Questions like, are there any ethics, values, or guidelines

• 54:45Speaker 01

  that are part of your position on this? What's the childhood history or background that may be related to this? Why is it so important to you? What's your ideal dream here about this? Is there an underlying purpose or life meaning for you? So John asked those questions. And in turn, I asked him the same questions regarding his not wanting me to go. And by the end, of course, I won and I got to go. And he didn't read into thin air about the 1996 Mount Everest debacle until after I got back.

• 55:28Jay Shetty?

  I love that. That's a great example. And I'm so glad you took my differences. And you know, me and my wife, I would consider that we're also very different. My wife's a very rooted, grounded individual, loves also being around family and home and safe, secure environments. And I'm kind of high risk and like trying new things and, you know, experimenting a lot and, and having new experiences. And I'm very kind of like flexible and adaptable constantly. I don't need a lot of sameness to feel happy. And she kind of prefers that. And, and we've been through so many changes in our relationship from moving country to moving homes to

• 56:08Jay Shetty?

  not being around family and, you know, all of these changes that we've been through over the last four years that we've been married. And it's been incredible to have, and, and I think the problem is the people from the outside often think we're very similar. And, and, and hearing about how you overcome a difference and respect each other's differences and gain a respect by having a conversation is, is so important because I think people just think, oh, well, if you don't want to come with me, then why, how can I be with you? Uh, you know, and you didn't want to go with John in the first place. I mean, you wanted to go with someone else because you know what he's like. And I think, and I think that's, that's great. Like just having that awareness is such a breakthrough because I feel like, I feel like so many partners expect their partner to do everything with them.

• 56:53Jay Shetty?

  And they want to share their favorite experiences. So whether it's if I have friends who are hugely into a sport and they really want their partner to come with them, or they have a hobby, like a few of my friends would always want their partners to be in the audience if they were performing or doing something. But often it's just not that, it's not that person not interested in you. It's they're not interested in that thing. What is, you know, you hear this a lot in relationships and there's no one better to ask than you because you can talk about the day to night. What is the role of compromise? And does that even exist? Like what is compromise? What is the right way of compromising? And how is it effective?

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  So we figured that one out too, from the couples and from the data. So we call it the two oval method, otherwise known as the bagel method. So here's what it looks like. Basically, when you're trying to reach a compromise, you take a piece of paper, I'll give you just the exercise, how to do it. You take a piece of paper, you draw a big bagel or donut on your piece of paper. And in the inner circle, you think about your position on this issue and you write down what aspect of my position on this issue can I not compromise on?

• 58:17Speaker 01

  That is so true to my heart, my soul, who I am, my identity, that if I gave it up, I would, you know, be a bag of bones. I can't do it. Then, in the, you write down what those components are that are part of your position. Then in the outer circle, you write down, what are you more flexible about? And people are typically more flexible about kind of the newspaper reporter questions. When, where, how, what? How much will it cost? How long will things last? When will it begin? You know, those more nitty gritty detailed questions that people tend to be more flexible about.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Then you come together, you share what you wrote down in your circles, and then talk about where is there overlap? Especially in the flexible areas. Where is there overlap? So here's a compromise. Let me give you a-

• 59:21Speaker 02

  And explain the, why those core needs are so central to you. So your partner can understand those and respect them.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right, great. So, an example of this was a couple who were getting ready to retire. They both wanted to sell their house, but one wanted to sail around the world. It was a heterosexual couple, so guess which one wanted to sail around the world? In this case, the stereotype fits and it was the guy. Um, the woman uh had a farm that had been in her family for over a hundred years. And she wanted to take her place, living on the farm with her husband, um, as a long line of ancestors had done before her. Where was the farm located? Iowa. So, how are you gonna, you know, sail around the world from Iowa? This is not an easy thing.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  So, when they divvied up their positions on the issue, they realized that there was a lot of flexibility about whose dream went first, how long would it last, how much would they spend, where would they go, et cetera. And so they came up by overlapping and discussing those flexible areas, as well as discussing how to honor each other's dreams, which is very important here, that center circle for each person. They figured out that they would sail first for one year and get as far as they could.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Then they put the boat up on dry dock, go to the farm, live in Iowa for one year, and see how that felt. And at the end of two years, they would have both honored, had their dreams honored and supported by the other person, and then they would figure out what to do next. That's how compromise works.

• 1:01:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's beautiful to hear that. I love that. I love that. I remember when I first got the opportunity to move to New York for my work, and this came as a surprise a month after we got married and bought a house five minutes away from my uh mother and father-in-law. Because my wife told me our whole relationship, that she would never, ever want to move further than five minutes away from her parents. And a month later, after we got married, I get this, this is four years ago, I get this uh huge career break. It literally changes my life. Uh, and, and is what I would call that core prefer, uh, core priority of like something I would never negotiate on because it's so important to me. And, you know, I, I can say no to it.

• 1:02:01Jay Shetty?

  And uh, my wife didn't talk to me for two days. Uh, we've talked about this uh publicly before. She didn't talk to me for two days. And uh, because she was processing it and figuring out what it meant. But it's been so interesting because I remember saying to her, I said, "We will fly you back every week, for every weekend of every month, if that's what it takes, "for you to feel that you can be in both places, or I can go, you can stay here, and we can see how that works, "and then we can figure out what works for both of us." And thankfully, we've both been living in the States for the last four years, "and my wife thinks it's one of the best decisions she ever made. "But in the beginning, it was really, really tough to figure out what was the right thing to do,

• 1:02:40Jay Shetty?

  "and I'm grateful for her approach and my approach. We actually did that in a very informal way, "but those stages sound very close to how we processed it."

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  That's why it works.

• 1:02:52Jay Shetty?

  Very reassuring, very reassuring to hear that. What a great way of defining compromise, "because I think people throw around the word compromise, "and they just think it's them begrudgingly doing what the other person wants."

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:05Jay Shetty?

  That's not a good definition.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Nope. No, that's surrender. That's not compromise.

• 1:03:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay, so I want to move further on in the chronology of a relationship, "and I want to ask an extreme question, because I think so many people unfortunately deal with this today. "It's like, what do you do when you find out that your partner's cheated on you? "You know, I hear about this far too often, both in marriage or in just dating, "and I feel so many people unfortunately go through so much pain in that scenario, "because they might have children, they might have family involved, you know, whatever it is, it's never easy. "And so what does the day-to-day reset say around when you find out your partner's had an affair?

• 1:03:51Jay Shetty?

  "What's been the best way of operating that? Like, what are the next moves from that situation at work?"

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, first of all, we have done some research on that, "and there have been other people who have written about it. "One in particular is named Shirley Glass, who was Ira Glass's mother, "a fantastic psychologist, and she treated affair couples throughout her career, "and wrote a book called Not Just Friends, which was a fabulous, fabulous book. "And what she recognized, and we also saw this in our work, "is that the person who's been betrayed suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder."

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Which means they can't control the thoughts of their partner with somebody else that are coming into their mind all the time. They're alternating between emotional numbness and then exploding. Uh, they are, um, just beside themselves with the pain of it and their whole world has vanished. So, um, what has to happen that John and I are now doing a study on, but we've really seen thus far clinically, anecdotally, really seems to work? Is a three-

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  For couples who wanna-

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Who wanna-

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  Maintain their relationship after the cheating.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  Wanna stay together.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Okay. Um, it's a three-phase, uh, process that takes a therapist. You need a very good therapist who is not in the pulpit judging. Um, because both people are human. People make mistakes and both people need to feel supported and compassion from their therapist. So, first, we call it the atonement stage, where the person who was betrayed, uh, begins by asking, uh, the person who had the affair, any questions they want to about the affair, aside from asking the specifics about what kind of sex did you have?

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Because if they ask that last question, they're bound to have more pictures come into their mind that will traumatize them even further and that's not gonna be helpful. But asking, "How much did you spend? What did you buy, him or her? Uh, where did you go overnight?", you know, and so on. So, asking a lot of questions and that person also needs to be supported to express their feelings about the affair. They have to express those feelings. And, again, by saying, "I feel so betrayed. I feel destroyed. My whole world has blown up."

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  And not hear defensiveness in response, not talk about the marriage yet, not yet. But instead, respond with empathy, with sorrow, with remorse, and ask maybe over and over and over again, not necessarily for forgiveness, but saying, "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry." And the other partner who's been betrayed hears that, and that that may take a while. Then, and again, PTSD has to be underscored

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  as part of what may be causing the explosions at home. When images come in, or a nightmare happens, that person may explode the next day. So, that's PTSD going on. Then finally, after atonement calms down, you move into what we call atonement. And atonement is finally the stage where you're talking about the marriage itself and what went wrong. And what we've seen is that typically, most affairs are about feeling lonely. They're about feeling empty. They're about not feeling listened to. They often occur in marriages where the conflicts have been so awful

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  that people have stopped expressing what they need, and then they get lonely. And so after a while, that loneliness takes hold of one, and that other person starts to talk to somebody else of whatever their sexual preference might be. And eventually, that friendship moves into something else. What Shirley Glass says that I love is that the walls and windows get reversed. In a healthy marriage, there needs to be a window open between the two partners with a wall around the couple

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  that protects from outside influences of other people, other partners. Those get reversed, where the person doing the affair is opening a window to the affair partner and closing off.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  The marital partner. So that's why affairs happen. So you re-look at the marriage. You process past regrettable incidents, bad fights they had that never got resolved. They talk about their conflicts and relearn how to talk gently and compassionately about conflicts so they're not so afraid to have them. They develop new rituals of connection. They work on their friendship, on turning towards each other's needs, expressing their needs. And then, you know, things can get better over time. And finally, in the last phase, which is called attach or attachment,

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  they then hopefully recommit to each other and to the marriage. That may be the stage, for some couples, not for all, where they re-initiate having sexuality again in their lives together.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  And things are deepened during that phase in terms of loyalty and commitment. That's how you do it. Takes a while.

• 1:10:21Jay Shetty?

  Oh, for sure. No, and I love the stages because I think there was just so much patience in what you were saying. And if you are trying to make it work, or you, even if you're trying to move on, it's going to be a patient process. It's always nice to be able to be aware of which stage am I at? Or which step am I moving into? I want to be respectful of both of your time. And I want to say, you know, today has been absolutely mind blowing. This is incredible. I feel like, I feel like we need to do multiple episodes a year where we dive deeply into all different aspects and facets of a relationship because I've learned so much today. And I'm so excited for my community and audience to hear this one because I feel like it's just going to help them and guide them so much.

• 1:11:05Jay Shetty?

  And I want to make sure that we direct them in the way of your books and work that you feel is most useful to them. So where should they go? If people want to learn more about all this incredible research and data and apply it to their lives, where should they start? And where should they go? Where do you recommend?

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  In the area of affairs, the book to get is What Makes Love Last?

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  By him.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, by John Gottman.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  And And part of what Julie hasn't talked about is that in order to really develop this therapy to help couples who want to stay together after an affair, we also have to study couples who maintain loyalty and avoid betrayal. So you can't understand one side of a process without understanding the other side. And that's how we really built this therapy.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Okay. So, one place you can go is www.gottman.com. Eight Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love is wonderful to explore not only this new relationship, is it terrific? But maybe one you've been together a long time and is a little stale, you can deepen that relationship as well. And we're also, we're creating, especially because of COVID, we're creating an app that puts all of our interventions and exercises and assessments

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  of relationships too, to help couples that is much cheaper than workshops and therapy. We want to democratize people's access to relationship health. And that's through affective software with an A, Affective Software, Inc. So, those are all places to go to learn more.

• 1:13:04Jay Shetty?

  I love that. I'm so glad you're doing that. I think that's going to be so useful to people. And I can imagine, I can't wait to share it with my audience. I think my my community would absolutely love tools like that.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, Jay. That would be very helpful.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  It's a digital world, despite me being TI, which is called technologically impaired.

• 1:13:24Jay Shetty?

  Incredible.

• 1:13:27Jay Shetty?

  We end every On Purpose episode with what's called a Fast Five, which means every single one of these questions has to be answered with one word or a maximum of one sentence. So these are like, super Fast Five, you can both answer them, one after the other. So the first question is, what was the biggest lesson you learned in the last 12 months? That's a one sentence kind of.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  That I love staying home.

• 1:13:55Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  How about you?

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  How much I love you.

• 1:14:01Jay Shetty?

  Ah, I love that. I can, I can tell, John, I'm, I'm definitely more like you in the relationship. I think I tell my wife, I love her like a million times a day. So.

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:14:10Jay Shetty?

  I, I could, I could see in this interview. Okay. Second question. What was the last kindest thing your partner did for you?

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. Um, let's see. Two things. Um, in order for me to do clinical work for eight hours today. Um, he took our new puppy this morning, fairly early to Doggy Day Camp, which is an hour round trip. And not only that, but he went and picked him up.

• 1:14:41Jay Shetty?

  I love that.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  What a big sweetie.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, she made a wonderful dinner last night.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  You know, and we sat and watched TV together, eating our dinner and playing with our puppy. So.

• 1:14:57Jay Shetty?

  I love it. Question number three. What's the best place to meet someone today?

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Phew. God, that's a good question. Ah, holy cow.

• 1:15:11Jay Shetty?

  What's the reset? So I'm fascinated by that because I feel like that's such a big question. I, I would love for you to reset that because the number one question people tell me is like, where do I meet that person? Where do I find them? Like, you know, I.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  How about a political protest?

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  With a mask on. Just where, you know, if you like wearing makeup, wear a lot of makeup.

• 1:15:34Jay Shetty?

  All right, John, do you have an answer for that one? If you could make a law that everyone in a relationship had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Never, uh, give your partner unwanted touch. I.e. violence or sexual abuse.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  My answer would be, um, adopt the model that when your partner is in pain or stressed and wants to talk about his or her feelings, the world stops and you listen.

• 1:16:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Good one.

• 1:16:12Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. And the final question of your fast five. Uh, if there's one thing that couples should avoid in relationships, what would that be?

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Content. Content. Meaning not only putting down your partner with a criticism, but doing it from a place of superiority.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  It not only fries the relationship, it hurts the immune system of the listener.

• 1:16:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:16:48Speaker 02

  And the speaker.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  And the speaker. Less so, but yeah. How about you? One thing to avoid.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Taking your partner for granted.

• 1:17:01Jay Shetty?

  Great answer.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  Good one.

• 1:17:02Jay Shetty?

  Fantastic. John and Julie, you are amazing. This was so much fun. And everything you've shared, like I said, I think people are going to benefit so much. I can't wait to share it. I can't wait for your app, Effective Software, as you said, Inc. I can't wait for it. And thank you so much to both of you for taking this time and being with me. And really, really looking forward to meeting again in person and hope we can do another interview in person at some point as well.

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  That'd be great, Jay.

• 1:17:27Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this and I appreciate you both so much.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  And your questions were deeply intelligent and beautiful. Thank you.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

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