Gretchen Rubin ON: How Understanding Your Habits Allows You to Thrive in Work, Love and Life

You love On Purpose because it inspires your life. Have you tried Jay’s Genius workshops and meditations to access even deeper well-being? Learn more at https://shetty.cc/OnPurposeGenius Gretchen is an “Upholder”. She views inner and outer expectations as helpful and ease to maintain. An “Upholder” is one of the four “Rubin Tendencies” outlined in Gretchen Rubin’s book The Four Tendencies. On this episode of On Purpose with Jay Shetty, Jay talks with author and speaker Gretchen Rubin about how understanding your own personality tendency can help you become more successful at work, love and life. Grethcen is the vastly popular author of The Happiness Project, Better Than Before, and The Four Tendencies. Take her Four Tendencies Quiz and let Jay and Gretchen know on Instagram which one you relate to most! PS. Jay is a rebel. Four Tendencies Quiz!: https://quiz.gretchenrubin.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:45Jay Shetty?

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• 1:28Jay Shetty?

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• 2:12Jay Shetty?

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• 2:22Jay Shetty?

  Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I am so excited for you to be listening to the show right now. Thank you so much for tuning back in. It means the world to me that you come back every single week to listen, learn and grow. And I love inviting guests onto the show that I really believe are going to expand our minds, give us new insights, and especially people who help us structure the craziness that's going on. Now, today's guest is going to do just that. I've been a long-term fan and follower of her work. Today's guest is Gretchen Rubin, the author of several books, including the New York Times bestsellers Outer Order, Inner Calm, Better Than Before, The Happiness Project, Happier at Home, and The Four Tendencies, which we'll be diving into today.

• 3:07Jay Shetty?

  She has an enormous readership in print and online, and her books have sold more than three and a half million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages. She makes frequent TV appearances and is an incredible speaker that I've been following for a long time. She's also a CBS News contributor. Every Monday on CBS This Morning, the final Before We Go segment features her solutions and tips for living a happier, healthier, more productive life. On her weekly podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, which I really recommend you check out, she discusses good habits and happiness with her sister Elizabeth Craft. Gretchen started her career in law and now has gone on to become an incredible writer.

• 3:48Jay Shetty?

  Today, I'm excited to talk to her about learning about personality types, tendencies, and see how we can immediately and rapidly improve our life, our communication, and our relationships. Gretchen Rubin, everyone. Gretchen, thank you for doing this.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm so happy to be talking to you. I'm a huge fan of your work, and we're interested in so many of the same things. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Thank you for having me.

• 4:09Jay Shetty?

  I know, I know. And I remember when this book came out, I was so excited to read it because I'm so fascinated by personality types, tendencies, how we think, styles, and how we're different. And the fact that I get to sit here with you today and dissect it is a real treat and joy for me. But I wanted to start more on the personal side. I actually wanted to start off by asking you about the last adventure you went on with your two daughters, considering it's been such a...

• 4:37Jay Shetty?

  Insular time and obviously restrictive time. What's something you've done with your daughters recently?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness. Well, I think our adventures have been very homebound adventures, but I decided I wanted to learn how to play poker. I wanted to do something with a beginning, middle and an end. And so we were like, we're gonna learn to play poker. My husband knew how to play, but my two daughters and I did not know how to play. So I rallied them and that was kind of, that was an adventure. And I realized like I'd been misunderstanding the plots of so many movies and books because I had a complete misconception of how poker worked. And so that's been kind of an adventure that we did under our own roof.

• 5:14Jay Shetty?

  Oh, I love that. Tell me what your perception of poker was and how it differed from reality.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Well, I thought it was like a long, complex game where there was a lot of like, you know, trading cards back and forth. One of my daughters said, she said, "The thing that I don't like about poker is it doesn't feel like a game. It feels like the prelude to a different game." And I was like, I don't usually like games. I think that's what I like about it. It's kind of, it just sort of unrolls and you deal with what you have and then you move on. So I thought it was very, I think I thought it was more like bridge. Whatever my conception of bridge is, I also don't know how to play bridge. But I didn't realize like, like sort of what, it's sort of an instant gratification game, more than some games.

• 6:02Jay Shetty?

  I love this line that you say. It really, really has stuck me every time you've said it. You said that, "I'd rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer." And I think that's such a powerful message. And that one line has so much depth to it. Tell us about that journey of becoming a lawyer to then realize that it wasn't your path. Because I think a lot of our listeners are either at that point on their path or getting to that point on their path. Some of them have already made the switch over. And hearing about your journey, I think will help a lot of people because this isn't what you set out to do in the beginning.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I went to law school for the same reason a lot of people go to law school because I was like, it's a great education and I'm good at research and writing. It'll keep my options open and I can always change my mind later. My father's a really happy lawyer. He didn't put any pressure on me, but he was definitely an example of someone who loved being a lawyer. So I went for all the wrong reasons, which I call drift. So drift is the decision you make by not deciding or by doing the kind of path of least resistance. You know, you get married because your friends are getting married. You become a doctor because your parents are doctors and you're good at science, or you take a job because somebody offers you that job. So I just kind of drifted into law. And the fact is, I had a great experience in law. I was editor in chief of The Law Review at Yale where I was. I was a clerk for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  But while I was clerking for her, I got an idea for a book. And at the time, I didn't even know it was a book. I just was obsessed with an idea. And this happens to me all the time in my life. I'll get really interested in something and do a lot of research and writing. But this was, I was just doing so much research and so much writing. And finally, I thought, well, this is the way somebody would prepare to write a book. And then I thought, well, maybe I could write a book about this. And then I went to the bookstore and bought a book that was called something like How to Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal. And I just followed the directions. But as you say, it was like, it felt very risky. But I did say to myself, I would rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer. And I have to give it a shot. I have to allow myself to either succeed or fail. Because

• 8:08Speaker 01

  if I don't try, I think I'm going to be haunted by this. And so I did.

• 8:14Jay Shetty?

  I love that. I love how simple it is and how practical it is. Because I know that so many people, if you're listening or watching right now, that's often what it takes. Like you get a feeling and then you go and do the research and then you follow the steps. And of course, there's so much more hard work and sacrifice and everything, all the other ingredients that are really important. But the methodology is usually aligned. It's very similar to wanting to break into a particular industry or whatever it may be. The methodology can be similar, but it's the hard work. Tell us a bit about that side, Gretchen, around the sort of pain or sacrifice or some of the pressure that you felt. Because you were successful, you were doing well for yourself.

• 8:59Jay Shetty?

  You've obviously worked and there's so much sunk cost bias

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:02Jay Shetty?

  of the drift of like you've worked so hard to get into this incredible institution and you get so much respect for it and people

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:10Jay Shetty?

  think you're great at it and then all of a sudden you're starting out with like basically zero. It's almost like, you know, starting from the bottom again in an industry which you have no reputation in, you have no qualification in. Tell us about what that feels like and what was it that helped you kind of build your way up from there?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Well, you're exactly right. Like I didn't have a clip. I hadn't worked on the college newspaper or my, you know, I hadn't published a short story. Whereas in law, I had all these, you know, feathers in my cap. But if anything, I think, you know, lawyer turned writer sounds so boring. I was like, I even hated to tell people that I was a lawyer because I thought that would make them, you know, run screaming for my proposal. But, you know, I had something that at the time I didn't even think about. But then looking back and talking to other people who are similarly situated, I realized how fortunate I was, which was how the people around me were so tolerant of me taking a risk and so encouraging. And I think sometimes the people around us, out of the deepest love and the desire to protect us, they don't want to see us disappointed. They don't want to see us fail.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  They don't want to see our feelings get hurt. They don't want to see us frustrated. They want us to be safe, but there is no path of safety. I mean, if anything, if the last 10 years have shown us anything, 15 years, you know, there is no safe profession. And I was really lucky because my parents were like, great. You want to start all over from scratch after having just completed this long thing? Which, by the way, we paid for. Fine, great, excellent, go for it. My husband was also switching from law to finance. And so he was also going through a big switch. So we were doing that together. I remember there was a day when I had decided that I was going to like try to get an agent and he was going to try to get a job in finance and we had moved to New York City.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  And the note came from the New York Bar Association. It was time for us to pay our bar fees. And these are not inconsequential fees. Like, you have to pay a lot to be a member of the bar. And I said to my husband, are we gonna pay our bar fees? And he said, are you kidding? No way. And I was like, okay, we are doing this. We are committed now. Now, now I find out, you can always get readmitted to the bar if you just like do a few things. But at the time, it felt like this massive step. So I was very fortunate that the people around me were really encouraging. And my father said something to me that others, I repeated it because it was so meaningful to me. And people have said, oh, that sounds discouraging. But actually, it was very encouraging. So I said to my father, okay, I have this idea for a book. I'm gonna write it. And he said, well, look, darling, you might not hit it out of the park the first time, but you'll get there.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  And people said, but that's, that's telling him he didn't think you could succeed. I was like, no, it was him telling me, if you don't fail the first time, that doesn't mean you're a failure. You don't have to succeed right away in order for this to have been the right decision. And that was very comforting to me because I was like, this could take time. You know, and here, my father is reminding me, sometimes things take time. But that doesn't mean that they're the wrong thing to do.

• 12:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's, it's incredible, isn't it? You've, you've just kind of hit a, hit a point for me while I'm listening to you that it's, it's amazing how, how, what, how old were you when you became a qualified lawyer? Like 25, is it? Is it like?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Uh, when I took the bar, I was probably like 26, 27.

• 12:17Jay Shetty?

  Right, okay, so you took the bar at 26, 27. And if you think about it, you've been in education or in the educational system since like three or four years old. Which means to become a lawyer, and which is an incredible profession, it took 23 to 24 years. And, and I think we almost forget that, that it took X amount. So I, I went to Cass Business School where I studied management science with a focus on behavior science. And I graduated at 21, 22. I was the oldest in my year. And it's like, people forget that that means I've spent 18 years to get this qualification, which means getting to something I didn't want took 18 to 24 years.

• 13:00Jay Shetty?

  But it's funny that we expect all of a sudden that when we do something we're passionate about, that it happens to happen on the first time. And we forget that we spent eighteen to twenty-four years trying to get good at something we didn't even love, yet we expect ourselves to be perfect at something the day we try it, and not realizing that it may take sometimes another ten, twenty, even thirty years in some cases.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think sometimes that's the way that people deal with the fear of it, is by saying, well, if it's not an immediate success, then I know that I should give up. Because to struggle, to flail around, to make mistakes, to learn things the hard way, is tough. And it can be no fun. And so sometimes it feels good to be like, well, I tried it, and so now I, you know, I've learned my lesson, instead of sort of staying in it, and kind of allowing yourself to feel that frustration. You know, it's funny, because sometimes when people talk about a happy life, they talk about it as if a happy life would be a life. When you feel ten on the one to ten scale, twenty-four seven, and

• 14:09Speaker 01

  that's not realistic, and it's not even a good life. There's many reasons why we feel sad, or we feel angry, or we feel resentful, or we feel outraged, or we feel insecure, or we feel scared. And these are all really important emotions. We can learn a lot from them, and they can direct our behavior in really, really positive ways. But it's not always so fun to feel those emotions. You know, envy is a really powerful, helpful emotion, but it is no fun to feel it. But we can learn a lot from these negative emotions.

• 14:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's funny how we've created a viewpoint in our minds that we're almost broken if we have those emotions.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and they're extraordinarily important and useful.

• 14:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and we feel like we have to fix ourselves instead of feel that emotion. And fixing can kind of lead to so much more pain, because every time you fix something, there's another thing, and then there's another thing, and it can be a never-ending cycle. Tell us about how you discovered the four tendencies that first was, where you were like... Oh, this is, you know, this is a really big idea that's gonna help people.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Well, I was sitting right where I'm sitting right now. I remember it. I mean, it hit me like a lightning bolt. Because it was something I had been struggling about with for months, months and months, maybe years. And, uh, and it was, there were all these pa- I had been writing a book called Better Than Before that was all about habit change, how we make or break our habits. And I'd been noticing patterns in what people said and how they behaved and certain challenges that they faced that I couldn't make sense of. But somehow I intuited that they were somehow connected, but I couldn't understand the pattern. It was just my, my brain was melting trying to figure this out. And one of the most significant examples was when a friend said to me, you know, I would be happy, I know I would be happier if I exercised. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running on my own now?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  And I thought, I've heard so many people say something like that. What's going on? And you can think of a hundred different reasons, maybe that could explain that. But what's really going on? And then there were certain of a, I would always say to people, how do you feel about New Year's resolutions? Because that's sort of a good habits related question to get people talking. And certain people would give me exactly the same answer. They say, I would keep a habit or start a resolution whenever it made sense to me. I would not wait for January 1st because January 1st is an arbitrary date. And they always said arbitrary. And I was like, that's interesting because the arbitrariness never really bothered me. Then I was at a party and I was talking to a woman and who I now know what tendency she is. But I was telling her, I was writing a book about habits. She literally took a step back from me

• 16:40Speaker 01

  because she was so repelled by the idea of writing about, she was like, why would you write about such a terrible subject? I was like, I love the idea of habits. To me, they're energizing and freeing. I love the subject of habits. And so one day I was sitting there and I was just thinking, and these were just running through my mind. And I was trying to understand how were they connected? And I realized that the idea was expectations. How do people respond to expectations? And when I got to the word expectations, I quickly realized that there are two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations like

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Meeting a deadline or meeting a request from a friend. And then there are inner expectations, like my own desire to become a writer and write a book proposal, my own desire to keep an year's resolution. And I realized that when I looked at how people responded to outer and inner expectations, that's what made someone an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel. Now, of course, I didn't have those terms right away. It took me a long time to figure out the terms. But I saw the pattern, you know, and it was like a pattern of nature where everything fit and every example I could think of fit in some way. So it felt like, you know, the periodic table of the elements where you're like, this just works. Like it's got that solidity that you get in nature. And I was like, and it was just the most exciting moment of my intellectual life, I have to say.

• 17:53Jay Shetty?

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• 18:36Jay Shetty?

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• 19:15Jay Shetty?

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• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:16Jay Shetty?

  Understand ourselves. I think there's such a need for it. And as much as we understand that everyone is genuinely very unique and diverse and different, there are these kind of foundational principles and aspects that kind of keep us in certain groups with others. Tell us a bit about where did these tendencies come from? Like, are they manufactured through school and family? Or are they things that we develop? Where does it, where do they actually come from?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Well, I really do believe the four tendencies are hardwired. Like, I'm a big believer in the genetic roots of personality generally. And I think that you're an upholder, a questioner, obliger rebel, you bring that into the world with you. Now, obviously, your culture is going to affect it. Like, if you're a questioner who's always questioning, and you're in North Korea, you maybe learn to keep your mouth shut. But if you're in Silicon Valley, that might be one of your greatest assets, greatest strengths. And I think, you know, with time and experience, we all learn how to manage our tendencies so that we, at least we would hope, that we would be able to gain from the strength of it and offset the weaknesses and the limitations of it, because we'd sort of learn about ourselves and how to manage ourselves. But I do think it's, that it is something that you're born with. You're not one at 20 and one at 40. You're not one at work and one at home.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  These are consistent aspects of your, of your nature.

• 21:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And do you find that sometimes that, I agree with you too. So I believe personality types are hardwired to and the way we behave. Do you find though that sometimes, almost that because one type of personality is demanding to us from work, that often you find people jostling between two in terms of pretending and acting as opposed to being?

• 21:57Speaker 01

  You know, I think actually it's really hard to be inconsistent with your tendency. That it's pretty, it's in that, and that that will either, either you'll steer yourself to a place where your tendency works for you, or it's going to be a major source of conflict. And so maybe I should go through the tendencies.

• 22:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, please.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  So there's, there's a quiz, if people want to take a quiz that like gives you an answer and spits out a report, because some people get a kick out of that. If you just go to quiz.gretchenrubin.com, it's like 11 questions.

• 22:25Jay Shetty?

  Quiz.gretchenrubin.com. Go there now. I love quizzes and I love it.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Yes. Like 2.8 million people have taken this quiz and it's free, so you can get your little report. But the fact is, most people know what they are just from the brief description that I'll give right now. They, it's pretty, these are very blatant, these are not subtle tendencies. You'll know what you are, you'll know the people at your workplace, people in your family, Game of Thrones characters, people in, you know, in parks and recreation, you know, TV shows, movies, they're all around us. Anyway, so it looks at how you respond to outer and inner expectations. So again, outer is like a work deadline, inner is like a New Year's resolution. So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They, they want to do what others expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. And so their motto is, discipline is my freedom. They want to

• 23:14Speaker 01

  execute and follow through. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they want justification, research, rationale, reasons. They resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified. So if something meets their own inner standard, they will do it no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So their motto is, I will comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And so this is my friend on the track team. When she had a team and a coach expecting her to show up, she had no trouble showing up. But when she was just trying to go on her own, but it was her inner expectation, she struggled.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  And so the key thing for obligers to realize is if they want to meet an inner expectation, they have to create a system of outer expectation. If you want to read more, join a book group. If you want to exercise more, take a class, exercise with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up. You know, think of your duty to be a role model to somebody else. There's a million ways to create accountability once you realize that's what you need. So their motto is, "You can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me." And then finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically, they don't tell themselves what to do. Like, they won't sign up for a 10 a.m.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  spin class on Saturday because they think, "I don't know what I want to do on Saturday, and just the idea that it's on my calendar is going to annoy me." So their motto is, "You can't make me, and neither can I." And obligers, the biggest tendency for both men and women. You either are an obliger, or you have many obligers in your life. And rebel is the smallest tendency. It's conspicuous, but it's a small tendency.

• 25:08Jay Shetty?

  Okay, good to know. Great, great foundation setting for all of those areas. Everyone, upholders, questioners, obligers, or rebels. And Gretchen told you the quiz as well. quiz.gretchenrubin.com is where you can take that quiz. So let's dive into all of them a bit more because I won't be able to understand how they connect. One of the big ones for me is what I find is how...

• 25:34Jay Shetty?

  We, we think everyone, we, we have two kind of, we have the mirror belief where we think everyone thinks like us.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 25:41Jay Shetty?

  Right?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:42Jay Shetty?

  And then, and then sometimes we run into the other extreme where it's like, well, no one thinks like me and I think differently.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I completely agree with you. You're either in one or the other. Either everyone is like me or no one is like me. Yes.

• 25:56Jay Shetty?

  Which, whereas with this framework, we start to understand that there are some people that think like me and there are some people that don't. Tell us about how to communicate with each type in a way so that they understand, because I feel like that's where we really see this come alive. I know in my life, where I've seen these tools become the most applicable is when I change the language and the way I speak to certain people, because that's the language that they understand and resonate with. Can you tell us a bit about those?

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'll tell you where you can see this play out. Not now because of the pandemic, but in general, if you go to the office kitchen and you look at the signage, you will see all the tendencies like in full blossom, because everybody is coming to it from their own perspective and they don't understand why people disagree. And you're exactly right, you can use the tendencies to really minimize conflict, end procrastination, and also just to show more compassion to yourself and more compassion to other people. So I'll start with obliger, because that's the biggest tendency. So obligers need accountability and a lot of times other tendencies, like I'm an upholder is my tendency, will say things like, well, I don't want to be your babysitter. Do it whenever it's right for you. Like, I don't want to have to check on you, but, but, but obligers do much better work when they do have accountability and when they do have deadlines and deliverables and check-ins.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  On the other hand, rebels don't like that. They don't like somebody looking over their shoulder. They don't like somebody checking in. They want to do what they want to do in their own way. And if they feel like you're telling them what to do, even if you're praising them for what you're doing, they may start to resist. And so the kind of behavior that might be very effective and even necessary with an obliger could be counterproductive with a rebel. Like, I, I know a rebel who was working as a, as a consultant, and he had a boss who said, this is a really hard problem. I don't know what to do. You've got the chops to deal with this. Go away, figure it out in a month if you run into it. To roadblocks, let me know, otherwise come back to me with a solution. And he's like, that's how I do my best work. But to an obliger, they'd be like, what is happening? Like, I have no, like, I need a little more structure.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  So obliger said to me, when I, when I try to apply for a new job, I say, I work best with a tough boss. Are you a tough, demanding boss? Because that's how I give my best work. Questioners need reasons. When I talk to healthcare professionals, they know, they know this kind of person very well. Where they're like, you're telling me to walk a mile before breakfast every day. Why a mile? Why before breakfast? Why am I walking, not running? What if I take a bike? What if it's in the evening? I don't understand. And it's like, they will get on board, but they have to have their questions answered. And if you say, because we've always done it this way, or because I'm the doctor and I say so, or because you said you would, or that's the law, they're like, I don't understand. Like, this doesn't make any sense. And therefore, it's illegitimate.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  So for the, with questioners, you have to take the time to take them through. And so, let's say you're in a work situation. You want to think about, well, how can I, how can I give everybody what they need, but not burden everybody with what they need? So like, let's say you were going to implement a new software program. You might say to a group, oh, you know, we're switching to a different software program. I'm going to give you a 20-minute presentation about why we're doing this. And then if you feel like you've heard enough, please feel free to return to your desk. If you would like to stay here and ask me further questions about why we feel like this is the right decision, I'm happy to stay here until you really understand why we think this is the right course for our company. The questioners get their questions answered, because by the way, they often will just silently not go along with what people tell them to do. And that can cause a lot of conflict and a lot of like, you know, inefficiency.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  They need to have their questions answered. But, you know, maybe the, maybe the obliger's like, whatever, that's not my problem. Like, just tell me what you want me to do, and I, I got other stuff on my to-do list. So when you know the tendencies, you can, you can think cleverly about how to give people what they need and not burden them with a lot of stuff they don't need.

• 29:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, those are such great insights, whether it's workplace, whether it's family. You know, it's just, we often wonder why people aren't, you know, motivated.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:51Jay Shetty?

  Where we are.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:53Jay Shetty?

  How do you not get this?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yes. No, that's exactly what happens with the tendencies. Everybody does what would work with their tendencies. So questioners delude people with with research and articles and and and data and get very tired. Some people are like, too many, you have too many questions, too much information. Obligers, everybody's like, you keep saying this is important to you. I don't understand why you're not doing it. Like, you keep saying you want to exercise. Why can't you, why can't you keep your promise to yourself? Rebels, people are like, why don't you ever do what I want you to do? And then upholders, well, they get rigid. They're like, oh, I'm sorry, I have to go to bed at 10:00 PM every night. And I don't care if it's your anniversary party. I got to go home because I'm going running at 8:00 AM. You know what I mean? So when you understand that other people have a different perspective, a lot of times it makes you, you're, you might think, well,

• 30:38Speaker 01

  it's kind of annoying the way you are, but I'm not going to take it personally. And I'm not going to feel like you're a jerk. I just understand how you're bringing a different perspective to it.

• 30:49Jay Shetty?

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• 31:31Jay Shetty?

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• 32:06Jay Shetty?

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• 32:50Jay Shetty?

  Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. In your perspective, what are the recommended occupations behind certain? Because I feel like often people may reflect and be like, "Oh, wait a minute, I don't get to be this in my job or role, or I'm not really playing this role." Tell us a bit about, yeah, what are the, are there recommended jobs? Does it mean you can't be a job? How do you almost create a pathway to success, knowing your tendency?

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there's so many qualities that make somebody good at a particular profession. I think that just about any tendency could do just about any profession well. Like, I could imagine being a lawyer, as an upholder, as a questioner, as an obligerate, I would think they would all do that really well. But I also think that you're right, that certain professions tend to value certain aspects of nature more highly, and so people tend to do well. Like, I would say that question-asking professions, maybe scientists, journalists, might be particularly appealing to questioners because it just scratches that itch that they have. It kind of gives them permission. Rebels, interestingly, often are entrepreneurs because they want to do things their own way. They don't want to take advice or direction from anybody else. They also often thrive in sales because with sales, a lot of times it's like, listen,

• 34:08Speaker 01

  whatever you gotta do to make that sale, like, okay, fine, you know, and so they have that freedom. They often do better in positions where every day is different. Like, I talked to somebody who was a restaurant manager. So, he was like, I'm on the road all the time, every day is different, I'm always with different people, nobody really knows where I am, they're not keeping track of me, there was a lot of freedom and choice, and that's really important to a rebel. However, some rebels are very attracted to areas of high-regulation, like the clergy, the military, the police, because they like to have something to resist. They need the energy of kind of pushing back. Upholders tend to thrive in places where it's pretty clear what does success look like, what are the rules. They tend not to like things where there's a lot of emphasis on flexibility and like

• 34:51Speaker 01

  sudden shifts, like, I'm working for a visionary leader who every day has a different plan. It's like, as an upholder, I don't like working that way. Or where it's ambiguous, what the rules are, or what success looks like, they tend to want to make a plan and execute it. And questioners do not like to be in a place where things are not justified. Again, like a visionary leader where you're supposed to just like do what that person wants without justification can be very annoying. And obligers really need that added accountability. Now, what's good is that usually the workplace is kind of an easy place to get accountability because you automatically have deadlines and deliverables and a boss and a team and clients and students and all that. So, often obligers will do very well at work, and then they don't understand why they can't do equally well at home.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  They don't understand, well, at work, I have all this accountability, this architecture that's keeping me going. If I would create the same architecture for myself in my private life, I would also succeed with my private aims, but I don't understand that I need to figure out how to create that kind of accountability at home as well as in the office. And so, for many obligers, that's like a huge light bulb to understand, why can I keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself? It's like, that's just a thing that obligers experience, like, there's no shame in that, there's no weakness in that, you just fix it, and then you're done. It's very simple, and it's not easy, but it's straightforward.

• 36:18Jay Shetty?

  How do you improve the natural weaknesses that come up in each? And which weaknesses do you focus on? Because, yeah, let's start there and then I'll follow up. I don't want to ask like three questions in one. Let's start there.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  No, and I think you're exactly right. This is the question because this is where we have the opportunity to grow. It's like to see the weakness. So like my tendency is upholder. And so I would say the weaknesses that you often see with upholders is rigidity. Like we get it in our mind that something's supposed to happen a certain way and it's very hard to get off of that. You know, it's like, I remember I got invited to a wedding and they're like, "The bus is leaving for the church at 5:00." And then the bride's mother was like, "No, we're, it's actually leaving at 4:30." And I was like, "Well, see, that's not possible because I have a card." And it's like, "What?" You know, that kind of rigidity. And upholders can be kind of judgmental and cold because they're, I'm like, "Hey, Jay, we both have our reports due on Friday and you want me to proofread your report, but like, I gotta proofread my own report. I don't have time to help you."

• 37:14Speaker 01

  To an upholder, that seems right because I'm meeting my inner expectation. But to other people, it can seem cold, like you need to like make an effort to extend yourself. And upholders can be judgmental because things tend to come, certain things come more easily to them than they do to other people. Questioners need to learn how to ask questions in a constructive way. They can seem disrespectful or like not team players. If I'm a thin-skinned boss and you're asking me question after question, I start to think, "You don't trust my judgment. You're questioning my authority. You're not a team player. I don't want to work for you." So questioners need to learn how to ask questions in a way that don't make other people feel like they're on a stand, you know, or that they're being grilled. Or that there's cheekiness. You know, a lot of times questioner children get in trouble because they're like, "Well, why should I do this dumb book report?"

• 37:59Speaker 01

  It's like, they really are saying, "Why should I do a dumb book report?" So they need to do that. And also questioners can sometimes have analysis paralysis. This is when their desire for perfect information makes it hard to move forward and to make a decision. Because sometimes in this world, we have to, we can't wait for perfect information, right? What kind of email platform should I use? I can research that for the next year. You know, at a certain point, they have to say it's more efficient to decide and learn and experiment than to keep researching. For obligers, their weakness is this, it's not even a weakness, it's just a fact. They need outer accountability and they have to get that outer accountability. And so whether that's taking a class or teaching a class or thinking of your duty

• 38:43Speaker 01

  to your future self, or your duty to be a role model, or hiring a coach, you know, joining AA or Weight Watchers, all these things are ways to create outer accountability. Now, obligers have an interesting phenomenon where they can fall into obliger rebellion.

• 38:56Jay Shetty?

  Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. I'm glad you brought that up.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  So they meet, meet, meet an expectations and then suddenly they snap and they say, "This I will not do." It happens when they feel like exploited, or taken advantage of, or unheard. And sometimes it's small, like, "I'm not gonna answer your emails for two weeks." And sometimes it's huge, like, "I'm gonna quit this job and walk out today." And it's done to kind of blow up a situation that's become just kind of untenable for the obliger. But it can have very serious reputational consequences because to the other tendencies, it doesn't make sense. I'm like, "Jay, I asked you if you wanted to be on this committee and you said okay. So I don't understand why you're so mad. I don't understand that you're already on seven committees and nobody else in this company is on more than two, and that's not fair. And so now you're rebelling."

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Because that's how obliger rebellion gets started. And then, so for rebels, they can do whatever they want to do. And so with a rebel, you just can't tell them what to do. And that is hard. It can be frustrating to live or work with somebody who isn't gonna do what you tell them to do. So if you're dealing with a rebel, you either want to remind them of how it fits into their identity, "You're doing this because you're an athlete, you're an animal lover, you're a musician, you're a poet, you're a writer. This is who you are." Or you give them information consequences choice. "Look, if you do your physical therapy, this happens. If you don't do your physical therapy, that happens. Up to you." That's what tends to work best with rebels because they want to, and then sometimes also they will work with a challenge.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Like, I know a guy who quit smoking because his 18-year-old son, "No, guy, like, you could never quit smoking." He's like, "Watch me." So he quit smoking.

• 40:34Jay Shetty?

  That's great. I love that one. That's awesome. I think when I'm, when I'm listening to all the descriptions, I definitely feel myself to be in the rebel category.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 40:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I definitely find myself, and it's interesting that you brought out the both examples of the rebel category of the, you spoke about the army and the clergy, but then you also talk about entrepreneur. And it's interesting that obviously, my life previously is living as a monk, and now doing what I do today, it's, I like how you're able to, I think we look at tendencies as so singular. Like when you hear the word rebel, you wouldn't necessarily think of monk, but I often talk about how monk life was like the ultimate rebellion.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:17Jay Shetty?

  Because it was literally saying, well, this version of the world doesn't work. Like this, this path doesn't work. I'm gonna go find a completely extreme and different.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:26Jay Shetty?

  A path.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Well, and I'll, I'll tell you, if you want to do some rebel monk reading, Thomas Merton, who was a very famous Carthusian monk, who lived several decades ago, you read his journals, because it is like Diary of a Rebel as a Monk. And it is really fascinating, and exactly that thing, like, I'm gonna do the extreme, unexpected thing, the thing people think I can't do. And I'm kind of going all the way. And it's very fascinating how those, how those. Another thing, and maybe this will resonate with other parts of your career, I was talking to a guy who's a rebel who worked for, I won't say the name of the company, but let's just say it's like a very big, famous tech company that's well-known for being very controlling. And I said, how does a rebel like you work for a place like this? He's like, ah, they're working for me.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I'm gonna start my own company. They're training me. I'm getting paid to learn how to do all this stuff. And then I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna start my own company. So to him, they were all working for him. This is what he wanted. And I was like, right, he's doing it in a rebel way, but it's allowing him to get wonderful experience at a really, really big prestigious company. And, but he did it in a rebel way. He found the rebel mindset that allowed him to do it.

• 42:35Jay Shetty?

  That's what I love about what you're saying. It's, it's all about the mindset. It's not what you're externally doing.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:40Jay Shetty?

  And, and that, the beauty of that is, is that no matter where you are, if you Go all in on the mindset that you naturally are, the tendency that you actually are, then you're guaranteed to find in that space what you want. And so what you just said to me resonates so strongly with me because I, after living as a monk, I actually worked at Accenture for a company.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yes, right.

• 43:04Jay Shetty?

  Big corporate.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  That's what made me think of it.

• 43:07Jay Shetty?

  Five hundred thousand people. And the most amazing thing is that I was completely a rebel inside the company. And so it was that the mindset that you had, I never, I don't think I have the, I don't think I had the element of thinking people work for me, but I definitely had that complete understanding of I'm here to learn.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:24Jay Shetty?

  Growing.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:26Jay Shetty?

  I'm actually carving out a career path in the company that is so rare and unique.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:31Jay Shetty?

  That hasn't existed for ninety percent of people inside the company before. And I'm going to go all in on that. I don't believe I have to become the generalist. I don't believe I have to become what they want me to become. I believe I can create my own path.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  But see, and your example is perfect for why we need all of the tendencies in a workplace. Because it's very, when you're hiring, of course, you gravitate to people of your tendency because they think the way you think, they have their same responses that you have. Everything seems very sensible. But think of how your company would have lost out if they hadn't had your rebel entrepreneurial spirit and the way that you were able to see and be attracted to an opportunity that nobody else saw or wanted to pursue. Right? Maybe for whatever reason, they're like, oh, why would I take that risk? Why would I do that? Nobody's done that before. Whereas for you, that's like catnip. For other people, that maybe was a turn off, but they needed you there because they needed what you could bring. And so I think when you're hiring or you're putting together a team, you need to be very careful.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Like I've had people say to me, I only want to hire obligers. Teach me how to screen for obliger. And I'm like, obligers are wonderful. They're the rock of the world, but you don't want only obligers. Because you need the questioners to be like, why the heck are we doing this? You need the rebels to be like, let's do something completely out of the box. You need the upholders who are like, these, we're going to, we're going to execute. We are going to surpass, and we have our eye on that excellence. They all bring so much to it. Um, and I think that your, your, your, your history is a perfect example of why even somebody who's like, I don't like working with a rebel. It's like, well, suck it up because you need that.

• 45:03Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, that's, it's because as all these examples you're giving me are making it more and more clear to me why I'm definitely a rebel and it, and it makes so much sense and it completely. You know, it's almost like, there's a beautiful verse that I quote in my book, Think Like a Monk, but it comes from the Manu Smithi, and it says that, "When you protect your purpose, your purpose protects you." And it's almost like, and when we're using the word "Dharma" or "purpose" in the monk context, it very much applies to a tendency or a personality type. And what I mean by that is, it's almost like, I feel like the work world is constantly trying to get, or at least, maybe this is just a rebel experience,

• 45:48Jay Shetty?

  so you can tell me if it's just a rebel.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 45:50Jay Shetty?

  I feel like, I've always felt like, everyone is always trying to get me to not be a rebel. Like, I feel like I'm always being, trying to be pulled, and that may be every personality that feels that, so I'm not saying it's just me. But I've always felt that, and I've had people openly tell me that. I had one executive who said to me, "Jay, you know, when you were at Accenture and you were dabbling in like, social media and meditation and all that kind of stuff." He was just like, I was like, "Who's this kid? He doesn't know what he's doing, like, he's gonna ruin his career." And, you know, he came up to me afterwards, probably earlier on in my media career, and was just like, "Jay, this is how I felt about you when I first saw you, but it's really amazing that you proved me wrong and you found your own path." And I was just thinking that, I've always come across that resistance, which was like, "Really? Do you really wanna do that?"

• 46:34Jay Shetty?

  Like, is that something that all tendencies experience? Or is that something specifically a rebel experience?

• 46:40Speaker 01

  You know, I think that everybody feels that in their own way. And it's, so I think questioners are like, "Who are these lemmings? Everybody is just going along without asking why? Like, who are you people? Like, this makes no sense." And the obligers are like, "Why is everybody telling me what to do? Why are they, why am I always the one saying yes? Why is, you know, why am I the one struggling with boundaries? Why, why can't other people just act like civilized people and do their part? And I'm always the one picking up the slack?" And then the rebels are like, "Why is everybody trying to tell me what to do? Just get out of my way and stop talking to me, and I will do it." And so I think that, and then upholders, of course, when you get upholders together, we're just like, why can't anybody else get their stuff done?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Like, we just are all, you know? And so I do feel like there is that aspect to it where you sort of feel like everybody's experiencing it, but people are experiencing kind of slightly different versions of it. Now, you're a rebel, but it's interesting because all the tendencies kind of tip in one direction or another because all the tendencies overlap. So there's rebels who tip to obliger, and there's rebels who tip to questioner. So rebels who tip to obliger tend to have more of a spirit of resistance. They're like, you can't tell me what to do. And even if it's something I want to do, if you tell me to do it, now I won't do it because I'm not going to let you think that you're telling me what to do. Then there are rebels who tip to questioner, and they're more like, I'm marching to the beat of my own drummer. I don't care what you want me to do. I'm going to do what I want to do, whether you want me to do it or not, I don't care.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  I think you're a rebel who tips to questioner, which by the way is what Steve Jobs was, which is like, I have my own path, doesn't really, like, you know what, I've got to do things my own way. But if you weigh in, it's not going to ignite the spirit of resistance to me one way or another. Whereas rebels who tip to obliger really feel like if somebody tells them what to do, it's like they just have to resist. And in a way that they become controlled in the negative. So then they have to manage that, I think, a little bit. I think you're a rebel who tips to questioner.

• 48:44Jay Shetty?

  It's even more crazy because unless you really, and I don't know if you do know this, so I am like a huge Steve Jobs fan.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Oh, well, there you go. Probably because you're like, everything he says makes so much sense.

• 48:57Jay Shetty?

  Literally, when you said that, I was just like, that's so funny because no one ever understands how I can be a Steve Jobs fan. And I'm fascinated by so much about him as a human, including his spiritual quest, too. He spent a lot of time with monks and spiritual traditions and at the same time had so many other complexities in his life, of course, like we all do. But yeah, I would agree with you on that definition. I've never felt the resistance. I was bringing up the resistance because I think... It's such an important thing to protect your tendency. In the sense of, I feel like there's such a need for you to know truly what your tendency is, so that you can go all in on that tendency with confidence.

• 49:40Jay Shetty?

  Because I think sometimes we doubt our tendencies.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:44Jay Shetty?

  We doubt whether it's the right thing, or we doubt whether it's a good thing. Tell us about that, and like, looking at it from a good or bad thing. Sometimes we can train to believe that certain qualities we actually have as a tendency are actually negative in the world, but actually a positive for us.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Well, I think you're exactly right, and it really saddens me when people say, "Well, I don't like my tendency, I want to be this tendency, how do I change?" And the thing is, it's like, they all have strengths, they all have weaknesses, they all include people who are wildly successful, and also people who are big losers. And really, when you look at the people who are the most successful, the happiest, the healthiest, they're really the people who have figured out how to harness the strengths of their tendencies the most effectively, and then also how to offset the limitations or the weaknesses of their tendencies most effectively. Now, where you see this a lot is with obligers. Because obligers, they say, "Well, it's weak that I rely on outer accountability, I don't want to have to do that." Why is it weak? It's a huge percentage of people need outer accountability, just put it in there, and

• 50:47Speaker 01

  then you can achieve your aim. I don't think that you need to transcend it or transform it, it's just embrace it. And like you say, go with it, and then, because you're going with the kind of the natural course of your stream, your little boat is going to float much faster. And so obligers will often say that. Now, sometimes rebels say that, because they can really get frustrated with themselves if they haven't figured out how to get themselves to do what they want. So, if you're an entrepreneur, but you can't get yourself to do the dredge work, well, that's going to slow you down. Or maybe every time you decide that you're going to exercise every day, then you immediately refuse to do it. I know somebody who was like, "I decided I was gonna give up carbohydrates." And I went out the next day and bought a big loaf of sourdough bread,

• 51:31Speaker 01

  because I'm not, no one tells me what to do, including me. So part of it is figuring out, okay, well, how do I do it? And I've heard from so many rebels who are like, "Everybody told me that there was something wrong with me, that I wasn't a real grown up. I couldn't get things done in the normal way. And now that I know who I am, I can embrace it and take pride in it and see the power of it, enormously powerful tendency. And I can set things up in a way that will allow me to succeed in my own way. And here's the thing about rebels, is a lot of times, people make it worse. I mean, I just, if you're the parent of a rebel, or the spouse of a rebel, or the boss of a rebel, you think, "Oh, I'll make a list. I'll give helpful, I'll make a star chart. I'll give helpful hints and reminders." No, every time you do that, you ignite this spirit of resistance.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  If you would just shut up and stay away, then the rebel would be like, "Oh, I do need to apply for a job, or I do need to make my bed, or I do want to get an A on the chem exam." And they will do it. But people trying to be helpful often do exactly the wrong thing. And then again, then that creates the spiral of, "Why can't I do the things that others tell me I want to do and maybe that I want to do for myself? And yet, there's something that keeps tripping me up in my own head." Once you understand the pattern, it's very easy to say, "Oh, oh, you can't use a to-do list?" A lot of rebels don't like to use to-do lists. This is a very common pattern. So what do you do? Here's these other things that rebels do to kind of get to the place that other people use a to-do list for. Or obligers, it's like people will say,

• 53:00Speaker 01

  "I don't understand it. I do really well on Weight Watchers." And then I say to myself, "Why would I pay to go? I know the whole routine. I don't need to do that. I don't need the time and the money." And then I gain all the weight back. And it's like, "Oh, because I need the accountability." So maybe there's many ways to create that accountability, once I realize that that's the key thing for me. So now I have a lot more freedom to get where I want to go, because I understand what I need. And there isn't a magic one-size-fits-all solution. Like you say, we're all different, and we need to take a different path, but we can all achieve our aim, even if we go different ways there.

• 53:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's a great answer. This is revelatory. I feel like I'm getting a personal for tendencies masterclass.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Oh, good. Yes.

• 53:47Jay Shetty?

  And I'm learning so much more about myself. And that's how I've always felt that I've become more confident about my tendency as life has gone on.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 53:56Jay Shetty?

  The more I've exercised it. And I feel like often, even if we are a tendency, we may not be exercising enough consciously enough where we develop a confidence around it.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  No, I think you're exactly right. And I think probably it's because you've figured out how to succeed. And so you have faith in yourself because you're like, you know, I've figured things out in the past. I'll probably figure this out. I know what's worked for me in the past. So I can figure out like how to sort of replicate that. I think what happens for some people is they've tried and they've gotten discouraged. Or they see other people around them using a certain method or a certain process or a certain curriculum and having great success. And then they think, well, if my brother in law can do it, if my boss can do it, what's wrong with me? Instead of saying, well, that's something that works for my brother in law. But that maybe I'll try it. It might be useful to think about if it worked for him, maybe it'll work for me. I love a data point of

• 54:49Speaker 01

  one. But maybe it's not. And I think knowing your tendency makes you don't have to just throw spaghetti against the wall. You can sort of be you can be targeted and say, this sounds like the kind of thing that would work for a questioner. Because there's a lot of justification. There's a lot of data here. This is really like answering all my questions. I feel like I can really get on board with this program.

• 55:09Jay Shetty?

  I love that. Yeah. And that's also what helps us have more compassion for other people.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 55:14Jay Shetty?

  Right? Like, I think that that's what's missing in the world right now in so many areas where we kind of just don't realize that for some people, it's going to take a year. And for some people, it's going to take a day. And for some people, it's going to take a book. And for some people, it's going to take an overseas trip or whatever it is. Like, it's just, it's, it helps you build so much compassion because you go, oh, I get it. Why I learned this quickly and you learn it slowly and you learn that quick, I learn it slowly.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Well, I had this exact experience with my husband. So my husband's a questioner. And I was filling out some boring form that we had to fill out as a couple. And that's why it's nice to be married to a Polder, because I'm the one that's just going to go ahead and get it done to get it off the list. And he had changed jobs recently, so I didn't know his office address. So I called him and I said, hey, Jamie, what's your office address? And what did he say? Why do you want to know? And I would have said years ago, before I came up with this, I would have been like, why can't you just answer a simple question? Why does everything have to be long drawn out? I'm the one doing all this work. You're just slowing things down. Are you jerking my chain? Why are you so annoying? And now I'm like, he doesn't do anything unless he understands why. That it's, it's like he's like that with me. He's like that with everybody. I, I might be annoyed by it, but I don't have to be hurt by it. It's a reflection on our relationship. And I know, what should I have said?

• 56:26Speaker 01

  I should have said, hey, Jamie, I'm filling out that boring bureaucratic form. What's your work address? And he would have told me, no problem. He just needs to know why. And so again, it's like, I don't take it personally anymore. Cause I know that's just, that's just where he's coming from. And a lot of times I benefit from it. It's great for me in many ways to have a questioner in my life. I'll say to him, I feel like I have to do this. Do I have to do this? And he'd be like, why would you do that? I'm like, you're right. I'm not going to do that. You know, it's very freeing for me to consult with him.

• 56:53Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I, I love what you just said there. You, you said, I'm allowed to be annoyed, but, but I'm never hurt by it.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:00Jay Shetty?

  And I think that that's true that, and you know, and eventually what you explained, you realize you're like, actually, I don't even need to be annoyed by it. It can actually help me.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:09Jay Shetty?

  I think it's a refreshing perspective because half the things we argue about, whether it's with our spouses or with partners or girlfriends or boyfriends or people in the workplace is usually just because we're speaking in different tendencies.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:23Jay Shetty?

  It's usually not that much deeper than that. And the problem is that we, we take it to be hurt and emotional.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:31Jay Shetty?

  Connect and emotional distance. Tell me about, is there a recommended partner or friendship?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 57:38Jay Shetty?

  Type like, are you meant, should you marry someone? Or should you, uh, obviously you've taught us how we can adapt, but is there a recommended friend type or business partner or marriage?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Well, here's the most striking pattern. If there is a, and you can tell me if this is true for you. When you have a rebel who's paired up either in romance or in a work life, like a founding team. If one person is a rebel, almost always the other person is an obliger. Now, there are exceptions and they usually, it's funny, the exceptions themselves fall into very distinct categories. But almost always if there's a rebel, they're paired up with an obliger. Because questioners and upholders tend not to work well with rebels, but obligers do work well with rebels. And actually obligers are the, they're the kind of type O appropriately. They are the ones that team up the most easily with all other three tendencies, which is good. They're the biggest tendency and they do the best with the other three.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Upholders tend to do very well with questioners. I'm an upholder married to a questioner and that tends to be very consistent. Again, they can work with obligers, they can work with rebels. But rebels and upholders are kind of the two opposite. They're the most extreme personality types. They tend not to work well together because just what they value is so different. So like maybe as a rebel, you experiences, there's a lot of value on spontaneity. There's a lot of value, let's, let's keep things open. Let's let things play out. Let's see how we feel. As an upholder, I put no value on spontaneity. I want to have a plan for everything. I just like to live that way. Well, that's hard for us to work together because I'm trying to plan out six months and you're trying to keep our days open. Or you might like have a vision and be like, let's rethink the priorities of this company.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  And I'm like, but I've made, you know, I've have such an extensive execution plan. It's distressing to me to like throw it all away, whereas you find that like very liberating and freeing and creative. I find it creative to dig deep and execute over the long term. So it's not that they can't, but it's often that they like to work in such different ways that they end up just not, not enjoying working with each other as much. In a big team, you could, you could have it, but if it's just like a pair, it can be hard.

• 59:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's a really, that's actually good to know, I think, for people because, you know, obviously me and Gretchen are not sitting here saying, don't marry someone who's not.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Right. No, no. And there are many, many exceptions, obviously.

• 1:00:01Jay Shetty?

  Or break up with someone. Right. We're not saying that at all, but you've got to know what you're working with. Whether you're dating or already married, you've got to know what to adapt to. The great example that you gave, Gretchen, about you and your husband having a conversation, you know, it's, it's, it can be so beneficial, actually. And if we don't just look at that difference as emotional, and I think sometimes we take it too personally, too emotionally, you don't realize that it's a tendency.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Well, like, I collaborate with a lot of rebels. And believe me, whenever I write an email, it's like, if this works for you, if this sounds fun, whatever it's convenient for you, something that you could do, if you thought it would help you, is this. Because I know, I don't, I want them to be like, this sounds fun, this works for me, this gets me what I want. I will do it in my own way. I don't want to accidentally push their buttons by like, could you please do this by Friday? Because they're going to be like, uh, yeah, I don't want to do it by Friday. Because like, I don't want to get in their way or my way. So it's, everything is the same. I just be, I just am careful to frame it in a way that will be sweet to their ears. It's, it's totally easy to do once I know that that's the way to communicate more effectively. And that's true of everybody in our lives.

• 1:01:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. How does it work in terms of conflict in relationships? So if there's a conflict in a relationship, do some of these tendencies, in all the tendencies, do we tend to close off or open up? Is it different? How does it work for the different tendencies?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Well, one point of conflict that comes up sometimes with obligers is the other tendencies will say, why do you keep talking about this and you don't follow through? And they get very kind of exasperated. You keep saying you want to exercise. You say you want to switch careers. You say you want to write a novel in your free time. Do it, don't do it, I don't care. But I don't, I'm, I don't like seeing you just keep talking about it. And so they get frustrated and they don't understand. Now, sometimes, often sweethearts don't make good accountability partners. And it's also very burdensome to be an accountability partner. That's why many people hire coaches and, you know, people like, you know, you hire somebody to do it so they're trained at it and they, they're really good at it. Um, but if you understand that's what's necessary, a lot of times, again, that emotion drains out of it.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  And you're like, well, let's get you what you need. Instead of like, why am I getting frustrated with you? Or feeling like, you know, you're, you're somehow like, not keeping your promises to yourself. With questioners, the conflict often comes from them feeling like people are asking them to do things that are arbitrary. So here's an example, like somebody's like, if I said to my husband, like, we don't have a suburban house, but like something, a friend's wife was just saying, she said her husband, "Let's clean out the basement this weekend." And he's like, "We never use the basement, why would we clean it out?" It's like, that just doesn't make any sense to him. But if she said something, and then she gets irritated because he'll never do it, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if she said, "Oh, we're having company come in two weeks, and their kids need someplace to sleep. If we clean out the basement, they can have a whole room to themselves. Let's do it by, you know, by the time they come."

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  It's like, I see why I'm being asked to do this, and I see the timeline, and this makes sense to me. You're gonna have a lot less conflict if you present the reasons. And then with the rubble, again, it's like, a lot of times, it's because I'm trying to tell you what to do. And I mean, on the Happier Podcast, we had two people call in with questions, like, in the same two weeks, where they had sweethearts who needed to look for jobs. One guy had been laid off, and one guy was moving to a new city to be with his girlfriend. And these, one was a questioner, one was a writer, they're like, "What do I do to help my boyfriend look for a job?" And it's like, nothing. These guys know they need a job. Like, if you make a list and remind them, make a list of phone numbers, circle things in the newspaper, you're gonna ignite that spirit of resistance. Let them do it in their own way.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  They got this. Just let them do it in their own way. Now, it might not be your way, you know? This is like when someone decides to clean out the basement at 2 o'clock in the morning, because that's what they feel like. Don't get in their way. Let them do it when they want to, spontaneity. When they feel like it, their choice, their freedom. But once you recognize that, and what a high value it is, you can let the rubble do it.

• 1:04:05Jay Shetty?

  I love that. That's amazing. I absolutely love that. Yeah, no, it's, I really believe everyone needs to, at some point, dive deep into this.

• 1:04:16Jay Shetty?

  Work in their life, you know, because it's just, it can solve so many issues in so many areas of our life, simply by deeply understanding people and wanting to communicate with them in a way that actually, and that is compassion, that is empathy, that is a real connection. It's not a technique, it's not a manipulation strategy, it's not a tool, it's it's not to take advantage of someone, it's to deeply speak to someone's wiring in their heart without, without making it so difficult to understand someone.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Well, and I hear this a lot from doctors and nurses, physical therapists, occupational therapists, people like that, where they do want to connect with their patients. They, they want so much to be helpful, to be of service, to help people get out of pain and get towards good health. And they're very frustrated because they know that in many cases, they are not successfully communicating and reaching those patients. And so they're very excited to have a tool where, as you say, it's not about manipulation, it's not about tricking somebody. It's about speaking in a way that it's going to strike a chord with them, in a way that's going to allow their actions to follow their thoughts. You write about this all the time. How do we put our, our values and our ideas into the world? That's not always as easy as it sounds.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  And so this is a way to kind of make that match more effective.

• 1:05:38Jay Shetty?

  Gretchen, this has been amazing. I love this conversation. It's, it's so great. It's, it's something that I get a real personal, it's probably one of my favorite topics in the world, actually, because it's just so... I, I feel like this, this understanding has made the biggest impact on where I am today and how I feel. Because in, in the, in the monk teaching, it's called Dharma, and the psychopath who nature is called Dharma, and that's, that's what I studied. And, and when you look at the Four Tendencies, it's so brilliantly explained, and I love the detail you go into of really helping someone understand which one they are. So, anyone who's listening and watching, I highly recommend the Four Tendencies is a great way of getting some real self-awareness. Take the quiz

• 1:06:21Jay Shetty?

  and, and really dive into the people that you spend the most time with in your life, at work. At home, at least start by knowing theirs. You don't need to walk around with a full tendency radar like Gretchen would know anyone she meets in two seconds and will know what they are. And you know, you may not be at that stage and you may not want to, but it's really important that you understand your family and your work environment. Like if you know those two environments and you know their tendencies, it's going to make a world of difference. I know that we've been using these tools in our recruitment as well. So I use a lot of these tools in recruiting people onto my teams because I want to build, like Gretchen said, a complete holistic team where we have different people allowing us.

• 1:07:03Jay Shetty?

  And when I'm speaking at companies and if we ever use tools like this, we're always looking at like, you want a company that ideally has an equal split rather than be too far off in one or another. So Gretchen, this is amazing. I want to ask you your final five. These are usually questions that are answered in one word or one sentence. I'm asking you some really questions I'm curious about, so you may go slightly over. The final five are meant to be concise, but I give you permission in advance to not.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 1:07:30Jay Shetty?

  I'm asking something I'm really curious about. Okay, so these are all picked up from things you've said. I love this piece of advice. I'm intrigued by it. You've said it's better to have frequent, boring, mundane communication than to save it up. I, before I understood what you meant by that, it took me a while to wrap my head around it, but I love your explanation. So can you explain why?

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  When we talk to people, often we have a lot to say and we don't want to talk to them very often. We're sort of like, I'm fine. How are you? I am also fine. And so like these little mundane details of our lives help us stay connected and kind of keep our relationships more alive.

• 1:08:09Jay Shetty?

  Love it. Great answer. So anyone who's wondering whether you should talk to someone regularly or not as regularly, regularly will be better. Second question, I absolutely love the saying that you said, the days are long, but the years are short. Expand on that, Brian.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  I think of everything that I've ever written in my whole life. Like I did a little video about a story called The Days Are Long But The Years Are Short. And it just really resonates with people. You know, sometimes getting from morning to night, it feels like an eternity, but then you're like, where did May go? Where did 2019 go? Especially I think for the parents of young children, the days can seem very long, but the years seem very short.

• 1:08:47Jay Shetty?

  I love that. Yeah, it's such a beautiful reminder for us as well. And it has so much meaning to it. I love it. Okay, question number three. What are some of the common small challenges you've heard? People made in their lives that significantly boosted their overall happiness? And I love the one minute rule that you speak about.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. The one minute rule is that anything you can do in less than a minute, you do without delay. So if you can hang up a coat, or put a dish in the dishwasher, or file something, and that gets rid of kind of the scum on the clutter of life. Another quick lift, if you need it, is to jump up and down. Do jumping jacks, run down the stairs, jump over a puddle. It's quick, it's lively, it's kind of childlike. And another, one of the easiest, quickest ways to intervene in your mood is to listen to one of your favorite upbeat songs. It's one of the quickest ways to give yourself a boost.

• 1:09:38Jay Shetty?

  I love it. Okay, awesome. Question number four. I know you love children's books.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:43Jay Shetty?

  I've heard that reading them before bed is a great way to unwind. I've actually been reading. My friends have a six-month-old, and I go over once a week or something, and I read a bedtime story from his book. And we sit there and we lie on our backs on the floor, and I read it. And he loves like, he's six months old, because he loves grabbing the book. And it's really beautiful. I mean, children's books are just written so beautifully. And I, you know, I don't have a child yet, but I've definitely connected with them. So I resonate with you. Tell us some of the best children's books you read.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Do you mean picture books, or do you mean like chapter books?

• 1:10:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, picture books, anything, anything.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. So picture books, I love The Lonely Doll. I love The Seven Silly Eaters, Good Night Moon, of course, Crazy, Strange, Where the Wild Things Are.

• 1:10:30Jay Shetty?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Mr. Rabbit and the Gift.

• 1:10:39Jay Shetty?

  That's a lot already.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, those are picture books. And then for chapter books, if you haven't read children's literature lately, you are missing out, because there are so many great books. You should read His Dark Materials, the trilogy, and subsequent books by Philip Pullman, Kristin Keschore's Graceling Trilogy. You know, The Hunger Games is amazing by Suzanne Collins. Really, I can't even, like, my mind is staggering, because I love children's literature so much. There's so much great stuff right now. Oh, Jason Reynolds is a fantastic writer. He's writing today, won every kind of award, Jaclyn Woodson. Um, anyway, there's so many great writers.

• 1:11:19Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. I love it. And fifth and final question, I've heard you say, people know they don't want what they have, but they don't know what they want.

• 1:11:28Jay Shetty?

  Have you heard, do you, do you remember saying this?

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Yes. And I mean, it's hard. And I think you raised this at the beginning of the conversation, which is sometimes we don't know ourselves, you know, we think we, we know ourselves, but we, we know what other people expect from us, or we know what we wish we expected from ourselves. And so sometimes you, or you know what you, you don't want, but you don't know what you do want. Like, and back to my, my career transition, I feel really lucky because I wanted to write a book so desperately. It was like the Death Star pulling me in in its tractor beam. Like, it was very clear to me what I wanted. There's a lot of times when people are making a career shift, they know what they don't want, but they haven't figured out what they do want. And that's when you have to like, read What Color's Your Parachute and like, do all that soul searching. And that's painful and hard, um, because people know what they don't want, but they don't know what they do want.

• 1:12:17Jay Shetty?

  Thank you, Gretchen. And that's your final five. Thank you for being on On Purpose. Everyone who's been listening, go and grab a copy of The Four Tendencies. If you enjoyed this conversation, keep listening to On Purpose and make sure you tag me and Gretchen on Instagram with your biggest insights, anything that she's shared or said that really resonated or connected with you, please do tag us. I love seeing what are the messages that you're really getting from these podcasts. And I'm sure she'll be happy to see them as well. And keep coming back to On Purpose. Thank you so much. Gretchen, thank you for coming.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's so fun to talk to you. I so appreciate it.

• 1:13:00Jay Shetty?

  This podcast was produced by Dust Light Productions. Our executive producer from Dust Light is Misha Youssef. Our senior producer is Juliana Bradley. Our associate producer is Jacqueline Castillo. Valentino Rivera is our engineer. Our music is from Blue Dot Sessions. And special thanks to Rachel Garcia, the Dust Light Development and Operations Coordinator.

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