BETH HOLLOWAY: The Heartbreaking Story of Natalee Holloway and Her Mother's 18-Year Fight For The Truth

Beth Holloway, mother of Natalee Holloway, shares the full story of her 18-year search for answers after Natalee disappeared during a high school graduation trip to Aruba in 2005. She recounts the desperate first hours of the search, coming face to face with Joran van der Sloot, the corruption and dead ends that delayed justice for nearly two decades, and the 2010 extortion attempt that ultimately helped uncover the truth. Beth also opens up about the faith that sustained her through unimaginable loss and how she turned her grief into a mission to help young travelers stay safe. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Learn More. At https://chase.com/sapphirereserve Trigger Warning: The following series contains discussions of kidnapping which some viewers may find troubling. If you or someone you know is struggling, information and crisis resources are available at www.wannatalkaboutit.com JAY'S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe here: https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Introduction 01:57 Who Was Natalee? 03:30 Childhood Memories And Her Nickname "Hootie" 05:10 Preparing For The Graduation Trip To Aruba 07:15 The Call That Natalee Never Made Her Flight Home 08:56 When a Mother's Instincts Take Over 13:10 Her Day Job Vs. Stepping Into Crisis Mode 14:20 The Private Jet to Aruba & First Suspect Details 17:00 A Strange Premonition 19:08 Arriving in Aruba and Finding Unexpected Support 21:00 Staying Mentally Strong During the Search 22:10 Tracking Clues To Carlos And Charlie's 25:11 Uncovering The Security Video And Joran's Identity 28:17 Confronting Joran At His Residence 33:25 False Leads and Alleged Corruption in Aruba 38:26 Using Media Pressure To Keep The Case Alive 43:10 Finding Strength Through Faith 45:13 The Frustration Of Catch-and-Release Arrests 48:30 Media Blame And Natalee's Safety Legacy 55:03 Touring High Schools To Turn Anger Into Purpose 01:01:51 Joran's 2010 Extortion Demand 01:08:27 Finally Reaching Answers And Closure 01:12:44 A Message Of Resilience And Safety Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:51Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose. Today I'm sitting down with Beth Holloway, the mother of Natalie Holloway, whose disappearance during a high school graduation trip to Aruba in 2005 captured the world's attention. For 18 years, Beth fought tirelessly to uncover the truth about what happened to her daughter. Now, with a new Netflix documentary, Revisiting Natalie's Story and Beth's extraordinary search for answers, we're talking about her journey, the strength it took to keep going and what it means to finally have answers after nearly two decades. Beth Holloway, welcome to On Purpose.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jay. It's an honor to be here with you. Thank you.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Now, Beth, I'm so grateful that I get to talk to you today. I was fortunate enough to watch Taken, the documentary that you made with Netflix in preparation for this interview. I want to start by saying I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm so deeply sorry for how you've had to spend the last two decades. And I am so deeply moved by your courage, your love, your perseverance, when I think so many others would have given up. So I just wanted to start off by acknowledging your incredible, deep love for you and your family and what you've been able to do for the last two decades. So thank you for trusting me and my platform.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  Beth, for those who don't know Natalie's story, could you tell us a little bit about who Natalie was?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Natalie was really just like every other 18-year-old, just had her whole life ahead of her. Ambitions, goals. She had just graduated from high school and was on her way to college and medical school after that. She was, she was such an academic achiever. But Natalie also had the fun side to her where she could be humorous and funny and have the light side with her friends, but she always traveled in a large pack of friends. I mean, the girls must have been like 40 girls that were always coming in and out.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  And I can even remember, Jay, I never took my children on a vacation without taking one, if not two, mostly, most of the time it was two of her friends. Poor Matt, he didn't get to take anyone. My son was like, no, no, you can't. But Natalie, so she would travel even, they were always with her. They were there for her, danced with her, laughed with her, cried with her. Her friends were everything to her, yet she could achieve full academic scholarships to the University of Alabama. So I think that's a pretty well-balanced young girl.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  And which a lot of our young adults are as equally ambitious and balanced as Natalie too, so.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  What's your favorite memory of Natalie growing up or one that you fondly look back on?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  My strongest memory of Natalie was always just asking her, where are we going next, Jay? Because she was the leader. I just followed her. It was hard for me to keep up with her as her parent because she made the decisions. I was just kind of like there to, okay, what are we going to do now? Like if she had set her sight on a goal and she was like, I'm going to do this. I was like, okay. I mean, so that's, that was Natalie. I mean, she, it was just about really if I could keep up with her. And I think that was what was so unique about her. But you know, the light side too, her friends called her Hootie. And so I thought, so I knew she had that fun side to her, but I didn't get to see it as much as her friends did, of course.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I remember one instance, I had to take her, her lunch. She was in the, she was in junior high. I think she must have been in, she could have been in 10th grade, maybe by then high school 10th grade. And I went to the cafeteria and I was almost shy. Like I didn't really want to go in, you know, call her name to have her mother come bring her lunch. Because I was also a teacher at a school, the same school, Mountain Brook School, right down the street from her. And when I opened the door, the kids in the cafeteria yelled, Hootie, your mom's here. And the whole cafeteria and I was like about melted because I thought she's going to kill me. But you know, that, I just thought that was great, you know? So she, so I knew she had a lighter side when they all yelled, Hootie, your mom's here.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  That's so beautiful to hear. I mean, when we were watching the documentary in 2005, after graduating, she's going on a celebratory trip to Aruba. What do you remember about saying goodbye to her when she was leaving? You called it a rite of passage in the documentary. And yeah, what, what was your thoughts at that time?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  My thoughts at that time were she deserves it. She's earned it. Like I said, she'd had a full ride to the University of Alabama. And I thought, why not? Okay. So we were mostly concerned with the right bikini, the right sunscreen, the right sundress. We were mostly concerned with that than anything else. It was just fun. Everything was picking out the outfits to go and all the frenzy that goes with that. Making sure that, of course, she had to make sure she had her passport. And so everything was just building like, just go have fun, rite of passage. You've earned it. And there were no other thoughts than just excitement.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  And I think that was the common thread throughout the entire 150-something classmates. It was, let's go and have a great weekend and then begin our lives in college. So no feelings other than excitement and just making sure, like I said, from the bathing suit to the outfits, that was it.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. When I was watching you say that and the documentary as well, I was remembering my trip that I did after graduating high school as well. And me and my friends, about 20 of us, went to Spain. And that was very common if you grew up in London.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Usually went somewhere in Europe as well. And I was thinking back to that moment and going on that trip. And it was exactly that. We were excited. There were a group of 20 of us, guys and girls, and we were really looking forward to it.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  We couldn't wait to celebrate and be there. And so I can only imagine those same, same emotions and feelings that you were having. Of course, when she gets to Aruba, you find out when she's meant to be coming on the way home, that she didn't actually make it to the airport.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  And we hear you in the documentary say, wait, that's, that's not like Natalie. That's, she's on time, she's, she doesn't miss things. What went through your mind at that time? You've gone from this celebratory, she deserves it, you're excited for her. What's your feeling when you get this call?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  When I got the call, it was immediate sheer panic and trepidation feelings. I knew because Natalie, she might be early for something, but she was never late for anything. And she was such a role model student. So I knew one of two things instantly. When the trip organizer said that Natalie's missing and didn't show up at the airport. I said, one, she's either been kidnapped or she's been murdered. I knew it was one or the other. There were no other options than kidnapped or, or death. Nothing. No, that was it.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I was leaning heavily on the kidnapped, of course. But I knew it was, I knew instantly there was a daunting task ahead. Had no idea to the depth it was, but I knew it was bad. Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 00

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• 11:10Speaker 00

  But that doesn't seem to be where your mind went at all. Where did your mind and heart go in that moment?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  I think my mind went into sheer,

• 11:21Speaker 01

  just sheer fight. And it was, honestly, Jay, it was as if I could have eaten bullets with my teeth. It was that kind of grit that came over me. And I just knew that I had to get to that island and I had to be at that island today. And I started, it was holiday, it was Memorial Day. So, or yeah, it was Memorial Day, right? Or day after, sorry. It was Memorial Day, the day after we got the call. Yeah. And I was having trouble, you know, getting someone because I wanted a pilot to take me to Aruba. And in my mind, Jay, I'd never been on a jet, a private jet before.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  So I was just thinking like, just like a Beechcraft or a Alora, it's just a, you know, just a, just a, somebody who's a private pilot to take me over there. Well, everybody that we were calling, you know, had, there's a bottle to throttle and it'd been after a holiday and none of the pilots that we knew had had that time lapse between bottle to throttle. I don't know how I knew, but I just knew I had to get there immediately. And just went into that, I just went into hyper-focus uh mode where I saw nothing other than the path ahead.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  And just, I could have, just like I said, a laser beam. I don't know how it came over me. I mean, God must have taken control on life because

• 12:56Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't do that on my own, Jay. I know I can't. That's, never had to do anything like that before. So there'd be no skill set whatsoever.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  So just went into hyper-focused mode and urgency and just push, push, push. And I can't even remember being in the backseat of the car when I got the call from the chaperone that, that said Natalie was missing and the driver of it, Linda, girlfriend of mine, I just didn't feel like she was driving fast enough. And I was yelling at her to get out and let me take the wheel, you know, and I'm driving 120 miles down interstate because we were right outside of Memphis. So I just left our family lake home in Hot Springs. And we still had probably about, probably from Memphis, we still had probably about three hours to make the drive.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  But I just knew I had to get there quickly. And in the same time, I had people like Matt, my son, and another uh, one of the ladies that was with me, Marilyn, that was with me, her son, they began calling Aruba, trying to make connections to consulates, embassies, uh, the local police department in Aruba. So everybody was really working hard. Because I can remember I was driving this rental car and had a sheet of paper and a pencil. And I'm driving like 120 miles an hour and I'm writing down names, Aruban police officials or embassy, you know, embassies there and

• 14:30Speaker 01

  where they were in Curacao and, and driving. So it was just so hyper-focused is the only thing I can think of. I couldn't see anything else.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  And before this call, what did your day to day look like at the time?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  It was three women with no husbands with us, no children with us. We were on vacation. We'd been at my lake house and our husbands and children, Matt was with, he was tucked away on a fun trip. And Natalie was tucked away in Aruba, I thought, on a fun trip. Husband at the time, they were all hunting. So it was just,

• 15:02Speaker 01

  it was just three girls having a good time. We'd left my lake house, we'd made stops and just meandering home.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  And were you working at that time as well?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the very last um, closing out of my school job.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  It seems as though the energy that you felt, this kind of grit, this courage, this, this strength to go and figure out what was going on, as you said, it came from God. But where did this gear come from? Because it wasn't a gear that you were used to using on a daily basis.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  The gear that I was coming out of, I was a pediatric speech pathologist for the Mountain Brook Babies. I did three and four and five-year-olds. That's all I did is I played Candy Land and Chutes and Ladders, Jay, on the floor. That's all I did, you know, with the kids and speech pathology work. So my life was very simple and fun. I mean, that's all I did, is games, you know, with children. I had babies for years. So

• 16:07Speaker 01

  never shifted into any kind of gear like that. Uh, no.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  When you finally get to Aruba,

• 16:16Speaker 00

  talk to me about how you, where did you even start? Because I feel like when you get a call like that, like you're saying, your son's calling up consulates, you're trying to have friends call up details of officials, but it feels like quite a overwhelming task to turn up somewhere and have to figure out where your daughter went and what happened.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Talk to me about how you even started.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Well, our, our first step was we had a wonderful friend, family friend from Mountain Brook that had a jet and said he could make it available for us. He was able to find a pilot and a co-pilot to take us down there and God bless him. I don't know if he'd want me to say his name or not, but just a businessman. And um, so once we had the jet ready and we all took off, only thing I grabbed was Natalie's senior portrait. That's the only thing I grabbed because I felt like I needed to maybe need to show them who's missing, right? And um, we were just taking off and I don't know, Jay, if it had to do with the time of oh five.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  I'd have to ask my son about it. I don't know. He's, he's a commercial pilot. But I still had cellphone communication and I, we were in the air. I don't know how far we were in the air, but I still had cellphone communication with some of the boys from home. They were my brother-in-laws at the time, his sons. He had a set of twins that were there on the trip with Natalie. So one of the twins was relaying to me information about the person that Natalie was last seen with. He knew part of his name, but there wasn't a sense of huge concern

• 18:02Speaker 01

  because this guy had spent the weekend with the classmates, just kind of placing himself with them, making himself one of them, told them that he was also 18, did not live in Aruba. I'm just here like you guys, having a good time on a senior, you know, on a trip. So they just kind of, he infiltrated the pack is what he did. So he just kind of needled his way into that pack of Mountain Brook kids. So I still was a little bit, I'd only had, and I think this is a good part to say it because you kind of alluded to it, but only had one weird kind of moment of trepidation or something I've never had before.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Um, our lake house that we had just left, um, we used to have like 30 kids there all the time. It's where the, it had nieces and so it was the lake house, the rentals home was where everyone came to just bring a sleeping bag or a blanket and everybody just piled in. So they were, my nieces were older. They were probably like 22. Natalie was 18 and they're a few years older than Natalie. And they're friends and guys, but there was a, a huggy and I, I'd have to go back and look, Jay, but it, I don't, I thought it said Carlos and Charlies on it. It's either, it was Senor Frogs and Carlos and Charlies. But I remember I went back upstairs to the lake house. Everybody was all locked and loaded.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And I'd forgotten something on the table. And I remember I ran back up in our family lake home and there was a huggy sitting on the table. And I remember picking up the huggy and it was almost as if it was searing. It was almost like the huggy was searing into me and I could like reverberating back or reverberating back and forth. And I was like, it felt uh, not good. And I just set it down and I'd never felt any, I've never felt anything like that before, ever. Set it down, grabbed my purse or whatever I left and was gone. Okay. So with that being said, when I get this call, as I said, from one of the twins, my brother-in-law's children,

• 20:13Speaker 01

  I wasn't super on high alert. I was just trying to listen to everything he said. But we were able, before I lost communication, I was able to get part of his name, last location seen and the last car she was last seen getting into. So that's a lot of information. I had the person, I had the vehicle and I had a little bit of information about the person, not the full name, but I had part of the name. I can't remember if I had the urine or it was just part of the name.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  So I felt like, okay, lost communication.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  And let's, let's travel. I was very quiet. I didn't want anyone to talk to me. I didn't want anyone to give me any, I didn't need any sympathy. I didn't want anything. Nobody speak to me because I was already in my, I had buried myself. My brain was not available for anybody else. Couldn't, no. So I sat in the back of the jet and didn't say a word to anyone the whole trip. But that, probably that next feeling of the daunting task, like you said, and how was I going to do this? I think everything came in full focus when we went to that. It's a fixed based operation where you bring in a private jet. And they had a homeland security agent there when we got off the plane.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  And I remember going up to the homeland security agent and we were, there was a plane load of like six or seven men and myself and one of the chip organizers, the one that called me. And that my daughter is missing and we're pleading and the homeland security agent never changed the position, the stance. There was nothing, Jay. It was just flat. And I thought, wow. And as we're pleading our case to this homeland security agent, three Arubin air handlers, they were fabulous. It was Claudio, Eldredth and Alberto overheard our conversation. So they just kind of stand by the radio to see to be, if they hear of a private jet come in, that's what they do.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  They're Arubin, they're air handlers. So they just picked up the call, didn't know if we needed any transportation, but they were there. So they were kind of in the background, just, you know, you just kind of wait to see if the people coming in are going to need transportation. And they heard us. They did not know anything about this yet. No one. I mean, Claudio and Eldredth and Alberto did not know who we were. They knew nothing. But they picked up on the conversation and came up and asked us if we needed help, if we needed a van. And they had a big white conversion van that we were able to load up in. And that is where the search began.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Soon as I left that Arubin airport and got in the back of that van with those three Arubin air handlers, that's when it all began.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  It's interesting to hear that you said you just wanted to be by yourself.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Because were you in your mind, just mapping and planning how you were going to figure this out? Or were you kind of managing your emotions and feelings and all the extremes that naturally would go through a mother's mind? What did you need that space for and silence for?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  I didn't want anyone to give me any sympathy and they were, I could tell that they might be more, I could tell.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Why didn't you want any?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Because I was maxed out and I couldn't take anybody that needed me anymore than I already needed myself. Couldn't take it. So I didn't want anybody. Yeah, yeah. You just have to lock yourself down and I couldn't take on anybody. I didn't want anyone to say anything like they're concerned, they're worried, I'm sorry, oh my gosh. No, I allowed no communication. Because like I said, I was already pretty needy and I wasn't going to take on anyone else's knees. I couldn't do it, Jay. A lot, that was it.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  Now that, that's, that's very useful to understand and recognizing the fact that you could even recognize what you needed in that moment and you were able to protect yourself.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Is, is really remarkable. You said you had three details, what you needed, which was kind of part of the name, the last car, the last place seen. How did you track either of those down? Did you go straight to the police? Did you like, what was the approach when you got in that van with the airport handlers?

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Um, we went straight to the last place that Natalie was seen. We went straight to Carlos and Charlie's. We stopped by there. You know, there's a lot of little details along the way, but for the most part, you know, we picked up, we had to pick up another person, Charles Cruz, because we needed, we still needed a little bit more room than what the van could accommodate. I can't remember because we had the pilot and the copilot too. We had us all. And picked up another person. He was the island cellphone owner. So he owned the SATAR. That was their only wireless communication. So we picked him up. Thought that would be very helpful and he was willing to do so.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  And we went there, didn't really, just kind of went there. I think your, your gut is just to go back to the last place that you know your loved one was seen. And that was it. And then really didn't accomplish anything there. And then we went on to the Holiday Inn Hotel. And that was time to get in front of the night manager at the Holiday Inn Hotel. Cause that's where Natalie had stayed. And just to see if anyone there on duty could help us with part of this name that we had. And also I needed them to start making copies of Natalie's senior portrait because I wanted to have that to pass out to pass out. I wanted to pass it to the police so they could know, I wanted the police to know

• 26:16Speaker 01

  what she looked like because they're going to be looking for her, right?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  And as we're telling, pleading our case and trying to find Brenda was the hotel night manager. And as I was saying part of his name, she knew immediately who he was. She said, why, exactly. I know. That's your Ron Vander Sloot. He's good looking, looks like a Dutch marine and he likes to prey upon young female tourist. And I'm thinking, oh, wow, we're in trouble. He's what? You know, yeah, tall, good looking, looks like a Dutch marine. But he likes to prey upon young female tourist. That's what she said. She knew. She already knew he's a predator. Yeah. Yeah. So

• 27:05Speaker 01

  that was not good information. So from there, the handlers, we all just kind of split to divide and conquer. So one handler took a group to the beach to start hitting up beach bombs to see if they could, you know, had seen anything or heard anything from that night. Another handler took a group to go find, since they had the name, they went to find his home. And one of the handlers stayed with Jug and I, husband at the time to go, we, the hotel manager at the Holiday Inn was terrific. And let us go upstairs to the private security room where they have all the screens and TV monitors of the casino activity

• 27:49Speaker 01

  to see if we could spot Natalie and Jaron at the casino table, because that's where, I can say, I think it was one of Jug's nephews that had told us that he played poker with him. Many, you know, they'd been at the Texas Hold'em table together. So everybody kind of had a unique role. So as all three of us are doing these different avenues, um, we finally spot, and I'm on the phone with one of Jug's nephews and they're like, it's probably one o'clock now, maybe, 1:00 AM. And we spot them on video at the Texas Hold'em table. So I at least now had a full name.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I had a visual of him. I got to see him on the camera. And I, Jug and I are coming down the stairs from the security room. And then Alberto and Claudio come flying up the stairs because they also now had an address. So they had an address. We had a name. They had a license plate of the car, the gray Honda. And we were ready to go. So we said, we got him. We've got who is responsible. Got the name. We have the address. We have license plate. So we all load up and we go to the police station.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  At this point, it feels like you're doing all the investigating and like connecting the dots and going to the places. At this point, the police is not involved yet.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Now, the police are not involved yet. They hadn't had any luck. Paul, one of the chaperones, he could not get past the beach authority. So it had never made it to the police. It's just really hard to get to the police in some of these foreign destination areas. They wanted the, they want their kind of like B team out there or whatever. I guess the beach patrol would be the B or C team. I'm not sure as far as legal help from there. And we probably got a pretty good read from the Arubin air handlers. You might better see what you can find to take to the police. I'm sure they were very instrumental in that. They were, they were great, Jay. Those three Arubin air handlers.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  And they were just doing that out of the goodness of their heart. There was no.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. No dog in the fight for them. I mean, they, no, they just jumped in. Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  They just saw you in need and your family and wow.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  They were phenomenal. That's why I definitely, yeah, I give them credit. You know, there's some people I can't give credit, but I can give them credit. Then we went to the police station that's, and Boobaly. And so the men from home and a couple of the handlers went in to plead this, to plead this case and tell them what is happening. And it seemed like it took about.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  I don't know, it took about 30 minutes, 25, 30 minutes for the police to finally come out. Two came out slowly and we followed them to 19 Montana, Yaron's address and where one of the handlers had seen the gray Honda that she was last seen getting into parked at this 19 Montana, which is Yaron Van Der Sloot's residence.

• 31:08Speaker 00

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• 33:18Speaker 00

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• 33:58Speaker 00

  That's indeed.com/podcast and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed here. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. I mean, when we see this moment in the documentary and, you know, I'm really hoping that our audience will go and watch this after the interview if they haven't already seen it. You start talking to his father, I believe, first, and you also get to see Yaron for the first time. And you say in that moment that you were, you were convinced he did it, like you were sure that he did it at this point. What was it about that meeting

• 34:39Speaker 00

  and that interaction that first time where you were clear that he was the person that was responsible?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Because Yaron graphically detailed the sexual activity. He engaged with her in the backseat of the car to these men from home. And you can imagine how much of a problem that was. Things were getting very heated, like fights about to break out. I mean, you're, you're sitting there telling fathers? You're telling seven fathers? Or I don't know how many were up there. I don't, I don't, can't remember if it's eight or who knows, but we had to pile all of them, all these men from home who are fathers. And you're telling them, you, they know he was the last person seen with her, both of these boys in that

• 35:25Speaker 01

  car? And then he's telling them that? Oh, well, that's it. I mean, just shows. He was, he was an animal then, a monster animal, whichever you want to call him, because that takes a lot of...

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  That's a monster to sit there and admit that in front of them. So you can imagine things were getting really super heated with the police standing there because the police are just standing there saying, don't talk to them that way. You know, you can't, telling the men from home, they can't do things like that. And here he is, giving graphic, extremely sexually explicit graphic detail to explain what he did with her that night in the backseat of the car. Yep. She's falling asleep and waking up, falling asleep and waking up. So yeah, we knew he was involved. Did we know he killed her? No, I couldn't know that, but we knew it was bad.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  It feels like such a strange thing for him to do in that moment, as you're rightly pointing out, like what a...

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  What extremely strange behavior to do that.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Brazen.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I mean, just callous. I don't know what the words are, Jay, but it's a pretty, pretty bold statement.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, in a very negative, in a very shameful, like, you know, not, I can't, I still can't wrap my head around why. And it, and it shows you how hard he is as a person to understand. But his father was somewhat, would you say defending him or kind of, he's kind of in the middle of you too, right? Like Yaron's like coming out of the door and his father's kind of out there talking to you.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Like, is he brokering? Is he, what is he doing?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  I chose to remain in the van. The men from home felt it was best for me not to come up there. I could see it all going down.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  You couldn't hear anything.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  I was getting reports back. So they would, there was one female that I think I said, chaperone, the one that called me. She went with the men and she would come back and report to me. But I stayed in the van with one of the Arubin handlers, just because it was probably a more appropriate place for me to be as the mother. So I was getting, not real time, but I could see them. It was like, you could see it all going down under the, the lights there. There was, there was either a street light or some, but I could see the illumination of them. So I don't know exactly, but I know that it took the police probably 20 minutes to get Paulus to come out of the home. But would think that was the one thing that was

• 37:58Speaker 01

  the most shocking by the time we got there, which hadn't been, didn't take us long, except for the Bubali Police Station, the gray Honda was gone. It was parked inside the Van Der Sloot residence, but by the time we got there, it was gone.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Was this the first time you felt that Natalie might not be coming home? Or were you still hopeful at this moment?

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Well, it's so conflicting when you, if you hear someone describing sexual activities, you're thinking, well, okay, he wouldn't admit to that if he killed her, right?

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Sure. Yeah. Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  So I'm thinking she's, he's placed her somewhere, holding her somewhere or something. You know, I really didn't think, I didn't go straight to murder. I guess, yes, that's it. We always, we were felt like, okay, making some more steps, getting a little bit closer, like you said, yes. And, you know, just kind of the night ended with such a wild chase, following Yaron to the casino to show where he'd been. And that was a bust. You know, we, because Yaron was not there at the home when we got there. It was just the father.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  So the father and Yaron were on the phone together and Yaron was saying, I'm at the Wyndham Hotel. I'm in the back Texas Hold'em room. So we all load up and we rush to the Wyndham. We race back. I'm like the first one back to the Texas Hold'em room. And there's no, he's not there. And then all of a sudden, we see the father standing at the entrance of the hotel Wyndham saying, nope, he's at the other hotel. So it was just a wild goose chase that we were on. So we were constantly loading up, running to the next place that Yaron is supposedly on the phone with his father, telling him where he is. So we're not sure what that was all about, Jay. I really still don't know, even this many years later, unless they were doing something with Nat. I don't

• 39:47Speaker 01

  know, Jay. I don't know. Cleaning up? I don't know. I don't know. So it just, the night ended with finally catching up with Yaron. And Yaron was so adamant about where he dropped her off. And he said, I took her to the Holiday Inn Hotel.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Deepak and Satish, we dropped her off. She got out of the car. She stumbled, she hit her head and two security guards came to help her up. And she went into the hotel lobby. So we thought, okay, that's it. She went into the lobby. And that was how that night ended. We're about to leave and Yaron, I'm out by myself with Charles Cruz, the island seitar owner. And Yaron came out ahead of any of the men from home or the other handlers. And he came to me at the back door, passenger side door of the, um, of the car. I was sitting in the backseat of Charles Cruz's car. And I had Nellie Senior portrait.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  And that's when Yaron did this hitting of his chest and saying, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? Like, I said, give her back. I want my daughter back. And he goes, oh, he just kept hitting his chest and saying, what do you want me to do? And you know what, Jay? In hindsight, it was. What do you want me to do? It's too late. I've already killed her. That's it. I mean, he'd already done it. So that's why he was so pounding his chest, saying, what do you want me to do about it? He just bludgeoned her to death 24 hours ago. So yeah, that's pretty shocking. That's a monster.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it must be so much to, as I was watching the documentary as well, and you're speaking about these events. And today I'm learning even more detail. And I can't imagine what it feels like to have to go back to that moment and think about what you knew in that moment. And then look at it back from the last two decades of time that you've had to reflect on those moments and know what you know now for certain.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  I know.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  It feels emotionally just exhausting.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  And there's so many times like that to where, that's why, to hear him, I mean, literally, Jay, he just vomited up what he did. It took him 18 years to vomit it up. But when he did, it was like, everything that I had experienced and everything that I had heard, it all made sense. Every single part of it cross referenced. So that's why we knew. That's why we knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, let alone every, I mean, you know, all the legal work that went on to the proffer and to getting his confession. But yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Did you feel the Aruban police in those early days was doing everything they possibly could to figure this out?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Aruba has one industry, crop tourism. Tourist, that's, that's what they grow. That's their crop. So they would not want this to be a black mark on the island. To have a murder of a tourist on their island was not going to be good. Was not going to be good. There's no way we would have ever gotten, even if Yaron would have confessed to them, we wouldn't have known it, Jay, because they were never, you know, the Minister of Tourism, the Chief of Police, they were so embedded. And it was not going to happen. It was, it was never going to happen. No matter what we did.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  They were protecting their money. I mean, that's how they, that's all Aruba's got. They've got tourists, that's it. Well, they, you know, got their money laundering and sex trafficking and drug, they're huge trampoline for drugs. Of course, you know that. I mean, that's all they are, is a trampoline for drug trafficking. So they, um, yeah, they weren't going to. They weren't going to.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. When did you start to notice that it almost felt like the global attention Natalie's case started to get? That the media attention was putting pressure onto the Aruban Police Department and also onto the Aruban people? When did you start to notice that, oh, this, the world's taking this very seriously?

• 44:08Speaker 01

  I think the more, um, potential suspects, I shouldn't call them suspects, but the more potential people that were, uh, that they were, um, coming in for questioning and arresting, it was almost like a revolving door. It was, there was, the list was endless. So it, it just made them start,

• 44:36Speaker 01

  made us look like they were doing something, but they were really going every, after everybody but the one person. And the attention was what kept traction in the investigation. So, you know, the media was a tool to get them to move, to investigate. And they kept the pressure on, they kept the spotlight on, which was huge.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, we see you being public and being interviewed and all these clips in the documentary of you being live on television and trying to, you know, raise awareness and talk about what's going on. That can't have been easy. And we see you in those moments breaking down extremely emotional. Like, you know, you're right in the middle of this case. Like, talk to me about how difficult that was at the same. It's almost like you've got to do it because you know this is what's going to keep the spotlight on the case. But of course, you're living through it at the same time. Talk to me about that experience for you.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  I think I was so grateful, Jay, that the media was concerned and they were feeling and seeing what we were. It was just witnessing injustice. And they could see the main person walking around and taunting them and everyone. So I feel like I just learned quickly that if somebody asked me to do an interview, I just said yes. I mean, there was just no other option because I realized the media really was actually not being treated any more fairly than I was. I mean, I think they had a hard time too, you know, dealing with them and getting information.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  So I thought, if they're asking, I'm, I'm interviewing. I'm, I'm going to do it. And I can remember doing like seven interviews, seven in the morning and seven at night. I mean, I would start at 4:00 AM and go do hits on balconies, search during the day, close it out at night. I would do seven hits at night. So I'd be doing like 14 hits a day, like a machine gun, you know? Just point, just, you know, yeah, point and shoot, point and shoot. Like, it was so rapid fire, you know? I, I would just walk in and they'd be all nervous. They'd say, because I'd be going from balcony to balcony or hotel.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  They say, you've got 10 seconds till live. And I thought, that's a lot of time. To me, I was like, 10 seconds? Oh, we're good. It seemed like a long time. I was like, okay, let's go. I don't know, Jay, because that's not me. You know, so it was God took over. He took over. So those are not my words either, Jay. I mean, it had to have been God speaking through me. Even my son at the time said, ask my husband at the time, my ex-husband, and said, have you ever heard? Have you ever heard? I think he's, I think my husband said, have you ever heard your mother talk like that? And he goes, no, no. It must be God. And my son said, it must be God talking through my mother because he knew me. That's not, that wasn't me, Jay.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  Were you already a person of faith at the time? Was that a big part of your life?

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah. Of course, I grew up with, you know, the Baptist grandmother and the Methodist parents. So if the church doors were open, we were there. Um, they were singing in the choir for 40 years. So yeah, she dragged all us kids. We went to Sunday school and church. We were raised in the church. So yeah, it was a big, my parents were huge. You don't miss that door. That door is open, you're there. Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  What was your relationship with God like at that moment? When you're living through the most horrific thing a parent can go through?

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, after this happened with Natalie, yeah. It's funny because you know how you hear these cliche things as you're growing up? I don't, you know, I had one grandmother that was like Baptist, hellfire damnation. My mother was God is good. You know, every religion has, you know, it's all the same. And, um, my grandmother used to always say, take your burdens and lay them at the cross. And I was like, I thought that was the silliest thing to us. Take your burdens and lay them at the cross. Like, and then, then what? Then what? When then what are you going to do? You know? So, um, with that being said, that's where, that was the turning point and how I was able to work Natalie's case.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  And I was able to shift the burden of not being able to care for Natalie right now to God. Because that burden was lifted from me at the Stations of the Cross. Didn't grow up Catholic. I didn't know, I wasn't familiar with the Stations of the Cross and the understanding of the depiction of Jesus walked his crucifixion. And I didn't grow up with that because I was Methodist. We just, you know, unfortunately, I wish I would have, but I didn't. We just, not something that was talked about. So that's where that faith came in and it was, you know, God first and Natalie were my driving forces. So God, Natalie and faith were my driving forces.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  And it was when really, Jay, honestly, I could feel the physical burden, the weight that was seated and situated on my shoulder lift from me that morning. It was on day four when I was done, you know, I hadn't eaten, slept or bathed in four days. Is that's pretty wicked. Yeah, it was getting wicked. I was about gone. So, but once I got that, I came back into the hotel and people said, where have you been? You look different. And I said, yeah, probably threw something out. I said, we're going to work. That was what my grandmother said. So I laid my burdens at the cross, like then this God's turn. You gotta take care of her because I gotta go to work. So I went to work. That's what I did. I worked it, Jay.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  When you're on and the Cowboy Brothers finally got arrested, did you feel like you were finally going to get answers?

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  And then what it feel, what did it feel like when they were released just months later?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was crushing. It, you know, it was such a roller coaster. It was just moments of excitement. It's about time. It still felt like, you know, it was 10 days too long, but it was good. It was like, finally, finally they're gonna go get these men and do what should have been done from day one that we took him to the Vander, that we took ourselves to the Vander Sloot home. So it was very, you know, much just elated that we are now having the police, you know, there, we finally got their attention and they arrested Jaron and now they're gonna get me my answers I want. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. It's time getting answers.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  As quickly as we think that though, Jay, the prison cell, prison jail cell opened.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Why was that?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  It's catch and release, catch and release, catch and release. I think it, it was almost just a show because the pressure of the media and the public, I think they just had to do it. They would catch him, release him, catch these people and release them. Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 00

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• 52:34Speaker 00

  The American media was putting pressure on the Aruban Police Department and everything else. And then you've got, you, you called the Cowboy Brothers criminals too.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Which again, put pressure on the Aruban people. And then they started to feel kind of defensive about their people and what was going on on their turf. And it almost felt like you had to put this pressure on in order to get answers because otherwise it just felt like they weren't really, they felt like they were doing the best they could, but it feels like they weren't moving fast enough for the pace you were moving at at all.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  No. And behind the scenes, we were finding out things like timelines and we knew that the security card, security guards could not even have been potential suspects and the police knew it too. So we were starting to learn things that were seemingly like corruption. We were starting to think, okay, this is not just being inept or the inability to have the investigative tools. It was starting to feel like corruption. So that was presenting itself and we felt like, yeah, it was almost as if it were a

• 53:51Speaker 01

  show or a presentation to look like we're doing something, but we're really not going to get anywhere with it.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  Wow. And, and I believe one of those things you found out was also that Yaron's father was a judge in training, right?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Yes. We found out that he was also really good friends with Van der Straten, the chief of police. So it was starting to feel, yeah, it's starting to not feel right. Too connected, embedded, no checks and balances in place. And they were going to take care of their island. So we were really getting that message loud and clear.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. What's interesting is the American media was putting pressure onto them, but then the media started almost to shift the narrative to blaming Natalie's friends in that they should have been there for her. They should have figured it out. They should have helped her. We see some of the interviews with Natalie's friends in the documentary as well. Talk to me about what that felt like, because that's still not solving the problem. I like pointing blame at people who weren't there and obviously weren't the last people. She was weird.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:01Speaker 00

  But talk to me how that felt when you're having all this noise. I can't believe you're doing 14 hits a day, doing all of these interviews. There's one media narrative against the Aruban Police Department. There's the narrative of just what's happening in reality. And then there's this narrative about Natalie and her friends.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  The media and I were actually being treated the same, no information. And I felt like sometimes if there's no information, you're going to create. If there's nothing to feed the story, you're going to have to create something to feed the beast, right? It's just the nature of it. And so there was this downtime where none of us were getting information. The media was not getting information. I wasn't. So it's kind of like, okay, I, I just kind of shift a little. And this is 20 years ago. We really, Natalie's story taught us a lot. We love, we know a lot more now than we did

• 55:57Speaker 01

  then. And I think it was just the downtime where they were unfairly blamed, but I don't, I, I see why because you're still trying to keep this story. So if we're, if it's not, if it's not Yaron, if it's not these suspects, that they're all being released and the Aruban police are saying they don't have anything else. Well, then it was just sort of the opening, I think. I don't think that they would have never been unfairly blamed if the Aruban police had done what they were supposed to do. So I do think it had to do

• 56:38Speaker 01

  with that bit of downtime. And plus, we realize what we've learned, Natalie taught us and taught the world how to travel safer and how to travel when you travel with your friends, you all leave together at the end of the night. We didn't have any of those personal safety, travel safety messages that we shared with our young adults in 2005, because the only thing they'd heard probably up until then was stranger danger, right? And well, then what do you tell an 18 year old? It's kind of hard. The stranger danger is not going to work anymore. Right? So, and they're at that, have a sense of complacency about their

• 57:18Speaker 01

  own status and, you know, the threshold of adulthood and, and it's hard to tell them anything. So the only way you can tell them is show them a very compelling and horrific story, something that could happen when you don't all leave together at the end of the night. So I feel like, like I said, Natalie's taught us a lot and I know that through Natalie's story, she has saved countless lives because they've been able to learn either from their aunt or their uncle or their mother or, you know, because these kiddos now that were Natalie's, they're 40 year old adults. So they have this new generation of children.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  So I think Natalie's story was able to be passed down to at least one generation, Jay. But you know, what worries me is I hate for Natalie's story to not capture another generation because personal safety doesn't have a shelf life. So that was always, you know, so I know that's a long answer, but

• 58:20Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  We, um, we've learned a lot. Natalie taught us how to travel, you know, more safely. So blaming the friends at the time, I always try to remind people, it wasn't, they just watched her get into a car with somebody that she'd never seen. They'd been, like I said, he'd placed himself among them, infiltrated the group. The taxis in Aruba tragically are were unmarked and unidentifiable then. There was no identification of a taxi. They all looked the same. They were just regular street cars. So that's a killer. So you don't know

• 58:57Speaker 01

  your, you don't know. So none, none of the kids would have known that that's not a taxi. I mean, they're not identifiable.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  We've learned a lot since then.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and also it's almost feels, I mean, we were talking about this as a team before the interview and just how there are so many of us that at young ages have been in precarious situations and maybe been lucky or put ourselves in difficult situations and been lucky or done something pretty reckless and been lucky. And you always live with the belief that this doesn't happen to you.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  And, and especially when you're young.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  The truth is that the one time it happens, it's soul destroying and heartbreaking for everyone involved, including the individual. But we all walk around believing that we're the exception and these things don't happen to us or that we're being mindful enough or safe enough or whatever it may be. And so I think it is really important, what you're saying, that what we can learn from what happened.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  Rather than pointing the finger at

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  you know, friends and everything else.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  And I always tell young adults, I mean, their personal safety is up to them. It's not up to your friends. It's up to you though. It's up to you to make a plan with your friends that you're all going to leave together. You gotta have a wingman, you know, even, I mean, I've done countless stories where young males have been murdered in foreign destinations. So I've helped a lot of families. So it's not unique to females. So it can, it happened to our, you know, happens to our young males as well, these 18 year old boys. And no one's immune. I mean, when evil comes in and you think about it, Yaron really did a, he did a great job. Just think he placed himself right there with him, sat at

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  the Texas Hold'em table all weekend. You know, you began to feel like he's one of you. Like he's your kind. He's, he's a, he's a fine dude, you know, he's really nice, friendly, good looking, you know, who's going to think he's a killer?

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't have that thought.

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  When you went back to Alabama, what did that look like for you? How did that shift your life at that moment when they've been released again? You're not sure where this is going. You go back to Alabama, you're trying to, what did, what did your life look like? What was your day to day like then?

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  So on June 10th, when I had made a pledge and I made a pledge to the FBI, the Aruba, anybody I could, that, that I would take Natalie's story to, it was June 10th, and I would take Natalie's story to every high school, college podium on a wing and a prayer, if they would just let me come and deliver a personal safety, travel safety message to them, because I wanted to prevent this tragedy from happening to others. It's a nightmare. So it was when I did get back in Alabama, I stayed true to my pledge that I made on June 10th. And I hit the airwaves, Jay, wing and a prayer, lived out of a travel size carry on suitcase.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  For almost two years, I never, that little bitty suitcase, Jay, I was, I was a crazy person. Hit it, hit it. I mean, I lived in airports, I mean, I hit it, Jay. I just was determined, though, I was going to reach as many young adults as I could, because I didn't want this to happen to their families. So I did that. I was busy, busy, and I was pulling Aruba down with me at every high school. Because, you know, I had a two fold, right? Save the world, save the kids, and destroy Aruba. Because I was just angry, I was bitter. Yeah, I mean, I was, why not be angry? You would be angry, because they released the suspects on the cloak of Hurricane Katrina,

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  when the United States is being devastated. So they took US when it was down in its worst catastrophic event, where people are suffering and dying, and they released the criminals. You know why? Because they said, well, the US is too busy with Hurricane Katrina. So this is the time. They opened the jail cells, let them go. They just turned them loose like dogs on the road. That's what they did. So I was angry. When I left that airport in Aruba, I, well, I was even, I was completely filled up with fuel, Jay. I was ready to go to save, I mean, I was gonna save the, save the kids.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  And that's what I did.

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  Did you ever take any time out for yourself to even process what was going on? Or were you just on a mission and out there, like you said, for those two years with that backpack? Did you ever have?

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  I was on a mission. But you know, Jay, when I think about it, and I've listened to a lot of your podcasts, and you talk about, you know, healing and healing paths. And honestly, Jay, I, I was on a healing path and didn't even know it. Because when you're making those steps, I feel like that healing path was laid before me, and I just got on it, and I just kept taking one foot forward, putting one foot down, and the next one to follow. Because that probably was the time for myself. That was my, that was my healing. That was part of my healing journey. It began with the mission of outreach.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  And I feel like we all have those healing paths laid before us. It's just hard for us to get up and get on them. But if you just have the faith, and I always say, the capacity of faith leads us through the most difficult times. It does. And that capacity of faith, if we'll let it lead us through it. And that's what I was feeling, and, and that the human spirit can accomplish anything with that determination. So I felt like, you know, I was on that path. And from the beginning, you know, I was, I was determined by hope.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  I was driven by love for Natalie, and I was acting on my faith that I would get answers, and that I would just keep on this mission long enough. So I think for me, that was my healing time. I know that sounds crazy, but I think that was my healing time, not beating idle with myself, but trying to help others, that outreach and that, yeah, that was it.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, you were turning your pain into purpose, into helping others and using it as service. And I think, I mean, there's so many studies to back that up. It's, it's not, you know, crazy or, or wrong in any way. There's so many studies that show that when we're choosing to serve others and help others, it reduces the pain that we're carrying.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  And so it's a very real healing path.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  It's just not the one that we almost always go to, because it feels like a lot of work and effort, which is why it's so admirable and remarkable in your journey, that that was your instant mission, that you were able to, in the height of your pain, go out there to help other people. That requires a different level of strength to do it as urgently as you did. It's, it's really remarkable. It's really special.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  And it saved my life. I, and I hope I, you know, reached a lot of lives, you know? And I always said, Jay, only if I reach one life, if I make a difference in one other person, then that's well worth everything that I went through.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  At that point, did you feel that your mission became helping other people, and you were never going to figure out what happened with Natalie? Did you feel like, I have to move on from that? And I'm gonna go and help everyone else now, but I'll never know?

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Well, I actually had a two fold mission. So I was in my mind, helping others, saving others' lives and delivering these messages. But I was dragging Aruba with me. I was hammering them, Jay.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  I just couldn't hammer them hard enough. And I hate to say that, but it's the truth. Because what we experienced was not what any parent should experience from a foreign destination that takes your money, that wants to take your dollars, but they don't want to help you in a horrific, you know, devastating event. So I was, that two fold. I was going to beat Aruba in the ground, because they deserved it. I deserved it, I shouldn't say that, Jay, but it was the truth. They, they needed to know. And I, because I was angry, I was, I was, I think that's normal.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is very normal.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  I think I was channeling that anger into reaching others.

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Were you shocked when Yaron got in touch in 2010 and offered $250,000 to tell you where Natalie's remains were?

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, was I shocked? Uh, I don't, you know, Jay, I just think I said, I'm in. I'm in.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  But at that point, where were you in your, in your journey of knowing where Natalie was? Like?

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  So 2010, it was.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  Since five years after.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was becoming a little bit quieter in the pounding of the podium. I think I had released a lot of that anger, and, and because I was able to do good work, I felt like, so it was all kind of releasing, and those cathartic experiences, I guess, that you have when you're purging all this anger. And, um, so a pretty quiet place. It was funny, I was in New York when I got the call. I was in New York, I think I had done, I'd been invited to do a talk show, and I don't remember if it was, I can't remember who it was. And, um, but I had been invited or, or, to, yeah, to, to do one of the talk shows.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  And I remember my girlfriends came with me, we all came to New York. And, um, and then I got the call, I got the call from Greta. And so Greta had said, you know, Yaron wants to know if the reward money is still in play. Look, Jay, hell no, the $250,000 was, it's not like it was magic, no. You know, that was a pledge, that money was never delivered to me. That was two businessmen, two businessmen. Ross Perot did the million dollars for her alive. And another businessman did the two, pled, the 250 for information that led to her whereabouts. So these were business owners and that were, had this money for me, should I find those things?

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  So no, the, the money was not like sitting there, but I just said, yeah, I've got it. I mean, why not lie, right? So I just said, yeah, I've got it, let's do it, you know? Said, yeah, money's still there. No, the money was not still there. I mean, but what do you do? Fight fire with fire is what I was thinking. He was, you know, I said, yes, I'm in. Yeah, wasn't shocked at all from Yaron. I thought, let's do it.

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  But you hadn't heard from him in those five years, right? That was the first time.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  No, I had not, but he had been recycling himself in the media a good bit, especially, especially with the Peter De Vries.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Uh, the Dutch reporter that did the surreptitiously, surreptitiously recorded him that Range Rover, that undercover sting, yeah. So he'd been recycling himself a good bit. I think he'd also made some noise or something, and he was in Bangkok for a while. He traveled to Asia.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Because Yaron couldn't let it go. See, the killer always returns to the scene of his crime. He can't stand it. He can't stand to let it go. So they kind of keep regurgitating it. I think they like the attention from it. And I think to him, he thought, well, hadn't been caught yet. But he just couldn't stand it, Jay. He couldn't let it go. I didn't even, I never did any of that media. I didn't, I wasn't responsible for any of that. I was quiet doing my pounding at the podium. I was out on a mission. I wasn't worried about Yaron. I was dragging Aruba and trying to save lives. But Yaron was continuously recycling himself and revisiting the scene of the crime. I don't think they can stand it. They just can't stand it, Jay. They gotta tell somebody.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  I mean, I was shocked when you see the tape in the documentary of him talking to Patrick in the Range Rover. And he's talking about what he did and how he did it. I was shocked that that wasn't enough to bring him in. Like, I couldn't believe that he could pass that off as, oh, I was just trying to impress a friend and show off a little bit. And it was, I was, I was shocked. I was like, gosh, what does it take? Kind of like this whole documentary, when you say it was an emotional roller coaster. When I'm watching it, I'm thinking, God, what does it take?

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  To, to, you know, to get someone to...

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. There again, Aruba didn't want to act on it. They said, no, it's not enough to act on. But remember, they were never going to have this happen. They couldn't have a murderer on their island? No, they weren't gonna do it. So...

• 1:12:38Speaker 00

  When you talk about the extortion, I believe it was your ex-husband who was saying that, he was saying that he thought either, if you give him $250,000 to know where Natalie's remains are, either he will

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  obviously be revealing himself as the person who knows where Natalie went.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  Or you can get him for wire fraud because he's wiring you some money.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:05Speaker 00

  Were you still hopeful at that point?

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so here's how I looked at it, Jay. I looked at it as a win-win. And I know this doesn't sound good to people, but I looked at it, to me, I'm either A, going to have recovery of her remains, which would be a win, Jay. It would put this nightmare to end. And if not, if he's lying, I knew that extortion and wire fraud carried a pretty stiff penalty, 20 years, I think, for each count. I think that'd been 40 years. And I was thinking, okay, it's a win-win. Let's do it. I'm in. So I said, yes, let's go.

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  And again, it's another episode that I want people to see in the documentary of just another lie, another roller coaster moment for you and the family. And I just, it's so painful when you're watching the documentary that you just keep coming up against, like, whether it's the discovery of someone WhatsApping Greta and it's Natalie's blouse supposedly, and it's sent to you. And just there's so many moments in the documentary where I'm heartbroken for you because it feels like you're getting some information and then it's being taken away or you're going to get an answer and then it's being taken away. And then, of course, we discover that Yaron's done this again with a young girl in Peru.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  And now he's actually convicted and going, going to go to jail in Peru. I guess my biggest question, and I want people to see that part in the documentary and to really watch the documentary to see how it all unfolds. My, my big question to you is, how did you have the patience for 18 years to wait for the answers?

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  And why was the answer so important to hear him actually admit what he did?

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  I think with answering your first question is how to, I have the patience. I think, I hope the documentary shows the, the power and the determination of the human spirit. And it can accomplish almost anything. And I felt that as long as I kept true to my mission, seeking answers and acting on faith, as I had talked about, that I would get answers one day. I knew they were there. I knew the answers were there. It was just a matter of getting them. Yes, there were a lot of hurdles to pass along the way. The path was long, but getting justice takes a lot of work. 20 years might not even be that long in the scheme of thing for some law enforcement that do these cases.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  So I felt like I was just gonna keep moving forward, Jay, till I reached my answer. I got, I landed on the island of Aruba wanting answers. And I stayed true to the mission. And 18 years later, finally got the answers I'd been so desperately seeking. And it doesn't sound like good news to hear of your child, Natalie, my daughter, being brutally murdered.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  But it was the answer I had to have because the not knowing for 18 years was more, much more torturous than hearing the answer. I had to know the answer.

• 1:16:15Speaker 00

  Wow, so you're saying that the 18 years of waiting was more torturous than even hearing about the horrific way in which she was murdered?

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yes. It's shocking and it's brutal. As it is, parents have to know. They just need answers. They need to know.

• 1:16:32Speaker 00

  I think when people go through things like this, and I couldn't agree with you more, the documentary shows the undeniable strength of your heart, your character, your unbelievable drive, a mother's love that is unbelievable to witness, honestly. When I'm watching it and getting to meet you today, it's such an honor for me because I was taken aback by just how much you fought when it felt like everything was against you.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  What's your relationship like with forgiveness today? What does it mean to you? What does it, what does that experience feel like?

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  I think forgiveness, to me, is finding a path of gratitude. And that's something I'm still exploring. And I think it's a part of the healing process and being able to express that gratitude to others. And, you know, I was not a lone wolf here. I traveled in a large pack. And I traveled with people, the public. I had millions and millions of prayers that were supporting me for people I didn't even know. I had also in my pack politicians, celebrities, businesses, owners, unfamiliar friends, friends, celebrities. So I embraced all that. I mean, that was my source of strength and they are who sustained me.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  So I wasn't like just a mother on a mission. You know, when you have millions of people praying for you, and that's really what we do as countries, you know, when we hear of devastating losses, we go into prayer for this family to support them. And the family doesn't know that. They are not gonna ever meet you or know who you are, but they will feel those prayers. So I think that's what kept me going. And it just never wanted, I never wanted to, you know, I wanted people to see. It was not just a lone mother. I wasn't a lone wolf. And, you know, I had God in faith first and Natalie. I had Stephanie in front of me too. I had two young girls that had been brutally murdered.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  So God and faith and prayers and sustained me and pulled me through and, and I got the answers I had been so desperately seeking for 18 years.

• 1:18:48Speaker 00

  Beth, what have I not asked you today that you deeply want for people to know? Or that you deeply feel in your heart today that you want to share? You seem so connected to yourself, so connected to God, so connected to being here for a mission and a purpose. What's on your heart and mind that you really want my listeners to hear from you?

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  I really want the listeners to hear two things. I mean, one, of course, is the capacity of faith. And I want them to understand that that capacity of faith, it can, it, it can lead them through and to the, through the most difficult times. It can. And I just want them to know the human spirit is so determined and it's so strong. It can accomplish anything. And I also want them, you know, I'm, I'm hoping my message will inspire. I'm hoping it will leave people feeling victorious to see what the human spirit can accomplish. This wasn't just me.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  You know, this was God, faith, your human spirit. I hope they see that because everyone can be experiencing, whether it's an illness, sudden illness or injury or missing or murdered loved one. We all hurt the same in all of those devastating life events. And I want them to also use my story not only as, and maybe feel some empowerment from it, but it's also a great personal safety message because we can never tell our young adults or age, you know, at any age, you can never have too many reminders of personal safety or too much awareness. So it's a great story to share with others and, you know, feel, so not only personal travel safety,

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  but to feel empowerment or to feel feelings of victorious. I watch every movie out there, every Academy Award winning movie. And I don't care what language it's in, Jay. I don't care if it's Arabic, Dutch, I don't care. It doesn't have to, I don't even have to have subtitles. It's how it makes me feel. And I hope it makes them feel victorious in some sense of empowerment.

• 1:20:50Speaker 00

  Watching it, Beth, I can confirm for you, it felt empowering. It felt heartbreaking. And overall, it felt just

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  an undeniable capturing of human strength. And so I'm moved by you and your presence and moved by your story. I really hope that you feel Natalie got the justice she deserves. And honestly, I'm in awe of you and feel so humbled and grateful we got to do this together. Thank you so much.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jay, for allowing me to share Natalie's story on your platform. I listen to you every morning on the way to work. I'm sorry, I do 15 hours a week. I think you're in my head. So you're phenomenal and thank you so much.

• 1:21:38Speaker 00

  Well, I'm extremely humbled and I can't wait for everyone to see this documentary to protect the people that they love and also realize what's possible with the capacity of faith, which I love that you said that.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  It's a really beautiful reminder. Thank you.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:21:52Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you so much.

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• 1:22:25Speaker 04

  From the studio that brought you WandaVision.

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  I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

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  The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy.

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  That family wasn't real. You sure about that?

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  I had a father called Vision.

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  How is this possible?

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  Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming, only on Disney Plus.