Pod Insights On Purpose with Jay Shetty 3 Ways To Let Go Of Society’s Expectations & Connect With Your Authentic Self About this episode Do the opinions and thoughts of others veer you from the core beliefs you hold for yourself? Is that outside noise taking up too much space in your life? There is a way to connect with your authentic self and drown out the external noise.
In this ON Purpose episode, Jay Shetty sits down with Russel Brand to share tips on letting go of society’s expectations and connecting with your true self.
Train your mind for peace and purpose everyday. Grab a copy of Think Like A Monk, or listen to the audiobook now!
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Transcript 11,076 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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2:01 Jay Shetty? This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised to yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet,
2:45 Jay Shetty? AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. And I think that's often what's missed in finding purpose, that we look to just feel fulfilled ourselves. But actually, that final piece that really creates purpose is, okay, how do I use this to serve other people? And that can apply to anything from comedy through to movies, through to accountancy and law. Like, there's nothing in the world that can't be used to help people.
3:30 Jay Shetty? And I think sometimes we limit. We say, oh, well, you can't help people because you're XYZ, or that career can't help you. That's not true. Everything can be used in the service of others and engaged in that way.
3:47 Jay Shetty? Hey, everyone. I am so excited, I'm buzzing. This is the first ever event in our virtual book tour called Dear 2020: Think Like a Monk. And you joined in. This is super historic for me. If you have a copy of the book, I am so grateful to you right now for being here. Thank you so much for showing up, and I can't wait to share this time with you today. Now, before we get going, I wanted to share with you a letter that I wrote to 2020. Now, I'm sure many of us would have so many things we'd like to say to 2020. Here are a few of the things that I wanted to share. I've never shared this with anyone before. It's exclusive and here for this audience.
4:31 Jay Shetty? In 2020, the world was hit by a deadly pandemic. Difficult to understand by any academic. It could make you cough, loose smell and taste. Gave trouble breathing, bluish lips or face. People felt heaviness and pain in their chest. Human resilience and response was put to the test. First, there was anxiety and then there was confusion. We couldn't hug, handshake or fist bump until a solution. Schools were closed, leagues were cancelled and no one could meet. Social distancing became the new norm. We had to be apart by six feet. We couldn't stand in line outside concerts, but we stood outside stores. Billions were stuck indoors, finishing Netflix and getting bored.
5:16 Jay Shetty? People had to work from home. It was the new normal. We wore sweatpants to work, only the upper half was formal. I'm wearing shorts, by the way. People couldn't travel abroad, so they pursued the journey within. People danced on their roofs and bedrooms without any rhythm. People lost their jobs and started to pursue their passions. People used their passions to serve others and make things happen. We started celebrating heroes like nurses, doctors and those on the front line. Everyone would clap and cheer for them all at one time. It affected people's wealth and their mental health. But then people started taking more care of themselves. They practiced yoga, music and meditation.
5:58 Jay Shetty? They started to support each other all across the nation. People raised money for those in need and gave up their salaries. They danced online with the world and sang on their balconies. No one saw it coming and no one could see it leaving. But people became much more grateful to be breathing. Hundreds of thousands of people died. May they rest in peace. Let's send love to all their loved ones to hope their pain will ease. We deeply understood that our choices affect others. Strangers, brothers, sisters, lovers, fathers and mothers. Old and young, the virus didn't discriminate. Rich and poor, the virus did infiltrate. It showed us we weren't in control and had to be more prepared.
6:44 Jay Shetty? We needed to care more for each other and the planet. We had to be aware. It was a warning like no other. Being apart brought us closer together. We finally found ways to use technology for the better. We became more mindful and started to judge less. We developed kindness and tools for less stress. We led with more love, compassion and empathy. We gave up FOMO, comparison and jealousy. The choices we make now will affect future generations. Our togetherness will be celebrated. Our sacrifice will be recognized. We can choose to show them what we do at tough times. And ask yourself.
7:28 Jay Shetty? When your child or grandchild asks you in 2030, 2040 or 2050, what did you do in 2020? Do the answer that you want to share with them. Now, for the very special moment, I'm so deeply excited to introduce not only our special guest, but a very dear friend. Of course, you already know who it is, Russel Brand, who needs no introduction. But you may think you know Russell, the actor, the comedian, the genius. But that's only a small part of who he truly is. He's also an activist and an amazing thinker in the realms of spirituality, philosophy and life. As some of you may know, Russell and I have been friends for some time
8:10 Jay Shetty? and I'm always so grateful to get to talk with him more and share this meaningful conversation. If you don't already listen to his amazing podcast, Under the Skin, make sure to check it out. And of course, he's a phenomenal author with some incredible books. So without further ado, let's welcome the one and only Russel Brand.
8:31 Speaker 01 Jay.
8:33 Jay Shetty? Hey, Russell, it's so good to see you.
8:35 Speaker 01 It's beautiful to see you and listen to you. You're so compelling and magnetic and I just want to congratulate you off the bat for this wonderful achievement of yours, this incredible book that I've been reading. Thank you for giving me a personal inscription and well done. I wish you every success with this book and I'm very excited to be speaking with you about it.
8:54 Jay Shetty? Oh, thank you so much. And I wanted to say, I was so excited to do this with you in person. I know that's what we'd originally planned. And I want to thank you and your team for making this possible and for you joining us live from London while I'm in LA. And I'm so deeply grateful to you for all your support and mentorship and guidance over the last few years. So, thank you for always being there for me.
9:14 Speaker 01 Thank you. Now, Jay, my function here is to interview you. So I'm going to have to assume control of this situation, even though this is very much your domain and you are commanding it with aplomb, as anyone who loves you, and I count myself among that number, would expect. But without further ado, tell me how you are feeling about the launch of your new book, Think Like A Monk. How are you feeling? Especially something you've been working towards for a long while. How are you feeling, mate?
9:42 Jay Shetty? Absolutely. It's been in the process. So the idea first came to me probably around four years ago. And I started writing the book and preparing for it around nearly two years ago now. And it's been an incredibly amazing week. Like, this is week one. The book came out last Tuesday. And so you're speaking to me literally seven days after that. And I'm just feeling really humbled and grateful at the response. It's been amazing, like, everyone who's just shown up all across the world and, you know, supported and been a part of this launch. It's been phenomenal. So I'm feeling really good about it. And I'm glad that it's finally in people's hands, because I wrote it, finished writing it, end of last year. And so I've been really excited to hear feedback and read reviews. And it's been really meaningful to see all of that.
10:26 Speaker 01 Yes, it must be rewarding for you, in a sense. Did you find it easy to operate in a different medium? Often the content you create on camera, so you're used to engaging with people in that format. I think the book is positive that I've already read, a fantastically written, Jay, of course. How did you find the process of conveying your ideas in a different format? Was it challenging? Did you enjoy it?
10:52 Jay Shetty? In the beginning, it was really challenging. I found it really hard. Like you said, I'm so used to speaking and I always thought that, oh, you could just... Speak and then write and then it would look the same and sound the same and people would digest it the same. And then I started realising that that wasn't the case. So the biggest intention I had is that I wanted when everyone reads it to feel like I was sitting in the room with them, that we were spending time together, that it was a really present conversation. And I think that took a while for me to learn and understand. So it was definitely challenging. I fell in love with the process after a bit, after a few months. And now I'm excited to write more and more, but definitely was challenging in the beginning.
11:32 Speaker 01 Of course, I've known you for a long while. And my wife and I were talking about you most favourably, knowing that I was going to be spending this virtual time with you. And, you know, when we first met, it was because you were spending time with a mutual friend and mentor of ours, Radhanath Swamy. And my wife reminded me that you used to drive in to the house, you wouldn't come in, you would wait outside. But that conveys incredible humility and the sort of commitment to your own sort of pilgrimage and spiritual journey. Now, how are you dealing with, like, you know, since then, you've become like a sort of, I've been watching the stuff that comes up on screen, you know, tremendous success of your book, the social media success. How does that intersect with your spiritual practice? Because one of the hardest things for me has been doing what I do for a living
12:16 Speaker 01 and trying to keep grounded while still working in a world that, in a world that requires sort of plaudits, engagement, and to a degree, ego. How has that journey affected you?
12:26 Jay Shetty? Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful question. I remember that. I've done that so many times, driving Radhanath Swamy to yours. And it would always fill me so much joy to see your interactions and how much you had so many incredible questions and curiosity and how much he loves spending time with you. And so for me, seeing your relationship was so joy giving to me. So when we finally got to connect, it was really an honour for me. But I think that it's a daily challenge to manage and monitor what you're speaking about. I think it's something that I have to be aware of and conscious and intentional about every day. And so my monk training and understanding of humility and ego is a really strong foundation. And it really gives me a great starting point.
13:11 Jay Shetty? But the thing about ego is that its biggest trick is making you feel like you've conquered it. And so if you ever feel egoless, or you feel like you're humble, it's almost like ego's winning more and more and more. And so for me, daily reminding myself of why I'm doing what I do, one of my favorite practices, and I don't know if Ratanath Swamis ever shared this with you, but it was a monk practice and a teaching that really helped me, was that every time someone congratulates you, or admires you, or says something positive about you, you accept it, but you, after accepting it, you pass it on to the person that gave you that skill, or that realization, or that ability. So if someone says to me, like, oh Jay, I really appreciate
13:56 Jay Shetty? this about you, I accept that and I thank them for it. But at the same time, I then pass that on as gratitude to the teacher or the mentor that gave it to me. And sometimes even someone who indirectly gave it to me, maybe someone was mean to me in the past, or someone treated me badly in the past, and you remember them and say, oh, I learned that good quality because of some pain. So to me, there are some of these practices that have become almost wirings in my mind and brain, because I practiced them over so much time, that it almost happens by default, but I have to keep cementing that realization. I hope that answers your question, at least to start it off.
14:30 Speaker 01 It certainly does. And how, do you literally say it out loud to the person, or do you just do it in your head?
14:36 Jay Shetty? I usually do it in my head, but if it's someone I know, if we were talking, then I'd be like, oh yeah, that's something I learned from so and so. But initially, if that person would be like, what are you talking about? Then my answer will be, okay, let me just pass it on in my mind to my teachers, or my mentors, or my coaches, or like I said, an ex-girlfriend, or an ex-partner, or something like that too, that may have taught us something powerful.
14:59 Speaker 01 Right, just to prevent you from taking it on board and going, yeah, I am pretty terrific, aren't I?
15:05 Jay Shetty? Exactly, there's a beautiful story that I think was told in, I think it's Law Abiding Citizen, that movie with Gerard Butler, I think it's in there. And it's also in Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, and it said that when Marcus Aurelius would walk around the Roman square, he'd be followed by a whisperer almost, or an assistant. And the assistant's only role would be to whisper in his ear, "You're just a man, you're just a man." Because Marcus Aurelius would be praised and given so much adoration that he needed to remind him. Now, we may not all be able to have assistants that assist us in that way, but we have to be our own assistants in our mind and remind ourselves of our humility and anchor.
15:45 Jay Shetty? And I think there's so much liberation in knowing that it's not all to do with you. It's almost too much pressure. And I often say that, like, for me, if you look at the book, you'll see the Bhagavad Gita, you'll see the Vedas, you'll see teachers and mentors. And you wrote a book called Mentors, which was phenomenal too. And, you know, it's like, that to me is just so freeing, realising that it's not all down to you. I think that's too much pressure for all of us to try and do it all ourselves.
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18:28 Speaker 01 That's really beautifully explained. If it was me, I would pay that person doing the whispering to say, "You're just a sexy man." Great, I'm going to pass on some of the questions that are coming through on the chat. AJ Sunny is asking, "How do you deal with anxiety? When you're going through loneliness, what do you do?" That's a question from AJ Sunny.
18:46 Jay Shetty? Yeah, so anxiety is definitely tough for so many of us, and I think people experience it in different ways. I do recommend that people do find professional help and support if this is something that has gone on for a long period of time. But for me, the first part of it, through loneliness specifically, what you mentioned, is starting to explore loneliness a bit more. So I feel like in English, we have two words for being alone, but we only use one of them. So one of them's loneliness and the other one's solitude. And monks and ascetics and yogis, as well as more recent writers like Paul Tillich, would talk about how being alone, there's a strength in solitude. There's a power in being alone. There's actually great strength in it, but we don't see that because when you were a kid...
19:29 Jay Shetty? And if you remember school, Russell, and if you were one of the kids that didn't have a lot of friends, you'd be considered the weirdo or the loner. Or if you had a party and only five people showed up, you'd be considered unpopular. And so we've constantly made loneliness seem like a bad thing and a negative thing. And so now everyone's scared of being lonely. So if you're thirty and you're not married, it's like, oh, my gosh, you're alone. Like, how are you still single? And so we've created this really negative narrative around being lonely, when actually a lot of traditions would find power in solitude. And so the first thing I'd suggest is sometimes solitude is a great way of learning about yourself. And to me, that's a really good place to start because when you learn about yourself and you find out what you like and what you dislike and what you're passionate about
20:14 Jay Shetty? and what activity every day brings you joy, you start loving your own company and your own mind and your own space. And that allows you to remove some of that initial anxiety. Is that something you talk about in the book, mate? Yeah, so I spend the first section of the book is called letting go or let go. And a lot of that is letting go of these layers and identities and expectations, opinions and obligations that society puts on us. And I remember you talking about, you know, achieving great heights and attending some of the most incredible award ceremonies in L.A. for like, you know, movies and music and you were hosting. And you were just kind of like, well, really, is this all it is? Like, you had to let go of that being the epitome or the pinnacle of society.
20:59 Jay Shetty? And I think a lot of us have to do that in our own selves. And so for me, letting go is not just physically distancing. It's not just about being alone or solitude by physically distancing. It's mentally and emotionally distancing from the expectations, opinions and obligations of society. And to me, that's what solitude really is, more than even just physically being away from people.
21:22 Speaker 01 Like when you're going on to sort of regular news media and those kind of things, how do you deal with conveying a message that comes from a very esoteric personal practice? I know how serious you take your meditation. I'm often dazzled by the degree that you're willing to go through, the hours you put into meditation, your commitment to not using profane language or cursed words and stuff like that. When you're going into like the nexus of this machine, appearing on daytime TV in America or, you know, popular TV shows, how do you present this message which has roots in very sort of early and very pure practices?
21:59 Jay Shetty? Yeah, my goal is to try and present them as purely, but also as practically as possible. And so for me, it's also about really connecting with people with their current challenges in life and where they're at. And I think that's the same for me, that the only reason why I was able to understand, I'm sure you feel the same way, the only reason why we were able to take on something, because again, I'm born and raised in London. I grew up in North London. I didn't grow up in a religious family. I wasn't meant to be a monk. Like I have material desires. I have an ego. I have all of this stuff. But I was able to adopt these teachings because someone presented them to me in a practical way that connected with the life I currently lived. And so for me, my goal's
22:42 Jay Shetty? always, how do we make this really practical? And I'm excited, actually, we're going to take some questions afterwards that I'm going to ask you as well, because I love your perspectives. And so we're going to take some questions from the audience that Russell gets to answer too. So guys, leave your questions for Russell and me. We're both going to go back and forth. But that's really important to me that we speak to people in a way that it's meeting them where they are, not where you think you are or what's next for you. And I think that's where it gets confusing. So I remember one of my teachers would always give me the example of if you're practicing, for example, a PhD mathematician came into this broadcast and started speaking about PhD mathematics, I wouldn't have a clue. You might, but I definitely wouldn't have a clue.
23:23 Jay Shetty? And I'm sure it'll go over both of our heads. But if they were able to explain a basic equation or two plus two equals four, we'd understand. And so it's not about basic in the sense of not being evolved or pure. It's about simplifying so that it meets people where they can connect. And so for me, I'm always trying to understand how I can better share and understand. And the best quote I've heard of it from Einstein is, "If you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough." And so for me, that's always like my practice. I'm like, all right, if I can't explain this to a four year old, then it doesn't make sense. So I'm always thinking to myself, how do I learn this? How do I learn this and understand it? So that's kind of my personal challenge to myself.
24:03 Speaker 01 Do you sometimes become frustrated, Jay? Because I was thinking then when you used the example of mathematics, that we don't live in a culture that kind of denies the existence of mathematics. In that a culture that's predicated on materialism, on consumerism, on commodification, has a vested interest in kind of denying spiritual principles, very fundamental principles such as you are enough, you don't need to buy anything else. We're all connected to one another. In fact, we're all one. You don't need to compete with other people.
24:34 Speaker 01 So you see with the mathematics example, whilst we may be ignorant of maths, there's not an absolute denial of maths, whereas sometimes with spirituality, it's had a bad rap, it's been presented as woo woo, it's been presented as dogmatic and negative and attached to sort of prejudicial and condemnatory ideas. How do you navigate that space, knowing that you're living in a world that kind of not only is sometimes ignorant of those principles, but in absolute denial of them?
24:59 Jay Shetty? I think for me, I feel a sense of responsibility to try my best to present what I've learned in a way that is compassionate towards anyone who may have those blocks. Because there's a reason someone has that block. It could have been their parent, it could have been a religious institution, it could have been an early experience in childhood or at school. And so my heart just feels extended in compassion to whatever background someone's coming from, because I feel we all have blocks to different things. And I know blocks that I have. And so being compassionate towards other people's blocks, just because they're different, but then feeling a sense of responsibility. And so, for example, in the book,
25:41 Jay Shetty? I not only share inspirational stories of people who've become monks, or lessons, or legends, or parables, but I also share a lot of science. Because to me, it's really important that the meditation techniques and the practices we talk about. And that's where I really got fascinated by monks' brains, because I've interviewed Matthew Ricard, who's been called the world's happiest man. Because his brain has the highest form of gamma waves when scanned, which are linked to happiness, joy and attention. And then they did 20 other monks and then they found the same thing. And so for me, it's, I love seeing the science behind the spirituality and the stories. And I'm almost thinking like if, and I know you do this too, and if all of us were able
26:22 Jay Shetty? to be more synergized in our approach, then hopefully we would limit that skepticism or cynicism that comes. And so for me, I see it as a responsibility to try and change the way things are presented, realizing that I won't get it perfectly right and realizing not everyone's going to agree. But, but you know, not everyone agreed with a lot of incredible people. So I'm just little old me trying to make a decision and trying to make a change, and I'll keep trying to do that.
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28:21 Speaker 01 Obviously, if you're practicing at the level of your man there, your happiest man, and monks that have built an entire lifestyle around achieving that kind of peace and happiness, advantages to that. When you were speaking, mate, I was thinking, wow, is that all then? Do we have to make those kind of changes in our lives? Do we have to become ascites? And do we have to deny ourselves pleasure and engagement? How are we going to live in a world where we're increasingly online, where we're defined by what we do for money? How are we going to utilise these techniques while dealing with the limitations and demands of materialism?
28:58 Jay Shetty? Absolutely, and that's why I called the book Think Like A Monk and Don't Live Like A Monk, because I don't think it's practical even for me now in my life. But I definitely know that I've tried to extract the mindsets that are useful in our day-to-day life. So we may not be able to become people that meditate for four to eight hours a day, like monks do, but we could carve out four to eight minutes to start with. Right? We may not be people that are going to say, "I'm going to remove all my material possessions because we've got kids and families to feed and all the rest of it, so it doesn't make sense." But we may say, "I'm going to limit my wants and focus more on my passions and my hobbies and my interests." So there are elements and the essence that we can extract
29:40 Jay Shetty? from the teachings and apply them to our lives so that we can feel some of those benefits. And I really feel that, and you know, I know many examples of people in the world who have jobs, who have families, who are trying to do this, and they definitely feel greater senses of joy, happiness and purpose in their life than they would if they didn't. So for me, it's more about, well, let's take a look at the practices and let's start carving out moments in our day where we are thinking like a monk and taking that mindset, rather than having to transform our whole life. And of course, for those of you that can, taking out a day for a meditation retreat, or taking out a week to go on a retreat,
30:22 Jay Shetty? is beautiful. That immersive experience could restart your whole journey. And so when we can travel again, but even now, online sessions like this, when people can dial into that... It can give them the answers that they're looking for and give them an answer of what's next, rather than just going on that default autopilot mode. And then years just go by. So to me, it's more about giving people the tools to make the decisions for themselves.
30:47 Speaker 01 Yes, as you've said earlier, in ways that can be implemented in harmony with a lifestyle that places other demands on us. So hulling in on some of the specific things you talk about in the book, mate. What do you feel, for example, about forgiveness? I know you speak about in the book, degrees of forgiveness and how forgiveness functions and creates serenity. Pack that for us a little bit, mate.
31:14 Jay Shetty? Yeah, absolutely. So in the Bhagavad Gita, there are three aspects called the modes. And modes are basically every activity, every thought, every action is in one of these modes. And the modes are goodness, passion and ignorance. So for example, forgiveness in the mode of ignorance is like, oh, I don't want to forgive anyone, I want revenge and they need to fall apart. So that's considered the mode of ignorance. It's an ignorant intention with an ignorant action. The mode of passion is saying, well, I'll only forgive them if they say sorry and they make it up to me. So it's demanding something before we forgive. And the mode of goodness realizes that whether that person does the right thing or did the
31:55 Jay Shetty? right thing or the wrong thing, if I forgive them, then I'll be free of the pain and the trauma that comes with holding on to unforgiveness or holding on to that pressure. So every one of our actions are always in one of those modes. So the mode of ignorance, you're motivated by fear and insecurity. So revenge is an intention that's motivated by fear and insecurity. In the mode of passion, you're motivated by desire and result. I want someone to say sorry to me and then I'll give them something back. A mode of goodness is motivated by love and compassion. Where we realise that actually out of love and compassion for myself and love and compassion for that person, there's no point in me holding this grudge. So the goal isn't to say, oh, if I'm in the mode of ignorance, I'm a bad person.
32:39 Jay Shetty? The goal is to say, I'm in the mode of ignorance, that's how I feel right now. Let me see how I can upgrade to the mode of passion and let me see how I can upgrade to the mode of goodness. So it's not about judging ourselves or saying, oh, we're less than or we're not right. It's about dealing with our conditioned response and habit. And now say, well, how do I rise from this? Because I realise that it's not beneficial to me. And I think all of us who've ever had to forgive someone will realise that actually wanting to take revenge on them didn't work because even when we got that body that we thought would get them back, they still felt that way about us. We still didn't feel happier about ourselves because we did it for them. Or if we demanded closure from someone,
33:19 Jay Shetty? even if they kind of gave it to us, we still felt empty inside because we knew it was something we had to give ourselves. So forgiveness to me starts with forgiving yourself. And it extends out when we start upgrading in these level of the modes.
33:32 Speaker 01 You still revert to and deploy quite traditional resources in your understanding of spirituality. Go back to the Bhagwad Gita. Are you also interested in biblical scripture and the Quran? Do you check out a lot of various sources, Jay?
33:51 Jay Shetty? Yeah, I was really fortunate. When I was around 16 was when I first got really interested in spirituality, religion and traditions. I felt really bad that we as a family celebrated Christmas, but I didn't know too much about Jesus Christ apart from his birth that we celebrated at school. But I felt bad that we had Christmas and we had a Christmas dinner, even though there wasn't turkey, it was vegetarian or whatever at home. And I was just a bit like, well, wait a minute, I'm giving presents to my family, but I don't really know what this is about. And so I started attending the church in my local area when I was about 16 and just wanting to learn more. And I remember reading parts of the Bible there. And that's why in the book you'll find me quoting from a lot of Christian monks. At the same time, I remember reading the Quran around the same time
34:35 Jay Shetty? because I was dating someone from a Muslim background and I wanted to understand more about her tradition. And so that was my reason for reading the Quran. And then when I wrote the book, I dived even more into, and when I lived as a monk, dived into more of the Buddhist literatures and. And all of the Hindu literatures, of course, which are much more closer to this. So to me, and the book has that, the book has so much quoting from monks of all different traditions. Because I think Pema Chodron, for example, who's a Buddhist monk, is, I'm a huge fan of her work. I think she's done phenomenal work in healing the heart for so many people. And so she's someone I quote a fair bit in the book. And that's kind of where I get excited.
35:15 Jay Shetty? I kind of see myself as a curator and a synergizer and someone who can grab and see parallels and connections. And I go back to that Steve Jobs feeling of creativity is connecting things. And I always think that looking for parallels and synergies is really interesting because that's where you find answers. You don't find answers in polarities and divisions. And so for me, that's always my, and same with science, whether it's science, even whether it's mainstream culture. I love watching a movie and going, where's the Bhagavad Gita principle in this movie? And I can always find it. And that's what I love. I love wisdom being so relevant. And I start the book with that quote from Ivan Pavlov that says, if you want a new idea, read an old book.
35:55 Jay Shetty? And I really, really love that because to me, that's where that intersection of new and old, science and spirituality, religion, but also daily ritual, like I love seeing those synergies. That's kind of where I get my buzz from.
36:08 Speaker 01 Are you interested in altered states of consciousness? I don't necessarily mean, I know that you are a abstinent person like me, that you don't drink or take drugs. I'm not referring to that. But altered states achieved through yogic exercise, for example, Kundalini and breath work. Are you fascinated with areas of religious discourse that seem to be dealing with alternate dimensions, alternate realities? Is that something that interests you?
36:36 Jay Shetty? Yeah, it does. I think anything that extends humanity beyond the body is fascinating to me. Because I think so much of what we talk about is all around the experiences of the body, or even just the emotions, or even just the mind. And I think any sort of venture into the world of consciousness fascinates me because, A, because I'm excited to see if science will ever be able to figure out and share more on it. But B, because I think These kind of alternative experiences, as you're calling them, give people faith in different ways and give people the realisation that there is more to us than our bodies and our minds. And, and I think that that's why it fascinates me because
37:21 Jay Shetty? if anyone's ever had an outer body experience or if ever anyone's ever had a meditation where they felt completely connected with that consciousness, they now have a completely different paradigm to life. And so that's why it fascinates me because I think for so many people, we need to really feel and experience something to believe it. And if that, if you're someone who's like that, then I think these practices can be really powerful and useful.
37:45 Speaker 01 Because part of what we're dealing with is, I would say, mundane challenges. I don't mean mundane in a pejorative sense. I mean, the challenges of everyday life. I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling insecure. Then there's the more sort of extreme problems that are happening. We live in times of tyranny and abuse and great fear. Sometimes I wonder about the, what might be regarded in a secular society as the extreme aspects of spirituality. I mean, specifically monastic living, higher states of consciousness. I can't help but think, Jay, that they might be a significant component in any meaningful change, which would have to take place beyond the level of the individual. Although, of course, I acknowledge that we start with the individual. And I think you're doing excellent work in that area,
38:29 Speaker 01 making these ideas palatable, accessible. Certainly, that's what you do for me. But what do you think about the spiritual implications of living a life that is predicated on principles that extract spirituality?
38:43 Jay Shetty? Yeah, if I'm understanding your question correctly, and you can tell me if I've got it wrong. But I remember you saying this, we were in New York together. And, and you were saying, you know, everyone's always trying to demystify spirituality and you're like, I want to remystify spirituality. And I love that because it was, you know, such an interesting viewpoint because you almost really appreciate and enjoy the really extreme forms of it. And when I say extreme, I don't mean extreme in action, but in experience and attending rituals that are very ancient and timeless. And for me, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? That there'll be different leaders who push and lead society in different ways. There'll be some who Put out something extreme which will sound crazy and we'll all catch up in a few years.
39:28 Jay Shetty? There'll be people that make things really easy and accessible to understand right now. And it's almost like, I always feel like we need everyone because everyone's gonna have a different flavour and a different approach and a different need. And their knowledge or their sharing will be realised at different times. And so we know that, like, there are so many traditions or cultures that only gained traction many years after that wisdom had been left on the planet. So if I'm understanding your question correctly, I think we need people on all levels of the spectrum sharing messages from a truthful and genuine space of experience. Because that's gonna connect with people at different times. And we may not even get it right now, but 10, 15, 25 years down the line,
40:12 Jay Shetty? we'll be like, oh wow, that person was ahead of their times. I don't know if I'm understanding your question correctly, so.
40:16 Speaker 01 I think you do understand it. And you've certainly answered an aspect of it in that there are different sort of levels of understanding and appreciation. Another aspect of what I was inquiring about is the sort of social implications of living in a spiritually, you know, sort of, what's the word, may, kalye, or kalyuga?
40:34 Jay Shetty? Yes, kalyuga, yes.
40:36 Speaker 01 You can see the sort of political and social aspects, you know, mental health, addiction, conflagration. I wonder how you feel that these spiritual principles are applicable beyond our individual practice, which is of course the focus of this book, and into a more, into a broader social context. Is that something you think about, or is that?
40:57 Jay Shetty? Thank you for re-explaining it. Yeah, that makes so much sense. I do think about it. I've been spending a bit more time thinking about it. And I think, Mike, as you said, my focus very much for the last few years of my work has been focusing on the individual. And I don't know if I'll ever stop doing that because I really love trying to improve individual lives and experiences. But I do, I do spend some time thinking about structure and systems. At least what I know now is that ultimately.
41:26 Jay Shetty? The action that anyone takes is fueled by the purity of their intention. And so, systems and structures cannot solve problems if they don't come from a place of purified intent. And so, you can't solve a systemic issue just with a new system. It's got to be solved from someone who's implementing the system with love and with compassion. So, people often get confused. They're like, well, how does love and compassion solve the world? And it's like, well, it doesn't. What it does is it solves the problem of the heart. And then you use your strategy and your mindsets and your statistics and your data and your science.
42:06 Jay Shetty? Then you use all that stuff to create systems that facilitates the conversation of the heart. I was reading about something recently. There's a documentary that's coming out that Will Smith's a part of called The Amend Documentary. It's all about the Fourteenth Amendment. And it talks about how like this incredible amendment that is meant to be about equality for all, but people have constantly found loopholes in it to not give equality for all. And that's what I mean by that. You can have a really good amendment, or a really good principle, or a really good system, but if people aren't wired to serve that system through purity of intent, we end up manipulating and abusing a system to get what we want anyway. And so, to me, that's where they go hand in hand.
42:48 Jay Shetty? And when I say compassion and love, I don't mean like, oh, let's just all hold hands and that will change the world. I don't believe that. What I believe is that policymakers, decision makers, presidents, prime ministers, you know, people of power and responsibility and influence can be coming from a place of inherent love and compassion, then the system will actually work. And by the way, that includes people, citizens too. It doesn't, it's not just top down, it's bottom up as well.
43:15 Speaker 01 Right, I like the way you put that. Like, you know, Satish Kumar in one of his books was talking about meeting like Bertrand Russell in the sixties, who was campaigning for nuclear disarmament. And he said, what's the point in getting rid of nuclear weapons if we don't get rid of the mentality that created and we'll just continue to perpetuate these ideas? And it's like you're saying, unless there is a sort of a fundamental change at the level of individual consciousness, how can it prevail on a broader level? So, in a sense, there is no distinction between individual spiritual growth and collective social growth. They're in a way, the same idea, just depends which side of it you feel your dharma is in, I suppose.
43:50 Jay Shetty? Correct. And I think that's the biggest mistake we make is that we think it's either or. So we start, so some of us will be like, oh, no, it's all about individual change. And that's all that matters. Forget the system. And then there's other people like, it's all about the system, forget the people. And it's like, well, no, it's always both, right? Like, it's, it's always this symbiotic coming together. And so we have to value spirituality and strategy. We have to value techniques and deep spiritual thought. We have to value purity and purpose. Like, it's about embracing polarities. It's about, you know, really trying to understand, like, even the work we do, like, I often talk about it, that I wouldn't be able to do what I do if I didn't understand strategy and wisdom.
44:31 Jay Shetty? Like, you have to understand both, because there's a beautiful statement by Martin Luther King, where he said that those who love peace need to learn to organize themselves as well as those who love war. And I think that's what's missing, is that often when we believe in peace and love, we don't get organized, we don't get strategic, we don't get focused, and we just kind of hope that things are going to change. And that's, I'm, I'm not into that mindset at all. I really, I really believe that we have to be organized. But I want to open up and have you answer some questions, because I've been talking so much. And I want to hear your incredible mind and your incredible voice and insights on all of this. So I want to take some questions, Russell, if that's okay with you.
45:13 Speaker 01 Of course.
45:14 Jay Shetty? You've been asking me so many amazing questions. But for the next 15 minutes that we have with Russell, I really want you to hear from him. So send your questions in, and when I see them up on the screen, I'm going to read them out to Russell. So we've got the first one from Karishma. Thank you, Karishma. How do you deal with external pressures and expectations from people around you, especially when you are happy with where you are in life? Russell, I'd love for you to answer that question, if, if you'd like to take it.
45:38 Speaker 01 Well, if I'm happy in my life, that's such a, for me, I have to really cherish and treasure that, because I have dealt with a great deal of anxiety and turbulence. So if I find myself happy, that's something that I hold quite sacred. I'm willing to evaluate the relationships in my life continually. Not from a selfish perspective, I hope, but now as a father of young children, I'm pretty About what my priorities are. So if I feel that there are negative influences in my life, external pressures from people that I do not think are beneficial or nutritious. If after explaining to them, you know, if it's someone that I care about that's important to me,
46:19 Speaker 01 if the problem continues, I do consider as part of my whole 12 step approach, the possibility of letting go of that relationship. I can't hold on to environments, social or otherwise, that are ultimately negative for me. Jay, what do you think, mate?
46:36 Jay Shetty? No, I love that. I think that's great. I think for me, it's always finding ways to just be more convinced about the path that I'm on. And you can only get that the more you walk it. And then that way, that noise kind of just gets quieter. And to me, it's like, that's why I think stillness and solitude is so important. I feel like whenever I feel like I've got all these competing expectations and people's opinions are getting in my head, I just need to spend time alone and just recalibrate like what I really care about and what's important to me. And so I spend a lot of time just being away from it all to be like, okay, well, what do I feel? What do I believe? Have I really tested that belief? And then I can feel more confident about it. So yeah, thank you, Karishma, for that wonderful question.
47:20 Jay Shetty? Let's take another one from the audience. And Russell, I'm loving hearing your insights. I know Patel says, what basic steps can we start to perform to steer towards our purpose in life? Russell, I'm intrigued to hear your version of this because you've lived so many different lives and worn so many different hats in your journey. And I wonder, I've never actually asked that question. I wonder how your purpose is transformed or changed or how you even think about it. I'd love to hear that from you.
47:48 Speaker 01 In a sense, thanks, Jay. A lot of it is, would have to refer to the answer you gave to the previous question, is spending some time with myself, looking at what my intentions are. If I can honestly say my intentions are kind to others and myself, then I will run it past another person and get another perspective. You know, I have, as we've discussed, of mentors, people further down the path than me, or people, you know, like we have a different, that have a different perspective than I do. And I get their opinions and impressions also. So eventually, what I'm trying to find when looking for purpose is a sort of sense of harmony. Because of my sort of history of addiction, I'm aware that I've repeated the same pattern in various forms again and again and again.
48:31 Speaker 01 And to your point earlier, when we were discussing forgiveness, Jay, if I sort of feel like, oh, really, I'm trying to get something here, or I'm trying to make an impression on somebody, if I see that that's part of my purpose, then I consider before going down that road. So mine is to spend some time in reflection and to consult people that know more than me and to make sure that it's in alignment with my basic principles, which are the simple things like, you know, am I being selfish? Am I being self pitying? And am I being dishonest? You know, I run those kinds of checks and balances. What about you, mate?
49:00 Jay Shetty? Yeah, I love that. I think those are awesome. And I think those are the things that really start the journey. And in chapter five of the book, I speak about the concept Dharma. And and it's without a doubt probably my favorite concept that's had such a big impact on my life. And Dharma can be loosely translated in English to multiple things, but it translates to eternal purpose or inherent nature. And i- it's really found in the synergy between passion, strengths and compassion. So it's like, what do you love? What do you enjoy? Uh, what are you actually good at? What do you have a natural talent in? And don't confuse inexperience with weakness. Sometimes you just haven't done something enough to be good at it. And you think, oh, I'm not good at that. But strengths, what are your strengths?
49:44 Jay Shetty? And finally, compassion, how do you use it to help someone else? That's really what purpose is. It's when you use your passion and strengths in the service of others. And I think that's often what's missed in finding purpose. That we look to just feel fulfilled ourselves, but actually that final piece that really creates purpose is, okay, how do I use this to serve other people? And that can apply to anything from comedy uh, through to movies, through to accountancy and law. Like, there's nothing in the world that can't be used to help people. And I think sometimes we limit, we say, oh, well, you can't help people because you're X, Y, Z, or that career can't help you. That's not true. Uh, everything can be used in the service of others and engaged in that way. All right, let's take some more questions for Russell because.
50:27 Jay Shetty? And loving hearing from him and it's wonderful to see you, Russell. Thanks for doing this in the evening as well. Let's take another question. Okay. Niam, when you're at a crossroads in life and feeling stuck, everything starts to become negative. How would you go about starting to rewire thoughts to make the best decisions? Russell, whenever, I'm sure you've experienced several crossroads in your journey and feelings of feeling stuck. I think you'd be a great person to answer this.
50:55 Speaker 01 I try to, when I'm at a crossroads, Jay, I try to, like, again, I use mentors because I've had a lot of examples in my past of making decisions that were negative. I like to consult other people. That doesn't mean I've become overly dependent or that I deify them or like neglect my own intuition. I do like to consult, you know, like, for example, I was making like a world decision quite recently and I had a bunch of options and I'd like I spoke to a mentor of mine and he said, at this point now, any one of these decisions could be right or it could be wrong. Sometimes we make a decision, it doesn't go the way we want. This just means in the future we'll be making another decision. I think letting go of the idea of perfectionism can be very helpful about this.
51:40 Speaker 01 Whatever, like, in a sense, we make the path by walking it. And if we let go of the idea that we're going to be curating or creating the perfect life, there can be some freedom in that. But I would never relent from consulting mentors and looking at my basic principles that have always guided me.
51:58 Jay Shetty? I love that and I love how much of an emphasis you place on mentors in your life. It's, it's huge and you know, I know in that book you talk about eight mentors, I believe it is, that you've really learned from in different areas of your life. And that's what I loved about that book is you are very much clear on different people you go to different things for, right? Like, it's not like you're not going to one person for everything and you're not going to everything for everyone. And that's what I feel sometimes when you hear the word mentors, a lot of people think, well, I should have one person in my life that can answer every question. And that's not true. And the opposite is, well, everyone's opinion matters. So I'll ask all my friends what they think. And that leads to a mess, but you have very specific people for specific things, career,
52:40 Jay Shetty? spirituality, addiction, et cetera. You've got people around different areas.
52:44 Speaker 01 Do you have a similar setup in your own life?
52:47 Jay Shetty? Yeah, I think it's been really useful and I think it came from mentors also being honest. I've sometimes asked spiritual mentors career questions and they've said, Jay, I know nothing about your career. And then at the same time, you know, I've had mentors in everything from social media to work. And I'm always seeking more and I remember asking you to also be a mentor in my life because for me, it wasn't because I'm trying to do anything similar to you, but I really felt that your experience of finding spirituality in and amongst this very crazy world and trying to apply. I always thought that having that mentorship would be useful and a useful sounding board
53:29 Jay Shetty? because you've achieved the heights of everything in the world and keep turning towards, you know, more deeper spiritual realms and aspects. So to me, that's always been a fascinating thing to learn. So I recommend, like Russell has in his book and Russell shares in his life. And what I'm saying is surround yourself with mentors who are experts in different areas. Don't try and expect your mum or your dad or your best friend to have all the answers. It's not going to work.
53:54 Speaker 01 Thank you. That was very, very kind. I just want to thank you for your kindness and your acknowledgement there. And I also want to say an important thing for me is recognizing people that can, I experience a lot of fear, not of thank God as much as I used to, but I still experience fear, anxiety. And I feel that when turning to someone for help, that I have to be careful to select people that are able to hold fear, people that don't get inflated by it, don't get agitated and fraught, that can stay, that are able to hold, contain, hold space for me. You know, I think that's an important thing because otherwise you can escalate that stuff.
54:29 Jay Shetty? Yeah, no, that's such a good point, actually. That is such a good point. Yeah, even someone that, especially people that love you, they love you so much. But if you tell them you're scared, you'll be more scared after and I've definitely noticed that. So yeah, no, that's a great advice. Let's take one more question for Russell, everyone. If there's one more question that can't come through, great. Lindsay Murphy, thank you so much. Last question. I want to thank you both for doing this together. I love and I'm inspired by you both, beautiful human beings. Thank you very much. Do you have a routine or a favorite place to write? Russell, what is your routine and favorite place to write?
55:03 Speaker 01 I have to cut off all potential distractions, which can be difficult because you're on a laptop, so you have access to online, so you could be looking up things. And sometimes I do need to consult things when I'm writing, but I tend to be, I like the idea of sitting at a desk or whatever, but the fact is I write best when laying on a bed, all propped up for me, is I make sure that I have water and forgive me, some caffeine. And then on the bed, I pin a laptop. That is my routine and ritual. And I really love Artist's Way, Julia Cameron's book, for anyone that's approaching a creative writing project.
55:35 Jay Shetty? Russell, I want to say a huge thank you to you for coming on today. I really appreciate this and I really hope that we get to do something in person soon together. It would be so fun to just share space with you. And I want to recommend to everyone, if you don't already, go and subscribe to Russell's podcast, Under the Skin. Go and grab a copy of multiple of his books and go and follow him on Instagram, Facebook and all social media platforms if you haven't already, because you're going to find so many incredible conversations, insights, the people that he interviews are fascinating and you always hear his thought process coming through. So please, please, please thank Russell by doing that if you don't listen to him already. And Russell, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
56:16 Jay Shetty? I hope that next time I'm in London, we can spend some quality time together and reconnect deeply because I know we've missed each other a few times in the last couple of years. So I really look forward to it.
56:28 Speaker 01 Jay, I wish you, I'm very grateful to you for your kindness. I wish you all the best for your path. Not, I won't say proud, because it's a word that indicates a type of ownership, but I'm very excited to be on this path with you. Well done, mate. Keep going.
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