3 Ways To Get The Most Out Of Therapy & How Therapy Isn't Only for Big Issues and Problems

Today, I'm joined by Haesue Jo, Licensed Therapist & Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp, with years of experience providing individual and family therapy in community mental health. Her current clinical focus includes working with individuals with a variety of presenting problems, including anxiety, relationship and family issues, trauma, community violence, gender identity, and depression. In this session, we sit down with Ulato Sam as he talks about the challenges he had growing up, the hardships that comes when migrating into a new country as a person of color, overcoming the pressure of preconceived beliefs other people have, and learning the necessary skills and tools to be able to fend for yourself and still have the heart to help others. Disclaimer: Haesue Jo is not Ulato's actual therapist, and they are not in a therapist-client relationship. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What We Discuss: 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:32 Growing up in Jamaica 00:06:06 Not fully understanding self awareness 00:14:33 Expressing your thoughts without perspective interference 00:17:33 The reality of moving into a new place 00:22:01 Motivation to overcome societal pressure 00:25:16 Where did you learn these skills? 00:28:01 The pressure of life never stops 00:32:00 “You should eat so as not to get hungry.” 00:36:45 We all grow up with different experiences 00:40:30 Tools we need to survive and thrive Episode Resources BetterHelp Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 2:10Jay Shetty?

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• 2:30Speaker 01

  They're now, instead of challenges or problems, they're friends that I can bring closer. And sit down and calm them down so that they don't rattle me. Because at the end of the day, I'm still the one in control. My emotions are a reflection of the internal side, but they're actually not what makes the decisions. That is the I, the congruent I in the middle of all of that.

• 3:00Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose. Thanks to our partners at BetterHelp for this episode. Today, I'm joined with Hei Sujo, licensed therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. Also, I just want to remind you that just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis. You want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnosis, if that's important to you. BetterHelp would like me to mention the following trigger warnings for racism, bullying, and relationships with food. Today, we're joined by a very special guest, Yolado Sam, who's going to be sharing his own experiences,

• 3:44Jay Shetty?

  his own thoughts, his own journey in the world and in life through his lens. And our goal with these episodes is to show you the insides or the inner workings of what a therapy session can look like. So what we're going to be doing is guiding Yolado through some therapy questions that is going to help him reflect, share his experiences, share his thoughts in a way that hopefully shows you that therapy is accessible, it's approachable. And I'm hoping that these give you a sense of what a real session could look like for you. So that if you've had any fears or any doubts or any challenges with finding a therapist or going to therapy, that hopefully some of those will go away. And of course, hopefully, you download BetterHelp

• 4:28Jay Shetty?

  and use it in your life to make therapy really accessible and affordable and approachable for you. So Hei Su, it's always good to have you back in the studio. Yolado, it's good to have you in the studio. Nice to meet you for the first time. Pleasure to meet you as well. Thanks for having me. And for the few moments I've spent with you just now, I can tell that you're a very thoughtful, reflective individual. And so I'm grateful that you've allowed us this opportunity. To be a part of this experience.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for bringing me into this space. As always, curating a space of wellness is something that is really necessary, but also difficult to do. So already, the fact that we have this easy breath and, you know, the nerves and jitters aren't necessarily bubbling to the top. I'm really excited to be able to have this conversation with you both.

• 5:12Haesue Jo?

  I'd love to hear more a bit about you and then that can go further into what you would like to talk about today.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  First and foremost, I'll say I'm from the land of wood and water, the birthplace of reggae dancehall and the fastest man and woman on the planet. None other than Kingston, Jamaica, so you have to represent, you know. But outside of that, growing up, I've always been into athletics. And I come from a really unique family structure. My mom's from England, but my brother and I, born and raised in Jamaica. And on top of that, we have this eclectic sense of family. And as I was maturing, my mom sort of saw an opportunity where my mental health was concerned. Moving from spaces and schools where there were so many things brought together all at one time.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Growing up in Jamaica, you realize that once you get to a particular school, probably high school, which starts in grade seven, there are so many communities that come together all at one time. It's not as spaced out as the United States. So on an island, you can have someone that lives two, three parishes over that starts their journey to school at 5:00 AM in the city where we were. And I just happened to have a challenging time where my mental health was concerned. And that was when I met Dr. Agri Irons. It was a really unique experience because I was so young. I didn't even know what therapy was. But in this space, not only were we dealing with anxiety and depression, but we were also dealing with family structure.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  How can I show up as the best version of myself so that I can be the best brother that I can be, older brother at that? And then also simultaneously be the best son that I can be? Because that was my first sense of duty that I can really think of. Outside of being my own individual, I realized I had this other title. I had son. And then soon thereafter, I had big brother. And I really started to find out what those two terms meant through sitting down with Dr. Irons.

• 7:20Haesue Jo?

  Really connect with other people and I see that identity is really tied to context of you in relationship with with your family.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, family is where it starts, I believe. And then we open from that to culture. Because then the wider scope or the wider lens looks at the fact that this really nuanced. And I would say it was somewhat of a benefit that was offered to me and my brother. Wasn't something that a lot of people around me had the opportunity to experience. And I thank my mom for working so hard for that because it's been something that has shaped the relationship that I have with both of them to this very day. And so in those spaces, I realized that relating to other people is not just something

• 8:11Speaker 01

  that you do to survive or to move yourself forward. But it's something that's actually necessary to humanity. We can't sort of exist isolated. And finding ways of communicating are super important. As we've learned over the last maybe two and a half years as well. So I'm glad that those skills have sort of stuck with me.

• 8:32Haesue Jo?

  Skills of being able to communicate, relate with other people. You mentioned your mom saw an opportunity, that's the way that you mentioned, to get you into, you know, what a lot of people will say services into therapy. You were struggling. What would you say you remember about your own struggle? Not what your mom noticed about you, but what did you feel? And if you even remember that kind of thing?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  I can honestly say in the simplest form, the things that I remember are being exceptionally present with myself, but not fully understanding what that meant.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  So there are these things happening internally. There are these thoughts that are running a little faster than I can keep up with. My body's responding in particular ways that I'm not able to check and really bring back. And before I knew it, I was competing heavily in track and field. It's something I did all the way up through college, ran internationally as well. And I found myself constantly in this, not just a space of doubt, but then also saying, I'm not the biggest on the field. And sometimes when you perform in like a space like Jamaica, where we have like the biggest high school track and field meet in the Western Hemisphere,

• 9:56Speaker 01

  high school champs, there's a lot of pressure. Because again, we're a nation where this is one of the ways that you can make your way out. Big up to Usain Bolt, Tassafa Powell, Hansel Parchment. Those are some of the people that I had the fortune of, whether being able to watch train or being part of a high-performance track team with Fitz Coleman. Those individuals brought me into a space where I saw what was tangible. And I put a lot of pressure on myself, not just to perform, but then also to make a mark. My desire was to make a mark on the world. And that was the first way I understood it.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  And a combination of like just being in high school, going through puberty, and then also performing at a high level in a sport, put me in this intersection of, well, who's helping this athlete to process what he's feeling on and off the track? And I think that's the opportunity that my mom saw. Because there was a big moment in high school where I just, everything froze. And it was my actual, my first absence seizure that I realized that I had. And that was the impetus to say, hey. He's not having the craziest of physical responses. And that's how I ended up in my first therapy session.

• 11:22Haesue Jo?

  And in that session, I imagine you had a lot going on. You said something really poignant here about like being extremely self-aware, but not understanding what that means. And now you're reflecting on that later in life. You've gone through a lot of things, including that therapy. So what do you understand about yourself now that's different from then?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  When I was small, there were the doubts, the pressures, the, as my favorite author Anthony C. Winkler would say, like the little pastor that's in your head that's telling you right from wrong, the voice that isn't yours yet, the voice that is probably society's or your family's that is there to guide you. But no one necessarily sits down and allows that process to be a very present one where we detail like, how are you feeling actually? What are you thinking about? And how does life feel for you in your little body right now as you continue to develop? And so in reflecting now, I realize that I'm more skilled with these techniques. I'm more patient with them as well.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  As a kid, you sort of want to understand, you want to do, you want to get done. And yet, at the same time, you don't have the understanding of how to process all of that. And you might center yourself under all the isms and schisms that are around you. And so now I found that I give myself a bit more space to breathe, give myself a little bit more time to relate, not just to myself, but to my environment. And then I'm able to like analyze a bit more. And that allows me then with even some of the things that I still deal with today that may not have disappeared. But they're now, instead of challenges or problems,

• 13:10Speaker 01

  they're friends that I can bring closer. You know, and sit down and calm them down so that they don't rattle me. Cause at the end of the day, I'm still the one in control. My emotions are a reflection of the internal side, but they're actually not what makes the decisions.

• 13:28Jay Shetty?

  Hey, so I just wanted to maybe just share a few observations for our viewers and listeners back at home or wherever you are. What I love about watching a therapy session in this way, or a conversation with a therapist, is you get to notice the really attentive listening that Hesu has of like, finding like something very specific that you said, and using that as an opportunity to ask a follow-up question, which we don't always get in our day-to-day life. I was, I was thinking about if you were sharing your very honest truth on an everyday basis, sometimes our friends and family, like they can be really well-intentioned,

• 14:10Jay Shetty?

  but it's really hard for them to ask a question that does justice to what you just shared, and, and to really create a space of listening very attentively. And I could see what Hesu was picking out, and I'm sure you felt it too, that you, you had to sit and think, oh, wow, yeah, I just said that, like, what does that really mean?

• 14:29Jay Shetty?

  And I, and I think that that's one of the beauties of therapy as well, that you actually have someone who's sitting with you, who is listening far more attentively and skillfully than, than most of the people we meet every single day. And then I was also, just reflecting to what you said, I, I think that a lot of our listeners will be able to empathize with what it feels like being a young person who has pressure on them. So whether it's sports or athletics, or whether it's dance, or gymnastics, or whether it's swimming, or whether it's, you know, whatever it is that any of us did when we were young, I think everyone can empathize with that experience of feeling

• 15:14Jay Shetty?

  like I'm not big enough, I'm not the, I'm not fast enough, I'm not skillful enough, like, and, and I can't, can't even imagine what it begins to feel also when you feel that that is a method in your nation to, to create some. You know, impact in your life like that, if you add that layer to it, that's, you know, a really remarkable layer. So I just wanted to share some of those reflections quickly from what I was hearing as well through these sessions. If you're listening or watching right now, I hope you're appreciating and taking in all of these cues.

• 15:49Haesue Jo?

  Thank you. I mean, you're noting, I think, a very key difference from talking to people that you care about that care about you, your friends, your family, the folks that you generally want to turn to first when you're going through something. Oftentimes, when they respond, when the folks that love you are listening to you speak, they're trying to respond in a way that's kind of like emotionally tied up in who you are in the relationship. So you're listening to respond with you in that response. What therapists are generally doing are listening to respond to you with you in mind. I'm not responding with like anything that has to do with my life or trying to connect it to something about me. And that's what people do. That's what friends do with each other is I'm going

• 16:33Haesue Jo?

  to respond in a way that helps us connect on this friend level. So I'm going to bring it back to like, oh, that reminds me of a time when I was in high school and I was running track. Like, you're going to find that therapists generally don't do that very much because the focus should remain on the client. So that is something that is intentional and something that somebody can expect when they go to therapy is this person is here with undivided attention to you, which most of us don't get in our everyday life with anybody.

• 17:03Jay Shetty?

  Definitely, yeah.

• 17:04Haesue Jo?

  You know, it allows for a relationship to form, but it is different. It's different than what you're going to have with your friends, you know, your loved ones.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's like that small bridge between maybe like a sympathetic relationship versus an empathetic relationship, which the sympathetic, to my understanding, is, oh, I've experienced that too. I know what that feels like. Whereas what we're noting now is just sitting down with the person and being like, I actually heard what you said and you mentioned this. Would you like to speak more about that? Which allows for the person that's actually going through something or the person that is coming for help to actually express what they need without this other perspective interfering.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  And not to say that it isn't helpful sometimes because I do believe that in these sessions, there are obviously moments of the, oh, I know what you mean by that. Yet at the same time, they come even at more specific instances. And so it's really a pleasure because also as a man of color, having these conversations too can lead to some very nuanced moments where those lines sort of get blurred for one or many reasons. So this definitely feels.

• 18:29Jay Shetty?

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• 19:14Jay Shetty?

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• 20:31Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 20:32Haesue Jo?

  So, speaking of connecting things back to something you just said, what are these lines that get blurred?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Well, I think I've found that for me, I've been fortunate to have individuals of color, black men and women, for the longer sessions that I've been able to commit to. And I say to commit to because there's a reality that therapy isn't always as affordable or convenient with the world that we live in. And so we're trying to, through something like this, make it feel more tangible and more accessible to people. But then, being in America, I have found that if I do happen to work with a therapist that may be of a different ethnicity or a different race, there are some times where, depending if I haven't done enough research

• 21:22Speaker 01

  or we haven't had enough time together, those lines of like, well, I don't get to talk about this often, let's actually investigate this, when the this that they're investigating isn't what's most important to me, it's the that. And the only reason I'm able to have that a little bit extra awareness is because my experience lets me know that I should be able to speak about the that and not the this.

• 21:51Haesue Jo?

  If I'm understanding, it sounds like... You've had experiences where the person in front of you is focusing in on something, but that isn't necessarily what you want to talk about. But it sounds like you're over there kind of taking care of this other person too, thinking like, oh, I can understand why you would want to focus on that. So then you go with that, which takes the focus of the that. So what is the that for you right now? What is something going on with you right now?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I'll share, this is actually a genuine concern of mine. I've recently moved into a new apartment. The first time, it's me, my one bedroom, one bath, taking care of myself.

• 22:33Jay Shetty?

  Congratulations.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. I appreciate that. And one of the things I had to ask myself recently is how safe I am in my apartment. We know the context of what it means to be in America. And thanks to Morehouse College, my undergraduate experience, that the world isn't as fair sometimes. And we have seen the stories on the news. We hear it on the radio. We see the social media posts. But Breonna Taylor's experience resonated with me in a very different way. To know that you can be in your home, in your bed, fast asleep.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  That was something that, it was real. But now that I am 100% on my own, sitting in that space, I ask myself, how do, not even how do I prevent that? But is that a reality for me? And the sad answer in some senses is yes. There is the small chance that if I haven't introduced myself properly to my neighbors or if I leave at different hours.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  If I wear particular things, I might be seen as suspicious instead of mysterious and cool, you know? That I always want to be that low-key sexy neighbor like, oh, my gosh, he's leaving. He's, oh, he's coming back, you know? But the reality that I also have to navigate is that before they get to meet me, their awe might actually be, I guess, colored by the hue of my skin. And it's something that I have to be aware of regardless of where I am. And it just so happens that I live here. And so all the contextual matters of like, what it means to be black in America, like, sort of came back to me all at one time. So.

• 24:38Haesue Jo?

  Thank you for sharing that. For many other people who are describing to folks, like, I just moved into my first place of my own, the first thing that a lot of people are gonna think is like, that's awesome, congratulations, that's amazing. And then you continue to share that actually you also have to be concerned about your safety. This is not something that many people have to think about. And, you know, as you're speaking, I also have a lot of my own emotional reaction to hearing you because our homes are supposed to be our sanctuaries. Our homes are supposed to be the safest place where we can let our hair down, where we can feel comfortable, where we don't have to be on edge about anything. What I'm hearing is that for you, that is not always the reality.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you want me to believe in this progress, right? And yet, at the same time, on the news, I am able to literally see a physical representation of my features going through these extremely traumatic experiences, right? I'm seeing it not only represented by people advocating for it, but also sensationalized and debated.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  As to whether, oh, it's just or not. When in reality, there are so many faces that look like mine, that dream like I do, that sound like I do, that are slowly absorbing all of that information. And without proper resources, without spaces like this, the discussion around empowering you in the face of that adversity is somewhat lost. And that is probably one of the goals of being a Morehouse man. It's to be a candle in the dark, to represent that even though I know this reality is around me, this shadow might be following me.

• 26:37Haesue Jo?

  That's a lot of pressure for yourself again. A lot of pressure to be light in a very dark world. So what are the things you'd say in your life that continue to motivate you to overcome that pressure, to meet that pressure?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  I think of my granddad that recently passed. Again, we go back to family. So needless to say, my mom, my brother, my grandmother, my family. But outside of that, in the world, we get some small glimmers of hope. And one of the ideas that I constantly have is, what's my hope? And that happens to be my art. What gives me hope is a great story, but a story that doesn't reflect a lot of the stereotypes. I don't know if you all watched my favorite movie of the year thus far, Everything Everywhere All at Once. Really fantastic movie. Outside of that, I love the world championships. You were earlier this summer, you know, big up Shelley and Fraser Price,

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Elaine Thompson, big up Hansapart, the whole. Like anytime I can see people thriving, it's always big for me.

• 27:45Haesue Jo?

  I noted that there must be an immense pressure to continue to share this light that you have inside of yourself with other people. On top of also having to wonder if you're safe in your own home, if you're safe in any space, like you said. And it's hope that you come back to that allows you to move through this world, continue navigating. It gives you kind of the freedom to continue to see beauty in the world. What about times where it doesn't feel so easy to do that?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Well, this is where the skills kick in, is it not? And so it's going to the skills that I have, or taking a moment, grounding myself. And when I say grounding myself, sometimes it's the difference between a shallow breath and an actual deep breath, and knowing the difference in my body of like, what that actually feels like. There's a lot of people don't know what it means to breathe, you know, below their rib cage. And it's something that's uncanny to me because as an athlete, I was also never taught to breathe. I learned about-

• 28:58Haesue Jo?

  Seems like an important thing to be able to do.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  A super important thing. I learned about aerobic and anaerobic respiration, but no one ever gave me an exercise to expand my lung capacity, right? I'm putting my body under duress. I'm putting my body under stress. I like to use sports as an analogy sometimes for life, right? And yet still, the one process that is going to go whether or not your body is under that, right? The part that fuels you is not so much so exonerated on. And so the skills really come into play when I'm not feeling my best. I typically in those dark moments either go to art, go to my loves, or go to my, my family.

• 29:40Haesue Jo?

  It's all still about connection, relationships, you know, being together, interconnectedness. And it's making me think of intersectionality, how things in, in all of our lives meet each other in some way. It's clear that you're a person of the world that is absorbed. You said that, you know, life is an active choice that you're doing all the time. That you have these skills that get you through the more challenging times. Can you share where you started learning these skills? If nobody taught you how to breathe, where did you learn how to do that?

• 30:14Speaker 01

  I happened to be in these really amazing spaces collaborating with these great people. And I ended up working with, after grad school, I ended up working with this wellness brand. And while we were there in that space, that was my first introduction to probably like mindfulness in that extent, sound healing, those types of things. And that was where a little bit of interest started to like develop. But while I was pursuing my masters, I was conducting research. And what I found is that all cultures across the world, what connects us to the Euroba,

• 30:54Speaker 01

  the Greeks, the Ashanti, the Aztecs, is the fact that we all have the same instrument. Can you actively make the decision to go to your breath? Can you actively make the decision to just relax your shoulders, relax your forehead? Stop biting on your jaw. These are all these are things that we don't realize that we're doing. But no one is ever saying to you, hey, take a second and actually stop bracing. Because people think bracing means this.

• 31:27Haesue Jo?

  You going out there and grabbing the bull by the, you know? What I'm hearing is like, even when maybe you were conscious of it or not, people weren't teaching you things, but you went out to be taught by the world in some way or another. You're an active student of life, it sounds like, in that that.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  A lifelong learner.

• 31:48Haesue Jo?

  And I'm also seeing that this lifelong learner has taken all the beauty that he's found. And you really want to share it with other people. You, you mentioned your family a lot and you mentioned art. And art is something to be seen. Art is something to be experienced and something to move other people. And it sounds like you've been moved. You want to move other people.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  I definitely do. How can I do my work so that my cup is somewhat full? So that I can water the next person? So that I can give just a little, not everything, because I need something for myself. But I can't start until I've poured something, as we've heard the angel saying, into the cup.

• 32:28Haesue Jo?

  My mind keeps going back to something you said earlier. The pressure that, I don't know if it's a pressure that you felt for yourself, but a lot of people in your community felt when you were in high school, to achieve, to perform in a particular space in order to get out. I'd be remiss if I don't ask, like, do you feel that kind of thing still present in your life? Do you feel like there are pressures to get out of something?

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Even if I do happen to make it to the place where I'm financially free and I'm able to protect and provide for my family, there's also this question, which I'm sure both of you have asked yourself, how can I help the wider world, the wider community? It's through things like this, definitely. But the beautiful aspect of it is that I don't think it ever stops. Because my reality is, until I see things change in the world around me, that means that there's still work to be done. And the question that I beg of myself is, what can I do?

• 33:31Haesue Jo?

  You've said so many things that I want to continue exploring with you. But really, it's like, you've done quite a lot of self-exploration, is what I'm hearing.

• 33:42Jay Shetty?

  It's interesting hearing you both continuing the conversation. I think a lot of the time, people have an assumption that therapy or conversations around therapy end up being like these deep, dark secrets and these deep, dark holes where it's like, I always feel like sometimes people feel they have to invent a huge problem before a therapy session. And people feel like, oh, if I don't have a really big problem in my life, then I don't need therapy. And what I'm hearing today and hearing this conversation is actually, we're speaking to someone who has a great set of skills, has some good ideas and good thoughts, but we're getting, and I'm hoping you're feeling this way,

• 34:27Jay Shetty?

  and you're the only person who can really tell us this, but there's a sense of like, healthy reflection in and of yourself, of your own ideas. Jesus is asking you questions that are making you pause and stop and really think about where some of these strengths are, where they're not. So I start looking at it so much more of a wholesome discussion as opposed to like,

• 34:51Speaker 01

  I'm like in an emergency situation where I have a problem and I need a therapist to solve it, which is often a feeling I think people have with the like, I'm not gonna go to therapy because I don't have that, or I only go to therapy when I have something that extreme.

• 35:03Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, and people have shared with me that they get stressed out before sessions because they think that they're supposed to be prepared with this big problem that they're supposed to bring up, or, you know, I've been asked like, what am I supposed to bring to you? Am I supposed to come prepared with something? Do I need to have a topic on hand? And I've shared with folks, like, it doesn't always have to be that way. Of course, if you have a topic on hand, that's something we're gonna explore and dig deep into. But you're right, therapy can also just be about digging deep into you, into something that's going on now, relating something that's happened in the past to the present. And it doesn't have to be deep and dark, although that does happen in therapy. But it doesn't have to be that way.

• 35:46Haesue Jo?

  It's not about like pathology, or what's wrong with you, or what's wrong with your mother, or what's wrong with anything. Sometimes it's so refreshing and healing, even if there's no wound there necessarily at the time, but it's like a refreshing thing to be able to just look inward and rediscover your values, what's important to you. Because being able to reflect on this stuff externally, I think, on a regular basis, allows you to continue nurturing your sense of self. And when you don't have a strong sense of self, it seems like you have a, like, what's stronger than strongest, you know? Like, a strong sense of self is what allows you to, you know, have an outpouring of love

• 36:31Haesue Jo?

  for other people, to instill hope in others, and continue to be influential, inspirational. These things don't happen if you don't know who you are.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Two things to that. My grandma always says, you shouldn't eat because you are hungry, you should eat so that you do not get hungry. This is coming from a woman that, at some point, knew what it meant to be, right? So I have learned that therapy isn't necessarily because you need the help at the moment, it's so that you can be prepared for that, that moment where you might not actually have access to the therapist, right? And then the second thing is that the issues that I think that I've gone through are actually like chilling.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  They're actually a lot heavier than I think maybe it sounds like in the moment. But I had to realize that the issue is always going to be the issue. It's your relationship to the issue that is positive or negative. Right? Life is going to be what life is. It's your relationship to life that is either positive or negative. It's a real thing for me when I'm in particular neighborhoods. I remember like working and performing in Europe. And the first time I was in Poland, I remember what the response was to me when I walked into certain spaces. But my relationship to those things is that, again, not only am I a candle in the dark

• 38:01Speaker 01

  that is allowed to feel what I feel, but then what can I do to shift this space? To leave it better than I saw it?

• 38:11Haesue Jo?

  You know, like, I am the one person here that was born in the United States. I was born here, always raised here. Having said that, I also look like someone that has this like perpetual foreigner label stuck to them. Regardless of having been born here, raised here, educated here. I still encounter on a fairly regular basis the idea from other people that I don't really belong here, that I am a visitor to this country. Which is weird because I'm the most American one in this room, right? Like, and I think that experience, like, ever since I was very small,

• 38:51Haesue Jo?

  because my parents, who decided to have their kids in this country and still name them like foreignly, like, I have a very ethnic name. And that is very much part of my experience and my journey. It shaped who I am. It made things difficult when I was a small kid. But at this point, it's not something I would want to change. But I think That and like navigating the world in this like yellow body, it leaves this like gaping hole, this thing I'm trying to fill of wanting to be included, of wanting to be accepted, of wanting to belong. And I think that's one of the pillars of humanity. It's like, we're all looking for that sense of belonging.

• 39:32Haesue Jo?

  And I think, you know, my journey into my profession and the career track I've chosen and everything that I've done at this point is all related to that. And you said something about, you know, getting to know people on an individual level, on a one-on-one experience. When I get to learn about somebody else's life and their pain and their hope and their love, it allows me to feel closer to that sense of belonging. It's like, we're all actually kind of the same in many ways, regardless of all kinds of stuff. And it allows me to feel included. Um, you know, I entered a field too. Mental health is still very predominantly white.

• 40:13Haesue Jo?

  Um, and, you know, I find myself in professional spaces where I still feel like the extreme minority, which I think is still something that I grapple with. It's still something that I'm navigating and still something I'm trying to feel completely comfortable with because ultimately, I can say that I feel comfortable in my skin. I feel good that I live authentically, but there are still contexts and there are still spaces and there are still times where I don't feel that same confidence in myself. And it's something I bring with me, I think, to my work because I know I look like a certain way and I know that people are thinking about something as soon as they see me. And, and that's, that's part of the work too.

• 40:56Haesue Jo?

  And part of my, uh, personal and professional challenge is always feeling like I have to prove myself. And, you know, the nice thing, when I'm in an actual therapy session, when it's just me and this other person, a lot of that pressure actually dissipates. It's not really there as much because as soon as this other person starts to recognize that they can feel safe, because I'm not here to talk about anything that would make them feel othered in this one-on-one interaction, I feel accepted by them too, my clients.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  And I think that's what intersectionality is about. Um, even for example, you sharing that allows me to feel like you can understand my plight. A little bit more because it's also one thing that I I've noticed because there are individuals that may look like us that also don't have that awareness either, right? And growing up in Jamaica, I was really fortunate to be able to grow up and see black billionaires, to see doctors that look like me, to have teachers, both male and female, that looked like me. And when I went to Morehouse, I was very fortunate to have that continue.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  But I will let you know that since leaving Morehouse, almost every instructor that I've had, every teacher that I've had in my master's program, I did not have one black instructor directly teach me. I had to go out and find in the department, right? And one of the things that really grounded me was actually knowing that I know that it's possible. And I think that's also like a double edged sword because knowing what's possible and then being in a space where it's not visibly seen, it then frustrates you because it's like, why isn't it happening? But the reality is that if we can be intentional and creative and mindful

• 42:52Speaker 01

  in not just our art, but the way that we live, the impact that will have is so much longer lasting that we can literally shape the way people are going to experience the world.

• 43:02Jay Shetty?

  Well, Yolanda, I mean, hearing from you today. I mean, I feel very inspired by your commitment to the work that is so important to your heart, not just to your heart, which is so important to the world, right? Like, this is work that I think we all believe is valuable and needed and critical. It's not even, you know, it's not a, it's not a luxury. There's a, this is just a necessity for what we need is humankind. But what I find very indicative is that the work that you've been able to do with your family through the amazing experiences that you've had, thanks to your family.

• 43:47Jay Shetty?

  Through the work that you have done in therapy has given you the ability to now go out and wanna share this message with the world. Like, that's, that's what, at least what I'm, and you can totally agree, disagree, but that, that's what I'm perceiving in someone like you, where you've been through your pain, you've been through challenges, of course, we're always going through pain and challenges, but you're someone who's created a toolkit for yourself, whether it's the tools that you develop through therapy, or, you know, and so now you're in a position of strength and empowerment in wanting to go and be this light that we were discussing, and dealing with the pressure of being that light. But that's some of the work that so many people are trying to do right now, is even

• 44:32Jay Shetty?

  feeling, like, I think, I think we all know that it's hard to be the light when all you've seen is darkness, and we know we don't want people to prematurely try and be the light, and at the same time, we also know that ultimately, when you've walked out of your own darkness, it's great to turn the light on for others.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:56Jay Shetty?

  So much of what therapy's doing is helping us make sense of our emotional and mental self, in order to figure out what we wanna do in the outside world. And it sounds like that's work that you've been doing and continue to do, which has given you a sense of strength to try and help others right now.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  And I think we, as human beings, have the capacity to develop that unlimited toolkit, but it's not until we have great teachers and collaborators, access to information, access to basic human needs, that we can stop thinking of survival, and we can then start to thrive. And so, I have to give thanks for the blessings that I have.

• 45:39Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much, Yolanda.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 45:42Jay Shetty?

  Hey Sue, did you have any final words or remarks for us for today that you wanted to share?

• 45:47Haesue Jo?

  Um, wish I had something super wise. My relation to that is, is that's part of what I think I aim to have my clients strive for in therapy, is integration of separate pieces of self, integration of, you know, all these different components. Those are all very important things that I, I think about in conceptualizing a client case also, really integrating all these things that may feel...

• 46:14Haesue Jo?

  Disconnected or disjointed is what allows you to continue to be authentic and move through the world as somebody that you feel really comfortable being, somebody that you want to be around.

• 46:26Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much for sharing that. Really powerful. Everyone who's been listening and watching at home. I hope today's episode has been enlightening in so many different ways in not only the process of therapy, which is what we started with, but in helping each and every one of us recognize more coherently the amount of work that we need to do as individuals and as a society. I think that's ultimately what I always take away in these conversations is just how much progress we need to make individually and collectively. And I think anyone who's listening to on purpose is dedicated to that. I believe that everyone is dedicated to their personal growth

• 47:12Jay Shetty?

  and the growth of the society around them. And when we recognize that those two things are not disconnected, that they're actually one and the same. I often say to people, if we care about ourselves, then we'll care about our kids, that's obvious. And then when you care about your kids, you care about your kid's school. And then when you care about your kid's school, you care about your kid's town. And when you care about your kid's town, you care about your kid's city. And then when you care about your kid's city, you can't, if you care, then your care doesn't stop. And I think when we take a moment to invest in our own selves and our self-care and then expand that radius out,

• 47:50Jay Shetty?

  we can create a better society for all. So thank you so much, everyone who's been listening and watching today. Thank you to Yolanda Sam for joining us, opening your heart, opening your mind. Hey Sujo, thank you so much for always guiding us and helping us navigate these wonderful conversations. And to everyone who's been listening and watching at home, thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you again on another episode of On Purpose. This episode was sponsored by BetterHelp. Big thanks again to Heisoo Zhou, Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp. Heisoo Zhou is not my actual therapist and we are not in a therapist-client relationship. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis.

• 48:33Jay Shetty?

  You'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnosis if that's important to you.

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