Alison Wood Brooks: The Science Behind Great Conversations

Jay sits down with Harvard Business School professor Alison Wood Brooks, author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves, to explore what makes great conversations actually work and where most of us get it wrong. Together, they unpack how to choose better topics, embrace the messiness of real dialogue, master the three stages of listening, and give compliments that genuinely connect. Alison also reveals why admitting uncertainty builds more trust than having all the answers, and shares practical conversation games you can start using right away. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Learn to own the conversations that matter most in Alison Wood Brooks' new class on MasterClass: The Conversation Advantage With Alison Wood Brooks | MasterClass PURPOSE10 for 10% at altrarunning.com/onpurpose. Free Shipping and Free 30-Day Trial. Head to https://wayfair.com right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe here: https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Introduction 01:51 Shifting Focus from Yourself In Conversation 05:31 Lowering Your Anxiety with Topic Prep 08:30 Is It Better to Be Interesting or Interested? 09:45 The Butterfly Net Metaphor 13:00 Low-Stakes Practice To Build High-Stakes Confidence 14:00 Debunking Traditional Rules of Persuasion 15:55 Building Conversational Safety Through Validation 17:06 Agenda-Free Relationships vs. Manipulative Networking 20:36 The Power of Follow-Up Questions 24:00 Embracing the Natural Messiness of Dialogue 26:11 Unrealistic Standards Set by Media and Podcasts 27:06 Alison's Top Three Small Talk Techniques 29:22 Balancing Leading vs. Following in Conversation 32:40 Does Your Mind Wander During Conversation? 33:40 The Power of Callbacks 34:00 The Attention Crisis and Screen Disruption 37:09 Strategies for Staying Present 39:00 Reciprocity and the Good-to-Great Question Shift 41:14 Intimate Openers and Stealth Topic-Switching 46:12 How to Respond to One Word Answers 47:35 Game 1: Spontaneous Depth and Sincerity 51:57 Game 2: Breaking Through Reserve 55:56 Talk Time Game: Battle of the Nice Guys 01:01:03 The Compliment Landmines to Avoid 01:04:00 This Is Damaging Your Potential Connections 01:09:48 The Best Way to Receive a Compliment 01:12:30 Talk Time Game: Admitting Uncertainty 01:21:30 Feel More Confident During Conversations 01:22:05 Dating Conversations and the First-Date Pause 01:26:20 Reviving a Dying Date Conversation 01:29:54 Deconstructing the "36 Questions to Fall in Love" 01:31:40 Defusing Heated Disagreements 01:32:22 Preparing for Difficult Conversations 01:34:00 When Distance Is Better Than Talking 01:37:45 Alison Wood Brooks on Final Five Episode Resources: Website | https://www.talkstudios.com/ LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/alison-wood-brooks-7b98b826 Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/profalisonbrooks/?hl=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:43Jay Shetty?

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• 1:26Jay Shetty?

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• 2:11Jay Shetty?

  you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements, and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome.

• 2:52Jay Shetty?

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• 3:10Jay Shetty?

  Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself, because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon.

• 3:33Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today, I'm joined by Alison Wood-Brooks, Harvard Business School professor and one of the world's leading experts on the science of conversation. In her new book, Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves, Alison shares the research-backed tools that can help anyone build deeper relationships, navigate difficult conversations, and connect more meaningfully with others. Alison Wood-Brooks, welcome to On Purpose.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Hey, Jay. Thank you so much for having me.

• 4:08Jay Shetty?

  It's so great to have you here. It's almost nerve-wracking to have a conversation with a professional conversationalist, researcher, and communication expert.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Don't be, don't be.

• 4:17Jay Shetty?

  But you've made me feel so at ease ever since you walked into the room, so I feel good.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  I more than most understand how hard conversation is, and I'm in such awe of everything that you do here. And I know that none of us can be perfect at it, so let's shed that anxiety.

• 4:32Jay Shetty?

  Okay. Well, let's dive in. If someone wants to feel more confident when they communicate, what's the number one habit they should stop doing today?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  I think so many of the problems and mistakes and anxiety that comes in conversation is an over-focus on yourself. And even anxiety as an emotion makes us over-focus on ourselves, right? It kind of narrows our aperture, and we're like, oh, God, here's all the things that could go wrong. And so if people want to feel more confident, if they can truly convince themselves, this isn't about me, this is about us, this is about the other person, push yourself sort of relentlessly to focus on your conversation partner, it's going to set you up to feel far less anxious and actually perform better in the conversation.

• 5:19Jay Shetty?

  It almost feels when we're having a conversation with someone that we have a camera pointed at us.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:24Jay Shetty?

  And in our head, we're watching

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:27Jay Shetty?

  the livestream

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:28Jay Shetty?

  of every single facial expression, physical movement, hand gesture, and we're going, oh, that was cringe.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:35Jay Shetty?

  Oh, why did you say that?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:36Jay Shetty?

  Oh, don't do that again. Like, the anxiety that we're feeling is almost because we have a version of ourself playing back at ourselves, rather than looking at the other person's eyes and the other person's face and the other person's body gestures and hand gestures. How do we get out of our heads? Because it feels like that tape of ourselves is playing 24/7.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:58Jay Shetty?

  And that's why most of us, when we get introduced to someone, it was so funny. I was at a restaurant last night, and I always ask the waiting staff what their names are, and I always talk to them by their name, whichever restaurant I'm in. And at the end of my meal, I went down and I saw one of them, and I said, hey, Katerina, can you show me where the restrooms are? And she goes, how did you remember my name?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 6:21Jay Shetty?

  And I was like, because it was that moment of when I met her, I wasn't thinking about how I looked or who I was. It was, I was thinking about her, I saw her face, I saw her name. And so talk to me about how do we get out of our heads when all of our anxiety is naturally making us focus on every tiny detail of our hand movement, what word we said, or how cringe we are?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  The way life is designed is you're set up to have that hyper vigilance about yourself. You have access to every move and experience in your own life, from your own perspective, but you only have a very limited access to other people's experiences and their perspective. You get little samples, even people we know really, really well, even my identical twin sister. I don't know what happened to her this morning. I don't know if somebody catcalled her on the street, or she had gotten in a fight with her kid, or something, right? There's just no way to have the richness of information about other people that we do about ourselves.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  And I think in accumulation across your whole life, that causes us to turn inward and be hyper vigilant and hyper aware of ourselves. Psychologists call this egocentrism. But conversation requires that we sort of break out of that egocentrism and really push ourselves to focus on others. I love your example of asking the waitress what her name is at the very beginning. That's a very good example of a practice, of a habit, of a move that you can make part of your arsenal that is almost forcing yourself to focus on the other person. Like, oh, I'm going to develop this habit. When I go to restaurants, I'm going to ask the server their name right at the beginning. I'm really going to listen to it.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  I'm going to say it over and over, and by the end, we're going to feel like we're friends. So there are many of these small practices that you can do that almost purposefully push yourself towards other people and away from yourself.

• 8:19Jay Shetty?

  What other skills have you found that help people lower their anxiety in a conversation, in that moment when there's this hyper vigilance of themselves?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:28Jay Shetty?

  What other habits or breakthrough moments have you seen where someone goes, oh, I actually can remove myself from that center point of a conversation?

• 8:38Speaker 01

  So two things. First off, anxiety comes from uncertainty. You don't know how things are going to land, you don't know how things are going to go. Conversation is a perfect storm for anxiety, because every turn, you don't know what's going to happen next. You don't know what your partner's going to say, you don't know how they're going to respond to you, you don't even know what you're going to say two turns from now. So it really is a very understandable place to feel anxious. I'll give one example. One thing that seems to help people tremendously reduce their anxiety is to take some of that mental energy you're spending calculating all that uncertainty and offload it to before the conversation. So doing topic prep, and this is something we talk about a lot in the book, thinking

• 9:21Speaker 01

  ahead about what are my goals in this conversation? What are my partner's goals in this conversation? What do we want to get out of it? And what are some things that we should or could talk about when we're together? And when you push yourself to think even for like 10 seconds, even if we're on opposite sides of the room and we're walking to greet each other, and I think to myself, oh, what will Jay find really interesting to talk about? Maybe it's one question. That makes the conversation much less anxiety inducing for me, and it makes the conversation better because you don't have to do that busy cognitive work, that creativity task during the chaos of conversation.

• 10:02Jay Shetty?

  This episode of On Purpose is presented by Ultra Running. We all benefit from having a little more space. So do our feet. That's why Ultra Running shoes feature Ultra Fit design, giving toes more room for comfort, balance, and strength. They're perfect for running, walking, or hiking. Any pace, any level, they feel right from the first step. Go to ultrarunning.com/onpurpose and use code PURPOSE10 for 10% off. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com/onpurpose. Stay out there. When I'm about to go to an industry event, or a networking event, or an awards show, or something like that, I'm always thinking about, what was something interesting I learned on the podcast this week?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:47Jay Shetty?

  Who's someone fascinating that I spoke to that has left a mark on me? So that if something comes up in conversation and someone asks me, hey, what have you been up to? I don't just say same old, or I've been busy, or I've been traveling. I'm able to say, oh, my gosh, I sat down with Alison Woodbrooks the other day, and I learned this really neat idea. Here's what it was. Or I sat down with this athlete, or this musician, or whoever it was. I think a lot of us don't feel we're interesting.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:14Jay Shetty?

  A lot of us don't feel like we have anything interesting going on. That we may perceive our lives like that.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:19Jay Shetty?

  Now, I think everyone is interesting and has something fascinating about them. You don't have to be on camera, or in a movie, or doing incredible research to have something interesting to say, but we almost put that pressure on ourselves. And I think a lot of us judge ourselves for not being intriguing people.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:35Jay Shetty?

  What do we do with that feeling? What do we do about that in a conversation, or as we're preparing to enter a conversation?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  I want to relieve that pressure for everyone. It makes so much sense that we put this pressure on ourselves to be interesting, to collect stories and tidbits and be ready to share them. But even that, this pressure to be interesting, is very self-focused, right? That's not the right instinct when you're in dialogue with another mind. So if we can shed that pressure we put on ourselves to be interesting, and instead say, I'm going to be interested in the other person, and I sincerely feel like I'm going to just dig through their mind and uncover all the things that they're thinking and feeling about these days, that is a really empowering mindset shift because you don't have to prove that you're interesting. I agree with you. I think all people are deeply interesting.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  It doesn't mean that you have to have these grand experiences. Even just admitting uncertainty, or admitting your feelings to other people, deeply interesting. But it does take some forethought, like you're saying. You are collecting things as you go through life. Who did I talk to this week? What podcast did I listen to? What show did I watch that really made me sit up and think, or scared me, or made me feel really bad about myself? Collect those little tidbits so that when the right moment presents itself in conversation, you're ready for it.

• 12:59Jay Shetty?

  I'm sure you have people all the time who say, Alison, I just don't have time for that. I'm like rushing from thing to thing. Like, I just about got out of bed this morning and had my morning coffee and put on some decent clothes, or whatever it was, right? Like, how does someone make time for that in a way that feels that they're not spending all their time preparing for something that they don't have time for?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, totally. I totally hear this. None of us have time to be sitting down and making elaborate topic lists for every conversation that we're going to have. That's not quite the right way to think about it. It's more like holding a butterfly net wherever you go. And as you are thinking ahead about who you're going to be seeing, you're catching your feelings, the little interesting things you see in the world, collecting little stories in this butterfly net that you're carrying with you all the time. And you're ready to like pluck out the butterflies from the net at any moment when you see somebody. It's also truly not time consuming. So we spend so much time in our lives prepping in other ways. Imagine you're going on a date, or going to a board meeting.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  You're going to think for at least a couple of minutes about what you're wearing, what transportation you're using to get there, what you think the meeting should be about. What we don't spend time thinking about often is what you're going to talk about once you're there. So if you spend even a fraction, literally 30 seconds, thinking about what you could talk about once you're there, and maybe do it at the same time that you're picking out your outfit, right? Do it at the same time you're brushing your teeth and putting on your makeup. It's going to make your interaction so much more valuable.

• 14:33Jay Shetty?

  It's so much more a significant part of that exchange.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:37Jay Shetty?

  What you're going to say.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  I have to write them down, but it's because I have so many things going on in my life and too many children. So when interesting things happen to me, or honestly, it's less about interesting things happening to me, and more like things that I want to remember, that maybe are associated with the person I'm going to see next week. Like, oh, I just saw this show that I thought you'd really like. Or I talked to this person, for you, I talked to this person on my podcast that really made me think of you, right? So it's less about what's interesting, what makes me interesting, and more what I'm associating with the people I'm going to talk to.

• 15:10Jay Shetty?

  That's really interesting. I really like that approach. That feels like a really helpful insight in going prepared with the other person as the focus.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  It has to be personalized, right? This is not just you collecting funny stories and then just launching them willy-nilly. No, it's thinking, who are the people in my life? Who am I going to see? Which is very predictable. And what have they been up to lately? What did we talk about the last time we were together? What have I been up to that they will find interesting and exciting? That's that personalized prep is just incredible. It's what makes relationships great. Can I ask you a question?

• 15:46Jay Shetty?

  Please.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  You said that you often think about before you're going into a big meeting, or to an awards show, or to a big event, do you think ahead about topics with your wife or friends, casual conversations?

• 15:59Jay Shetty?

  I would say so. Yeah, I would say so. If I'm in a car, if I'm driving home.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:03Jay Shetty?

  Or if I'm driving to a meeting, absolutely.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  That's so good. I think a lot of people, when they think about topic prep in general, they often focus on these sort of high stakes, obviously tricky conversations. And I think it could actually be even more effective in our everyday conversations with people that we really love.

• 16:23Jay Shetty?

  What I'm hearing you say is that practicing even for low stakes conversations.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 16:27Jay Shetty?

  Everyday conversations actually helps us build our confidence, so that when we walk into a high stakes conversation, you're already more prepared. You know what it feels like.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Because really, to feel more confident in our conversations, it's about what is the strength of that relationship. We feel nervous in conversation when we feel like things could go badly. And we feel that way when we haven't built trust yet, when we don't feel like we know each other well enough yet to make mistakes in front of each other, to do silly, embarrassing things. So the more you can do, feel good, and do loving things in these everyday conversations, the less anxious you're going to feel, even for the high stakes ones.

• 17:07Jay Shetty?

  Well said. I really like that approach. What's one communication rule that everyone follows that your research says is wrong?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  I think there are a lot of misconceptions around conflict. There is a movement afoot that I am just so thrilled is starting to sort of gain momentum about how to behave in conflict situations. That is very much pushing back on the traditional thought that in conflict, you need to be strong and resolute and persuasive. That's not actually how conversation works at all. It's not fun, enjoyable, safe to be in a conversation with someone who is trying to be persuasive. It is so much more effective to let go of this goal to be persuasive, almost entirely,

• 17:56Speaker 01

  like suspend yourself in that moment, let it go, and focus entirely on learning about the other person. If you can learn everything about their lived experience, about their perspective, why they hold that perspective, the data they know to support their perspective, how they feel about it, you're in a way better position to then say, wow, it really makes sense that you've come to feel that way. Validate them. And only then might you be in a position to say like, oh, I had really thought this, right? To move on to a disagreement or a persuasion moment. But people aren't going to hear your position and your persuasion until they feel safe and heard and understood.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Ironically, people who are really good at validation, and listening, and learning, and question asking, ultimately are much more persuasive because they have stronger and better relationships with colleagues, with family members, with friends. But that goes against both our instincts to be like, oh, I need to be like compelling and resolute. And it goes against many decades, I think, of of sort of negotiation advice.

• 19:04Jay Shetty?

  How do you feel more safe in a conversation? And how do you help someone else feel more safe? Because it seems like that's what we're all looking for.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  It's a really virtuous goal. I think it is sort of one of the main goals. It's the K of the talk framework is kindness. And it really, the goal is that you're making people feel safe, and like you sincerely care about them, and you want to learn about them, not to exploit them later, not to use them and the information they're sharing with you, but because you actually want to know them, because you want to reach this point of mutual understanding and shared reality. How do you make people feel that way? Listen to them. Validate them. Continue to ask questions. And then over time, over the course of many conversations, you show with your actions that I'm not going to use that against you. I'm not going to exploit you. I love you.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  And that's the thing, like not that, you know, the world isn't changed in the context of, in within one conversation, in our real relationships. A relationship is a repeated sequence of conversations over time. And you can show someone that they actually are safe when you think about that unfolding over time.

• 20:16Jay Shetty?

  I think sometimes today, people don't have the ability to not have expectations of others. I.e. most people have an agenda with the people that they meet. And I was really fortunate. I mean, my monk teacher, who's seventy five today, whenever he'd interact with people, because he genuinely wanted nothing from them and needed nothing from them.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:36Jay Shetty?

  He demonstrated to us how he never asked for anything, never wanted anything. He simply wanted to serve and help. And that became for a lot of his students and for us, the way we functioned in conversation. And even a lot of my relationships today are not relationships where I've ever asked for anything.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:53Jay Shetty?

  Because I didn't want to become friends with someone so I could get something out of them. I just really enjoyed their company or enjoyed their spirit, or whatever it may have been. I found oftentimes, though, that people often use those things as techniques to get something out of you. So they maybe do one nice conversation, but then the next time they meet you, they ask for something.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Manipulation.

• 21:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:12Jay Shetty?

  Or they work their way up and then they make it, not realizing that actually, if they never asked for anything, I'd probably offer it anyway.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 21:18Jay Shetty?

  Because I want to help someone that I care about. And often I find my best friendships are where I just feel I'm hanging out with someone that I really enjoy it. And then I'll be like, wait a minute, do you know so and so? I think they'd be great for your business. And it becomes a natural result of having a genuine relationship.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Because you want to help them.

• 21:35Jay Shetty?

  I feel like anyone who's helped me in my career or my work has helped me because of that, not because I've always been like, can you help me with this? And I'm trying to manipulate a way in. And even people that I choose to help, I don't feel manipulated. If I feel manipulated, I actually pull back quite a bit. And I'll be like, oh, God, this feels unsafe, going back to that point.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:52Jay Shetty?

  How do we start living from that place? Because I think we all feel we need to do something to get something. And we need to learn to ask for what we want. So what's that balance? Walk me through that.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  It's a very interesting empirical question, actually, of like, what percentage of the population is moving through the world with this more instrumental mindset of like, I, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to sort of pretend to be nice to you so that in the next conversation or the third conversation, I can actually, actually ask for what I want. Versus people who move through the world who sincerely are trying to deliver to other people what they need, whether that's fun and laughter and having a good time together, learning about them, making them feel known and understood. Almost as a value in my life, I, I believe that that second scenario is ideal. It's how everyone should be trying

• 22:44Speaker 01

  to move through the world. Often when I, I hear people talk about networking, this word of networking, it's almost like they're looking for like tips of like, how do I trick people into liking me? How do I trick people into thinking I'm smart? How do I convince them to hire me? I just think that mindset is completely broken. Imagine you went to any event, a party, or specifically a networking event, and your only goal was to learn as much as you could about the people there, and specifically learn about what other people need, so that then you can go back in your life and think, how could I actually do things that will help people get what they need? My friend, Mike Norton, who's also a professor,

• 23:28Speaker 01

  always says, he's like, the best way to network is just to like, do great things. And then people want to be with you. And then you're in a position to actually help them. It's not about having these tricky conversations where you're like convincing people to like you within the course of one conversation. It's just not how relationships work.

• 23:46Jay Shetty?

  I agree. Yeah, it's not a business card.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:48Jay Shetty?

  It's not the exchange of details.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:50Jay Shetty?

  It's none of that. I actually think about this gentleman who works with us in one of our companies. And when I met him, he showed me an ad that he'd made for one of our products. So my wife and I own Juni, which is our sparkling tea company. And he came up to me at a meet and greet and showed me an ad that he'd made. And it was so good. And I introduced him to my team immediately. And now we work with him. His name's Antoine. And it was because he'd already gone out of his way to make something really cool. He wasn't just like, I'm a fan of what you're doing. I love what you're doing. Please book me to do work. It was like, I went and did something.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:28Jay Shetty?

  And he showed me the work. It was brilliant. He's talented. And so I was like, okay, great. Let me introduce you to my team and we'll get you working on things behind the scenes. And so that, to me, was the best form of networking I'd ever experienced, because it was proof in what he was saying.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  It's so many things. He's shown you his skill. He's shown you that he is able to think about what other people need and not just think about it and anticipate it, but actually do it. That was effortful, that he was willing to put in time to do something to help you. And then he was courageous. He was courageous enough to come up and say, hey, I built this thing. That's so vulnerable to go up to someone else and be like, I love what you're doing, and I love it so much that I did this thing for you. Several things like that have happened in my life, too. And it is just beautiful. It's mind blowing. You immediately want to work with them, be friends with them, know them. Not because you're like, oh, they're going to make more commercials for me, though they will, but because you're like, I can't wait to watch you use that superpower with other people.

• 25:28Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  I want to be near your glow and watch you be awesome over and over again. And I'm going to admire you so much as you do it. Like, bring your gifts into my orbit.

• 25:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  And it's not because he walked up and gave you some like insincere compliment or something.

• 25:42Jay Shetty?

  What's more important, being interesting or being interested?

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Interested. With an exclamation point. We talked a bit about topic prep, thinking ahead about what you could talk about or should talk about. That's before a conversation. Once you're in it, really, all that matters is being interested in the other person. And there's this beautiful truth that even if you have no idea what to talk about, all you need to do is ask questions and keep asking questions. A big mistake that a lot of people make is they're, they're really proud of themselves for asking one question. They let the other person answer. And then they either turn the conversation back to themselves, or they move on from it, right? Like, they let the revelation, they let the

• 26:26Speaker 01

  disclosure die there. The really wonderful conversationalists know to ask the next question. Search for the treasure and what they've said, and then ask about it. What did they seem unsure about? What did they seem excited about in that answer? What was, what was confusing to you in there? And like, keep diving into that. When you keep asking follow up questions, the conversation gets so deep and so interesting and weird and exciting so quickly.

• 26:52Jay Shetty?

  You just said the word treasure there. And that's almost what it feels like, that you're mining, you're looking for what resonates with the other person.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:00Jay Shetty?

  And I think a lot of us are scared of saying something that doesn't resonate, or asking a question that doesn't resonate. So if you ask a question that falls flat, you kind of retreat.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:10Jay Shetty?

  How do we recognize that conversation is okay to go back and forth, and you don't have to get it right every time? Because I think there's a sense of every time someone stops talking, it's a rejection, or every time someone, someone doesn't get excited about your question, it's failure.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:23Jay Shetty?

  What do we do with that kind of self judgment that's going on?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  A conversation is more like a journey. It's almost like you're trying to find, then if you land on a moment where both people are excited and interested, you should celebrate that so deeply. There are so many conversations that never hit that point. So instead of feeling like, oh, it's a failure, I asked this question, they don't seem excited, oh, God, it's over. Focus on actually, oh, if we can find a moment that actually works, you've experienced a small miracle. More conversations have these moments, these little flops and lulls and collisions. And it's just messy business. When you start studying transcripts of conversations at very large scale, you, you start to realize how messy they really are. It's not just that you're failing to raise things that are interesting

• 28:07Speaker 01

  to the other person, which by the way, is impossible. How could you possibly know what the other person's going to get excited about? It's like you're talking over each other. You maybe get excited about another thing, and then you both get distracted and you go somewhere else. You collide, you forget, you might circle back. Transcripts look more like a train wreck than like the tidy scripts that we see on sitcoms or in movies. And so I think just getting more comfortable and more aware that that's how natural dialogue unfolds helps us find acceptance when we have these little moments of panic of like, oh, shoot, well, that, that fell flat. Just move on. Next play only.

• 28:46Jay Shetty?

  You just said that the way we see in movies or in TV shows. And I wonder whether that's what's impacting us so much, because we forget that what we're watching, which is a great conversation, was fully scripted and acted out by two people who've learned that script and now are performing that script. But we watch that and we think, God, they've got so much chemistry.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  And they're gorgeous and they're delivering perfectly. And you forget that they had thirty takes to do it. I'm going to push this even further. It's not just scripted television and movies. It's also our culture of media, even podcasting. There are so many ways that we convey unrealistic expectations of live dialogue, that you, it's so easy to forget or not know that real conversations are incredibly messy. You're listening to podcasts that, you know, gaps have been taken out, things have been revised, speech has been sped up. When you watch a movie, this is, this script has been agonized over for years. And then the recording of it and the acting of it was agonized over. And then the editing

• 29:53Speaker 01

  of it was agonized over. So it's actually very rare to see live dialogue anywhere except in your own life. We have a first row seat to all of our own failings and stumbles and collisions. And then we look outward and we see these like beautiful, perfect, thought provoking conversations.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  That give us unrealistic expectations.

• 30:17Jay Shetty?

  What are your top three techniques for small talk?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  First of all, acceptance, okay? Small talk is not to be avoided or dreaded. Small talk is a very important place to start a conversation. It's a social ritual. It's how we meet a stranger. It's how we meet back up with people we haven't seen in a long time, even people we saw this morning. When we see them in the evening and we say, how was your day? It's this way of saying, okay, we're in conversation now. Let's find some common ground. The mistake that people make isn't doing small talk. It's that they stay there way too long. They fail to move up what we call this topic pyramid towards topics that are more personalized, spicy, interesting, exciting. So you maybe are talking about the weather and then you talk about it for like

• 31:05Speaker 01

  two, three, four, five turns of the conversation. It's too much. You can start there, but your goal should be to move away from it as quickly as possible. It's hot outside. Do your kids like the heat? Do you like the heat? What's wrong? What's hard about the heat for you? You live in the city. Do you get sweaty on the way to work? Right, like ground it.

• 31:23Jay Shetty?

  My curly hair.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Curly hair, me too. Like the humidity goes crazy. All of a sudden it's more personal. And then you can go to a weird, take it to a weird place, right? Like I have to wear my hair up when it's this humid because it would be just a disaster on camera, right? Whatever. It takes a little bit of courage to move away from that sort of mundane small talk, but you have to do it. So acceptance and then push yourself to move on quickly. Bit number two, advice number two, we have to go back to this idea of topic prep. Having even just one good topic idea helps you do that task of moving away quickly. Right? Like, oh yeah, I meant to ask Jay, like, what has he learned from hosting this podcast about conversation? Or what part of his self does he feel like is least represented on these podcast episodes? Right?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Like you can think ahead about questions you think your partner is going to find fun to answer. And then advice number three is ask the next question, follow up. You know, how about the weather? They answer. You gotta dive in like deeper, quicker, faster on whatever their answer is. Curly hair, um, is it? Have you ever tried straightening your hair? Right? Like you gotta go there. So ask the follow up question.

• 32:32Jay Shetty?

  Does that mean we should always be the ones trying to lead the conversation? Because a lot of people may not have these skills. So it is, is it healthier to go in and think, I'm going to try and lead this?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  It's such a great question. And this is one that my students and work on in my class a lot. The balance between leading and following. It's such an interesting game that we play when we're leading and following. Sometimes there are conversations where the norm, the expectation is very clear. You know, I come on here and we expect that you're mostly going to be asking me questions. By the way, I'm much more comfortable asking people questions than answering them. Everybody's all over the map with that. But leading versus following, you should be prepared to lead. It doesn't mean that you're actually going to do that once you're in the conversation. If you're talking to someone who clearly doesn't know what to say, they're anxious, they're not taking the conversation somewhere, they're not taking the lead,

• 33:26Speaker 01

  then you should be ready to take on that mantle yourself and do it. Right? Okay, we're going to talk about World Cup. Let's go. If though, someone comes in and they're in crisis, they clearly have something on their mind, something they're dying to talk to you about, and they're going right for it. We also need to work on our restraint and be excellent listeners and be willing to follow. Many of us are more comfortable being leaders, topic leaders, and some people are more comfortable being followers. And when we're pushed to fulfill the role that we're less comfortable with, it can feel hard. But we all.

• 34:02Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs helps find quality candidates when you need them most. You can reach who you need based on whatever criteria you're looking for, like skills, certifications or location. In fact, people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast.

• 34:48Jay Shetty?

  Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in store or online. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair.

• 35:29Jay Shetty?

  Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are. But it can be challenging to balance style, budget and endless options. I was looking to create a dedicated calm space for my morning meditation and reading, but I was struggling to find pieces that felt grounding but could also stand up to daily use. I went on Wayfair and found a beautiful, solid wood accent chair and a bookshelf. Now that corner is my favorite place to anchor my day. The quality is incredible. It's built to last and it completely shifted the energy of the room. Plus you can shop with Wayfair verified, where product specialists carefully vet items for quality and functionality, so you can shop with more confidence. And if putting it all together sounds like a headache, Wayfair can handle delivery, installation and assembly.

• 36:15Jay Shetty?

  Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer.

• 37:00Jay Shetty?

  Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  All need to work on being great at both of those things.

• 37:08Jay Shetty?

  How do you become a better listener? What is a good listener? Like, let's really break that down for people. Like, what are the one, two, three things someone needs to do to actually be a better listener?

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Let's talk about the stages of listening first. There are stage number one, you're taking in information from your partner, the sound of their voice, the content of their words and what they look like visual. And it's not just your partner, it's the whole environment all around them. Right? I'm hearing an air conditioner in the background. I'm seeing you nodding. I see beautiful decor, right? We're taking in all this sensory information. Step two, we're processing a subset of it. We actually can't process deeply all of that information. And so our minds are quite good at ignoring a door that just slammed or the ambient noise of an air conditioning unit. And we try and focus on the things that spark our attention, that spark our excitement, that we're searching for, that the other person seems excited about.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  That curation process of what we focus on matters. In live dialogue, there's a third stage that's so amazing. And it's that we can express what we've heard and thought about back to our partner.

• 38:16Jay Shetty?

  So that should be our first attempt after listening to someone.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  The first thing to just say and make people, everyone feel more comfortable is like, listening is super effortful. We are bombarded by information and nobody is able to actually pay attention 100% of the time. In our, in our research, we found that people's minds wander at least 25% of the time during live dialogue.

• 38:37Jay Shetty?

  Only 25%?

• 38:37Speaker 01

  And I think it's way higher. So in this study.

• 38:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I'm shocked by that.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  It was self-reported, so people know that, say, admitting that they were not listening is not like socially acceptable. And even then they're saying, oh, I, I wasn't listening just now. 25% of the time, especially for people with attentional issues like me. I think the number is way, way, way, way higher. So mind wandering is incredibly common. And at the same time, we have this pressure to pretend like we're listening consistently, 100% of the time, which leads to this weird thing where your partner might feel like you're listening to them, but you actually didn't. And that sort of comes to light later. So that's the first piece is that listening is really effortful. Put in the effort to do it. Give grace to yourself and others when your mind wanders and there are breaks and you're listening. Okay?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  The second piece is use your words to show someone that you did the hard work of listening. And in order to do that, you have to repeat back what someone else has said. You can validate what they've said. You can ask a follow up question based on what they just said or what they said earlier. In a group, you can paraphrase. So, you know, oh, I heard Jay say this and I heard Paige say this. Together, it seems like there's a tension between this and this. So paraphrasing. And then my favorite is callbacks.

• 39:54Jay Shetty?

  Explain that.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  You call back to a small idea or more solar phrase that they said, your partner, earlier in the conversation or earlier in your relationship. They're just like scrumptious. It's like when we think of people who are charismatic, it's often because they're great at callbacks. They're show, they live, they put in the effort to listen. They're clever enough to process it and hold it in their mind for a while. Like you're going on to other topics. And then they're smart enough and caring enough to bring it up again. Like, oh, that reminds me that you told me that you're going to this World Cup game. Right? Like bring it up again. It makes the other person feel so heard because they were. And often it's kind of funny and clever, right? It's like surprising, like, oh, yeah. It can be a very nice way to close a conversation.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Someone tells you about their guitar lessons at the beginning. You talk for 30 minutes. At the end, you can be like, I loved this. I loved seeing you. I can't wait to hear about your guitar lessons next time. Or like, good luck. You can struggle through it. It's going to be great. So callbacks, callbacks are just incredibly powerful.

• 40:56Jay Shetty?

  That's brilliant. What a great masterclass. And, and what I love about what you said is this idea of repeating back what someone's saying.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:04Jay Shetty?

  You know, I want to clarify for people, and I know you mean this. It's not repeating back exactly what they said.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  It's not verbatim, no.

• 41:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's trying to show, not even trying to show. Sometimes it's just checking.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:14Jay Shetty?

  That's what I do. I do a lot of that on the podcast where I'm like, hey, this is what I'm hearing because, and this, I'm going to mirror it now. What I am actually hearing from you is that it's presence.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:25Jay Shetty?

  Memory.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:26Jay Shetty?

  And attention. But I would argue, and Alison, you know this better than anyone, you resets this. Those are three of the hardest things in the world right now.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  So hard.

• 41:36Jay Shetty?

  Because TikTok has made our presence.

• 41:40Jay Shetty?

  Three seconds. Our attention spans because of our phones are maybe thirty seconds. And our memory has been weak for so long that people struggle to remember what they did last week, let alone what someone has said three months ago. It's almost like we're fighting a battle that feels impossible.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  The twenty-five percent number of our minds are wandering away from our conversations is when people have no device on them and they are actually sitting face to face and with eye contact with each other. Now add a phone or a computer and the pull of the screen and the you're diverting your eyes all the time here. That number is up to ninety, ninety-five percent. The magnitude of disruption and replacement of attention from these devices and screens is wild. And I think behavioral scientists have not measured it well yet. And we certainly don't know the consequences of it for our own mental health and social consequences. As I was riding in the cab here,

• 42:43Speaker 01

  I started counting how many people I saw in the streets of New York not on a phone. There are hundreds, thousands of people that I saw just on this ride. I think I saw two that were not looking down at a screen. I deeply don't want to be anti-tech because I get it. There's so many things that are helpful about it. And yet, the thing that I think we're not talking about enough and that I'm most troubled by is this attention piece. Our attention is so often pulled to our screens. Listening is already so hard to do. I just am so deeply concerned that like, nobody's listening to anyone now.

• 43:24Jay Shetty?

  As someone who you said yourself, you have attentional challenges. What do you do in order to be more attentive and present in the moment? I felt you've been extremely present ever since you walked in. This conversation is flowing. We were flowing even before we started recording. What are you doing differently? Because I think a lot of people listening will be like, Jay, I really struggle with attention. Alison, I'm really confused about this because I try and be present and I'm making eye contact, but it's not. What do we do to help people who are really struggling with that and want to be better?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I find that the only thing that really helps me be very present with my children, with my husband, with my friends, is to not have it with me, not have the temptation, physically have it separated from yourself, even more so than sort of putting rules on it of like their silence and focus mode. And no, no, it's literally the physical distance. My friend Angela Duckworth, amazing psychologist, has this wonderful paper showing that for students, the amount of physical distance between them and their personal electronic device is linearly related to their test scores. Like, the further away it is, the better you do in school. And that's just students. I think this very much applies to all of us.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  The further the temptation is away, the attention suck is away from you, the easier it is to really do this. And even here, like this, your mind is going to wander like crazy. I'm working really hard because I sincerely want to hang on your every word. And still, your fantastical mind is going off and thinking of all this crazy stuff. And that's, that's normal.

• 45:02Jay Shetty?

  What about in terms of, sometimes I've seen this with people that they struggle with this and people say this to me where even if they're at dinner and they put their phone away, but now they're distracted by someone else's conversation, what someone else is wearing. And the person opposite them is just like, hey, I'm right here.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:16Jay Shetty?

  And then even like someone's at a park, like there's a cute little dog over there, but you're trying to have a really meaningful discussion. Like, what do you do in that moment where you've even put your phone aside, but now everything else feels more interesting than the person sitting in front of you?

• 45:30Speaker 01

  The world is much more of an interesting carnival when you're paying attention to it. One thing that I think can be kind of fun is label it. Describe what is pulling your attention to your partner and say, I see this very cute baby behind you and they are doing a very cute thing right now. Like, make them part of it so that you're sharing. You have this shared reality and you're sharing in that distraction. And then show them that you are going to fight the temptation to look at. Just be like, that baby's so cute. Let's get back to, you know, whatever. Let's get back to your guitar lessons, right? So that you're almost narrating. It's almost admitting, hey, I'm distracted, but I love you. This is adorable and notable, noteworthy. You're in that with me and now let's get back to this. You can say that out loud.

• 46:15Jay Shetty?

  I love that because I think that's the worst thing is when someone notices you drifting off.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  And you're pretending like you're not. It's the pretending, it's the, it's the lying about it. Like, trying to convince them that you're listening attentively when you're actually watching the game behind them.

• 46:29Jay Shetty?

  Correct, that's that classic.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  That pisses you off, the other person off.

• 46:32Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  If you think about the two modes of failure, there's one where you are listening and they think you're not. And the other quadrant is you're not listening, but they think you are. Both of those are problematic. And so the, the goal should be, I actually want to be listening to you and I want you to believe that I'm listening to you. That's the sort of life that we're trying to get to. Both of those things are quite hard.

• 46:56Jay Shetty?

  They are hard. And, and you want to feel that the other person's also present and listening to you too.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  If you're going to put in so much work to be with them in this moment, to be present, to be hanging on their every word, to be caring about their needs and listening and thinking about what they're saying, if they're not reciprocating, it really is almost hurtful.

• 47:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it is hurtful.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  It's hurtful.

• 47:16Jay Shetty?

  I think people feel quite upset and offended by that.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  It's disrespectful.

• 47:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Because, yeah, someone's really bringing their presence, their time and their energy, which is the most valuable currency today, I feel.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  It is because it's scarce.

• 47:30Jay Shetty?

  What's the difference between a good question and a great question?

• 47:34Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people obsess about what question should I ask? It's like we're spending so much of our time and attention obsessing about the first turn of a conversation or the first turn of a topic pasture. And we don't think enough about everything that comes after it. So what I care about more is not where you start, but do you ask a follow-up question? Do you listen and then ask the next thing? Ask the next question? I'd like to almost like push back on this idea of that there are good versus great question. A great question is one that shows someone you heard them and that you want to know more. A great question is one that shows you are sincerely listening

• 48:18Speaker 01

  and care to learn the contents of another person's mind. A great question is one that makes the other person think differently in a way that they haven't thought before. That's a great question.

• 48:31Jay Shetty?

  Sometimes the question that you think is the perfect question doesn't land with someone.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:36Jay Shetty?

  Because their psyche doesn't see that as interesting or fascinating. And now you think, wait a minute, I just failed. And you backtrack, not realizing that it's not about that. Like, I sometimes ask quite basic questions when I meet people because I feel comfortable in them.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 48:52Jay Shetty?

  And I'll always ask someone, I'm like, oh, where are you from? How do you know the host? Have you been to this party before? And these are really basic questions that are not that interesting. But to me, they build up a sense of safety with each other and a sense of comfort, which then can lead to a deeper question. Whereas I'm not going to lead with, tell me the most exciting thing you've done this week. And someone can get quite intimidated by that.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  That's so intense. Just yesterday, I, I watched this, this on the street interview segment about the questions that people open conversations with. And an adorable, lovely older woman said, I, I've been trying to open my conversations by saying, what's the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to you?

• 49:32Jay Shetty?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Can you imagine? Maybe you get to a point in a conversation or a relationship where that.

• 49:37Jay Shetty?

  Maybe.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Maybe. And the time needs to be right. But I think it's just, let's all stop obsessing about what's your opener and obsess a lot more about what's the follow-up? What's the trajectory? Where does it take you?

• 49:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I think, you know, how are you? How was your walk over here is a great place to start. Listen to their answer and then like, you know.

• 49:55Jay Shetty?

  Get details.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Get details, get details. Or start with a compliment. Hey, I love your earrings. Where did you get them? Great, great place to start.

• 50:03Jay Shetty?

  I also think that that's where real listening comes in.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 50:07Jay Shetty?

  Because if I said to you, hey, I love your earrings. Where are they from? And then you told me, then I'd be like, oh, tell me more about that store. I don't know it. And now we're actually talking. Whereas if I follow up, oh, your earrings look great. Where are they from? And then I have another package three questions.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  What's the most traumatic thing that ever happened to you?

• 50:21Jay Shetty?

  Or even if it's, or even if it's like, or tell me about what you do for work. It's almost like I didn't listen to you. Because if I actually listened to you, then we'd just talk about your earrings for like twenty minutes potentially, or, or where that takes us, rather than having to have like seven different topics, which, which I don't really want.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  And what's really fascinating about good follow-up questions is that they're like stealth topic switchers. So as we go on and we're talking about the earrings, you never know when I'm going to be like, actually, I've only worn these earrings in really special moments in my life. Or you might say like, oh, I feel really nervous when I walk into J. Crew. Like, those stores and the cashiers make me feel like they're judging me, right? Like, you don't know when someone's going to offer a really vulnerable morsel of information that, like, a conversation is like a decision tree, right? Like, the, the branches of where things can go are infinite. And just because you start at this decision point doesn't mean you're not going to wind your way way down to, gosh, I've really been struggling with my boss at work.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  And it didn't matter where you started.

• 51:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. I agree. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are. But it can be challenging to balance style, budget and endless options. I'm always looking for ways to improve the harmony of space at home, but it isn't easy. I want pieces that can ground me and still hold up to the test of time. I went on Wayfair and found a stunning solid wood nightstand and credentia love. Now my bedroom is the perfect place to wind down. Both pieces are incredibly sturdy, grounding and completely transformed the energy of my space. Plus, you can shop with Wayfair Verified. Where product specialists carefully vet items for quality and functionality. So you can shop with more confidence.

• 52:06Jay Shetty?

  And if putting it all together sounds like a headache, Wayfair can handle delivery, installation and assembly. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get five percent back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. What should you do when someone responds with a one-word answer?

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Conversation is profoundly co-constructed. It is not a performance. You can't control the other person, but it does make it really hard when someone isn't giving you much in return. I coach my students to ask this question that you can ask anytime, which is, can you tell me more about that? Or can you say more about that? If someone's not giving you enough, try and nudge them to give you more, rather than getting angry, annoyed, or feeling awkward. Sometimes people need permission. In fact, almost all the time, people need permission to share, to try something weird, right? Like, conversation takes a lot of courage. It's these little moments of courage. And if people aren't feeling courageous,

• 53:18Speaker 01

  they might give you a one-word answer. So give them a little courage.

• 53:22Jay Shetty?

  I'd agree with you. I think sometimes we think people are not responding because they don't find us interesting.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 53:28Jay Shetty?

  Or they're rejecting us, or they're reserved. And the truth is, they need permission to feel interesting. So when you say, tell me more, or go on.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  You seem like there's more behind that answer.

• 53:38Jay Shetty?

  Exactly.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Right? Like, ask for it.

• 53:40Jay Shetty?

  And that person now gets to feel safe, going back to your point earlier, where they feel, oh, this person actually cares.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:47Jay Shetty?

  And that's completely different to thinking the first question should have been the question that made them feel that.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 53:52Jay Shetty?

  I want to try something with you because I know that you're really into conversation games.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:56Jay Shetty?

  And you've created your own. I wanted to do one where I'm going to ask you very simple questions, but I want you to turn them into a conversation.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  I love this.

• 54:06Jay Shetty?

  So I meet you, Allison. How are you?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  I'm doing so well, Jay. I'm so, it's the honor of a lifetime to be in this beautiful space with you today. How are you doing?

• 54:17Jay Shetty?

  Oh, that's so sweet. I'm so touched by that. I'm really grateful. I'm happy you're here. I was really excited to have you here and been wanting to learn from you for a long time. I thought your book was fantastic. Congratulations. I can't wait for everyone to read talk.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Can I tell you that writing a book is very hard?

• 54:33Jay Shetty?

  I believe it. I've done two, so. And I just finished my third, so I totally get you.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Right?

• 54:36Jay Shetty?

  Tell me about what was hard about writing the book.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Well, I think for me, one of the hardest things is, I've been working on this research for almost 20 years. And as a scientist, you're trained to focus on large-scale data. So I think about, okay, what are 20,000 people saying to each other? But that's not what connects with people. I think most people kind of like, don't give a shit about the science, okay? Hot take. What they do connect with are stories. And I do too, right? That's why we love movies. It's like why we love reading people's biographies. So what I found hard in writing this book was taking the amazing lessons that we've learned from the scientific research and then finding stories that help show those principles in practice, in action.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  What's so hard about conversation in particular, you need the whole transcript in order to really tell the story of a conversation. And you're trying to show like, one thing at a time. If I want to talk about the power of compliments, I need a conversation that shows compliments and doesn't distract in other ways. That was really, really, really hard. What was hard about yours?

• 55:48Jay Shetty?

  So then I would start talking about mine. So like, what did you do good there? What did we do badly? What did we do well?

• 55:53Speaker 01

  I love that you asked what was hard. And I felt like you really wanted to know. I like breaking out of this sort of expert role. I almost felt like I was able to enact being actually me. And so being asked about my perspective as a person, as an author, as a writer, feels very different than, hey, Allison, give us your best advice for having better conversations. That felt really good. And it's like you gave me permission to share.

• 56:22Jay Shetty?

  Right, right.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  What did you think? Do you think it was good?

• 56:25Jay Shetty?

  When I asked you, how are you? Your answer was so genuine and truthful and real that I felt more present in the moment.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Good.

• 56:35Jay Shetty?

  As opposed to if you're just saying, yeah, I'm good. How are you?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Was it a little shocking? Was it surprising?

• 56:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, for sure. Because I think we're so used to asking someone, how are you? And they go, yeah, good.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, fine. Yeah, sure.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  I love surprising people with, I guess it's not enthusiasm, but almost like, um, almost like an extremity of sincerity. Truly, like, I like to be very real with people, especially when they give you the gift of X asking you about yourself.

• 57:02Jay Shetty?

  Yes. And I think you're spot on that. I think if we can answer that one question that we all get asked every day with a bit more depth.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:11Jay Shetty?

  It will open up a whole new world of conversations. And I appreciate you don't want to do that with everyone. I appreciate you don't need to do that with every colleague, but at least one person a day.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  But maybe you could.

• 57:20Jay Shetty?

  Maybe you could.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little, I mean, on the margin, right? I think if I were being a critical of the conversation we just had, something that I'm always working on, I have such a bias to answer things enthusiastically and sincerely that sometimes it keeps me from being honest about what's not going well in my life. Right? Like, sharing the hard stuff. And I think that is also very, very important for relationship development.

• 57:44Jay Shetty?

  You gave me a lot of self-awareness, though. Like, I felt like I got to understand you a bit.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 57:49Jay Shetty?

  In terms of what you were saying about what you found hard about it and what your thoughts are on science versus story.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 57:56Jay Shetty?

  And so when I was listening to that, I was like, oh, I understand the kind of thinker Allison is. Like, she believes in the science, but she recognizes that she wants things to help people and impact people, which means she understands story, you know? And so.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  You learned so much about me, Jay. I feel so seen.

• 58:12Jay Shetty?

  In such a simple answer, yeah. In such a, in such a simple moment. So Allison, for the second question, I want to try something different. You're going to ask me the question, where are you from?

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:20Jay Shetty?

  Which is a question that I think people ask each other. But I'm now going to play the role of someone who isn't interested or interesting or is feeling self-conscious or is being reserved or is just trying to figure out the day or is feeling a bit shy today. And so I'm going to play that role. So I'm not going to be Jay. I'll just could be this other character.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Hey, Jay, um, where are you from?

• 58:42Jay Shetty?

  Uh, London.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  London, oh my gosh. I've been to London a few times and I find the cab so adorable. Did you, did you love growing up in London?

• 58:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it was okay.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Were your parents from London originally?

• 58:53Jay Shetty?

  My mom's from Yemen. My dad's from India.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 58:57Jay Shetty?

  She moved to London when she was 16 and my dad when he was about 28 or something.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Do they still live in London?

• 59:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, they do.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  What neighborhood?

• 59:04Jay Shetty?

  Uh, North London.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  North London. I said that as if I know the neighborhoods of London, which I don't. I'm so, oh my gosh. How often do you get back to see them?

• 59:13Jay Shetty?

  Maybe twice a year, summer and Christmas.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Do you wish it was more?

• 59:16Jay Shetty?

  No, that's good. That's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, I travel a lot already, so. No, I miss them, of course. I love them, but summer and Christmas is good.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  What do you miss most about London when you're not there?

• 59:28Jay Shetty?

  Definitely family, of course. Friends, all my best friends are there. I think London's one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  I interviewed at the London Business School when I was on the academic job market. And that building is right, the Hampstead Heath. Is that what it's called? It was so beautiful.

• 59:46Jay Shetty?

  It's beautiful there, yeah.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  I went for a walk around that duck pond. And you know who I saw from a distance? The actress Elizabeth Moss.

• 59:53Jay Shetty?

  Oh, wow, okay.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Who's in Handmaid's Tale. It was so vivid. I, it almost felt like a dream. I was in this like beautiful park and there's Elizabeth Moss. That's how I imagine much of living in London is like that, where it's just sort of lovely, like, all the time.

• 1:00:09Jay Shetty?

  Not where I grew up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In those places, yeah, not where I grew up.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  How was it? What was it like where you grew up?

• 1:00:15Jay Shetty?

  It was a lot more rough. So I want to pause there because that was so good. So I had to try really hard to hold back.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  I could tell.

• 1:00:21Jay Shetty?

  Because in the beginning, like, I'm so used to like, just being expressive and everything. So I had to really hold back. But what I really loved about what you did was your enthusiasm and your laughter and your self-deprecating humor, whatever it was, kind of broke me down. And it was very natural that it broke me down. It was like, I was genuinely laughing and I was genuinely responding. And so I thought that was really good because your enthusiasm and energy became contagious to me. And I find that a lot when I'm out is, I'm okay being that person.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:53Jay Shetty?

  Because I realized I want to have a good time.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  It's my favorite thing. I'm like, give me somebody who's not feeling, feeling the vibe, and now it's on. Now I've got this challenge. How can I make this fun? For them, for us, and for me. Right? Like, when I encounter people who give one-word answers or are clearly struggling and sometimes feeling anxious or angry or whatever, I'm like, okay, roll up the sleeves. Here we go. This is like, this is what I love. Because everyone needs permission. Everybody needs empowerment. Everybody needs a laugh. Nobody wants an interaction to be stilted or unfun. To me, I just love the challenge of how do we make this fun and rewarding? Especially with people who are not seeming

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  like they're ready to do that.

• 1:01:41Jay Shetty?

  Yes, absolutely. I love being able to showcase to people what this looks like in reality when I was shy or blocked off, when we were both inclusive about each other. But I know you've created a lot of games as well for conversations.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:54Jay Shetty?

  That are research-backed. Could you introduce us to a couple that we can role-play now?

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're called Talk Time Games. There's seven of them. Each one is so simple. You are practicing a very clear skill. And then you start with any random topic. Like we were saying, it doesn't matter where you start. So let's try the one. This is called Battle of the Nice Guys.

• 1:02:14Jay Shetty?

  Okay.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  We're going to start at a topic. I'll let you know what the topic is in a moment. And as we do it, it's a normal conversation, but we're going to try and give each other as many compliments as we can that feel sort of natural. And then we'll say, okay, now we're done. And we'll debrief it when it's over.

• 1:02:30Jay Shetty?

  Are we assuming we don't know each other that well? Or are we assuming that?

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Let's do it like our real selves. So we know each other to the extent that we actually know each other just from.

• 1:02:39Jay Shetty?

  Perfect.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  This. So I'll start by saying, Jay, what do you love about podcasting?

• 1:02:45Jay Shetty?

  I love that I have an excuse to reach out to people I find fascinating and get to spend two hours to three hours with them. And I get to do this every single week. It's unbelievable.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  I love how you lit up like you were like beaming as you said that. I can tell that that you sincerely love that. And I love the word excuse. I wish everyone had an excuse or reason to reach out to the people they admire and have a meaningful, long nuanced conversation with them. That's why there's probably so many zillion podcasts in the world that don't have any viewers. Because it's such an alluring and wonderful practice.

• 1:03:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think it's just fulfilling as a practice in and of itself.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Jay Shetty?

  Even if you weren't having anyone watch because it was just a beautiful experience. But what about you, Alison? Like, what made you focus on conversation?

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Jay Shetty?

  As your research and of course, your book talk that you wrote on it. Why was conversation so gripping for you or why was it so?

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  I think many reasons. I'm an identical twin. And so I had this really like weird, lucky life, growing up with an exact copy of myself that I had to watch, sort of walk through the world and through the social world. When she would do things that were embarrassing, I'd be like, oh, I'm not going to do that. And then I would watch her be sort of hilarious or like blazingly competent. And think like, oh, I can do that, too. It was aspirational. And then also you're just shoulder to shoulder with a best friend who's giving you feedback all the time. So it really is this very unique and lucky life. And I think I've almost devoted the rest of my life to helping other people try and experience that tight knit, shared reality.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  It almost feels like I know what's possible in human to human relationships. And you can get there in your marriage, in your friendships and with your work colleagues. If you learn to relate to each other quite well.

• 1:04:46Jay Shetty?

  I really appreciate that you've taken something that was so meaningful to you in your relationship with your identical twin and wanted to give that to others. I think that's so admirable when someone has a special experience and then says, this isn't just something selfishly I want to have for myself. This is something I wish everyone else had. And I think that's such a, that's such a beautiful gift to the world. So I love hearing that.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's true of what you're doing here, too, right? Like you're saying, I love having the excuse to reach out to people. And that is, it's funny, and this is true of most things in the world. That's like a thing that's rewarding to you personally, but you're sharing it with just so many people that everyone else gets to delight in that connection and learn from that person and learn from that connection as well. It really is such an admirable plight thing that you're doing here. So thank you.

• 1:05:39Jay Shetty?

  Okay, so let's pause there. So that was really interesting to me.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, because when we started it, it's called Battle of the Nice Guys.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Battle of the Nice Guys.

• 1:05:49Jay Shetty?

  I initially thought you'd start at something more surface level.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:05:52Jay Shetty?

  But you went for something quite deep for me.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  And you could start from soup.

• 1:05:56Jay Shetty?

  No, and I really liked it.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  We could have started at like ice cream, right? We could have started anywhere.

• 1:06:01Jay Shetty?

  No, but I liked that. It wasn't deep in the sense that it was heavy.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Jay Shetty?

  It was just really thoughtful, which then inspired a more thoughtful compliment from me. So for example, if you had said, Jay, I like your shoes. I would have said, I love the color of your pants.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:16Jay Shetty?

  And now we're in a Battle of the Nice Guys based on something surface level.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:06:22Jay Shetty?

  Which is cool and it works.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  And it actually makes you feel good.

• 1:06:25Jay Shetty?

  Hundred percent. Oh, I love it. When someone tells me they like my fit, Paige does it every day when I go. It's like, I love that feeling. Like, that's cool. I'm into that and that's a great compliment.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Jay Shetty?

  Because when you first said, let's play Battle of the Nice Guys. My thing, my, I was actually going to compliment the color of your pants because I think they're awesome.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:06:40Jay Shetty?

  I love the color.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:06:41Jay Shetty?

  But because you went more thoughtful, I was then challenged.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  To match.

• 1:06:45Jay Shetty?

  To match.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:06:46Jay Shetty?

  And, and I think that for me is what I took away, which was if I had come back from you telling me how amazing it is that I have this excuse to reach out to people. And I went, nice colored pants.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:57Jay Shetty?

  It would now feel lopsided, I feel.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:00Jay Shetty?

  Right or not? Am I wrong or right?

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  You can kind of, yes, and I think you can kind of play with it.

• 1:07:05Jay Shetty?

  Okay.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  So if we were.

• 1:07:06Jay Shetty?

  I was about to end going, and your earrings are really nice.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Well, I was going to say, and you're gorgeous, right? Like, there's a playfulness that comes from matching and mismatching each other. It opens up possibilities.

• 1:07:18Jay Shetty?

  What's the wrong way of giving a compliment? Like, what's the, what's the way we give compliments that is wrong?

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  Honestly, there's almost no wrong way to give a compliment. Everyone is so hungry for them. We need affirmation and love. We all just want to feel loved and admired. There's research on this. Even when a compliment is obviously insincere, it still makes the other person feel better. And it makes you feel better for giving it. Compliments are incredibly powerful. We, none of us are giving enough of them and stop. Backhanded compliments are an exception. When you give a compliment like the comment you made was really insightful just now, that makes you feel so good. If I said, that idea was really insightful for, for a podcaster.

• 1:07:58Jay Shetty?

  Oh, God.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Okay. When we give, do flattery, it's almost like you always have some social comparison set in your mind, probably. You're like, wow, she's really interesting to talk to for a Harvard professor. Or like, wow, she's really insightful for a woman, right? We should not verbalize those comparison sets because it undercuts the power of the compliment. And it could be a comparison to a social group. Or it could be like, oh, you look really great compared to the last time I saw you last year. Or like, oh, your haircut looks so much better, right? You're comparing them to a previous version of themselves. You can also do social comparison like, oh, your presentation was really good compared to Paige's, right?

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  So there's all of the, we don't, don't do comparisons. It undercuts the power of the compliment.

• 1:08:49Jay Shetty?

  That's so true. I know people who do that to me all the time.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:53Jay Shetty?

  And it makes me repel.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Jay Shetty?

  Like, I'm like, I don't like that energy.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Social comparison is a very profound thing that our brains do automatically. It's not that it makes you a bad person that you're thinking it, but it's not effective to say it.

• 1:09:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Like, the whole point of giving a compliment is to make the other person feel good. And by saying, that was an insightful comment for a podcaster is like, oh, no. It's you just completely, it's worse than an insult, actually.

• 1:09:20Jay Shetty?

  Let's do a more like aesthetic compliment.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:09:24Jay Shetty?

  Like, let's, let's show that part because.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:09:26Jay Shetty?

  I think that's something you would do immediately as you saw someone. Like, for example, the lady who so kindly hosts us here where we are shooting today. She came to me this morning and said, I love your outfit. I was like, I love your outfit. And it was just, it was more of an, I don't know her that well to like, thank her for her work or, you know, because we don't know each other in that way.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  And can I say, I tell you, I know that sound, you're saying more surface level, but I think.

• 1:09:47Jay Shetty?

  I don't mean that as a, yeah, I'm trying not to make that a negative.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  No, I think it's a good, it's a good, this is a really good topic because a lot of sort of physical compliments have, feel very taboo to people these days. Particularly in the workplace, you'll hear people say things like, don't comment on other people's appearance. Never.

• 1:10:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  And then I'm like, yes, I understand. And at the same time, that is the core of almost every meaningful friendship and relationship is just us sort of like building each other up.

• 1:10:18Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Making each other feel great about this moment and what's going on in your world. You look great, you sound great, I believe in you.

• 1:10:25Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  We have to grapple with that. I almost feel like the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of not giving enough compliments. If we're in a vacuum or no one's saying nice things to each other because you're afraid of being canceled, it's doing real damage to potential connection.

• 1:10:41Jay Shetty?

  And I appreciate you correcting me too, because I don't think surface level is even the right language.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Jay Shetty?

  It's, it's almost like more easeful, more accessible.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Maybe levity, it looks like it's just lighter.

• 1:10:52Jay Shetty?

  More lighter compliments.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:53Jay Shetty?

  That, that feel more day to day.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Jay Shetty?

  Because if you saw me every day, you wouldn't tell me every day that what I do on the podcast is special or important.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:11:02Jay Shetty?

  Because it would be so hot.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  If I saw you outside of this, I don't think I would ever ask you or say that to you.

• 1:11:07Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  I would just be like, dude, I love that jacket.

• 1:11:10Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, right, right.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  That's how flattery plays out in our real lives.

• 1:11:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. I genuinely love the color of those pants.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Jay.

• 1:11:17Jay Shetty?

  What kind of green is that? Like, I'm like, I can't even tell.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  No, what are we? It's like a pine needly, who knows? I'm thinking, am I blending in with the chair?

• 1:11:25Jay Shetty?

  But you're not, that's the thing. It's like that green like just stands out. And, and then with the brown, it's so complimentary. Like, it's, it's, it's really great.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  I'm really into monochrome fashion. And so I was a little mad that I didn't have like a top that was the same green. But then I really would disappear into the chair.

• 1:11:40Jay Shetty?

  Then, yeah, then, yeah, so I think it all worked out. What, what made you into monochrome fashion? Like, how did that come?

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  I think it goes back to my sort of like ADHD, attentional issues. I really love simplicity and not having to think a lot. And so monochrome dressing looks so chic to me.

• 1:11:56Jay Shetty?

  I agree.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  And it's like, you don't have to think about, if you buy a cohort as the cohort, as you, a coordinated set or a suit or an outfit that all goes together, you don't have to think about it and it just like looks so fabulous.

• 1:12:10Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Love it. Let's do the conversation. Let's do Battle of the Nice Guys and try and do lighter compliments.

• 1:12:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Were we already doing it? I couldn't even tell.

• 1:12:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I did it.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  You did it.

• 1:12:21Jay Shetty?

  That was me doing it.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  That's so real.

• 1:12:23Jay Shetty?

  I was real, it is real. No, no, no, it's fully genuine. I don't think, and that's partly what I'm saying is like, I would not compliment them if I didn't like them because that would be stupid. Like, as in, I don't think that lands. It was genuine. I think the color is unique. I think it is, I was interested as to why you like, I like fashion a lot. So I was interested into why you like monochromatic fashion.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  What we're saying or we're doing now is playing conversation games. But it's really thought provoking to me that the blend between what, like, what makes something a game? What makes something pretend versus not pretend? I think what these games actually do are just give you permission to practice.

• 1:13:01Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Once you're in it, you're not playing. You're being you, sort of workshopping a skill, but also just really connecting with somebody.

• 1:13:11Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  And so this often happens to me where I can't tell where the game begins and ends. And I think now I'm going to sort of, wow, I'm getting emotional. I want kids to.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Get that permission. I want this to be happening in schools. It's mind boggling to me that we don't teach conversation alongside reading, writing and math. And all we need to do is three minutes a day of playing, playing games that turns out are real connections with their classmates, with their coaches, with their teachers, and really learning skills that they're gonna leave that classroom and use immediately. And the tips, the skills, the giving compliments, the admitting uncertainty, asking follow up questions, prepping topics. They're not mind blowing. They're not crazy.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  They're just things that all of us need to do and need to practice doing to develop those conversation skills over time. And what's really wild is like, it will make your conversations better, yes. But even more broadly, it will make your life better. It's the downstream consequences that actually matter. It starts with me saying, I love your jacket, which I really do. Do we call it a shacket? Shirt jacket?

• 1:14:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I guess so. I guess so.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  So it starts with a tiny little ripple.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  And the causal chain is long. That changes the nature of our relationship. It changes the likelihood that we're gonna talk to each other in the future. Changes whether you're gonna feel great later today, talking to somebody else. It changes whether you're gonna raise one of the ideas that we've talked about here when you're with your friends at the World Cup final. It changes whether someone overhears you talking nicely to that friend at the World Cup final and talking about talk with them. Maybe that creates a ripple of the people around you. And like, we work our way up this causal chain, all the way to sort of community, democracy. Starting with these tiny little moves of, I like your jacket, or tell me more about that.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  That's what I find so beautiful about humanity is that we're so connected. And these tiny micro decisions that we make that seem so small do have the power to accumulate and expand. And I think, I really think that's why we need to be teaching this in schools.

• 1:15:41Jay Shetty?

  It's so fascinating that the things we do all day, every day, for the rest of our lives are the things we don't learn in school. And it's just shocking to me. I can't wrap my head around it.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:15:50Jay Shetty?

  That we're gonna talk to people for the rest of our lives and listen to people for the rest of our lives. And there's no class on it. You're, you're spot on. Talk to me about the best way to receive a compliment. Because I think we may be okay at giving compliments, but receiving compliments were pretty bad. So, for example, I've learned over the years on how to receive compliments and conversation. But initially, if you would've said, oh, that jacket's really nice, I would've been like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay. Oh, I love your pants. Like, you know, and then your compliment is also less powerful because now you said, oh, nice jacket. I go, oh, nice top.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:23Jay Shetty?

  And it's like, I, I didn't even let it land. Like, I didn't, I didn't actually create a conversation. And I think that's what most of us do. Like, I'll be like, oh, I love those, I love those shoes though. What are they? You're like, oh, they're nothing. Your shoes are great, though. And it's like, that kind of quick.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Dodge.

• 1:16:36Jay Shetty?

  That quick dodge, that quick shift from you to me, me to you, it doesn't create connection. It kind of actually like throws it right back.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:43Jay Shetty?

  Whereas when we've been complimenting each other, we've been kind of sitting in it for a moment. And that sitting in it, or you even talking about monochromatic fashion, I really like this. Like, that's what allows for connection and more, now I know every time I see a monochromatic look that I think you'd like.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Like, oh, a casual look.

• 1:16:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly. And so I'm like, I learn so much when I sit in it. So talk to me about how to receive a compliment.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  You're totally right. I think it took a very long time in my life to learn this.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Is to let the compliment land and accept it. And maybe even build on it. You can share more about where it's from or how you came. You say, I love your book. You know, how did you do this? And really give more ins- information. It's also kind of fun to play around with the people's instinct to dodge. And so you say, I love your pants. I say, enjoy the view, right? Like, like, accept it and then, and go a step further.

• 1:17:40Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  That's what shows confidence and security. And almost like maturity of saying like, thank you so much for noticing, right? Rather than immediately feeling uncomfortable and sort of pushing the attention away. I think learning how to accept other people's love, even in these tiny moments, is a, is a skill.

• 1:18:00Jay Shetty?

  Sometimes we say things like, oh, it was just 10 bucks. Like, I just got it from like, what's that?

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's just Target. Right? Like, oh. But e- even that you can say, but like, everything matters, right? Like, thank you so much. I never would have expected to get that compliment for something that I got from Target.

• 1:18:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  God, I love that place, right? Like, or whatever the thing may be.

• 1:18:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  It's just the spirit. It's sort of the mindset of acceptance and togetherness. I need to trust that you're giving me that compliment because you really mean it.

• 1:18:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  I think paranoia about other people's sincerity can really wreak havoc on conversations, right? Like, anything that you say, if I'm questioning your motives, is gonna get in the way of me being able to receive what you're giving.

• 1:18:46Jay Shetty?

  What's the other game that you had for us?

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Another one that I think might be, uh, pretty fun for us to do is about admitting uncertainty. Okay, so we were talking about kids a little bit. I think schools very much teach us to almost pretend like we know more than we do. And it's not just schools. Even this, even this, life, work, all of it pushes you, almost seems to exert pressure on you to pretend like you know everything.

• 1:19:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, so good.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  It's a real problem. Because the people we actually like interacting with, the people we actually admire, the experts we actually want to listen to, are confident about what they do know and maybe even clearer and more confident about what they don't know. It's such a baller move to be like, I don't know the answer to that. I know the answer to a lot of things and I really am not sure about this thing yet. So admitting uncertainty, this game, we can practice. And just like all these other games, you can start from a serious topic, from a lighthearted, uh, topic. And every time we go back and forth, we're just gonna push ourselves in our minds to say things we know, but also include things that we're not sure about, things we're wondering about,

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  things we have uncertainty about in our lives. Let's start from a topic about technology. And we're gonna push ourselves to admit uncertainty. And I'm gonna say to you, Jay,

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  how do you use technology in your life?

• 1:20:14Jay Shetty?

  I'm so basic. I'm so analog. I'm, I'm pretty bad. Like, I don't even have everything synced up. I don't understand how to use a cloud. Like, I'm, I'm so bad with technology. I'm good at it for work in the sense that I think, I'm really fascinated by how AI can make systems easier at work and

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:36Jay Shetty?

  improve what we're doing. And so I've had experts come in and help our company. And I'm constantly looking for other people who can come and teach us, because I don't believe I know how I can do that fully. But I'm fascinated by it. I'm curious about it.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Jay Shetty?

  And so in my personal life, I'm extremely analog. I can just like charge my phone and just, you know, do the basic things, but I kind of like a lot of analog things. Like, I have an analog record player.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Jay Shetty?

  I don't use a lot of tech throughout the day.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  When I hear people say this, like, I live a very analog life, I feel admiration. And I almost wanna know, like, how, how are you achieving that? I think because I'm not sure

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  how to put limits on myself and on the structure of my life and my home and my work in a way that is optimally keeping me healthy and safe in terms of technology. And so when I hear you say that you live an analog life, I'd love to hear more about how. How do you stay that way and not bend to the pressure of the, of a high tech world?

• 1:21:42Jay Shetty?

  I wanna point out what, what you did, something there that I thought was really interesting is that you asked me a question, which was a pretty open question. But then you didn't just talk about yourself and end it at that. And I think sometimes that's what we end up doing in conversations.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  It's almost like parallel play.

• 1:21:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. So it's like, you asked me, hey, Jay, how do you use technology in your life? And then you just tell me how you use technology in your life.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Jay Shetty?

  And then I'm like, cool. But you asked me that question, so I have no idea now why you asked me that, because you just talked about yourself. Whereas what you did was you asked me a follow up question that, after giving me some insight into your life. And the insight was vulnerable disclosure and it was, you know, you let me in and go, God, I feel like my work pressure and the pull and, you know, all of this stuff. So now I have so much texture to, to respond to you with.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:30Jay Shetty?

  And so, so my answer would be, I think half of it is because I don't know how to use it. Like, that would be the honest answer. Like, I'm like, I don't even know how to like, download an app and get the World Cup tickets on the app. And, yeah, I'm so bad with that kind of stuff. So there's that version of me. So I think a version of me is just lazy. Like, I just don't even know how to connect.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  I don't think lazy, it's almost, I bet it's a combination of disinterest and incompetence.

• 1:22:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank you for pointing out the incompetence, yeah. So there's that version of me. And then, and then there's the version of me that likes having evenings and weekends tech free as much as I can.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:23:07Jay Shetty?

  I'm not perfect.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Which is more intentional.

• 1:23:08Jay Shetty?

  And I'm not perfect, by the way, at all. Like, I, I still look at my phone before I go to bed and all the rest of it. So just to be really clear. But I think it's also surrounding yourself with analog things. So I also got a hatch that I love, that I wake up to, which is meant for babies, but I use it. And I love that compared to like, my phone waking me up or, and so the hatch is obviously not analog. It's, it's, I mean, I guess it's, it's very, it's not analog, it's digital, but it's, it's like digital without screens, without.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Is that the thing that varies subtly, like it's louder and it glows?

• 1:23:39Jay Shetty?

  It does morning lights, glow thing, it feels more natural. So it's, it's a digital product, obviously, but it doesn't have a screen. It doesn't have apps on it. It doesn't allow me to be entertained. And so I think I've tried to find products in my home. And that's why having a record player, instead of thinking, oh, can I connect my phone to the speakers? Because if I have speakers in my home and I have that system and we use it sometimes, but if I do that, then I'm on my phone again. And so I'm trying to find excuses. In my home, in my vanity area, in my studio, I keep books open in my office. So I can just pick up a book when I'm in that space, rather than pulling out my phone for entertainment. And so I have books that are interesting to me about different topics in different areas. So I might have a leadership book open in my office, or I might have a behavioral

• 1:24:24Jay Shetty?

  science book in my vanity area, or, you know, whatever it may be.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  You're such a reader through and through.

• 1:24:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love books.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  It's so obvious. I think something that I'm hearing in our conversation here is that for any

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  uh, thing that you're trying to improve, there are structural things that you can do in your environment. Right? You can be the architect of your own world. And then there are things you can do for your inner world, in your mind, to try and work on things. So I feel quite clear-eyed and certain about that dichotomy. Like, what do I need to be doing in my environment to design a life that's good for me? That's good for my family? And I feel quite clear-eyed about, oh, I, I constantly need to be pushing myself to be, be more other-oriented, to be less judgmental, to be these sort of inner goals. What I'm less certain about is, within each of those buckets, when it comes to technology specifically,

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  for example, is exactly like, what is the system I should be designing for my family that is going to be the best for all of us when it comes to mobile devices? An idea that I've been playing around with, it's like, oh, maybe we get a series of dumb phones and it's more like a library system, so they don't belong to anyone in the family. And when you leave the house, you just check one out. And then you just, all it does is call and text and has GPS and Uber or music. And then you get home and you'd like, check it back in. So I just, I'm like constantly coming, trying to think of these architectural choices in the world. And the same with the inner world, right? Try constantly, as a behavioral scientist, trying to think, what are the mindsets? What are the practices?

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  What are the rituals that I can be doing that will help me be more regulated and healthy when it comes to tech?

• 1:26:08Jay Shetty?

  So I'm coming out of our exercise, like, because we get lost in it. I love how this uncertainty game is allowing us to talk about the things we're grappling with.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:20Jay Shetty?

  As opposed to talking about the things we fully understand. And so we're not performing perfection.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Doesn't it feel wonderful and safe?

• 1:26:28Jay Shetty?

  Much better. It's so much better. Like, you're like, I'm trying to figure this out for the kids, I'm trying to figure out this at home. But you're also not complaining. And I think so there's this brilliant balance between performing and complaining. Because I think complaining also can just feel like draining and tiring.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  And like a weight for your partner, you're putting this on them.

• 1:26:45Jay Shetty?

  Correct.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:46Jay Shetty?

  And perfection can also feel like a weight. Cause then it's like, oh, well, what are, what are you perfect at? And so the middle balance of working things through and problem solving out loud.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Together.

• 1:26:58Jay Shetty?

  And sharing uncertainty out loud is, and also not trying to solve the other person's problems or fix your own, is, is a really beautiful way. I love that. I really love that.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  I think that's what these games do. They give you the structure and permission to say these things out loud and practicing them out loud. So when you are with your friends, you will be more likely to ask questions that gives them permission to do this, to admit their uncertainty, and more confidence to yourself of like, oh, I know that admitting what, what I'm grappling with has this remarkable effect on my connection with other people. So I'm going to feel much more confident doing it.

• 1:27:37Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  In the beginning of our conversation, you asked, what makes people feel more confident during conversation? And I think a lot of answers to that question tend to feel like tips or tricks. And the sort of more accurate or profound perspective is that like, all of these things, learning how to give yourself and other people permission to express uncertainty, to ask questions, to really put in the effort to listen, to move beyond small talk. Like, it's really the sort of co-creation of that sort of small, shared reality between you that makes both people feel more confident and better about everything.

• 1:28:20Jay Shetty?

  Alison, in this portion of our conversation, with a few more moments left, I want to go into two really big areas. The first one is dating. And then we'll get into difficult conversations in relationships. And I know in the book, you actually talk about both of these, which I was really happy to see because I think they're the places we struggle the most. Why do people struggle so much on a first date? What are they grappling with?

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Conversations with strangers, with people you don't know well, are different than the conversations we have with people that we're comfy and cozy with, that we know really well. They feel high stakes, they feel risky. I'll give you an example, there's a really nice research paper showing that long pauses on a first date actually are a sign that things are not going well. Long pauses with your spouse of 25 years are like the opposite. It's like a sign of cozy companionship and that you're comfortable around each other. So it's like, all of these little things, when you're on a first date, are just, everybody's like on pins and needles, trying to figure out, am I interested in this person? Are they interested in me?

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Is this going well? Is it not going well? And in order to achieve that magic connection, that spark that people are sort of looking for, it's a lot of pressure. You gotta keep the conversation bubbling and alive and back and forth. And you want to feel like you're really connecting and getting to know each other, but also laughing. And it's like, you're serious, but also not serious. I think nowadays with like, dating on apps, there's also this thing of like, are you gonna stay long enough to even find out who I really am? You must feel this way with all these podcast conversations that are long. You could start at the beginning of it with someone that you truly are like, I don't like this person.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  By the end of two hours, it must be quite rare that you aren't like, in love with that person. Or, not in love, but like, really admire them and find them deeply interesting.

• 1:30:21Jay Shetty?

  Or you can, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  Or feel like you're friends, or feel like, I know this person and I want, I just, that would, you know, like.

• 1:30:27Jay Shetty?

  I fully agree.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  That devotion of time to another human being, it's just very likely that you're going to learn a lot about them.

• 1:30:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  And like a lot about them, even if they're difficult.

• 1:30:43Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  Right? Even if they're weird and eccentric or harsh.

• 1:30:48Jay Shetty?

  Or different from you.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Very different from you.

• 1:30:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  And I think your capacity to kind of fall in like with people who are very different than you is an incredible skill.

• 1:31:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  One of our data sets is actually very specific. The people who do best on, on first dates are those who ask more follow-up questions. Far and away, men and women on heterosexual dates. So much so that if you imagine going on 20 dates, if you ask just one more follow-up question on each date, one question, you will convert one more of the dates into a second date. So one more, one question per date, convert an extra date.

• 1:31:29Jay Shetty?

  Just one question.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  One question. Imagine if you asked two.

• 1:31:32Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  Or five.

• 1:31:34Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Women are more likely to ask questions naturally, on average, but it is equally effective for everybody.

• 1:31:40Jay Shetty?

  Well, a lot of women I know feel that they're asking a lot of questions and not getting a lot back.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:31:45Jay Shetty?

  Because men haven't also been given the space to open up and feel like they can talk about these things in their relationships.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:31:53Jay Shetty?

  Was there a type of question a woman could ask to help a man feel more comfortable opening up on a first date or second date?

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  Maybe they could play the admitting uncertainty game.

• 1:32:01Jay Shetty?

  Oh, God, I, I, a lot of men would be scared by that, I imagine.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  There's, um, one of the tools that we've built for Talk Studios is this tool called Talk Sparks. That's literally just, um, you keep hitting, give me my next topic. And it, it's like an infinite scroll of topics.

• 1:32:16Jay Shetty?

  That's cool.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  What I love about it is like, the topics are great, you're gonna have a great conversation. But it also is just kind of like, uh, it gives you permission. So if it doesn't go well, blame the app, blame the website, blame me. You know?

• 1:32:30Jay Shetty?

  Test it out, yeah.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if, the more you can sort of de-risk conversations like first dates,

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  the better it's gonna go.

• 1:32:38Jay Shetty?

  You say in the book, if the conversation dies, the date dies.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:42Jay Shetty?

  How do you revive a conversation after an awkward silence?

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  It feels like your soul dies in a two-second lull. I very purposely just tried to pause more than I usually do, just so we could kind of start to feel it. Sometimes I do that when I'm teaching. I'll just stop and let everybody sit in it and be like, okay, guys, it's okay. We're gonna be all right. There are so many ways. You can come back with humor, like, oh, yeah. So this is going great. I'll be here all night, you know? The best solution is to just not let the lull happen at all. And the way to do that is to ask a follow-up question, right? Like, keep going. If you find yourself like in that panicky moment where you're like, I don't know what to say next, you can literally always say, can you tell me more about that? Let them go on a little bit more. While they're talking, think about the next pasture that you can move to.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  You have so much to learn about someone when you don't know them, where they're from, what their parents are like. Do they have siblings? Do they prefer living in a city or in the countryside? Why? What are they excited about lately? What are their favorite hobbies? What books have they read? What movies have they watched? There's just so much. You don't know anything about each other. And I want people to find comfort in that. If you go in with this learning mindset, you really should never run out of things to talk about.

• 1:34:00Jay Shetty?

  How long should you wait to know whether you can find out with someone? Because it almost feels like, when you put it that way, you're like, it's pretty obvious whether you get along with someone or not.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  What's really fascinating, and I think a little bit sad, is we can all think of examples with our friendships that where it took many conversations before you even really noticed someone, or gave them the time of day, or really started to enjoy their company. And vice versa, where somebody who was so fun and exciting and sort of spicy at a party, you might run into in a different context. And you're like, oh, they were not nearly as like

• 1:34:38Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  intriguing as I thought. Maybe was something specific about that situation. I think that's just, you know, being human. For falling in love and romantic love, I don't think that we should expect to have sparks immediately. You might, and it might feel magical, and it might be sustained, and that's wonderful. But you may not actually be able to fall in love. You might have to, it might be slower. You might need to give them a chance and give them a few many conversations.

• 1:35:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  There is not research on that. In fact, there's quite a dearth of research overall about how relationships unfold across multiple conversations over time. The science of conversation is quite new. It's really only been possible, we studied language for hundreds of years, oration, right? Public speaking since Aristotle. But the study of live dialogue was really only technologically possible with real transcripts over the last 10 or 15 years, which is why this book was so exciting to write. And being part of that scientific evolution has been really exciting. But it means that it's still sort of a baby science, a nation science. And one of the huge areas of opportunity is figuring out, what does the trajectory of a relationship

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  look like across many conversations over time? What does friendship look like? What are the different scenarios? What does a coworker situation look like? What does falling in love look like across conversations? I think that's where the science will go in the coming years.

• 1:36:12Jay Shetty?

  Do you believe in the 36 questions that find you love?

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  I've used the 36 questions in much of, in many of my studies and research. It falls into the same category of like, I don't think the opening question matters nearly as much as what you do with it. What I do like about the 36 questions to fall in love is the structure of it. Because you ask the question, the other person answers, and then they ask back. It's almost like telling you how to reciprocate and listen to each other. That, to me, I think probably matters more than like what you're talking about.

• 1:36:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  They are an interesting sequence of getting more and more in-depth. But just asking follow-up questions does the same thing, right? If we start from a place of, when was the last time you cried?

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  And then we go from there, things are gonna get deeper. They're gonna get fun. They're gonna get deep again. It's less about the 36 questions themselves and more about, again, that's an exercise that gives people permission and a structure to connect with each other.

• 1:37:12Jay Shetty?

  If you're in the middle of a heated discussion with someone, what can you say to lower the tension?

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  It's funny, so, so much focus in public discourse for decades, and still, is about difficult conversations. Because they are upsetting. They are scary. They are, we dread them. We don't like them. They are often the demise of relationships. But everything about those difficult moments is easier and more tolerable, depending on how the easy conversations have gone. The little ones that seem like they don't matter, the mundane ones, the quick, like, oh, have a great day, I love you, conversations. When you do get to a hard moment, if those are going well, and you trust each other, and you delight each other, the hard moment is much easier to face, right? That's trust.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  And so there's sort of this long-termedness to it that I think gets lost in public discourse. In the moment, what can you do? We, our human instinct leads us to have a persuasion mindset. I'm right, you're wrong.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  That is like the worst mindset that you can have during a disagreement. Because it's only, it's very hard to receive, and it's only going to make emotions more hot and things more conflictual. We have to cast aside that persuasion instinct and focus on learning in these moment, hot moments, too. What's going on in your mind? What's upsetting about this here? Tell me more about why this is upsetting. Most of our disagreements, especially with our close relationships, are, we get pissed off about a small thing. They left their clothes on the floor. They beeped at someone in the crosswalk. They didn't pick up dinner on the way home, and you thought they were going to.

• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  And then you have a conversation that feels really heated about it, because it's not actually about the thing. It's not about the food. It's not about the laundry. It's not about the beep. It's about what those things say about them as a person. It's what they, those things say about their respect for you. It's what those things say about your relationship. Are we the kind of people who snip at each other about clothes on the floor? Are you the kind of person who doesn't listen to me when I say it's important to me to have a clean bedroom? It's these little mundane things that shoot these barbs down to our identities as people and as a pair.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  So in those moments, learn as much as you can about their perspective. Keep in mind that it's really not about the thing that you're talking about. Don't throw more things into it. Don't snowball and be like, and you, and you never pick up the kitchen. And you, and you spent too much money on this. And you did this. That snowballing is so bad. Validate their feelings. It makes sense that you feel upset about that. You're right, you've asked me to pick up. I'm so sorry. I was really rushed getting out the door. And ideally, they reciprocate and say, I totally get it. I know that it's really stressful when you're rushing out the door, right? That becomes a thing that you can reciprocate to each other as well, validation. If things are really heated, it's very easy to forget that you don't have to talk about it right then.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Walk away. Let's talk about this in five minutes. Let's talk about this in an hour. The power of taking a breath and getting space is really remarkable. Especially for people who are like, no, we need to solve it now. We need to fix it. I'm pissed now. Take a breath.

• 1:40:41Jay Shetty?

  I think sometimes the reason we even get to those moments is because we avoid difficult conversations in the buildup.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:40:48Jay Shetty?

  And I feel this is where we struggle most with communication and conversation.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:54Jay Shetty?

  Is we don't have the conversation with our partner. We don't have the conversation with our boss. We don't have the conversation with our colleague. And then it erupts into something much bigger much later on. How should people prepare for? And how do we get better at having difficult conversations?

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  I think this question of when do you voice things? And when do you keep them private? Is one of the great conundrums or mysteries of human life. When is it worth it to?

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Speak up. When is it worth it to share your views and not? Especially when it is a dissenting viewpoint, when it is a clearly going to be a disagreement. I think a sort of public discourse about speaking up often loses the nuance of it is annoying, right? Like, you should not always speak up and disagree if it's not if you don't think it's going to be worthwhile. But chewing on your resentments and over time is extremely damaging, too. I find it helpful to reframe this question as like, how do you set up the conversation in a way that feels like it will be productive? And often the answer is privacy, one on one, not in front of other people, is almost always the case.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Two, when there's enough time to actually listen to each other. It can't be a passive aggressive thing and passing. Like, schedule a thing, schedule a sit down. It needs to be at least 30 minutes to talk about it. So private, enough time, and go in with a learning mindset. And if you have those three things, it's far less scary and far less likely to sort of chew on the resentment quietly over time.

• 1:42:38Jay Shetty?

  At what point is distance and no contact better than conversation?

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  If people's emotions are so hot that they can't listen to each other. There's a really great paper, great research about how people conflate disagreement and listening. It's like, when I hear somebody who disagrees with me, in my brain, I'm like, you're just not hearing me. You're not listening to me. I think the reason we conflate them is because disagreement is so often

• 1:43:09Speaker 01

  accompanied by hot emotions. And when and hot emotions actually prevent us from listening to each other. But when we disagree with people, that's when we need to be able to listen the most, when we need to validate each other with our words the most, when we need to ask the most questions. And so if you are in an angry, pissed, anxious, fearful, upset state, and you don't think you can do the hard work of listening and validating the other person, then you should not have the conversation. You should wait.

• 1:43:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, because I'm someone who believes conversation is always better, but there's a time when it's not.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  There's so many times when it's not. And there are times when voicing your opinion to a group may not be optimal. But to imagine like drawing out all the conditions for one or the other is maybe the next book.

• 1:44:00Jay Shetty?

  Alison, it's been incredible talking to you. I could talk to you for a couple more hours. But we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:44:12Jay Shetty?

  So Alison Woodbrooks, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best communication advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Ask the next question.

• 1:44:20Jay Shetty?

  Second question, what's the worst communication advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Here are 10 ways to be more persuasive.

• 1:44:27Jay Shetty?

  What's one phrase that can help repair trust through a conversation?

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  I'm so sorry. Here's how I'll do better next time.

• 1:44:34Jay Shetty?

  Question number four. What's a conversation friends should have more often that almost no one does?

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  What do you admire most about each other?

• 1:44:44Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful. I love that. Fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  If you are within

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  10 feet of another human being, you have to make eye contact with them at least.

• 1:45:02Jay Shetty?

  The book is called Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Alison Woodbrooks, congratulations. So grateful for this conversation, so excited for this book to guide people through dates, difficult moments, work events, conversations with colleagues, friends, loved ones, family members.

• 1:45:23Jay Shetty?

  And I'm just so grateful for your time, energy and presence. Thank you so much.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jay. Thank you for the amazing things that you bring to the world through these beautiful conversations. It's been an honor to be here. Thank you.

• 1:45:33Jay Shetty?

  Thank you.

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:46:05Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden. A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece, following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask Brothers, and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames, the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants. No matter the cost, watch East of Eden, October 1st, only on Netflix.

• 1:46:34Speaker 04

  Mr. President, my company tore me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all keep the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:46:51Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you're freezing there. That's what.

• 1:46:55Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:46:58Speaker 05

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:46:59Speaker 04

  Digger. See the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not admitted without parent.