Riz Ahmed: How to Silence Your Inner Critic (And Build REAL Self Worth)

The inner critic doesn't just disappear with more success. Academy Award-winning actor, writer, and artist Riz Ahmed shares why success, recognition, and achievement can never replace self-worth. He opens up about identity, shame, the inner critic, and the pressure to perform, revealing how life can start to feel like one long audition when your value depends on other people’s approval. Through a deeply personal health crisis and years of chasing validation, Riz discovered the power of vulnerability, gratitude, and self-acceptance. This conversation is a powerful reminder that true freedom begins when you stop proving yourself to the world and start defining your worth for yourself. In this episode you'll learn: How to Stop Seeking Constant Validation How to Quiet Your Inner Critic How to Find Flow Instead of Chasing Success How to Let Go of Who Others Expect You to Be How to Stay Grounded Through Life’s Highs and Lows How to Build Self-Worth Beyond Achievement How to Find Freedom in Vulnerability How to Live More Fully in the Present Moment Growth isn’t about becoming someone else; it’s about having the courage to be fully yourself. Keep showing up, keep learning, and trust that who you are is already enough. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:33 Rooting for Others Without Comparison 04:01 The Danger of Seeking External Validation 07:02 A Childhood Memory That Shaped Everything 11:42 The Secret to Finding Flow 18:29 Life Feels Like One Big Audition 22:31 The Gap Between Who You Are and Who You Present 25:05 Finding Freedom in the Imperfection 27:49 One Story Does Not Define You 32:07 When Life Falls Apart Overnight 39:15 Facing Your Darkest Moments Alone 46:44 Breaking Free from the Alpha Male Myth 50:08 When Your Inner Critic Becomes Your Identity 52:56 Managing the Voice Inside Your Head 56:21 Why Does Time Go By Faster as We Grow Older? 58:42 Home Is the People You Love 01:01:55 Setting Boundaries to Protect Your Creativity 01:04:29 Finding Where You Truly Belong 01:10:04 Growing Up in Northwest London 01:12:32 Riz on Final Five Episode Resources: YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/rizahmed Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/RizAhmed/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/rizahmed See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet,

• 0:44Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process, and once something sells,

• 1:30Jay Shetty?

  Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. And if you've been thinking about a wardrobe refresh, this can make it feel a little more worthwhile. You're not just letting go of clothes, you're getting more value from what you already have. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees, so you keep every dollar you earn. This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating.

• 2:16Jay Shetty?

  And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and is clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1

• 2:59Jay Shetty?

  Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  I have long, deep history with this critical voice and this shame, and I really think it can kill you, man.

• 3:15Jay Shetty?

  What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Different parts of me in every place that I go to. If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, then you're probably not in the right place.

• 3:24Jay Shetty?

  What is Riz Ahmed's dream?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  External markers of achievement, the award, the round of applause. They don't nourish you on a soul level, and the thing that I'm seeking now is a sense of flow, that moment when you forget yourself.

• 3:41Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to have in this seat for god knows how many years. I'm joined by the one, the only Riz Ahmed, Academy Award winning actor, writer, producer, and artist known for Sound of Metal, Rogue One, and The Night Of, and for bringing deeply human stories to life. Riz is currently starring in Bait. If you haven't seen it, make sure you do. A series exploring identity and the tension between who we are and how we're seen. His reimagined film, Hamlet and Digger, his new film coming later this year. Please welcome to On Purpose, Riz Ahmed. Riz?

• 4:23Jay Shetty?

  Honestly, whether it was post nine eleven blues, whether it was four lions, we've been with you from the start. I've been cheering you on.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 4:34Jay Shetty?

  I am a huge fan of how you put yourself out there, the conversations you have, your multidisciplinary art form. And honestly, I've been waiting for this moment, I feel like, for like, God, at least, at least seven years since I launched the show.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Likewise, Jay, because I'm watching you and I've just been rooting for you from the beginning. And, you know, we were just saying this before the cameras started rolling. We have so many people in common in the work world, but also in the personal world, because we grew up not too far away from each other in kind of overlapping worlds as well. So seeing you doing your thing, blazing a trail is just super inspiring. So likewise, man, I've been itching to get in here and yeah, talk to you.

• 5:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I was thinking about it and, and I want to vouch for this because I like doing this when I've got someone on the show, when I've got a memory that stands out to me. And it was probably around five years ago, I think it was, you'd been nominated for an Oscar. We had this South Asian Oscars evening in LA and you were at the party. It was probably the only time I've actually been in the room with you. It was me, you, and we were talking to Bella, Bella Bajari, who's chief content officer at Netflix, dear friend. And you said to Bella, you were like, give this guy a show, man. Like, you were like, you were vouching for me even back then. You're like, give him a show, Bella. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, this is, I was like, this is so nice. I'll take it. Like, you're the man of the moment. You're nominated for the Oscar and you're trying to get me a show. And now we've got three shows at Netflix. So,

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Amazing, amazing.

• 5:56Jay Shetty?

  I feel like you planted a very important seed and I want to give you your flowers and give you credit for that.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Thank you for that, man. For me, the reason I was rooting for you was because of not just what you have to say, because of course, what you say is, is so rooted in this ancient tradition. It's how you say it. It's how approachable it is, it's how human it feels, it's how relatable it felt. Just even selfishly on a personal level, when I hear you speak, when I see the way that you're relating to people or making these things that can sometimes feel very abstract or kind of elusive ideas, esoteric ideas and. Bring them into the everyday, bring them into our daily lives. It makes me feel less stupid. Do you know what I mean? It makes me feel like, okay, yeah, okay, yeah, all right, I can, I understand that, I get to grips with that.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  And, and I'm certainly one of those people who for a long time thought, oh, what's this meditation stuff? What is this? This is kind of a bit airy fairy. And it actually became such a big part of my life for many years and changed my life in so many different ways. It's really because of people like you, making it relatable, making it human. So yeah, on, on a personal level, I was, I need more Jeshi in my life.

• 7:04Jay Shetty?

  You're too kind, man. Thank you. That means the world. It's an incredible moment for you. I feel like you're everywhere in a good way. I feel like bait has just pierced through the zeitgeist and the culture. I mean, ninety five percent on Rotten Tomatoes. Unbelievable. Like, that, that is ridiculous to even think about.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Thank you, man.

• 7:21Jay Shetty?

  And like to see the kind of conversations it started. It's not just, oh, my God, you should watch this show. It's really good. It started conversations about identity, about shame, about mental health, about inner critic, about guilt, about all these things. And, and you see it wherever, wherever I go on my feed, whether it's TikTok or Instagram, either it's you or someone talking about the show. How does it feel to put yourself out there in such a vulnerable way? Because this story has so much of a correlation with your reality. How does it feel to put yourself out there, almost not wanting validation, and then to be validated for it?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the whole show is about validation seeking and how it can lead us down a really dangerous path. It's very natural, it's very human with social animals to want that connection, want that praise, want that affirmation to be seen. But if you are purely dependent on that external validation and you're not giving yourself that self-love, you can become completely lost. And that's what the show is about. And the show is really inspired by my own journey with that. You know, I've been on that journey. I continue to go on that journey. I, I haven't fixed it. I haven't solved the equation. It's a constant battle, you know, trying to find that self-love and not just be on a treadmill, looking for it from other places.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  So the show is about that and about trying to get past validation. So in a weird way, when people are validating the show, I'm like, this is. You know, it's interesting. I was saying something that is to someone the other day, which is I I've never been great at receiving praise. Just now, when you were saying all these nice things about me, I was actually saying, okay, I'm here with Jay Shay. I'm gonna open my heart, try and be present and receive, receive the good energy. But something in me, and I'm sure you've come up, come up against this with all kinds of people. I don't know how you deal with it yourself even. Something about receiving praise, something makes me feel uncomfortable. And so I'm trying to find that balance of not being desperate and hungry

• 9:19Speaker 01

  for it. You know, you can't live off a diet of this candy, of these dopamine hits of people's praise, but also just receive it and not avoid it. I can sometimes swing between those extremes. You know, there's on the one hand is Googling yourself late at night. And on the other hand, it's like going, no, no, it's nothing is rubbish. And so I'm just trying to find that healthy middle ground because the show is about that in a way.

• 9:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, I I find that powerful because I feel like it's almost like my friend said this to me the other day, and I really liked it. It's this idea of like too tight, too loose. Like sometimes you're holding yourself too tightly, like everything matters and everything's important. And then sometimes you don't hold yourself tightly at all. It's too loose and you're like, oh, nothing matters. No, it doesn't matter what anyone else says about me. And it's like, if you think about it, you're always trying to oscillate between too tight, too loose. You're trying to find that perfect balance of like, how do I hold myself in a way I don't suffocate myself or strangle myself. But how do I hold myself in a way that I don't also just let myself go, where where nothing is important or valuable. And I was thinking about it because in the show, we get so many of these flashbacks into Shah's

• 10:22Jay Shetty?

  childhood, his teenage years. I've seen the show. I loved it. And I have been talking about it with colleagues and friends and people who have all had interesting reflections on it, both people from South Asian backgrounds and people from completely not. And that's what I love about the show is that it starts really fascinating dialogues beyond culture and gender and race. But one of the things that stood out, I wanted to ask you is, what's a childhood memory that you have that you would say defines who you are today?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  When I was about eight years old, me and my brother got put up against the wall by a couple of skinheads, right? For people outside of the British context, they're kind of like, it was like a racist movement, basically. Then they put a knife to my brother's throat. I remember being eight years old, looking up at him. He was kind of defending me. And it was just the, this kind of shocking realization that, oh, I'm different. I'm different in a way that.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Means that I could be in danger and feeling othered in that way made me more vigilant, made me more aware of my identity. In many ways, it set me on a lifelong journey of trying to like, square the circle of my identity. In some periods of time, I tried to code switch a lot. If I've gone to a predominantly white, upper-class school, which I did, I'd code switch in that way, then I'd hang out in my neighbourhood, I'd code switch another way. And I think that journey has defined me. I think that's why I started acting, was kind of code switching from one social environment to another. It's a kind of performance, right? And where I'm at now, and really what the show bait is also trying to do and what it's about, it's about that search for identity. So I'm trying to bring all those different sides of me together,

• 11:55Speaker 01

  not edit and censor myself when I walk into a room. I did this monologue for SNL UK recently and I was working with the writers on it, and it was about identity crisis. And I was like, I'm having an identity crisis. The UK is having, everyone's having an identity, we're all trying to work out who we are. And I said, look, that's why I sound like a mix between Stormzy and Rishi Sunak. And just trying to embrace that, be playful about that confusion. I think that moment of realising my difference and navigating identity was a big one. The other one's a lot more of a playful memory. Every time there was a community gathering, at some point the aunties would be high on Coca-Cola and Fanta, and they would say, bring Golu down. Golu was my name in the community. No. Golu means roundo. Yeah.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Little spherical round object. Apparently, my brother named me Golu, I had a round head growing up. Don't ask. Bring Golu down, it's time. And I would perform, and I would do Michael Jackson dancing. And I would do like just, and honestly, they basically, I'd be smashed off Coca-Cola as like a six-year-old, just like, just freaking out, just throwing my limbs, you know? And I just remember these rows of aunties just sat there clapping, just feel like, this is the best feeling ever. I'm just getting to express these quite wild animal movements. I mean, it did look nothing like how dancing should look. I would just basically freak out in this really expressive way and be affirmed for it.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Quite strange, but I don't know if anyone else can relate to that. If any other kids out there were brought down to dance for the aunties, but I'd say the mixture of those two things, you know? Self-expression and navigating identity is something that could be a bit dangerous. Those two elements, I think, have kind of really forged my whole path. And I've been exploring how those two things relate to each other my whole life.

• 13:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I'm fascinated by those two memories because they, like you said, one's playful and has certain consequences with what happens with that, the validation, the praise, the applause for losing control. And then the other one is actually quite, to be in that threatening place as a young man with your brother and feeling the racist implications of having that kind of an interaction with someone.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  So many people go, I mean, I'm sure you experienced a lot of that.

• 14:10Jay Shetty?

  Hundred percent. When you said Golu, I was like, so I was overweight growing up. So I was bullied for that. I was bullied for the color of my skin because the area I grew up in, there weren't a lot of people of our color. And so I get it, like, I hear that. And that doesn't make it any more normal or easy or better for any of us. It's just like, no, that's what you went through. But I can also relate to the other side of the aunties. I could totally relate to everything you just said, where I'm just like, we'd be at like an event and the act had pulled out or something. And then my mom would be like, all right, you've got to go on stage and save the day. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I haven't prepared anything. I'm not ready for this. And I'd have to figure it out.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  We're all out here just trying to please aunties.

• 14:47Jay Shetty?

  Literally, literally.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  That's all we're trying to do, man.

• 14:50Jay Shetty?

  And the funny thing is, where I was saying this to you earlier and I saved it, but I was like, you know, like you, you kind of, you lived the auntie's dream. Like you went to a great school. You then went to Oxford and did PPE. For anyone who doesn't know, that's the prime minister's degree. Like, the prime ministers of England, I think pretty much every single one of them did PPE at Oxford as a subject. Like, it is the most world-class degree could possibly do in the whole entire country. Then you go, I want to become an actor. And then you go be an actor too. I'm like, you did it. Like, you did the academic dream. You did the, you did your dream. Like, when you look at it from that perspective of, hey, wait a minute, I actually lived every dream here. When you look back and go, what is my dream now? Or uncovering what, what is Riz Ahmed's dream?

• 15:35Jay Shetty?

  Do you have anything that feels close?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  You know, it's so interesting hearing you say this because I don't know if you have this, Jay. If I sit back here and I say, Jay, you've done this thing, you brought kind of mindfulness and this eastern philosophy to like the world, you've got the world's number one health podcast, all this kind of stuff. You're aware of those things, possibly as facts, but your internal experience of it, does it really land like that? Or does it feel like a series of?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Mistakes that went right, moments of hubris that went wrong, a journey that's constantly unfolding that you're not quite in control of. And in many ways, like you don't stop to like breathe it, but maybe you, I mean, I'm sure you stop to breathe all the time. So you stop to kind of, you know, kind of really have, check out that perspective. But when you're saying these things about kind of living the dream or whatever, I guess I don't see it like that. I feel very grateful for my journey. And maybe the reason why I don't see it like that is I've realised that all these kind of external markers of achievement, it don't really land.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  They don't really land in the way you think they will. The award, the round of applause, these fleeting moments, these moments of kind of these dopamine hits, those moments of the little kid dancing in front of the aunties, being handed another cup of Coca Cola in a round of applause and a, you know, those moments, they feel nice, they feel good, but they're very fleeting. They don't nourish you on a soul level, those external things. I think what we're searching for as artists, as storytellers, as actors, but really any of us, is a sense of flow. You know that moment when you forget yourself? It's that feeling when you're not literally self-conscious. And you talk about this so much, right? And there's this feeling of connection to all things and all people.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  And every now and again, in a fleeting moment, whether you're lost in a jigsaw puzzle you love or a video game or on stage performing or in a conversation, playing with your kid, you forget yourself. And that's the thing I'm chasing. It's trying to live in that as much as possible, both in my art and in my life. I want to try and just find a way of just living as close as possible to that pocket, rather than these milestones and these trophies and these things of achievement. Of course, we all have an ego, we need one, I'm still setting goals, I'm still setting targets, we're still living in this world. But I've realised in a weird way, having achieved some of those things, having ticked some of those boxes.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Doesn't feed your soul in the way you think it will.

• 18:15Jay Shetty?

  It makes so much sense because I think as humans, we're only good at living in the two extremes. So one is life is all about goals. It's about the milestone. It's about winning and I want to get there. And then the other option is, oh, none of that matters. I've just got to be. And really it's all in the middle somewhere, like you're saying, which is I need to have goals and I need to know where I'm going. But I know that that's not the thing that's going to feed my soul or make me feel full. I've been just thinking about this a lot lately because I talk about these things and I've practiced these things. But then you meet someone who does it better than you, more naturally, more effortlessly, and you go.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  You're talking about me, Jay?

• 18:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, I was talking about you, Chris.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 18:53Jay Shetty?

  I was talking about one of my friends who's like, she can make like, if she saw a beautiful colored flower on the side of a road. She would stop and grab them and feel like someone just gave her a million dollars.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Oh, amazing.

• 19:07Jay Shetty?

  And it sounds ridiculous to say it, but having watched her do that, I'm just like, that's what I want. Like to be, you know, to be able to turn that really ordinary, simple moment.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:19Jay Shetty?

  Into feeling like it's the most all and we see this in kids. I know you're a dad too. It's like, you see this in kids when you watch a kid just marvel at something.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And they're lost in the moment. You know, there's that classic stereotypical thing of like, I'm trying to get everyone out of the house. Put on your shoes because we've got somewhere to be, milestone, objective, achievement, goal. And the kid is like playing with the Velcro on the shoes. And it's that.

• 19:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  That's the thing. That's what it's all about. It's this moment. What you're saying kind of reminds me of, obviously there's that cliche, it's not the destination, it's the journey. But I think you need to set the destination so that you get to experience the journey. And that's what I'm talking about. It's like, you can aim to achieve X, Y, Z. Just know that X, Y, Z isn't going to be the juice. The juice is going to be that feeling of flow that if you're lucky, you might feel trying to get there. You know, the love that we've got on bait was overwhelming for me in a way because it was so personal. Cause it was drawn from such a, all my insecurities and neuroses in such a personal place. Not because I'm trying to do something that's all about me, but actually because I think those feelings are universal.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  I started, I was just saying to my wife, it's like, should I be enjoying that more? Should it be landing more? And that's when I realized like it's actually the reward was the process of making it was the process of reaching inside to a vulnerable place and kind of offering it up. There's that moment of offering is that moment of letting go. There's this sample at the start of a J. Cole track called The Climb Back. The track's called The Climb Back, and I think it's a sample from a very old audiobook called The Tao of Leadership. And it says, you need to ask yourself, why are you doing this work? Is it to get or is it to let go?

• 21:09Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  That's it. When you're reaching inside to share something and it's an offering, that is the reward, man. That feeling of lightness, that expansiveness. The things you get back from it, they're nice, but it's never going to be the juice like that letting go was. So I'm trying to baking my peace with that now.

• 21:36Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs helps find quality candidates when you need the most. You can reach who you need based on whatever criteria you're looking for, like skills, certifications, or location. In fact, people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job

• 22:16Jay Shetty?

  credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff, too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state.

• 23:03Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are. But it can be challenging to balance style, budget and endless options. I was looking to create a dedicated, calm space for my morning meditation and reading, but I was struggling to find pieces that felt grounding but could also stand up to daily use. I went on Wayfair and found a beautiful, solid wood accent chair and a bookshelf. Now that corner is my favourite place to anchor my day. The quality is incredible, it's built to last and it completely shifted the energy of the room. Plus, you can shop with Wayfair Verified, where product specialists carefully vet items for quality and functionality, so you can shop with more confidence. And if putting it all together sounds like a headache,

• 23:47Jay Shetty?

  Wayfair can handle delivery, installation and assembly. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 24:16Jay Shetty?

  That's huge though to even be attempting to do that, because it's so easy to stay on the hamster wheel. It's almost easier to just keep producing, keep building, keep putting out, keep doing that thing. You had this great line, I think you said it in one of the interviews and it's in the themes of bait. It's even in, I believe it might even be in the show, but you said like, "Life just feels like one big audition." And I wanted to ask you about that, I think it's such a great line because I think people are exhausted feeling like their life just feels like one big audition.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 24:45Jay Shetty?

  And we see obviously your character, Charlotte, he's like, he's going for an actual audition, but then his life turns into pretending like everything has to be about that moment and he has to be that character in his normal life. And I think we do that to ourselves. Is it possible to live as if life is not an audition?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is really the central idea of the show. That's why the show is based around an audition. It's not really a show about being an actor.

• 25:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  It's about this. We always feel like we are all auditioning. And that's because I think of social media. To a considerable extent, the attention economy that we all exist in, that our value is about our visibility. And so we're all constantly performing this version of ourselves that we think we should be, that we think people want us to be. And that's true on your LinkedIn profile, on a Zoom call, on your social media, just as it is for an actor, right? Like, here's the script. I have to behave like a more desirable, put together, successful version of myself, but actually, I can't make sense of this script of life and I'm having a panic attack. And so how do you switch that off?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  How do you kind of like stop performing? I think it's really interesting because you could say, well, you know what? It's about being really vulnerable. It's about embracing your messiness. You could also get into like performative vulnerability. I think so much of it isn't about what you do, it's about why you're doing it and how you're doing it. And I have to be honest, at least for myself, like I've never gotten to a point where I feel like I've cracked this. But I have some days, some afternoons, where I just feel like it's not about me.

• 26:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  I've forgotten myself. I'm in that sense of flow.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  And ironically, that's when things are going the best, you know, when I'm not thinking about them in that way. But I don't know. I mean, how do you kind of find this as well, particularly kind of operating in a world that's about mindfulness and meditation and finding your purpose on a spiritual level. But of course, the medium is often digital and social media. And how do you square that circle? Cause it must be, in a way, it's similar. It's like being an actor.

• 26:57Jay Shetty?

  Hundred percent.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  You know, you're trying to do something spiritual and forgetting yourself, but you're doing it with people watching.

• 27:03Jay Shetty?

  I haven't figured it out either. It would be stupid to say I have and I'm grappling with it too. And that's why this interview is so exciting to me because the themes in bait are so universal, no matter what you do. And like you said, whether someone's applying for a job on LinkedIn or whether they're just trying to make their mom happy or whatever it may be, it's all in there. And so for me. I started to realise that, and you'd feel this way, that as an actor it's slightly different because with an actor, everyone thinks you are your roles. So, right, like, if someone meets Chris Hemsworth, they think he's Thor. And like, they think they're getting

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Get the hammer out, man.

• 27:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, they think, yeah, they think they're getting a picture with Thor. If you see Robert Downey Jr., you think you're with Iron Man. Like, that's, you know, Tony Stark, like, that's who you're in love with. You're not, you don't know who Robert Downey Jr. is. Same with Riz Ahmed.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Whereas for you, the public and private self, there's an authenticity, there's a coherence to it.

• 27:54Jay Shetty?

  Yes, there is in the sense of, yes, I do this in real life and I do it online, but I'm also a complete human being with lots of other desires and lots of other complexities. So like, what I try and do as much as I can, which helps me more than helps anyone else, is like, I try not to say anything profound when I'm around people because, because it's, people come over for dinner party, they're expecting Jay's gonna be dropping some gems.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  And I'm like, literally the plainest. You're like, yeah, just in Man United scores.

• 28:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly. I would literally start talking about football because all I'm trying to do is like, I don't wanna play up to the caricature of what I think I've become. It's like a comedian that just thinks they have to be funny all the time. So I can feel like, oh God, I've just got to be, everything that comes out my mouth has to be profound. And not, not only is that not realistic, it's not possible. I'm not, I'm a normal person. Like, not everything I say is like, deep and life-changing and, and I don't even wanna be that. And so, it's this fascinating thing that I'm always dealing with.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  It makes you feel better, Jay. The time we've spent, have you always felt to me to be very superficial?

• 28:56Jay Shetty?

  Thank you.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  And very shallow. I know that's what you wanna hear, yeah.

• 28:59Jay Shetty?

  But yeah, so I think my point is, I'm always, in one sense, compensating for that by creating moments of breaking the image.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  You know, somebody said something really interesting to me that in a way inspired the whole show of Bait, right? It was this, one thing was this feeling of life for all of us feels like an audition. And the other thing was, the distance between your public and private self is the amount of shame that you carry. The distance between how you wanna be seen or how people see you and who you are when no one's watching.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  That performance that we are all living in, that's actually about, that's a measurement of shame. And I was like, I want to do something in that spot. And for me, in that, that space between those two versions of yourself, that space really started opening up for me a lot about 10 years ago, when I started to become more known in America, doing some work here and doing things like Star Wars. That is when it just felt so at odds, you know, the perception and the reality couldn't be more different. And that's something that's stressful, absurd, but also kind of funny. And so I wanted to kind of liberate myself of that shame, hopefully invite other people to liberate themselves of that shame as well by, by actually trying

• 30:18Speaker 01

  to collapse that distance between the public and private self. So I'm always an actor. What if I make a show that's taking all my vulnerabilities and neuroses and laugh about them and put them out there? And there's so much in the show that's really directly from my upbringing. There's that skinhead moment, a version of it. I had a panic attack once when I was supporting Wu-Tang Clan in concert at Kendish Town Forum in North London. We re-filmed me having a panic attack at Kendish Town Forum. I said, I want to do the same place. I want to burst out into the same alleyway and have the same panic attack there. Even, you know, the British security services, MI5 and MI6 recruiting my character, they've tried to do that with me.

• 30:58Jay Shetty?

  I can't believe that. Yeah, that's a crazy story.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  After I became more known as an actor, they reached out several times saying, do you want to help us with messaging? Do you want to sit down? I was like, I'm an artist, I'm not getting involved, mate. No, no, thank you. But I just tried to take all these kind of moments of confusion and contradiction and try and put them out there. Because like you said, that the gap between your public and private self can feel like a straitjacket. And I think we're all doing it. You don't have to be you or me. Like I said, we're all kind of performing, it feels like these days.

• 31:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And I feel the challenges. And I love that idea, the one that you shared just now, this, the gap between your public and private self, how big shame is, or how deep the shame of your experience is. And I think that the biggest challenge

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Becomes when you never leave the stage. And so everyone has to perform, everyone has to perform at work, everyone has to perform with family, you know, there, there's gonna be places in your life where you have to perform, life is that way. But if you never leave the stage and you feel like your performance on stage is who you are and is reflective of your worth, that feels like when you're really stuck because now you're saying the value I get from being on the stage is all the value I have. And especially if when you leave the stage, you're trying to be as boring as possible. Do you know what I'm trying to say?

• 32:18Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  You're trying to be as imperfect as possible. What is love? What is your safe place? What are your safe relationships? The place where you don't have to perform? Where you get to be the messy, chaotic, neurotic, boring version of yourself. And so these weird things happen. It's like the place of love and safety is a place where and it should be like this, you know, my cousins, they laugh about what I do. You are friends with one of my cousins, right?

• 32:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  And um.

• 32:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, we played football together like fifteen years ago.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? But what I think I love about that WhatsApp group with my cousins is when I got nominated for an Oscar for acting, one of my cousins genuinely was like, okay, cool, like, what is that a big deal? Is that like when I won Regional Employee of the Month?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  I was about to say like, well, it's actually, it's not like winning Regional Employee of the Month. And another cousin came in and went, no, it's not like that because you actually won that award. Regional Employee of the Month, he didn't win.

• 33:14Jay Shetty?

  Oh, wow.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  That's, that's healthy. That's, that's good. Do you know what I mean? To have your safe place be one where those things don't matter, where the performance is immaterial, but it can be lopsided, right? It's where people get addicted to being out there and getting a pat on the back.

• 33:30Jay Shetty?

  Not only are we trying to be liked or validated, it's like what again is set up for is trying to be something you're not. So obviously your character's trying to become the next James Bond and it's not really about Bond, it's this idea of I'm trying to be something I'm not. And I think that is even more difficult than just trying to be liked. Because before, there's one version of you trying to be. Liked for who you are. And now you're trying to be liked for someone you'll never be. And that's like an even more complicated place to be because now you're taking on traits, personality types, clothing, whatever. I mean, I'm half disappointed you didn't show up in a tux today. You know that, right? Like it's like for everyone else, the subway takes you show up in a tux.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Everyone else have to be. This is why I get to be boring.

• 34:13Jay Shetty?

  You're not boring. You look great. But yeah, it's like, but that idea of trying to be someone we're not. I find that to be like the, the golden handcuffs, the drug of society where I remember when I started, when I left the monastery and I started working in the corporate world just to pay the bills and survive. I remember thinking to myself, this place is trying to make me someone that I'm not.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:40Jay Shetty?

  And I could spend thirty years here becoming someone that I'm not, could become partner, could make money, whatever. And that's the challenge people are having to work with because we're lucky we get to express who we are through our work and tell stories and everything. But when I think about someone who's like, Jay, I've got, you know, Riz, that's what I've got to do every day. Like I have to be someone I'm not.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Do you think that we all have an essential essence and go, this is who you are? Like I said, I grew up code switching with these very different sides to myself, wearing a school uniform at school and then shavakamis at home and then Reebok classics and fake Versace out with my friends, literally changing costumes, accent and personality. It was a form of acting. Now I try and bring all of that together, making things like bait or my version of Hamlet or whatever, where we bring these different things together in one place. Do we have an essential center? Isn't it just about our circumstances and our environment? This is when I'm asking you to say something profound, Jay. I need you to help me out with this. What's your take on this? Do you think we have like, okay, this is you at your core and that's you at your core?

• 35:41Jay Shetty?

  I believe that life is more about a collection and connection of ideas and stories and narratives that you've built as opposed to a center that was always the case and

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:52Jay Shetty?

  It can sound Easy to say it, but actually it's really hard. Like, I always say to people, I'm as much in love with monk wisdom as I am with building a media empire, as I am with being a loving partner, as I am with a good friend. Like, I'm like in love with all of those parts of myself. And I'm like trying to become okay with all of those things.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Those things that are seen as contradictions.

• 36:17Jay Shetty?

  Correct, and paradoxical, and they feel like they don't mesh. But I'm like, if everyone sat down and asked themselves who they were, I think we all have paradoxes.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:25Jay Shetty?

  We've been taught to say, I'm an accountant, I'm married, I'm Hindu, I'm whatever it is. Like, we've been taught to have very simple labels, which are very, you know, incomplete.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I guess it's like less about finding yourself means being in one lane.

• 36:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I don't believe in that.

• 36:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  I think that having all these different sides to who we are is is human and universal and healthy, in a way. Over the last ten years or so, I kind of really went on this journey of trying to make work from a more personal place. When I came into this game, I felt like for some reason I had to justify it beyond just myself enjoying it. Now I'm like, actually, my joy is valid, you know, joy. And if other people take joy from my work, that's valid as well. But I always felt like it's got to be a have a greater purpose, right? And for me, that was about trying to stretch culture.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  This idea of one person at a time, one film screening, one performance at a time, opening people's hearts and minds to an experience that they didn't think they could relate to, but actually, wow, I recognize myself in it. It's like, I was a big fan of watching The Crown. And you know, when you're watching The Crown, you're suddenly like, I'm the Queen of England.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  That's me, I'm her. I totally get, you know, how it's this amazing body swap that story can achieve, right? And so to try and open people's hearts and minds to realizing that we're all the same, we're all one, and to stretch culture in that way. And before I used to think, okay, that means me popping up in all these roles that are as different as possible to me. Change people's ideas about who can play that role. Who can be in a Star Wars movie and all this kind of stuff. And now more and more, I think like.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  I wanna share the messy contradiction of myself.

• 38:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  I used to think acting was about putting on the mask. Now I think it's about taking it off. It's actually about sharing the most personal thing possible. And that ends up being the most universal.

• 38:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Thing, you know. Something actually I've never really talked about publicly before Jay, but I did this film called Mogul Mogli. And it's about a guy who, an artist who suddenly loses his ability to walk, becomes tremendously ill overnight and is never sure if he's gonna get his life back. It was an exploration of lots of themes that I was interested in creatively, but what people don't know is that that that basically really happened to me.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  It was twenty fifteen and I'd just started filming Star Wars. I'd never done a studio movie before, never done a big franchise. I never thought it would, that would be my path. I was really happy doing indies like Nightcrawler and Four Lions. I'd suddenly got to be in this film set with stormtroopers and all these big things. I was like, wow, is this, is it gonna happen for me? One week into filming that, I started getting this weird pain in my legs. And I thought, okay, maybe I've pulled something during one of the action scenes. And I woke up one morning and I couldn't get out of bed. And I couldn't walk.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Tried to go to a hospital, they were like, they just kinda like pawned me off. They didn't, weren't really sure what it was. I went to the hospital back in my parents' neighborhood, the same hospital I was born in. When I was visiting my parents, said, let me go and check, get checked out there. They immediately saw what was happening and they were like, you need to be admitted to hospital straight away. I remember saying, I can't do that, I'm filming Star Wars right now. And they said, you're in a very dangerous situation right now. And I'll explain to you what's happening, but you need to be hospitalized immediately. And I just felt like, what's happening to me? Is my life kind of falling apart before my eyes? I ended up spending two and a half months in hospital. I was unable to walk. I went down to just under fifty kilos. Wow.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  A hundred pounds, you know? I couldn't lift my arms, I couldn't walk. Uh, and yeah, I was kind of going to a stroke gym every day. A weird thing happens when your life falls apart like that. When you're confronted with your complete lack of control, it's really humbling. You realise, if I don't even control my own body,

• 40:45Speaker 01

  then maybe everything that I do have is a gift. And I remember being in hospital. Forget going back to film the rest of Star Wars. Forget having a career, ever being able to walk again. I remember being sat there and seeing like a pigeon sat on the windowsill of this NHS hospital.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  And being almost moved to tears with, by its beauty. It sounds, maybe it sounds crazy, but maybe you can relate to what I'm saying. Where you're just like, man, I did nothing to deserve that pigeon coming to visit me. I get to see it up close. Pigeons are actually amazing. They're like a little bit green and red and you're getting seeing the sunlight shine off of it. This thing that I'd taken for granted. I was just absolutely blown away by this

• 41:33Speaker 01

  animal, this wild animal that was there. And I felt this sense of such humility and gratitude. And I've always believed ever since then, it's when you're brought to your knees that you're halfway towards praying. It brings you closer to the love in the universe. And I went on a real journey and that's when I kind of really started meditating in earnest. I had this kind of crazy, crazy journey where I had to kind of almost grieve and let go of my life the way I thought it would be.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  And it was it was almost like I felt like God or the universe was saying, you know, all this stuff that you want, it's like happening for you now, right? Make sure you appreciate it. Don't take it for granted. You know, it was I was being taught gratitude just before being given the gift. My friends are texting me like, bro, I've just seen the Star Wars photos, man, like, you're gonna be in Star Wars. Yeah, I'm in a hospital, desperately trying to get the nurse's attention because I can't get up to go to the toilet and I don't want to wet the bed. My life is just, it couldn't be more different to what people are perceiving it to be. It was something about that experience made me wanna start telling work from a personal place.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  And the reason for that is that I felt a lot of shame around it. I felt a deep sense of shame. And you know, I've never really talked about it publicly even now, but

• 43:01Speaker 01

  for anyone else going through that right now, wanted to wanted to kind of share that and offer that as a as an experience. Because I I felt this kind of weird shame and I felt this critical in a voice coming out that was like, you deserve this. This is what you should be. You thought you belonged up here, nah, you're getting straight back down. This is this is this is your fate. How dare you think you could be happy, you have the things you want. And all this shame and all this kind of like, this really venomous voice was coming out. And I was like, actually, this is the thing that's killing me. The only way to heal myself of that voice

• 43:44Speaker 01

  is by owning it, is owning my experience, losing the shame around my experience, losing my shame around who I am. That's what Mogul Mogli is about. That's what bait is about. Because I I believe, you know, what what happened to me was a kind of autoimmune condition. Right? And autoimmune condition is when the body attacks itself. And I know we're both big fans of that book, The Body Keeps the Score. You know, it was my belief that I was at war with myself. That my critical inner voice was so.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Out of control. I was always attacking myself, beating myself over the stick so much that in a way my body had turned on itself. I mean, I told this story jokingly before about one I'd tell you, which is two years after I'd finished filming The Night Of, I'd still get up in the middle of the night, go to the bathroom and start running scenes again. This is, the show has come out. I won an Emmy for this role. It's done. Like, I should have moved on with my life, but still in the back of my head, it's like, not good enough. You're not good enough. It's embarrassing. How, you think that was good? Get back up there, do it again.

• 44:50Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  So I had this voice in me and my, is my belief that that critical inner voice led me to that hospital bed and I had to look it in the eye and say, no more shame, man. No more shame, I'm gonna own this. I'm gonna create work from this. And that's what Sound of Metal was, that's where Mogul Mowgli was, coming from that direct experience and the universe brought me Sound of Metal, which was also about an artist going through a health crisis. And I was like, no, no, you're not done with it. You've got to go back there. You've got to make work from this place. Yeah, man, I, I have long, deep history with this critical voice and this shame and I really think it can kill you, man. It's not something that I'm done with, but I think that critical inner voice just, he's

• 45:34Speaker 01

  not the guy on the megaphone, but he's a guy who's always gonna be at the party. He's maybe, if I'm lucky, he's at the corner of the party.

• 45:49Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 46:53Speaker 03

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 47:31Jay Shetty?

  As hard as it may be, talk to me about the lowest moment, the worst day of going through that time in hospital. Because those are the moments that we all have experienced rock bottom. But those are the moments you never hear people talk about because they're scary.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:50Jay Shetty?

  And I feel like, when I'm hearing you talk about them, like, it sounds like you were dealing with a lot. For something mental to become physically that debilitating, when you're a fit young man, healthy man in general, like, that means there was a real war within yourself, as you rightly said it. Talk to me as much as you can about that.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  I was alone at night in the hospital.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  And they were pumping me full of a lot of steroids intravenously. And steroids keep you up, right? And I couldn't sleep. And I just felt completely alone. Whatever was going on with me, it was resistant to treatment. So I got a tiny bit better, and then it went. It was going south. And I started sensing that maybe there was some, it might be affecting my heart. And it might be affecting my ability to breathe. And it was, certainly was affecting my ability to swallow. I remember this because the people on set at Star Wars, God bless them, they carried on sending me food to the hospital. And I was having trouble swallowing it and um I was like, am I gonna make my way

• 49:03Speaker 01

  out of this? Am I gonna die here?

• 49:06Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Is what I started asking myself and I started talking to God.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  And I remember that rock bottom moment, again, like I said, when you're brought to your knees, that's when you're halfway to praying, it was that moment of total helplessness that I started talking to God and I said, if you please give me a chance, if you please let me live, I promise you, as much as I can, I will, I will, I will give. I wanna give. And what I meant by that was, and I said, like, I, I just feel I haven't emptied myself yet. You know, I've got more to give. And I remember just pleading with God and just the tears just streaming down my face and just

• 49:51Speaker 01

  saying, yeah, if you, if you, if you just let me live, if you let me get through this, I, I promise you, I will, I will empty myself and try and give from whatever you've given me. And um

• 50:10Speaker 01

  it was incredibly scary. And the next morning, I remember they said, they said that they might have to start a really intensive kind of chemo on me.

• 50:22Jay Shetty?

  God, man, I mean, that's like, it's a harrowing time like in your life. Like, that's like just

• 50:28Jay Shetty?

  when I, when I hear about, cause I, I not, not, it wasn't life threatening, but my version of the mental turning into physical was I developed, while I was a monk, I developed polyps in my throat. And so these get on your vocal cords and people generally get it from like vocal exhaustion or lack of vocal rest or

• 50:49Jay Shetty?

  Some sort of vocal disruption. And I think for us in the monastery, it was mantra, it was chanting, it was, you know, and and I do not have a singing voice for whatever it's worth, but I think my my vocal range is pretty limited. And I was probably straining it. I don't even know how it happened. That's that's the physical version. But we all know there's what from what we're talking about, there's so much more to it, whether it's a lack of expression, a lack of authentic communication of where you're at. And I remember having to get them lasered off my throat. And so I went into surgery, got them lasered off. It's it's it's pretty like, you know, you don't feel it, you're sedated. It's not, like I said, it's not life threatening. But like for months after you're drinking from a straw, because you can't eat proper food.

• 51:30Jay Shetty?

  And you can't talk. So I have a whiteboard. And I remember moving in back with my parents at the time, because I couldn't be in the monastery. And I would literally write to my mom, like what I could eat, water, whatever it was. And I'm literally carrying a whiteboard around my neck, basically, and just writing stuff to my family. Because I can't say anything. And at that time, I'm like, I give speeches at colleges, I give talks to the temple. And I'm I'm like, speaking is my thing. Like, that's what I do.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 51:58Jay Shetty?

  And it's all gone.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 52:00Jay Shetty?

  And it's disappeared. And I can't even say anything. Like, I'm I'm I'm writing words on a whiteboard. And I remember feeling very similarly to what you're saying about seeing that pigeon, praying to God. Like, I can I can relate to it. And again, like, mine was not life threatening. It wasn't, you know, there's a difference between not speaking and not walking.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  No, but it's profound because it's your your gift turns to your curse.

• 52:22Jay Shetty?

  Hundred percent.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  And it's like the thing that you are blessed with, which is this ability to communicate and this desire, this purpose you have. That is the thing that's taken from you.

• 52:32Jay Shetty?

  Correct.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  And so how has that affected the way that you, I mean, did that just make you even more motivated to speak? And to choose your words and think about your words?

• 52:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I had to go to a vocal coach to train and all of that kind of stuff. And they said that you would get your, you know, your natural voice would come back. It came back softer. I'd lost the raspiness and the depth of my voice. I sounded different. Now, now I sound back to normal. If anything, maybe it's a bit better now. So I'm gonna take it. But like, at the time, it was like, I was like, God, I'm gonna have to learn how to talk again. Like, that's how it felt. And what it did for me was a few things. I remember talking to one spiritual guide at the time and I said to him, I said, I can't speak to God out loud anymore. Like I can't hear myself talk to God. I can't chant. I can't, mantra is such a big part of Eastern tradition. I can't, I can't chant out loud and you're meant to chant out loud. So you can hear the

• 53:24Jay Shetty?

  spiritual sacred sound. Like that's our practice. And he goes to me, he goes, God's teaching you to chant with your heart. Like, and I was like, God, like that, that, at that time, I just remember that, like, hitting me. It was like, he was like, yeah, you think, well, you think you talk to God out loud. Like, you think that's what God listens to. He was like, God's listening to this. Like, God knows what's going on in here. It's got nothing to do with sound and voice. And I was like, wow, that's, that's huge to learn to talk to God with my heart. Like, what does that even mean?

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:53Jay Shetty?

  And then at the same time, it's what you said, where it was like, okay, now that my voice is starting to come back, how am I going to respect the fact that I have a voice? Like, to, you know, to not take it for granted, to be like, how can you feel that this ease with which we're talking right now and we're communicating and I can hear you, you can hear me, when that goes away, God, life feels colorless and, you know, and it loses so much value. And so, again, and, you know, I, we were talking about this offline as well, like when you, of course, you forget all this.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  You start taking all the gifts for granted again. You probably have to in a way to try and kind of move through the trauma. But I don't know if you have moments where you remember that and you just sink into that deep sense of humility and gratitude and.

• 54:37Jay Shetty?

  Humility is the word. I mean, you're taking me back there. Actually, I don't think I've actually thought about this. I don't even, I don't think I've talked about it publicly, to be honest with myself. I don't, I can't remember if I've actually talked about it. And I'm being reminded of your experience, like your, your experience triggering me going, yeah, like that, you know.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  That was intense.

• 54:54Jay Shetty?

  That was intense. And, and I.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  That was traumatic.

• 54:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it was traumatic. But all of that to say with all of yours, talk to me about, where does the shame come from going through something like that and then not wanting to share it? Because I think there's the pain of going through something traumatic and there's, then there's the pain of communicating it to a group of people who may or may not actually understand what the hell you just went through.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:20Jay Shetty?

  But talk to me about where was the shame for you in wanting to share that and what kept it in for so long?

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I, I will, but can I first tell you something about your voice?

• 55:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Um, I love your voice. Uh, but here's the thing, when I sometimes I'm walking down the street, it doesn't happen to me a lot, but it's happened to me enough times I wanna mention it. Sometimes people stop me and they say, say I'm on the phone or whatever, they've heard me talking, they go, sorry, can I just tell you, you sound exactly like Jay Shetty. That is hilarious. I'll take that as a compliment. I take it as a compliment, bro. You'd make an amazing M C. I think you got a great, you got a great voice for that. They used to have your mixtapes in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, man. So I just wanna, gonna give your voice its flowers. Um, yeah, the shame, you know, I think the, the show is about this idea of wanting to be James Bond.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  I wanted that. I mean, who, who doesn't? Or if not exactly that, a version of that. Now, what I mean by that is like, you wanna aspire to this archetype of, of heroism. And that is about being this kind of invulnerable, powerful, alpha male, whatever that means. Although hilariously, I mean, the alpha male in a wolf pack is the animal that lets the kids beat it up the most. You know, and is like the most chill and the least aggressive, right? But we have these ideas in our culture and I guess I didn't want to, I already felt like I don't fit the mold. You know, for all the reasons we've already discussed, to be experienced growing up. I don't want another strike against me of people somehow thinking I'm weak.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  You know, or I'm fragile, or I, whereas now I look at it as like, well, actually I feel like I showed a lot of resources and strength and grit, mental and physical. You know, teaching yourself to walk again or lift your arms or whatever, that, that takes strength. And I can say that now, the time I just saw the glass half empty of it and I thought, I don't even want anyone to think that I'm weak, that I'm broken, that I'm not up to, up to the mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in a way, I actually think that there's some truth in that, that I think the culture has shifted a little bit more. You know, I think we do, cause of spaces like this, man, that you've created and other people have created, where we can talk and celebrate our vulnerabilities a bit more.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, I mean, it's talking about this right now, my body right now is kind of like going, Oh, God, yeah. Did I just say all this? Did I do all this? But I also feel a bit lighter. It's that thing of digging inside, like I said, it's an offering, you know? If there's someone going through something like this, that's watching this. If it normalizes their experience, if it makes them feel less alone, that's beautiful, you know? And I want to share that. I think it was that really, I think it was kind of my. Again, it was the distance between that public and private self. And I felt that if my public self gets too close to my reality, it'll fall apart again.

• 58:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, well said, yeah, no, I, I really believe you sharing that, especially talking about perception in that externally, everyone can be like, you're winning, your career's been amazing. You won Emmys, like Oscar, you know, all this stuff. And it's like to actually go, oh, wait a minute. Even him, like, there's, there's stuff he's going through. Not only is affecting him mentally, physically, and that mental, physical connection that I want people to make here, which I know you do too, which is this idea that a lot of what we're going through physically is coming from some sort of emotional block, mental block. And in bait, you visualize that as this severed pig's head, which, which is this Patrick Stewart voice severed pig's head.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  So yes, the critical inner voice in bait is a severed pig's head. It was sent to the family as a racist attack. And it's about, I guess, how we can internalize the criticism of us, internalize the prejudice. So it starts to become almost like his best friend. Like, and for me, for a long time, my critical inner voice was something I didn't want to lose. I was worried that if I make peace with it, or turn the volume down on that too much, I'll get lazy, I'll get complacent. I remember even when, when we won an Oscar for our short film. It's so funny, it was almost like the Oscar was looking at me going, you ain't shit. The kind of elation lasted as long as me going there,

• 59:43Speaker 01

  collecting it, going backstage, going to the toilet, coming back and sitting down again. By the time I sit down, in fact, I would say my critical inner voice was at an all time high when I was sat there holding that Oscar in my hand. Cause it was almost like a survival mechanism. My brain was going, or that voice, that part of my brain was going, don't put your feet up now. Don't think you can get complacent, don't kick back. I have programmed you to strive, not to savor. And so you now are going to really crack the whip.

• 1:00:14Jay Shetty?

  It was just going crazy. I remember sitting there in that seat, having the most aggressively critical thoughts to myself. It was like out of control.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:26Jay Shetty?

  But in a show, it's played by severed pig's head. I want you to know, there was a moment, a long moment where I was like, it has to be Jay Shae. We ended up getting Sir Patrick Stewart.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:00:38Jay Shetty?

  So you lost the role to someone who's, I thought it has to be a really kind of super established actor, one of the greats. So it makes Shah, my character, feel insecure.

• 1:00:50Jay Shetty?

  Actually, happy to listen.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  What if you were my evil twi- I mean, there's not, it's slight resemblance, maybe.

• 1:00:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  I was like, yeah, what if it should be Jay? Jay should be my critical inner voice.

• 1:01:00Jay Shetty?

  That would be hilarious. That would have been so funny. But no, Sir Patrick Stewart was, was the right choice. It, it was one of those moments in the, in the show where you're like, what? Like, it's such a surprise.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Right, right, yeah.

• 1:01:11Jay Shetty?

  Talk to me about that because I think what you just identified is the high performers and overachievers curse, where the inner critic is what drives you to extraordinary success.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Do you think? Usually, right?

• 1:01:24Jay Shetty?

  Usually, from everyone I've interviewed, whether it's basketball players, whether it's tennis players, whether it's F1 drivers.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  They all say the same thing, basically.

• 1:01:33Jay Shetty?

  The athletes who I think are playing at the levels where every inch counts and every minute matters, they all have this crazy inner critic, which they have to learn what to do with it because in the moment, they have to believe that this point is the only thing that matters. And then as soon as they win or lose the point, they have to believe that point doesn't matter at all.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:01:57Jay Shetty?

  Because that's the switch there. So their code switch or that is that is like, when I'm playing this point, this is the most important point in the world. And then as soon as the point's over, whether I win or lost the point, that point's irrelevant.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  So you need the inner critic and the inner cheerleader.

• 1:02:09Jay Shetty?

  Totally. You've got to.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  And you've got to basically be able to toggle between them both. Yeah, it's, it's, I don't want to believe that it, the inner critic is the jet fuel. I want to believe that it's like one of the engines, right? But there's got to be that other engine because, you know, I also feel that, yes, I feel like the inner critic or that fear of failure, the possibility of shame, all these things can drive us. But I think it can also make us quite tense. And I think our best performances come when we're in a state of flow. And that is about, like you were saying, too tight, too loose. That is also about being kind of loose. That's about joy. It's about openness and receptivity and play and curiosity.

• 1:02:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  All those things that the critic does not really give us. And so, yeah, for me, it's like on that mixing desk of the voices in my head. You don't want to hear the voices in my head, Jay. There's a lot of them. You're one of them. But I'm trying to just find that right balance and find the right moment to bring up that cheerleader versus the critic.

• 1:03:10Jay Shetty?

  I'm glad you said that because I would agree with you and I would encourage people to go there, especially if you're a high achiever, a high performer, or even if you have goals and you think the only way to get there is to make yourself feel bad and beat yourself up. And to actually go, well, that isn't the way I want to get there. There is a way of getting there that isn't that. That just seems to be the most common way that a lot of successful people have got there, but then they didn't like where they got either.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  I think it can get you to a place, but then it will kill you.

• 1:03:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly, yeah.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  You know, people would whip horses to like make them run faster. You're gonna kill that horse at some point, man. You're gonna really hurt it.

• 1:03:48Jay Shetty?

  It's gonna get exhausted, yeah. That's a great visual.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  I'm trying to find a way of something else kind of taking over. And honestly, I kind of feel like, what you were talking about before with kids, that's been a great teacher for me. You know, play. Just on a really basic level, play. The joy of that, the curiosity of it, actually not being in control.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  That's been a great teacher for me. Not least because actually I think kids, you can't control them really. I mean, they humble you every day, right? They totally kind of, you know, there's that thing where you don't raise your kids, they raise you.

• 1:04:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  So I don't know, I think that that's kind of something I'm trying to pass the baton from the critic to the cheerleader or to the child.

• 1:04:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, to the child, I like that. Yeah, there's this, there's this beautiful quote from George Bernard Shaw that I love where he said, we don't. Stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  Oof.

• 1:04:45Jay Shetty?

  And I love that. Like, it just, it's so good. Cause I'm like, yeah, like, that's why we feel old is because we stop playing. We stop being curious. We stop marveling at the greatness of a Velcro shoe. That simplicity. And that's why I was, I was looking into it actually, because that's why, as we get older, I'm sure you feel this way too. Time just flies. Every adult I talk to, they're like, yeah, God, time's just going faster.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Apparently that is a proven fact, that our brains subjectively experience time differently as we get older.

• 1:05:14Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  So in terms of subjectively, the spread of our life. Um, and how it feels to our brains is fifty percent of our life is lived between the age of zero and eight years old.

• 1:05:26Jay Shetty?

  Which is crazy.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  That's like half of it. Cause of how a day feels when you're a little kid. How expansive and huge it can feel. And how quick a year can feel towards the tail end. So yeah. As you're starting to feel more and more conscious of time and its passage, like, what is that doing for you? Is that just means streamlining and focusing on the things you really want to, or how are you managing with that?

• 1:05:52Jay Shetty?

  At one point in my life, I listened to Steve Jobs's Stanford commencement speech every day for nine months.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:05:57Jay Shetty?

  In my opinion, it's the best speech ever given because he also knew he was gonna die. So I feel like when someone knows they're gonna die.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  It's that death awareness meditation, right? It's a big part of the kind of.

• 1:06:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  When I stuck tradition in Eastern philosophy.

• 1:06:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And it's like, every word mattered. Like, he didn't, that wasn't performance. If you, if you see him do it, he also just reads it like deadpan. Like, there's no performance, there's no emphasis, there's no poet, like, he's not trying.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  It's just truth.

• 1:06:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, cause he knows he's gonna die. So it's like, there's a, so I listened to that and there's a line in it that just goes like, something like, and I'll butcher it so people should listen to the real thing, but. He, he literally says something like, every few days, if.

• 1:06:39Jay Shetty?

  I I check in with myself and I ask myself, I look in the mirror like, am I doing what I want to do if this was my last day? And if after three or four days, the answer isn't, this is what I should be doing, then I know I've got something to change. And I'm like, I don't think we can all live like that all the time. I think, I think there's, you know, people have responsibilities and pressures and whatever. But I think there's truth to the idea of, did you call the person that you would call if it was your last day? Did you talk to your partner in the way you would if it was the last time you were going to talk to them? Did you look at your kid before you went out to work in a way that you would want them to know was how much you loved them? Like, I think all those things do matter. That applies even if you've got to go to a job every day and you've got to say hello to people. It's like, did you behave with everyone in the way that you want to be remembered? I think

• 1:07:24Jay Shetty?

  that is important to me. And I think it's streamlining. I think it's focusing. I think it's all those things. But really, it's more about, it's less about what I do and it's more about who I am in that what is the spirit of my being? I've noticed versions of that where like, in order to become successful, I've had to be more technical, I've had to be more strategic, I've had to be more organized, I've had to be whatever, whatever the words are. And then I go, I'm just a guy who loves the heart. Like, I'm, that's who I am at the core of like, I'm just a guy who just wants to like, love and be loved. Like, that's who I am at my essence. And who are the people who can take me back to that? In this crazy world where I have to be all these other versions of myself in order to do the thing? People always say like, what's your favorite place?

• 1:08:09Jay Shetty?

  And I'm like, I'm never looking for my favorite place. I'm looking for my favorite people. Because as long as I'm with my favorite people, it doesn't matter where I am. And so I'm looking for people actively, always.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:20Jay Shetty?

  That keep taking me back to that place within my heart and can do it quicker, more beautifully, more gracefully, more elegantly. And I find I'm, some of them are old friends that I've had for twenty, twenty-five years. And some of them are new people that I just met last year.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  People who can make you more yourself. Yeah, yeah. People who can make you forget yourself.

• 1:08:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, people who go beyond the avatar.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:44Jay Shetty?

  Like, the, the person who's not getting you to play up to your avatar or your, you know, what? And so I'm looking, I'm always looking to not collectors and there's, I don't need a million of those people. But you've got to find a few people that you just drop in, your nervous system calms down. You know, the active mind switches off.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  So important, so important. It's interesting you say that because like, you know, we're in L A right now. And I had a very kind of like, you're making me think about this because I I had this narrative where I was like, I don't like L A. And you're actually making me think about this is like, there are periods of time when I've adored L A. And the thing that was surprising to me now is just before coming here, I was like, oh, I've got to go to L A, man. Being from London, like, like, walking, you know, and like, driving and everything's spread out. And I was like, you don't see anyone. And all these kind of cliched criticisms, right? And yet, I woke up today in L A, absolutely loving it. Cause um, with my wife, with my kid, I'm with family, you know, family has come to visit. The house is full.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  And it's suddenly like, being back as a kid surrounded by clapping aunties or whatever, you know what I mean? It was just, it just feels like that environment. Um, it feels like home. Absolutely. It's the people, man. It's the people that made the place hundred percent. And and yeah, I was kind of confronted with that realization this morning. It was like, oh yeah, I've just slipped into this kind of lazy narrative. It's like, it's not what it's about.

• 1:10:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And and and the time piece too, that you brought up, that I think is a really valuable thing. It's like, how much can I not try and fill time? And how much can I not try and be distracted?

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  I find it hard, like, kind of doing nothing.

• 1:10:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Something that is starting to help is reading. I'm very poorly read. Nah, I don't believe that. Really?

• 1:10:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I'm I kind of like.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Through your work, I would like. I pick up a lot of things in like, um, I listen to a lot of music, I listen to podcasts, I watch talks, I go to talks, I talk to people. Um, but I had like, growing up crazy A D H D. And I'd get into a lot of trouble at school. And now I look back, I'm like, oh, of course, that's what that was. And, uh, you know, there's loads of different ways in which that manifests. So sitting down to read a book was like torture. It was historically, again, the narrative, oh, I don't read, I can't read. Recently, particularly being married to a novelist that was like, this is a bit of a deal breaker. You need to be reading, but you at least read my book. I was like, okay, I've got to sit down and do this. That is the thing that is allowing me to like, sit and kind of do nothing.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Again, it's forgetting myself, you know what I mean? But I otherwise struggle with it. I can very easily fill time, create a new idea. Now let's progress it. What if we do that? What if we, and I'm sure, I don't know, how do you manage that? Is that something that you also navigate?

• 1:11:31Jay Shetty?

  I had to set rules around it because I'm like that as well. I feel like I'm a creative brain. I like, I like building stuff. I like playing with stuff, but I had to start just building real parameters around that where.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  And what do you mean like, as in you don't work after six P M?

• 1:11:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, literally like, yeah, it's like, I won't think about work or be on my phone after six P M. Because to me, that rest and renewal is where the best ideas come out. Talking about flow state, I can't invent flow. I can't engineer it. I can't manufacture it. And so for it to exist, I need to be in this lucid state where we said something that randomly allowed for me to be inspired at eight P M and it came up and that's fine. But I don't need to act on it immediately. I just need to let it breathe and let it sit.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Letting it sit, best ideas come on the toilet, see bro? In the shower.

• 1:12:17Jay Shetty?

  In the shower.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Actually, we started taking our phones to the toilets. The toilets now, not the creative Mecca it used to be, but the shower, man.

• 1:12:24Jay Shetty?

  The shower is always where you go.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and actually, just to give Elliot flowers, driving has been great for me.

• 1:12:30Jay Shetty?

  I agree.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  In that sense, where you're just going on these long drives and you allow the thing to bubble up. David Lynch talked about the fish, right? These fish that would just swim to the surface sometimes, if you could just allow the water to be still enough.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake-up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 1:13:22Speaker 04

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in-store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:13:52Speaker 05

  Energía baja. Falta de concentración? Nebla mental? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders han sido diseñados científicamente para ayudarte a mejorar el balance de hidratación en el cuerpo. Hechos con la mezcla número uno de electrolitos, sin colores ni sabores artificiales. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Signos de dehidratación leve y moderada. Consulta a tu médico si los síntomas persisten.

• 1:14:29Jay Shetty?

  Riz, I want to do a set of questions for you that we've got that speak about everything we've been talking about, but we're going to do them as, not rapid fire, but we're going to do them as...

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Quicker fire.

• 1:14:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, quicker fire, yeah.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Non-rambly fire.

• 1:14:40Jay Shetty?

  I don't want... No, no, no, you can give longer answers, but I want to kind of get some out from you. So what's the hardest mask you've had to take off?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  I think it was probably around...

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  My health, yeah. You know, kind of letting people into that, even when it was happening, I was trying to keep people at a distance. I didn't want people to see me like that.

• 1:15:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Particularly if I thought I was like, if I might die, then I don't want people to remember me like this almost, you know. So I, I think it was that. I think it was when I was at my most vulnerable, letting people in on what was happening and starting to slowly share that.

• 1:15:13Jay Shetty?

  What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong?

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Different parts of me in every place that I go to.

• 1:15:19Jay Shetty?

  That's interesting, yeah.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of people feel like that, a lot of creative people feel like that. I've learned to embrace that, actually. I actually feel like having that slight outsider's perspective is gonna be kind of fun.

• 1:15:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  It allows me to like enjoy things at a distance as well. But yeah, I mean, all the time, I mean,

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  you know, I remember going to meet the Queen and accidentally trying to fist bump her.

• 1:15:43Jay Shetty?

  That's so good.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  It was like a British film industry reception, everyone lines up, she put her hand out like this from the angle that I was at. I thought she was going like this, I went like this, the security went like this. And ended up just going like this, you know, it was super weird. Yeah, her ring. So, um, I don't know, man, like there's, there's all these kind of moments of feeling like a fish out of water that now I actually kind of like, I quite enjoy being like, where am I? What is this? You know, it's something you can laugh about later.

• 1:16:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's a better story too.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  I think so. Yeah. If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, then you're probably not in the right place. David Bowie says this thing of, is when you can't feel the bottom of the swimming pool, is you know you're in the right place. You know, you're slightly out of your depth, working it out.

• 1:16:27Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful. I love that. That's, that's one of the reasons why I've, I actually like living in L A because I'm reminded of my insignificance daily.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Cause it's so big.

• 1:16:35Jay Shetty?

  Because it's so big and I go to an event and I'm the least important person in the room. And I love it because. The only conversation I'll have is a really meaningful one. Because the only person who's aware of me is someone who's connected to the kind of work I do.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:16:49Jay Shetty?

  And then that allows me to bask in the glory of the rarity of that human and the interaction we just had. So I try to belong to one person than belong to a room or a place or a space. Because belonging to one person is kind of all we're looking for anyway. It's like when you meet one person and you go, oh God, we even like, you know, we're from the same area. Like, you know, we know the same people like that to me in a busy, big room is like pure joy.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:17:15Jay Shetty?

  That I know even the person winning an award on stage, as you've rightly just said, isn't even feeling.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Jay Shetty?

  And so it's not being celebrated that makes gives us joy. It's not belonging to a whole room that gives us joy.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  It's connection, right?

• 1:17:27Jay Shetty?

  It's this one person that looks at you and you go, we're from the same place. We believe in the same things, we care about whatever, whatever that may be. Or I had a really good debate with someone that engaged me in a really curious way and we don't agree.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  It can be so overwhelming in those rooms, can't it? Where like you're chatting to people and you feel that everyone's like looking over his shoulders. See if there's someone else to talk to and it's like pinball. It's like social pinball, but finding a center in those rooms, finding a kind of a rooted place to drop into. Yeah, that's the way to do it.

• 1:17:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I always, I always say to God, I'm like, I just want to meet the one person you want me to meet today. And that's how I walk into a room.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:18:02Jay Shetty?

  And I always meet that person and it's always like becomes a friendship or we had a great conversation and we don't talk ever again. Or, and it's just like, yeah, God, like I'm here for you. So you just introduced me to the one person you want to introduce me to.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:18:14Jay Shetty?

  And it, yeah, that, that kind of carries me. So this one's a good one. So, uh, when was the last time you tried to people, please?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  This is gonna sound like a small thing, but clothes matter to me a lot.

• 1:18:27Jay Shetty?

  Me too, man.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  I grew up near Wembley Market where they sold all the fake designer clothes.

• 1:18:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  So it was all about that. We'd go, we'd buy some and we'd sell them and then we'd go, you know, and try and buy some real ones. And I don't know, we were just kind of obsessed with it, you know? As teenagers trying to wear the mask or have it the costume or fine worth, whatever it is. Now I see it more as a kind of expression to myself. Recently I was gonna do a talk show or something and I said,

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  I shouldn't wear that outfit. That's to me in a weird way.

• 1:18:56Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  I was like, that's, I need to meet the audience where they're at.

• 1:19:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Maybe they haven't seen a show like this or have related to someone like me from my background. I'm doing something maybe targeting like, you know, it's middle America or something. And I was, I tried to dilute down what I would wear and who I would be.

• 1:19:17Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  And luckily, when I was wearing things, I was like, who the hell is this? What am I, what am I doing? And I took it off, but I remember, and I remember actually in that moment being quite surprised. It's like, oh, that's still really, that's still a really strong instinct, didn't it?

• 1:19:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  To do that, to edit and censor myself in that way. Sounds like a small thing, but.

• 1:19:35Jay Shetty?

  Do you think though, you only get away with being able to make that choice when you're successful?

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  I think chicken and egg. I think the people who become the most successful, the people who are most unapologetically themselves.

• 1:19:45Jay Shetty?

  I love that. What a great answer. Yeah.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Because the specificity and the honesty and the authenticity is what people are attracted to. It just feels real, you know?

• 1:19:54Jay Shetty?

  That's the narrative again, we tell ourselves. Oh, when I'm, when I'm successful, then I'll be myself.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  When people accept me, I'll be me. Or if you be you, then people will accept you.

• 1:20:03Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. So well said, man. So well said. I feel like, before we go to the final five, which is our rapid fire, I feel like we have to give a bunch of shout outs to places in North and Northwest London that we grew up around. Cause we've got to go niche. We were talking about this before. We were like,

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Some deep cuts.

• 1:20:18Jay Shetty?

  We could have done a whole interview about North Northwest London and no one else would have got us apart from our hometown, which we love.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  So this is for the fifteen people that know exactly what we're talking about.

• 1:20:28Jay Shetty?

  I'm gonna start with the one I said to you earlier, Kebabish.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Kebabish on Ealing Road.

• 1:20:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  Kebabish is literally a place that I shout out on my last rap song.

• 1:20:37Jay Shetty?

  Do you know what? When I said that to you earlier, I didn't even know that.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  I just did a track called We Good with Cass's, and it's on the bait soundtrack, actually. I name checked Kebabish specifically. And the amount of people from my past who reached out and texted me like, bro. Kebabish, you remember those days when we used to go kebabish? The garlic mayo, my mouth is watering as I'm talking. It's actually the naan, it's the freshness of the naan. Shout out kebabish, Ealing Road.

• 1:21:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, that's a good one. What about, were you St Anne's or St George's? These are two shopping malls in Harrow in North West London, right?

• 1:21:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, whichever one the girl I was dating wanted to go to.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:21:12Jay Shetty?

  It was like, I was flexible, yeah, I was like, whichever.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  All right, so that's a good one.

• 1:21:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's a great one.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  I was actually saying, again, to shout out this area in London, it says North West London, we have all the best Jays. We have Jay Sean, Jay Paul and Jay Shetty. And this is the Holy Trinity, man. It's the Holy Brown Trinity. And then we have Riz and Depp Patel. Yes, we're also there holding down a fort, Reiner's Lane, Sudbury Town. So, but it's interesting, it's this kind of little pocket corner of the world that's there's super multicultural, you know, because of that, I think it's like a real creative hotbed and you get some interesting stuff happening there.

• 1:21:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, Anthony Joshua from Watford.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Exactly, he's from Watford, AJ, yeah, exactly.

• 1:21:55Jay Shetty?

  Sitting down with you is like, it is sitting down with an old friend, like it feels that way because it's like the schools you went to, the people you grew up around, friends and family, but Riz, you've been amazing to talk to today, honestly, this is

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  It's an absolute honour to be talking to you.

• 1:22:07Jay Shetty?

  Been beyond my expectations to get your openness, your honesty, your vulnerability. The show bait is a winner already, can't wait for more people to watch it. I can't wait for you. I mean, I know you've got Digger coming out this year, you've got, you know, Hamlet that's out already, like it's, I feel like, you know, just keeps becoming more and more your year for actually putting out real expression and truth.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. I'm trying to receive it. There we go.

• 1:22:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Thank you. Appreciate you.

• 1:22:33Jay Shetty?

  But Riz, we end every interview with the final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  Oh God, here we go.

• 1:22:38Jay Shetty?

  So Riz, these are your final five, brought to you by State Farm. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Idris Elba once said to me, categorize yourself not.

• 1:22:51Jay Shetty?

  Explain.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  I'd hit a glass ceiling in my career in the UK. He was like, you should go to America. I'm like, bro, what are they gonna do with a guy like me over there? They're gonna do nothing. I'm this, they don't have that. They have that, I'm not this. And he went, categorize yourself, not my friend. And actually, when you do that, you're doing other people's work for them. It's about the limitations people place on you, how we internalize them. And then we perpetuate that narrative and go, and I'm this, this is my lane. I'm this flavor. There's so many different sides to who you are. I told him that recently and he was like, I was like, bro, do you remember that conversation? He was like, nah, no memory of that. I was like, great, thanks a lot, bro. But it's those throwaway moments, right? When people kind of like see you differently to how you used to be seen.

• 1:23:35Jay Shetty?

  Did you feel that? Like, was that hard? I know the representation conversations are overplayed. I know those conversations have happened of just like, you know, making it as a brown man in Hollywood. You've, you've done that. But what is the reality of that? Because we say that and then you're like, well, wait a minute, actually, no, I haven't done that.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Cause I think that there's a reality that for women, for people of color, for people who are differently abled, there is a lot more resistance. I definitely do feel like sometimes after work, you know, twice as hard to get half as far. But I'm also kind of starting to feel like that is,

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  gives my journey more meaning. To me, but I know for a fact also for many others, you know?

• 1:24:18Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  And that actually, I think more and more friction is what gives life its meaning. You know, you order a meal on Deliveroo, it does not taste the same as you've taken that time to cook that for yourself. Shout out Deliveroo. I'm not saying that I don't do that, but I'm just kind of like, I, I just feel like it's what's given my journey. It's, it's meaning for, for me and I know for others. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it. I think for a long time I'd say, I wish I could swap that out. Wish I could make that different, but I don't feel that way anymore.

• 1:24:48Jay Shetty?

  What advice would you give to someone who is a person of color, differently abled, who is a woman, a gender that may have any of these experiences? What would you say to them? Because I think the bitterness, the pain, the rejection.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  It's real.

• 1:25:03Jay Shetty?

  Is real, yeah.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  It's real, it's justified, it's not imagined. I don't wanna guess like anyone who's going through that. It's hard. I would say, you know, my experience is like the gift and the curse are usually the same thing. You losing your voice has made you so conscious of what you're communicating and how and the words you're choosing. There's so many examples I can think of in my own journey where the thing that I thought was blocking me, if I just leaned into it, it could unlock something. And I would say to all of those people, the thing about you that's different is an obstacle in certain ways, but it's also the key.

• 1:25:41Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  And I would say lean into the specificity of your experience of who you are. You know, I went to Oxford University and felt very out of place there on many different levels. And my experience there taught me something, which is that actually, because I was thinking about quitting after the first month, I was like, what the hell am I doing here? Kind of had a mental health kind of breakdown almost over there and felt super depressed, super kind of like an alien. But I kind of feel like now the place where you stick out, if you can, if you can find a support, if it doesn't hurt you, the place that you stick out is a place where you should kind of stick it out. You have an opportunity of changing the temperature in that room, of bringing other people into that room.

• 1:26:22Jay Shetty?

  I love that, man. Yeah, it reminds me of the Stoic statement of the obstacle is the way.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:26:27Jay Shetty?

  The idea of like, the obstacle is the way, there is no other way. And so that obstacle, whether it's how you're set up or your background or your uniqueness.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:36Jay Shetty?

  All right. Question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  It was one of the first casting directors I ever met said, um, hey, nice to meet you, Riz. Um, just be careful about your eyes, you can look like a bit of a psychopath sometimes. Because I do this, I get excited and I start going like this. I just want to watch this interview back going, I did it there, I did it there. Sometimes I say to my wife, I go, am I doing the crazy eyes? She goes, don't think, don't think about the crazy eyes, okay? But it just made me very self-conscious.

• 1:27:02Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  And actually, weirdly, I remember for a couple of years after that, I was acting like this and everything. Go and watch some of my stuff from like the early aughts, bro. I'm like.

• 1:27:13Jay Shetty?

  That's brilliant. That's so good.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  I have big eyes. I can be, I get animated. It's, I've got, you know, learned to try and lean into that.

• 1:27:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. I love that. Question number three. You mentioned your wife a few times. What's been the biggest lesson that you've learned from your wife?

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  When I see the path that my wife has been on, how she's had to fight every step of the way, the dedication, the devotion it has taken for her to tell her story with such specificity and reach the world with it. I think I've kind of understood what devotion means, devotion to her path. Her creativity is a kind of prayer, is a kind of devotion.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Devotion in seeing how she is with our child. I think she just operates from like a deep place, you know? I think the biggest thing she's taught me that, and also you can never buy enough phone chargers. She will take them all and lose them all. You know what they say is the way that the first thing about someone that you find cute ends up being the thing that's like, kill me now. We actually met because she had lost her phone charger.

• 1:28:23Jay Shetty?

  No.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  I was in a cafe in New York, a laptop charger. I was in a cafe in New York, just writing a script or whatever. She came in on the phone, laptops only on the communal table. She sits down opposite me, pulls out her laptop, starts emptying out her bag, looking for her charger. It's like chaos. And I was like, can I, can I help you? Do you want to borrow my charger? After six years of marriage, bro, that hasn't changed.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  She's still borrowing my charger. Now I'm trying to hide the charger from her.

• 1:28:52Jay Shetty?

  That's brilliant.

• 1:28:54Jay Shetty?

  Was that, did she know? She was like, was that?

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  No, no. I might have thought that maybe for a minute. Now that I know her, I just know. It's like a vortex of chargers. No, but I'm, I'm, I'm just kind of trying to downplay it and joke around. But I think, you know, my wife has taught me so much, but the word that comes to my mind is devotion, devotion to a purpose, to a journey.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, to your path.

• 1:29:19Jay Shetty?

  I love that, man. Beautiful answer. Question number four, what do you pray to God for today?

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  I went to Mecca recently and you do this thing where you kind of try and pray for everyone you know by name. And I started realizing that everything ends up kind of cohering around like three basic ideas. I pray for people's health. I pray for people's ability to provide.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  For themselves and their loved ones.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  In a way that allows them to have dignity and feel good about it. And the third thing that I always pray for everyone is is for them to be brought closer to their purpose. And I always say, God, bring me close to my purpose. Because that's the way of bringing me closer to myself, as you intend. And also closer to you. Your purpose, I think, your path is something that is extremely personal, but also divine. And so alignment to our path, to our purpose, there's this phrase in Islam, the Serat al-Mustaqin, which is the straight path. And people interpret that in different ways, but for me, it's about finding your path.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  The path that's intended for you. So yeah, man, your health, your rosy roote, your ability to provide and your path.

• 1:30:40Jay Shetty?

  Have you been to Mecca before? Is that the first time?

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  No, I went once when I was 15, but it was a different experience. I went older and actually from a more spiritually skeptical place. You know how life throws you around and you kind of ask questions? And we went this December and both me and my wife went with openness. And I would say, you know, we are Muslim and we have spirituality in our lives, but we also feel often that organized religion and the way that it's used is definitely brought some skepticism into our hearts as well. And going there was incredible. And I would say it was actually just a physical act with of walking around in a circle.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  With all these people from all over the world, everyone dressed the same. Everyone's mask kind of stripped away. There's just such a sense of oneness there. It was really kind of beautiful. And I promised myself, I've got to try and bottle this feeling. But of course, as soon as you're on that plane, you're like back on your phone.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  But that was, it was powerful. Yeah.

• 1:31:47Jay Shetty?

  It's interesting as you were talking about that, because I've been thinking about this idea a lot about how modern society has made everything about upwards and forwards. And actually, when you look at spiritual traditions, everything's circumamulating.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:32:02Jay Shetty?

  And even in India, when you go to a holy place, you, you circle it.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  Or in a wedding, when you walk around the fire seven times.

• 1:32:08Jay Shetty?

  Everything's circle. And so when you start looking at life that way versus that way.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:32:13Jay Shetty?

  It's just a fascinating like mindset shift of like, oh, what if we saw life as cyclical and not as linear? And everything we just talked about today.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  I love what you're saying. I think of it as a spiral.

• 1:32:24Jay Shetty?

  A spiral. Yeah, yeah, right.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you kind of retread the same ground in life, but hopefully from a more elevated perspective each time.

• 1:32:32Jay Shetty?

  I like that.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  You know, and epiphany kind of works in that way as well. And those leaps that you have of understanding, they're usually kind of not by going to, by retracing your steps.

• 1:32:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  And feeling different or wanting something to feel different.

• 1:32:47Jay Shetty?

  I like the ascension aspect that you just added. That's not just round and round and round. It's, it's surely, so there is some ascension, which is, which is beautiful. Fifth and final question we ask is to every guest who's ever been on the show. I'm really excited for your answer, actually. You can think about it for as long as you want. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  I want to be off my phone more. But we're all locked in because everyone's on their phone. I'll put it down if everyone else does.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  I just want everyone to be off the phone. I want everyone to go back to dumb phones. And here's why. I go through periods of time where I put my phone away. Totally. I put it in a little safe and I lock it away for like 12 hours, 20 hours. Or, you know, before we had a kid, me and my wife would go away and she, as a novelist, she has to do that kind of deep work, you know? You can't kind of dip in and out of it. The way she does it, at least, she can't. And so the phone would go away for like five days. We'd like check into a hotel, give it to them and say, we'll take this when we check out. Time feels totally different. My experience of the day feels totally different.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  The thoughts in my mind are totally different. I'm a little bit closer to being obsessed with the Velcro on the shoe again, you know what I mean? I would love to just do that. I don't know what that means about this show though, Jay, and who gets to see it. Maybe we'll have some, just certain hours in the day.

• 1:34:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  We can all go back online.

• 1:34:19Jay Shetty?

  No, that's a great answer. I love it. I feel like that's, that's, that's the crux of it all. Riz Ahmed, bait, excited for everything that comes from this day. I hope we stay in touch.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:34:29Jay Shetty?

  It's been such a joy to do this with you and I hope you felt you got to share everything and anything you wanted to talk about.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And thank you for creating this space for me and for other people. It's a very enriching space and empowering one where we can just be vulnerable in that way and share. So, thank you.

• 1:34:43Jay Shetty?

  Thank you, man. Thank you. If you're feeling inspired by this episode, you won't want to miss my conversation with Wicked's Cynthia Erivo.

• 1:34:51Speaker 06

  We are afraid to let a person go and we need to be okay with letting people go. We don't know what path people are walking on when they walk into our lives. We might just be a stepping stone in their path, just like stepping stones in their life.

• 1:35:06Speaker 04

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:35:35Speaker 07

  This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series East of Eden. A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece, following generations of the Trask family. Through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask Brothers. And Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames, the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants. No matter the cost, watch East of Eden October 1st only on Netflix.

• 1:36:05Speaker 08

  Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:36:08Speaker 09

  On October 2nd.

• 1:36:10Speaker 08

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:36:14Speaker 09

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Ravenhead.

• 1:36:22Speaker 08

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You start, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 1:36:26Speaker 09

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:36:29Speaker 08

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:36:30Speaker 09

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not in middle without parent.