MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY: The KEYS to a Meaningful Life (Love, Faith, Family & Turning Failure into Growth)

Matthew McConaughey didn’t build his life by trying to control every outcome. He built it by learning when to let go and when to trust. Today, Jay sits down with Matthew for a raw, unfiltered exploration of purpose, faith, discipline, and what it really means to live well. It’s an honest conversation about the moments that shape us, and the choices that quietly define who we become. Together, they move through certainty and surrender, ambition and presence, effort and trust. Matthew opens up about his lifelong relationship with achievement and his growing desire to create space for stillness, daydreaming, and reflection. He shares how writing became a way to strip away filters and speak more directly to his truth, and how fatherhood reshaped his understanding of responsibility, humility, and love. Jay and Matthew explore failure as a sign of growth, and how disappointment when met with self-awareness, can teach rather than define us. Together they reveal a powerful insight: growth doesn’t come from trying to perfect ourselves, but from learning how to stay present, curious, and grounded through every season of life. Matthew reflects on the balance between taking responsibility and letting go, between striving for excellence and accepting imperfection. He shares why he believes the world is conspiring to make us happy, not through ease, but through meaning, effort, and alignment. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Trust Life Without Losing Control How to Redefine Success Beyond Achievement How to Learn From Failure Without Shame How to Build Trust Before You Need It How to Stay Present Without Chasing Perfection How to Strengthen Love Through Daily Intention How to Find Meaning When Answers Aren’t Clear Life isn’t asking you to be perfect, it’s asking you to be present. To stay curious. To keep learning. To choose courage over comfort and intention over autopilot. No matter where you are right now, progress is still possible, meaning is still available, and your next step matters. Explore Matthew McConaughey’s reflections on faith, belief, and the human experience in his book Poems & Prayers: http://poemsprayers.com/ With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here. Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:16 The Drive for Purpose and Accomplishment 04:23 Living With a Beginner’s Mind 07:20 What Chapter of Life Are You In Right Now? 13:21 Why You’re Exactly Where You Need to Be 16:25 How Your View of Success Shapes Failure 20:39 Humility Means Being Honest With Yourself 23:15 The Power of Consequences 25:47 You Just Need to Take One Step at a Time 30:49 Staying Grounded in Faith Through Real Life Experiences 34:37 Ways to Strengthen Your Spiritual Practice 45:29 What is Truly Fascinating About Being Human? 50:45 Are We Expecting Too Much From Others? 58:57 Where Do You Seek Validation? 01:01:56 Learning to Trust Without Losing Control 01:08:28 When Everything Matters, Nothing Does 01:13:24 A More Realistic Way to Think About Love 01:24:14 Understanding Both Sides of Consequence 01:27:49 Matthew on Final Five Episode Resources: Poems & Prayers | http://poemsprayers.com/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/officiallymcconaughey/ YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChH3PVceKAMkFXHza0PlX_Q X | https://x.com/McConaughey Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/MatthewMcConaughey/ TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@officiallymcconaughey_m See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:41Jay Shetty?

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• 1:26Jay Shetty?

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• 1:56Speaker 01

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• 2:26Jay Shetty?

  When you think about your life right now, you do so much. You were just talking about all the projects and travel and everything. If you ever get a day that has no plan, no schedule, no timeline, no phone, no commitments, what does that look like for you?

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't get many of those and I need to, my hunch is I need to learn to get more of those. And when I get them, I can be better at them. Because I have a love of accomplishment, to even feel a significance for the day. You know, I sleep better. When I have a purpose and I went after something, even if it's just building something. And I'm still learning. I'm gonna remind myself now, I used to be better at it actually, to, I just go daydream, mosey. Let's take a mo-, everything's a swing by today. That's one thing I've tried, I quit calling appointments appointments and call them swing buys. And all of a sudden I find I get just as much done, but I'm just, it's just in my dance of the day.

• 3:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  But if I have one full day off, I will get my nine and a half hour sleep, which is preferred, which means maybe I sleep till nine thirty. I'll get up, take my time, mosey down. If Camilla was up, my wife was up before me, she'll have left me a matcha tea. If she wasn't or had to rush out the door, I'll go make that tea. While the water's boiling, I'll go probably do eight pieces of a puzzle.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Which is a wonderful way. I love starting my day on that slow, simple, ah, eight little connections. Ah, you rhymed eight different things and very simple. Now I'll usually head out to the, maybe the front porch, have that first tea, catch, hopefully catch fifteen minutes of some morning sun, a face.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Then I'll, um, catch up on the, on the, the, the, the world's news, what's happening. Maybe I'll do my word or a couple of simple things. Kind of try and play tennis somewhere in the day. I'm gonna try and break a sweat somewhere during the day.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  I'll take some project or something that I'm working on or writing with me maybe to my gym and have one of those lazy little two and a half hour workouts where you kind of stop and write some things and then you kind of get to hop back into it. And then, uh, I'm probably gonna cook dinner that night when I don't have anything going on. So either I'm gonna get the ribeyes and, and then rub them down on my rub and have everything and, and, and, or I'm gonna do tuna melts for the family that night.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  And then, uh, kids that wanna come home, we'll usually hang. I'm picking, I'm saying this day that I have off is a school day.

• 5:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  And, uh, we'll hang, catch up on days. After that, maybe the family will all go catch something, one of our favorite shows, we'll go watch an hour. And if we start early enough, maybe we get two episodes. Kids will go down, then, uh, Camilla and I get to hang and, uh, for the last couple of hours of the evening. That'd be, that'd be a mosey through my day day.

• 5:29Jay Shetty?

  Nice. I love that.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:31Jay Shetty?

  How, how, obviously the mindset of achievement and purpose and growth has served you so well. But there's a part of you that sounds like I would like more days like this. Where does that come from?

• 5:43Speaker 02

  I love to be on task. I love to have something that I'm building and reaching to finish and, and do. I love the building of that. I've started a lot of the campfires in my life that I'm still building.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  And I have plenty to fill my 24 hour days. At the same time, I wanna keep.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Learning and be inspired by something new. You know, pick up something that I didn't like. I just picked up tennis four years ago. I didn't have, I noticed I said, you hadn't had a hobby for 25 years, Makana, hey? You found your first hobby. I thought writing was a hobby and I was like, no, that's actually not a hobby. You know, but to find, to be open to finding a new hobby, a new, to go somewhere and not, I don't know. Where are we going? I was going for a walk to no destination in particular. You know, to, to lose track of time.

• 6:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  With success and with a busy life and I got a full life and got a family and I got a career. I, my hunch is that while that can fill my days completely for my own evolution in art. Just to make sure I can still have that beginner's mind where I can go daydream. For nothing in particular, go, go, go, go where your nose takes you. You know what I mean? Or go where your ears take you. Follow that to give my, to make sure I'm giving myself time. To let that happen. I think is a good, I think is a good, it, it always seems to pay off.

• 7:10Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  And it never is looked at as like time not well spent. You know what I mean? But in the time I can get a little bit anxious and be like, let's do, let's get ahead on that thing. You know, let's, let's bring that thing that you were supposed to have done next Friday. Well, what if we got that done now?

• 7:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to that. I can, I can relate to that. And I can see it too. And, and how easy it is as someone who loves what they do and loves creating and building and I fully get it.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  That's, I mean, there's the upside and I'm, I'm not over here bitching about that. I'm happy to have things in my life that I love to build and do.

• 7:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  My wife knows it. She, I'm, I'm probably most happy. It's probably obvious. When I'm, when I'm working, when I have a, when I have a schedule, when I have a day that is this many hours or 12 hours. Or I just got through shooting something for two months and then boom, hopped off next day, went into shooting something for three days. I, I love that. I sleep well. The food tastes a little better to me that night. That.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Cocktail that time, panela was on ice, tastes better that night. I'm actually, I think, have more time. And I'm a better father to my kids, the conversations, and I'm more present when I have that sense of accomplishment through the day.

• 8:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, what's, you've written so many chapters, you've lived so many chapters. What would this chapter of your life be called?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  True, that's a great question. Um, so I'm just turned fifty six. And forties were my favorite decade. I think I really customized and I found that to be true for a lot of people, especially a lot of the men I talk to, they go, man, forties, oh, you get rid of all that stuff where you're wasting your time and you're honing in on the stuff that turns you on. Um, look, fifties, I'm still in the early, the first, first few years of fifties were a little wobbly for me. So you go, oh, is this that midlife crisis? And I go, well, what is that? I don't like the word crisis on that.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Sounds like a midlife, for lack of a better word, opportunity that you just, it's a time where, for whatever reason, man looks back and goes, what have I done? And now where am I going? And I think my hunch is that most people go through what they call a midlife crisis. And if it's hard for them or not healthy for them, it's because maybe they're not given enough credit to what they actually have done to get there. You know, it's like, oh, no, I did that.

• 9:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Done, next. You know, like we're talking about me, need more accomplishment. Wait a minute, sometimes it's all right to go, what, what did you do back there that actually you're still building? What if we take that to another level? Uh, put another log on that fire. My goal when I hit the fifties, my, my goal did, it came to me was like, hey,

• 10:02Speaker 02

  You're an actor. You, you, you, you play a character in someone else's script. Someone else wrote, directed by someone else, lensed in a camera from someone else, and edited by someone else before your performance is shared. And I love acting, but I go, there's four filters of my raw expression before it's getting to you. We were talking about this before we got on camera today. You go, you go on stage, boom, it's direct. This is pretty direct, but there's still a filter here. You know what I mean? Writing, there's still one filter. That's, but that's when I headed into writing is I wanted to get rid of three of the filters. And that's when I said, oh, what if I write the word?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Can I pull off and give someone, translate the human experience where they, people can see themselves through words? Can I paint a picture of my own experiences which someone else can go, oh, I've been there, I know what you're talking about. But that's still a filter. So the challenge I've been, that, that keeps just gnawing at me since I've turned 50 is like, what's your documentary? What, what, what are you doing? Are you a character in life in the big show? The one that, or action was called The Day You Were Born, and cut will be called The Day You Die. What, what, what are you doing live? Is that worth a show? Is it entertaining?

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Is it educational? Is it, is it fulfilling? Is it, does it turn you on? Could it turn other people, put people on? What's happened? That's, that, now we're talking no filters. And so I've started to question myself, going, what, what's your, let's, let's, let's think about, do you, is there other avenues for you to live live? Instead of doing someone else's script, what's your script? Now, that's led me to think about different ways of leadership. It's led me to, to write more. It's also led me to go, on the hard days, to give myself a little amnesty and go, dude, take a little wisdom from Bob Dylan. You're, you're, you are what you create yourself to be.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Maybe if you feel more alive, acting in a show through a character, well, bravo. That's still you. Don't act like that's not you, you didn't get to your real self. I mean, you are, to be the creation, and it's okay if I'm gonna go play a part.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  We're all playing a part. Are we playing, if we can get to a part that is essentially, close to essentially who we are, bravo for us. If we can't, or having trouble doing that, if we can play a part that we're good at and shows a piece and translates to show a piece of humanity, turns other people and us on, even though it may not be corely who we are, well, bravo for getting away with that one too. You know, but play one at a time is another, is another little tip I have to remind myself. Cause the great performers, whether I think in life or in acting, you know, they, they, they can play any part. They can be any creation, but they're always one at a time.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  And that's where some patience has come in. That's where a bit of that, hey, don't rush to accomplish. Play one part at a time. But as life gets big, and you've got a career and you've got a family, there's many parts to play, you know, father, husband, performer, you know, or writer, whatever those are. But as you know, with practice, those all, that instead of feeling like five different hats you gotta wear one day, you go, that's all part of the same story. That's all part of the same man I am.

• 13:43Jay Shetty?

  So the chapter would be called one, one at a time?

• 13:46Speaker 02

  The chapter would be called, ah, I wish it was called, sometimes I think it should be called one at a time. My long answer to what would the chapter be would be.

• 13:54Jay Shetty?

  I loved your answer.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  We've got a, um, I opened up eight lanes to about 12 lanes. When you open up to more lanes and you've been comfortable on these eight and you know them well, well, there's a little growing pains with getting comfortable in those other new lanes. Um, without disregarding my eight that I've built, that I've built, that I'm comfortable in, you know? So I would say four more lanes. Let's call that chapter, let's call it four more lanes.

• 14:26Jay Shetty?

  Four more lanes. Yeah. It's interesting listening to you because I think you've highlighted a really interesting human trait that we all possess where.

• 14:37Jay Shetty?

  When we achieve something and it's no longer useful, we start to denigrate it. So for example, if I think a certain mindset is gonna help me at this point in my life, I'll use it, it will get me to where I wanna get to, and then when I get there, I'll go, I didn't like that mindset, I wish I was this way. And we kind of do that time and time again, and I assume decade by decade, where we reject the thing that got us here.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:05Jay Shetty?

  And don't value it because now it isn't what the new

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:10Jay Shetty?

  world looks like, it's like, and making it very basic, a crude example is, oh, I used, I thought that was cool to wear, and now 10 years later, I look back and I think, why was I wearing that? Like, I'm crazy.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:20Jay Shetty?

  And but think about that on an internal soul level of the mindsets we wear and the behaviors we wear and

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:25Jay Shetty?

  like taking a moment, as you said, to give yourself that amnesty to say.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and to and to make sense of you with the default emotion, when you look back and you're embarrassed of something you did that actually got you what you wanted.

• 15:36Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  To go, you know?

• 15:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  To go, instead of judging it, at least start off giggling at it, it helps with the amnesty. It also helps change your gear and go, oh, the realization of, oh, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have learned that lesson if I wouldn't have been such an egotistical prick at the time, because I wouldn't have had the confidence to put myself in the situation to get humbled.

• 15:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? You can look at all the piles of S H I T we step in, and they lead to, you know, the clean, the clean water we get to drink from the, from the well down the line, or the truth we figure out. I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, I say that to mystery going forward, it's the science looking back.

• 16:18Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  You know?

• 16:19Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Cause we can all connect the dots to exactly where we are right now. And there's a science to it.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Even and that science has to do with when we face planted and tripped ourselves and messed up or went about it the wrong way, but maybe got the outcome we wanted or went about the wrong way and didn't get the outcome we wanted. I think that has a lot to do with our, and I don't know, do you think this is a Western thing, our relationship with failure? We're embarrassed, we, in some ways I wish we were more embarrassed. All right. But in other ways, I'm like, we have to get a, with children, you know, it's like, they're afraid to fail. And it's like, no, no, no. If anything, if I look back, I always answer the question, what would you do different? I wish I would have taken more risk and failed more. And I'm still trying to challenge myself to that today. But we have this relationship with failures, like an embarrassing thing to do instead of shaking hands, because no failure

• 17:14Speaker 02

  will happen. And if it doesn't happen, you're probably not taking enough risks. Or you're not getting out of your comfort zone. So no failure is part of the successful path. It's necessary. And we don't have a good relationship with it. Is that a Western thinking?

• 17:32Jay Shetty?

  I think it comes from the Western versus Eastern ideology of time. So in Eastern traditions, time is cyclical. And in Western traditions, time is linear.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:43Jay Shetty?

  And as soon as you make time linear, failure means a step behind.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:47Jay Shetty?

  But as soon as time is cyclical.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:48Jay Shetty?

  Well, then it's just repeating itself.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Revolution.

• 17:51Jay Shetty?

  So that concept transforms how you view failure, because failure then becomes a part of a cycle.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:57Jay Shetty?

  Whereas failure in a linear journey is bad.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:01Jay Shetty?

  Because it means I'm going backwards.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Is success in the same way in the Western world, Western world, vertical? As in, oh, two steps up the ladder, failure. Oh, you step back down the ring. Whereas in the Eastern philosophy, it's not necessarily so vertical quantity?

• 18:18Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I would say it's, I would say if the Western is outwards and upwards, then the Eastern is inwards.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 18:26Jay Shetty?

  And so the inner journey, for example, the quest to understand outer space would not be as interesting as the inner sky. The inner sky would be more of a magnetic pull to understand.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Heard.

• 18:40Jay Shetty?

  If that helps.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Yes, it does.

• 18:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And so these little mindsets, I feel, it's what you said earlier, you change your language about midlife crisis to midlife opportunity. That language shift.

• 18:55Jay Shetty?

  It's revolutionary for the mind.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  It's wild, isn't it? The vernacular, the prescriptions definition are just a word. I had the war, I had, I've had the hardest time for forty years

• 19:12Speaker 02

  dealing with the word humility.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Come on, gotta be humble, Matthew, gotta be humble, gotta be humble. My shoulders would start to cave. My head would start to go down. I was pa, I became passive. I had the moment where it was my turn and I, I didn't take the opportunity. I had a false sense of modesty of, no, no, no, you, you, you go. Or that, that, that person that's, that, that's at the, um, in front of you at the stop sign. That says, no, you can go. And now it's your turn. They go, no, you can go. It's like, no, it's your turn to go. It's like, don't sit there and keep telling everything. That's a false modesty. It's like, there's, they went, now you can go. Don't let them all go through or I'm gonna start hogging the horn, you know what I mean? Until I heard

• 20:01Speaker 02

  uh, a definition that was humility is admitting you have more to learn. And soon as I heard that, I went, oh, oh, I'm in, I purchase. I, my, now my, my chin's up, my heart's high, my shoulders are back. And I admit, I've got a lot more to learn, but now I've got the confidence to move forward and I didn't get that click. It was just a definition. Vulnerability is another word that kinda has a mingling definition. That some people are hard to take it, eh, or you know, sentimentality. It's different between sentiment and sentimentality. And we all wanna be humble, but nobody wants to be humiliated. Well, aren't they of the same word?

• 20:44Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, yeah, one little flick of a definition. We found, you know what? Camilla and I, when we went to DC with the gun control after the shooting, we said, instead of calling gun control, and we're talking to especially some people on the far right. The word they love, which is true, not control. Nobody wants to mandate, but we call it gun responsibility. Oh, oh, they're raising their hand, go, I'm all for responsibility. What do you mean? But the word control, they're, uh-uh, I'm not even, I'm not listening to another, another word. Control is what I don't want.

• 21:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  But you say, call it responsibility. Oh, now I talk to you. It's amazing how a word sometime, and you don't know what someone else's definition is. They may have a completely different definition of that, right? How they grew up, what they experienced, what their parents taught them, what school, how, how that word, what that gave them in their life when they thought they were acting that way.

• 21:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Or living that way.

• 21:43Jay Shetty?

  It's so true. It's so true. And that's such a great example with humility. My favorite definition that I learned about humility was always being honest with yourself. And so it's like humility is being honest with yourself. So I'm good at this and I'm not so good at this. I'm, I'm great at this and I can be confident about it. And ah, this needs a bit of work, you know? And so if I can be honest with myself, then that's humility because I'm accepting that there's more I need to learn.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:09Jay Shetty?

  But there is something that I have to offer.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:11Jay Shetty?

  And.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  It's, I, I love the word, you know, I love to be certain.

• 22:15Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Sometimes I mistake my, I love to be, I'm a big fan of the word selfish. And I'm still into redefining this. And my pastor told me, God, hey, you're pushing a large square rock up a very steep hill. But you know, even biblically speaking to unto others that you would have them do unto?

• 22:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  You. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. That's the self, that seems to me purely selfish. I believe, seems to me that real religion is extremely selfish. Living the way now, if we believe that you will, whether it's karma wise in life, or whether it's life after this life, that you will be rewarded later. That projection, that delayed gratification, sacrifices and consequences we make. Maybe it's when we make now to give our children a better life. Two decades from now, isn't that the most self, isn't that more selfish than doing only for I at the sake of my neighbor or my loved one's future?

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Seems to me that's, maybe I'm using the wrong, maybe I'm using the, the wrong word, I'm told sometimes, but I'm sticking with it.

• 23:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, but you know, the, the, the certainty. I like to know, I want to be in the know. I also want to damn well be in the know about what I don't know.

• 23:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  And that's, that's part of that humility, is what I mean, like, I, I mean, you know, they say, don't take yourself, says, no, take yourself real seriously.

• 23:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  And also, take sense of humor seriously.

• 23:47Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  And also take comedy very seriously.

• 23:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Take guffaws very seriously. They happen.

• 23:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  You know?

• 23:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I loved your, you just referenced it, you were talking about karma. I loved your redefinition of how karma works. So in the book you write, when you don't do good to others, it's guaranteed basically that they won't do good to you. But if you do good to others,

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Not a guarantee.

• 24:14Jay Shetty?

  It's not a guarantee that they're still.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Good to you, but.

• 24:17Jay Shetty?

  The universe will respond.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:19Jay Shetty?

  Along those lines, and I'm doing it from memory, that's right. But talking about redefinitions, it stayed with me because I thought you've just pierced the veil of our false understanding with karma, which is if I do good to people, they do good to me.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:35Jay Shetty?

  And if I do it bad to people, they do bad to me. So I'm expecting that when I do good to you,

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Bro, quote.

• 24:39Jay Shetty?

  you'll do good to me. And we all know that doesn't work like that.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 24:43Jay Shetty?

  And I thought, wow, this really pierces the point because now I can still choose to be good to others, knowing that good comes to me in other ways.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:54Jay Shetty?

  But I don't have to find it through that person.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Can you, can you, can we trust that?

• 24:58Jay Shetty?

  Can we trust that?

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Unconditionally. For ourselves. Again, that goes back to selfish for me, for ourselves, again, the projection, it seems like delayed gratification, the thing that we really try to teach our children is what we still have the most to learn about as adults. What are the consequences? Can we believe more in the consequences of our choices today? Can we have more trust and belief in?

• 25:30Speaker 02

  You know, that what I, the choice I make today, if I make the better choice, it's going to reap rewards on others, including myself, down the line. But we don't like to think past now. If you're successful, you're fluent in life, you have the, the luxury of thinking, of, of long-term thinking.

• 25:55Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Some people in misery, which this would be fun to talk about, some of the misery, they're delayed gratification my ass. What you talking about? I'm trying to, I'm hoping, I'm trying to get something tonight. I hope we can wake up tomorrow and put some food on the table.

• 26:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Is it a luxurious thing to talk about delayed gratification? Is it a luxurious thing to talk about making sacrifices? And doing what's well for yourself, but also well for the most amount of others? Is that a luxury to someone in misery? Cause they sure as hell have a hard time understanding. And I'm with you going, I understand. You want me to talk about what we can do to peace in the world and you're trying to pay your rent? You're going, I don't want to hear about that. I've got a household here, I've got two bedrooms, I've got five kids, I just got fired. And you want to talk to me about what the best idea would be for the most amount of people? Right here.

• 26:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? I understand that.

• 26:51Jay Shetty?

  Yes, absolutely. I fully agree. And then what do you do about that then? So you understand it, but...

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Well, I, I try to be humble with it and go, you can't just, you know, speak, trying to come across as speaking from on high. I think, you know, you talk about someone in a position who's lost or in pain. Again, you talk to them about projection and projecting further in life. They're like, what are you talking about? But to those people and when I myself have been there and trying to, and confused and frustrated and don't have the luxury or the bandwidth to think that far ahead. And try to go, what?

• 27:42Speaker 02

  All right, so what's the next best right decision? What's, and you don't know what that is.

• 27:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. That's the, one of the problems. All right, what do you, what are you most faithful to?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Do that one, just one. Let's just go one in a row.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  What are you thinking about? And if then, no, just should do one in a row.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  And just start with one and, and, and just stop there. I remember being down in, after Katrina.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  We were in golf in Mississippi and we were on these property where all these houses were wiped out. And we own this one place and there's, this lady's house was just a slate of cement with some rubbage and stuff. It had been completely knocked down. And she came back and she was about 80 years old and she was still in a nightgown and she'd, she's saw it for the first time. And she was just like, oh. And we asked her, what are you looking for? She goes, well, I, I just want to find a picture, maybe in a scrapbook. So my grandchildren say, I don't live here, but that's, that will, that will help me. And, and then I was sitting there talking to her and I was like, what are you feeling right now? She goes, I just, I just, can you tell me where to put my right foot? If I take a step?

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  I just need.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Is it solid? Is it going to cave? Am I going to trip? Can you just tell me? I don't even want to look right now. We, can I trust you to tell me that this, if I step this way, one step, my foot will be solid and flat and I won't slip and it won't be danger. I don't want to step on a piece of glass. I'm not, it's not going to. And that's just one, one step. That's a person in misery. Going, just show me one solid step. I don't want to know what's going on. No, I don't, not, not what's happening in an hour, not what's happening in 30 minutes. Just give me one solid step.

• 29:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  That seems to be a

• 29:40Speaker 02

  a place to start for someone in misery.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  That's, it doesn't have the ability to project or so confused and you feel, it, it's got too much coming down on you. Too much pain to think down the, down the line. And then if you do that want. Then you reset and you bring up the same question. What's the next one step?

• 30:02Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  If it one in a row, over and over.

• 30:04Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Instead of, oh, I'm gonna put a string together. No, do one in a row, over and over, and look up and maybe you can go, look at that.

• 30:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Ten in a row.

• 30:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  We got somewhere.

• 30:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  But that's easier said than done, you know?

• 30:17Jay Shetty?

  No.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 30:18Jay Shetty?

  I know, I love that. I think you hit the nail on the head. It's it's how we teach children to take one step at a time. It's how we build new habits as people. We do one day at a time.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 30:30Jay Shetty?

  I think as soon as we start thinking, it's why New Year's resolutions fail. It's why these big claims of I'm gonna do this for the rest of my life, or I'm gonna do this for the rest of the year, why people struggle with vows and commitments or whatever it may be. It's because you're making this long term decision based on small amounts of information. And you're spot on that I think it's not compassionate to challenge someone beyond that one step, that footing, that that they just, I love that answer. I think it's, I think it's, I think it's the most empathetic, compassionate and loving thing you can do is to teach someone how to take the next step without any pressure to climb the whole mountain.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  So what then would you say is the balance between keeping the big picture in mind, but taking one step at a time?

• 31:19Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  The urge, the will, the incentive, the being to go, no, I'm chasing my transcendent self. I'm trying to be more God like, whatever that is.

• 31:33Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Which is a big, big picture.

• 31:36Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  I'm trying, living as if I want to get to heaven or whatever. I wanna act in a way that I have good comfort. Those are big ideas.

• 31:46Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  So how do you, what's the, what's in your mind? What's the dance between that and yes, but? Put your head down, one step at a time.

• 31:56Jay Shetty?

  As you're saying, I'm reminded of a beautiful line in scripture. This comes from the Bhagavad Gita, the eastern text. And The text is not a rulebook or a principle book. It's based on a battlefield. And the character is the greatest archer of his time. And he's having a crisis of faith. And the bow slipping from his hands. He's gonna have to fight his family, who are the bad side. And he's the good side, and he doesn't feel capable of taking the lives of people that he grew up with. And that's, that's the scene. And he's talking to God, who happens to be his charioteer. So God's actually riding his chariot.

• 32:39Jay Shetty?

  He pauses in between the two armies. And they have this dialogue, which is 700 verses, 45 minutes long in time. And God's number one instruction is, "Think of me and fight."

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:53Jay Shetty?

  It's like, "Think of me and fight."

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:55Jay Shetty?

  It's like, "I want you to think of me, and then do your duty, and take that step."

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:00Jay Shetty?

  And so, you know, talking about what you're saying, it's like this paradox where we think we have to choose, but actually, the instruction in and of itself, he repeats that twice, God repeats that twice in the text. It's like, "Think of me and fight." So think of me and do your duty, think of me and take the step.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Like it.

• 33:15Jay Shetty?

  Because if you think of me and take the step,

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:18Jay Shetty?

  you'll have faith and trust, but you'll also feel your action and the confidence. But if you only think of me,

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:24Jay Shetty?

  and you just sit there,

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:25Jay Shetty?

  that's not gonna work.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, let's, let's explore those two extremes that where we, where we don't get it.

• 33:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  One are the fatalist.

• 33:32Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. And Shalah.

• 33:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Wait a minute. We gotta have our hands on a wheel.

• 33:39Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Uh, you know, we, it is, we have our freedom of choice and, you know. So where is it that we go, rely on fate too much?

• 33:51Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  And where is it we're like, "No. I am fully responsible for everything. The next step is all that matters." Head down. You don't see any horizon.

• 34:00Jay Shetty?

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• 34:44Jay Shetty?

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• 35:30Jay Shetty?

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• 36:05Speaker 02

  I don't see any, you're not pursuing anything, you're just, you're, you know. Not Air Force, Navy, Marines, your army. You're dealing with the ground only.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Talking about space, you know, that that's the two extremes when it feels like they can be out of bounds. But that paradox in the middle is what so many of us are seeking and pursue and try to live it. But what are practical ways to to to to keep that in the in the middle where we're feeling both at the same time? Where we're thinking of God and fighting. You know, the old, what's that old Southern adage, the old man and the boy walking, here comes the tornado. And the boy drops on his knees to pray and he says, get your butt up. Boy scared prayer ain't worth the damn right now. We gotta go get shelter.

• 36:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  You know, and then other times, and I've had my Nietzschean agnostic years where I was like, it's all me.

• 36:56Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  It is all about my hands on the damn wheel. Now, I don't regret those. And as a believer, I don't, I didn't feel spiritually, God was mad at me for that. I thought he had a wry smile on his face when he was like,

• 37:17Speaker 02

  way to get your hands on the wheel. I could use some more of that, some more of y'all. But at the same time, you thought you had it. I thought it was all up to you. But I appreciate the effort. Yeah. But it was, it was, it was, I remember the feeling of appreciation and I needed it at the time because I was giving myself too much.

• 37:35Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Amnesty in places and I was getting my chassis was a little loose on the edges. And I was like, look, you gotta look in the mirror, McConaughey, grab the damn wheel, man. Like just letting it, letting it all slide on faith.

• 37:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 37:48Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, absolutely. It's, I think there's a reason why so many spiritual and faith traditions, you, you went to church on Sunday or a temple or whatever. It's like, that was the day where you were fully dedicated in faith, aligned in trust. And then you went and worked six days.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:01Jay Shetty?

  And you carried that with you and you tried to practice it as a reminder, but then you went back and then you got reminded. And then you did six days of yourself.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  About Thursday evening, you were like, I need Sunday to come.

• 38:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly. And I feel like that's where that, that third space has been lost. It's like, you know, a hundred years ago, third space theory, we had three spaces. We had church, work and, and home. And then fast forward as time went on, you had work and home. And then fast forward after the pandemic and you just have home. And they all had a purpose. It was like church or temple or community or whatever it was. It was a place that gave you the space to look back on your life and take a step back because at home you have to be dad or mom.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  It was a physical place.

• 38:43Jay Shetty?

  It was a physical place that gave you space to ask different questions. Because at work, you're just asking, how do I make more money? And at home, you're asking, how do I be a better mom or dad? But then what about, how do I do all the others? Where's the space for that question?

• 38:59Speaker 02

  So in this age where most people less than going to church less, they're going to the temples less. Is it possible, do you think, or how can we improve if you do think it's possible? Without the ritual of that third space? Because I understand the concept, man. When I'm, when I feel most spiritually strong, I'm all days of prayer.

• 39:26Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, for sure.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  My every interaction is a give and take in a rhythm of, oh, I didn't have to close my eyes.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Now, but that Sunday ritual where I did need to get my heart above my head in humility and bow in humility. Um, I saw I've got objective and saw myself from an eye in the sky. I was like, oh, are you doing, you need, do you, you're not, you're not quite doing, or you could do this thing that you think you're doing a little more truly. You could have been more benevolent in that. Oh, that was, but I, I needed that, but, but then a lot of times, I mean, without the ritual, and so many people now go,

• 40:09Speaker 02

  I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. I'm not religious, I'm spiritual.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  I think there's a lot of people that are a lot more religious than they think they are. I think there, a lot of that is that term that's coming from what mankind has done with religion. Which in the Bible, Jesus fought against was like, ah, that's not what I'm talking about. Guys, this is not, it's not, it's not, it's not, religion isn't a capitalist thing. It's not a material, but what we've done with it that I think a lot of people are fighting against.

• 40:39Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, in fairness, yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  The word means re, legare, the Latin root, legare means to bind together and re means again. So a lot of people that I hear saying, I'm spiritual and I'm for unity. I'm like going, that's religion.

• 40:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  To bind together again, that's to unify.

• 40:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, but going back to our earlier thought, language is limiting. And once a word is scarred and wounded with battle wounds of the past, it becomes less prominent today.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, I'm a, I'm a prescriptionist. I keep going back like, let's not.

• 41:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  I'm not ready to give up on original.

• 41:17Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Definitions so quickly.

• 41:19Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  And I can get, sometimes I'm pushing that square rock up the hill. Other times, they just go adapt. Don't, don't want to be called as a dinosaur, right? So how do we, again, where do we hold on to time and tested truths? Spiritual ones in this sense.

• 41:36Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  And still say, no, but let's adapt and evolve. People move around in society differently now. Maybe we don't need the third space on a Sunday, but we take the time every day to meditate, to pray. And church is where you are. It's in nature. That's where I find my church. Are those, are you think these are good supplements?

• 41:55Jay Shetty?

  What do you think? I want to know what you think.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Uh, I'd like to say they are, but I'm not sure where that evolved. I still think we need and want the responsibility, the hand, the hold. Oh, this is the day.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  This is the place. This is where I go. This is what we do. I try to short sheet that bed all the time myself.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Might I know better? And I've never followed through on go forward with the ritual. Go. I've never followed through on it and come away going, nah, six or half. I'm always like, yeah, yeah, you gotta keep doing that, man. And I'm trying to, trying to do that more as a father and, you know, head of the family. And I'm not doing the best job of it. And I'm understanding this thing, but yeah, it's where we are. It's how we think, it's how we're gracious, it's how we're, how we're thankful. Before meals, we talk about our day or we talk about philosophy or Stoicism. And I'm like, yeah, these are some of the same thing, but are they? I'm kind of making an excuse, I think, because philosophy is different than religion.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Although my favorite parts of what I've studied is religion is the stuff I can go, oh, I can take that into the week. Oh, I can use that practically.

• 43:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  And I still have trouble with burning bushes and parted seeds and stuff like that. But. That may be a failure of my own true faith. That's that that seems to be, maybe that's my own pride. Or my own pragmatism, or my own belief in philosophy. And the way we live life, which I'm in eternally interested in. But I'm, I don't believe I'm going far enough.

• 43:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  I think I'm short sheeting myself. I think there's a gap there. And I do, I think God's going, I appreciate your time. You had, you had too much pride. You're not going far enough yet. You haven't fully surrendered to the faith.

• 43:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  To belief in faith. That's my, and I think you do need that. My, my hunch is, I don't care how tired you are, Sunday morning. You, that's, that's where you should and ought to, and you know it.

• 44:04Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Go for that reason. So that's my hunch.

• 44:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. We're, we're aligned. Yeah, I, I think that what we have available today are poor conduits of a far greater depth that you get from the physical community, the connection, the communion of a direct message that feels really clear and is from source. Like, there's a, there's a power in that that I've personally experienced too. And I've dabbled in both. By the way, I'm the same. I'm, I'm the same as you. I live in a place where I don't have that community as I've had in other places that I've lived. I, I constantly make excuses and find other ways to justify my, my practice because I can't fully be at the depth that I'd like to be.

• 44:54Jay Shetty?

  And it's, and so I'm doing it too, to survive and to stay connected.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:58Jay Shetty?

  But there's a difference between surviving and thriving. And I know that when I'm thriving in my practice and my faith, it's when I'm doing it the way it was done. Now, this doesn't, going back and just to add the caveat, I think we all know it is that I'm not saying that the way it was done in all ways was done well. I'm saying that the form of connecting communion, reflecting connection, that you can't substitute that with anything else. But we're living in a world today where we need new tools. And we need things that are more accessible and people need them and are available to them. And I see them as a beginning of the journey and a bridge, not the destination.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:32Jay Shetty?

  So I think if we're building a longer bridge. Then that's healthy because if someone never starts the journey on the bridge, will they ever make it to the place?

• 45:42Speaker 02

  What are we building the bridge with?

• 45:43Jay Shetty?

  So, so for example,

• 45:44Speaker 02

  What's the brick and mortar?

• 45:45Jay Shetty?

  I guess what I mean, like if, if people are trying to do their daily meditation, they're trying to, maybe they're meditating through an app. Maybe they are trying to work out with an online workout, right?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:56Jay Shetty?

  Like if they were in the gym at a class, maybe that would be a more fun atmosphere for them, right? Maybe people are reading a book about poems and prayers, inspired by, but not directly from the source. But that's their beginning, bridge of their journey.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:14Jay Shetty?

  To that direction in their own pace, at their own time, whenever, if and when they want to go. And I, I feel like that's what, what you do and what I try and do and what so many do is we're trying to build bridges, hopefully, that are not the home. I think the problem is when the bridge becomes the home.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Amen.

• 46:31Jay Shetty?

  You don't want to live on the bridge.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:33Jay Shetty?

  Right? I, I can't remember who said it. There's a famous quote that says, um, the world is like a bridge. Don't build your house on it, cross over it.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 46:42Jay Shetty?

  And that, I don't know who said it, but it's that idea of,

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:45Jay Shetty?

  I think all of these platforms and apps and tools, they're all bridges.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:49Jay Shetty?

  But don't live there.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Don't live, or don't feel that that's home.

• 46:57Jay Shetty?

  That's it.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  I mean, let me ask you this though. Because like in the Bible, it talks about, we're all, you know, we're strangers here. We never, we don't find a home here. In some version, and I may be, uh, uh, theologically messing this up. But what I get from it is, you know, but you try your pursuit to try and make heaven on earth, which you will not, because you will never find it here till you get there. That's, that's as good as you can do. But you will always be a stranger. You'll always be an immigrant. You will always be looking for a home here on earth.

• 47:31Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Now, how does that necessarily mean that, that doesn't mean you're, we're living on a bridge?

• 47:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Or does it?

• 47:38Jay Shetty?

  I believe so. I feel like the, it's like an airport terminal. It just feels like home because we feel like it's a long time, but because it's not eternal, it can't possibly be the destination.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:51Jay Shetty?

  From a religious spiritual

• 47:52Speaker 02

  But you're trying to make home, or the pursuit of home,

• 47:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  What you see home, trying to bring it here.

• 47:59Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Trying to emulate as much as possible.

• 48:01Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Live in the light of that.

• 48:03Jay Shetty?

  It's like I'm going to France next year, so I'm gonna practice French now.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:08Jay Shetty?

  Like that, I think, is the the big picture and

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:11Jay Shetty?

  the daily step at a time. It's like, I'm trying to

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:15Jay Shetty?

  I'm trying to aspire to live, I'm gonna move country next year.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:19Jay Shetty?

  But I'm gonna practice the rules, the rituals, the the language of that country this year, because then I'll be prepared. So I don't not have a great life now. I'm not postponing joy.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 48:30Jay Shetty?

  I'm not postponing happiness or love. I'm practicing that culture that I believe is better for me.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:37Jay Shetty?

  Now, if that makes any sense.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Yes, it does.

• 48:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. What's been, I feel like you're such a I feel like your mind is like you're constantly observing patterns and observing even like languages. We've been talking. What's something that you've observed about humans that fascinates you, that surprises you maybe?

• 49:01Speaker 02

  One, our ability to adapt when there's not another option.

• 49:07Jay Shetty?

  Wow. That's a good one.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  We're elastic, man. We are elastic, more elastic than I like to practically think. But boy, when we're put to it, I'm amazed how quickly we can change, adapt, evolve, come to understand the other side. When we're put to it, you give us the option. We, you take the out, man.

• 49:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  And we argue and we go, I'm not, I ain't budging. Uh-uh. You know what I mean? And then on the flip side of that somewhat is

• 49:43Speaker 02

  How we seem to find in this pursuit of the ideal. We seem to almost say, well, that is our home. That is who we are and then go, okay. So therefore, and then we, our practice is not as evolved as we think it is. But we keep saying, and I love the, we can tap into the 11% of our mind, which we don't tap into. We can be greater, we can transcend, but practically every day, I think there's some great wisdom in going, we're not as evolved as we think we are. Let's quit acting like we are. I love the pursuit. It's like rehabilitation and justice.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  I'm for rehabilitation, man. I'm, I mean, I love the New Testament. You know what I mean? At the same time, we are repeat offending son of a guns over and over and over. And if I've done you wrong and you've allowed me to come to you and ask for forgiveness. The first order on the docket should be me. If you choose to forgive me, the first order on the docket should be me from now on, doing anything I can to not have to come apologize to you again. It's not just that you forgave and gave me the chance to be forgiven. I got some sweat equity on my side to quit doing the actions that caused me

• 51:12Speaker 02

  to have you forgive me to have me apologize again. And we don't forget, we seem to not forget that side. I love kumbaya. This is the ideal place we can go, but I feel like we relax and kind of take for granted, thinking we're that evolved and no, we're not. That's the constant pursuit. We ain't there. So let's deal with the hard math right here. And one thing we can depend on people being is people. Nothing we do is unbelievable. We do stupid shit all the time. We break our own noses because we tripped ourselves running downhill. We still, we're jealous, we covet, we talk blue and vote red. We talk New Testament and act old.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  We're entrenched in some ideas. Now, go back to that, the first half of what surprised me about people. When I was talking about the adaptive flexibility of adaptation. I remember, it was probably 12 years ago. I was in Alabama, I was doing research for a film down there, Free State of Gems. And in Mobile, Alabama, on the docket that night, the next morning, the vote had gone through about whether Alabama was going to allow gay marriage. And I'm sitting, I'm in Alabama, and I was like, I don't think that's gonna pass. Deep South Alabama, I mean, it sounds like that's a very progressive idea to them. I'm not judging it, I'm just saying as an anthropologist and sociologist, I'm like, oh.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  The next morning it passed, 53% to 47%. I was like, wow. I talked to my friends, a lot of them on the left, were abhorred. I can't believe that. Those bigots, only 53%, and I was like, only 53? I thought it was gonna be 80/20 the other way. That was a massive, talking about meeting people where they are.

• 53:06Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  It was a massive flexibility that surprised me, and that was just 12 years ago. So we have to understand where people have come from. I write about it in the book about, I wish more crimes were from ignorance. And what I mean by that is, if I know the right thing to do and I know the wrong thing to do, and I still do the wrong crime, shame on me. I knew better. But there's certain crimes we commit daily that someone just goes, I didn't know.

• 53:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Okay, now let's talk about some real rehab. Because you didn't make the wrong choice, you just didn't know.

• 53:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Now, talk about some amnesty, yeah, I've got to meet you in a different place. We have to deal with solving the problem differently than I do with the guy that knew better and did it anyway.

• 53:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Do we expect too much from people?

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Practically speaking, yes. Yes, I mean, we underwhelm and underserve and undershow a lot.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  But we all have different expectations of ourselves and of others. I mean, so again, part of that, hey, just expect it, that old expect the worst, worst the best. I don't like that. I like actually expect the absolute best. And when it comes in under that, you know, shoot for the A, make a C is better than shoot for C and make an F. When you, how quickly, when you deal with reality and go, okay, well, that's a hell of a lot better outcome. And I got more out of you and you got more out of me than we would have if we did come in going like, let's just make a C. You know what I mean? We maybe, you know what I mean? We, we went for the perfection and we came in under it, but it was still pretty doggone good. Well done. That's where I'm, I call it an, an overshow theory.

• 55:01Jay Shetty?

  How do you deal with when someone disappoints you based on your expectation?

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Um,

• 55:11Speaker 02

  I'm quicker to say, yep,

• 55:17Speaker 02

  that was reality. That's the table to do, whether it's forgiveness or amnesty, whatever you call it, with others than I am for myself.

• 55:25Jay Shetty?

  Explain.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  I expect perfection for myself a lot.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  And I don't reach it.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  And I know I can, or I believe I can. That's a better word. I believe I can. And I don't want to quit believing I can. That's sort of where I find myself in approaching life. Keep going for perfection. Keep finding that reality comes in under that. And you will have climbed more stairs. If we're going to have a vertical by the end, you will have had more quality. Your roots will have been deeper and wider inside and out vertically and to the south than if you didn't chase that perfection. The challenge for me is when reality comes in and it's served and the bells rung and there's no more time to take tests. When you see that you didn't make a hundred and you made an 88,

• 56:20Speaker 02

  how quickly can you go, instead of going, oh, dude? Or how quickly can you go?

• 56:28Speaker 02

  All right. Yay. Not bad. Yeah. So again, that pursuit of an ideal. Plus the practical, what's the next solid step? And I worked to become, I worked to try and remain as much as I can to feel satisfaction in that reality. But that's the hard part is how quickly can you go from like, I've never, I say this all the time, and I don't like it to be misconstrued. I've never made a film that lived up to my expectations. I've never given a performance that lived up to my expectations.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  I've done films and I think

• 57:10Speaker 02

  it's a lot better than I could have done. And I'm not saying, oh, I should have directed, I'm saying that was a it's awesome. It's a really great piece of art. Not transcendent. It didn't change the world or tap into a piece of humanity that enlightened myself and everyone else on a unanimous level.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  That's what I'm going for, but I had never done it. So

• 57:39Speaker 02

  why, and again, I've worked and people have made films I think are outstanding and better than they would have been if I would have been the director for sure. But that's part of, I think, maybe why when I do do good work or make good creations or good art, I think that was part of it, that I was going for

• 58:02Speaker 02

  the infinite

• 58:05Speaker 02

  pure spot in space that was immaculate. Believing I could achieve perfection, but knowing I couldn't. But I still like to believe. I mean, my, my, my favorite word in the world is unanimous.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  What?

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Ah, I mean unanimous. We don't have as many black and whites today, man. Maybe something unanimous that we can all agree on. Maybe it's a, a, a value. Maybe it's a, it, it, it, it's a way of making a living. Maybe it's a piece of art. You just unanimously go, no, that's just, that's great. It's a one of one.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  But you seek unanimous. Sammy Davis Jr., I don't know what success is. I know what failure is. That's trying to please everybody. You know, I mean, you seek, you ain't gonna get it.

• 58:52Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  There's no way, but.

• 58:54Jay Shetty?

  You still believe you can.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 58:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Still believe, to keep believing.

• 58:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it keeps me in the chase, keeps me in the race.

• 59:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Keeps me going, ooh, ooh, almost. Okay, okay, you know.

• 59:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I like that. You have to live like that. Like there, there's a, there's a joy to live like that and it, and it's a joy again. You know, it's been the theme of our discussion today. It's almost like being able to accept both. Like you said, you believe you can, knowing you won't.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:21Jay Shetty?

  And it's that what makes it beautiful because if you only believe you can, then you'll be really disappointed when it doesn't happen.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:28Jay Shetty?

  And if you only know you'll never get there, then well, you'll never do anything.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:33Jay Shetty?

  So, so it goes back to that same.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 59:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that same piece. So, so on your ranking score, where is Interstellar of your performance? Where do you go in Interstellar?

• 59:42Speaker 02

  Where is it?

• 59:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, where are you? Like your performance, like that's not, to us, it's perfect.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 59:46Jay Shetty?

  To you, it's not. So what, what is the 88?

• 59:49Speaker 02

  No, no, I think it's, I think it's very good.

• 59:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  And I, and I think the movie's really good. I think, I think the character's really good. I think my performance is really good.

• 59:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Um, I have appreciation for it and I know if I'm bogeying or if I'm birdieing, I know when I'm like, I've seen myself on screen going, oh, you're kind of bullshitting there. And then I've seen her, I'm like, bam, okay. Um, so.

• 1:00:10Jay Shetty?

  That's still 88, like not, you know.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, but I'm also, as you know from the book, I'm not into extra credit. I don't like 4.2 GPAs. That tells me like, well, what happened? Are we, then we're not given the right test. If it, if four was the pinnacle. You know?

• 1:00:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  That means not many people should be getting it, if anybody.

• 1:00:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  So now we're getting four twos, four fours. That tells me we've over leveraged the original task.

• 1:00:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Or we've added amnesty or too many places to, to not do, the, the, have the real competence and merit at the task that you're supposed to give because especially, I think in the West, because we want everyone to feel really great. Participation trophies, four point two GPA. Well, I feel better. All right, you've got the four point D GPA, start getting a three point eight education. The credit, the extra credit we give is sort of balanced with the debit of the actual, what, what we learn from it sometimes. If we give too much extra credit, so.

• 1:01:08Jay Shetty?

  What, what validation do you pursue?

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  My

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  wives, my children. Um, I have a council in the sky. Three people that are extremely important to me in my life. My dad, Penny Allen and John Chaney.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  And I see them, wink at them, talk with them, listen to them, seeing, run ideas by them, run decisions by them. And then I look up and see what their reaction is and, and, and, and I, it's been a very trusted council for me. Um, it's sort of my way to give people, practical people, physical bodies and souls that are no longer with us here on earth, physically, to put them in a heaven sense. And it's a connection, they're, they're a conduit from God to me.

• 1:02:04Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  And I have no expectations of them. And sometimes when I'm so excited, like getting this great, I look up and they're not dancing. I'm like, why aren't you dancing? Got other times where two of them will be dancing and one of them isn't. And I have to go through, oh, why? Is that something they don't understand? Or are they the underdog and I need to be listening to them because that's why they're going, mm hmm. You know better than that. I don't agree with that. Um, and then sometimes all three of them are, you know? My dad's got a, you know, dancing in his underwear with a Miller Lite and a piece of lemon meringue pie.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  Pennies up on a chair screaming out loud. My buddy John Chaney just leaning back in his old cotton yellow shorts as he do with the shoulders back going, "There you go, buh." Yeah. So I see their validation, and that's a conduit through a practical conduit in my imagination because I don't have a picture in my mind of God. And I don't, I don't, I don't think we can or should. I think that minimalized, you know, we have pictures of physical beings that have walked the earth that we can call prophets and stuff, but of God, I don't have a picture. I don't think it's an it. I don't think it's a Mr. or Mrs. or anything like that.

• 1:03:29Jay Shetty?

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• 1:04:14Jay Shetty?

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• 1:04:58Jay Shetty?

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• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  So, and then, I mean, look,

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  then inherently that all brings me back to seeking my own, my own validation.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  You know, I try to measure how I counsel and referee myself off of some of the people I just brought up to you. So that's where I pretty well stick. That's where I prove it. I don't, I don't really look outside that much further outside my circumference. Just because,

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  I can't, it's just too fickle.

• 1:06:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  It's too, I can't really, I don't have a trust, again, that goes to that Sammy Davis, you know, if you're trying to look around and go, does everyone approve?

• 1:06:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  It's gonna be, it's gonna, gonna be lonely and hard and not necessarily the best for you, you know what I mean? And I know I've pulled some things off my life where I

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  You know, people thought I changed and made of a wow, what a recreation. I'm like, I'm doing the same thing. You just put it in bold print now.

• 1:06:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  I've been doing the same thing 15 years ago.

• 1:07:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Sometimes we change by saying the same. And then other times, again, as we talked about in the beginning of the conversation, you give yourself time to daydream. You pick out a new tact about how to maybe go about something, a new way of uncovering something, a new way of solving something, a new way of finding satisfaction in a situation, a new way of dealing with a crisis, a new way of dealing with success. You know, looking at it from a different point of view, just to have another, some almost ammo arrow in the quiver in this hunt is life.

• 1:07:36Jay Shetty?

  How does someone like you who built their career on control grasp the concept of trust?

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  I'm a trust first guy.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  I come here today, whether we had never talked before. I have, I have nothing in my head going into anyone's situation. I wonder if they're trying to get me. Oh, is he gonna ask a tricky question? Oh, is he trying to play a guy? I don't, uh-uh, because that'll hang me up. I won't be able to freely think and go now. At the same time, have I been doing this long enough where before I'm about to say something or as I'm saying, I can go, oh, if you don't finish this sentence right, that's gonna be a headline in a rag bag or something. You know what I mean? I, you know what I mean? Oh, that's not gonna be the headline you want.

• 1:08:22Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Conscious enough of that. But I'm a trust first guy and I've been, and I've been burned. And I'm like,

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  I'll, I'll make that bet again because I know that I've put, that, that if I put more trust on howdy, it's gonna do something to you.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  Where maybe you aren't the most trustworthy. I've seen people become more trustworthy. I've seen people give more because they go, oh, this guy's giving me a massive amount of trust. He just empowered me, dude.

• 1:08:52Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  He just gave me, he saw a dignity in me that I didn't see.

• 1:08:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  He's given me a license, a privilege, some hoots of paw. I go, oh, okay. And I believe in that and I see that in people and it's a bit of that. You know, may what we give from our soul get a like response from others. I believe in that reciprocity. So I'm a trust first guy. I don't. The residuals for going through life without trust.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  Oh, shit. That sucks.

• 1:09:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  I mean, I also, you know, I trust myself more now than maybe I used to. And that thing has just come from growth and evolution and, and, and, you know, I used to always be a guy who, and I'm still a guy who, I don't like drawers. I like the stuff laid out. I want to see it.

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Cause if it's in the drawer, I'll forget I even needed it. I want to see it. I was always a guy who's like, if I'm gonna come in this room,

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  make sure that my keys to the, keys to my, the door in the other room on the kitchen table, leave that door cracked.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  I'm, I have more confidence now to go, you can shut the door. I know where I left the keys. I don't have to look over my shoulder again. I had this spiritually when I went into True Detective. I was in a really strong spiritual place. And that character, my relationship with God at that time was really strong. That character went into some philosophical nihilism and things that are like away from faith. I was able to go, I'm locking in and not looking back for five months.

• 1:10:28Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  And I don't need to look over my shoulder because I know when I come out of this. My relationship's good back there. I don't need to peek over my shoulder to make sure I don't have a cr- I try, I try to trust. Earlier and many other times in my life, I wouldn't have the trust to go that far because I'm like, is this okay? Am I about to get struck by lightning here? Is this blasphemous? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are we good? You know? Yeah. Okay, I'm just acting. You know what I mean? So I, I had a great amount of trust. I'm a strong spiritual then to go. And when I'm feel stronger spiritually, is that, you know, the foundation's stronger? We can jump higher, we can go further, we can not look over our back as much and trust.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  And, and you know, and we travel and trusting relationships and away from the kids. I'm away from the kids right now. It's been a week, okay, but we check in. Yeah, does FaceTime help the trust? Yeah, because you get to, there's more, there's a phone call. But the idea of the very simple, natural ideas of going, hey,

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  it's 10 o'clock, I'm, we're on the phone. I'm on one side of the world, you're on the other. But we're both under the same moon. We're both under the same sun. Sun, you're under right now, it just hadn't got to me yet, but it'll be the same one. And the moon that I'm under right now, it just hadn't got to you, but it's, it's coming. There's a, again, that time, now we're getting into the cyclical time we're talking about and not the linear, where we feel like, oh, I'm losing. Yeah. A day. No, it's coming around. It, it, it, it's all about, there's a trust I get

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  from that. And then another trust I get is if I'm, you know, it's in between that it's, it, it, it all, it means, everything means everything. And nothing matters at all. Yeah. In between there. Yeah, how do, yeah, that, like, I love that, that's how, how do we live like that? So again, trust, if I'm gonna go to the fatalist side of, uh, um, what I do doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, I'm gonna die, dude. What's the matter?

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  I used to not have the trust to go, oh, but I'm gonna still do every bit of the work to make sure. And that I'm put my hands on the wheel, right? So to go, oh, it doesn't matter. It's what I'll tell myself if I'm nervous. I'm gonna go give a speech or something. I'm prepared. I busted my tail and broke the sweat to get prepared. I'm full now if I trust that and I know I did that. Now I need to tell myself, dude, this doesn't matter.

• 1:13:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  You're gonna die. What the hell does this matter? Cause I know I'm not gonna go be lazy and then prepared and F off. So now that I trust that I will, that I'm prepared and I take it very seriously. Now I come to, I like to end it with, well now.

• 1:13:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  None of this matters.

• 1:13:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  To relax. If I go, you know, too much the other side. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm tight. I'm trying, I'm trying too hard. I'm not, I'm not giving myself the freedom to, to listen and, and, and riff and take somebody's answer and go with it. You know what I mean? So that's, that's how I try to balance the two.

• 1:13:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  But that took, but I didn't, twenty years ago, if I'd have said, and with some of us in life, if you tell them, dude, none of it matters. It's all fate, it's all gonna end in July, it's all gonna happen, it's gonna happen. People will just F off.

• 1:13:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  And go like, well, it doesn't matter how I treat you or treat me. And you're like, no, it does. But can you trust that you're not gonna be a tyrant when you let yourself off?

• 1:14:05Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 1:14:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. Well said, well said. It's that, that balancing act in everything we're talking about, everything. We just keep coming back to that, like, to be able to believe that what I'm about to do is important and then have the ability to embrace my own insignificance at the same time is, is beautiful, like.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  There's a quote I always remember hearing as a kid is like, you're just a, you're, you're, you're the smallest grain of sand in the palm of God. And for whatever reason,

• 1:14:37Speaker 02

  very early on in my childhood, when I heard that, that felt power from that. I didn't feel small. I felt like, wow. How cool. How awesome. Yeah. And in that is the idea of like, it all means something and none of it matters at all.

• 1:14:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  But it's very easy to look, think of that, that analogy and go, oh, well, so I don't matter.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  No. What can that grain of sand in the palm make you go, oh, no, I matter more than I thought?

• 1:15:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it's both.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:14Jay Shetty?

  And it's both and it's, yeah, I remember we were on a beach in South India. I was with my monk teacher. We were on a walk and it was a bunch of young monks with my teacher and it's a big fishing town. So, South India is very known for being a fishing community and there'd be loads of fishnets with, full of fishes. And then there'd be the few that had fallen out on the beach as we were walking. And whenever we'd walk past one, my teacher would pick it up and put it back in the water. It was still, you know, tossing up and down on the beach. And we were just looking at the whole beach in front of us and there were like hundreds, maybe, I don't know, maybe thousands of fish that had fallen out of the nets that won't go to be cooked in a restaurant, but won't make it back to the ocean.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:54Jay Shetty?

  And probably die in between. And he was just, every time we'd walk past, we'd pick one and we'd be like, we said to him, we were like, we're not going to be here all day and there's no chance we're going to get to all of these. And he was like, yeah, but to that one fish, that's their whole life. Like, you know, so to you, it's like, we're not going to get to 400.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:12Jay Shetty?

  Because you, it's, and so it's both. It's like, our, our work is insignificant.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:16:16Jay Shetty?

  But it's significant.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  And then that goes back to that.

• 1:16:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  That, that, that we can get paralyzed, you know, the, the think globally, act globally is another term.

• 1:16:26Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  We can get paralyzed with thinking, but I can't, it's too much sensor mount. Now just do, do one in a row.

• 1:16:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, one at a time, one step.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Just one, one at a time.

• 1:16:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  And then, you know, the sun sets and you had to be home by dark and there's still some fishes flipping. Well, get on home and you didn't get them all, but you got, you were in the asset section. Sometimes that, I think, is, is how I deal with maybe letting myself off, trying to figure out a proper balance of forgiveness and saying, no, the buck stops here.

• 1:16:55Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  You know, something goes on, like, man, I'm not, I don't feel like I'm, this is magic or this is absolutely beautiful. Or this is absolutely true. I'll go, okay. Not everything in life is going to be that, but are we in the asset section? Are we in the black, so to speak? Is, is, is the thing you're doing?

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, uh, on, on a proton. And not, not an electron. Is it, yeah, it is. Doesn't harm, you know, sometimes, you know, I mean, I do this in, in work. Some scenes are magic. They come to life, you just know. Some scenes you get in, you're like, dude, I'm just connecting the dots. Let's just get out of here without, you know, I don't have a great truth to tell. Let me just get out of here without telling a lie.

• 1:17:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Sometimes I have to let myself off and go, not everything's gonna be a wow. Magical truth. Sometimes it's just till the soil and don't tell the lie. Don't, don't trip yourself. Don't hit the ball out of bounds.

• 1:17:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  Take one and it's in the rough. Yeah, you didn't hit it out of bounds. You're still, you're still playing. Stay in the, just stay in the game on the upside. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  Sometimes it's just that.

• 1:18:03Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  I remember when I had an acting teacher, I did a performance one time and I was real happy with it. She came back, she was like, not bad, but every single scene, it's like you're trying to hit a grand slam. Matthew, sometimes you need a single. Sometimes you need to take a ball that was not in the strike zone. Sometimes you need to lay down a bunt. Sometimes you need to, and I was like, oh, that's right. Not everything's a grand slam. It's not every single thing matters. If we think, you know, it's like, if we think every single thing is significant. And everything matters will be, nothing will have significance.

• 1:18:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  We'll be paralyzed by minutia and details and stats. There will, there will be no baseline to any of it. There will be no song, it'll all be notes. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, the idea of significance evaporates if everything was significant.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Jay Shetty?

  There is no, there, there would be nothing that

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:57Jay Shetty?

  stands out.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Guy have a negative space.

• 1:18:59Jay Shetty?

  Or special, yeah, it just wouldn't, it wouldn't hold. The idea wouldn't hold anymore.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:03Jay Shetty?

  What's the first, when I asked you the question about validation, the first person that came to you,

• 1:19:09Jay Shetty?

  at least what you said out loud was your wife, um, who's here too. And, uh, I was wondering what, what do you feel is the biggest mistake we make about love?

• 1:19:20Speaker 02

  Biggest mistake we make about love. Ooh, groovy, groovy question. Thank you. And she's back there probably listening right now going, I can't wait to hear this answer. Hey, one of the biggest mistakes that I think I know I could make is taking it for granted.

• 1:19:39Speaker 02

  Again, we're on the same topic we've been on. You vow to love each other and say a marriage, for instance, and it's through sickness and health until the death and I love you, my love's not in question. It doesn't mean it doesn't take maintenance to take it for granted that, oh, that's,

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  we're fine. I'll take it for granted. Oh, we got, you know, we got the kids, the family. It's all great. To take that for granted sometimes and not do the maintenance,

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  which shouldn't feel like work, but is, it's, it's, it's conscious. It's, it could take work. It can be a thought and a choice you make to go,

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  that little thing, I'm making my tea. She's not up. I really want to get to that puzzle for those eight pages.

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  I make her one, put it in a Yeti and have it covered. So when she gets up, it's ready. A little, a little thoughtful, a little thoughtful thing like that. Was that work? No.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  Is that delayed gratification for the relationship? Yes. You know, that's gonna, you know, that, that, that, that'd be a nice thing to do for them. If I don't do it, it's starting to be missed. As a, as a small example.

• 1:20:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  I think another one with love, and you and I touched on it, I think before cameras were recording, is the idea that you find the one and that's the one. And, and, and, and wow, I make, the male makes them Wonder Woman and they think we're Superman. Oh, shit. Don't do that to me. And don't let me do that to you. I can't live up to that.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  You can't live up to that. Back to unanimous and seeking perfection, that's a tough nut to handle when you're like, project that on someone that's unfair to project onto them. And they projected on you and neither one of you can live up to it. It's the idea of the, and I, and, and, and this is not a popular statement with my wife, but I think it's, for me, it's true. And I hope maybe, maybe I'm too practical about love. Maybe I'm not romantic enough about it, but I don't see how the honeymoon period lasts forever. I just, the honeymoon is all on the hope, the possible.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  We don't know each other as well as we're gonna know each other. It's before we get married and we make the consecration, the covenant of marriage. And now we're getting into some real stuff. And we got real pains and real pleasures and real responsibilities and real fatigue and real wins together. And we're building, we've expanded and they've got a family and oh man, we're bonfire. But that's harder and it's not honeymoon's only in the, the perfection stage. It's only in the up in the air, why the, the, the, the youth of it, the beginning, the springtime, the fresh bud. And I love it, but it's if you try to hold on to that hundred watt bulb to be the light

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  all the time, you're Wonder Woman, I'm Superman. It seems to be humanly impractical to live up to it and unfair to each other. There's a preacher down in San Diego, my buddy Mark Norby turned me on to him, forgetting his name. But he talks about, no, no, no, it looks more like a, it's a thirty watt bulb. Dim the light a little bit, it'll last longer, it'll illuminate longer, not as bright, but it'll last longer and it's more realistic for you and her. It's more human and it's still lovely. It's always stuck with me.

• 1:23:36Jay Shetty?

  I've never heard that, yeah.

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:23:39Jay Shetty?

  It is true. Which honeymoon period lasts as it is? And things can go deeper and be more powerful and be more profound, but not be the same. And that if you just dated someone new for three to six months, every year you'd experience the honeymoon period every year for the rest of your life.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Peter Pan honeymoon. And it's fresh and it's transient. It was all brand new, but it didn't have all four seasons. You didn't get into act two where the conflict comes, where somebody's getting sick.

• 1:24:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  Where you didn't get to act three,

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  where you got to land the plane and figure it out and come down and be on your deathbed going, love you too.

• 1:24:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  I did, we did all right. You know what I mean? I always, it's a, I'd always, in my younger years of them, like, what do you think? There's a God and you see him. What do you, what do you, what do you think he's gonna say to you? And I was always like, I think he's gonna say, thank you. This hit me five years ago. Five years ago, I was like, no. That's a bit arrogant there, Pox. What he's probably gonna say, meet him, he's gonna say, you're welcome.

• 1:24:52Speaker 02

  In that is a, a way I'm seeing life more now. And to some extent have, have before, but in that is an inherent sort of, what are we doing? You know, is life long? Is it short? Hard, is it easy? I don't know. It's hard and in some ways it's really long. In some ways it's really short.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  It's easy sometimes, but.

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're welcome.

• 1:25:32Speaker 02

  And I can say, thank you. Yeah. But I've got a, yeah, we've talked about, I'm happy to, I'm happy to, and I'm not gonna shy away from with still being sensitive to people, musicians that are like, it's for you to say, McConaughey. I don't understand, you're welcome to me, you know what I mean? I'm not living a life. And I, I, I wanna be open and understand that. At the same time, I'm very happy and level-eyed with, with saying and believing that, and having a life where if I meet, yeah, they're gonna, he, she, it's gonna go. You're welcome.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  And that

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  lays into that, I wrote it in green lights, but I do have a hunch that the world's conspiring to make me happy.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  Again, I may be off my rocker, I may be, I may be a

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  a conspiracy theory for the upside, I may be delusionally optimistic and I, I don't care. I, I, I actually believe it. It's the trust first thing. And I actually believe it. And I believe I'm a part of a lot of other people's army that are there conspiring to make them happy. And I believe that I've got a lot of army that are going,

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  not consciously, just, I believe, I look, I believe, I know, I know a lot of people in my life that believe, know that if I'm around, I'm looking out for, and I have their best interest in mind. Whether they know it or not, consciously. And I know I have a lot of people in life. Some I know, a lot I know, a lot I don't. That are like, looking out for you, McConaughey. And I'm very thankful for that, but I believe that. And it is, yeah, I know it's true.

• 1:27:17Jay Shetty?

  Do you think we can all build that belief?

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  Yes. I do think we can build that belief.

• 1:27:25Jay Shetty?

  Everything's conspiring.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  I don't think we can rely on that belief. I do think we can build that belief. I do think that.

• 1:27:33Speaker 02

  Well, I'm raising, you know. Kiddos, we're going to ACL kiddos. We're going in backstage. Come on, me and your mom are here. Past the security guard, lets us in.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  Did y'all say thank you? Yeah, we did, or no, I did. Well, go, go, go say thank you. Why? I don't know. Let's think selfishly, bud. 10 years from now, when you're at the concert and your mom and dad ain't here, who got you in backstage to the, to the front of the line? And you're 20 people back in the line and they're saying, no more, that's it.

• 1:28:11Speaker 02

  It's a chance that security guard may look down and go, hey, Levi, come on up. Come on in. Because you said thank you.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  I'm not saying be that way for like, oh, then I can get more, I'll get more privileges. I'm just saying where you go, how you interact with people at whatever height in the back kitchen to the back door, to the alley, to the homeless, to the billionaire, to the president, how you interact with people, it's, it, it, you're slowly building

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  an army. I had this, I tell this example and

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  I was coming home about two years ago, two lane highway. And it was all parked just on kind of a traffic jam, it's taking, we just moved five miles an hour stop, five miles an hour stop. And there was a lady in a car here. And we just moved into this new home. Lady in a car here. And everyone's like, you know, get forward as quick as possible. And she was waiting to get into the turn lane. And so I was like, we're not going anywhere. I slowed down, let her in. 15 minutes it takes to get home. I'm noticing I'm right behind this lady. As I approached my house, she pulls in the driveway to the first driveway before I get to my house. I pull in my house, I get out of my car, it's my neighbor. I didn't know it was my neighbor, but I'm like,

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  I got somebody inherently watching over my house from now, I'm not here from now, because I let her in back there. Yeah. And she goes, thank you for letting me in back there. I'll remember that. Did I do that because I'm hoping I can get a neighbor and part of an army that can keep an eye out for me? No. Did I get? An army, someone on my side?

• 1:29:53Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 1:29:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. The conspiring point too, I think if you, if you believe that everything's conspiring for you to be happy, you just start to notice those moments. And I think noticing is so much more important than thinking, because we all think, but we don't always notice.

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:30:12Jay Shetty?

  It's like, what do we notice every day? If you notice the security guard who opened the door, if you notice the, you know, the lady who eventually becomes part of your army at home. It's like, what are you noticing? Because you can notice both. Like, I think I could sit here with you and I'm sure you could tell me two stories. One story of everyone who screwed you over, took advantage of you, exploited you, where the trust first didn't work.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Jay Shetty?

  And I think you're telling me another story today, which you're noticing, which is you saying, oh, yeah.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do we, yeah, what do we notice? What are we aware of? What do we give credit to?

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  I think that's part of the athleticism of life. Because

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  that doesn't mean I'm not skeptical.

• 1:30:58Jay Shetty?

  Correct.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  It does mean I'm not cynical. It doesn't mean I'm not clever and wise and letting my home be just pillaged and I got a lot to protect and I protect it. It doesn't mean I'm foolish with myself, with my things and my life and the family and things I built. But yeah, what do I, what do, what do, what do we notice? What do we give credit to?

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  And go, oh, let's tend that garden. Let's multiply that. Let's get some compound interest on that ROI. Let's make that epidemic.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  Not the disease, not the wreck, not the harm. I'll talk about it in points of prayers. Make the positives plural.

• 1:31:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  And the negative singular.

• 1:31:50Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  And don't talk about the negatives.

• 1:31:52Jay Shetty?

  Amen, yeah.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  In the present tense. If they happened, talk about them in the past tense. You stop their path to prophecy. That's the noticing thing. And that doesn't mean don't, oh, no, I don't see the negatives. No, no, no, that's childhood. Hey, Hallmark card. Dream it, you can do it. Positive thinking. I am.

• 1:32:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. See how far that gets you. You know what I mean? You'll be done unto and the, you know, so we go from innocence to naivete to skepticism. And then if we can hold off there from going off the ledge into that fourth one, which is a disease, cynicism.

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  I'm all for skepticism. And noticing the negative, seeing the harm, noticing the disease. But sure like to spend time and notice more and compound the interest on the prevention of those cures or the multiplied factor of the good things that are conspiring to work for us and are just like, there we go. That works not only for me, for you too.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  Like those epidemic, again, I love flip, flip, flip the word epidemic's always used. It's just something like, oh, no.

• 1:33:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Speaker 02

  It's like consequence. We all go, oh, not, not the consequence. Like, no, you get consequences with everything. And the positive side, the pleasure side of consequence is just as valuable as the negative. You gotta, you know?

• 1:33:19Jay Shetty?

  Epidemic selfish consequence. Those are the three that, that you're gonna fight for. Matthew, I could talk to you for hours and hours and I've been so grateful for your time and energy. We, we end every episode with a final five, which you did last time. So we reconstructed them for you. These questions have to be answered in one sentence, but I'll probably want you to riff. So feel free, don't, don't feel any pressure.

• 1:33:40Speaker 02

  Okay, but try to get them out in one sentence.

• 1:33:42Jay Shetty?

  You can try, but if, but I would like you to, I want you to free flow, but yeah. You're always the best when you're free flowing. So I don't wanna, I don't wanna hamper you.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:33:51Jay Shetty?

  And yeah. Question number one. What do you believe makes a good dad?

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  Time being there. You know, always say this is.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  That's what makes a good father.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  You know, well, sometimes we're under the illusion that if we make the baby with father.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  No, you're not. You may be the daddy papa, but it takes time to be a father.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  To be there for your children. To balance.

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  Sharing with them what you already know so they can learn a little quicker and hold them back and letting them fall from that tree limb and bruise their arm on their own because that's how they remember it. Because even though you knew. Sometimes there's certain heights, I call like tree limbs, there's certain kids go out on limbs.

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  And if we brush every limb they go out on, I mean, they're on the limb and they're, they're, they're five years old and it's, it's five feet above the soft St. Augustine grass. If we rush over there and go, get down, get down, get down, they, no, no, no, you're gonna, you're gonna stump their growth and their, they have fear of heights. Kids don't fear, aren't scared of heights until they die, until they fall. All right. Let them go out there. That's a safe fall. They may get a bruise. Now, there's certain ones that they're 60 feet up.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  And it's a concrete, you might want to go, hey bud, I was thinking, come on, just take your time and come on over to the trunk and shimmy on that, maybe get a help and get them down from that. But certain limbs, let them get on the end of it. Let them, let them fall, let them, let them get bruised. Let them, they'll remember that from experience. And so, yeah.

• 1:35:52Jay Shetty?

  I like it. Uh, question number two. What does it mean to be a real man?

• 1:35:57Speaker 02

  To be a real man. Well, you know, staying on the fatherhood thing, and this is not just the only definition, but I'll piggyback off the last question. The only thing I ever knew in life I wanted to be was a father. And it is because I remember I was eight years old. My dad was a big yes sir, no sir man. So he would introduce me to his friends, right? And I would always, as eight years old, looking up from four, five, six, seven, eight years old, shake their hand, yes sir, nice to meet you sir. And what hit me at eight years old was that all of those men whose hands I was shaking, called them sir, they were dads, they were fathers. And in my eight year old mind, I went, oh, that's how you make it. That's success. Come a father.

• 1:36:42Speaker 02

  That's how you become a man. That's how you become a king. So that's not answer across the board, but that's gonna be my answer.

• 1:36:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love that. And I learned to do three because of time. Last one, what does it mean to be a good friend?

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah. A good friend reminds a friend of the best in themselves, the truth in themselves. Whether it's there to say, yeah, just like that, when they are the most themselves, or whether it's there to go, hey, you know, you got this other way. When in a situation you handled like this, and it was so pure, man, and it kinda didn't go that way this day.

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  So it's saying hard things and helping them kinda renegotiate or showing to them objectively, hey, I see who you are, you've shown me who you are. And then when you're you, I'm over here going on.

• 1:38:01Speaker 02

  And I take great pleasure in seeing you succeed without me.

• 1:38:07Jay Shetty?

  Wow, wow, that's powerful.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  A good friend really takes honest and earnest pleasure in seeing their friend succeed with,

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  without them.

• 1:38:22Jay Shetty?

  We, to end, we got a little note from a good friend of yours.

• 1:38:26Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:38:26Jay Shetty?

  Uh, who sent it in, and I think it would be better if you read it out loud than me because it's for you. And so I'm gonna hand it to you and you can uh, read it out loud.

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  What we got here?

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  I marvel at how you move through this world. Amazing actor, bestselling author, innovative entrepreneur, first-rate father, husband and son. But more than anything, a brilliant philosopher. And it is that philosophy that pervades everything you do. One that intertwines curiosity with poetry. From the time I met you nearly thirty years ago, I knew you were my brother. And you continue to inspire me to this day. Love you, buddy Wood.

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  P S, miss our cuddle time. Me and Camilla, that is.

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  Perfect. Ah, thank you, buddy.

• 1:39:26Jay Shetty?

  Thank you.

• 1:39:26Speaker 02

  He is a great friend. He is a great friend. Boy, he is a good friend to me. I love the way that he loves me. It's really, really beautiful to receive.

• 1:39:42Jay Shetty?

  Well, Matthew, thank you for your time, your energy. Whether I'm reading your books, whether I'm in your presence, or whether I'm listening to you. As I said to you before the first time I interviewed you, I listened to your acceptance speech from the Oscars every day for thirty days, once upon a time in my life. And there are only two speeches I've done that with. One is Steve Jobs's commencement speech at Stanford, and one is your acceptance speech. I listen to it every day for thirty days and it, in turn, I find when you do that, it internalizes ideas and um, concepts and energy in a way that.

• 1:40:16Jay Shetty?

  You don't get if you don't repeat. So very grateful to you for your life, your work.

• 1:40:20Speaker 02

  You're welcome. And thanks for sharing that with me.

• 1:40:22Jay Shetty?

  Thank you.

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:23Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  I had a wonderful time.

• 1:40:25Jay Shetty?

  Appreciate it.

• 1:40:26Speaker 04

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:40:56Speaker 05

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 1:40:57Speaker 06

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 1:40:59Speaker 05

  Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 1:41:06Speaker 05

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  Taylor Hansen? Nice.

• 1:41:13Speaker 06

  Try one.

• 1:41:14Speaker 02

  Mmm.

• 1:41:18Speaker 05

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.

• 1:41:26Speaker 07

  This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden, a bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames, the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden, October 1st, only on Netflix.