Dr. Rangan Chatterjee: #1 Way to Break a Bad Habit & Why 50% of What Doctors Learn in Medical School Turns Out Wrong

What bad habit do you want to break? What’s a health tip you no longer trust? Today, Jay welcomes back Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, a UK-based physician, bestselling author, and podcast host, to discuss his latest book, Make Change That Lasts. Known for his holistic approach to health and wellness, Dr. Chatterjee shares nine transformative strategies to foster sustainable change in daily life, offering a blueprint for physical, mental, and emotional well-being. The conversation explores why many health and lifestyle changes fail to stick, diving into the importance of self-awareness and the power of mindset. Dr. Chatterjee recounts how Western medicine often focuses on treating symptoms rather than promoting vitality, advocating for a harmonious blend of Western science and Eastern wisdom. He emphasizes the role of lifestyle choices—nutrition, movement, sleep, and even mindset—in shaping our health. Jay and Rangan tap into practical tools and methods for understanding and addressing emotional triggers behind habits. They stress the significance of environment and relationships in fostering or sabotaging personal growth. Dr. Chatterjee also challenges the notion of harsh self-discipline, advocating instead for compassion, curiosity, and self-trust as the cornerstones of lasting change. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Build Habits That Stick How to Create a Supportive Environment for Change How to Reframe Negative Inner Narratives How to Trust Yourself Instead of External Advice How to Manage Stress with Mindset Shifts How to Take Control of Your Health with Simple Choices Change doesn’t have to feel like an uphill battle—it can be an act of self-love and empowerment. Trust yourself, listen to your inner wisdom, and approach each step of your journey with patience and grace. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:50 Make Change That Truly Last 03:18 The Chronic Lifestyle-Driven Illness 05:58 Transformative Change Comes From Within 10:16 How Do You Break a Bad Habit? 16:17 Unbecome Who You’ve Become 27:08 What are Your Non-Negotiables? 37:31 The Root Cause of Wellness Failure 43:34 The Way You Do Things Matter 48:13 Do Fitness Trackers Work? 53:04 Why Do People Think the Way They Do? 01:03:48 You Can Change Yourself Episode Resources: Dr. Rangan Chatterjee | Website Dr. Rangan Chatterjee | Instagram Dr. Rangan Chatterjee | YouTube Dr. Rangan Chatterjee | TikTok Dr. Rangan Chatterjee | Facebook Dr. Rangan Chatterjee | X Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee Make Change That Lasts: 9 Simple Ways to Break Free from the Habits That Hold You Back See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 2:16Jay Shetty?

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• 3:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  All behaviours either come from the energy of love or the energy of fear. The more powerful question is not which expert should I trust? It's why do I no longer trust myself? UK-based physician.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Over a million people listen to his podcast every week.

• 3:24Jay Shetty?

  Dr Rangan Chatterjee. You say that when you enter medical school, 50% of what you were learning was going to be wrong at some point.

• 3:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  We just don't know which 50%.

• 3:34Jay Shetty?

  What would you say is the number one advice for someone who says, I want to break a bad habit, it just can't happen?

• 3:42Speaker 03

  The number one health and wellness podcast.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.

• 3:51Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose. I'm so grateful that you come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favourites, Dr Rangan Chatterjee, a UK-based physician, an author, wellness expert, and podcast host, known for empowering people to take control of their health through simple lifestyle changes to rethink it. His sixth and latest book, Make Change That Lasts, offers a personalised approach to simple nine strategies for lasting change in daily life. Life to unlock long lasting health and happiness. This, I truly believe is Rangan's best book yet, and that's saying a lot.

• 4:34Jay Shetty?

  He's had some incredible books out the last few years. Go and grab your copy right now. You won't regret it. And make these nine strategies a part of your daily life. Welcome to On Purpose, Dr. Rangan Chadji. Rangan, it's great to have you back.

• 4:49Rangan Chatterjee?

  Jay, I love coming on your show. You're such a wonderful host and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

• 4:54Jay Shetty?

  No, it's so great to have you here always, Rangan. Like, I really enjoy our conversations. I enjoy our interactions offline as much as I do online. And I remember when you were talking about this book with me when you were first, I think, putting it together. And there was this excitement that you had and this look in your eye where it was like, this was the first time. It was like a medical doctor was writing somewhat of a philosophical, spiritual book.

• 5:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 5:18Jay Shetty?

  But with a scientific lens. And I think it's come together brilliantly. So congrats on trying to mesh those things together.

• 5:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, thanks. It's the book that my heart wanted to write. I would say more than anything I've ever done before, this has come out to me. It had to come out of me. And I'm in that funny position, Jay, where I feel that I've already had the success through writing the book. Yes, I hope it lands with people, but even if it doesn't, like I've won by writing it. And it's been a really authentic process. And frankly, it's about something I'm super passionate about, which is helping people make change that lasts. I think the title says it all. We can all make change, but often it's only for a few weeks or a few months. How many people can make change that truly lasts? How many people can truly transform their lives for good?

• 6:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's not as many as we would like. And this book is my attempt to help people solve that problem.

• 6:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's brilliant. I mean, talking about change, I want to go back to something you say in the book. So you say that when you went to medical school, 50% of what you were learning was going to be wrong at some point. You just didn't know which 50%. And so I wanted to ask you, what's something that you learned at medical school that today you believe to be untrue and you've discovered new truths about?

• 6:38Rangan Chatterjee?

  Well, we were actually taught that. It was a professor at Edinburgh Medical School who said to us, I can remember being in the Anatomy Lecture Theatre and he said, guys, 50% of what you learn is gonna turn out to be wrong. We just don't know which 50%. And I think that has huge relevance for all of us, actually, and I'll come to that shortly. But in terms of one thing that I learnt that I now believe not to be true, I'd almost flip it the other way in the sense that I was never taught how much our lifestyle can impact our health. I was taught that actually people come in to see you and they have a set of problems.

• 7:21Rangan Chatterjee?

  We need to hear what those problems are, collect them, give them a label and then give them a pharmaceutical treatment. Whereas the more I practise medicine, and I've been a doctor for 23 years now, I realised, wow, that only helps us for a small fraction of people. And if you flip it, it's like, no, our lifestyles, the way we eat, the way we move, the way we sleep, but also the way that we think and the way we approach adversity, those things all combined together to create our health. And Jay, I think you'll resonate with this. One of the things I've realised over the past couple of years of really reflecting on the way we're trained in Western medicine,

• 8:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  and this is not me saying I'm anti-Western medicine. I think Western medicine is exceptionally good at many things, but unfortunately, for most of the things we now see, the chronic lifestyle-driven illness, it's just not as helpful, right? And fundamentally, Western medicine teaches us that things go wrong in the body, right? We get taught to diagnose disease and treat disease.

• 8:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  We don't get taught how to create health. How do you create vitality? What are the factors in someone's life that allows them to live their best life? And with our culture, with our Indian backgrounds, Ayurvedic medicine for many years has been talking about this. Traditional Chinese medicine has been talking about this. So for me, it's not a battle of eastern medicine versus western medicine. It's what is the best of western? What is the best of eastern? How do we blend them together? And I'd like to think that I've done that throughout my career and hopefully in this book, give people a real practical toolkit.

• 9:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and that definitely resonates. And I wanted, the one thing that caught my eye when I was reading the book, I wanted to ask you, why have you never told a patient to quit smoking? To just quit smoking? Why have you never said that?

• 9:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  I've never told a patient that they must give up smoking. Because I don't think that's my role. And I think this is where we go wrong in medicine and frankly, in any relationship. Because what is the relationship I have with my patients? It's a doctor-patient relationship. But this principle kind of works. Parent-child, husband-wife, boyfriend-girlfriend, these are just human relationships. Nobody wants to be told what to do by somebody else. At some point, if you're going to make transformative change, it's got to come from within. So one of the things that I've always rebelled against in my career as a doctor is this rather paternalistic approach, that we get taught in medical school, that doctor knows best.

• 10:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  Patient comes in, you tell me what the issue is, then I'll tell you what's wrong with you and what you need to do. Some people may be able to make that approach work. I couldn't. And I'll tell you why I couldn't. If a patient comes in and asks for my opinion, that's very important. One thing I've tried to change in my life over the past few years is never to give unsolicited advice. Right? So if the patient's in in front of me and says, Dr. Chastity, listen, I'm not feeling good. What impact is smoking having on my health? I feel that my role as a fellow human being is to explain to them what impacts I think smoking is having on their health.

• 10:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Now, if at the end of that conversation, if I'm confident that they've understood me and that they've retained the information and they say, hey, Dr. Chastity, I understand what you're saying, but I get so much enjoyment out of smoking that I'm prepared to put it with the consequences. I don't feel that's my job to change their minds. I feel it's a deep respect that I have for my patients. If they understand it and they want to do it, I'm okay with that. And I'll tell you, Jay, what I've learned over the years is that by taking that approach, I feel I've had really good compliance with my patients, like really good compliance. Like, a lot of doctors will say, I have this course called Prescribing Life-Some Medicine

• 11:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  that I created with the Royal College of GPs with a friend of mine, with a colleague. And we have trained thousands of healthcare professionals around the world in the principles that I talk about in this book and my previous books. And one of the things people would say to me, doctors would say, hey, Dr. Chastity, listen, I get all this, but patients don't listen to what we tell them. And even the way that they phrase that is really interesting to me. I don't tell my patients what to do. It's not my role. I want to connect with my patients. I want to then educate and empower them, but I always want to connect first. So going back to your initial question, why do I, why have I never told a patient that they must give up smoking? It's not my role to do that. And here's what happens.

• 12:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  When you treat people like an equal, you don't look down at them, you don't think that you know better than them. What will often happen, they may say, I want to smoke, right? I understand, but I enjoy this. They'll come back two months later, be like, hey, Dr. Chastity, you know, I said I wanted to keep smoking because I enjoy it so much. Actually, I've been thinking, can you help me start to change that? But often if you say, you must give up smoking, it's going to give you cancer, it's going to increase your risk of heart attacks, I just don't think that works in the long term. You make short-term change, but as per the title of this book, you don't make change that lasts.

• 12:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  And that principle, frankly, as I say, applies far beyond the doctor-patient relationship.

• 12:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I mean, I love hearing that because I think there's such a humanity to it and also... A big part of making change that lasts is someone making change for themselves.

• 13:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 13:08Jay Shetty?

  They really believe that this change will help them be a better parent, a better professional, a better person, a better functioning human. And if I feel pressured into making change, or if I feel pushed into making change, then chances are I'm going to fall right back into that habit. So if someone does come up to you and say, "Dr. Chatterjee, how do I break a bad habit?" What would you say is the number one advice for someone who says, "I want to break a bad habit"? It just can't happen. It's just never happened.

• 13:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  There's many ways of tackling bad habits, but if you're asking me for the number one tip, it would be related to our environment, right? So we don't realize how much our environment influences our behavior. I feel that being here in L.A. I've been here for a week now. The people I've been hanging out with over the past week are really into health and wellness, right? So everyone around me who I'm interacting with wants to eat well. They want to go to bed early. They want to look after themselves. So even though I'm away from home when I'm in this exciting city, I naturally respond, right? It's been really telling for me. And it really gave me an insight as to if you live in an environment

• 14:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  where your family, where your friends, where the things you have in your house are encouraging unhelpful behaviors, you're going to be struggling, right? You're going to be constantly fighting your environment. So what does that mean for an individual who's trying to say to me, "I want to eat less sugar", for example, which is very common, right? Especially at New Year. I have said to my patients for years, "If you don't want to eat it..." Don't bring it into your house. Don't exercise willpower in your house because you have to exercise it as soon as you walk out the front door. Now, that's been very, very helpful for so many of my patients and it's kind of what I do in my own life.

• 15:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  Even though I really understand my internal triggers these days, which I think is really important, I just don't make life more difficult for myself than I need to. I won't bring into my house the potato chips, the chocolates, the biscuits, whatever it might be, because I know I'm human, just like everyone else. At some point, I'll come back stressed and tired and I want to open the cupboard and see what's there. Nothing wrong with that. If people are doing that, I don't want them to feel guilt or shame, but I think they need to understand that if you have it there, it's going to be harder for you. Now, related to that example, I have an exercise, Jay, that I'd love to share with your audience, if that's okay. Please, I love it.

• 15:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  As a doctor, many people will say, Dr. Chastity, I know that excess sugar is not helping me, but I can't stop, right? I'm really good in the day, but at 9pm, do you recognise this, Jay? I used to. I've worked really hard at this, but yes, I empathise. It's really common, right? It's where people have been, you know, in inverted commas, good during the day, but at night, their kids are in bed or they're sitting on the sofa, there's a box set on, I really feel like ice cream. So I have this exercise that I created for my patients that has been so helpful, that I've used with myself, called the three Fs. Okay? The three Fs are feel, feed and find. Okay?

• 16:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  So if someone's listening, Jay, and they have this issue, which I suspect will be quite a lot of people, I would say, okay, you're sitting on your sofa, you're craving the ice cream. Okay, just take a pause, just for a second, take a pause and ask yourself the first F, feel, what are my feelings? Is it physical hunger? Or is it emotional hunger? Okay, ah, well, you know what? I'm actually not physically hungry. I had a huge meal one hour ago. Oh, I feel a bit stressed. I feel a bit lonely. Whatever it might be, then go ahead and have it. Okay? I just want you to start building in some self-awareness, which is the missing piece in behaviour change with people, if you ask me, the big thing that we're missing. The next time you're on the sofa and you're...

• 17:21Rangan Chatterjee?

  You can do this all in one go if you want, but you know, some people find it difficult. So the next time you're on the sofa, I would say, do the first F again. What am I feeling? Then go to the second F, which is feed. How does food feed that feeling? Ah, oh, I was feeling stressed. Want to have ice cream? At least in the short term, I feel less stressed. Okay, cool. Now you're developing a bit of an understanding as to why I'm engaging with this behaviour. Okay, great. If you want to eat it, go ahead and eat it with no guilt and no shame. Go and enjoy it. And then the next time, go through those Fs. What am I feeling? How does food feed the feeling? Which is the second F. And then the third F is find. Now that I know what the feeling is,

• 18:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  now that I know how food feeds that feeling, can I find an alternative behaviour to feed that feeling? So it could be, oh, I feel stressed. That's why I go to sugar. What else could I do instead of sugar? Oh, I really like yoga. Maybe I'll go on YouTube and do a 10-minute yoga sequence. Maybe you feel lonely. You've been on Zoom calls all day. You haven't seen your friends or your partner. And it's a bit of a treat to yourself in the evening. That's very common. You know, people aren't hungry, but they just, it's a little treat to themselves. Okay, how else could you nourish yourself? Oh, well, maybe I could run myself a bath. I'd have a 10, 15-minute bath to myself. Maybe I'm feeling lonely.

• 18:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  I could phone a friend or a parent, whatever it might be. Every single behaviour we engage with serves a role in our life. You'll only change a behaviour in the long term if you understand the role it's playing. So that is, it's a very simple exercise. I've described it through the lens of sugar, but the truth is you can apply that to anything. You can apply that to alcohol, three hours doom scrolling on Instagram, online pornography, online shopping, whatever you want. It's a simple exercise, which are my favourite kinds of exercises, that can be very, very powerful once you start engaging.

• 19:28Jay Shetty?

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• 20:11Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. The best habits are the ones we hardly notice, the ones that quietly shape the way we move through life, giving us the confidence to focus on what really matters. That's Mazda's approach to safety. Every Mazda is designed with proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected and more engaged with your drive, so you can stay present behind the wheel. That commitment has earned Mazda recognition as Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. And as of July 2026, Mazda has won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus awards than any other car brand.

• 20:56Jay Shetty?

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• 21:40Jay Shetty?

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• 22:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  With it.

• 22:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think it's spot on. I think if you think about it, we're constantly chasing a feeling, an emotional fix, and we usually turn to physical tangible things that we think are going to make us feel that way, right? As you said, like, really what I'm trying to do is lower stress. And I've just created the mechanism to think, if I want to lower stress, I need to indulge in ice cream. And that's the connection we've made. Whereas like you're saying, there's so many other ways. And actually, it could be a natural source of sugar. It could be a low sugar product if that's what you're after. It could be, as you said, a yoga session, breath work, whatever it may be. Now, what I find though is that when you first try and make that change,

• 22:59Jay Shetty?

  it literally feels like you're fighting against yourself, right? It almost feels like there's this internal battle. And I'm, I'm at the point now, having worked on some of these things for a while, I'm at a point now where I believe my taste buds have actually changed.

• 23:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 23:14Jay Shetty?

  The feeling and the desire has evolved and I'm able to deal with it in a healthier way. But there's that middle part where you feel like you're just like, come on, I've got to give in, I've got to give in.

• 23:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, you said two key words there for me. And these are the two missing words, I think, in behavior change. Internal struggle.

• 23:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  This is really what I'm trying to get across to people. Every single behaviour is downstream usually from something inside you. And we're living in a world where we want to consume more and more information, get more and more knowledge, which is helpful up to a point. Now, I'll come back to that point, because I think it's a really important one. I just want to address what you said about it feeling difficult. Out of those three Fs, the most important F is the first one. Why? Because it suddenly just breaks you out of your repetitive cycle. I feel stressed, I want some ice cream, I go to the freezer and before I know it, I've had half the tub. That is very, very common. You think that's who you are.

• 24:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's not who you are, it's who you've become. And you can unbecome it if you start to do that first F. It is simply the knowledge that I can take a pause. There is a gap between the stimulus and the response. When you are repeating your behaviours day to day, when they become habits, whether good habits or unhealthy habits, there's no gap. There's a feeling, there's a stimulus and there's a response. Usually an unhealthy response in this current climate, right? For many people. So that first F creates a gap. Now, people will often say, yes, but you know, and then now that I'm aware, so what? What can I do? I'm like, wait a minute.

• 25:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Ninety percent of change, in my experience, is that first F, is understanding, oh, this is why I'm going to it. Sure, it may take a few weeks, it may take a few months to really work on our relationship and start to tweak it. Because how long did it take you to develop this relationship? Maybe you've been using sugar to manage stress for 20 years. You're not going to change that in one week in January, just because you wake up thinking, I want to make this year the best year of my life. You're not going to. It is a process of change, but what people miss, Jay, for me, is that that process where you learn what this behaviour is doing for you.

• 25:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  You struggle, you sometimes can't make the change that you want, other times you can. That process is where the gold is. That's when you're learning about yourself. That's when you get the mastery about yourself. Oh, I always, when I have a row with my partner, I don't feel good. So yeah, I want sugar. Or when I'm alone or I'm traveling for work and I'm away from my wife and my kids. That's when I just wanna spend three hours on Instagram because I'm looking for connection. That's where the gold lies. And for me, Jay, the most important chapter in this book is chapter one, which is called Trust Yourself. And I don't think we're talking about this enough in the health and wellness space.

• 26:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  People are getting confused, right? You must get this on your show like I do on my podcast, right? This idea that despite our best efforts at trying to navigate the complexity. What I often find, Jay, is people will say to me, not often, but it happens enough that I know that this is an issue. Dr. Chachi, you know, two months ago, you had this credentialed expert from Harvard. And they said, this diet is really good, like a ketogenic diet is really good for mental health. And they, they sound really trustworthy. They've got all the credentials and they've quoted four or five research studies to back up what they think. And I thought, okay, amazing. And then last week, you spoke to another doctor, also well-credentialed, who said, no, a vegan diet

• 27:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  or a whole food plant-based diet is best for mental health. And presented five studies to support what they have to say. And people would contact me and say, Dr. Chachi, I'm really confused, right? Both of those experts, they sound great. They've all got research to back up what they're saying. I don't know which expert to trust. And Jay, what I've realized is that's the wrong question. The more helpful question, the more powerful question is not which expert should I trust? It's why do I no longer trust myself?

• 27:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  That is the magic to behavior change. You have to start tuning into the signals your body is giving you. So using that example, I would say to someone, hey, I tell you what. Why do you have to choose which one's right? Maybe they're both right for certain people, but they're not right for anyone. Right? So I would say, okay, try this expert's diet for four weeks. And whilst you're trying it, pay attention. Pay attention to what's going on. What's your energy like? What's your vitality? How are your relationships? How's your sleep? How's your focus? How's your concentration? Pay attention. Okay, I tried that for four weeks. Now, let me try this other person's diet for four weeks. And again, pay attention.

• 28:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  I promise, if you start paying attention, you will very quickly find out what is the right diet for you at that moment in your life. And I feel that we're not talking about this enough. We're still, we've, we've got to a point, Jay, where we've outsourced our own inner expertise to external experts. I'm not saying ignore external experts, right? You have some great experts on your show each week. I have some great experts on my podcast each week. But you should listen to their advice and put it through your own filter. And then you figure out what works for you. And honestly, if you would say, what is the key thing you've learned in 23 years of seeing patients?

• 29:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  I've seen tens of thousands of patients. I've learned many things, but I would say no one approach works for everyone. It just doesn't. And when we try and make it work for everyone, it's a problem because people feel like failures.

• 29:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 29:34Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? People feel, oh, I'm following the expert's advice. I'm doing what they said to do. It's not working. There must be something wrong with me. They start to feel guilty. They start to feel like they're a loser. They start to have shame. Those things never lead to long-term behaviour change. And you know, the other thing, Jay, I've learnt, and I love your view on this, because I think it probably resonates with the way you see the world. I think we focus too much on the behaviour. For me, it's the energy behind the behaviour. That's the most important thing. You need to go, what's behind the behaviour? And I've realised that in life, all behaviours either come from the energy of love or the energy of fear.

• 30:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  If it's coming from the energy of fear, so guilt, shame, I'm not good enough. Those changes will not last in the long term. I've been doing this a long time. I have seen it. It lasts for January, it lasts for a few months, it doesn't lead to long-term transformation. Because your behaviours are in conflict with the way that you see yourself. If it's coming from an energy of love, that I like who I am, I want to improve my life, that I'm going to be compassionate to myself. Those changes, it can be the same behaviours, working out, eating well, going to bed on time, getting eight hours sleep, whatever it might be, it can be the same behaviour. But if the energy behind it is from the energy of love,

• 31:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  that's when the changes start to become long-term. And I really get, I don't get frustrated, nothing frustrates me anymore. Really, if I'm completely honest, because I've been doing the inner work for many years. I just, I can stay quite detached from things, I just see them for what they are. But as a doctor, I guess, I believe we made behaviour change so difficult, Jay. I don't even say it's hard anymore. And I'll tell you why I don't say that. I used to say, you know, I know it can feel hard, I know it's hard, as a way of trying to empathise with people. But if we say, if we constantly say, oh, it's difficult, or it's going to be hard, we're prejudging the experience of people. Sure, it may feel challenging, but it doesn't always have to.

• 31:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I've experienced that myself. So five years ago, Jay, I would have a very hard, very harsh inner voice. So on January the first, I would be very much, I'm going to meditate this year, like 20 minutes a day. And I'd do it for 14 days and I'm, I feel like I'm rocking, yeah, this is it. I've got meditation down this year, then I'd miss a day. The self-talk would start. Man, you couldn't do it. You couldn't do it wrong, could you? You know, you were a loser, whatever. I used to have a really harsh, negative voice not that long ago, but I have completely changed it through all the things that I share in this book, right? I've completely changed it. Back then, behaviour change felt difficult because it was in conflict with how I saw myself.

• 32:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  Now that I like myself, dare I say, talking to a fellow Brit that I love myself, right? Can you imagine in the UK saying that, you know? I do though, not in a narcissistic way, but I like who I am. I think I'm a nice guy. I'm kind, I'm compassionate, I help people. I'm no longer competitive, as I've talked to you about on a previous episode on your show. Like, I just want to raise people up. When you feel like that, and everyone can feel like that if they know which levers to turn, behavior change becomes so much easier because you're not trying to fight yourself. Does that all make sense?

• 33:08Jay Shetty?

  It makes a lot of sense. I mean, two things came to mind as you were speaking. The first was, you can't change something you hate. You can only change something you love, and that includes yourself. Because if you hate something, how much energy will you give it? How much focus will you give it? How much direction will you give it? Whereas when you love something, you'll be present with it, you'll be right there with it. And I feel we're trying to hate ourselves into change.

• 33:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Jay Shetty?

  And you're so right. I remember years ago as well, like, having a very, very harsh, negative inner voice. And it did all the things you said. I would shame myself, I would guilt myself, I would judge myself, and none of that helped me change. If anything, it took longer for me to get back to where I wanted to get to. Because when you fall off after 14 days of meditation, now when you're judging and guilting and shaming yourself, you feel like you can't do the thing unless you can be perfect at it.

• 34:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, and then you go to more unhelpful behaviors. And in some ways, I've realized you would have been better off never doing those 14 days in the first place because you feel like a failure. And, you know, it's interesting. Someone once asked me about what are your non-negotiables wrong in? I'd have realized, Jay, I no longer have any. Because a non-negotiable to me feels like a harsh rule. So let's use that through the lens of this meditation practice where I tried for 14 days. I miss one day, I beat myself up. Now, yeah, I meditate most mornings, but not every morning. And if I miss, I'm like, okay, yeah, sure. I didn't do it today. I'm a better person. I'm a bit calmer when I do meditate. Yeah, I must make sure I do that tomorrow.

• 34:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's a very different relationship. The energy behind the behavior is completely different. So I was like you, Jay, I want to make it practical for people. So I have these three questions I ask myself every morning. But one of those questions I think really applies here.

• 35:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  So you teach your audience, Jay, on a consistent basis about living an intentional life, a purposeful life, right? And I think a lot of people don't realize how powerful the mornings are. We all have a morning routine, whether we think we do or not. The question is, are we intentional about it? Have we thought about the consequences of how we start each day? Because some of you say, oh, they're not for me. You know, it's a bit cliched, this idea of a morning routine, whatever it might be. And I'm like, no, no, you've got a routine. You just may not have thought about it. So what I've learned, Jay, over the years is that so many of our thoughts, our feelings, our behaviors are downstream from the content we consume.

• 35:49Rangan Chatterjee?

  So if you wake up and the first thing you do is going onto your phone and go on the news and see the negativity that the news is telling us from all over the world, you go onto your work emails and see the backlog that you didn't complete, or whatever it might be, you go onto social media and get caught up in an argument, or whatever it might be. Does it really surprise you that half an hour later, you may be a little reactive with your kids or your partner? Or you may feel a little negative about the state of the world? When you look at it like that, I think it's quite obvious. If that's what you're inputting into your brain, think about it as software. That's what you're inputting in. Of course, the outputs straight after that, for many people, is going to be negative as well.

• 36:34Rangan Chatterjee?

  If you have a more intentional start to your day with a bit more positivity, I don't, I'm not talking about toxic positivity or fake positivity, just intentionally going, whether it's gratitude, I mean, one of the questions I ask is a gratitude question. What is one thing I deeply appreciate about my life? It helps shift your mindset and where you're going to place your attention. But where I finish my morning routine is with this, what I consider to be a very powerful question. What quality would I like to showcase to the world today? It's a simple question, but it's very, very powerful because it forces you. Let me rephrase that. I don't even like using the word force anymore. It feels a bit of an aggressive word, right?

• 37:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  It doesn't, it feels like it's coming from the energy of fear rather than the energy of love. I have the opportunity each morning with that question to set the intention of how I wish to show up. So often it will be, I wish to showcase the quality of patience today or compassion. And you write it down, I write it down in my journal and I think about it. What would it look like today to show the quality of patience or compassion? Ah, you know, if I get caught up in a, in a, in a traffic, I'm not going to stop berating people. I'm just going to smile and be kind. If I get an email I maybe don't like, I'm going to just take a breath and actually not respond in the moment.

• 38:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  If my wife says this to me or whatever about the dishes or whatever, I'm just going to go, hey, it's cool. You know, maybe she's having a bad day and I'm just going to smile and be compassionate. It sounds too simple to work. This is transformative. It really works now just by setting the intention. It doesn't mean that you're going to be perfect. So I have a couple of questions I ask myself in the evening, which helps balance this. What went well today? And what can I do differently tomorrow? So what went well today could be, again, it's a form of gratitude. It could be that, you know what? I had a really busy day. I didn't take a lunch break. I got home late, but I still found 20 minutes to make my family a home cooked meal

• 38:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  instead of ordering takeout or whatever it might be. Okay, you're just going, because we have a negativity bias, instead of focusing on all the things that you didn't get done and the stress in your day and what, you know, how you behaved or whatever, you're putting your attention on what you did do, which I think is very powerful. But then the second part of that question, Jay, is really interesting. What can I do differently tomorrow? So it could be that you say, you know what? This morning, I said I was going to be, show the world the quality of compassion, but at lunchtime or at 4pm, I was really tired. I didn't like the email that my colleague sent me and I quickly sent an annoyed email back. Okay, no worries. Again, we're looking for love, not fear.

• 39:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  So you can say, ah, what I can do differently tomorrow is I can try harder. Tomorrow, if that same situation arrives, I'm going to respond differently. And I tell you, sure, doing this for one day may not do much. You do that for seven days or dare I say even 30 days? The way you experience the world will be completely different. You will have made this small, like one degree shift each day that in the moment doesn't feel like anything. 30 days later, you will be like a different person. I've been doing this subject for maybe five years now. And like I was sharing with you before the mites were rolling, I've never felt this good.

• 40:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Like I have this deep sense of peace these days and inner calm.

• 40:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I've worked at it. Some of the things I've shared already. Many things I haven't shared that I put in this book. This is available to everyone, Jay. Like, I absolutely believe that I have seen throughout my career, people in the darkest of places, suicidal patients who through these kind of practices have managed to completely turn their lives around. It is possible to everyone. But I think we're going about change a lot of the time in the wrong places. Right? We talk about creating healthy habits. It's important. And I've written a book about that in the past. And I know the rules of healthy habit formation. You know, make it easy. Stick on the new behaviour onto an existing habit.

• 41:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  Those things are very, very helpful. But they still don't get to the roots. And my attempt with this book is to help people go, no, no, no, there are things that you don't know that are driving you in your life. A lot of people don't realise, Jay, that their behaviours are driven by their beliefs. So if you believe that somebody out there knows what is best for you more than you, that is going to dictate your behaviours. Your belief is that someone else knows better. So you're going to be every few months looking for a new expert to follow. Every January, you're going to buy a new health book to say, oh, you need to go on a 30 day sugar detox. You need to cut out alcohol. You need to cut out ultra processed foods.

• 41:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  These things are all well and goods. But I submit to you, Jay, that many people, dare I say it, most people who are listening to shows like yours or mine kind of already know that excess sugar is not helping them or excess alcohol is not helping them. I don't think they need more external knowledge of, oh, alcohol will do this to your liver or sugar will do this to your teeth. People know that. They need more internal knowledge. They need insight, intuition. And in my view, the way you develop that is with some intentional time each day. These questions, meditation, journaling. If you're constantly in your life,

• 42:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  you never step out of it to reflect on it. It's not about the behaviour. It's about the energy behind the behaviour.

• 42:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it resonates very strongly with me. And To kind of encapsulate what you're saying, what I'm hearing and what I've found to be true is that if you really want to make a change, it comes down to your most repeated thought, your most repeated words and your most repeated actions. And what you find is you already have a most repeated thought. I'm not good enough. I can't do it. That life's not for me. And this goes back to your point. That's what your beliefs are. Your beliefs are just your most repeated thoughts. And now it feels like that's who you are. And then naturally, those become your words. So when someone says to you like, oh, how's that new habit going? Or, you know, how's the workout going? Or whatever you go, oh, you know, I can't, I can't keep up.

• 43:21Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 43:22Jay Shetty?

  And now you keep repeating that. And everyone you meet, you go, oh, yeah, I gave up after seven days. And now that's your language. And then that naturally leads on to your actions. And so what you're talking about, which I really appreciate, because it is harder to talk about, which is what is the root. But for all of us, anyone who's had a lasting change, it's been a root issue that's been solved.

• 43:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  Always. And this is why I'm so passionate, Jay, about this idea. You know, I've been in this health and wellness space publicly for 10 years now. And for all the benefits of this increase in information, and of course, there are many, like, people are better educated now than ever before about health and wellness and what we can do. But we have to confront a very uncomfortable truth, which is despite all of this increasing information, people are getting physically and mentally more sick. So I was trying to solve this problem. I was trying to go, I don't want to just write another book with more information on what you should do. I want to help people understand why they are doing it. And again, talking

• 44:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  to root causes and maybe feeding back to what you've just said, this, I think, is the most under-taught aspect. This is the most under-appreciated aspect of health for me. Let me make it really practical for people. Many of us are trying to change our behaviours. And I know I've used sugar and alcohol a few times just because I think they're quite common and quite relatable for people. People don't understand that the way they interact with other people directly affects that behaviour. So for example, you're driving to work in the morning and there's a bit of traffic and someone cuts in front of you. Okay, we've all seen it. Maybe we've experienced it where we start to create all this mental noise.

• 45:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  Oh my God, stupid driver, they shouldn't have done that. They need their eyes checked, whatever it might be. And we think that we're entitled to do that and we are, right? I'm not here to change anyone, right? You've got to change yourself. You're entitled to react like that. Just know that there's a consequence. One of the themes that underpins every chapter in this book is that emotional stress is not neutral. So we think about physical stress, but we don't think about emotional stress. So a driver cuts in front of you. There are many ways to react to that situation. If you take a disempowering narrative and create all of this anger and stress and noise in your head, you've generated emotional stress.

• 45:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  You will need to neutralise that emotional stress in some way or another. Now, you could do it in a healthy way by going for a walk or going to the gym. Usually what people do when they get to the office is they need an extra coffee, they need to go to the vending machine and get some sugar, they need an extra drink after work. And then they think, oh, I'm drinking too much in the evening or I'm eating too much sugar, I need to change that. But they don't realise that actually the way they dealt with that driver on the road that day, because it's not just that, that's the pattern they they use for everything in their life. I say this with an open heart, we almost make ourselves a victim to life.

• 46:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  We think that the way we feel is down to the way other people treat us. And I understand that we like other people to treat us well, but you can cultivate the skill of not having your inner state as dependent on the world around you. So you can develop the skill, and I share how to in this book, with practice. You can basically go, wow, what other story could I create here? Oh, maybe.

• 47:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  That mother has had a sick child up all night with earache and they're just rushing. Maybe she's on her last warning with her boss and actually if she's late one more time, she's going to lose her job and that's how she feeds her family, right? The truth doesn't matter for your inner wellbeing, it really doesn't. And you can choose to start looking at the world this way and what you will find, yes, it might feel challenging at first, so you have to consciously think about it, maybe not in the moment, maybe in the evening, and I'll share a practice that can help people with that, but over time it becomes your default. Whereas now, you know, I've been in LA traffic this week, I've heard you guys talk about it all the time, oh, I've experienced it.

• 47:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  I'm running late for some interviews, I'm just, I'm totally chilled, I'm like, I can't do anything about this, nothing I can do. You can train that response and I think last time I came on your podcast, Jay, I think I shared the story of Edith Eager, the 93-year-old lady who was in Auschwitz when she was 16 and I shared the powerful narrative she would use in her mind to reframe her existence there. And I won't tell that story again, but I'll remind people of the final thing that Edith Eager told me when she came on my podcast. She said to me, Dr. Chastity, I have lived in Auschwitz and I can tell you the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison you create inside your own mind.

• 48:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  And the penny dropped for me, Jay, in that conversation, literally, I thought, that's it, that's what we're all doing. We're interacting with the world, with other people, we're creating these disempowering narratives, we're making ourselves a victim to the world around us without realising that we have the power to shape the narrative on every single situation. Most situations in life, you could even say all, but that gets a bit triggering for people, so I say most situations in life are neutral. It's the perspective we take on that situation that determines its impact. You want to change your behaviours. If you're someone who has been trying to make changes in January for the last 10 years

• 49:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  and you keep buying a new book and you keep trying a new detox plan or whatever and you're still ending up where you were the year before. You have to ask yourself the question, am I taking the right approach? Is there something I'm missing? Is it more external information I need or more internal information?

• 49:35Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market,

• 50:16Jay Shetty?

  who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in store or online.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 50:53Speaker 05

  Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 50:59Speaker 06

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 51:03Speaker 05

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 51:06Speaker 06

  I'm not the first man.

• 51:08Speaker 05

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not admitted without parent.

• 51:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and I really appreciate the direction of getting people to trust themselves. I mean, I've seen that time and time again. Remember a couple of months ago, I was trying a really high protein diet, the amount that's recommended, and I just, it didn't work for me. It just didn't work for me. Like, trying to eat my body weight in protein was far too much for me personally. And I didn't feel good. I was feeling more tired. I was feeling actually more bloated. I was, it just didn't work. And, and it was like, well, this is all the studies say. This is all the research says.

• 51:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  Even within those studies that are done, right?

• 51:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 51:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  We think the studies show this. When you look into most scientific studies, right? Let me try and make it um super simple to understand for people. Let's say there was a study done where a hundred people were put on one diet and a hundred people put on another diet. Which one is better? And then on balance, we'll say, oh, this one, this one statistically was better. But it doesn't mean that a hundred percent of the people were better on that one. There would have been some people who were better on the other one. But overall, we say that one worked. What we're saying is that that one worked for the most people in that study. It doesn't mean it will for you. And this is where I think

• 52:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  the differences between researchers and clinicians. You know, I, I I feel one thing I'm really good at. And again, I don't say this with any arrogance. I feel I'm really good at connecting with my patients and I'm, I've managed to help them make transformative change, many of them throughout their careers. And I've, as you know, I even showcased what I do on BBC One back in twenty fifteen and twenty seventeen, where families who were sick, were under GPs, were under specialists, with type two diabetes, panic attacks, fibromyalgia, menopausal symptoms, irritable bowel syndrome. I either helped everyone fully reverse their conditions

• 53:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  or get them significantly better, like eighty percent better in just six weeks, using nutrition, lifestyle and mindset. That's not blaming people. It's showing people, educating them that, oh, the way you do things matters. How you live each day, the choices you make, the way you talk to each other, right? These things really play a role. And Jay, I often think, you know, I was thinking about this on the plane over to LA this time. Rangan, why do you have such a, I don't know if I can call it a unique perspective on health, but it's not the normal perspective, I would say, that most medical doctors have. Would you agree with that?

• 53:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, most, yeah, compared to most, absolutely.

• 53:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I think one of the reasons why, and there's many reasons, including my cultural upbringing, probably similar to yours, where we grew up with this more holistic approach, these ideas that food is medicine, all those kind of ideas. But I think my filming that BBC documentary series over two or three years, I think it gave me an insight that very few doctors ever get. Even if you're a disenchanted doctor and you think 10 minutes is not enough, which it isn't, and you figure out a way to spend one hour with your patients. What I learned on filming that series, when I would live alongside families for four to six weeks, sometimes I'd stay overnight in their house, okay? I got to see stuff that people rarely get to see.

• 54:38Rangan Chatterjee?

  I got to see, oh, wow, they've got these symptoms, but I'm noticing how the husband and wife are talking to each other in the evening. Oh, I wonder how that relationship is impacting their physical health. And I would do this with all kinds of families in all different areas of the UK. So it gave me a rather unique insight where this idea is that literally 99% of what happens to your health, I know this sounds really obvious, it's, it's outside the doctor's surgery. It's how you live your life, it's how you approach adversity. And so I think it's, it's kind of given me this rather unique view. I think my, my 23 years of clinical practice has also taught me that there's no one right approach.

• 55:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  So you, as you say, you can hear all the experts online you want telling you about the high protein that you need.

• 55:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  And you could keep trying it, or you go, wait, well, you know what? I don't think that's the right approach for me at this point in my life. And that's, that secondary bit is another key piece.

• 55:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 55:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  It might be later, but right now for the state of your life and your health, it's not working for you and we need to learn to trust ourselves more.

• 55:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. I like that addition as well. What's your take? We've talked a lot about self-awareness and the importance of it. Obviously, right now, everyone's getting really excited about fitness trackers. What's your take on them?

• 56:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  There's a section on this actually in the book because I think it's a really important thing to think about. So I currently have one on. I've been slow to adopt fitness trackers and I'll tell you why. A key theme in this book is about reliance and that we're overly reliant on things outside of ourself, on people treating us well, on all kinds of things, expert knowledge, whatever it might be, and we need to become, what I say in the book is minimally reliant, not zero reliance, but less reliance. I think trackers, health trackers, fitness trackers can be good and they can also be bad. It depends on who you are. So we've got all these, you know, new fitness trackers, but let's talk about another kind of tracker that's been around for a while.

• 56:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  A blood pressure monitor, right? They've been around for 30, 40 years, something like that. That's a form of health tracker. Maybe it's not as high tech as some of these new ones, but it's a form of health tracker. What I would notice, Jay, in my practice for years is that many people would say, Dr. Chancy, should I buy one from the pharmacy and use it at home? And initially I would say, yeah, great idea. Then you can check what your blood pressure is doing. And then what I noticed is that, oh, wow, maybe 50% of people, and this is a rough guess. It's not a scientific study. Half of my patients would use regular blood pressure checks at home to empower them. Right? So they'd be like, oh, wow, okay, it's going a bit high now. What's going on?

• 57:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  And they'd use it in a very helpful way to get to know themselves better and make positive changes. The other half, I think it was harmful for them. They would get stressed out, they would check it four times a day, they would get health anxiety and that would paralyze them. So I thought, wow, it's not the tracker itself that's the that's the issue. It's our relationship to the tracker. That's the theme throughout this conversation. It's our relationship to it. So if you're someone who can look at that tracker, whether it's an Apple Watch or a whoop band or an Oreo, whatever, you know, whatever, you've got a Garmin, you know, if you're able

• 58:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  to use it to help you get to know yourself better and it helps you make positive changes, I think they can be very, very helpful. In fact, I'm on a two month experiment at the moment with with this one that I've got on and it's really helping me understand myself better. Oh, this is what my heart rate variability is like when I eat a bit later at night or, you know, when I've been on a transatlantic flight, whatever it might, I'm like, I'm learning about myself. I'm getting a deeper understanding of myself through this. Now, I think it'd be very helpful, but some people have got a very unhealthy relationship with them. They're obsessed with them. If the battery's not working, they start to stress out, oh, I don't know how to exist.

• 58:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  And the truth is, there are some scientific studies which show us that they can be problematic. So there was one study, which I write about in the book, where in essence, a simplified way of describing it is they took these groups of people and put them in the lab. One group were only allowed to sleep for five hours. The other group were allowed to sleep for eight hours, right? But there's no clocks anywhere.

• 59:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  And then they told the group who slept for five hours that they slept for eight hours and the group that slept for eight hours that they'd only slept for five hours. And that impacted their energy levels through the day and it impacted their physiology. Right? So that's a really powerful study and there's many more like that, which all that does for me, again, let's not get, let's not use that study to disempower us. That's interesting. What does it show? It shows that some people can have an unhealthy relationship with these devices. Some people can have a helpful one. And if I think about that through the lens of me and my wife, right? I love getting data.

• 59:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  I can be very detached from it. It doesn't affect me. If I see a low readiness score in the morning, I can be detached from that and go, wow, I can still perform even with that. Right? I will often not check for days, right? Or once a day, once every two days, I'll go on and check my data. I don't want to become dependent or reliant. That's the key. So I can't tell you, Jay, are these good or bad? It depends on who you are and what's your relationship to that device. And only you will be able to answer that question for yourself.

• 1:00:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's a great answer. It's a great answer. And I, and I, and I fully agree. I think it goes back to what the common theme is, as you said, it's our interpretation of the event, of the data, of the information. And I guess then going back to what you said earlier, your only non-negotiable has become being kinder to yourself. Like, that is your non-negotiable, like the ability to always turn towards not judging, not shaming, not guilting, but giving yourself that space and grace to just operate and think it through.

• 1:01:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, it's funny, but words are interesting, aren't they? I guess the word non-negotiable for me these days, maybe because I used to have such a negative voice in my head, I kind of feel that everything's negotiable in life, right? So I don't know, let's take an example. Violence, right? I could say that I'm a calm person and I would never be violent, right? But hold on, there's always a situation in life that might challenge that. What if I was on a street with my two beautiful children and someone was trying to attack me or attack them? Would I turn to violence to protect them? Yeah, I think I would, right? I wouldn't intentionally want to do that.

• 1:01:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  So I could say that being kind and compassionate and non-violent is a non-negotiable. Or I could be a bit more realistic and go, well, I think in 99.9% of situations in life, I'm going to be kind and compassionate, or I'm going to certainly have the intention to be, but I can foresee a situation whereby, yeah, maybe I would turn to violence. Do you know what I mean? I think it's that complexity and nuance. So for me, if I say it's a non-negotiable,

• 1:02:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  Again, for someone else, they may like the term, but for me, it's not to program me with this harsh taskmaster. I must always do this. I can never, I can never fall from this. So for me, I personally don't use that term, but I totally welcome other people, like if they want to use that term, I think it's completely fine. And I think it's all highly, highly individual. We have to find what works for us. I don't, I don't believe anymore that anything for me is non-negotiable. I think I set an intention about how I want to live, but always knowing that the situation could change. Now, Jay, I'm here in LA, right? Maybe two weeks after the election. And it's remarkable for me to see certainly online,

• 1:02:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  the division, right? And I remember maybe six or nine months ago, when your current US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy was in London, he came on my podcast, we had a wonderful conversation. And he said to me back then, one in six Americans are currently not talking to a family member because of their political views. And I suspect that's even higher now, from what I can tell. Now, I'm not trying to wade into politics here. I'm trying to take a step back and go to me, and I'm not American, right? So I acknowledge that, put that out there. To me, it seems like madness, right? There's a chapter in this book called

• 1:03:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  Take Less Offense, which is an over-reliance on being right, our need to be right. And I explained in that chapter that nothing in life is inherently offensive. If it was, we'd all get offended to the same thing. If it was that thing that was offensive, all of us would find it offensive. If we don't all find something offensive, it means that thing isn't offensive. There's something inside of us that's been activated or being triggered. So that whole chapter is about helping people understand that you don't need to take offense to everything. You can choose not to. You can choose to go, wow, why has that person got a different view to me? Why does that person see the world

• 1:04:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  so differently from me? You know, I think I might have shared this last time I was on your show, Jay, but that one of the phrases that has been transformative for me is if I was that other person. I'd be behaving in exactly the same way as them. And what I mean by that is if I was that other person with their parents, with their childhood, with the bullying they experienced, with the friends they had at school, with their first boss who bullied them on the workplace, whatever it might be, if I had their life, I would probably see the world in the same way as them and I'd probably act in the same way as them. Now, this doesn't mean I'm saying this excuses poor behaviour. No, I'm not saying that.

• 1:05:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  What I'm saying is, instead of jumping to judgement of other people, which I think is a toxic behaviour, I think it's a behaviour that won't help you make change. I used to be judgmental and not anymore. You can change this. We said before how our behaviours are driven by our beliefs. None of us came out of our mother's womb with these beliefs, right? We didn't. We developed them based upon what we experienced throughout our life. It's a much lighter way of interacting with the world when you go, wow, why do they think in the way that they do? Now, you don't have to choose that approach to life,

• 1:05:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  but if you're someone who's walking around taking offence to everything, okay? And I say this, I promise you, I say this with compassion, Jay. If there's anyone listening who thinks that they're a person who's constantly berating the drivers on the freeway, taking offence to everything they see on social media, my invitation to that individual is, hey, that approach to life may not be serving you. You may have an over-reliance on being right. And in that chapter, I make the case that actually, thinking that everyone in the world is going to see the world in the same way as us, in a world of eight billion people, is actually quite an arrogant way to think.

• 1:06:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I'm not judging when I say that I used to think like this, Jay, right? So, why I share that is because I want people to know I know what that feels like and I know you can change that. If you choose to not take offence and interact with compassion, why does that person think the way in which they do? You will naturally make better choices because you're not generating that emotional stress. You go on Instagram or Twitter or X and find a comment really irritating or someone's viewpoint really offensive and start to get involved with them. Of course you can do that. That might be why you struggle to reduce your alcohol intake or your sugar intake,

• 1:07:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  because you're getting addicted to that noise, that emotional stress. And let's relate that back to what I said about Edith Eager before. This lady who survived Auschwitz and at 93 is full of compassion and forgiveness. And even said that she's forgiven Hitler. Right, let that land for a minute. It doesn't mean that what Hitler did was right. She's not saying that. What she's saying is, I'm no longer going to allow what he did to affect me and my life and how I interact. There's a big difference. People get, there's a whole section on forgiveness in the book. People really misunderstand forgiveness. They think it means that I'm saying that that was right and it was okay. It's not that at all.

• 1:07:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  One of the daily practices I did after my conversation with Edith, which is still probably one of the most powerful episodes I've ever had on my podcast, is every evening, because as I say, you often can't do it in the moment. Every evening, once my kids were in bed, when they were a bit younger, I sit down and I'd ask myself, Rangan, where did you get emotionally triggered today? When did an email piss you off? Right? When did you react to someone whilst you were driving? And instead of putting the blame on the other person, on something outside of myself, I asked myself a question. What is it within me that's been activated by that external action? Why did that email bother me?

• 1:08:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  Oh, it reminds me of something my parents said to me when I was a kid. Oh, it reminds me of a boss I had a few years ago. Oh, it's highlighted in an insecurity, like criticism, right? We both exist in the public domain. We, we have to, you know, we get positive comments. We also get negative comments, right? That is just part and parcel of life. Not everyone is going to like how I put across my messages. That's okay, they don't have to. Some people will say, I'm the greatest podcast host on the planet. Some people say, I'm the worst and I talk over my guests and whatever. Do you know what? They're both right for them. Right? Do you know what I mean? It's really important. So I've, what I've learned about criticism, because criticism generally doesn't bother me anymore because I've learnt to be emotionally detached.

• 1:09:21Rangan Chatterjee?

  I've come to the realisation, Jay, that criticism only bothers us. To the degree we believe it about ourselves. I don't know your relationship with criticism, but certainly for me, I realize, oh, the reason that bothers me is because it triggers an internal insecurity. Now, I can get annoyed at the person delivering the criticism, or, and maybe it's out of order, maybe they shouldn't, but I'm not sure how much that helps you. You can't control whether someone is or is not going to criticize you. What I can control and what I can work on is my internal state. Oh, I'm insecure about that. Let me write down why. Let me think about that. Maybe if you have access to a therapist, sure, go and see one, talk about it.

• 1:10:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  That is the secret to long-term change, Jay. It's not looking outside for the answers. It's going, what is going on inside of me? That exercise, like if people take nothing else from this conversation, Jay, I would say that is one of the most powerful things you can do. It will take you maybe five minutes every evening. And you don't realize, people do not realize how quickly their lives will start to change when they take full responsibility for their reactions. You're no longer dependent on everyone around you acting a certain way to feel good. You become like a master in yourself. Like in martial arts, we want to be black belts. This is your way of becoming a black belt in yourself. And I love it.

• 1:10:49Rangan Chatterjee?

  And going back to what I said before about the process of change. If you commit to doing this, you will learn so much about yourself. You will learn why certain things trigger you, why you go to sugar, why you go to alcohol, why you can't stop scrolling Instagram for four hours every evening. You will learn about yourself. And I promise you, that is much more powerful than any expert ever telling you that. And I say that. As a so-called expert myself.

• 1:11:19Jay Shetty?

  Make change that lasts, Rangan. It's been really a joy talking to you today. I mean, the thing that's staying with me and resonating with me most deeply about what you just shared is this idea of taking accountability, taking responsibility for ourselves, for our feelings, for our health. I think it's very easy to say, I did this because this person told me, oh, I feel this way because that person did that to me. Oh, that person's diet didn't work. And you're so right. We've been trying to outsource our health, our emotional health, our physical health. And I love the ownership and the empowerment that you're offering everyone through this book, because that's really what's missing.

• 1:12:03Jay Shetty?

  That's really what the struggle is, is that we haven't taken ownership of our own life. And that's what I feel you're encouraging us to do.

• 1:12:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I really am, because Jay, not only have I experienced it myself, because what I said at the end of the introduction is I say effortless change actually is available to you. Once you work on this stuff, change doesn't become as hard as you think. I think the reason we think it's so hard is because we're going about it in the wrong way. And I think, I mean, certainly, we spoke about this beforehand. I think, I think what I've stumbled across through my career and through my own lived experience are, I think, some universal human truths, right?

• 1:12:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think, for me at least, what's exciting about this book for people is that you're going to learn concepts that you're not used to learning about from a medical doctor. There's like elements of philosophy, spirituality, yes, physical health and habit formation. It's all there. And I think from the bottom of my heart that this is the most important book I've ever written. I think it's going to have the most impact on people. You're very kind enough to give a quote for the book. But remember, one of the first people outside my team to write it was Dr. Gabor Maté. And Gabor read every single word and he sent me the most wonderful email and he goes, Rangan, this is. Just wonderful. This is your most insightful book yet. This is gonna help so many people.

• 1:13:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  And coming from someone I really respect that much.

• 1:13:39Jay Shetty?

  I love him. Yeah, he's amazing.

• 1:13:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  I was so touched. I was so touched. And so I think this is the only journey that's worth taking is understand your inner world. Stop relying on those external experts so much. I'm not saying ignore. I'm not saying ignore the science. I'm not saying ignore external experts. I think we've gone too far. It's all about what does the experts say now? I'm like, no, let's just bring it back. It's too head focused and not enough heart focused. So let's just wind it back. Let's use our head, but let's also use our hearts.

• 1:14:12Jay Shetty?

  I love that. Ever on the book is called Make Change That Lasts. Nine Simple Ways to Break Free From The Habits That Hold You Back. Go and grab your copy right now. And Rangan, thank you so much for always coming with so much energy, enthusiasm, and counterintuitive thinking, which I think is gonna benefit a lot of people and start their new year just right. So thank you so much, my friend. It's great to have you here.

• 1:14:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  Jay, thanks for having me back on your show. I appreciate it.

• 1:14:39Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain.

• 1:14:48Speaker 07

  If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain. You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murders, and their brains are very damaged.

• 1:15:05Speaker 04

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:15:08Speaker 05

  On October 2nd.

• 1:15:09Speaker 04

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:15:14Speaker 05

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:15:21Speaker 06

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death. That's what.

• 1:15:26Speaker 05

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:15:29Speaker 06

  I'm not the first nanny.

• 1:15:30Speaker 05

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.