3 Signs You Could Be Dealing With Depression & How to Stop Self-Sabotage

To see my Top 3 Reasons why you should try online therapy visit betterhelp.com/jaystop3 You deserve to invest in yourself, and BetterHelp is a great way to do that. Go to betterhelp.com/jaystop3 and to get 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up. For this special series, in partnership with Betterhelp, Jay Shetty sits down with Haesue Jo, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist & Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp and Ashley Carr. Ashley talks about her journey throughout therapy and how it has helped her become a better person that she is now. What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 04:12 How Ashley got into therapy and stigma around it 07:37 Therapy is not just for the weak-minded 08:58 Waking up everyday and feeling that you’re not enough 10:39 Skills she learned in therapy 14:07 Self-sabotage in return for love 15:44 How we’re acting in the present stems from our childhood experiences 17:14 Learning and understanding that we don’t need to accept the bad things that happens in our lives 19:33 What her life would be like if she didn’t go to therapy 21:05 Self-awareness is the first step 24:09 Accepting yourself 25:36 When did therapy become a choice 27:04 Every question during therapy has intention 29:33 Sometimes advice from our family or friends might not be the one we need 36:06 Advice to others on why they should try therapy 40:08 Depression symptoms 41:36 How parents can handle their kid’s emotions 46:49 Therapy is life-changing See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet,

• 0:44Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and is clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a second-hand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe.

• 1:28Jay Shetty?

  Listing items is a quick and simple process and once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part? There are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees, so you keep every dollar you earn. This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised to yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing,

• 2:13Jay Shetty?

  it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro

• 2:55Jay Shetty?

  at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode discusses serious matters including suicide, childhood trauma, substance use, and depression.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Every single morning, the first thing I would do is cry just because being awake was that difficult. I feel like a ticking time bomb. It was just a matter of when, really.

• 3:29Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, I am so grateful for this amazing community that we have, for each and every one of you that lend me your ears twice a week. And as you know, I'm always, always thinking about new ways in which we can serve and support our community and your journeys towards a better understanding of yourself and a better understanding of your friends, your family members, and the people around you, and the world around us as well. Now, this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy.

• 4:14Jay Shetty?

  And today, I'm joined with Hesu Jo, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp. And in this new monthly series, we will be serving real listeners of the show and community. You'll hear the stories, the things that they struggle with, and get to sit in on a real therapy session with the intention of letting you know you're not alone. We're all dealing with something. And in every show, we will address different themes, different experiences. And our goal is to bring more awareness to taking care of your mental health and provide everyone the tools, resources,

• 4:57Jay Shetty?

  and encouragement they need to heal their past for a brighter future. Now, when we were thinking about this idea, one of the things I realized is that today we hear a lot about therapy. People say, "Oh, my therapist said this to me," or "I learned this in therapy." But rarely have we actually sat in on a therapy session. We don't know what it looks like. And often, our family members don't know what it looks like. I'm hoping that this is going to be a resource that you can share with your friends, your family, so that they can understand therapy better, so that you can understand therapy better. And as a community, we can heal together as well. Today, Hesu and I are joined

• 5:41Jay Shetty?

  by a very wonderful and special individual named Ashley. And Ashley's joined us today to share her journey, to share her story. And I want you to welcome her and give her the deepest, warmest, most beautiful welcome from our On Purpose community, because she so kindly agreed to be a part of this today. So, Hesu and Ashley, so grateful to have you here. I'm really, really thankful to do this with both of you. And this is the first time we're doing this. It's historic and it's special, but thank you for being here.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you for having me.

• 6:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, thank you for including both of us, yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  It's exciting.

• 6:20Jay Shetty?

  It is, it is exciting. And, you know, we were talking a bit beforehand, and...

• 6:27Jay Shetty?

  We really wanna honor you, Ashley, and make sure that we serve you in an effective way. And so I'm gonna now hand over to Hesu, who's going to start this wonderful conversation and discussion. So, Hesu, over to you.

• 6:43Haesue Jo?

  I mean, just continuing a little bit of something Jay was mentioning, I wanna make sure that you feel safe, that you feel comfortable. So if there's ever a moment that the conversation is going somewhere that doesn't feel right for you, you can indicate that in whatever way that you need to. But thank you, thank you so much for being willing and open to talk about yourself for so many people, because I think part of de-stigmatizing the idea of seeking support is seeing other people do that, right? Seeing other real people doing that versus just hearing commercial after ad about doing this or trying this new thing. So my understanding is that you've already been in therapy for some time. And I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what initially got you to try it the first time?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  So initially, I was so against therapy. I didn't want nothing to do with it. Like, I thought I was a lost cause. I was like, no one can help me. Like, no one can imagine what I'm going through or even trying to tell me what I can do to get better, because in my mind, nothing could help me. 2018, I believe. I overdosed on like sleepy meds. And I was, after that, I was kind of actually forced into it. I didn't have a choice. And that kind of started my therapy journey. And from there, I was in therapy for two years.

• 8:04Haesue Jo?

  Something going on in your life led to some unsafe behaviors, like ways to cope. Like, people often turn to substance when there is trauma, because it helps numb stuff, it helps you not think about things. And sometimes you feel good, right? It makes you feel not just better from this thing that has been painful, but it feels good. And so I'm hearing that you had kind of like a mandated route into therapy. You mentioned that you wouldn't have considered it. So what were some of your ideas about what therapy was before?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  I didn't even know where to even begin, what therapy looks like. I just thought someone would just sit there and tell me. Oh, how do you feel about that? Hmm. Oh, how do you feel about that? You know what I mean? That's kind of like what I thought, or like, someone tried to preach to me, or like, tell me what to do, or how I should do it. But really, it wasn't like that at all for me.

• 8:57Haesue Jo?

  It ended up being something different.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, exactly.

• 9:00Haesue Jo?

  And I know you can't like, give an entire synopsis of the therapeutic journey that you've been through. But now that you have gone through some of these sessions, and it sounds like you found out it wasn't just, so how did that make you feel? And I'm sure your therapist did ask many times, well, how did that make you feel? What do you think of therapy now then? What is therapy if somebody is to ask you, a seasoned client, like, what to expect if they were to try this out?

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Therapy is amazing. Honestly, I recommend it to everybody. They tell me the problems, like, you know what you need? A therapist. And like, I don't even mean that in like a negative, it's not a negative thing at all. It's very positive, and I try to enlighten that. But for me, when I was in therapy, like, okay, so you have these dark thoughts. And when you don't recognize them, or you don't even know what they are, it can easily spiral out of control. And so with therapy, she really helps me recognize these thinking traps, is what we would call them. And throughout the day, I was more aware, like, if I would say, I'm worthless, or you can't do that, I would be like, wait a minute. Like, that's not true. Like, let's kind of lay it out and understand, like, what this is, or like, where it's coming from.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  That's something I still practice until this day, every single day. Catch myself thinking something negative. And obviously, there's more to it, but something I really took away from that.

• 10:19Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, you're describing cognitive behavioral therapy.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  That's exactly, that's exactly what it is.

• 10:23Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, you went through this process where somebody helped you learn to identify and then articulate your internal process. Because when you can start talking about it, or even understanding it a little bit better, I think that's when you really are able to make strides in terms of finding healing for yourself, the ability to let the things go that you need to, the ability to move on. So you shared a little bit about what led to your first session, right? Somebody, you were forced because you became unsafe to yourself.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:52Haesue Jo?

  Can you share now what you think led to the types of feelings you were trying to numb with substances?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Well, I think it was just like a let up. Um, there wasn't like a particular event, well, something did trigger it and I can talk about that. But overall, like I've been struggling with it for, since I was a young child. I think it was like really just like a matter of time. And I think if I like received help sooner, it wouldn't have gotten to that point. And for like a lot of people like me, unfortunately, something that drastic has to happen for us to even want to accept help.

• 11:32Haesue Jo?

  Yeah. The rock bottom experience, right? Like people, not just people, not people, I should say, we, we often feel like there's some kind of like shortcoming or something wrong with me if I need to reach out for support. Because a lot of us have this misconception that therapy is for the weak minded.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:50Haesue Jo?

  The people that are absent of some kind of strong will of their own. And it takes a lot of courage, I think, to finally realize, like vulnerability takes a lot of strength. Being able to open up to someone, being able to open up to yourself and admit a lot of stuff.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  That's the hardest part.

• 12:04Haesue Jo?

  Yeah. And so you mentioned like, your life led to that moment, I'm sure, series events. And then you also said something about something did trigger this. So that's something that you're willing to kind of open up about now?

• 12:17Speaker 01

  I think at that time, it was, my depression really had a hold on me. Every single morning, I would, the first thing I would do is cry, just because being awake was that difficult. I couldn't even, I didn't even want to spend the day with myself mentally. That was going on for a couple of months. And I feel like no matter what I did, like one day I would wake up, I feel like I would do a good job, but I feel like it was still not enough. I'm like, wow, I really gave it my all and it still was not enough. I was like, what is the point of being here? One day, my ex boyfriend and I got in a, an argument. And I was like, wow, I will.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I'm just, again, I'll never be enough, I'll never be worthy. And normally, in those situations, I will contemplate. I'll have a conversation with myself, like, okay, Ashley, you know, one more day, one more day, like, just hold on, hold on. But that day, there was no conversation with myself. A switch just flipped and I just went through with it and I was like, worst case scenario, I go to sleep. And I wake up like, okay, but like, best case scenario for me, I go to sleep and I don't even know what happened. That's what I was hoping for, but it exactly go as plans, which is probably the best. I feel like a, like a ticking time bomb. It was just a matter of when, really.

• 13:34Haesue Jo?

  You're describing just like, living for such a long time without knowing how to regulate your emotions and really process a lot of stuff, right? And it like blew up in an argument, it sounds like. I want to shift gears a little bit and kind of ask a little bit more about your previous therapy experiences so far. So while you've been in therapy, I'm hearing you say that you've learned some skills. You've learned some things to like cope with and navigate everyday life. Like, how did you learn that stuff? Like, what is it that the therapist was doing to teach these things, right?

• 14:07Speaker 01

  So I'm a huge imagery person. And like, one thing we would do, it was, it was kind of like, how I describe it, like a court case. Okay, like you have your like, the jury, you have like the lawyers, stuff like that. One thing I struggled with was feeling like I'm not capable of taking care of myself. Like, I'm a grown adult, I should be able to take care of myself. And I, I couldn't. And so we would break down the evidence, like, okay, what's real and like, what's false? Like, let's just recognize that there. Because when you're at this kind of mindset, you tell yourself so many lies, stuff that's not even true. And so I would, I'm like, okay, well, I, I do this, I do my laundry sometimes. Like, I have been working out past couple of weeks.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Like, oh, you do feed yourself, you have to give yourself credit for the things that you actually do. And you, I would, we would write it down in the evidence section. And we would write down like, what was false. And basically, like, the jury would come to the conclusion, like, no, you are capable. So yeah, you would just really just have to, in that process, give yourself credit and kind of look at what was real and what wasn't. And you would shift those thoughts of, I should be able to. And you'd change it into, no, you are able to and you, and you do.

• 15:26Haesue Jo?

  It's a lot of just shifting the way you think about stuff, taking on different perspectives, hearing someone kind of reword or like paraphrase your life in a different way. It sounds like you've learned a lot about yourself, too. There's like a period of time where it sounds like you didn't really know who you were.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 15:43Haesue Jo?

  Like, what parts of learning these skills, learning how to identify evidence for and against some kind of thought or belief, helped you figure out who you are? Like, do you feel like there was some kind of self-exploration, self-identification type of process? Like, it's not just learning skills, right? It's, I guess I'm trying to get to your sense of any kind of change in the ways that you perceive yourself. Like, how has that kind of shifted in that two-year period?

• 16:13Speaker 01

  So, a lot of people, I believe, feel like they go to therapy and overnight, they're so much better. And that's just not the case. And for me, again, like until this day, it's something I had to practice every single day. So, there wasn't like one particular moment where I just like saw myself in like a better light. Eventually, you keep practicing and practicing and practicing. And eventually, you start to learn yourself. You start to value yourself and you see yourself in a whole different light. You have, you learn boundaries and you have them now. And you have rules for yourself. And you don't allow certain people or certain situations control you as much because you have more confidence in the tools

• 16:58Speaker 01

  and the coping mechanisms that you have developed throughout therapy. And that's definitely, it helped me a lot. And like, until this day, I really do see myself in a higher light. And I don't let people take advantage of me as much as I used to back in the day.

• 17:14Haesue Jo?

  Back in the day, people took advantage of you? In what ways do you think that was happening that you're able to prevent now?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Well, just one example. You were mentioning earlier, people, they, the kind of self-sabotage, whether it's drugs, alcohol. For me, I didn't do any of that. For me, my reckless behavior was being promiscuous. And that's kind of like what I learned growing up was giving yourself for, in return for love.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  So that's what I thought I had to do in order to receive any sort of love. And so I would give myself to guys, you know, and like thinking, oh, this is how they're going to accept me. This is like where they're going to love me. This is where I'm valued. And now it's it's not like that at all. I'm just like, no, I have so much more to give than my body. You know what I mean? And so that's just one example of how things have definitely shifted.

• 18:14Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Orange Theory Fitness. One of the best investments you can make is in your own strength. The choices you make today can help shape how you feel for years to come. Orange Theory Fitness provides a one hour workout to build strength, burn fat and build muscle with an expert coach guiding you every step of the way. Head to orangetheory.com/onpurpose to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage in studio for details. This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in.

• 18:55Jay Shetty?

  Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with wifi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast. Choose a cellar or northeast regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. The best habits are the ones we hardly notice, the ones that quietly shape the way we move through life, giving us the confidence to focus on what really matters. That's Mazda's approach to safety. Every Mazda is designed with proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected and more engaged with your drive, so you can stay present behind the wheel.

• 19:38Jay Shetty?

  That commitment has earned Mazda recognition as Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. And as of July 2026, Mazda has won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus awards than any other car brand. Visit www.iihs.org to learn more. A lot can happen when an accident doesn't. Mazda, more of what matters to you. Visit mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  For me.

• 20:08Haesue Jo?

  You're speaking of something huge here, right? Is like, we as people, we learn how to not only give love, but how to receive love from very significant people really early in our lives, childhood. And those people that are supposed to love us unconditionally, keep us safe, nurture us, show us that the world is a safe place, have a lot of power over us as young children. And so what I'm hearing is when you were a young child, some kind of event or series of events taught you that love means something, you know, specific, right? So I'm curious, in your therapy experience, how much did you go back and talk about your childhood in that time?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  When I went to therapy, we did go, well, you kind of have to understand why you feel this way. And it does stem from your childhood, everything. So we, we really did start from there. We broke it down from there. It really does help. You, you start to realize what, how you're acting in the presence is, it stems from that.

• 21:17Haesue Jo?

  We reenact, we try to correct what happened to us as kids in our adult relationships. And I think we all try to the best of our ability to try to correct something that happened to us when we were six. We didn't, we didn't know any better, you know?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:32Haesue Jo?

  Trying to make this six-year-old, you know, be smarter. You should have known better, which we tell ourselves all the time. It sounds like you learned to have compassion for the small child inside of you.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%, like even to this day. Like, I'm 27 years old and I still, to this day, I still feel like that little girl. Like, I feel like it's my duty to protect myself and be that person little Ashley needed when she was younger. You really do feel like it's your fault, like, or you should have done this differently, or you should have done that. You blame yourself and you're ashamed of it. But really, it's not in your control and the people in your lives should have been the ones protecting you.

• 22:11Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, shame, shame is a very powerful thing, right? It's like, there's like a difference between when we feel guilty for doing something bad. We recognize that this thing, we probably could have made a different choice. But shame is like adding some... Really painful and uncomfortable stuff on top of that. I did this bad thing because I'm a bad person. Or this bad thing happened to me and I deserved it because I'm a bad person. Like in therapy, do you feel like you can remember some kind of shift in that sense of shame? Like something that released you from feeling like, all this stuff happened to me because I'm bad? What about this process? What about talking about yourself and your life helped you start to shift this idea away from being a bad person?

• 22:55Haesue Jo?

  Because I'm hearing you say that you are a good person. When did that change? Like, how does that change?

• 23:01Speaker 01

  There's not one moment where it just shifts. It truly is, it happens over time. And within my time of therapy, the two years, of course, I, relationships, jobs, real life situations are happening. And when I'm acting on them and I feel like, oh, this is happening to me. I deserve it anyways. I'm a piece of crap. You know what I mean? Like, and so you would accept that for yourself. But over time, you realize like, wait a minute, like, I don't deserve that at all. It shouldn't be happening to me. You shouldn't accept that. And once you create those boundaries for yourself and practice it, it does get better.

• 23:36Haesue Jo?

  You know, a lot of people wonder, like, why do we go to therapy every week? What is it about this cadence of whatever? And it's like, why don't we go every day if I'm trying to solve this huge problem that's been part of my life for such a long time? And really, your life, your healing is what happens outside of therapy. It's just one hour a week, most of the time. It's like, you can't expect this one hour of week, talking to someone on the couch or whatever, to fix everything. It's talking about some stuff, learning some things, identifying feelings and behaviors that you could try to start working on in a different way. And it's in your real life, outside of the session, that this transformation is really happening. For some people, very gradually and over a long period of time. You mentioned you're 27.

• 24:18Haesue Jo?

  That's like, you know, potentially 25 years of learning how to be in a particular space in a body. And it's going to take time to like, unlearn, relearn, and start seeing the world in a way that is safe, right? So what would you say, like, if you had not gone to therapy?

• 24:38Haesue Jo?

  You know, where would we be? Where would you be?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. Like, if I never went to therapy, I would not be the person that I am today, nor be the person that I'm becoming. My self-awareness has grown so much, and I'm able to take care of myself more mentally. I'm able to value my thoughts more, or just like, again, if I'm negative, I recognize it real quick, and I try to change it into something more enlightening and more actually true. Go from false to true.

• 25:12Haesue Jo?

  You know, people come to therapy and over time, after what's called the assessment period, where your therapist is getting to know you and asking you about your family history and like all your school stuff and everything you remember from your family childhoods, whatever. Once you move past this initial period where you're building this relationship, you start thinking about goals. What are the goals that I want to work on? And so you and your therapist like agree on these usually two or three major things that you want to achieve through this process. And usually you're looking for something called SMART goals. People talk about this all the time. You want to be specific, measurable. What's not always explicitly stated as a goal is increased self-awareness,

• 25:57Haesue Jo?

  but I think that's always going to be an outcome. At least I think most therapists are hoping that that's an outcome for their clients. So I'm really glad that you were able to even identify that that's something that's shifted for you is self-awareness.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yes. Honestly, without my self-awareness, I think I would be so lost because I do believe self-awareness is the first step. You have to even recognize what you're doing or how you're behaving or what you're thinking about yourself. That's where it's starting, like from recognizing it. So if you don't recognize it, you really can't move forward or even try to get better. You were talking about the assessments, right? And so maybe like every six months, we would review. And when I was feeling better, you know, I'm doing better, we're reviewing from six months ago. And it was so sad. I was, I was, my heart was breaking for six months ago, Ashley. And she was saying, she was saying, I'm referring to her as another. Honestly, that's how I feel. Like, I feel like a new person, like honestly.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  But she was just referring to her like a self like unworthy, I'll never get better. It's like, it was very, very dark thoughts.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  And I was so sad for, I'm like, oh my God, I'm like, that was me. Are you sure you're on the right assessment? And like, how I said these things? And yeah, it's true. It was just like, it was a transformation. And to reflect back on all of those and like, how I was feeling where I am today. It was a good feeling because I wasn't feeling that way any longer.

• 27:23Haesue Jo?

  Yeah. What you said is like, exciting to me because you're describing this very powerful component of not just therapy, but just like tracking, tracking your thoughts, tracking your moods, your behaviors. This is like, why a lot of people choose to journal. They like to look back and see how far they've come. Like, if you never wrote down or put somewhere where you could remember where you were, it's very, very hard to identify how much better you've become, how much better you're feeling. So in therapy, it's a really like, specific, intentional place to be able to have someone else doing that with you, tracking stuff, bringing your attention back to like, remember what you said last time? Because that doesn't really fit with what you're saying today. I'm hearing that you had a great therapist, really. It's like, somebody that

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Oh, she was great.

• 28:09Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, is with you in this moment, but also taking you back to relevant moments in the past to make connections. This is what helps people gain better self-awareness. Because self-aware people think about themselves in every chapter and season of their lives, try to relate the past to the present, and how that's going to affect their future. And really, somebody that's not self-aware, it's going to be really hard for them to practice empathy, the ability to feel for another. So, can you say anything about like, your experience with empathy and whether you've noticed like, a shift with that, with your improved self-awareness?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was considered myself an empathetic person, even before then. But there would be times where I'd feel like a robot, like, almost incapable of feeling sorry for somebody. I, like, just... I feel bad because I'm like, I feel like I should feel something towards them, but I don't. And I really do. I think that helped me later on down the line to be more empathetic, 100%.

• 29:10Haesue Jo?

  That's like a big life thing. It's like, I think we're all hardwired to connect, to want to be with other people, to have intimacy with folks that are important to us. And how can you do that if you don't even know who you are?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%. When you're really not sure of who you are, I mean, I don't know who I am. I'm still growing, you know? But at that time, when you, it's kind of like, I would describe myself as a loose cannon. You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't process any type of emotions or receive love. Like, I didn't know what that looked like. I didn't know how to accept it, nor like, return it. It really affected how I dealt with relationships, friendships, careers, just because I didn't even know how certain emotions or certain situations would look like. I didn't know what was normal.

• 29:59Haesue Jo?

  We have these wounds inside, right, that I think a lot of us want to heal. We attempt to heal them in so many different ways, whether it's substance that helps numb these wounds a little bit, or regular sexual behaviors where we're trying to connect, where we're chasing intimacy, but it's still a little bit different. Or, you know, burying ourselves in work, like, all this stuff that we're trying to do to feel normal, like you say. What I'm hearing is like a larger acceptance of just you as you are, that you don't have to perform, that you don't have to be like a specific model of someone in order to be worthy of anything. You really accomplished a lot.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 30:37Haesue Jo?

  What would you say were your initial goals? I mean, you know, past the point of like being forced into therapy, when did it become a choice to you?

• 30:45Speaker 01

  There'll be times where I would look forward to therapy, and things would happen throughout the week. And I go to therapy, I used to go to therapy once a week. I would leave the house and I would just be like, my therapist is gonna get an earful today. Like, I couldn't wait to share what I was going through with my therapist. Like, someone who understands, wasn't judging me, someone who can break it down for me. And that was really refreshing because I didn't, I still don't really have that support system, family-wise. So having that one person in my life that I can trust and turn to, it was amazing.

• 31:20Haesue Jo?

  Somebody that's...

• 31:22Haesue Jo?

  Listening to you, to respond to you about you. You mentioned like, I don't have this in my family. And like, even people with very loving, very caring, very well-meaning families, still don't really always have that with family. Because those good intentions also come with their own baggage, and their own feelings, and their own agendas of what they want between them and you. To somebody to break it down, just hear you out, help you, help mirror stuff, right? Like therapists say, like, we're just here to hold up a mirror, right, to help you see, see yourself a little bit better. Because we all go through trauma that, that makes it very difficult for us to like, see past all this stuff that we build up to protect ourselves from future traumas.

• 32:04Haesue Jo?

  In therapy, the therapist asks you a lot of questions. What's your sense of like, what these questions are for? Why do we ask so many questions? Or why do you think that we ask so many questions?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  In the beginning, obviously, I'm just like, nosy.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Like, okay, like, what else? Like, geez, my social security too?

• 32:26Speaker 01

  But really, it's, it's come to find out, like, again, holding the mirror up, it's really reflection on like, who you are as a person? How'd you become this person? Why are you acting this way? So every question, there is really intention behind it. It's not just some aimless question, like, trying to be nosy, you know? Like, they're not judging you. So I feel like every single question for my therapist, you know, there was, she was just looking out for me and wanted to help me become more aware of why I was behaving a certain way, or acting, or thinking a certain way.

• 32:58Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, all the questions, intention. I, I like that you used that because, you know, sometimes therapists who are just people, are just people. Sometimes those curious questions, or how you would say nosy, they do pop up here and there.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:12Haesue Jo?

  But it is like a therapist's kind of duty to refrain from doing that. Like, you might be talking about something from your life, and then you mention like, a restaurant that I've been to. And my initial reaction of wanting to talk about and make this connection, like, oh, I've been there, and I got this item from the menu. Like, those things, we, we often refrain from that because in therapy, it is about you. Of course, it's going to somewhat be about me because I'm a human, and we're connecting as two people. And my experiences, beliefs, and values are going to be present in this room. But it's very important for therapists not to impose those things, right? Or like make you have particular goals or try to get you to think the way that I do.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Very unbiased, very nonjudgmental. It was very neutral. Like you said, she didn't try to impose her opinions or thoughts

• 34:08Speaker 01

  to a certain extent with the thoughts, but opinions. She, she never really did that.

• 34:13Haesue Jo?

  Right, right. Opinion stuff, we're like, we're taught and trained to like, leave that stuff outside the door. Go to your own therapy. So you're really sure of what your stances on a bunch of stuff are so that you don't have to come into a session and argue with clients about it.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:28Haesue Jo?

  Especially in like, you know, heated climates like we have in current, modern society.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  I can't even imagine going to a therapy session and she's telling me, no, you're wrong. I'm just like, we're having like this debate, you know what I mean? It's not like that at all.

• 34:42Haesue Jo?

  I'm very glad you had that because a personal experience, which I think a lot of people can relate to is we turn to sometimes a best friend, an, you know, older family member, maybe our mom. We turn to these people with the expectation that they will be there for us without judgment, that they'll respond to us in a way that's loving and caring and nurturing. And a lot of times those responses are loving, caring, nurturing, but they're also filled with the judgment, the criticisms of you could have done it this way. It probably would have been better if you thought about it this way. So family, very well meaning, but also emotionally charged, also like entangled into your life.

• 35:24Haesue Jo?

  And they have their own like motivations, things that they're trying to accomplish to propel this relationship in whatever direction.

• 35:35Jay Shetty?

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• 36:18Jay Shetty?

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• 37:01Jay Shetty?

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• 37:34Speaker 01

  When you're in such a vulnerable state and you don't know what's going on, and even though maybe a family member has the great intentions, and they're basically putting their thoughts and opinions onto you, you're in a really vulnerable state and you might take their advice and it's just... Totally wrong and totally not the right direction to go. So even though family members are supportive, therapy is definitely highly recommended from my end.

• 38:02Haesue Jo?

  Makes me wonder like what, what big differences? You've shared some already, but some other differences that you can think of between going to like a really close friend for support versus talking to a therapist?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  So even just when I was a teenager, I turned to my best friends and it's not her fault because she's, she's not like this. She's just a kid too. And I'm like, hey, I think I'm really depressed. And she's like, you're not depressed, you're just sad. He was like, okay. And then my ex-boyfriend from around that time, I would try to express my thoughts and my concerns. And he thought I was looking for attention and make little like snickers with his friends like, oh my God, this girl's crazy. You know what I mean? Like psycho. And at this point, you're like, you don't even understand it yourself. She's like, oh, I am psycho. I'm real crazy. Like, I'm gonna show you crazy. Like you act on that, you know, because that's what you believe you are. And my mom,

• 39:00Speaker 01

  that's a different story, you know? I tried telling her, I'm like, I'm so angry. I feel this way. I'm like, I don't understand why. Like, I think I need help. And I didn't know what was wrong with me or why I'm this way. I just knew it wasn't normal. And she doesn't even lack, or she doesn't even have the depth to understand such a concept. And so maybe she cared for me, but she wasn't the ideal person to try to go for help. And so those were my three closest people in my life. Again, it's not my ex-boyfriend's fault or my best friend's fault. They, they don't know any better.

• 39:35Haesue Jo?

  Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  But as a parental figure, I definitely needed more guidance and more direction. And a lot of people don't have that. And I think that's another thing that started, like steered me away from wanting to receive any more help. Just because of those kinds of experiences. I'm like, wow, um, no one understands and no one's gonna want to help me.

• 39:56Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, I mean, this is what happens when I open up is I'm met with like rejection or someone withdrawing or someone shutting down or someone telling me I'm wrong, invalidating my experience, saying that I'm not really feeling the thing that I think I'm feeling.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  You feel like you shouldn't be feeling this way. Like you don't have a right to, or like you're just looking for attention or. People have it worse, you know, like, why do you feel that way? You have no right to feel that way. So that really does affect you.

• 40:26Haesue Jo?

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  How you portray people.

• 40:31Haesue Jo?

  There are people out there that have it much worse than you. I think that is like someone's attempt to help you feel better because they're like trying to minimize the issue that you're bringing to them. Or even your friend, like, you're not depressed, you're just sad. I can see that being a 16-year-old's solid attempt

• 40:49Haesue Jo?

  at making the situation less scary, but not just for you, but less scary for her.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:54Haesue Jo?

  Same thing with your ex-boyfriend, like, making a joke of this thing that you're bringing up that's actually really uncomfortable for you. A lot of people respond that way because they don't know how else to handle it. They can't hold space for it because they're not really sure what to do. And they start feeling heightened. They start feeling emotional themselves. And then their own defense mechanisms start coming out. And some people use humor, which can be very harmful to like the people around them. Yeah, and then, you know, with mom, it's a lot of moms. They really mean well, but they are also people. And a lot of moms have, I mean, plenty of moms have been to therapy, but I think a lot of them haven't. And this thing that you mentioned of like, maybe she doesn't have the depth, it's probably she doesn't have the training, she doesn't have the understanding to help you feel safe

• 41:39Haesue Jo?

  in the feelings that you're having. And also, you know, our parents' first instinct is like, oh, my God, my child is hurt. I have to make them feel better. Versus, my child is hurt, we're gonna hold space for that and let them know it's okay to be hurt. Right? And that's like a big difference between parents and a therapist. A therapist is not gonna try to immediately put a Band-Aid on it, but it's like, let's like really get in there.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Let's take the Band-Aid off. Let's see what's, how bad is this wound? Like, what happened to it? Like, how'd you even get the wound? You know what I mean?

• 42:08Haesue Jo?

  Oh, the wound, bring it back. I think I forgot to close that loop, you know? We have wounds inside and we do all these things trying to heal them. Ultimately, if you don't heal that stuff, it will end up like bleeding out on other people.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Other people, yes.

• 42:21Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's the gory scene. Yeah, the gory scene of like our emotional blood and baggage just like following us around everywhere and it's contagious, you know? It's like any feeling is contagious when you're with other people and when you're not well, other people feel that, right?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I imagine a cloud over me. It's just raining, you know, have my boyfriend here, he's getting rained on and it's poured. And I feel like it was almost my fault, like I brought this into your life, like you didn't deserve this. I'm just, I really felt like I was bringing people down with me and they didn't need that. And that was another thing that led to why I did what I did. Everyone, everyone would be better off without me. So if you don't address the help, blood's everywhere, you know?

• 43:08Haesue Jo?

  I think we're, we're touching on so many stuff that's very relatable to a lot of people. And I'm hearing you sing praises of how therapy's been helpful. Like what would you say to someone that's like maybe in a similar headspace to where you were before of thinking like, it's just not going to help? Anytime I've tried to open up to somebody, it led to something worse for me. Any pieces of advice to give to someone that's still very skeptical, resistant, fearful of trying this thing?

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Number one, I would say, do not tell them how you think they should feel. So if you try to tell someone like, they're going to automatically tune you out, like you're automatically disqualified, like in that, like who are you to tell me? Cause like, so just listen to them, like listen to what they have to say. And I wouldn't, again, put your opinions or your personal thoughts on it. For me personally, because I have been through it, I would just be there with them and this is so powerful to me. Rather than, oh, you should do this. I would say, we should go to therapy, like let me help you find somebody. Because I didn't have that support.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  I didn't have someone who's going to hold my hand and help me find the help. So for me, I would, I would just hold their hand and. Try to find somewhere to get them healthy, they feel comfortable.

• 44:30Haesue Jo?

  And you're like, feeling like emotional because that's what you're doing here, right? You're like figuratively holding the hands now of so many people by sharing your experience and being so open about all this stuff that you've been through and like rehashing a lot of your own thought process from the past that weren't very healthy. Sometimes people just need permission. I don't know if that's like from themselves or from other people to do something good and do something nice for themselves, nice for me. And while your, your journey to therapy wasn't quite like, I'm gonna do this for me today. You know, at some point you were choosing to keep going back.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:08Haesue Jo?

  Yeah. And would you ever do it again? Would you ever go back to therapy?

• 45:11Speaker 01

  I, I already know I'm gonna go back to therapy, not because I'm depressed, but because I just need that extra helping hand, you know what I mean? I, I definitely think I'll need therapy for the rest of my life. Not because there's something wrong with me or like I'm suicidal again or something like that, just because it really is helpful.

• 45:28Haesue Jo?

  What's helpful about it?

• 45:30Speaker 01

  It really helps you

• 45:34Speaker 01

  understand why you feel a certain way about a certain, certain situation. And I know as I get, get older, maybe marriage or kids, I'll have those conflicts of like, I'm letting my child down, I can't provide for them. And you know, that will probably stem from how I feel certain times today or how I can't provide for myself. And I know that probably will not be the case as I get older, but I'm sure therapy will help me understand that.

• 46:04Haesue Jo?

  So it's helpful for navigating life's everyday challenges, right? Like, we're all posed with a thousand decisions to make per day. And most of the time, we're making those decisions largely on our own. And that's the interesting thing about therapy. It's not that your therapist is making further decisions for you, but helping you identify what decisions like lie in there already. Like you already know the answers and the truth to what life is. We all know that for ourselves somewhere deep inside. And I think therapy really helps us like unlock this stuff that. We've pushed down, you know, things like not having confidence or not believing in ourselves to make the right choices or not feeling worthy, not feeling adequate.

• 46:46Haesue Jo?

  It really makes it hard to listen to ourselves and to hear those deep down truths that already exist.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you don't believe the truth at all. Like you could look in the mirror and be like, you're so ugly. Like obviously, like you're not ugly. You know what I mean? But all truths are out the window and like you don't even value your opinions.

• 47:05Haesue Jo?

  When you're dealing with like mental health issues. Yeah. So you mentioned you've experienced a depression, which does sometimes include feeling sad, but like what, how did depression manifest in your life? Like what made you feel like this is the word I'm going to use to describe how I'm feeling to other people? For somebody listening to this conversation, like that might be feeling depressed themselves, but they don't have the words to articulate that yet. Like what would you clue them into? Like, how do you know that you're depressed?

• 47:34Speaker 01

  For me, I was very, very angry. The moment I woke up, I just filled with so much rage. And it'd be to the point where I just want to cry. That's how like angry I was. And obviously you're being suicidal. I don't want to live. Like that's not normal. Like I just want to end my life. And you're sitting there, have a pros and cons list, trying to think out like, okay, like, why should I not do it? Like, that's not normal. And just constantly feeling worthless, like not feeling like you deserve to live. These I knew were not normal. I felt that way as a young child. It started with anger. That's why I can tell you is it started with anger.

• 48:18Haesue Jo?

  And that's insight because if you ask a therapist, how does depression manifest in youth, in small children? And anger is actually something that someone needs to assess for. Temper tantrums, this like really dysregulated way of being. If you're waking up really pissed off every day, that's not normal.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I definitely encourage parents, because I see it a lot. Like if a child does act out, all children act out. But if it's like a constant pattern and you're punishing them, I think that's like the worst. I'm like, no, take a, take a moment, listen to your child. Try to have a conversation and understand why are they feeling this way? And you'd you'd probably learn a lot about your child and realize punishing them, sending them to the room, making it worse essentially is not the way to go. But getting help, it's probably the parent needs help too. You know, it's a it's a partnership between the child and the parent.

• 49:15Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, some education around just emotions, how they how they creep up, like what they look like in kids. I mean, small kids especially, like their primary language is not English or whatever language it is where they're growing up. It's play. They they understand the world through how they play, how they engage in a very active way outside of just like verbal communication. So, yes, like paying attention to kids' mood. So you paying attention to your own mood and recognizing something's not normal.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and if I like my mom was more aware and more educated about something like that, I probably wouldn't have grew up the way I did in certain ways.

• 50:01Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, plenty of parents, they mean well. They really tried their best. It speaks to like the importance of education around emotional intelligence and maybe incorporating a little bit more into like standard curriculums at school, how to just like tune into your feelings, how your feelings affect your everyday life. I imagine many of us could have benefited if our moms were a little bit more aware about all this stuff.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't mean to laugh, but some people are really, they're really are clueless, I should say. And I really think it's very helpful to start with children or even teenagers. I think that's really where it begins because that's where you start to become programmed to be a certain way. And you're gonna move out of your parents' house and you're gonna live live your life, but yet you're still acting a certain way. And like you don't even realize it's coming from your childhood. Like you just think you're some like adult with an anger problem or you're just like super depressed and you don't even know why. And that will carry on with you if you don't recognize that you have you have a a mental health problem.

• 51:08Haesue Jo?

  And therapy helped you in in those ways of recognition and, you know, connecting the dots between what happens in childhood and how you're relating to other people now.

• 51:20Jay Shetty?

  Thank you, Ashley, for opening up so much and sharing about your journey.

• 51:26Jay Shetty?

  It's really, you know, just sitting and listening to you both have a discussion about the journey you've been on, also hearing you open up about your feelings as someone who's in the room observing.

• 51:41Jay Shetty?

  It's actually really quite remarkable when you get to just be patient and listen to someone reflect on their own emotions, because it encourages you to do the same for yourself. And so I know that, you know, to the hundreds of thousands of people, millions of people that will listen to this afterwards, I'm hoping that everyone who's listening and watching is also thinking about the questions that Hesu is asking, thinking about the ideas that you're mentioning and are gaining that self-awareness and that regulation of their emotions and the understanding of themselves. Because it's strange to sit in on a conversation, I think, most of the time we spend our time in conversations thinking, what am I going to say?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:25Jay Shetty?

  Like, oh, what should I say back to that person? And obviously, as we see with Hesu, what she's doing is she's trying not to project her own feelings so that she can truly listen to you. And then I've just been silent for the last nearly forty minutes, forty-five minutes. And that's actually a really powerful practice, true, because now you're not sitting there thinking, what should I say? Or how do I sound? Or, oh, I can relate or not relate or judging, but I can just observe. And so I think this has been a really powerful practice even for me to just sit and listen and sit and hear.

• 53:07Jay Shetty?

  I think it's just been a healthy conversation to have a discussion about, you know, the benefits you've seen and the growth you've seen. And I think that's a great starting point for this series and just understanding the benefits of therapy and someone who's, you know, committed to two years, two years, right?

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:25Jay Shetty?

  Someone who's committed to two years of therapy and the benefits they've seen. So I'm very happy with the fact that everyone who's been listening and watching has had the opportunity to sit in on a conversation with a therapist and see how, where some of the questioning can go. And also to sit with someone who has done therapy. Who is able to articulate and explain their experiences, you know, clearly.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:49Jay Shetty?

  And concisely.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  I know there's a lot of people who are like me. I don't have a family to turn to. Or at the time, many friends. I didn't have a huge support system. So I really, truly felt very, very alone. So to take those steps takes a lot of courage. And I hope people listening really take away, like, even though I am, I am alone, like, I don't have that support system. There's still hope for me, like, I'm still worthy. And I hope, I really, really, really, really hope that they do their research and really find someone they, they connect with. And I do not want them to just get discouraged if they get a therapist. And there's, they're not connecting. Cause not every therapist is gonna be for you.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  And I think it's very, very important to find the one that, that is for you. And I really just hope people who are listening really, really, really, really do receive the help that they need. Cause there's nothing wrong or negative about therapy whatsoever. It truly is life changing and I do not regret it at all. I know I'm gonna do it again. And I'm so grateful for my therapist. When we like, we were on the phone during the COVID times. And we were like saying our goodbyes. You know, she's like, I'm so proud of you, Ashley. Like, you really have come so far. And I, I just started crying. Cause she really was, almost got like that mother figure that I never really had.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  And like, someone who truly cared about me and wanted better for me.

• 55:23Haesue Jo?

  Yeah. You're describing so many like pinnacles of things that therapists learn about in grad school. Like, you know, psychologists love to label, label human behaviors with all kinds of words and stuff. But like, the therapist becoming like a mother figure to you, that's, that happens a lot, right? It's, it's what we call like a corrective emotional experience. This person that is validating of you, that can listen to you, nurture you, kind of show you what. Gentle love and acceptance looks like and feels like in a really controlled, safe setting. And it's not that like, you know, therapists are not set out to like, become your new family, but I think experiences that come through sessions can help someone

• 56:08Haesue Jo?

  recognize like, I can create my own family, whatever that means to me. Like, the stuff that I feel like is supposed to come from family, which is love, acceptance, support, I can provide that to myself and I can learn how to do that.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:22Haesue Jo?

  With this other person that can model for me, because unfortunately, my mom didn't, or you know, whatever it is.

• 56:27Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. Well, thank you both so much for helping us sit in on that conversation and to observe and learn and listen. And I'm just really grateful for both of your honesty and transparency and as you for guiding this conversation and, you know,

• 56:43Haesue Jo?

  Thank you.

• 56:44Jay Shetty?

  Asking really insightful, thoughtful questions to really extrapolate the learnings. And I hope everyone who's been listening and watching back at home, you felt you've got a bit more of an insight. And we're going to be doing a lot of these episodes where we dive into different themes, have different conversations, look at this from different angles. And I'd love to hear your feedback. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'd love to hear what you learned, what surprised you, maybe, maybe something you didn't expect, or maybe something that you felt reassured by. I genuinely love to hear from you. So make sure you share your feedback in the reviews on Instagram, on Twitter, wherever else you're active. Please do let us know, because I'm always looking out to see what is it that resonated with you? What is it that connected with you? And for those of

• 57:28Jay Shetty?

  you who don't know, this episode was brought to you by BetterHelp, which is helping millions of people by making professional therapy more affordable and accessible than ever. And I have shared my own top three reasons why I believe everyone can try therapy. And to check that out, you can visit betterhelp.com/jaystop3. And so that's better, H E L P dot com forward slash Jay's, J A Y S, that's my name, T O P three. And when you do that, everyone who does that will get 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up as well. So that's for our on purpose listeners. And so remember that you deserve to invest in yourself and BetterHelp is a great way to start to do that.

• 58:13Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much, Dan Su. Thank you to Ashley.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you.

• 58:16Jay Shetty?

  Thank you both for joining me today. Hei Su Zhou's input is intended to be general and informational in nature. In case you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, please note this episode is not intended to aid in any diagnosis of mental health struggles in listeners. If you're struggling, please find a qualified professional to assess and help you with your personal journey.

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  I'm not the first daddy.

• 59:58Speaker 06

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.