Rich Roll ON: Facing Burnout and Leaning Into What Makes You Unique

For Rich Roll, being uniquely “Rich” meant feeling out of place. This led him down a road of drug and alcohol abuse and into the rat-race of entertainment law. In his early thirties, Rich decided he needed to change. He quit his job, stopped using and even committed himself to a year of celibacy. He began to rediscover what it meant to be uniquely him. On this episode of On Purpose, Best Selling Author and Ultra-Athlete Rich Roll and Jay talk about navigating self destructive practices, gaining wisdom from those closest to you, and pursuing work and activities that make you feel the most uniquely you. Please reach out on Instagram and let me know what make you the most uniquely you with #UniquelyMe! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 2:16Jay Shetty?

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• 3:00Jay Shetty?

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• 3:11Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you. Thank you for coming back every single week to listen, to learn, and to grow. Now, I know that you're going to be excited for this one. I know this is someone that you've always wanted me to interview and sit down with. And this is also someone that I've been dying to meet, and we finally, finally, finally made it happen. I'm so grateful for today's guest. It is none other than Rich Roll. Now, Rich Roll was named one of the 25 fittest men in the world by Men's Fitness and the world's fittest vegan by Men's Health. Rich is a globally known ultra endurance athlete,

• 3:52Jay Shetty?

  wellness advocate, bestselling author, husband and father of four. At age 40, Rich walked away from a career in law, dropped weight, and reinvented himself as an ultra-distance endurance athlete, the first of two people to complete five Ironmans on five Hawaiian islands in under a week. It's crazy, literally insane. He is also the host of the wildly popular Rich Roll podcast, which I know you're big fans of, one of the top 100 podcasts in the world with over 70 million downloads. Today, I'm excited for him to share his inspirational story of addiction, redemption, and optimal health. Welcome to the show, Rich Roll.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  So good to be here. Thanks for having me, Jay. Yeah, it's nice to finally meet you. I feel like I know you. I've been following your stuff for a long time, so.

• 4:39Jay Shetty?

  I'm very grateful. The feeling is so mutual. And yeah, it's always good when you I that's that is why I do love social media. I love it for this, that when you meet someone, you feel like, I already know this person. We can dive straight into it. I gave you a big hug on the way in. I didn't even think twice about it.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Lots of mutual friends.

• 4:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  So I feel connected to you already.

• 4:57Jay Shetty?

  Amazing, man. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. How do you describe someone who has done five Ironmans? And on five Hawaiian islands, like, how do you describe that person?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. You're the host. That's your job. I never know how to how to articulate what it is that I do. People are, what do you do? And yes, I've done some athletic things, but you know, I'm a writer, I'm a podcast host, I'm a father. I do lots of different things and and I never really know how to answer that question or fully describe.

• 5:29Jay Shetty?

  I think that's all of us today. None of us know how to explain what we do. My mom has no idea how to explain what I do. My wife has no idea to explain what I do. And even I do. And they're like, yeah, what do you want your lower part to be? I'm like, I don't know.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  When are you gonna get a real job?

• 5:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. But tell me about, you just said that you're a father, you're a father of four. What's the best thing you enjoy doing with your kids? Like, what's been the last crazy thing that you've done with them?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Crazy thing? Well, we were in Australia for the month of December, so that was super fun. Spent time in Sydney and in Byron Bay. So I just like being out in nature with my kids. Just simply, you know, it's the simple things. It's not like, oh, here's the crazy thing that we did. It's the little moments. It's the, you know, conversation in the car on the way to dropping them off at school, or, you know, a walk with the dogs on the trails, like outside my home. I live in a pretty rural area outside Los Angeles. So those are the those are the things that I think are the most meaningful. And anybody who's a parent, I think, can probably connect with that.

• 6:26Jay Shetty?

  And any memorable conversations recently where they've given some words of wisdom to you or or made you had an awakening or anything like that?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Trust me, you know, my biggest teachers, you know, my 16 year old right now is is really handing it to me, you know, and I think I think that I've got my spiritual program dialed in and that I have, you know, transcended so many of my character defects. And they say, like, I'm a long time in recovery for alcoholism. And one of the kind of catchphrases is if you want to confront your character defects, get into a relationship. And I would Up that ante by saying, have a 16 year old daughter. And she will show you exactly where you're at. And I feel like God or the universe, or however you want to describe your higher power, kind of puts in your path, uh, these kinds of teachers who will, um, challenge you in ways that, uh, you didn't anticipate.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  My, my 16 year old daughter certainly does that. She knows how to press my buttons and, you know, we get into it daily and it's great for both of us, but it's hard, man. It's hard being a parent.

• 7:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, I have no, I have plans at some point to become a parent, but I can see and observe from other people's experiences, how hard it is. So I'm, I'm making sure that I'm as prepared as I can be from, from that point of view before I dive into it. So yeah, I will come to you for some, some, some advice and tips. Everyone's always telling me like, Jay, where are you going to write children's book? I'm like, I am never going to write a book on how to be a parent because it's, I, I don't, I don't see there being a formula. And when I speak to parents, they're always very open about the fact of just, it's a new learning curve every day.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  And every day, man, every day.

• 8:02Jay Shetty?

  It's awesome. And your wife is an incredible, uh, vegan chef and cook and author.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's, she's also somebody that, that kind of defies definition. She does lots of things. It's funny, she's written three plant-based cookbooks, Plant Power Way, Plant Power Way Italia. She wrote a book on how to make plant-based cheese called This, This Cheese Is Nuts. And the funny thing is that's how people know of her is this, this sort of vegan chef. And she's like, I'm not a vegan chef. That was just one thing that I did. Like she would consider herself much more an artist, a musician, a spiritual teacher. She has her own podcast, um, and, uh, her wisdom is profound. So I learn from her daily. She's very much my teacher as well.

• 8:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, I feel that way, but with my wife, like I, when I met my wife, a lot of, I'd been involved in meditation and spirituality for a lot longer in terms of time. And so a lot of people thought that she was not going to be spiritual enough to marry me. And it's like, the, the joke's on everyone because she's like so much faster, faster than me naturally and intentionally. And like, all of this is so natural and easy and organic for her. Whereas for me, it's always been a work. Like I've had to work for any growth I've had spiritually or internally. Whereas for her, she's kind of like, just got this natural energy.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  She's just born.

• 9:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's fun to be around that. And, and it sounds like your wife has the same.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so.

• 9:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, we're very, we're very lucky.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, we upgraded. It's good.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Lucky, but also sometimes you want to just relax. You know what I mean? And Julie will be like, is that really what you want to be doing right now? Like, she's always pushing me. And that's great. You know, I'm always growing because she's challenging me. Or she's sort of showing me where I need that growth, you know? And sometimes you don't want to always look at that. You want to just not be reminded that you still have growth that can be had. So that's like the challenging part of it. But, you know, of course, it's a gift, right? And I would not have accomplished any of the things that I've done without, you know, having that partnership.

• 10:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, what do you do to relax then?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I like going to the movies, you know?

• 10:12Jay Shetty?

  Okay, me too. What's your favorite movie you saw recently?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Favorite movie recently?

• 10:17Jay Shetty?

  Well, like a good one that was recent. I'm a big movie guy too, so more than TV shows.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  You know, I see everything. I can even find the good and the worst movies out there.

• 10:26Jay Shetty?

  Okay, okay, fine.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  But I loved Jojo Rabbit.

• 10:29Jay Shetty?

  Oh, I haven't seen that yet.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Taika Waititi is a brilliant director. I really enjoyed that.

• 10:37Jay Shetty?

  Let's go back now. Let's talk a bit about how you got here. And I know you've told this story before, but for me, it's fascinating. And I think for my audience, it will be fascinating to hear it. And please share any parts that you haven't shared before or get lost in it in your own way. But your relationship with drugs and alcohol took you away from your athleticism. When did you get introduced to it? And why was it so captivating or intoxicating that it took you away from something that is so natural to you?

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, I get the question all the time, like, why do you think you're an alcoholic? And you can kind of chase that answer to your, you know, for the rest of your life. And I'm not sure you can ever get a completely satisfactory answer. You know, I am an alcoholic because I am. I'm more interested in what the solution is to the problem than trying to figure out what caused it. But I would say that from a very young age, you know, I was somebody who was naturally pretty socially awkward and very introverted. I had difficulty making friends. And, you know, I was the kid on the playground who was picked last for kickball. Like, I was not, you know... I was really, I felt like I lacked that rulebook for life that everyone seemed to naturally

• 11:52Speaker 01

  have. And I was unaware that there was any other way of living, other than how I was living, until I discovered alcohol. And I think, you know, as I was growing up, I found my way into swimming, and that was the one thing that I could do, that I had some natural acumen for, and I kind of doubled down on that, and got better and better, and the better I got in swimming, the better I got in school. Like, I'd learned these tools and these skills about, you know, what happens when you apply yourself, and you're dedicated, and you see progress and results. So by the time I was a senior in high school, I was one of the, you know, better swimmers on the eastern seaboard, and I got in all the great colleges and all of that. Ended up going to Stanford, number one collegiate

• 12:35Speaker 01

  swimming program in the country, and obviously, an incredible academic institution. And that's really where I was introduced to alcohol for the first time. I'd gotten drunk a couple times prior to that, on recruiting trips, but that was where it really took hold of me. And, you know, I have very vivid, visceral memories of that feeling of being drunk for the first time, and having this sensation like I was being wrapped in a warm blanket. And the answer to every question I ever had was suddenly, you know, at my fingertips, and I felt comfortable in my own skin, and able to have a conversation, and just, you know, capable of kind of navigating life in a way that I felt like everyone else naturally knew how to do. And I thought, this is the solution that I've been looking

• 13:18Speaker 01

  for. And I think that that's a common sensibility that you find, you know, amongst alcoholics and drug addicts. And it works. You know, it brought me, it taught me social skills, and suddenly, I could go to parties, and talk to girls, and crack jokes, and all of that. But it works until it doesn't work, and it stops working. And then, it starts to denigrate your life. And it didn't take long before it started to undermine, you know, the goals and the ambitions that I had, because I was, you know, I was and still am a very ambitious person. But it really just eroded all of that. And, you know, it's a progressive disease, but over time, it took me to some really dark and desperate places.

• 13:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and that's why I think it is important to... Look at the cause, or at least why I find it important to look at the cause, because there are probably so many people listening right now or watching right now that are like, Rich, I'm not yet an alcoholic, or I'm not yet a drug addict, but I feel the same way as you felt as a kid. I feel socially awkward, I find it hard to make conversations, I struggle. So they're actually on the precipice of going in the direction you went in. So it's almost like when we can stop there, we can actually go, well, what's the issue there? Like, why is it that so many of us growing up feel picked last? Like you said, everyone had the rulebook, right? Like, it felt like everyone had the rulebook, but the funny thing is, no one did. But it felt like that to you, and that's how people who are listening and watching right now,

• 14:37Jay Shetty?

  they feel that I have the rulebook, or they feel you have the rulebook, or they feel their friends have the rulebook. How do we solve it even before that stage? What solutions have you come up with there of? What are other, better, healthier ways to open up, to feel confident, to feel comfortable talking to people?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Well, I think it then becomes about the language that you speak so well, right? It's an internal job. It's an internal journey that I think we all have to go on to figure out what makes us uniquely who we are. And, you know, those sort of natural discomforts that I think we all have on some level, whether they're a direct result of childhood trauma, or just improper parenting, or an unhealthy environment in which somebody, you know, was raised and grew up, all of these things contribute to that sense of insecurity, or, you know, a lack of connection. And I think the way forward, as opposed to trying to medicate through drugs and alcohol,

• 15:37Speaker 01

  or other things, social media, you know, shopping, whatever it is, anything outside of yourself to resolve or numb whatever emotional, you know, sort of discontentment that you're experiencing, is a futile errand, right? Like, the only sustainable, healthy way of addressing that is to find a way to get comfortable with who we are internally. And I think it begins with a practice of self-love, and a gratitude practice, meditation, mindfulness. There's so much mainstream acceptance and recognition of all of these tools that I feel were lacking when I was growing up. I mean, I'm older than you, and I didn't go on the, you know, amazing spiritual journey that you have gone on.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  But I think there is now...

• 16:25Speaker 01

  You know, kind of an amenability to that that didn't exist in the in the 70s, you know, when I was a kid, and I think that's great. So for anybody who's watching or listening, if you're feeling that level of discontent, or you're experiencing, you know, an inability to connect with other people, you know, be aware of when you're reaching outside of yourself to change that internal state. And instead, kind of direct that inward and go on that journey instead. And I think it will lead you to a, you know, a healthier destination over time.

• 16:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, really well said. And I think you're spot on because what I find is that it's also the narrative that children hear from their teachers, parents and media. So I remember if you're a kid that spends time alone, teachers or parents would be like, oh, he or she doesn't have a lot of friends.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:19Jay Shetty?

  Rather than the narrative. Yeah, exactly. Rather than the narrative of, oh, he or she's really comfortable being alone. Right. It's like the narrative of always negative. Or like, if you had a birthday party and only five kids showed up, it's like, oh, they're not very popular at school. When actually, most of us would say, we probably don't have more than five great friends.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think society has created a very narrow box or checklist. And we're all expected to kind of fall in line and meet that criteria. And the truth is, is that the human condition is much more varied. And we need to celebrate those differences rather than judge them against the parameters of what's socially acceptable and that limited scope. And I think that's what we've done traditionally. And that marginalizes most people, right? So it's about broadening the aperture and understanding that that we all have gifts and things that make us uniquely who we are. And to the extent that we can celebrate those differences or those unique qualities, I think that's also like a very healthy path forward.

• 18:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. What have been your self-love and gratitude practices? Because I know you mentioned both of them there, and they're very important pillars in your own life. What's a great self-love practice, like a daily thing people have done that's really hard to?

• 18:29Speaker 01

  I will preface my answer to this by saying that that self-love and gratitude. These are not my natural disposition. My natural disposition is self-loathing, insecurity, resentment, anger, like all of that, right? And, and of course, that's fertile ground for alcoholism. So I have to work very hard to keep those negative emotional tendencies at bay and, and to, and to cultivate, to bring gratitude and self-love into my life. So, you know, it begins with very simple cheesy practices like repeating the mantra, "I love myself." Or even more powerful, what would somebody who loves themself do in this situation? If I loved myself, what would I do in this situation?

• 19:12Jay Shetty?

  Oh, I like those, yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Always bringing yourself back to that. Do you know Kamal Ravikant?

• 19:16Jay Shetty?

  I don't know.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  So he's an amazing guy. You should have him on your show. But he just wrote a book called, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on It. And it's full of all of these kind of self-love practices, which are very simple, but I think very profound.

• 19:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Cultivating gratitude involves creating a gratitude list every single day, writing down the simple things that you're grateful for, and then expressing that gratitude through actions and your interconnections with other human beings on a daily basis.

• 19:43Jay Shetty?

  Tell me about an instance where you used, because you're right, like we see these everywhere, they're in articles, like you said, they're considered cheesy now, but we both know that they work. Tell me, tell me about a time when you used the first one, for example, that question of, "If I loved myself, how would I do this?" Tell me about an instance where you've seen that profoundly affect your life and with making a gratitude list, like, tell me about a time when you were in that self-loathing, totally degenerative kind of position, and then having a gratitude list, how that's made that switch?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's micro examples, like when you're choosing what food to eat, you know, are you going to choose the fast food thing or the healthy thing? Well, if you love yourself, you're going to choose it. So there's, there's plenty of things like that, but I think on a very macro level, like I've leveraged these practices to quite literally change my life. Like I, for many years, was a practicing corporate attorney, very unhappy in that profession, trying to jam this, you know, square peg into a round hole forever, until I had a bit of an existential crisis, kind of crash into a health scare that really forced me. Me to take stock of how I was living and make some changes. And I made a decision, a very conscious decision at this time.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  It was right around when I turned forty, that I was going to engage in activities that made me happy. Even if they made no sense, even if they weren't moving my life forward in a in a, in a, in a traditional career sensibility. And that meant like, I'm going to go to the pool in the middle of the day and go for a swim. Or I'm going to go trail running, or I'm going to ride my bike like and on a, at two o'clock on a Wednesday, when I'm supposed to be at work. And I didn't care what anyone thought of that. And I feel like that was very much, uh, it was very difficult for me to begin doing things like that. But that was how I was exercising or practicing self-love. Like, I'm just going to do this thing that makes me happy. It's very simple.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  It's a very primal activity and it doesn't have to mean anything. It doesn't have to be moving me forward in any particular direction. It's really just honoring myself. Little did I know that repeating those behaviors over time would completely change how I live my life in every simple regard. But at the time I didn't know that it was just practicing honoring myself.

• 21:56Jay Shetty?

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• 22:41Jay Shetty?

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• 23:24Jay Shetty?

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• 24:09Jay Shetty?

  I'm sure in your career, like the career path you had that you wanted to break away from, I'm sure there were a number of peers that wanted to break away too. I'm guessing, I'm assuming, having worked in-

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Well, the legal profession is filled with people who are not, not exactly fulfilled, doing that.

• 24:25Jay Shetty?

  Right, right, I assumed that.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  It's an interesting thing, though, when you say, you know, I'm not gonna do this anymore, I'm gonna go do this other thing. You think they would celebrate you, but actually they get very angry.

• 24:34Jay Shetty?

  Of course, yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Because if you could break out, that means they can too, and they have to, they have to really confront that in themselves.

• 24:40Jay Shetty?

  And that's my point, that if you had peers that, what was different about your ability to break out? And, and I'm not saying, and I, you know, you're not an egotistic person, I'm not asking you to be egotistic, I'm asking you to share lessons. What was different in that you were able to break out and do something that now you're more aligned with? Who you want to be as the future moves on versus the people that don't make that step? What is the difference?

• 25:04Speaker 01

  I think it was abandoning any connection to practicality and really living in faith. You know, it really tested my faith. The reason I was able to do it is because, and this is with Julie's help, was because I embraced the fact that it was a spiritual journey fundamentally. So, yes, I left being a lawyer and I became this ultra endurance athlete and author and podcaster. But it wasn't because when I was a lawyer, I got out my whiteboard and created a wish list or, you know, basically tried to, you know, create, this is my dream scenario for my life. I just started engaging in what I felt was more aligned with my unique blueprint.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  And with that, I would start pulling on the threads that would appear every day. And I was tested. It was very difficult. We went through incredible financial dismantling. Like, I was tested in every regard you can imagine. People saying I was crazy, all of it, right? But by having faith and trusting in that sense of what was right for myself and learning to listen to and rely on that instinctual voice, I think taught me a lot about who I am and also about resolve. And ultimately, I think that's why I was able to see it through. So if you look on the internet, it kind of looks like it all happened like this. Like overnight, I just made this decision and became this other thing.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  This is, this was like, I mean, I've been doing this for, you know, 15 years at this point. And I got sober at 31. It really began when I went to rehab at age 31 and started to reconfigure my life based on spiritual principles. And here I am 22, 23 years later, still learning, still growing, still making mistakes. So it's very much not an overnight thing and it's all a spiritual journey.

• 26:56Jay Shetty?

  And what is your faith in at that time? Because it's almost like... Most people, when they're in that transition, it's like you don't really have faith in yourself, or you may not have faith in your skills. Like, is your faith in the belief that doing the right thing is the right thing either way? Or is your faith in the fact that you have your wife who's supportive? Like, what is that faith in? Because I feel like that's the hardest thing for people. And I can only speak for myself that I knew that my faith was in the guidance of my teachers. My faith was in the books that I'd read and the philosophy I believed in. And my faith was in, there's a beautiful, beautiful verse in a text called the Manu Smithi, which says that if you protect your purpose, your purpose protects you.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:34Jay Shetty?

  And that was what my faith was in, was that statement. And I was like, I am gonna test that statement to its limits.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  But that statement requires that you understand what your purpose is.

• 27:44Jay Shetty?

  Correct, yes, absolutely.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  And I very much did not know what that was.

• 27:46Jay Shetty?

  That's what I'm saying. So what was your faith in?

• 27:48Speaker 01

  So, well, first of all, I will say that I was on a, I was on a journey to discover what that purpose was. And I had a fundamental belief that, that I did have a, that there is or was a purpose for me to discover. And I used endurance training as a vehicle for that process of self-discovery. Because there's something about being out on a trail for hours and hours and hours, or on an eight-hour bike ride, you're stripped of all artifice. And the kind of low-grade suffering that you experience forces you to confront yourself in a very honest way. Right? And you meet yourself in a place that you're not used to.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  And, and there's, there's a, um, there's a lack of, of artificiality and artifice in that place, where you can be really honest. Like, you're, you're wrestling with your soul at the most profound level, I think. And, and that's what attracted me to this world. And that's what helped me answer all of these questions, getting comfortable in that crucible. But if I had to say, what is the philosophical belief that kind of underpins that? I would say that, that, um...

• 28:57Speaker 01

  That we all are truly here. We are here to grow and we are here to on a journey of greater self-actualization. And the closer we can approximate that place of self-actualization, the better position we are in to express our unique blueprint and purpose in service to other human beings. Right? And for me, it's been a process of trying to uncover what that is for me and then ultimately bring greater expression to that for the betterment of other people.

• 29:28Jay Shetty?

  What does it feel like right now that it is for you compared to when you first started on this path? Where's the evolution of that?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's interesting because for a long time it was like, oh, you're the vegan ultra endurance athlete guy. And it's like, yeah, I am and I did those things. But that's just one expression of who I am. And the podcast, you know, much like your show, has been about trying to continue that growth and to understand that I was able to do those things in the endurance world because I understood that we are all sitting on top of gigantic reservoirs of human potential that remain untapped. And I was able to tap into that aspect of myself in an athletic context and express that. But there are all these other areas of untapped potential in my life and in my friends, people that I meet, everybody's life, right?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  And I wanted to continue that growth curve and that learning process of tapping into those other areas spiritually, mentally, emotionally, intellectually, socially, every aspect of what it means to be as self-actualized as we possibly can.

• 30:35Jay Shetty?

  And what do we do? You've mentioned that a few times now. Like, you know, it's interesting that when you achieve something, your identity becomes crafted around it. So it's almost like you're that healthy vegan dude and you know, like you didn't... And then I can see that there's a part of you that... Almost, there's a part of you that's like, but that's not all of me. And, and I'm more than that.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want to be defined by that marker.

• 30:58Jay Shetty?

  How do you, how do you process that? Because I think a lot of people struggle with that, whether it's their past failures or their past successes, that start to define everything about who they attract in their life, who they spend time with, what opportunities they come their way. I mean, I'll give an example of something that's coming to my mind right now is when, when we had Kobe Bryant on the show and Kobe started to talk about how like, and this, this was huge for me, he was saying, basically, no one believed that he could make TV or movies or media because he was a basketball player. They're like, what do you know about this space? And so when he was trying to sell these shows, no one wanted to buy them. And that's why he had to build his own studio. And that's where he was building the studio for Dear Basketball and he was writing these

• 31:40Jay Shetty?

  novels and these books that were then being turned into movies and TV shows and podcasts. So even someone like him was totally being pigeonholed and defined. How do you process that for yourself? And how do you help other people process anyone who feels limited by their past failures, but also limited by their past successes?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Well, a couple of things. First of all, that identity or whatever it is that's looming out there is just a story. It's only as powerful as, as you allow it to be, right? You always have control over that narrative or how strongly you want to be reminded of a certain identity, you can always recraft that. You only have control over your own behaviors and your own thoughts and your own interactions with other human beings. You can't control how other people perceive you. That's none of your business. So if you're unhappy with the story that's being told about you, all you can do is act in contravention of that. You can't control how other people perceive that, but you can control the story you tell yourself about who you are.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  So it's about becoming, you know, you, you hear the adage of like, be the, be the movie star in your own movie of, the movie of your life, right? And understand that at any given moment, you, that these stories are just, they're drawn out of thin air. They're, they're, they're, they're not, they're not real. This is a projection. That comes from a collective imagination. So change the story if you don't like it. And if you don't like the story that other people are telling about you, you can mute that and just do your own thing. So when I didn't, you know, when I didn't want to be pigeonholed as the vegan, you know, athlete, I just started a podcast and started talking about other stuff, you know? And then seven years later, that's still a thing, but you know, I'm known for other things now.

• 33:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  People will fall into line, you know, with, with, you know, based upon your behavior and your actions.

• 33:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, with your identity, the way it is right now, what are you most excited to not be known for, but be acknowledged for what you're doing, like for yourself, not from other people, not for the external validation, but what are you most excited about doing for yourself?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Just continuing to learn, you know? I just, I want to be a lifelong learner. And I think that that growth curve, you know, always exists. And there's always people out there that you can, uh, that you can take valid information and tools from to improve your life. So I don't spend a lot of time thinking about how I want to be perceived.

• 34:03Jay Shetty?

  No, of course.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  But I think that, uh, and, and people ask me all the time, like, oh, what's the, what's the vision? Where do you see yourself in five? It's like, I don't think about that. Like, I'm so fulfilled in doing what I'm doing right now. And the fact that I get to be on this personal growth trajectory by having amazing conversations with incredible human beings. And then you get to share that with other people and it impacts them. I mean, I don't know about you, but I can't think of anything more, um, you know, more gratifying, any, any kind of career trajectory that would be more gratifying than that.

• 34:33Jay Shetty?

  What's, what's the most interesting thing you learned recently? Whether it was a skill or a technique or a fact or a stat or some resets that blew your mind or some experience that just really changed the way you were thinking about something?

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Uh, that's interesting. You know, I, I probably go back to Kamal Ravikant, like him and his simple practices of learning how to love himself. Like he went, he walked me through these experiences where he really hit rock bottom emotionally in a very, in, in a couple of different ways throughout his life and how these very basic, simple, easy to apply practices have transformed how he sees the world and experiences the world, I think, is really profound because of its sheer simplicity and power.

• 35:15Jay Shetty?

  Do you think, based on that, what you just said now, do you think that? Humans only change through pain.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  I get that a lot. I mean, pain is the best motivator for change, obviously. And I think the biggest changes that I've made in my life have really been forged through pain.

• 35:34Jay Shetty?

  Does that mean-

• 35:34Speaker 01

  I'm stubborn. Like, I'm not gonna change until, you know, my whole world is falling on top of me, and then, "Oh yeah, okay, I guess I need to modify that." But it is amazing how human beings are wired that way, because the possibility of change exists in every moment, right? And yet, we seem incapable or challenged in our ability to leverage that, unless we're being pressured by some external force to do so.

• 36:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. If someone's listening or watching right now, but is feeling like they're a safety, secure, stability-motivated individual, they're like, "God, that's just too much risk for me." It's like, even the spiritual faith, everything you guys are talking about, like, that's just, you know, to live in that uncertainty, to live with that much faith, to push to that degree. What are your advice for them? Like, what would you say to that kind of-

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Well, I would say that security is an illusion. I think people that are focused on security have control issues. They think that they can control the world outside of themselves and their own behavior, and I think that that is a vast illusion that is an epidemic in our culture. I think in every moment, we have this sense of, "I'm good, things are static, like, I can just stay in this place." And the truth is, with every breath, with every thought that we entertain, with every word that comes out of our mouth, we're either growing as an individual, or we are regressing. That's the truth, right? And there is no security. Everything is a risk. We're here for a very short period of time. So, my call to action to everybody is,

• 37:09Speaker 01

  don't wait until you find yourself in some existential crisis, because you've been living your life based upon some, you know, social rulebook that doesn't fit your own blueprint. Instead, embrace what is uniquely you, and have the courage and the fortitude and the faith to try to bring expression to that. It may be scary, and it might contravene what your parents want for you, and it might seem risky, but ultimately, I think the riskiest thing to do is to play it safe and live your life in accordance with, you know, somebody else's expectations of what you should do and be.

• 37:44Jay Shetty?

  How did you know that you'd found something about yourself that was uniquely you? Like, you've said that a few times now, uniquely you. How do you know when something is uniquely you? Because I feel like so many of us are either so influenced by everything that's happening, or we just, I feel like we've lost our ability to talk to ourselves and know that that's our voice.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:08Jay Shetty?

  Right? Like, it's like, most people, when you hear a voice, they hear a voice in their head, they don't know if that's them or something else, and they can't tell the difference. So, what are those indicators or signals where you're like, "Yeah, that, I'm getting closer," even if I'm not there?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  It's a really good question, and I don't have like a simple, pithy answer.

• 38:27Jay Shetty?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  I think it's, I think it's hard. You know, I think you're correct in that we're so distracted. You know, our phones are always in our hands, there's always a reason to not be present with ourselves. And the more detached we become, the more difficult it is to know what that internal voice is. So I think the process of trying to understand what is uniquely, you know, what is unique about Jay involves that looking inward process, right? It's about meditation and mindfulness and getting quiet and trying to, you know, spend time contemplating, like, what was it that made you happy as a kid? Like, what did you like to do when you were left to your own devices that now you feel

• 39:12Speaker 01

  like you haven't done in a long time, or would be foolish as an adult to spend time doing? And maybe there's a lesson there for you to see. You know, I don't know, I can't answer that for you.

• 39:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  But I know that those answers reside within all of us, and in order to heed them or get clarity, you really have to, you really have to have the discipline to carve out that kind of quiet time solitude with yourself.

• 39:37Jay Shetty?

  What's the best advice you've received on solitude on the podcast? Is there any one you remember that? Kind of you just felt embodied solitude, the best with that kind of quiet of that.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's been a couple of people, you know, of course, you have like meditation masters like Sharon Salzberg, who, you know, had some amazing things to say about that. I think maybe the most profound, though, and in the most grounded way was Yuval Noah Harari.

• 40:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Basically talking about how like clarity is a superpower. And now, because we're so distracted, distraction is our natural disposition, to just be clear and quiet, to have presence of mind, to have clarity about what you think about a particular thing, is a superpower where that used to just be normal, right?

• 40:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Which kind of makes it easier to distinguish yourself, because all you have to do is put the phone away, learn how to be quiet, learn how to connect with your internal voice. And that makes you much more capable than the person sitting next to you.

• 40:38Jay Shetty?

  What was the conversation that surprised you the most? Was there anyone that just totally, not blew your mind, but just surprised you with a belief that maybe something you held true, but when you spoke to them, they changed your mind on it? Was there anyone like that, that changed your mind on something that you thought was very concrete in your life? Or?

• 41:01Jay Shetty?

  I know it's a big question. Yeah, think about it, yeah. I'm always fascinated by our beliefs and how they can shift. Like, I've always considered myself to be someone who, it's a, I felt like when I was spiritually immature, I felt like I had my beliefs and they were the answers, and then nothing else was true. So what I believed was true and anyone else's answers were completely false. And then as I started to grow more, you start to realize you know nothing. And you're like, okay, I don't know anything now, because I'm not really sure about any of these beliefs. And then you get to a point where it's like, well, I have some values and beliefs, they work for me. And now I'm willing to trade and upgrade based on what I'm exposed to. Because now I learned that I need to have a map or a guidebook or a rulebook that works, because you need that for life.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:44Jay Shetty?

  But then I hear someone say something and I'm like, oh, like, that has just opened up my mind in a completely different way.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  I think.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  In addition to that, what happens when you're confronted with a truth that contravenes your worldview? The first thing that it does is it pushes that cognitive bias button. And you're like, "That can't be right, because this is the way I see the world." Right? So you feel the resistance coming up. So for you to say, "Oh, wow, I didn't think of it that way," and to embrace that difference of opinion or perspective, I think is the healthiest thing to do. So for me, it's less about, "Oh, here's an example," and more about trying to be in that place of empathy and compassion and openness. And to notice when I feel like my resistance creeping up, whether it's somebody who has

• 42:36Speaker 01

  a different nutritional or dietary perspective than I do, or somebody who was able to get sober and maintain their sobriety by way of a protocol that is at odds with how I think it should be done.

• 42:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  And to just be like, "The world's a big place. The human condition is multivariate. I don't have all the answers." And to be able to sit with somebody who's coming from a different perspective and try to find mutual ground and meet them where they're at with compassion and with empathy, I think is really powerful. It's something that I'm always endeavoring to do with whatever guests that I have on my show. And I think it's what's sorely lacking in our culture right now. And I think if there's anything that I'm trying to do with my show and the example that I set with how I conduct my conversations is to say, "Look, if we want to move forward as a healthy culture, as a healthy society, we have to be able to meet each other in

• 43:34Speaker 01

  our differences with compassion, with understanding." That doesn't mean that we do it with unhealthy boundaries, but we have to be able to have mature conversations about our differences, because this polarization and the separation that we're seeing and the unhealthy siloing of opinions, I think, is really polluting and denigrating our ability to move forward as a healthy society and is deeply concerning to me.

• 44:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I'm so with you on that. I think that's a great answer, because... Yeah, that that lack of judgment and openness and just stopping yourself from, like you said, letting your your controls creep in. That's probably the hardest thing.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:19Jay Shetty?

  Because you've been on a train of thought or a school of thought since you were a kid, and it's built and built and built, and it's got you to somewhere, which is probably okay. And then all of a sudden comes someone comes and just surprises you with a note. What's been the best way you've found, apart from having conversation on the podcast? Have you found that people are able to create their openness in their own lives? Is it more travel? Is it watching things that you wouldn't watch? Like, what have you seen that? Like, how can we encourage that more? For people to be okay with exposing themselves to opposing ideas without placing judgment on them?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I think travel is a big one, right? Investing in experience. People who have who have, you know, done that tend to have broader views and perspectives and and more open minded are more open minded about a variety of issues than people who just stay in one place and have their news feed.

• 45:10Jay Shetty?

  I feel exactly the same way because I find like, as humans, we're so good at that singular judgment. It's like if one person's doing one thing that you don't agree with, you don't agree with anything they do. And and that amplification of judgment is, is, you know, it can be really harsh for us, and I fall into that trap all the time. I I make that mistake all the time where it's like, and we do the opposite too. If you like one thing one person does, you like everything they do. So we we also do it with positives, right? Because it's simpler, I guess, for the mind to process. It requires less thought and less intelligence to either neglect someone based on one negative or appreciate someone based on one positive. It's it's more complicated to look at the gray area.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  So with that understanding, then, how does that influence how you comport yourself on social media, right? There's this. This impetus or impulse, like when something is happening, there's a wrong in the world, you feel like you have a responsibility because you have this audience and this platform to voice your opinion, or redress it, or engage in the dialogue and the arguments that surround it, like, how do you think about and practice that?

• 46:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, my focus has always been like, I'm fascinated by timeless truths. Like, that's where I get my personal sensibility, my personal awareness. Everything comes from things that are timeless. So I'm not the biggest commentator on world events, and I never have been. And that's not because I'm trying to stay away from them because I think they're complicated. I stay away from them because I'm like, this is one element of another problem, another problem, and I'm trying to address the root, which I believe is timeless, as opposed to the symptom that we're currently seeing. That's my personal approach to it. I'm not saying it's the right approach or the wrong approach. It's the approach that feels more natural and uniquely Jay to me, to feel like I want to address those which are timeless truths, the roots behind what is really being affected,

• 47:01Jay Shetty?

  and speak about those at a very human level. And so I've chosen to do that. And because I don't really know when a news report or anything goes, I'm not really even sure if what I'm reading is perfect or right, or, so I'm not confident on that. So I'd rather stick to what I believe I am confident on.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:18Jay Shetty?

  So that's been my approach. I'm willing to dive into it, but that's kind of, that's been my way of addressing it. And I don't feel the need to address what's happening right now because I feel like we also have this obsession of we're going through the worst time, or this is the worst this, or this is the worst that. And I'm just like, well, I'm spending a lot of time with people who are part of the solution, and I'm doing something about it, and I feel elevated and I feel confident that there are solutions out there because I'm spending time with people who are working on the solutions. So I don't really get a lot of joy from just talking about what's going wrong. That's where, because that's the basis of what I learned and how I was trained, and also what I've been fascinated by.

• 47:59Jay Shetty?

  Because I've seen stories change, facts change, this change, that change, opinions change. So I'm like, this stuff all is always changing, but there are some timeless truths through the roots of humanity's issues. Like ego. Everyone knows that ego exists. Everyone knows that ego is an issue. You can see it every day in every form. And I could comment on everyone's ego every day in the media, but I have ego too. And so it's knowing that and working to the root of how do we remove ego and help people to overcome their ego. That to me is more fascinating. For me. I'm not saying that's the most important work in the world. I'm just saying it's the most important work that I can do. And I think that was a big thing for me. And I feel that talking to you like for me, becoming uniquely me was being very honest about what I could do.

• 48:43Jay Shetty?

  And so I don't see what I do as big or small. I just see it as this is what I can do. And that's uniquely me. And that may not be the biggest or the best thing in the world, or it may not be the most needed thing in the world. But this is me and that's my offering. And you know, being okay with that.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, listen, I think if everybody was more uniquely who they are, the world would be a better place. Now, the counterargument to that is like, listen, somebody's got to take the garbage out. And you know, there's, of course, I understand all of that. But I feel like we are living in a desert of authenticity in the sense that everybody's so disconnected from who they are. And we're all reacting to this world and playing this game and trying to be these certain people, whether it's, you know, getting the, you know, the fancy car or the good job or, you know, the right suit or whatever it is. We're living for these externalities, right? And the more that we invest in that,

• 49:41Speaker 01

  the less connected we are to ourselves and to divinity, right? And to our fellow human beings. We are coming from ego. And we're living in this detached state that I think ultimately is a disease, you know? And so if there's anything that I like to speak to, it's about like that reconnection process. And to the extent that we can be more connected to ourselves and to other human beings and to bring greater expression to that, the world then becomes by virtue of that behavior, a better place.

• 50:14Jay Shetty?

  Can you have both how and why?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  What do you mean by that?

• 50:18Jay Shetty?

  Like when you're saying like, because I feel like it's become very...

• 50:24Jay Shetty?

  That rhetoric is very common of like, you know, these material things are taking us away from ourselves. Yet, we find that we all have desires, we all have needs, we all have likes and dislikes. So my question is, is there a path to have things and get connected with yourself? Or are they opposites?

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, the things are not bad in and of themselves. It's our relationship to them. It's what we project upon them. And I think the problem arises when what we project upon them is a sense of identity or contentedness or a crafted identity that is forged through these material items or jobs or whatever it is, right? That helps craft this narrative of identity. And at the cost of that internal journey of like connecting with who, you know, what is truly, you know, what is our heart actually saying? And understanding that that which we seek most, which is connection, happiness, contentment, you know, purpose,

• 51:31Speaker 01

  all of these things cannot be found through seeking in the external world. They can only be found through that internal journey. And our whole culture is crafted around these externalities when in truth, what we seek most is already in our possession.

• 51:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And it's almost like, yeah, and the Sanskrit word is maya, which I'm sure you're aware of. Yeah, and it's like you look at the, it's funny.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  It's all maya.

• 51:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it's so funny how many places I, it's so funny, my friend was here from London a couple of weeks back. And he'd never been to LA before. And I took him to Hollywood Boulevard just to see Hollywood. And he was just like, this is such a letdown, like, you know.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  When you realize what Hollywood actually is.

• 52:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, literally. And it's like, you know, you have this dream of like.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Hollywood's an idea.

• 52:18Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, exactly, right, exactly, exactly. And it's, and it's almost like the physical place never lives up to it. Or, you know, and you see that with so many areas in reality. I remember so many places, I was like, you have to get people like, you have to go to this place. And when I went there and I was like, oh, is this it? Like, really? Like, you know, and I think that's almost like the. The same feeling of when we finally acquired that thing. It's that same feeling, but it's easier to say it when you've had the option to have it or had it.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 52:47Jay Shetty?

  And that's the, you know, that's

• 52:48Speaker 01

  I speak that coming from a very privileged place.

• 52:50Jay Shetty?

  Correct. No, and, and, and, and what I'm saying is that how does someone, this is the way I had it. So when I decided to become a monk, the way it worked for me is I just knew people and that wasn't me or my friends, or it wasn't my family. I had been exposed to people who had it. And genuinely and thankfully authentically expressed their sadness. And that was the difference maker. That the people that I had met that had it, whether I saw them in a conference or I saw them at a video, they opened up and said that it didn't fulfill their needs.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Right. But here's the difference. You had the awareness or the self-awareness to recognize that and to take action on that. But that truth, I think, is not a mystery to most people. I mean, here we are, we're in the Hollywood Hills. You look out here, there's lots of fancy houses, lots of fancy people and fancy cars. And in this town, you can't go a day without meeting somebody who's very well-to-do and yet also very unhappy, right? It's, it is, it's in the atmosphere of this city. And most people will think, well, he just needs to get the next car or the next job. Or when you have that experience yourself and you get the thing that you've been aiming for, and then you have a momentary sense of glee or relief,

• 54:07Speaker 01

  you realize how quickly it fades. Instead of saying, well, maybe that which I see cannot be found in the external world. Instead you think, yeah, but you know, now I just need to get the new Jaguar or the next job or what, you know, it's always, it's that, it's that like, you know, chasing the dragon thing that I think most people do all the way to their grave. And that's the great tragedy, of course. So for you, at a young age, to be, to have the self-awareness, the cognizance to Recognize that and take a contrary path, I think is is unique.

• 54:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and I owe it to just meeting amazing people when I was young, and I think that's the biggest challenge now. And what I'm trying to solve it through my podcast and even like this, like, I just feel that if you're not exposed to alternative methodologies and pathways, then you can never have that option. So I would never have chosen the path that I did if I wasn't exposed to it. And today, we're exposed to a finite number of paths.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  There was no on purpose podcast when you were trying to make that decision.

• 55:06Jay Shetty?

  There wasn't a Rich World Podcast.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  And that's the thing, like, I remember being in, I was at this, you know, look, I went to one of the best colleges in the world.

• 55:12Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  And I remember, like, when I was a senior, thinking like, well, what am I gonna do? Like, I had been a swimmer my whole life, and now I'm faced with the prospect of trying to figure out what I wanted my career to be. And I was baffled. And I remember going to the, the, the, um, the career office or whatever.

• 55:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, career counselors.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  They were like, yeah, there were like brochures for consulting companies and investment banks.

• 55:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, of course, same, same.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is it? There was, I mean, I, you know, look, this was 1988. There was no internet or anything like that. Um, there was the resources that are now available to young people to help make these kinds of decisions. And, and the, the variety of experiences and possibilities that they're exposed to, you know, just would have been mind blowing to me at that time.

• 56:04Jay Shetty?

  You've mentioned your wife a bunch of times throughout this interview as being such an important part of your spiritual journey. What's been amazing for both of you together on this spiritual journey? What have been some of the shared experiences or practices or methods in which you've both learned together and grown together?

• 56:21Speaker 01

  It's been an incredible partnership. I mean, there were so many times when I just thought I was a crazy person, like, I was not practicing law, not bringing in money, out on my bike all day, cars getting repossessed, like, we couldn't pay even the smallest bills that we had. It was very humiliating and emasculating. And I remember being at my breaking point more than once and going to Julian and saying, This is ridiculous. We have kids. I can't pay the bill. Like, I need to go back to doing what I was doing before. And she would say, no, like, we already know where that path leads. I don't know where this path that you're on now is going to lead, but I know that the answers that you seek and the resolution that we need ultimately will be found through

• 57:04Speaker 01

  continuing along this way. Like, you need to, you need to do this. Now, that is extraordinary and exceptional, because most partners would say, what are you doing, crazy person? Like, I'm gonna divorce you, unless you get your shit together, right? And for her to have that kind of fortitude and that kind of faith, to have my back, like, I mean, who gets that? You know what I mean? Like, what an incredible thing to have.

• 57:32Jay Shetty?

  So some people may be listening going, wow, you're so lucky, Rich. You've got a wife who's amazing. And people often say that to me as well. My wife is very supportive and amazing. But what did, what do you think you did maybe early on in the relationship? How have you continued to communicate? Either what did you do before that moment that you feel built such a strong bond with your wife that she had that belief and faith in you and that you had that for each other, if anything, and maybe nothing? And afterwards, what have you done to reciprocate with that love? So she knows that it wasn't, not just that you've solved your life, because that's not necessarily reciprocation. That's just what you believe. What have you done to reciprocate and, and share that journey with her as a way of saying, I'm so grateful you did this?

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, to the first part of the question, I definitely, you know, married above my weight class. So I don't know. I don't know what to tell anyone. You know, like, I don't know what advice is in there, other than like, you know, try to do that, I guess. I mean, listen, you know, my wife is an incredibly strong person. And, and I, and that was what attracted me to her. Like, she just had a sense about herself. So I needed that energy in my life, and that has, you know, benefited my trajectory. In terms of how I pay it back and honor her for that, I mean, that's a practice, just like anything else. And she's just recently started this new business, plant-based cheese business. So it's now about me showing up for her in that regard and supporting her.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  You know, she's written these cookbooks. Like, I think there's something about our partnership where, where We can come together and one plus one is definitely larger than two, where we can co-create and make beautiful things together, but we also respect each other's individuality and independence. Like, we're not relying upon each other to complete ourselves. You know what I mean? Like, she can go and do her thing and I can go do my thing and it's all good. We don't, we don't, we're not like, we don't have like a porous boundary in that regard. Like, we respect each other's respective fiefdoms. And, but then we can come together and do things cool. How did you meet? In yoga class.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Nice, okay. Yeah, I was, I was newly sober. I was right out of rehab. I was in rehab for 100 days in Oregon. Got out of rehab, confused, but understanding that I needed to do things differently. I needed a new peer group, social group. I needed healthy activities to keep me out of the bars and the clubs. And I found my way to a yoga studio in West LA and I just, I went every day. And, and met a whole new group of friends and people that became my social circle. So I'd known her for quite some time, long before we dated. But I did a year of celibacy out of, my first year of sobriety was celibate.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  And that was a very profound, powerful experience that I would highly recommend to anybody. And it was informed, you know, in large part because my,

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  my relationships with the opposite sex was very intertwined in an unhealthy way with drinking and using. And I had to disentangle that and get clarity so that I could become more self-actualized, to be the kind of person that I would want to be in a relationship with. So that was incredibly profound. And then I met, you know, basically I met Julie on the tail end of that one year and I've been with her ever since. Did you, did you ever ask her what she saw in you at that time? That she was, she was coming out of a divorce. So it was never a sense like, oh, we're gonna be together. Like, I thought my next girlfriend, I was coming out of a really awful relationship situation.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  And I thought my next relationship is gonna be with somebody who's younger than me, who doesn't have a lot of baggage and it's gonna be very simple. And I met Julie, who was older than me, had two sons and was getting divorced. You know, the heart wants what the heart wants.

• 1:01:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  I don't think either of us was really in a great place to be in a long-term relationship all of a sudden, but sometimes that's the way these things work out. And yeah, we've been together for 20 years, over 20 years.

• 1:01:50Jay Shetty?

  It's amazing. I look forward to meeting you. What was that, what was that one year of celibacy like? What was the toughest part of that year? And how did you, how did you even get the idea or the resolve that that was going to be the antidote to the experience you were having with women and alcohol?

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  When I was in treatment, I was very aware that, that, you know, I'd reached a sort of nadir in my, in my life, you know? I always thought of myself as this smart, ambitious, upwardly mobile person. I'd gotten in all these, I had all the stuff, you know, the resume stuff to make me look good. And yet here I was, this seemingly intelligent person who found himself in a mental institution. So my best thinking landed me in a place that I'd never thought I would be. And that was a profound reality and realization that I had to take to heart. And what that did was it created a willingness in me to receive help from other people.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  I never wanted to ask for help, let alone receive it, but I was in a, in a, in a, in a place of great willingness to do that. And it was impressed upon me that, that my relationships with women were dysfunctional and unhealthy and I needed to relearn how to do that. And I was told that this would be a good way to do it, celibacy. And I, I was in a place of just saying yes, like if you tell me, if you're telling me that this will make me better, then I will do that, rather than, well, how's that going to help, you know, like questioning it? That's what kept me drunk for a long time. So I just decided I was going to say yes to all of these things and that was one of them. And it was difficult and what you realize is, is how much you, or at least I can only

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  speak from my own experience, but the extent to which I was using relationships to medicate myself in the same way I was using drugs and alcohol. If I felt uncomfortable. Or in a state of dis-ease, I could seek validation or distract myself through the opposite sex. In the same way, a drink or a drug would do that. And I think just understanding that helped me like unclutch or detach from that dynamic in a way that helped me then figure out a better, healthier way for having that interaction. And I think when you say, listen, I'm not dating.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  I'm not having, I'm like, I'm celibate for a year. It's incredibly like, it's a very powerful thing. Cause then it strips away, like basically it removes all of the, the kind of manipulation and ego that goes into like every interaction that you have with the opposite sex and makes you very aware of how much you do that. And also it's like you're standing in your power because you don't need anything from another human being. And I think that helps you reframe all of it. And I would, like I said, like I would highly recommend anybody who's, who's challenged in their relationships to explore that in themselves.

• 1:04:55Jay Shetty?

  I love hearing that from you because I literally just, in my book, I write about being celibate for three years. And I was, I was trying to figure out how to explain it and express it in a way that I felt people would be able to understand what was truly achieved from it. And, and it's funny because in my, literally in my book, I literally wrote about how the, the, one of these definitions of the monk term brahmacharya in Sanskrit is right use of energy. And it talks about the amount of energy that is wasted on the ego impressing, the manipulation sometimes, or the coercing of the opposite or same sex. And, and how much of that time and energy and mental space saved is so powerful for creativity and wisdom and insight

• 1:05:40Jay Shetty?

  and spiritual revelation. And so, yeah, it's good hearing you say it. It gives me, it gives me even more affirmation.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  You become very aware, like you notice, like, oh, like, I'm feeling like I want to do this, but I'm not going to do it. Like you just create, there's a lot of self-awareness that, that comes as a result of that practice.

• 1:06:02Jay Shetty?

  All right, man, we're in the last two segments of today's podcast. So we've got fill in the blanks, which is a new addition that we've started. So I'm going to say this, you've got to finish the sentences. So fitness was always.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  A spiritual practice.

• 1:06:15Jay Shetty?

  I like what it feels like to.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Be who I am.

• 1:06:18Jay Shetty?

  Changing your path can.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Set you free or imprison you.

• 1:06:23Jay Shetty?

  Running the rat race will.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Lead to your demise.

• 1:06:27Jay Shetty?

  Okay, I work towards.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Greater self-actualization and service.

• 1:06:33Jay Shetty?

  Social constructs are.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Illusions.

• 1:06:38Jay Shetty?

  Okay, so these are your final five. You have to answer in one word to one sentence maximum. So your final five, the first question is, what have you been chasing in your life that you no longer pursue?

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  You know, I would, like I said, like, I'd love to say like, oh, external validation.

• 1:06:53Jay Shetty?

  How do you know when you're not following your intuition or you're going against your intuition? How do you know personally?

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  You can feel, you can feel, if you're, if you're relatively connected to yourself, you can feel that dissonance.

• 1:07:05Jay Shetty?

  How, what does it feel like?

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  It feels, it feels like a dis-ease. It feels like a, like a slow creeping anxiety. Like when your actions are not aligned with your values, you know. And I think if you, if you continue to deny it, then the universe makes it known to you. It starts knocking and then it knocks louder and then it locks. You know, it's like, hey, Rich, maybe you should stop drinking, you know?

• 1:07:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Year two, year three, year four, then the cops get involved and then, you know, good. Yeah.

• 1:07:33Jay Shetty?

  Fair, fair. Question number three, if, if you could create a law for everyone in the world to follow, what would it be?

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I really do think the most important thing is to, is to cultivate self-love. Because that's the foundation upon which all good things will come.

• 1:07:54Jay Shetty?

  Beautiful. Question number four, what is your best parenting advice? If you have, if you have a piece of advice?

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Oh, there's so many. I mean, one thing I would say is, uh, your job is to love your kids. It's not their job to love you.

• 1:08:13Jay Shetty?

  Nice.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  There's a lot packed into that.

• 1:08:15Jay Shetty?

  There's a lot packed in there. That's awesome.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  I can just leave it at that.

• 1:08:19Jay Shetty?

  Leave it there. We'll have to go into that on part two. Okay, fifth and final question of the final five. What is the greatest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months?

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  I think the thing in the last 12 months that has really been impressed upon me is the sheer impermanence of everything. Like, at 53 now, I'm starting to confront my mortality in a way that I didn't in my 40s. And when we see kind of the fragility of social structures out there, and now we're dealing with environmental crises and the coronavirus and all of these things, like, we tend to think like we're in a post-history world, and we're just not. And as I age and confront my own mortality and see the kind of, um, the impermanence of everything out in the world, you realize how, not meaningless, but how unimportant

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  most of the things are that we concern ourselves with on a daily basis.

• 1:09:17Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. Thank you, Rich. It's been fantastic. It's amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah, this was a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much for sharing so vulnerably and authentically. I really feel like, yeah, every answer you gave was, was, you know, truly uniquely you and genuine to you. So I really appreciate that, man. Thank you so much. And everyone who's been watching, please, please, please go and follow and check out Rich Roll on Instagram, the Rich Roll Podcast. Make sure you go and subscribe to his podcast. Follow him on Instagram. And anything that he said today or that we shared today in our conversation, please, please, please make sure that you go and post it on Instagram with the quote, with the thought, with the idea. Tag us both in the post as well. I love seeing what you learn and take away from these episodes. It'll mean the world to me.

• 1:10:02Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much for listening to On Purpose, and I'll see you again next week.

• 1:10:19Jay Shetty?

  This podcast was produced by Dust Light Productions. Our executive producer from Dust Light is Misha Youssef. Our senior producer is Juliana Bradley. Our associate producer is Jacqueline Castillo. Valentino Rivera is our engineer. Our music is from Blue Dot Sessions. And special thanks to

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.