Debra Messing & Mandana Dayani ON: How To Talk With People Who Have Opposing Views & Coexist Without Resentment

Mandana Dayani & Debra Messing's passion for action & justice has cemented their bond and their collective voice. Their hit podcast, The Dissenters, is a space for honest conversations and hard questions. Today you'll see how they are helping a movement of world changers gain momentum & learn how you can be involved in making the world better. Dayani and Messing discuss overcoming fear, dealing with overwhelm and the power of showing up. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 2:16Jay Shetty?

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• 3:00Jay Shetty?

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• 3:09Speaker 01

  I think the very first thing you do is you turn inward. And you sit with yourself and really think about what hurts your heart. When you look out at the world, what is it that makes you feel that's not right? There has to be a better way. And if you start there, then you've identified your purpose.

• 3:43Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you who come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, one of the things that I love about the podcast is I get to connect with people that I've followed for a while, that I've seen, that I've appreciated and admired their work from afar. And then somehow we find a way to each other and get to connect and get to find out about their incredible lives, their journeys, and what they've been through. And today's guests are Debra Messing and Mandana Dayani for the show. Now, Debra Messing is the best known for her Emmy Award-winning role as Grace Adler on NBC's Emmy-winning and Golden Globe-nominated comedy series.

• 4:26Jay Shetty?

  Will and Grace. She's also starred in The Mysteries of Laura and Smash, both on NBC. Her film credits include the award-winning Searching, Along Came Polly, and The Wedding Date. Messing will return to Broadway this fall, starring in Noah Hador's new play Birthday Candles. Now, Mandana Dayani is the creator and co-founder of I Am Voter, a nonpartisan movement that aims to create a cultural shift around voting and civic engagement. Its mission is to inspire and excite this generation by making voter identity mainstream. Mandana began her career as a corporate attorney at top international law firm, Paul Hastings,

• 5:09Jay Shetty?

  transitioned into work as a talent agent, and later helped launch the Rachel Zoe Collection and lead the company's initiatives in business development, digital media, strategic investments, licensing, publishing endorsements, and television production. Now, I'm so happy to have them both on the podcast today, so please give them a very big, warm, on-purpose welcome to the hosts of their own podcast, The Dissenters, produced by Debra Messing, Mandana Dayani, Eric First, and Dia Media. Welcome, Debra and Mandana. Debra and Mandana, thank you so much.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Thank you for having us here.

• 5:45Jay Shetty?

  I hope you can feel my excitement and energy through the screen. I wish I could give you both a big hug and an on-purpose welcome, but thank you so much for making the time to do this.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Well, we feel you through the screen.

• 5:58Jay Shetty?

  Good. I'm glad. I'm glad. And like I was saying to you just before we started, you're only the second double act we've ever done, and I always find the dynamic of having two dynamic individuals really exciting. So please feel free to talk over each other, to collaborate, throw your energy everywhere you like. There's no rules, so please feel free to tell me to stop talking as well.

• 6:23Jay Shetty?

  But I want to start off, I want to start off because I think people are so much right now seeking connection and friendship and so many of us have been struggling with loneliness or feeling disconnected, even being surrounded by lots of people but not feeling like we're around our people right now. And I wanted to find out about how you both connected and how you've continued to stay connected. Deborah, you said you're in, you know, New York and Mandana, you're in L.A. How have you stayed connected during this time? So how did you meet and how have you stayed connected?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Well, Mandana and I met for a second about 15 years ago. And then several years ago, we were both on Nantucket Island for 4th of July. We had a mutual friend. And I walked into the house and I saw her and I was like, I know you.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Mandana, however, let 24 hours go by without ever even acknowledging the fact that we knew each other.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  I just didn't want to be the person that goes up to the famous person and is like, "Hi, do you remember we met 15 years ago?" Like, no, I don't remember the person I met 15 years ago. So I just didn't say anything. And then she came up to me and she was like, "How did you not say that we met before?" And then we spent the entire vacation together. I was like, I think I was probably one of the only families that had little kids and Deborah was just like, was so loving and nurturing with our kids and playing with them. And we watched a lot of TV together during the vacation. And then we both, I think, realized how political we are and how passionate we are about activism. And so I think that's really what started as kind of like the foundation of our friendship.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  And I was really beginning to start the work on I Am a Voter and Deborah was just incredibly helpful in helping build and create it with me and this group of amazing women that work on the campaign every day. So I think that's kind of how it all started.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then we fell in love. And because I was filming Will and Grace out in Los Angeles.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Basically, we were spending every weekend together. I basically was adopted by her family while I was out there. And, you know, the last three years have been really difficult spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, because of how divisive everything is. And we just started very organically, sending each other articles and links to people who inspired us, with the intention of sort of, you know, lifting each other up, you know,

• 9:15Speaker 01

  because when it gets overwhelming, sometimes you just feel like all the vitality just drains your body and you feel like, I don't know, can I keep going? And so these links and these people, maybe of, oh, my God, did you see this person? Oh, wait, wait, I have something. And then had this like pile of, you know, names of like extraordinary people. And then Madonna said-

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Okay, wait, sorry, but pause, pause one second. So Deborah, by the way, stays up until six in the morning every night. Deborah doesn't sleep at all. So I will wake up at six in the morning because that's when my daughters wake me up. And I will have a library of like a hundred of the best cat and dog videos like ever on this planet.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Some elephant in Africa that she has been monitoring for the last two years who just had a baby or like took a bath. And then it'll be these like incredible activists from around the world that are doing amazing things. And just by the way, the spectrum of the content that she sends my way is pretty spectacular. But we realized how important it was to have these role models and to see the incredible things that other people are doing because I think all of us have- Very different expectations of what it means to be an activist, or what it means to be someone that gives back. And, and I think ultimately, one day, we thought like, that we should dispel some of the misperceptions around what it is to be an activist. Because, you know, it's something like Glennon Doyle,

• 10:47Speaker 02

  who's a friend of ours, who was on our first episode, said like, activism is something you do in conversation, on the phone with your mom, at the bus stop, in a PTA meeting. Like, it's, you can be an activist in so many ways. You don't have to start an organization. And, and that, I think, really, like, sat with us for a long time. And, we're such nerds. So like, for us, these people are like the biggest celebrities in the world. And, it kind of started as a joke, like, hey, if we launched a podcast, we could meet these people.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  We could make them talk to us.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  And like, we would get their phone numbers.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  We could make them sit in a room and answer all of our questions. And so, that was like, the first thing. I love.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  I don't think, we don't have to air it. They'll never know. Like, let's just say we have a podcast, and then we could just email all these people, like, from around the world, and just be like, can you talk to us? And then, we really started to put a list together, and our friend owns Dear Media, and I emailed her, and I was like, hey, if we wanted to do this, would you do it? And she's like, of course. And then, all of a sudden, we had a podcast. And, um, we put together, like, our dream list of who we wanted to speak with. And I think it was really important for us, it, with this goal of kind of really showing what activism is, was showing people that are challenging and confronting, you know, the status quo in so many different subjects. So whether it was, like, gun safety, environmentalism, LGBTQ rights, you know, animal rescue,

• 12:14Speaker 02

  that, that there's so many ways for people to show up. Um, and, people said yes, which was incredible. And these conversations just like, completely blew our minds. There are so many videos I have of Deborah, with her jaw just open, like, on the floor for 10 minutes at a time. And I would be like, hello?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  The, the thing that, that, um, I can honestly say is, you know, we are such big nerds that we have no filter. So, if these people say something extraordinary, we are screaming, or we're crying, or, you know, it's just, we are responding as if anybody in your audience was in the room and responding.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Basically, we have zero chill.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  And we realised, you know, it was it was going to be launching during the pandemic. And we just really, it was important that we put something out there that was putting light into the world, that was giving people, you know, some permission, some courage, inspiration, empowerment to just take the first step, not to not to get beyond one step. And and so far, the feedback has been has been really amazing.

• 13:38Jay Shetty?

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• 14:23Jay Shetty?

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• 15:06Jay Shetty?

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• 15:16Jay Shetty?

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• 15:51Jay Shetty?

  That's incredible. Thank you so much. I can totally see why you're both just electric to WhatsApp. Even for a Zoom call, I'm like, this is amazing. Like, I wish I was in Nantucket that weekend and got to spend it with both of you. But tell me about how I find that, and I love the way you both speak about activism. I feel like it's very refreshing, and at the same time, I do feel that it's very real and genuine and authentic to who you are. And I guess my first question is, you said that you both just sparked and found that you both had this activism in common. But I find like, for a lot of people, they actually struggle to share their opinions and beliefs and their values with each other,

• 16:35Jay Shetty?

  especially even in small circles, where you could be living with someone or friends with someone and not have a clue what their personal opinion or belief or activism is on a subject. I don't know if you hear that, but I hear a lot of that in the community of like, I just had no idea that this person felt this way, or I had no idea that my mother or my father or my cousin or whatever it is had had this challenge or limiting belief or battle. How did, how have you both encouraged open, honest conversations, even when you disagree with each other or have different views? Or how have you encouraged other people to just start having those? Like you said with Glenn, and by the way, I love Glenn, and she's been on the podcast too. And it's, you know, yeah,

• 17:19Jay Shetty?

  in the definition she gave of like at the bus stop or a phone call, how do you encourage people to start feeling like they can have those conversations with confidence?

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Well, Mandana, I think you answered this because you, your journey to America, I think shaped a lot of how you conceived it.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was actually gonna say two things. I think, on one hand, and so many times when you're an activist, like, you just feel like you're standing naked in the middle of the street, right? Because every, you're, you know, I know that my beliefs irritate some of my friends and some of my family members, and I'm such a people pleaser. So for me to walk into a room knowing that I've offended somebody, or someone doesn't agree with me, and to be able to be okay with that, I think was a very long journey for me to become okay with. So I understand the hesitation, because you don't want to irritate people. Like, we're kind of, we're bred to be peacekeepers. Culturally, I was always raised that way, too. You know, I came from like, a very traditional family, and you're a woman, and you're supposed to be the peacekeeper of the family. And so, it took me a long time

• 18:24Speaker 02

  to be okay with it. But at the same time, I think also knowing that I'm entering a room as myself was incredibly liberating. To not pretend to be something that I was, I think my whole life I had struggled with, I have to be perfect. And so I created these presentations. I would, there was the representative of Mandana that you would meet, and she was perfect. And she was so smart, and she was like, the coolest person ever. But it was so fake, and keeping it up was driving me insane. And so, I understand the fear of speaking up, because you know that you will disappoint some people. But it is so liberating to actually be who you are. And it's so weird, it's so empowering. Like, I feel more powerful

• 19:05Speaker 02

  than I've ever felt. I have, I have acquired incredible people in my life. You are now going to be my friend. But, you know, and you all of a sudden feel like you're surrounded by all these other amazing people. And that is kind of how you, that security is so refreshing. You know, I came to this country, to Deborah's point, we came as religious refugees. So I was about six years old. And that was very formative. I think, you know, I was always raised with this hustle of just like, Take it till you make it, pretend to be American, pretend to fit in, like just hustle, hustle, hustle. No one's here to save you if you fall. And so I think that made me work harder than most people and made me really, really ambitious to like live the American dream.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  And we did, like my brother's a surgeon, I was a lawyer. It was amazing. We did all the things. But I think in a weird way, I was never raised with the question of like, what actually makes you happy? No one ever asked me that. Everything that made me happy was like, that's a hobby. Oh, you like those things? You can do that on Sundays at four P M. But it was very much like, have a job, you know, be safe, blah, blah, blah. And, and I never really learned to challenge my own beliefs or the things that I didn't agree with culturally, with my family, with the things that I was taught. And I think it took a really long time to actually like honor my own voice. But it also took the courage of people like, and friends like Deborah and other active, you know, Sophia Bush, who I know you're friends with, who's a very close friend of mine, you know, would just be like, say it, girl, you got it, just go.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  And, and that, you know, that kind of encouragement, and that's why community is so important. It's so, so, so important. Shannon Watts, who has been, you know, a friend of both of ours, really my mentor through all of my activism, you know, is someone I check in with all the time. And I'm like, is this okay? You know, and, and that is, I think, in this space of really gaining your voice and honoring your voice, having friends that push you and just tell you to keep going, that tell you it's okay. And, cause like you make mistakes, like as an activist, like, and you know this, you'll say things that'll hurt people's feelings. You say things and sometimes they're incorrect. And having your friends show up for you and be like, you know what? That wasn't cool. And this is the way to do it. It's so important and to have people that say, you know what?

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Learn from it and keep going, because we still need you. And, and I think surrounding yourself with people who will be honest with you, but also hold you up so you can keep going is so important.

• 21:30Speaker 03

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• 22:00Speaker 04

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• 22:03Speaker 05

  On October 2nd.

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• 22:16Speaker 06

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• 22:20Speaker 05

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• 22:24Speaker 06

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• 22:25Speaker 05

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• 22:31Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much for sharing that about your background as well. It's truly inspirational. And it's amazing to hear how much you had achieved to then question it all. And I always think that requires a lot of courage and strength to do that. And so I just want to take a moment to recognize that.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 22:49Jay Shetty?

  Anyone listening or watching right now that the hardest thing to do is achieve something, and then the hardest thing to do is achieve it and then question everything you've achieved. And then find and create a new path for yourself. So, yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I don't want to dissect so much of it, but I feel like you were just about to say something, Deborah, so I don't want to cut you off. What were you saying?

• 23:07Speaker 01

  I was just saying the importance of mentors, the importance of finding the leaders that speak your language, or who... who... Inspire you and to follow their lead and to learn. So I think it is a learned skill to speak your truth. Um, you know, I'm, I'm already 50. And it, it took, uh, probably the first 35, 40 years of my life to finally, um, be okay with people not agreeing with me

• 23:51Speaker 01

  and not liking that I am voicing my truth. And, um, you know, like what Madonna was saying, you know, so, so many of us, you know, we are people pleasers and it is, um, it's suffocating. And it, it really does strip you of a capacity for joy, I think. I, at least that was the case for me, you know, especially as a professional actress. You know, I, to get a job, you are constantly dancing as fast as you can and put it, you know, it's, it's like you are performing, trying to be nice, trying to be amiable, trying to be,

• 24:34Speaker 01

  you know, that person, that one person that that, that person wants to work with. And, um, it, living in that headspace really made me, um, realize that it was unhealthy for me and was, um, I was choosing to sacrifice my, my self-esteem, essentially. Because by, by silencing yourself, you are saying that your voice has no value. And, uh, as soon as I, you know, for me, it was professional, it was being pushed too far.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  And finally saying, no, that's not okay. I must be respected. I respect you. And being okay with whatever fallout happened afterwards. And it, that, that has happened many times, you know, in my adult life. And I think, I realize now, you know, the people that will not, uh, cannot tolerate a different point of view.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Are not people, they're not my people. You know, um, you know, I was raised with inclusive as a slivity, being, you know, at the center of everything.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  And so for me, it's like, yes, you can have one opinion, I can have the other. We could have a very passionate debate about our different points of view. But we can still, at the end of that conversation, say, I hear you. It just doesn't sit right with, it's just doesn't, it's not my truth. But I still love you and I still respect you and God bless. You know, and Yeah, totally. Right?

• 26:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love hearing that because I think, and I'm so glad we're having this conversation. And by the way, I'm ignoring all of my notes and completely just

• 26:46Jay Shetty?

  but that's because it's going in such a flowing, in such a beautiful, natural and organic way. But what you said there, Deborah and Madonna, what you're saying also is like, I feel that so often activism can become very attack and defense.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:05Jay Shetty?

  When actually, and what I'm hearing, and by the way, you can totally correct me and I'm here to learn from both of you. So please completely tell me that I'm not hearing it right. But what I'm hearing is that often we see as an attack and defense. But what I'm hearing from both of you, I was talking about a friend today, this morning, who was talking about this and literally said these words to me. He said, you know, so much of activism is attack and defense. But actually what we need is understanding and compassion. And that non judgment aspect that you're both mentioning of like, being able to be open to the fact that other people will have different beliefs and being able to hold that space in that conversation. Because I feel like the other extreme of like cancel culture. Is is actually more, I I would love to get your thoughts on cancel culture without my own and

• 27:51Jay Shetty?

  mine are that, and Madonna, you said this, you said, you know, we all make mistakes as activists. And so when we run into things like cancel culture, we run into things like attacking or defensive activism, often what we end up doing is we end up closing the doors on people to actually change and have an opportunity to adopt a new mindset.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:11Jay Shetty?

  Or my my belief is kind of like, I'm okay with someone not having the same viewpoint as me, but I believe I need to be patient for there to be an evolution of ideation, not that they learn mine, but that we find some way not to agree, but that there is a space for growth. Does that make sense?

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Totally. We talk about this quite a bit, too. I think there's two things actually that you just brought up. One is, I think some people come to a conversation and they don't want to be wrong. So they don't want to hear what you have to say because what you're saying goes against what they believed and for them to admit that means they have to admit that they may have had the wrong opinion and they just double down. And and that is is just something that I think just requires like time for people to feel comfortable letting go of and being okay being wrong. And that person I find is is very hard to convince in the moment and they'll take time and and usually empathy and compassion and you know, it's it's really like we're all just people, like we all have stories. I think that's all, you know, all these stories, all these activisms, just people like

• 29:12Speaker 02

  it's kindness. It's what I teach my five year old, right? It's activism is just kindness in in a more formal way, right? It's if you all just focus on caring about other people and showing up for them. Then then the world feels very different. I think with cancel culture, you know, we talk about this quite a bit. Obviously, there's spectrums and it depends on on what it is, but for the most part, I think a lot of us say things, you know, and it's hard. I don't know everything. Deborah doesn't know everything. Most activists don't know everything. We're going to make mistakes. We're taking risks every single day to to stand up for people's rights. We may call it the wrong thing. We may spell it incorrectly. Like, don't cancel people for stuff like that. It's not okay. It's really

• 29:52Speaker 02

  hard to do that work. And sometimes I, you know, I'll confront some, you know, someone will confront me about something and I'm like, okay, well, you try doing what they're doing and come back at me and tell me how easy it is. I mean, it's you know, someone was getting mad at Shannon the other day. I'm like, she's going against the NRA. Like, it's not that easy.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  And I think there is, there, there just has to be some patience with people. Because we are gonna lose a lot of the good guys if you don't give them an opportunity to, to learn from the mistakes and grow. I don't, I think most of these people have very good intentions. And I do believe that matters.

• 30:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  And I also think that, that the source of, of this, um, this combativeness of, in terms of opposite ideas. I, I think it's all fed by fear.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 30:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. It's, that's why we choose to attack or defend, right? It's almost like animalistic in that sense.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:54Jay Shetty?

  Of territorial nature that we can sometimes mimic in our own lives. But let's say like, I know that my community and audience can learn so much from both of you, and they already are. And I know so many of them want to be activists or want to be activated to do something. Can you give them some guidance and advice on where you start that journey? Because I feel like you, like we've talked about, so many people get scared. And fear is one of two things. It makes you shout the loudest, or it makes you become the quietest.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:25Jay Shetty?

  Right? Fear does that. Fear makes you hide.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  That's so true, yeah.

• 31:28Jay Shetty?

  Or it makes you just jump up and just shout out and do all this thing. And so it's like, fear doesn't drive us in a positive. It, it can spark positivity, but it can't sustain positivity. And, and that's what I find with fear as an emotion. It can get you active, but if you had to give people a step-by-step process of how you feel that they can get activated, how would you suggest that? And that's to both of you, so.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think the very first thing you do is you turn inward. And you sit with yourself and really think about what, what hurts your heart? When you look out at the world, what, what is it that makes you feel that's not right? There, there has to be a better way. And if you start there, then you know your, then you've, then you've identified your purpose. Your cause is your purpose. And then, if, if you feel shy about taking a step.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's, it's, it's help the helpers, really, is, is finding the people who are doing the work that you, that you admire and just saying, I want to be near you. How can I help you? Because you'll learn so much just, just being a part of it, even from the outside. And eventually, that will build your confidence and it will give you a voice and you will be able to take the next step.

• 33:03Jay Shetty?

  I love that. Great, great piece of it. Madonna, before we dive into yours as well, I just wanted to reflect on a couple of those. Like, I, I love the idea of going inward first. And I know for me, it's, it's been really interesting to go inward first and be like, okay, well, where am I demonstrating what I'm being an activist for? Where am I actually acting wrongly in another area of my life? So, you know, like discrimination as a subject, if someone is not being discriminating in a particular area of their life, maybe I am in another area of my life and I'm unconscious. It's an unconscious bias that exists there.

• 33:43Jay Shetty?

  And, and I think going inward is such a powerful way because it sparks compassion automatically because you're like, oh, wow, I had it too. I have that challenge too. But I also love what you're saying about, you know, really having that joining of another community or another team that's doing it. Because sometimes I think we feel so alone that we have to start something. And Madonna, you referred to this earlier, like, you know, you feel like you have to do all on your own. You have to feel like it's a, it's a lonely path to go and build your own, you think you have to go and build your own charity or build your own foundation and supporting someone else's can be a great start. Yeah, I love that. Madonna, any other thoughts that you wanted to add to that?

• 34:21Speaker 02

  I think to your point about failure, you know, I, I hear this a lot about people are afraid of failing. And, and I always expect that you can't fail in activism because... Anything is more than nothing. Failing is not honoring what it is that keeps you up at night. And so, I mean, to Deborah's point, there are so many people doing amazing work. I got a DM yesterday from someone that was like, "I'm a graphic designer. Do you need help?" I cannot tell you how badly we needed help yesterday on graphic design. It was like God sent. We were so happy. And maybe, you know, do that two hours a week and just start and you'll learn about the organization. And now you're volunteering for them. And then you can do more and you can do more and you can meet more people. And there's so many ways to just show up.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  There are so many communities that you can join just by texting a phone number. And then all of a sudden, you're getting messages of ways that you can volunteer and ways to show up. And, um, community is, again, I keep saying it, but it is so important. When we started I'm a Voter, it was like, I was, I identified a need. And all that happened was I emailed 25 of the smartest people I've ever worked with and was like, "Can we all meet on Sunday?" And then, and then it all happened. Nothing to do with it. All I did was get everyone together. And, and I think that, that time together regularly, you realize like, all of a sudden, these are your people. They're your friends. They're like, we help each other in business. We show up for each other. We always rally.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Um, and I, and I think just, anything I've ever regretted in my life was something I didn't do because I was afraid of it. Those are my only regrets in life. Like, I just wish that I had gone harder for the things that I was scared of.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  And I, to your point about, about racism, you know, we're, we're in, uh, we're in a flashpoint right now. There, you know, this is a turning point in our history. And it's, there are a lot of people who are waking up. I think what has shown me is that we're all students all the time. It doesn't matter how old we are. And, you know, I may feel like my heart is, is full of love and compassion. And I have committed decades of my life to helping people, but...

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Obviously, I'm a white privileged woman. And so I have an implicit bias. And I have never been educated. I have never taken the responsibility on myself to educate myself. And now, because of this moment, you know, I have all of these new books and a new vocabulary to talk about something that I thought for the bulk of my life wasn't really an issue for me. And then, all of a sudden, it was like the, you know, the curtain came up and it was like, oh, no, no, no. Okay, now it's my accountability. It's my responsibility to be accountable.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  And I think that that also plays into that feeling of wanting to get involved, is just being a part of the global community. You know, I remember Mandana called me right when the crisis on the border was starting. And she just got on a bus and went down to the Mexican border just to witness it, to see it with her eyes, to see the children, you know.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  I literally just could not believe it. It was just no part of my brain could reconcile that this was happening in my lifetime.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  And that wasn't her issue. But she just saw something that was, it had, she had to participate in some way. And it changed her forever, witnessing that. You know, I do think the thing that I struggle with, when you talk about people who have opposite views coming and finding a space where they both can coexist. I personally am struggling right now with, for an example of, you know, the Mexican border. You know, the idea that there are children in cages.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Like, as a mother, that just destroys me. That, that keeps me up at night. And so I can't imagine anyone who would support putting children in cages and, and stealing them from their parents. But there are people who are just as passionate about that being the right thing. And so in, with that example, I don't know that there is a space for us.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  I think that we could say, I disagree with you, I disagree with you. But, you know, to come together and to sort of,

• 39:37Speaker 01

  to take some of each other's points of view and fold it into ours. I, I think that there are certain things where that, that just is not possible. Or at least it's not possible for me right now in my life.

• 39:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, no, I get that. That's a, that's a really important point to raise. And there's always going to be certain things when you look at them through that lens, it's impossible, right? Like, none of us can sit here and figure out what's going through someone's mind. And I, I think, Madonna, when you're talking about being there, can you tell us a bit more detail about what your experience was? And what it was that really like pushed you and, you know, that moved you in that moment as Deborah was referring to?

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that day changed my life. I had my daughter, my second daughter, and she was a month and a, I mean, a couple of months old. And I was home on maternity leave, so I was just kind of in this natural pause, which I never had been before. You know, I, I, as someone who came to this, coming to America is very scary. Like, when we landed in New York, New York is one of the scariest places in the world to go to. It's this huge city, you know, we didn't speak any English. We had no idea where we were going. We had no money. And all I did was just hold my mom's hand. And that was like, I was gonna be okay. Like, we had no idea what we were gonna do. We didn't know what tomorrow was gonna bring, but like, I had my mom. I was six years old and it was gonna be fine. The idea that someone...

• 41:06Speaker 02

  So vulnerable that they would travel through for months through forests and water, knowing they could die to come to America for the same reasons we all did, which was to have a chance at a better life, to have safety, to have security, to have healthcare. And then somebody would take your kid away from you and for the kid, take your mom away from you when you just went through the scariest experience of your life and you are in a completely unknown place and you probably don't speak the language and you don't know anyone here and you have no money left. I cannot underst- that is a human rights issue. It is not a political issue. There is no way I can have a conversation with someone that can say that that is justified.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  It was entirely punitive and you do not punish children like that. That kid will never be the same. That, I still remember how horrifying the experience was of living in a war and having to sleep downstairs during bombings. I mean, the idea that we put these people in these and gave them like aluminum foil blankets and they had no idea where their parents were. As a mother, when you're in the grocery store and your daughter, like my daughter, turns the aisle and I don't know where she is for one second, that one second is a hundred years. Like that is such triggering pain. And for these, we lost some of these children, like we have never found them. We put them, they like wrote their names on a Post-It note and gave it to someone and it was like Martha, like what? We don't know where some of these kids are.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  We've never reunited them with their families. Some of these kids have been orphaned. It is, it was just, and, and I was looking at it. I'm like, but this is America. America is the greatest place in the world. America saved my family. America, you know, I was always raised like America is the greatest thing in the world. And I love America and I believe that a true patriot challenges America, right? We uphold it to its potential. And so it's okay to say that we're doing things wrong, but it's also important to fight for what is better. And I just got on a plane and I went to Texas. I was like, that was where the first camp was where these kids were being held. And I was like, I, I need to see this. I, I cannot, I don't believe it. I couldn't believe that that was happening.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  And then I quit my job and started doing all the things. But it was, it was, it just was one of those moments where you realize like what is happening is bigger than me and whatever aspirations I have to do whatever it was I thought at that time was more important.

• 43:34Jay Shetty?

  Wow, I mean, yeah, I mean, that, thank you again for sharing that. It's just, just hearing it, like, you know, it was, it's so real just hearing it. And it's, there's no part of it that can feel normal or okay or comfortable to even hear it. And it's, what's, what's so hard, I feel, and I'm trying to just

• 43:56Jay Shetty?

  really share with you what I'm hearing from, from so many people. And that's kind of, I'm just trying to be in that learning seat from both of you. I think for so many people, they're just like, I'm so overwhelmed by everything going wrong in the world. Right? Like, we, we talked about it right at the beginning and it's like,

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:11Jay Shetty?

  I'm just so overwhelmed by everything that's going wrong. Like, this is going wrong and then the political stuff directly is going wrong. And then I've got challenges in my own family and the economy is struggling. And that kind of like paralyzes a lot of people.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:25Jay Shetty?

  Like, you just feel debilitated by all of this because you're just like so much pressure and so much overwhelmed. And then you want the news and you turn on the news and you don't know if the information you're getting is correct. And then you're trying to do research and you struggle. Can you tell us some people or places that you've started to, and you spoke about mentors and people in your lives, who have been the people and the places or the books that have, you feel have really given you both an insight into reality? Or how can people get as close to reality as possible? So that they don't feel misinformed or overwhelmed? Which sometimes can be very real and sometimes can be excuses, right? We, we both know that they can be both for us.

• 45:07Jay Shetty?

  Sometimes they're just crutches and we're just like, ah, you know, I don't really have time or can't be bothered. And then sometimes it's real. It's just like, whoa, I just, I'm an empath and I'm feeling the pain and it's, it's a lot. And so what, what have you found for you and the people that you're working with to help you push out from that? Despite just, for me, it's just seeing the pain. Like, for me, it's like hearing and seeing the pain just makes you want to rush there. But what have been some of the like guides in that journey? Who are those people? What are those places? What are those books? Uh, what are those communities or organizations where you see that happening?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, we, we've, we've mentioned Shannon Watts. You know, we've, we learned so much about...

• 45:46Speaker 01

  The pain of gun violence and the impact it's had on our children from her, Glennon Doyle, Representative Adam Schiff, who gave that beautiful closing speech at the end of the impeachment about

• 46:09Speaker 01

  the America that we all deserve, that we have yet to attain. You know, these are people who, when they speak, it comforts me and I trust them and I feel like I'm learning every time I follow them. I also, you know, I'm on Twitter. I was, I had to be on Twitter because of my job. I hadn't for years. And what I've done is I just have started to follow professors and, you know, professionals in our government, people who are, you know, professionals in the health department,

• 46:53Speaker 01

  you know, right now with COVID, just trying to understand and to go to the source, to experts, so that I feel that I have a touchstone. Because we don't know.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think a couple of things. One is that, you know, for the people that use it as a crutch or as an excuse, I'm like, I get it. I don't like paying my mortgage. There's some things like, you're just an adult and you have to do and you should know what's happening in the world. Like the baseline, like, it's important to be informed. I do think acknowledging your mental health and how you're responding to things is really important. So there are days where I see Deborah and I'm like, it's too much. Like, you turn off your phone, turn off your computer, like, shut it down and like, go hang out with your son and watch a movie. And so I do think that when you are too overwhelmed, you do need to honor that and kind of take a pause. I think, you know, it's hard because the news can feel very divisive. You know, it is so like...

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Clickbaity and you know, it's ratings driven now that it just feels like you're watching like a never-ending football game of people just screaming at each other. And so, I mean, I personally followed, so does Deborah, but we follow Jessica Yellen. She is, she does News Not Noise and so her whole platform is is amazing and she, you know, she, I text her all day and I'm like, is this supposed to bother me? And she'll be like, no, that's not important. It's okay. So people like her and Preet Bharara, who's also someone we covered. He, you know, the way that Preet thinks about justice in America is so I just admire it so much. And so I really respect the way that he talks about the political issues that happen and how they affect everybody and kind of how

• 48:42Speaker 02

  it doesn't really feel partisan when he speaks about it. It really feels like he comes at it from like a patriot who loves America, who understands the foundation of law. And like, and how we need to uphold, you know, the integrity of, of America. And I would say, I don't know, I mean, there's a million more, but I would say those for me are, sorry?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Stacey Abrams. Stacey Abrams is someone who I, I look to and, and follow, and I try to follow by example and, and learn from her.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  I think that, I think that there are, you know, shining lights everywhere if you look for them. But, um, Madonna is absolutely right. I mean, I, I'm an empath. So I get, I get completely overwhelmed. And, um, I can just get stuck and feel like I, I have to do more. I have to do more. Oh my God, did you see this and this and this and this and this? And I, I do need to turn to the people who I love and love me and know me to say, okay, you're, you're not in a good space right now.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  You need, you need, you, you need to just stop and go play the piano because that heals your heart. You know, and, and watch stupid television for a while. Um, I, I do think that-

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Cause Lord knows we are very good at that.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  And I'm really good at sleeping.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  You're very good at sleeping.

• 50:17Jay Shetty?

  That's a great skill. Sleeping is a great skill.

• 50:21Jay Shetty?

  Well, what, what, yeah, it's been, you know, and, and I'm grateful for the way we've taken this conversation because I, I do think that what you're both doing and what you both stand for is community and uniting for change. And which I believe are heavy topics to talk about. And I can see that in the emotion on your faces and just

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:43Jay Shetty?

  the stories you're telling. And these are heavy topics, but the problem is that if we don't take them on, they're not getting any lighter.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:51Jay Shetty?

  Uh, and, and you know, I think that's something that we can all agree on that. If something's heavy and you don't pick it up, it stays heavy and gets heavier. And

• 50:59Speaker 02

  But to your point, Jay, I think the thing that we try to talk a lot about in the podcast also is this like, ask questions. I think people don't want to sound dumb. And so they're afraid to ask the things that they don't know. And, and the activists and the communities that, that are speaking actually are like thrilled that someone's asking them, you know, like we had someone on who's talking about, you know, what it felt, you know, their whole journey being a trans athlete. And, and we were like, sorry, can you explain to us like pronouns? How does that work? Like, how do you, do you ask someone what their pronoun is? Like, do you share yours? Like, how did, you know, Deborah presented a real life example. What was the right way? And he was like, thank you so much for asking.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  I'm so thrilled to share this. And that has been our experience every single time. And so sometimes fear becomes this barrier to you actually really even evolving your empathy in an issue. And so I, I think one of the other things I, I should have mentioned earlier is to just like ask questions.

• 51:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Who on your podcast has surprised you the most with a perspective or an insight that kind of like shocked you in a state with you or a or a moment or an experience where you're just like, oh, like that, you know, that really made sense to me, or that really broke through the noise for me. For each of you, I'd love one from each of you. It'd be great.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, I, I think, um,

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Amanda Min, uh, she is not yet thirty. And um, she was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Um, she was a student at Harvard and was raped in her senior year and the the justice system was not there for her. Um, and she realized that a law in Massachusetts didn't exist that should exist. And and she said, well, so I just decided to write it myself.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Like what? You're just, you're like. And I looked at her and I'm like, wait, wait a second, wait a second. You're twenty. You're a survivor of a terrifying attack. You don't have any structure or any support system. And your impulse is, I will do it myself. And she said, well, obviously, I don't know the language, so I went to Harvard Law School. And I found a professor and I said, look, this is what I want to do. Will you help me write this law? And he said, sure. And it was passed. A hundred, a hundred percent of it was passed. And now there are how many laws in?

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Thirty, I don't know, something, it's crazy, it's amazing what she's done.

• 53:40Jay Shetty?

  Incredible.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  You know, she ended up writing a survivor's bill of rights. That is now being incorporated all over the country. But it started, you know, it was that moment of her just saying, all right, well, I'll just write it myself. That really just. I, I think, I think I had that reaction because deep down, I don't think of myself as a leader. I think of myself as a student. Who is willing to work really, really hard. And so for me, someone is a leader, someone is a leader when they say, I will write the law. Um, and I just have, until that moment, it never even occurred to me

• 54:26Speaker 01

  that I could do that. And here is this twenty something year old who did it.

• 54:33Jay Shetty?

  I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't know that story. I'm so glad that your podcast and your conversations are unearthing things like that for everyone to realize because you're spot on, Deborah. It's like, until you know someone has done it, you don't even think about it. Like, you don't even think about who makes the laws unless you've obviously been in law school. But if not, then you just, you know, you have no idea. That's amazing. That's absolutely incredible. What episode was that out of interest? Just so that my audience can go check it out.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  That was our second one, right after Glennon.

• 55:03Jay Shetty?

  Okay, amazing. Everyone, then you heard that. That's one that I'm gonna go listen to straight after this podcast. So I really, really hope that you guys go and listen to that one.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  She is honestly amazing. Oh, by the way, we forgot to add, she calls herself the civil rights astronaut. So she like, found her way into an internship at NASA and everything that she does is informed by her beliefs in NASA and so by space travel. And I was like, what are you saying? I mean, the whole time Deborah and I were like, what is she talking about? This is the craziest I've ever heard anyone say. Um, but it was really.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  By the way, she still intends to go to space.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's like where she's going.

• 55:44Jay Shetty?

  I believe her. I believe her.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  That was just a little tributary on her, on her, you know, river of life. She's like, that's not really my thing. You know, I've created two different, you know, I mean, it was nuts. Mandana, what about you?

• 55:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, Mandana, I want to hear you as well.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  Honestly, I don't know. I, to answer your actual question of when I was most surprised was,

• 56:08Speaker 02

  not what I thought I would say, but I think it was Zach Skow. Because I went into that episode. So Deborah and I each have a crush. And we were like, okay, in our twenties, since we really did this to meet these people, we were each gonna like pick one person that we were just like obsessed with and dying to meet, who's also doing amazing work. And so hers was, was this incredible man named Zach Skow, and he's the rescue savior. And he's created this thing called Marley's Mugs and rescued like thousands of animals. And he always rescues like the dogs that, you know, nobody really wants to rescue or, um, and he, so I went into that episode. It's like, okay, this is Deborah is like, I didn't really put so much thought into it. And I just kind of like sat down to listen and his story.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  I mean, he, he was suffering from addiction and had liver failure and was basically on hospice and was told that he was going to die and went home to die and was at a point where nobody, I mean, everyone in the world had given up on him. And he talks about this moment where he knew that his life was ending and he had contemplated suicide so much and nobody even knew he existed anymore. And he was walking into the bathroom and he turned around and, and I could just, it was so, you could visualize it as he was speaking, but he was like, I turned around and I looked over, my dogs were looking up at me like I was the sexiest thing in the entire world because they still saw me and I was still in there. And I was like, you know what, I'm not going to take my life, I'm going to go take them on a walk. And the next day I went on a longer walk and a longer walk and, and, you know, we think

• 57:32Speaker 02

  of him as a rescue guy, but his dogs rescued him. And he speaks about how, and he does a lot now with rescuing animals and working with people in prisons and, and helping them become dog trainers and, but his whole concept was about we as society have people, animals, that we consider the throwaways. They're just beyond repair. We give up on them. They're in prison, we're like, we just kind of write them off. They're animals, they're missing a leg, we kind of write them off. And I've done that in my life. When he said that, I realized like I have a family member, you know, that were very distant relative, that I'd just been like, you know, I just don't think it's gonna, you know, there's much to do with her. And, and I felt so horrible in that moment because I do realize that so many of us give up on other people and this idea that every life, every human, every animal, everyone

• 58:16Speaker 02

  is worth fighting for and, and, and advocacy, it was just, I had not expected the conversation to go there at all. Deborah was hysterically crying and, um, and of course he was crying and I was, and I, I was just, I was blown away by that conversation.

• 58:33Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. Wow. I love that one too. That's, that's, yeah, it's, it's so interesting to hear about people that often we also don't ever hear about enough of. You know what I mean? Like the, the people that you're mentioning, like it's, it's almost like these are not people that set out to be heroes or they're not people that set out to...

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Exactly right. That's exactly right. I mean, you know, we, we reference them, reference to the people that we interview as accidental activists.

• 59:02Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  The, the intention was never there.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  They just, that something happened and they had to do something and they did it. And that's what made, changed their lives. Um, but yeah, these, these are not like sexy flashy people. These are just people like you and me.

• 59:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's, that's amazing. That, what, I guess that, hearing both of those stories just almost like fills me up with hope. It's, it's almost like, you know, like we, we, when we started this conversation, I completely ignored all my notes. But when we started the conversation, which is, which is a good conversation. Was it the best? Yeah, it's the best, yeah, like when, you know, we started this conversation and you start seeing, you know, you're having a very deep, heavy discussion. You know, we're hearing about stories and backgrounds and challenges and issues. And then all of a sudden, you share these two amazing stories and I'm like, I feel uplifted. Like I feel full from, from the belief that like, there are people out there that I can either support or become because I care, right? And, and that's all it is.

• 1:00:05Jay Shetty?

  It's like, I care, like either I'm passionate about something or either I've experienced the pain of something and that's gonna push me into action. And I, there is hope. What gives both of you hope? Because hearing those stories gave me a lot of hope. And so the question that came to me with both of you who are, you know, you're looking at on Twitter, you're on the news, you're speaking about this, you're having conversations, you're researching, you're supporting activists. What, what gives you hope and what makes you feel like good is happening and coming and that, that there is, there is movement?

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Well, I can, I can say that the people that I've met doing the dissenters um, absolutely has given me the most hope. Because what, what they've shown me is that there are heroes everywhere. We just don't know them. And these heroes are working to make the world better today, right now. And that's what, that's what makes me maintain hope is, is um.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Is really, really believing that there are all of these people around the world who are, who are doing, doing the work that I'm not doing. But is incrementally, even in the midst of a global pandemic, everyone is scared, there's still people, you know, making inroads and things are going to get better.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  I, I'm an eternal optimist. So I think that part of going back to kind of my, those formative years of my life and transitioning and coming to America, I think I've always felt this profound sense of luck. Like the only thing that, that was different from me and all the other people that couldn't leave was just pure luck. And so I, I think my whole life I've felt this need to help the luck of other people, like help balance whatever it was that, that tipped me over to this side of, of it. And, and I think when you think about like people in society and community, like everyone can share a little bit of their luck. And, and I think like a lot of what we're trying to do is elevate these voices and kind of prove

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  that everyone has a story. Every single one of us has a story and, and they're all, and whoever, your problems are the biggest problems to you, right? And so it's like being able to look at someone in the eye and have compassion and empathy and find a way to say like, is there, can I help you with that? Is there anything I can do? It's like when you're a kid and everyone teaches you to like, help your neighbor with their groceries across the street, right? It's like, it's that same thing. You're just, it's just a little bit more of a grown up, right? It's like, what else can you do to show up for other people? And I think when you hear these stories, there are so many ways to create these tremendous changes in the world. And there's so many amazing people to continue to learn from that like, I don't know, it's, it's all hope to me, right? I just think that there's still so much work to be done.

• 1:03:08Speaker 02

  And so I, I'm just focused on like, what else can we do? What else can we build? Like, how else are we going to do this? How are we going to grow this thing, you know? Um, and I don't know, I, I think it's just like, I'm, I'm, I'm a lawyer too. So there's this part of me that's very pragmatic. That's like, what are we going to build? What are we going to grow? What are we going to do? Let's fix that, you know? What is the fix? Let's focus on the solutions. Um, and I'm still, I think, on learning a lot of.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  My childhood things that that I think were hard, but I that I didn't I never realized how much they prevented me from using my voice. So I I think it's continuing to empower other people to just be who they are.

• 1:03:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  As corny as that sounds, but.

• 1:03:49Jay Shetty?

  No, no, not at all. I what what in what kind of stuck with me when you were saying that is part of what gives you hope is being a part of the solution and seeing people step up and change. Like, it's almost like you've you've got to be around the change to believe it's happening.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Jay Shetty?

  And and for a lot of us, we're not allowed around the change. We're around the problem. We're hearing the problem. We're reading about the problem and therefore the problem just feels really big. Whereas when you, you know, if you've ever gone out to help a refugee, if you've ever gone out to feed a kid who doesn't have food, or if you've gone out, if you've done that and you've seen the change in that person's smile and their eyes and their life, and you've seen that, then you start to believe that there is change and change is possible. Because I think sometimes we get so lost in statistics and numbers and we start thinking, oh, well, one person, what does that matter? Or 10 people, what does that matter? But all of it matters because, you know, for that person, it's their whole life. So.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  But you could also change that statistic, right? And that's kind of where where my brain keeps going with people. I'm like, maybe the problem is there because we're not showing up.

• 1:04:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  You know, we can fix, we can improve the, you know, the climate crisis if we show up. And we can change so many of the things that bother us if we voted, right? I mean, there's you, you can't, I'm like, it's not okay for you to sit and be upset if you're not going to do the work to fix it. And so, you know, it's really just encouraging people to to lean into it and just like, show up, show up for your country, show up for your issues, show up for your community. And I I actually think people have exponentially more power than they know.

• 1:05:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  I think there's something, there's, there's truth to the maxim that, you know, if you feel, if you're feeling depressed, help somebody.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Right? I mean, I do not know of one person who has helped another person and felt worse after.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it always makes you feel better.

• 1:05:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's fact. And that's why I want to encourage everyone who's listening and watching right now to definitely go and listen to the Dissentist Podcast and also follow Mandana Endeavour on social media to find out new ways of getting involved because if you're sitting there right now and you would listen to our conversation and I've been I've been guiding this conversation and facilitating it for anyone who, from what I hear, which I believe is the mass voice, and that's what I try and do and what I've tried to do today, Mandana Endeavour, with both of you is, the mass voice that I hear is, "I'm overwhelmed, I'm lost, I'm confused, I don't know where to start, I want to do something." And I think both of you have given so many great insights, so many messages of hope,

• 1:06:42Jay Shetty?

  and so many personal and collective stories that will galvanize and push people and activate people today to get involved. So, you know, that was my, that was my simple intention there of which questions I was trying to answer because I think sometimes a lot of the debate that I hear becomes so far intellectual for people. And intellectual debates don't make you feel something. We all only do something when we feel something. We don't do something because we think it makes sense. Like, you don't, you don't stop drinking or stop smoking because you know it's it's bad for your health. You do it because you lost someone because of that, or you lost something because of that. Everything has to be based on, I feel like

• 1:07:24Jay Shetty?

  emotion, feeling is so much more powerful activators, and I definitely feel that both of you have shared so many powerful messages today that have really connected with people's emotions. So, so thank you for sharing from the heart because that's the only way to speak to others as well. And I want to end with two segments that we do at the end of the podcast. One is called "Fill in the Blanks" and the other one is called "The Final Five." The "Fill in the Blanks," I'm actually really excited for both of you to fill in the blanks because-

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  I'm terrified.

• 1:07:52Jay Shetty?

  You're both great communicators and you get to define your terms. So, here are your "Fill in the Blanks." You can decide who goes first and second. I'm not, I'm not going to pick. The heart of a dissenter is?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  The heart of a dissenter is compassion.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  I was gonna say empathy.

• 1:08:15Jay Shetty?

  Okay, the greatest person in the room is?

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Jay Shetty, what are we talking about?

• 1:08:25Jay Shetty?

  That's not true anyway. No, I mean...

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  What are you talking about?

• 1:08:28Jay Shetty?

  I wanna know what you value. It's like the greatest individual in the room. I'm trying to understand your values without asking you, "What is your value?"

• 1:08:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  I think the greatest person in the room is the person who is capable of not only listening, but hearing.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Oh, that is very true.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Loyalty, like people that show up for me. I like, that is one trait I admire more than anything in the world.

• 1:09:02Jay Shetty?

  I love that. Beautiful. Great answers, by the way, guys. Okay, being a hero doesn't mean...

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Being a hero doesn't mean you know everything.

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Oh my God, so many things. It doesn't mean that you have to be famous, rich, a lot of followers, anything. It literally just means that you have compassion and you show up.

• 1:09:25Jay Shetty?

  Great answer. Okay, this, yeah, I'm really glad to do this. Okay, not voting is the same as?

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Not voting is the same as giving up.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Not caring.

• 1:09:49Jay Shetty?

  Great. Okay, and last one of the fill-in-the-blanks. I wish everyone knew that.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  I wish everyone knew that they were capable

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  of enacting change.

• 1:10:13Jay Shetty?

  Love that. And Donna?

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Um, I wish everyone knew that

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  it is okay to be who you are. And that you don't need to be what other people want you to be.

• 1:10:30Jay Shetty?

  Awesome. Okay, great, great answer. So reflective. I love it. This is the final five now. So these have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. Uh, both of you did awesome on the fill in the blanks. So this can be a breeze for both of you. The first one is, what's something you want to give your children that you didn't have growing up?

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Travel.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  College money.

• 1:11:01Jay Shetty?

  Okay, second question. Uh, what have you been chasing in your life in the past that you no longer pursue?

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  I want to swear, but I won't. Um.

• 1:11:15Jay Shetty?

  You can if you want to. I allow everyone to be who they are, you know?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  You do? I would just say, um, no fucks.

• 1:11:21Jay Shetty?

  Okay.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  That's what you, I'm sorry, that's what you're pursuing, but you didn't, or is the inverse?

• 1:11:29Jay Shetty?

  No. What have you been chasing in your life that you no longer pursue?

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  People's, uh, people's, um, people's approval.

• 1:11:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I got that.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, same, 100% the same. Like the whole people pleasing thing. Terrible.

• 1:11:48Jay Shetty?

  This one I really like. Think about it. So what's something that you're so sure about that others would disagree with you on?

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  That America is good and it's worth fighting for.

• 1:12:15Jay Shetty?

  That's a powerful answer.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  That every person

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  is inherently good.

• 1:12:31Jay Shetty?

  So powerful, thank you. Okay, question number four. What's the biggest lesson that you've personally learned in the last 12 months?

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Surrender.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  There's not always the right answer and I don't have to be right.

• 1:13:03Jay Shetty?

  That's the right answer. No, that's a good answer. Awesome. Fifth and final question for both of you. And because I know you both have some laws in your background. So if you could create a law that everyone else in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  That you have to vote.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  Oh my God, stop taking my answer.

• 1:13:25Jay Shetty?

  She goes quick. Deborah's getting quick every time.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  So annoying. I'm literally wearing my voter necklace.

• 1:13:32Jay Shetty?

  You went quick. You went quick. You have to give me a different answer. You have to give me a different answer. It's like family feud or whatever it's called.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  Oh, man. This isn't what you're asking, but we have Shabbat dinners every Friday in my family. And it was the greatest part of my life and childhood. And I feel like people should be forced to sit with their families, assuming that it's okay at home, once a week and just duke it out and learn to work through family stuff.

• 1:14:04Jay Shetty?

  Beautiful. That's a great answer. That's absolutely fun. I love it. Thank you so much, Deborah and Mandana. That was so awesome. Your final five and you're filling the blanks with the deepest answers we've ever had. This is probably one of the most activating and empowering episodes that I believe we've had on on purpose. To be honest, I think that both of you are just full of light and hope and energy that I think we all need right now. And I love how you both do it with so much grace and power at the same time. So, thank you so much, honestly. Thank you from the bottom of my heart and my audience for taking out the time for having hopefully a very different conversation than one that you may have had before

• 1:14:48Jay Shetty?

  and one that, you know, I'm hoping really touches a lot of hearts out there and gets people activated. And everyone who listened and loved today, you can go check out the Dissentist podcast. It's available right now across every platform. Please, please, please go and listen and hear these amazing stories. I know I'm going to go listen to episode two as soon as I can. I mean, that story really moved me and had a big impact on me. So, please, please, please go and check it out. And Deborah and Mandana, thank you.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. This was so fun. Thank you.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Now we're friends.

• 1:15:21Jay Shetty?

  Yes, we are. I can't, I don't...

• 1:15:25Jay Shetty?

  No, I love that. Yes, we are. We are absolutely friends. And I do not wait to spend more time with you both and hear more about everything that you're doing. It would be amazing.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  You are, you are a constant inspiration. It's been an honor.

• 1:15:39Jay Shetty?

  No, you're very kind.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:15:40Jay Shetty?

  Very kind. No, thank you both so much, honestly. This was, this was wonderful. And, you know, I, and I'm saying this to you offline, and I don't mind if it's shared either online. But, you know, my, my goal was just, I'm constantly trying to appeal to people's hearts because I feel like people know what's right, but they just don't know how to do anything about it.

• 1:16:36Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:17:05Speaker 04

  Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 1:17:16Speaker 05

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and the Ravennet.

• 1:17:22Speaker 06

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:17:26Speaker 05

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:17:29Speaker 06

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:17:30Speaker 05

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.