Katherine Schwarzenegger ON: How To Extend Empathy & Compassion For Those Who’ve Hurt You The Most

One of the hardest gifts to give or receive is forgiveness. Katherine Pratt joins Jay Shetty on the show to discuss the power and freedom that can be found in the act of making things right. Pratt discusses forgiveness and the practical ways to include it in your daily life. Holding onto a grudge? This will help you. Shetty and Pratt confront some of the challenges that surround forgiveness while never losing sight of the benefits and freedom that it ushers in. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

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• 2:16Jay Shetty?

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• 3:00Jay Shetty?

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• 3:09Speaker 01

  It's easier said than done for a lot of us to forgive, of course, and it's very challenging to forgive. But you really allow yourself to move forward in so many beautiful ways and open up so many amazing opportunities for yourself if you can move on from whatever had happened to you in your past.

• 3:33Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and wellness podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, to learn, and to grow. And today, we continue our remote quarantine edition of the podcast, where unfortunately, I can't be in the same space and connect with our guests. But I'm so excited for today's interview. I think it's going to be a topic that I know resonates so deeply with so many of your hearts. I know that I've been trying to share insight on this topic for a long time, but I truly believe that the research and the insight that today's guest has garnered from the work that she's been doing is probably going to give us the deepest look into this incredible topic.

• 4:15Jay Shetty?

  So today's guest is none other than Catherine Schwarzkopf Pratt, a New York Times bestselling author, animal advocate, daughter, sister, wife, and stepmom. As a passionate animal advocate, Catherine works as an ambassador for Best Friends, Animal Society, and the ASPCA, lending her time, voice, and energy to spread awareness about animal rescue. As an author, Catherine has skillfully translated her own personal experiences into all four of her books that speak to her generation. Catherine lives with a family in LA, where I'm from right now as well. And today, I'm excited to talk with her about her newest book, The Gift of Forgiveness, inspiring stories from those who have overcome the unforgivable.

• 4:59Jay Shetty?

  I'm going to put the links into the comments section and all areas for the book, and I want you to go and grab a copy. And while you're listening to this, if you're like, I need to read this right now, you can go and order it right away. So, welcome Catherine, thank you so much for doing this.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you so much for having me, and I'm thrilled to be here makeup free for you.

• 5:16Jay Shetty?

  I was just about to say, I want to tell everyone, I literally surprised Catherine that we were doing this video two minutes before we started. So she had no prep or no knowledge that that's what it was. So she has been kind enough, you look incredible Catherine, if I'm allowed to say.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, she's been kind enough to just roll with it. And yeah, I won't be able to feel your amazing energy. So through this.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 5:41Jay Shetty?

  So Catherine, I want to talk to you about so many things today. Forgiveness, obviously, being the biggest part of it because of your incredible book. But I also want us to learn more and more about you. I think that you're such an activist, you have such a desire to make a change in the world, and I think that's so special. But you've said before that relationships, especially your family and marriage, are the most important things for you.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:06Jay Shetty?

  And I wanted to ask you, how do you go about nurturing those relationships? How do you display that priority and that importance every day? What have you done to do that?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I mean, I think quarantine has been like a very unique time to really nurture a lot of those relationships. And it's been one of the silver linings that I have found personally in just being at home and having some extra time to really connect and make an effort to reach out and talk to. My cousins, I have a ton of cousins, so for me to be able to have time to FaceTime a lot of them when I normally wouldn't be able to um as much and just really spend a lot of time connecting to my family, my husband, my cousins, my uncles and aunts, my parents, of course, um I come from a very close and tight knit family already and

• 7:03Speaker 01

  uh we all live five minutes from each other here, except for my younger brother who's been in Michigan for the past four years at college, but he's coming home soon. So um so we do a lot together already, but I think in the beginning of quarantine especially, um it was really important that we all stay in touch and we all connect all the time and check in on one another and that's just really how I was raised. I was raised in a, I was raised with both of my parents always, you know, instilling in us that family's the most important thing and your siblings are the most important parts of your life and they're built in best friends and support systems and to always nurture those relationships.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  And my mom has four brothers and she comes from a very large family as well. So I think I just really grew up with family just being such a huge part of my life and it's definitely something that I fully intend on passing on to my kids is just this importance of family and nurturing those relationships because I think at the end of the day, they are the most important relationships that you have. And it was funny because yesterday I was doing a a podcast with someone and they asked me what, when I feel most successful and I truly feel most successful at the end of the day if I feel like I'm in an amazing

• 8:27Speaker 01

  and great and solid place with my relationships, with my family and my close friends that I consider to be family. So um it's it's just how I was raised and it's been a huge part of my life to to continue to nurture and I try to make a really big effort to always come back to that.

• 8:47Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. And you're expecting right now too, so it's not

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am.

• 8:51Jay Shetty?

  before you share all these incredible lessons with your baby. What's what's that big le- is that the biggest lesson that you want to pass on to your children or is there something else that you've kind of reflected on during this time?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that I've always grown up just being really in awe of my parents and my family and just the importance of family, that every single one of us has this incredible and deep love for one another. And I've, you know, I think over the years, I've come into contact with so many people who have such challenging relationships with their family members. And they always tell me how lucky I am to have such great relationships with so many of my family members. And so I never take that for granted. And so it's definitely something that as I've gotten older, I've always put a huge amount of effort into just making sure that I have great relationships with my family

• 9:50Speaker 01

  members, the ones that are, you know, here in my immediate family and also my extended family. And it's always been something that I want to have as being, you know, a priority in my life at every age and also a huge pillar in my life that I want to pass on to my kids just because it's to have the support of my family has really gotten me through everything. And it's just such a huge blessing and a huge gift. And I always like to thank my grandparents in heaven and my great grandparents for really instilling this in all of us.

• 10:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, what a beautiful value and congratulations, of course.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 10:34Jay Shetty?

  That's an exciting time and just wanna, yeah, wishing baby all the best positive vibes and best energy coming your way for sure. I want to dive in to this incredible book you've written called The Gift of Forgiveness. And I absolutely loved it and I want to dive into different parts of it. So I'm going to be asking you a ton of questions from around the book. And what was most important to me with this book is that you were able to find so many stories from so many different perspectives of people who've dealt with forgiveness and pain in different ways. I guess, starting off with the theme of forgiveness, what would you say are the most Like practical benefits of forgiveness and what are the negatives of almost not forgiving?

• 11:19Jay Shetty?

  Because I think it's one of those topics that we don't spend a lot of time on because it's quite scary to even sit there and think about, like whether you've forgiven someone or not and what forgiveness is. So tell us about, to really bring it down into a grounded level, like what are some of the practical benefits of forgiveness? And what are some of the things that are negative if we don't forgive?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Well, I think the, I mean, the biggest benefit of forgiveness is really freedom. That was something that I really came to learn very quickly when I was doing these interviews for my book. I interviewed over 20 people and, you know, as you were saying, they are all from different walks of life, different backgrounds, different experiences, and that was really important to me because I think it's really telling of how complicated forgiveness really is. And, you know, some of us practice it very easily while others take a very long time to practice it. And some people struggle with it their entire lives. So I, I think the overall feeling is that when you're able to practice forgiveness,

• 12:22Speaker 01

  you feel this enormous freedom and sense of relief from carrying around this, as many people that I interviewed called it, this cloak of anger and resentment and bitterness every single day and hatred towards somebody or a situation. And then also this underlying theme that forgiveness isn't about you and another person. It's really only about you and it's a gift that you give yourself. And that, that to me, in my own forgiveness journey, was probably the most impactful shift to make, was this idea that, oh, I don't have to wait for someone to come to me and ask for forgiveness. I can do this on my own and I can take power, my own power back and take control of my life

• 13:04Speaker 01

  and, and give myself this gift of freedom and forgiveness. And that was really empowering to me because I, I think a lot of people, including myself, you go through these... Phases in your life where you don't, of course, talk about forgiveness and you don't know what it means to you and what the role that it plays in your life. And, um, you know, sometimes we think that forgiveness is a, an act of weakness or an act of betrayal of your own hurt. And, um, and to hear the 22 people in my book and also to talk to so many other people about forgiveness and to really acknowledge that it is such an empowering act of, you know, of us taking our own power back and control of our own lives and giving ourselves

• 13:49Speaker 01

  that gift of freedom from the pains from our past is such, uh, is such an amazing and life-changing thing to do. And so I think that if you don't do that and you sit in this time in your life and you prevent it from allowing you to move forward, those are all things that, you know, are, of course, it's easier said than done for a lot of us to forgive, of course, and it's very challenging to forgive, but you really allow yourself to move forward in so many beautiful ways and open up so many amazing opportunities for yourself if you can move on from whatever had happened to you in your past.

• 14:32Jay Shetty?

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• 15:15Jay Shetty?

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• 16:01Jay Shetty?

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• 16:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love what you said there, that the real benefit of forgiveness is freedom. I think that's, you know, really beautifully put. And I think my favorite thought on forgiveness that you reminded me of, obviously is the famous thought from Mandela, when he said that if I didn't forgive them after 27 years, when I walked out of that jail, I'd still be in prison.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:09Jay Shetty?

  And for me, when I think of that, you just think, wow, like, we don't realize how much not forgiving someone keeps us in a prison and keeps us feeling like we're locked and trapped and we can't live our best, fullest, freest lives. And when you envision that, it's like when you visualize that, you're like, wow, I'm actually trapped in a prison. Like, the word freedom is so liberating. And I think that's what you find when I was hearing the stories or reading the stories in your book. It's like you see how liberating freedom was for people, how forgiveness was for people, and how it literally felt like they, you know, they could soar and fly after that.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think also seeing that, I mean, I also wanted to include stories in this book where someone's act of forgiveness had an effect on those around them. Because I think, you know, sometimes we don't realize how much of an impact a simple act of forgiveness can have on those around us, which is such a beautiful thing. And there are a lot of stories in the book that really show that. So I think it's also an empowering way to look at forgiveness as well.

• 18:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, one thing I've intrigued by actually is is almost like immature forgiveness and how forgiveness can actually be a negative thing on us. Because what I mean by that is, you know, and so many times I feel like, oh, yeah, I forgive them. Like, you know, I'm okay, like, it's okay, you know, like, oh, no, it doesn't affect me anymore. And, you know, a lot of us experience that with forgiveness. And almost that has a negative effect too. Because we say that, but then our actions are different. We're still checking their Instagram profile or we're still reading about their life and we feel a certain way or we're looking through our past or looking back at our past constantly. Tell us about how forgiveness in the immature or I don't know what the right word is

• 19:01Jay Shetty?

  or the more instant sense, isn't necessarily as useful. And what have been your, what have you learned about that whole thing? Because I think so many people try and forgive earlier than they can.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, and I definitely am guilty of that myself. I remember when I first started wanting to write this book and embarked on my journey writing the book. I felt, I became interested in forgiveness because of a big falling out I had with one of my close friends. And when I started writing this book, I kind of felt like, okay, I'm good with my forgiveness journey there. And the world and God, I think, have a funny way of working where I started to write this book and was quickly reminded that I actually had a lot more work to do in my forgiveness with that person than I had realized. And I think that a lot of us want to jump to forgiveness very quickly because we want to move on from something.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  We want to, you know, make a relationship be okay and go back to the way it was. We want to put a Band-Aid on something. We don't want to sit in our pain. And I definitely did that. And I think what I, what I learned is that there is no time limit on forgiveness. And That can be a frustrating thing to hear. And it was a really frustrating thing for me to hear because I kind of felt like, "My god, can't I just move past this? Can I get over this already? Like, why is this taking so long?" And I felt like it was taking up so much of my life and my energy. And I, I really realized that I needed to go back and do work and also give myself

• 20:40Speaker 01

  time and be gentle with myself as I worked through that and got to a place where seeing the person didn't give me anxiety, or hearing their name didn't give me a heart attack, or, you know, that I didn't have these negative feelings associated with a person or a situation. And I think that you can make the decision to forgive, uh, which is an incredible decis- decision for you to make. But that doesn't mean that, once you decide to forgive, that you'll never have moments of feeling angry or sad about a situation, or upset or hurt ever again. It just means that you've made a decision to work toward eventually getting to a place where those feelings don't necessarily affect you as much. But it does take time.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  And, uh, and that's why, again, it was really important to me to include different timetables of forgiveness in this book because, you know, there are people in this book that it took thirty years to forgive. And I asked- Deborah, yeah. Yeah, Deborah Copaken. And I said, like, "Do you wish that you had forgiven sooner?" Because thirty years later is a very long time. And she was like, "No, I don't, because I would not have been ready for it." And then you have people like, you know, Chris Williams, who's in the book, who forgave in the moment of a car accident of losing his family, which, you know, I, I think that people read that and they're like, "Well, how, how did he never feel sadness or anger?" And it's like, no, he did feel all those feelings. He just wanted to live his life from a place of forgiveness.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  So, it means something different to everyone and how you choose to go about that and also give yourself and your heart the time and nurture that it needs to get to a place and to be gentle with yourself in that process, I think is the most, uh, important part of that.

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• 22:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think you're so right. You know, we always put timelines and schedules and deadlines onto all these kind of moments in our life. And it's like, oh, I'm gonna... And it's funny, because, you know, I know we've you know, we've heard this before and we talk about it a lot. Like, if you've got a wound or you broke your arm, like, you don't set your own deadline for when it's going to heal. It has to heal back a broken bone or whatever it may be. But emotionally, we almost feel we can speed it up. And we want to speed up the healing process, which, of course, as you're sharing, you can't speed it up. And sometimes speeding it up isn't even the best thing. So I guess if you've if you're feeling, if someone's listening or watching right now and they're feeling like there's someone in their life that they really feel has wronged them, and I think all of us can relate to that.

• 23:44Jay Shetty?

  Like, I'm sure everyone's putting their hand up going, "Yeah, I feel like someone's done that to me." If you're listening and watching right now and someone's going, "Yeah, you know, like, I actually think you're right, Catherine. Like, I'm listening to you and I think that there's someone in my life, and I haven't even made the decision yet that I want to forgive them." What did you find from the people you spoke to, whether it was three months or 30 years? What were the first steps in getting to that place of not being able to forgive, but being able to say, "I really genuinely want to forgive this person"? Like, I understand that.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think first of all, like, the most common first step is just saying, "I want to forgive." Because there are a lot of people, and I think we all have these people in our lives that we know that are really stubborn and do not want to forgive. And the idea of forgiving someone from Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, however many years ago it was, uh, or even from high school or elementary school is so not an option. And they're so clear that that is something that they need to hold on to for the rest of their lives. And forgiveness is just not something that is, that someone is even open to. So I would say number one most common thing that every single person in this bu- book has is

• 24:59Speaker 01

  the desire to have forgiveness be in their lives, to be open to forgiveness, to welcome forgiveness into their lives. And then really from there, how they chose to go about it was so unique to every single person's situation. So I think that, you know, and there are a lot of people who, you know, go on for thirty years in their lives and forgiveness is a very clear never gonna happen. And then you reach that point where, you know, you realize like, I actually wanna free myself from these chains that are holding me back to something that happened so many years ago. And you use your bolt cutters to, you know, to cut yourself and free yourself from that situation, person, pain.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  But I also think, you know, when you're talking about people listening to this and, um, and thinking of someone or a situation, it was really interesting to me because when I was doing this book, I was writing it and people would say to me, oh, so what are you working on? What are you like writing right now? And I would say, I'm working on a book. And they'd say, what, what's your book about? And I would say forgiveness. And to see people's reactions to hearing the word forgiveness and just hearing about the topic was so fascinating for me as someone who was interested in forgiveness and also writing a book on it. Because people that I've known forever would stop and get really serious. Some would break down into tears.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Some would get really serious and say, okay, I haven't even thought about that for a really long time. Other people would be like, oh, my gosh, I have so many stories about that, about struggling with it. So every single person. Has an experience or an encounter with forgiveness or the opportunity to forgive. And we're all in different places of our journey with that. And it's really interesting to to talk about it with people because some people will say, oh, I've forgiven people. I don't have anybody to forgive. And then you start talking about forgiveness and they're like, oh, wait, I'm actually really mad at this girl from eighth grade that hurt my feelings that I actually didn't even know is taking up so much space in my life.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  So that's why I think that it's such an interesting topic that, as you were saying before, we don't talk about because it's not a pretty or a glamorous topic, but it's such an important one because we do all experience it.

• 27:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, one hundred percent like I, I think you're spot on. It's a hundred percent hit rate of the amount of people who would feel this way. And one of the things I see that I find so interesting is that we almost feel like forgiveness is something that someone has to achieve.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:37Jay Shetty?

  So, so we have this belief that if they wrong, uh, sorry, if they right all their wrongs or if they apologize enough, or if they make it up to me, or if they change their behavior and say, I'm sorry. It's almost like we want someone to achieve forgiveness, whereas the way you talk about it and the way the people in the stories that you're telling and have experienced talk about it. It's not so much that anyone's achieving anything. It's more so that you, you're, you're actually receiving forgiveness yourself. Like, tell me about that process because I think we have so many expectations on the person we're forgiving. Whereas your method and, and the experience that people are suggesting is it's, like you said, it's so much more about you.

• 28:22Jay Shetty?

  It's not really about the other person achieving it or creating it or working towards forgiveness from you.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Well, I think it goes back to how we all first learn about forgiveness. And I think for so many of us, it's, you know, in elementary school when we're on the playground and we have our feelings heard. And, you know, I remember being in kindergarten and having my feelings heard and going to my mom and saying, I'm not going to be friends with this girl anymore and she hurt my feelings. And, you know, and my mom explaining to me like you go to school the next day and you talk to your friend and you guys can make up and say you're sorry and, you know. And so we learn about it when we're little and then we don't really take inventory of what it means to us when we're. Ten or eighteen or twenty-one or thirty, you know, we don't, we don't take a moment to think about

• 29:13Speaker 01

  what forgiveness means to us as we get older and life becomes more complicated and emotions get involved, things happen and, uh, and how big of a role forgiveness really plays in our lives because we don't talk about it. So I think that, you know, it's important to really make sure that we are doing check-ins with ourself because, you know, I'm thirty right now, but what forgiveness means to me can be something completely different than what it will mean to me in ten years from now or five years from now. And I know that I'll be able to draw inspiration from the stories in this book to help get me through, but I always consider myself to be a student of forgiveness because I'm definitely not an expert

• 29:56Speaker 01

  or a master of forgiveness, but I, uh, I have just found such tremendous help from listening to other people's journeys and experiences and being able to realize like, okay, I'm not alone in my struggle with this and I can, you know, I can take as much time or as little time, but just having the desire to free yourself from, you know, being stuck in the past or allowing something to take up anxiety or place in your mind or your life or your day is, uh, to want to free yourself from that is such a powerful thing to do and it's something that everyone in this book has talked really openly about.

• 30:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and I, and I think that's really what I love about the book and what makes the book so great is, I think one of the biggest challenges is we don't really hear people's powerful forgiveness stories. What we hear is our friends and family who feel they've been wrong, uh, hard, you know, harshly dealt with something by someone or people who haven't deal, uh, haven't received the best treatment for people. So we often hear people's pain stories and complaint stories of,

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:03Jay Shetty?

  "Oh, I can't believe he or she still hasn't forgiven me. I'm sorry, you know, they, they hurt me so much. They, they treated me so badly." Whereas when you're sharing these twenty-two stories of people who've gone through the journey, I think just hearing them, just reading them, just, just being aware of them. Gains so much perspective for us and like you said makes you a student of forgiveness, which it seems like is really the first stage. It's like when you start studying forgiveness and you start seeing people's journey, you start thinking, oh, there are people who've moved on positively from this.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's also, you know, one of the people I talked to in the book, her name is Nadia Bolz Weber, and she talked a lot about, she did this video that I had posted recently on my Instagram page that is just about how she views forgiveness. And my mom had sent it to me several years ago when I was really struggling with forgiveness. And it really spoke to me because it put into kind of a visual what forgiveness really is and how it really isn't about, you know, you giving someone else this gift, which I think is where people get stuck. It's like if someone hurt my feelings or caused me so much pain, why am I giving them this gift of forgiveness? Like it's, why would I give

• 32:19Speaker 01

  them something? They've caused me such, you know, hurt. And I, she talked about, you know, them, about forgiveness as being, you know, saying to yourself, okay, what this person did to me was so wrong and so painful and so not okay. I don't want to bring it into my future with me and to take these bolt cutters and cut yourself free from that person or a situation so you can allow yourself to have control over your own life and have your power back. And so I think she also talks a lot about, you know, people staying in this victim mentality of spinning in this story that we all tell ourselves of this was, you know, done to me. I can't move on from this. This person caused me this much

• 33:03Speaker 01

  pain. And this idea that you don't need to wait for another person to come to you and say, please forgive me. If they do, that's an amazing thing to have. And I also included people in this book who had asked for forgiveness, because that was another important thing that I include in this book, because I think we've all been there and we all, or maybe at some point in our lives will be there, where you, you know, go to somebody and ask for forgiveness. And it's not always granted, of course, and

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Um, and Ron Hall talks in this book a lot about asking his wife for forgiveness after he was unfaithful to her and how he was convinced that she would absolutely not forgive him. And what a huge blessing and a gift her, as he called it, Christ-like forgiveness was for him and his life and their family and also so many people around them. But to, to really, I think, take a moment and realize that it's not about you giving somebody something or you giving someone a gift at all. It's all about you giving yourself that gift and that freedom. And if someone comes to you later in your life and says, can I, please, will you forgive me? Then you've done the work already and you can tell them, I've forgiven you and you can have that,

• 34:22Speaker 01

  uh, which is such an empowering position to be in. And such, such an empowering action to go through is to be able to say to someone that you forgive them. And to know that you weren't waiting for them to come, but it's just the icing on the cake that they did. Uh, which is such a, a beautiful thing for a lot of people to experience. But I think if you end up sitting there and waiting for someone to ask you for forgiveness, you can be waiting a very long time.

• 34:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I can definitely relate to that. A, a long, long time ago, probably like fourteen years ago, I was, I was a part of a youth organization and I was a leader of a youth organization in London. And I remember being told that I wasn't tough enough as a leader in the sense that I wasn't able to like be a director and a dictator because I was too kind and too, uh, soft, for a better word, is what I was told. And, and my style, you know, me as a human being and raised by my mom and everyone, I've, I've always been, I get, I'm, I'm okay with being like, yeah, I'm soft. Like that's, you know, the way I like to uh, guide and facilitate growth for people has always been through love and kindness.

• 35:29Jay Shetty?

  And I believe love can be assertive too, but on that day, I was eighteen years old, you know, I'm thirty-two now. And I decided to exercise my authority on someone with verbally. Uh, but, but in using words that I would never have said before, like, you know, and it wasn't that it was swear words or rude words, it was just forceful and. Very directive and you know, just totally out of character for me. And I remember that that person was so offended. And I remember trying to call them to apologize and sending them emails to apologize. I remember like going through people that they knew to apologize and they never accepted my apology till this day. I've never spoken to them ever again. And not because I haven't wanted to.

• 36:13Jay Shetty?

  And and it's one of those moments, how do you heal yourself from that perspective? When you feel like, what did you find from those stories from that side? You're saying like, again, like for those people who feel like they want to apologize. And they may not be able to see that person. Sometimes that person's passed away or

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:31Jay Shetty?

  Moved to another country and you're like, wow, the last thing I said to that person was the worst thing I could have said to them. And now that I can't even change what I said to them. How have you seen people heal that from your studies and research?

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Well, I think self forgiveness is a big theme that we talk about in the book and it's, I would say majority of people say that self forgiveness is oftentimes the most complicated and challenging act of forgiveness that you can go through. And it is, you know, you're your own toughest critic and you will criticize yourself until the end and we get, you know, stuck in those patterns of, you know, cycling over stories or beating ourselves up. And so self forgiveness is a really big theme in the book and one that a lot of the people that are in there talk a lot about. And even when someone talks about a forgiveness journey that might involve another person or a situation.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  The topic of self forgiveness always comes up as being one of the first steps that they need to go through in order to get to a place where they're able to free themselves from a situation that happened with another person or or an incident that happened from their past. So I think that self forgiveness is really a really tough thing to go through. And for your forgiveness journey, no matter if it involves somebody who's alive on earth that you can go and talk to, someone who you can't talk to for whatever reason, someone who's passed away. There are a lot of different methods in this book that people share and have shared about, you know, writing a letter, confronting somebody, not doing either, picking up the phone and calling somebody.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  It's really so personal to every single person's journey and experience. And it was interesting because I had written the book and I

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Was kind of, you know, ready to go and set with it and I had had this, uh, I had dinner at my mom's house and she always likes to invite over interesting people for interesting conversations. And she invited over, um, this, uh, this man named Rabbi Later, who's a big rabbi here in Los Angeles. And he was asking me about my book and we got into a whole conversation about forgiveness and he was telling me about forgiveness in Judaism. And, um, this process that they have in the Jewish culture of, uh, when you ask for forgiveness, that if you ask three times for someone's forgiveness and promise to never do the behavior again,

• 39:02Speaker 01

  and also show the steps that you're taking to never have that behavior come up again. And the person on the third time still chooses not to forgive you, then that burden or sin is now on them. And so I thought that was such an interesting way to look at forgiveness because, you know, some people, no matter how many times you called that person that you lashed out at, they never want to talk to you again because it's almost like a power thing for them to be able to hold that over you for the rest of your life. And they know that you're a really kind and compassionate person and that's going to drive you crazy. So they like to do that, but to be able to have the ability to say, you know what, I tried my best. I did the work. I know myself that I'm never going to do that again.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  And I've, you know, done the work to really evaluate why I behaved that way, why that happened. And you're a changed person and you, you won't repeat that behavior. That that's really at the end of the day, all that you can do in order to allow yourself to move on and practice self forgiveness.

• 40:03Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. Absolutely. That's a really interesting insight. I didn't realize that from the, uh,

• 40:08Speaker 01

  I know. It was so fascinating.

• 40:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's really, really interesting.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:13Jay Shetty?

  Uh, I, I can see people misinterpreting it too at times, but, but it, but, but it's, it's a, it's a powerful principle. In essence, it has a lot of, has a lot of truth in it that I can see would, would help a lot of people with that process.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:26Jay Shetty?

  Uh, one of, one of the other things that, that fascinated me that when you talked about the book was, what was it like for you to sit down with Sue? You know, the mother of one of the people responsible for the Columbine shooting. Like, I feel like she's even sitting in that. Presence and having that conversation, I'm sure, you know, I don't know, maybe it was a heavy atmosphere, maybe it wasn't, I don't know what that, what did that feel like? Like, what was that process like for you?

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Well, uh, my conversation with Sue was fascinating and also really moving. And, um, it was, you know, again, for me, when I was coming up with my list of people for this book and different stories and situations that I wanted to include.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  I think that, you know, we hear about incidents that happen on the news and shootings or horrible things, and we think about, we go immediately to thinking about the people who've lost their lives and, you know, the victims and how terrible that is. And a lot of the times we go and we think about the parent of the person who caused this, uh, horrible event or tragedy. And we think, what kind of a parent would raise a person to do this, or a child to do this, or, you know, what, what did the parents do wrong? And, you know, we, we think that when we're watching the news and we see these horrible things happen. And so I wanted to hear from her, uh, about her forgiveness journey, just, you know,

• 41:55Speaker 01

  having people come up to her and say that they forgive her and also what her own personal forgiveness journey was like. And it was, um, one of the toughest interviews to book by far, but one of the most moving and eye-opening interviews for me, because I really wanted to just listen to her and absorb all the information that she was saying and just hear what it's like to be in her situation. And it's such a terrible and unique situation to be in, um, but also to see what she's done with being put in this situation, I think is, uh, is amazing. And she, you know, does a huge amount of work on suicide prevention and educating parents

• 42:40Speaker 01

  about signs and warning signs to look for in their children, uh, for, for, uh, depression and bipolar and just, you know, different things like that. But to be able to listen to her talk about forgiveness and to hear what her take was on forgiveness was...

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Fascinating and really interesting to me and I also to hear her say that at the end of the day, the person that she will never be able to forgive is herself for not being the mother that her son needed in order to confide in and tell his struggles to and tell her how much pain he was in was so heartbreaking to hear because you look at that and you just think, you know, she also lost a son. And she talks about, you know, that she did her best and she thought that she was the best mother that she knew how to be and that she had the tools to be.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  And that this was really a situation of uh of mental illness and of depression and um and and she, you know, now tries to just help other mothers and other parents to not be in the same situation that she's in, but she's the one who has to live with not having her son here and and not being able to forgive herself for for not being a a mother that her son needed, which I think is just such a heartbreaking thing. So I think I I always tell people to go into Sue's section with an open heart and an open mind and with compassion and empathy because I think people hear her name and they're quick to think, well, what does she have to talk about forgiveness? And, you know, and so I think that uh

• 44:26Speaker 01

  it was important to me to include that and it was a discussion that we went through and structured in the book, which was like, you know, if you're going to include someone like that in this book, like, how could, how are you gonna tell people to be sensitive to that? And I just said, like, when people read her story, it's important to me that you read her story. Not only is it important to me to hear what she has to say, but also important that you read that with um with compassion and empathy because I think at the end of the day, if we all had a little bit more compassion and empathy for just human beings, that the world would be a Much nicer place. So yeah, she was amazing.

• 45:04Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. I mean, that's so well explained. That's, you know, you're so right. And I'm so glad that you took the leap of faith in sharing her story because just what you shared now about how, I mean, you know, you don't expect that coming out of it, like that she's struggling to forgive herself for not being a parent that, you know, and it's, and it's interesting how much sometimes we can reflect so much of other people's challenges and choices onto us and, and, you know, take that as our own burden almost in, in how we function through forgiveness. And you're so right that there is such a need for

• 45:45Jay Shetty?

  all of us to extend empathy and compassion in places where you can't understand it, or you don't see it obviously. And that's sometimes where people need it the most.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I think also, you know, this book also taught me that, especially when I was just talking about how I would talk to other people, people that I knew and people that I didn't know about writing a book on forgiveness.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  It really taught me that the way that we interact with people, I mean, we, we go through, especially prior to quarantine, we go through our lives and we want to just get, you know, the next thing that we want to get our coffee, our salad, we want to get things to go really quickly. And we don't, you know, where we get mad when someone doesn't do something right, or we lash out at somebody. And this, doing this book really showed me how much pain a lot of people are in that we don't even realize are in pain. And we look at so many people and we think they must have the most perfect lives. They must never experience anything painful. They must, they have it all together. They don't experience anything bad.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  And to really see so many people that I've known for a very long time, even in my own life, break down about forgiveness and how, you know, painful it is, or how painful certain situations have been in their lives. That I think just puts, it, it really showed me. My mom raised us four kids to always try to be extra compassionate and empathetic to interacting with people, especially strangers. But it also, you know, taught me a huge amount about how I want to live my life moving forward, and that is to interact with people in a more compassionate and empathetic way, because we never know what someone's going through. And even if we think that we know, we don't really know oftentimes.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  So to just treat each other with, you know, just knowing that everybody's doing the best that they can. And in that life is a beautiful, beautiful adventure and thing. And it's incredible, but it's also for a lot of us has moments of being very challenging and very painful. And so doing this book also taught me a lot about that, because I just met so many people and interacted with so many people who are just really struggling in their forgiveness journey and that really feel like this book has helped them, which is such a huge gift for me to hear.

• 48:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I can only think that that's, you know, that's exactly what the book's gonna achieve, because I think when anyone reads it, you immediately start recognizing that there are so many stories within stories within stories behind someone's story that you see. And you're so right that, you know, when you see stories in the news, or you see stories in the headlines, or stories of people that you read all the time, it's really easy to feel like you know them and make a judgment. But actually, there's just so much more subtext, and there's just so much more hidden in between that. And the book really, really shows you that. Uh, you know, yeah, thank you. Like, you're helping us realize the layers of a human. And I think that's...

• 48:51Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 48:52Jay Shetty?

  Well, you are, I mean, through the book, because I think often it's just a patience thing. It's patience to understand. It's easier to label people, right? It's easier for the mind, it's easier to process, it's easy to make quick decisions. It's easier, and so we like to box, label, divide, create quadrants, whatever, it's put people into different sections. And that's obviously a useful skill for certain areas of our life. But at the same time, it can be so damaging for our mind in creating real relationships and creating human connection.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think also like with social media, it makes it also, I think, a lot more complicated. I think social media is such an amazing thing that we have and such a great gift. But I think it also allows people to be, you know, very critical and very harsh and, and and say things very quickly because it's the nature of what our, how our society is now. And instead of just trying to spread positivity and light and be supportive of one another is, is uh, seems like for a lot of people, it's much more challenging.

• 49:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure, for all of us. And, and I'm aware that being present was a big goal for you this year, like meditating for ten minutes a day. Tell me, have you started noticing any changes? Like, what, what's that practice been like?

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was one of my, uh, my like main New Year's resolution this year was to be more present and to bring meditation into my life. My mom has meditated for a really long time and I had tried it and dabbled in it a little bit and just found it to be, uh, I guess irritating to me. So I, um, I, I really wanted to try and introduce it into my life just because I, at the start of the year, I knew I was going on a book tour and that I had this big launch to come up and, um, and I just wanted that to be a really big goal in my life. And I just found that there are so many things going on that are so distracting that take you away from being really present.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  And that's another thing that I, a big theme that's come up since we've been in quarantine is just this silver lining of being able to be really present in life. And while you're able to, you know, work and do a virtual book tour and connect with people like this, you still have the ability to be present in ways that we would never really give ourselves the time to be present in. And I think that's such a beautiful thing. And what I hear from a lot of people is just this, you know, ability to be present with their spouses, with their children, with their, uh, family, with their friends in different ways and to really get creative and to pivot in life in new ways. And so it was really important to me and then.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Uh, I I'm a Catholic and I grew up Catholic and when Lent came around this year, it was part of me being present this year. I also wanted to, for Lent, you give something up. And I wanted to give up control and controlling certain situations. And this quarantine came very quickly in that. And, uh, but it was, it was a really great time for me, actually, because I am a, I'm a planner and I like to plan things and have things all set and I like to do things in advance. And when this, uh, whole coronavirus thing happened and I had to, you know, people have gone through so many terrible situations in life and lost loved ones.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  But to have my book coming out and to pivot and release control and to really be present in that was such a, uh, an interesting experience for me and, and one that I'm actually grateful to have had. Um, and also to be present to hear, you know, what people are really struggling with and to be able to connect with local businesses here in Los Angeles and support local, uh, small and local, you know, women-run businesses here and, um, and support doctors and nurses who, you know, aren't able to stay at home and have to go in and risk their lives and their families' health. And just to be present in all of that, I think, has been, has been really eye-opening for me as well.

• 53:03Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, what a way to learn that lesson, right? It's like you ask for something.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Very quickly.

• 53:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, you ask for something and it's like, okay, here's the most extreme, extreme version of it. Right? Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much. All right. So we've only got a few minutes left. And I want to be respectful of your time. So we're going to dive into what's known as the final five of our podcast. We do this segment at the end of every episode. And it's questions that need to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. Uh, so it's, it's our fast five rounds. So the first question is, what accomplishment in your life would you say you're the most proud of?

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Relationships.

• 53:43Jay Shetty?

  Awesome. Okay, this is the next one. What's something you once heavily pursued that you no longer care for?

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Stuff.

• 53:54Jay Shetty?

  Fair. What's the thing you've missed most during quarantine that you can't wait to get back to?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Hugs.

• 54:02Jay Shetty?

  That's such a good one. I love that one. That's so true. That is so, so true. Brilliant. Our last two questions. Okay, this is one of my favorite questions. If you could create any law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Kindness.

• 54:18Jay Shetty?

  Nice. And fifth and final question. What was your own biggest lesson that you learned from the last 12 months?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  In one word?

• 54:28Jay Shetty?

  No, no, no, in one sentence, like.

• 54:32Jay Shetty?

  You did very well on the one word.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 54:35Jay Shetty?

  I was gonna say, this is the first time, somewhat like, I think you're one of the three people that have ever followed the rules. I really appreciate it.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  I know. I'm such a, I'm like a typical oldest child, following all the rules.

• 54:46Jay Shetty?

  I love it.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  What have I learned most about myself in the past 12 months?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  I would say honestly, the importance of connection and relationship all over again. I think it's, you know, I turned 30 and I came out with a book and we all went through quarantine. And I think that those, you know, you know, and also expecting a baby. I think those are all big, like, and I got married last year, so those.

• 55:19Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. Yeah, what a great year.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think in the past 12 months, I would say that I really like, just to again, just be so grateful for connection in my life and for relationship and those ones that are really deep and meaningful for me. Amazing.

• 55:39Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. Thank you so much for writing this book, Catherine. The gift.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 55:43Jay Shetty?

  Everyone, I'm gonna end with actually reading some of Catherine's words that really moved me when I read them. If that's okay, Catherine, can I do that?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yes, I would love to.

• 55:49Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. So this is an excerpt from the book, The Gift of Forgiveness. And I wanted to end with it because it's just absolutely beautifully written. So here goes. It would sound much better in Catherine's voice, but yes.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  No, you have a beautiful voice.

• 56:03Jay Shetty?

  There, here we go. "We've all experienced traumas that disrupted our lives and left us grasping for a restored sense of ourselves. Whether being betrayed by a best friend or spouse, losing a loved one to an act of violence, or surviving a terrible ordeal, we've all lived through events that have changed the course of our lives and presented us with the opportunity to forgive. I use the word opportunity because the act of forgiveness is both a gift you give yourself and one you can offer to another person." Now, this part I love even more. "How you forgive," she doesn't say that part, I said that part.

• 56:44Jay Shetty?

  "How you forgive, when you forgive, and whether you forgive at all, are choices that will help shape the rest of your life." And I just thought that that was so beautifully put because I think those are the choices we struggle with the most. How you forgive, when you forgive, and whether you do. And this book really helps us navigate all types of forgiveness. So thank you so much, Catherine.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Awesome. Thank you so much for reading that. I loved that. That was amazing. Thank you.

• 57:11Jay Shetty?

  No, thank you. It's been such a joy sitting with you today. And seeing as you're a recent meditator, I hope we can meditate together one day. I don't know how much you know, but I lived as a monk for three years in India.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Amazing, I know.

• 57:24Jay Shetty?

  And I am a huge meditation fan. And I realized I had, I teach meditation all the time at events or offline, but I'd never done it online much. And when quarantine kicked in, I was like, well, how am I gonna help? What can I do apart from? Helping financially or supporting doctors and nurses around the areas I was in. And so I started doing meditations on live on Instagram and Facebook and we did forty days of meditation. It was just amazing.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 57:49Jay Shetty?

  Twenty minutes a day and it was just, it was so beautiful. Everyone just felt so connected and you know, it was just people from all over the world just not feeling alone. It was so powerful. So I'm so happy to hear about your meditation journey and.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  I haven't worked up to twenty minutes a day yet, but I'll get there.

• 58:05Jay Shetty?

  You will, you will, you'll be fine, you'll be fine. Yeah, no, ten's amazing. It's the way to start. I love it.