Awe Psychology (WONDER) with Dacher Keltner

Awe?! You can study this? You can, and it turns out it’s really important for our mental health. Dr. Dacher Keltner, the legendary UC Berkeley psychology professor, author, and founding director of the Greater Good Science Center, lent us some time to chat about his research into what makes us feel awe, and how that sense of vastness can make our lives and relationships richer. From spending some time under starry skies, to walking past ancient ruins, to listening to a favorite song, these big and little moments can help us feel smaller in the best way. Also: hop into a mosh pit.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

  This episode is sponsored by Seed. Bloating, irregular bowel movement, gas. When your gut is off, it gets your attention. Seed's DS1 is a three-time award-winning probiotic, clinically shown to improve regularity, reduce bloating, and alleviate gas so you can move and eat more freely. Take better care of your gut with Seed. Get 25% off with code 25OLOGIES at seed.com/ologies. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. We have to say that. Father Ward, you say, "There's no way you would need a career coach. You have it all together." That's a lie, and you know it. I actually hired a career coach, and without them, I wouldn't have started Ologies.

• 0:44Alie Ward?

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• 1:28Alie Ward?

  And they were super helpful in helping me streamline. And now I get to sleep more, and I enjoy that. So get the help every entrepreneur needs. Go to strawberry.me/ologies. That's strawberry.me/ologies. You're the boss. Oh, look at this. This is a special episode of Ologies I'm very excited about. And it's brought to you by the lovely vacation rental service, Verbo. And today, this is all about awe, as you have probably noticed from the title. And we're going to talk about exactly what awe is. But you've probably felt it. You've ever stopped in your tracks to go, "Whoa." And felt connected to something bigger. Especially if you've ever seen something you've never seen before, or you've traveled.

• 2:11Alie Ward?

  Travel is one of the easiest ways to really stock up on those awe-filled moments and share it with other people. So we're going to talk about how that works in the brain, actually. And Verbo, thank you for sponsoring this. They make it easy to bring your people together in one place. So you can actually share those experiences and they work hard to get everything right before you arrive. And if something does go wrong, Verbo Care and 24/7 Customer Support are there to help make it right. The people on your trip are full of surprises, not your Verbo. So book your next stay on the Verbo app. I just did, literally. Oh, hey, it's the sidewalk chicken bone your dog yearns for. Ally Ward. This episode is nearly a decade in the making.

• 2:57Alie Ward?

  I don't even want to waste time on an intro, but I'm going to roll through this ologist's cred as fast as I can. PhD, Stanford University, cool as hell dude. Distinguished Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley's Social Interaction Laboratory. Chill. Founder and co-director of the Greater Good Science Center. Author of several textbooks and books just for regular people. Most recently, a book called "Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life." Also, very nice. Host of the dazzling podcast, "The Science of Happiness." Worked to stop solitary confinement at San Quentin Prison.

• 3:39Alie Ward?

  Researcher, whose papers have been cited over 100,000 times. So, a dream. After years, years of hoping to have him on ologies, but schedules just being difficult to wrangle, we finally joined up by video call. And despite all of his awards. And life-changing work, he just hopped on casually. He's got chin-length blond hair, a very easy aura. You could easily mistake him for a guy who spends his days drumming bongos on a beach. But he is very busy and I was thrilled to finally meet him and chat about awe. And the word awe, it shares a root, of course, with awesome and also awful.

• 4:24Alie Ward?

  But like all words, there's been a lot of elasticity over time. And this ologist has defined the word awe as a perceived vastness. Or more specifically, as he recalls in his books, defining it with early colleagues, awe is the feeling of being in the presence of something vast that transcends your current understanding of the world. Whew. So let's get into it and we're going to discuss awe's origins in the brain, where to find awe, noticing it when you feel it, novel experiences, boulevards, graffiti, modern-day connections, how a dark sky can change a life, goosebumps at concerts, why

• 5:07Alie Ward?

  remembering awe can fix your day, how even the toughest moments of life can be awe-filled, getting an elbow thrown at you in good fun, and why thinking about lettuce can make me cry, with author, professor, researcher, podcast host, and really cool guy who is changing how we think about mental health, Dr. Dacher Keltner.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Dacher Keltner, he and him.

• 5:48Alie Ward?

  I know that you know a lot about facial expressions and so it's nice to be on video with you. You have studied facial expressions and I'm wondering, when you're talking about awe, how do we recognize it in other people and in ourselves? Is it just like a dropped jaw? What's going on?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and it's actually a really deep question because awe is often for people when they experience it, it's ineffable. It's hard to describe. It's so amazing. It's beyond your knowledge. Like, how in the world can we make sense of this? And so, one way that we know someone else is experiencing awe is through what I've studied for 35 years in the spirit of Paul Ekman and Charles Darwin, which is the face, like, oh, you know, the voice, which I just made. So, Ali, what would you sound like if you felt awe?

• 6:42Alie Ward?

  Um, ah, I would be squealing. It'd probably be like, ah!

• 6:51Alie Ward?

  Well, probably that. Probably something high pitched in a dolphin language.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Excellent. Well, that has a little, that has the awe sound in it, which I hope our audience heard of, like, ah, oh, but it also had a little bit of squeal of delight. Yeah, so around the world, we call those vocal bursts. They're very meaningful sounds that are old in evolution. And around the world, people are like, whoa, you know, and so, we know when someone's feeling awe with those signs. And then, you know, just as importantly is, how do I know I'm feeling awe, right? And so, it's been interesting talking about awe for a couple of years, because people often say, like, I kind of know what you're talking about. Like, I saw this incredible sunrise, but is that awe? And we know it

• 7:37Speaker 01

  from our bodies, right? This rush of goosebumps, which is a very specific kind of accompaniment to awe, the feeling of warmth in the chest, which is your vagus nerve. People tear up a lot, you know, it's just talking to some friends who's, you know, when you watch your children perform in school, you know, you just start weeping. And that's a bodily response of awe that tells us, in very interesting ways, this is a transcendent moment of the emotion.

• 8:06Alie Ward?

  And I know you begin your book with a really beautiful tale that moved me very much about the death of your brother, and witnessing that, and how that was a moment of pure awe. And so awe is not always something that is a joyous occasion, but it's just bigger than us?

• 8:27Speaker 01

  That's so important because, you know, in the science of happiness that I've been part of for 30 years, we've studied pleasure and joy. And now the field is getting interested in experiences that really are beyond our understanding, which we might think of as like meaning-making. And awe in some sense is the quintessential experience of like, I don't understand why my brother passed away, or what is life, or the cycles of life and death that are part of spring and evolution, or the stars in the sky when kids ponder space. And that's all, right? It's like, God, how do I start to integrate what's beyond my understanding into my view of the world?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  And just to return to wonder and what we might imagine is our next move.

• 9:19Alie Ward?

  I know that you ask participants in studies about moments to recall some of their widest experiences of awe, you know, something that stuck with them. And I'm curious if you find that there's a lot of connection to other people.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:37Alie Ward?

  That happens, or if it's purely visual, or if it's sonic. When I think about some of my biggest moments of awe, I feel like they're shared experiences. You know, when you're in a movie theater, when you're watching something funny with someone else and you're laughing out loud more than you would, you know, when, how does awe impact our personal relationships?

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's such a terrific question and observation, Ali. You know, we surveyed 26 different countries, had people write stories of awe. We encoded them and placed them into what I call the eight wonders, which is music, art, spirituality, nature, big ideas, the life cycle, music, and collective movement.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  But it's fascinating and you've really brought something new, which is that in some fundamental way, the transcendent quality of all of these experiences occurs because we're connecting and merging with other people. So, you know, music's the classic example, like a Swiftie goes to a Taylor Swift concert, sees Taylor come on stage and suddenly is merging with 15,000 people and having a sense of transcendent self, right?

• 10:51Alie Ward?

  Average crowd size, I looked this up, actually 70,000 people. That's so many vibes.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  We find, we do research in museums, like the National Gallery and some science museums. And very often, even you're looking at a painting and you're kind of sharing that experience with somebody and suddenly your minds are merging. So in a lot of ways, collective effervescence is emerging, right? It's where you're at a sporting event, you're dancing with people and our bodies sync up, we start to mimic each other and mirror each other physiologically. And I love the psychological effects of that because you really feel like, wow, I'm a shared mind here. There's something beyond me that's real, and it is.

• 11:36Alie Ward?

  I'm wondering too, in your research, if you were to put someone in a functional MRI and show them pictures or have them recall, do we know where the brain is going?

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, we do. We, we know the big story right now, and you know, this will refine with more precise measurement and better statistics, is the default mode network, which is big chunks of your cortex on the side and the front, which is about the self, tends to deactivate when you feel awe. And, and that's where neuroscience is really illuminating because when you ask people about awe, they say like, I get quiet, I feel small, we did research on that. You just get kind of small. You feel like, you know, in psychedelics, like I'm dissolving, I'm just, there's no me, you know? And lo and behold, in the brain,

• 12:32Speaker 01

  the me starts to disappear.

• 12:34Alie Ward?

  And it's interesting that you can, that you can channel a little bit of that even with a walk and our sense of almost like a small ego death, maybe.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, across awe experiences, people talk about like, wow, my sense of self got small. I didn't hear that voice of like, you know, what are you doing right now? And are you achieving your goals?

• 12:56Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Their self critique so common today.

• 13:01Alie Ward?

  And in our psychedelology episode with the legend, the legend, Dr. Charles Grob of UCLA, he told us that this default mode network is tasked in the central nervous system to hold it together and to ruminate on things and to be somewhat obsessive, somewhat negativistic, he said. Although the default mode network is not just like a little bitch that lives in your brain. It's highly active when someone is essentially in their head, not focused on the outside world and is mind wandering or daydreaming or concerned about just getting stuff done. To paraphrase the 2018 paper, "Default Mode Network Can Support the Level of Detail and Experience During Active Task States."

• 13:43Alie Ward?

  And the default mode network stitches your experiences together to say, this is who I am. This is what's going on. And in terms of understanding its role, neuroscientists observe brain activity in subjects on psilocybin therapy and have found in those pharmacological settings, the default mode network goes a bit offline and then recalibrates to be far less active, so less in their heads, leading people with this greater sense of connectivity to things outside of themselves, as Dr. Grob explained it to us. But you need not trip all the way out to experience this. You do all the time. You probably just don't notice.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  That's all part of this default mode network, big chunks of your cortex and awe reduces activation there. And what's really cool, you know, and this is why we do neuroscience is that's what happens with psychedelics. That's what happens with intense musical experiences, the deactivation. That's what happens in nature and awe. It tells us how wonderful it is to lose the self in all of these wonders of life.

• 14:52Alie Ward?

  So losing the connection to self, as it turns out, is incredibly good for our brains. What's not great is losing connection to others. Do you think that in the last six years since quarantine with COVID and things like that, do you find in your research that people are more isolated, that they're not spending as much time with the people they love, or with strangers, or people watching? Has that research changed?

• 15:19Speaker 01

  When I follow the isolation loneliness data, and COVID was a tough hit, especially for young people. Eighteen to thirty really took a hit during COVID in terms of connections and community, what we've been talking about. And Vivek Murthy, our former surgeon general, is saying this is an epidemic and it's spreading to different parts of the world, largely because of scrolling and looking at Instagram. You start to feel lonely. And one of the findings I'm most proud of is that a little moment of awe, suddenly you don't feel lonely. You can go listen to an awe inspiring piece of music. You can go out in nature. You can sort of think of a person of moral beauty to you who inspires you.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  You'll feel like, God, I'm part of humanity. And that's an antidote to the loneliness. Even one minute a day gets you out of loneliness.

• 16:13Alie Ward?

  One minute a day?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And we worked with healthcare providers for 21 days. One minute a day, we just said, stop everything you're doing. You're in a hospital, put away your devices. Think of a moment of awe. We guided them and it reduced anxiety, depression and loneliness. So it doesn't take much.

• 16:35Alie Ward?

  So filling up your awe bank to look back on can help even on later days when you're feeling lonely or anxious or depressed. Honestly, I'm thinking of this trip that I went on with friends a few years ago. It was one autumn and it was the early evening before Thanksgiving dinner. The sun was going down and we went out to the garden and we picked fresh vegetables. And there was so much to smell and look at. And just thinking of it gives me goosebumps and a lump in my throat. And I never knew. Until this interview that that feeling was awe, just making this family dinner with people I really love and I don't get to see enough.

• 17:19Alie Ward?

  And just one of my favorite life memories, just strolling and picking pomegranates and arugula. And I know you go on awe walks, you say-

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Every day.

• 17:30Alie Ward?

  Yeah. One thing that was so interesting to me, that I love that you talk about both of these, is novel experiences versus familiar and that you can find them in both. And I, I traveled a lot for work for a long time and I didn't travel for pleasure very much because I was on the road. You know, so I just started traveling again for pleasure with family members and husband and stuff. Why do you think being in those novel experiences is just such a daisy chain of awe moments?

• 18:02Speaker 01

  You know, the core to awe is when what you encounter is beyond your understanding in that moment of the world. That's why children, many, you know, my experience raising my two daughters, it's like so much awe early in life because everything is new, right? The Buddhists talk about the beginner's mind of try to make everything new to you and put away your pre-existing ideas and concepts and prejudices. And when you travel, what's extraordinary is everything is different. And I remember going to Europe when I was 16 with my brother and it was just like, man,

• 18:43Speaker 01

  the garbage cans are different and check out how small the garbage truck is and, you know, God, the men wear bright colors. I can't believe this, you know, and check out the mustaches.

• 18:53Alie Ward?

  Totally.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you're just like, wow, you know, and that's wonderful. And so the challenge of life is to try to find that as much as you can.

• 19:01Alie Ward?

  That's so funny. I just got back from New York day before yesterday and, you know, just walking with music in my ears and how big the city is and that bigger than me and how everyone has a story and, you know, walking on cobblestones and how old they were and who laid them. And some of my awe moments, some of those moments that almost bring a tear to my eye have been-

• 19:29Alie Ward?

  In unexpected proximity to friends, are you more conscious about who you're spending time with or who you're experiencing these big moments with?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  You know, Ali, I love your inquiry because what you're saying, and I think you're really right, which is that underlying the awe of music or visual art or a big idea or getting out in nature is emerging, right? Emerging with another form of life or another form of consciousness.

• 19:57Alie Ward?

  And in his 2023 book, "Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life," Dr. Keltner goes into more depth on those eight wonders of life, which he formally lists as moral beauty, like other people's courage or kindness or strength; collective effervescence, experiencing something in a big group; nature, music, visual design. And he cites in his book, "The Grand Boulevards of Paris" or "A Mayan Pyramid" or "Graffiti of Barcelona." And he says, "For some, maybe a machine that sorts pills is a feat of visual design." He also cites spirituality in religion,

• 20:42Alie Ward?

  life and death, and epiphanies. And he writes that, and I thought this was so interesting. He says, "It also merits considering what was not mentioned in stories of awe from around the world. Money did not figure into awe, much at all. No one, he says, mentioned their laptop, Facebook, Apple Watch, or smartphone, nor did anyone mention consumer purchases, like their new Nikes, Tesla, Gucci bag, or Mont Blanc pen." And he continues, "Awe occurs in a realm separate from the mundane world of materialism, money, acquisition, and status signaling, a realm beyond the profane that many call the sacred."

• 21:24Speaker 01

  And the most fundamental is with other humans, you know, your best friends and your children and your partners. One of the things that I write about in the book is that the neurophysiology of awe is fascinating. It's transcendent. The vagus nerve is activated. Oxytocin is released. Your parasympathetic, calming, opening branches to your nervous system are activated, giving rise to tears. And that's the neurophysiology of merging early in life. When you come into life, And you look up at the caregivers around you and you make eye contact and you really merge. And, and I think at the core, as you rightly suggested, is listening to music.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  We think of it as our own interior experience, but in fact, it's really a merging with the sounds and the person who made the sounds, the band, the people appreciating it. So I think merging is key. And you know, what a desperately needed experience right now. You know, we're so asynchronous with others because of the technologies and awe gives us that merging, which is transcendent, really.

• 22:36Alie Ward?

  I think back to the times when I was a Bay Area youth in mosh pits. And I was like, some of those biggest moments.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you're getting to a sweet spot of mine.

• 22:47Alie Ward?

  You know what I mean? You're literally moving like fish in a school, bouncing to the same music and it's bigger than you can even imagine, you know?

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, mosh pits, every human should go into a mosh pit.

• 23:00Alie Ward?

  I know, I know.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  And I love that finding because mosh pits actually are very collaborative. They look like chaos, but they're, they're mathematically very principled and people move around and lose theirselves and they have an ethical code to them. And they tell us humans' hunger for this collective movement.

• 23:21Alie Ward?

  Now, you do not have to inhale someone else's hair or sweat to feel awe, but you should. You should do it at least once, just don't get hurt. And if like industrial death core is not your thing, then keep an eye out for awe in some smaller, quieter moments, like a train ride on a Tuesday or afternoon rain some Thursday, or a summer Sunday morning. It's everywhere you look. Apparently you just have to take notice.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  We want to feel merging with others and sharing in movement. And what I love is the reemergence of these processes like farmers markets. Do you go to a farmer's market?

• 24:04Alie Ward?

  Oh, I love them. When you go to a farmer's market and you're like, they have huckleberries here? Huckleberries are real? You know, like all of these things, like night markets.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  What the heck is this cinnamon roll? I know.

• 24:14Alie Ward?

  I know. It's so exciting. And you never know what things are gonna taste like.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, not only that, and that's the novelty of awe, but then you're like, you're listening to the little kids play music and you're, you know, somebody gives you some fresh tail and you see the nice person in the eyes and you give somebody a hug and somebody's reading poetry and next thing you know, you're like, there's a lot of awe here and a lot of collective life. So it's, it's a deep need that we have. And what I loved about studying awe is here it is, this transcendent experience and usually associated with spirituality and, and, but it really is everywhere. And so we got to remember that.

• 24:58Alie Ward?

  Let's talk about everywhere, like outside in just a minute, but first let's donate to a cause of this ologist's choosing. And this week, Dr. Kettler chose the Bay Area Freedom Collective. It's a grassroots project. They're doing amazing work. It ensures that community members returning from prison are connected to the resources and support they need to be safe, healthy, and empowered as they rebuild their lives. And the Bay Area Freedom Collective provides rides, a safe and sober home, connections, community outreach, and everyday support, and raises awareness about the impact of incarceration on our communities. And the Bay Area Freedom Collective, again, it's a great cause and that donation is only possible

• 25:41Alie Ward?

  because of sponsors of the show. So we're able to make a considerable contribution to them this week. So thank you to Verbo for sponsoring today's episode. It has been very cool to look back and think about the times I've felt awe and the times I've felt really connected to people and connected to something bigger than me. And so many of those have been traveling. We're sitting here talking about how money and material possessions aren't the things that inspire awe, but it's nature and it's music and it's epiphanies and it's that collective ever presence that you have around people. And I think that's why trips do feel so meaningful because you're stepping outside your routine, you're experiencing something together, you're remembering how big the world is, you're remembering how we're just a little part of it, which when you get home,

• 26:26Alie Ward?

  helps you not sweat the small stuff. And actually, just this week, I booked a Verbo vacation rental to go on a girls' trip with two of my girlfriends. One of them's having a birthday and she's a big birder and I found a place on Verbo. You're not even going to believe this. This is just a true Personal experience here that was tailored to bird watchers. No joke, the bedspreads have birds on them. All the pictures on the wall, gorgeous wildlife photography. It's next to a birding hotspot and miles and miles of trails on protected land. She has no idea where we're going. I found this place on Verbo. I freaked out. I sent it to my other friend.

• 27:09Alie Ward?

  The exclamation points in the text thread. Excessive, but warranted. So I'm so excited. We're going to go there this weekend for her birthday and I'm really stoked to think about the dark skies. I'm going to see the birds, the hiking, the laughs we're going to have. It's exactly what I need and I know she's going to dig it. So Verbo is built for that kind of connection, giving you a space to come back to and share those moments, whether it's recounting the day or cooking together or just being in the same place. And it definitely helps remove some of the stress that can come with planning group travel. They focus on getting the details right ahead of time. And if something unexpected happens, Verbo Care and their 24/7 support team are there to help.

• 27:53Alie Ward?

  So you can stay focused on those awe moments and birds and stars in my case. So you can check out the Verbo app for your next group trip. You deserve it. It's scientifically good for you. Okay, let's talk about the birds and the bees, but really just going outside. Can we talk a little bit about nature and awe? Cause that's another easily accessible and quiet sometimes.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:22Alie Ward?

  Unless you're next to a roaring waterfall. But yeah, what, what is it about nature that gives us that sense?

• 28:30Speaker 01

  You know, I, and I continue to study this. So one of our most common sources of awe worldwide is nature, you know? Big trees and oceans and the pattern of waves and electrical storms and the big night sky, there's work.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  By Troy Allen in Utah and just like getting people out to look at the big sky.

• 28:53Alie Ward?

  So Dr. Troy Allen, I just looked him up. He's at Utah State University Extension and he specializes in mental health and nature focused programs for veterans and for rural populations, including teens. And for more on his work, you can see the 2026 paper, Time, Vastness and Belonging: Outcomes from a Teen Dark Sky Curriculum Pilot in Colorado. So essentially, hey, it works to take kids out to look at the sky and see something bigger than what's on their phone. But if you're like, shoot, Utah's too far and there's no way anyone would believe I'm a high school sophomore. Don't worry. You could always take a little road trip to a dark sky area. Or you just sit on the porch, check out a meteor shower.

• 29:37Alie Ward?

  You can look at the next full moon. You can go glamping. Just go outside, feel some air, smell some plants.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  You know, and the stars in England, they have the cloud spotting society, just nature is filled with awe. It's so remarkable, Ali. A lot of our sensory systems are finely tuned to feel awe in response to nature. So when we hear running water, we feel awe. When we smell the fragrances of cedar trees and flowers, we feel awe. Big stars and skies. And I think the thinking is like, that kind of helps us locate in a place that is safe and has a lot of resources for us to survive, right? Is that sense of beauty and awe about nature? You know, and talking about awe so much, people are like, what do I do? And I'm like,

• 30:27Alie Ward?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Listen to a piece of music that brings you tears and get outdoors and look at a flower or look at a tree or look at the sunset, wherever you are, and find awe and make it a practice. And nature is so good for us, so good for us.

• 30:44Alie Ward?

  I love that you have even a graphic representation of that in the book where you had people draw a picture of themselves in nature versus not in nature. And they were tiny in the, in what they drew in nature, which is great.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I love that study. Yeah. You know, and then ordinarily, like you take, you're in the center and you're this big thing. And, and then in our, the other version of that is in the All Walks study where if you just build in a little mystery to your daily walk. You start to feel more awe and we ask people to take photos of themselves. And the self starts to drift off to the side of the photo. Cause you're not aware of yourself. You're like, what's behind me? That's cool.

• 31:29Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, this is such a self-focused era, you know, the sociologists have documented this. Instagram, take pictures of the self and it's good to get away from it.

• 31:39Alie Ward?

  I was so heartened reading your book because I would think for someone who's studied happiness for so long, that you started out very chill and happy and literally in the intro, you're like, I'm pretty anxious.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:51Alie Ward?

  You were, you know, and pretty anxious and somewhat neurotic person, which

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:54Alie Ward?

  relatable. So it's really heartening to see your research. And again, Dr. Keltner has a staggering body of research. Authored or co-authored nearly 300 publications, written several books, including on the topics of living a meaningful life and what that means psychologically and on power struggles. And then his book, awe, the new science of everyday wonder and how it can transform your life is a really great read or listen if you're an audiobook person. It's a great science and really beautifully written. And the book is so, so good. It's not even a topic that I would have thought could be studied.

• 32:37Alie Ward?

  And I don't think it was very studied, you know, initially. It's just a beautiful, like how much wonder can really change our lives. Any final tips on getting in that one minute moment a day?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, thanks for bringing that up because, you know, I wrote this book after my brother passed away, who was my companion in awe and I was in deep grief. And it never leaves you and awe really helped me and I was a really anxious OCD.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Panic in my thirties, like lots of panic attacks. Even though I look like a stone surfer, but I don't surf and I don't smoke marijuana. So, you know, so awe really, at most stages of my life, really helped me in profound ways. And over the years, I realized like I've built up an awe practice. And so what I tell people is for a few minutes a day, take those wonders of life and give yourself a little space. You could be driving, could be quietly sitting somewhere, put away your phone,

• 33:52Speaker 01

  just calm and take a deep breath and listen to a piece of music that really means a lot to you. You know, oh, I gotta listen to that song by the Beatles or whatever it is for me. It's Brian Eno and take a moment or two and find some places nearby you where you can go and experience nature. I'm lucky in Berkeley, it can be a stream, redwood tree. We had a teacher in the Bronx who took her kids to the one patch of lawn in the, in her area of the Bronx. And they sat and took it in. So find a little bit of nature, maybe it's the sunset. I love, you know, I'm really obsessed with moral beauty now and just think of someone who inspires you, you know, and just like dwell on what they look like, what their eyes are like. How do they speak to you, right?

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Who's somebody for you, Ali, that inspires you?

• 34:40Alie Ward?

  Oh, my gosh, you know, I know that it's a trite, but I will say my husband is one of the most creative and big hearted and justice oriented little weirdos. He's a weird guy and he's very himself. And he, he writes poetry that he performs. And I'm just like, how did that come out of him?

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:05Alie Ward?

  How is that just there?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  And that's exactly the inquiry, which is like, just think of people like in your present moment, like a colleague or my mom, you know, or, oh my God, I had this autistic student who did so much. Just, just focus on that. That's really good for you. You know, I love visual, the visual world and millions of people go to museums, pick a painting and just look at it slowly. The book has guidance. The Greater Good Science Center has guidance. It's easy to find and find five minutes a week to do that kind of thing.

• 35:39Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm. Thank you so much for talking to me. You have been someone I have been so nervous and so excited to chat with for so, so long. And your book is astounding. It's so wonderful. Again, it's such a privilege and an honor to talk to you. You're doing some of the coolest work out there. I'm a big fan.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Thank you. Means a lot. I really appreciate you saying that. So seriously.

• 36:03Alie Ward?

  So thank you so, so much to Dr. Dacher Keltner for taking the time to chat. I'm never going to forget it. It was worth the wait. And we're going to link his book on Awe in the show notes as well as his website. And we'll have more links up at our website. We are at Aologies on Instagram and Blue Sky. I'm at Ali Ward with one L on both. We have kid-friendly episodes called Smallologies, available wherever you get podcasts. Thank you, Erin Talbott, for adminning the Aologies Podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwire does the website. The timeless Noelle Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale takes care of vast responsibilities as managing director and breathtaking editors who snip out my breaths. Our Jake Chaffee and lead

• 36:46Alie Ward?

  editor Mercedes Maitland. Additional editing by the incomparable Jarrett Sleeper, who is also my husband. He is a world wonder. Cool nude. Nick Thorburn made the theme music. And if you stick around till the end, you know, I tell you a secret. And this week there's two. One is that the ending stinger, this week is like a little musical recap from the episode with accompanying tunes composed by our own Jake Chaffee, who is J E C Music on YouTube. If you look him up, Jake makes these really delicate and haunting and sweet compositions. And I know for a while he was live streaming it, but you can find him at J E C music.com. So that's J E C music.com. He did not ask me to.

• 37:30Alie Ward?

  Shout him out and I have a feeling he's going to be blushing, but his music is beautiful. Also, second secret was that I was working on this episode today. I was eating a spring roll at a nearby restaurant, but I really only wanted half the order because I also got a huge salad and spring rolls don't keep very well. And I was like, I wish I could have gotten a half order. And I sat there with my laptop at a noodle restaurant and a guy walked past the window when we made eye contact and it was an old friend, my friend Dave. And we waved and I waved him in, even though honestly I had a zit and bleary eyes from yet another wildfire here in LA. But whatever. And he came in and he sat down and I was like, you want some of these spring rolls? And he's like, hell yeah. We split and ordered our spring rolls. We caught up for like a good 15

• 38:14Alie Ward?

  minutes before he had to jam for work. I honestly would have kept my head down because I was a mess and I was working, but I remembered this conversation with Dacher and how we just don't sit and talk and catch up as much anymore. And it was really lovely. So there's that. And then on the walk home, I saw a cute little lizard and I was like, hey, man, all those lizards, where are they sleeping right now? There's like asleep lizards. It's nighttime. There's just a, I think of all the lizards sleeping right now. That's, that's awe I'm feeling. Okay. Bye bye.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  For a few minutes a day, take those wonders of life and give yourself a little space. Could be quietly sitting somewhere, put away your phone, just calm and take a deep breath and listen to a piece of music that really means a lot to you. Find some places nearby you where you can go and experience nature. Maybe it's the sunset. Think of someone who inspires you, you know, just like dwell on what they look like, what their eyes are like, how do they speak to you?

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Who's somebody for you?

• 39:55Alie Ward?

  Wasn't that lovely music? Again, thanks to Jake for that. And thanks to Verbo for sponsoring today's special bonus episode. It was really quite a thrill to make. Awe is just one of those things that reminds us like, oh, being alive is pretty neat. And it reminds us how powerful sharing an experience can be with strangers at a concert or watching the sunset, or with the people that you love the most. And when you're traveling with people you care about, those moments tend to stick even more. And with all the things we're told to prioritize these days, prioritizing awe seems like a pretty solid choice. And getting out of your four walls if you can.

• 40:38Alie Ward?

  And Verbo helps make those trips easier by giving you a reliable place to stay together. Plus, support if anything doesn't go as planned with Verbo care and 24/7 customer service. The people on your trip are full of surprises, but not your Verbo. So book your next trip on the Verbo app. Being safer on the road starts with the person behind the wheel. That's Mazda's philosophy when designing every vehicle. Their proactive safety features help keep you more aware, connected, and engaged during every drive, which means your car does more than help protect you. It makes you a safer driver, which helps protect everyone. That's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand.

• 41:24Alie Ward?

  To learn more, visit MazdaUSA.com. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services.

• 41:30Speaker 02

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• 41:48Speaker 03

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