Strigiformology (OWLS) Part 1 with R.J. Gutiérrez

OWLS. FINALLY. In no particular order: what’s up with their eyes, legs, hoots, feathers, silent flight, nests, folklore, necks, barfs, conservation status, and omens? Go take a walk or sit on a porch in the dusk and make friends with Rocky. Dr. R. J. “Rocky” Gutiérrez is a celebrated researcher, Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota, a legend in the owl world, and simply one of the loveliest ologists. He’ll take us on a trip next to a river, scrambling up some trees, over rocky terrain and through the forest to learn why owls are so magnetic. Yeah, I called owls the best bird. Not backing down.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

  How's your ponytail looking? Maybe like a little thinner than it used to? We've talked about this in our menopause episode. At some point, it's bound to happen to all of us. So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair, start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com/ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Trips are full of unexpected discoveries. Maybe you see a sea slug, or you find out that your friend still sleeps with a stuffed animal.

• 0:44Alie Ward?

  But when it comes to your vacation rental, there should not be any surprises. When you book a Verbo vacation rental, if what you expect isn't what you get, Verbo Care has you covered. If something's broken or just not right, Verbo will work to make it right. Plus, you get 24/7 live human support with every booking. Grab your stuffy, we're going on vacay. So book today on the Verbo app. If you know you Verbo. Terms apply. See verbo.com/trust for details.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  At Lowe's, this Veterans Day and every day, military members, veterans, and their spouses get automatic Milo's Rewards Silver Status benefits. Plus, 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honor and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more and verify now at lowe's.com/military. 10% discount can't be combined with another offer. Exclusions, terms, and conditions apply. Loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Details at lowe's.com/terms. Subject to change.

• 1:40Alie Ward?

  Oh, hey, it's the guy who runs the local board game night, hoping someone shows up at the pizza place to game. Ally Ward. Boy, Hootie, I've wanted to cover this one forever. And it was all a matter of finding the right owl person. And we did it. We got him. I have so much to say about this guest that I'm going to list it in bullet points. Okay, so they got their PhD at the University of California, Berkeley. They have studied owls for over four decades. Their papers have been cited nearly 14,000 times. I noticed that in their papers, they thank their wife, Katie. And they seem genuinely in love. They came highly recommended by several other ologists, including Dr. Gavin Jones of the FIRE Ecology episode. I had to beg this owl guest to be on this episode because they kept asking if they were right for it. I did this by

• 2:24Alie Ward?

  taking a phone call as I was driving through the desert and I pulled over at a dusty turnout to chat with them for like 30 minutes about why I was already obsessed with them and their work. Before we recorded, this guest sent me some pictures and owl videos, but there was nothing attached to the email. And then I got another one five minutes later with the subject line, "Oops," and the email just said, "I got distracted by critters outside my window, so I forgot to attach the files. When we finally did log on to chat, they were wearing a sweater with owls on it. Uh oh, I love them, and you will too. It's all the fieldwork stories and passion of a Merlin Tuttle bat guy with the soothing, mellow vibe of the Biology Moss guest,

• 3:05Alie Ward?

  Dr. Robin Wall Kimmerer." This one, it's an instant classic. We will get to that in just a sec, but first, thank you so much to all the patrons who sent in their questions. You too can support the show on Patreon for a mere dollar a month. Thank you to everyone out there wearing Ologies merch from ologiesmerch.com. Also, if you need shorter, kid-friendly episodes that are classroom safe, we have them in their own feed for you called Smologies, S-M-O-L-O-G-I-E-S. You can get them for free by subscribing to Smologies wherever you get podcasts. Also, thanks to everyone who leaves a review for us, which help the show so much. I read them all. And this week, Unfolded Shoe wrote one that said, "The other night I had a dream, a dream in which I was in a lecture hall being taught by Professor Ali Ward and Assistant Professor Jack Black. I don't know if you two will ever teach higher education together, but needless

• 3:50Alie Ward?

  to say, this is my favorite podcast." Unfolded Shoe, I don't know if that will happen, but I am open to it. Also, we're doing our first ever live show. Not Jack Black, he won't be there, but I will. It's on Monday, November 17th at the Bell House in Brooklyn, but we are sold out. But that's good news because it means that there might be a bigger tour coming soon. So we're going to pilot it on the 17th. We're going to see how it goes. Okay, so let's get into strigiform. Straight up, it comes from the Latin for owl, which comes from the Greek.

• 4:20Alie Ward?

  For owl, so cozy up in a blankie. Sit on the porch in the dusk to catch some owl parenting facts. Why they have pokey things on their heads. Facts about eyes that left me unable to think about anything else. Owl huts, roosts, nests, perches. Why so silent in the night? If you should get an owl box in your yard. A high profile case in the news involving owls. How researchers study and check up on them. How to boost their numbers where they need it. And what happens when there are too many owls? Also, how one walk can change your life with this part one of a two part episode with researcher, professor, and Gordon Gullian endowed chair emeritus at the University of Minnesota, owl experts, and one of the loveliest ologists,

• 5:06Alie Ward?

  strygaformologist Dr. R.J. Gutierrez.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  My real name is Ralph Joseph Gutierrez, but everybody calls me Rocky. I've been called Rocky since before I was born, apparently.

• 5:37Alie Ward?

  Who decided that?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  My mother, actually. My mother said that when she was pregnant with me, that if it was a girl, she would name her Rehenya. And if it was a boy, she'd name him Ralph and call him Rocky.

• 5:54Alie Ward?

  Was it a rocky pregnancy?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know. She made that decision way beforehand. At least that's the family theory, anyway. Or legend, I should say, legend.

• 6:06Alie Ward?

  Well, it suits you. I feel like I think about you scrambling up rocky surfaces in the woods, looking at nature. So it kind of works, right?

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  I love this sweater, too. Was this a sweater that you found? Or was this something that was made for you?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  No, my wife made this sweater. She knitted it. It was the first one she made. She's made a bunch of sweaters for me beforehand, but she designed this and then knitted the spotted owls, because that's the primary owl I work on. Now, I liked it so much, ever since then, she's made a new sweater for me every year of some species of owl I've worked with or some other species that we've both seen someplace in the world. And she's pretty amazing, because she designs the whole thing on a piece of graph paper and then spends a good part of the year knitting it. They're actually works of art, so.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Katie sounds amazing. If she weren't already married, I would ask her to marry me. She sounds like the best.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  And now the spotted owl. This is your primary study species.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Take me back a little bit to when owls started to sort of capture your attention. How far back does it go? Were you a birder? Or did you start looking at other things outside? And then an owl flew over your head. What happened?

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Well, I'm glad you asked that question. I was hoping that you would, because this is a story I've never told anyone. I never shared this with anyone, including my wife. And one time I went fishing with two of my cousins when I was about, it must have been somewhere between eight and 10 years old. And we went to the Rio Grande River, adjacent to Taos, New Mexico.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  So this is near the 800-feet-deep Rio Grande Gorge. Think of steep, craggy rocks and sagebrush and the arid American Southwest plain, rimmed by mountains.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  And on the west is this huge black chasm going through this plain. And that's what we call the Rio Grande Box. So we drove to the box, and then we would hike down into it. And we got down there about evening time. My two cousins says, while you wait here, we're going to go find a campsite. And I'm just a little kid, you know, I mean, I'm, I don't know, you know, one thing from the other. And I'm sitting there and it got darker and darker and darker. And I'm starting to get more and more afraid and scared. And I'm shaking. And all of a sudden, it was dark then, by then, but not a full moon. So it was, it was quite a dark night, not a pitch

• 8:55Speaker 02

  black night, but definitely really dark. And I looked up and I saw a great horned owl. I could see the ears and the outline of the thing. I couldn't make out the definition. And I went, wow, you know, that was really interesting. And then its mate flew in and sat next to it. So then I started thinking, well, I can actually see these things. And it's dark. And at that time, I didn't realize I had a very high nighttime visual acuity. And so I just then, you know, followed the riverbank and finally found them, you know, jawing it up around a campfire. And I don't know what they were thinking. They were just gonna leave me there all night. Oh.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  So years later, I was in the army, 17 years old, going through combat training, and they put me on guard duty out in the middle of the bush. And I'm sitting there by myself, and I'm getting more and more spooked because it's darker and darker and darker. And they would play tricks on you. They'd sneak up and, you know, if they caught you, then you, you know, you get demerits or whatever, you know, they yell at you. And so I was getting all freaked out. And then I started thinking, so wait a second, I could see those owls. And I could see walking along the creek. I said, there's no one gonna sneak

• 10:19Speaker 02

  up on me. I said, I can see better than anybody. And then that's when I made this big connection with the ability to see at night and the owls, and what made me really gravitate towards owls. And so thereafter,

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Whenever I had a chance, I would spend time looking for owls in college. I even would find, say, a great horned owl nest. And then I'd go in the evening after classes and just sit there and watch them. You know, at a distance, so I didn't bother them. Eventually, I was, um, had my first faculty position at a Ivy League school back east. And a paper came out in a journal about the relationship between spotted owls and old growth forests.

• 11:05Alie Ward?

  And this late 1970s paper, Spotted Owl Abundance in Young vs. Old Growth Forests, Oregon, was published in the Wildlife Society Bulletin, and it was co-authored by Rocky's future colleagues. And it begins by addressing that preliminary studies indicate that harvest of mature forests in Oregon and elsewhere may be causing the spotted owl to decline in numbers. And as a result, it says, there is considerable interest in the habitat requirements of this owl. Whether spotted owls can exist in even aged second growth forests created by intensive timber management is of particular interest. So more on how the spotted owls are doing in a bit. But Rocky headed west after reading this paper

• 11:47Alie Ward?

  to the forests of Humboldt State University to teach and to start up more research with some grad students.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  And my very first graduate student wanted to study spotted owls. And his name was David Solis. And David was, was a Vietnam vet. And actually, many of my early students and assistants were vets. And I, I was very partial to Vietnam vets for obvious reasons. So I thought at the time, I says, you know, David, I said, this spotted owl could be a really big deal. This is, we're talking 1979.

• 12:19Alie Ward?

  Oh, my God.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  When it wasn't a big deal.

• 12:21Alie Ward?

  Because now, 45 years later, the spotted owl ecology is a very big deal. And research began to show this steep decline of spotted owls in the Pacific Northwestern United States. And as a result, these new restrictions on logging were imposed to save the old growth forests and maintain the ecology. Loggers. Did not enjoy this. And apparently, they hung effigies of dead spotted owls in sawmills. They slapped bumper stickers on their trucks that read, "I like spotted owls. Fried." And "Kill a spotted owl. Save a logger." The issue of the spotted owl conservation is drama, and it has been for decades. And from what I've been reading, it's really politically charged.

• 13:06Alie Ward?

  We're going to get more into the standing of how many of these owls are left in the wild, what the status is, and what ecologists think we should do about it. Again, lots of drama, but the short of it is, it's a big deal. And when you look at the authors on so many spotted owl papers, you'll see R.J. Gutierrez. About 75% of his grad students of the year have worked on owls. But from our first conversation on the phone, as I was parked on the side of the road, asking him to be on, he has always been really humble and gracious, and credits others for their work.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  I've just been blessed by having just a wonderful group of students who have contributed so much to science and conservation of the spotted owl.

• 13:48Alie Ward?

  And people, I know this makes you uncomfortable, but people sing your praises as the owl guy so much, where you're named in books about owls. People talk about you, the legend of R.J. Gutierrez, of like, the owl guy, to the point where I was chasing you down like you were prey, hoping you would be on this episode. I'm so excited. And of course, the praise is not something that he accepts easily. It can be hard to see yourself as others do, even if you have great vision. Do your pupils just get bigger than other people's? Were you a night owl yourself? Or have you always been like an evening person?

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Actually, I'm a morning person, which is sort of surprising. Usually, I go to sleep at 9:00 or 9:30 and get up at 5:00 and go swimming. But when I work on owls, of course, you just adjust. I suppose that is, one of my characteristics is adaptability. So whatever the situation calls for, I adapt to it. And I think that's something I learned both from, you know, working as a kid and also being in the military, in the army, is that you have to adapt and you have to respond to situations as they arise. Because I'm definitely not a night person. I prefer to go to sleep early.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Uh, when it came to owls being a study species of yours, was there a moment when you, you really realized like owls are, and I'll couch this, but owls might be better than all the other birds?

• 15:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I said it.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  Do you have a soft spot for them particularly? And what is it about them that you love?

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Well, actually, my doctoral dissertation was on quail, mountain quail. No one had ever done a doctoral dissertation on mountain quail. And when I told my major professor, Starker Leopold at Berkeley, that I was going to work on mountain quail, pushed his chair back from his, from his desk and he opened the drawer and he pulled out a little string and he said, here, here's a rope. Go hang yourself.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  He said, nobody's ever been able to work on mountain quail. He says, so forget about it. And I said, you don't say you can't do something to me. That's just like raving a red flag in front of a bull. And so I took it on as a challenge and I did complete the first PhD on, on mountain quail. And likewise with owls, they are a challenge to work on because they're nocturnal and they're often difficult to find. But with a spotted owl, fortunately, we have many people have worked on them. Eric Forzeman, a good colleague of mine from Oregon, he was the first one that really studied spotted owls and learned a great deal about them

• 16:38Speaker 02

  that set the, sort of the foundation for the rest of us to, to work on these birds. And so I'm not really a legend in that respect because there's many other people that worked on spotted owls that probably know a lot more about spotted owls than I do. But regardless, that's one of the things that I find in working with species is I, I really enjoy challenges in something that is demanding and hard and especially if the habitat is rough, you know? And mountain quail and spotted owls both are in, usually in steep mountains. And, you know, you've got to be in really good physical condition to go find them and so forth.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  So this is something I really enjoy. It's the challenge of, of these species, the galliforms as well as, as the owls.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  Just a heads up, a galliform is like a chicken, a turkey, a quail.

• 17:36Alie Ward?

  The kind of awkward loping around the ground birds, the landfowl. Galliform comes from the Latin for rooster. And we do have a two-part episode on chickens that we will link in the show notes. You're welcome. Also, Rocky's longtime colleague, Dr. Eric Forsman, is also an accomplished strigiformeologist, and we'll touch on him and rodents in a bit. And when it comes to strigiformes, right?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Strigiformes.

• 18:04Alie Ward?

  Strigiformes. What makes a strigiforme a strigiforme? What makes an owl an owl?

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Well, one way to think about this is, think about the owl as an illusion. So if we peel back layers of this illusion, we get an idea of what the owl is like. So let's look at their overall appearance. So when you look at an owl, they have a big, round head. And then they have big eyes. And so that sort of attracts people to owls, at least in North America and Europe.

• 18:37Alie Ward?

  So not every culture is, like me, a simp for owls. Some folks, especially in different parts of the world, are strigiforme-phobes. So more on that in part two.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  And so you have this big head with big, round eyes. But in fact, their skull is like a triangle. So if you put your fingers together and make a triangle, that's what their skull actually looks like.

• 19:00Alie Ward?

  Oh. Okay, so let's say your thumbs are touching, right? You've got a triangle. The short side, your thumbs, are the eyes. And then your pointer fingers would be the beak. So owls are not pug dogs. They are like golden doodles with a dog snout under a bunch of fluff.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  And so it's an illusion that their heads are actually round. Their whole beak and everything, it's just this big triangle. And what you're seeing is a combination of the eyes, which are actually in tubes.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  So they're elongated eyes that are held in place rigidly by something called a scleral ring. You can think of it as like a bunch of shingles, bony shingles, and they provide a rigid structure for its eyes. And then around that is this huge facial discs that owls have. You can see that on all the owls that they have this mass of feathers that makes the owl appear as if it has this big rounded head, when it actually it's triangular when you consider the beak together.

• 20:13Alie Ward?

  And are their eyes tubular shaped, or are they in tubes?

• 20:18Speaker 02

  They're tubular shaped.

• 20:19Alie Ward?

  What?

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:22Alie Ward?

  Like a sausage eye?

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're sort of strange. Of course, this varies by the species of owls, but most of them have that elongated shape. And there are actually some mammals that have that too, like bush babies and some of these nocturnal primates have these elongated eyeballs.

• 20:40Alie Ward?

  So owls, big puffy feathery face and tube eyes, like big fat worms, held in place by a bony plated pipe called a scleral ring.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  And now they have this disproportionately large eyes and a big head. I mean, their eyes are so big, like a great horned owl is 5% of its body weight.

• 21:03Alie Ward?

  What?

• 21:04Speaker 02

  In a human, for example, it's like .003% of the body weight.

• 21:09Alie Ward?

  Wow.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  So they have a lot of investment in their eyes. And in those eyes, because they're held in place, they cannot move their eyeballs. Like, we can sit there straight ahead and watch people out of the corner of our eye, and we have great peripheral vision. Owls can't do that. Their eyes are fixed in their head, and as a consequence, they have to move their heads to see where they're going. Now, owls are different than most other birds in that most other birds have their eyes on the sides of their head, so they have good peripheral vision, but not good binocular vision.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  And binocular vision is very important for depth perception. And owls have about a 70 degree field of binocular vision.

• 21:59Alie Ward?

  Humans, by contrast, have nearly 180 degree binocular vision. But this adaptation, it's not just a badge of predator versus prey. Bunch of plant eaters who have to swing through trees have two forward facing eyes because it helps them judge the distance before leaping between branches and getting smacked in the face. But Rocky, because he's awesome, emailed me later wanting to impart more details about their vision. He's the best. He wrote, "Owls see way better in the dark than us and other birds because at the end of those sausage eyes," he says, "they have a higher proportion of rods, which are the light sensitive structures, relative to the cones, which are the color sensitive structures

• 22:43Alie Ward?

  than other birds or humans." In fact, he continues, "In the retina, there is something called the foveal pit, which is a depression in the retina, and that's highly sensitive. It's densely packed with only rods, the light sensitive structures." In addition, he says, "Many owls have this reflective layer behind the retina. It's called a tapetum lucidum, and it gathers even more light into the rods." And he says, "This is why if you shine a flashlight at some animals, their eyes glow. It's light reflecting off that tapetum lucidum layer." So now we know this. And if you have a soft spot for creatures of the evening, you can enjoy our episodes about lemurs, raccoons, possums. We even have a whole eye episode.

• 23:28Alie Ward?

  But yeah, owls, great binocular vision via those tubes and pipes. But as much as an owl would like to, they can't give a lot of side eye.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  It's not as wide as ours because their other eyes are fixed, but it still gives them the ability to focus in and determine the distance a prey is, for example. And so because they have this fixed eye and binocular visions, what they have to do is turn their head to see where a sound is coming from. But one of the adaptations they have evolved to compensate for this restricted eye is that they can rotate their head, they can swivel their head 270 degrees. So they can turn it all around. When you think about twisting your head, well, we just can't do that. I can barely get my head 40, 45 degrees around.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  But when they twist it, the foramen or foramina, that the arteries of the neck going up into the brain, they run through these holes in the vertebrae. And they are actually quite wide. So that when they twist, the artery doesn't get constricted.

• 24:40Alie Ward?

  Oh, wow.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Because if we weren't able to do that somehow, we'd probably constrict our carotid arteries and we'd pass out.

• 24:47Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  But they don't do that. They just switch all the way around. And the other thing is owls have 14 vertebrae in their neck, whereas we only have seven. They have a very long neck. And again, that's an illusion because if you look at, they look like they have a little short necks, but actually they have a really long neck. And it's all because of this facial disc is covering things up and the feathers on their shoulders and so forth. And the facial disc itself is unique in that they can actually control these feathers. And it's like us putting our hands behind our ears and cupping them.

• 25:23Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  And we do that when we want to hear something far away and we put our hands behind our ears and cup them.

• 25:28Alie Ward?

  Okay, so looking under the hood, again, owls can spin their necks like an exorcism because they have twice as many neck bones as us. And under all those feathers, they only have two fewer neck bones than a duck. Their skellies, I looked them up, they look like a completely different bird. You'd be like, what bird is this? You would not guess an owl. They also have, again, bigger holes for their arteries. And those disc, flat faces that we love are not structural so much as tweaked through their feather adjustments. I know you're saying the legs, the legs, the legs. We've got to talk about their weird little frog legs. We're going to get to that in part two, I promise.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  And also on their ear flaps. They have these little flaps on their ear that can control the opening and closing of the ears, but they also have feathers behind them that also can direct sound into their ears.

• 26:19Alie Ward?

  So owls are hunting machines, but why do some of them have so much style in the head region?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  And then another thing about them is an illusion. Sometimes you see these little, what we call owl ears, sticking up on great horned owls and screeching.

• 26:35Alie Ward?

  Yes. What are those?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Well, we think they're probably signals of some kind, a signaling device that owls that are primarily crepuscular or that hunt in the twilight hours of dawn and dusk. That's a term we call crepuscular. And we think that they might be signals between the pair, but they are not, have anything to do with the ears.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  So what do you know about the ear?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  The ears are actually big, long slits on the side of their heads. And the ears themselves are offset. So the ear on the right hand side is higher than the one on the left. And their head is proportionally much larger than most birds. And as a consequence, when the sound hits those ears, this is sort of mind boggling, but the difference in time between the sound hitting one ear and the other ear is 30 milliseconds. And they can actually tell the difference of the direction of sound based on that teeny, teeny, teeny, you know, millions of seconds sound.

• 27:46Alie Ward?

  To illustrate, here are two beeps that are 30 milliseconds apart.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  And these are all these adjustments that the owls have made. And so when you look at them, it looks like they don't have ears, but they actually do have them, but they're just these narrow slits hidden behind feathers. So there's, the owl is sort of enigmatic in the way it appears to you, but when you, as we have just done, pull those things apart, you start to see what an owl is really like, which is a bird that has evolved to conquer the night.

• 28:22Alie Ward?

  Are all owls nocturnal or crepuscular? Or are there daytime owls?

• 28:27Speaker 02

  There are daytime owls. There are these crepuscular evening and morning hunting owls. But the majority of owls are nocturnal. So like burrowing owls and short-eared owls, they're primarily diurnal. And screech owls, great horned owls, spend quite a bit of their time in the evening, in early morning hours, hunting. But most of the rest of the owls are nocturnal.

• 28:55Alie Ward?

  You know, when I first moved to my neighborhood, well, first I had lived in an apartment in a busy part of LA for a while. But when I moved to this house, we had much more nature. And I found a feather and I looked at it closely and I realized it was an owl feather because it had little, sort of a serrated edge. And I freaked out so excited. And sure enough, we have a pair of great horned owls. And you can hear the woo, woo, woo, woo at night, all at night. It's so great. I love them. We see them all the time. But can you explain a little bit about how they're so quiet? Because one will fly right by me. You can't hear a sound. And do all owls have that or only some?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Versus all owls have silent flight. Now, the ones that don't are the ones that hunt fish, like in the genus Catoopa and some boobos, like the Blackerson's fish owl, the world's largest owl.

• 29:53Alie Ward?

  So these are 10-pound chunkers. And if you are thirsty for more info, I would like to direct you toward the wonderful book by another strigiformeologist titled Owls of the Eastern Ice: A Quest to Find and Save the World's Largest Owl by Dr. Jonathan C. Slatt, who was a grad student of Rocky's. And one reason I was so thrilled to get Rocky on this show is that Jonathan wrote about doing fieldwork with him. So Jonathan writes about some fieldwork that he was doing in Asia. And he writes that his guide on the trip had not met Rocky before, but his past experiences with foreigners had taught him that most were doughy, pampered, and unable to bear the discomfort of the insect swarm. The cat holes and the insect swarms at cat holes that awaited them.

• 30:37Alie Ward?

  Jonathan continues, I assured the guide that Rocky took a perverse pleasure in suffering of all kinds and viewed discomfort as an adversary best ignored. Still doubts lingered until they met when Rocky's rough hands and KT's ropey physique showed him they were a pair accustomed to an honest life outdoors. Rocky, in his 60s, resembled a snowy owl, short with large eyes under a mop of white hair. KT was about Rocky's age, slight, quiet, and highly observant. So yes, you can pick up Owls of the Eastern Ice, A Quest to Find and Save the World's Largest Owl by Jonathan Slatt. We'll link it on our website.

• 31:17Alie Ward?

  You can learn all about these largest owls, the endangered Blackeston's Fish Owl, which is allowed to brag about its nearly two-meter wingspan. Wings as wide as your dad is tall. Not me, not your internet dad, but like a real man dad.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  There's no premium on being silent because the fish can't hear you. You know, they drop down from either from a perch above the water onto there or like the Blackeston's Fish Owl will oftentimes walk along the edge of the shore or jump on rocks and then jump into the pool and grab the fish. Getting back to your observation, which is wonderful, actually. Thank you. Owls have a couple of adaptations. One is that, as you noted, they have these serrated edges and that's caused by the loss of these little hooks that are called barbules that most birds have that actually keep the

• 32:15Speaker 02

  feather rags locked together. And they've lost that. And so people have thought that that gives the owls a silent flight, but there's some hypotheses that. It actually has evolved to reduce the turbulence

• 32:34Alie Ward?

  Oh.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  behind the wing. And then they have another adaptation with these velvety structures over the tops of their flight feathers that in fact is the one that's reducing the sound that they're making.

• 32:49Alie Ward?

  And for more on this, you can please enjoy the 2017 paper, Features of Owl Wings That Promote Silent Flight, which cites plenty of other research into owl stealth. And it notes that the large wings of these birds contribute to the noise reduction by allowing slow flight. And the serrations on the leading edge of the wing and that velvet-like surface have an effect on noise reduction, and they also boost aerodynamic performance. And it notes that the fringes at the inner feather veins, as well as the fringed trailing edge of the wing, reduce noise. So it's a combo of those two factors. And like everything that is cool in nature, of course, engineers are like, how can we do that, too? But it might take like around 60 million years to get it dialed.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Those two adaptations, coupled with the way they actually approach a prey, or in your case, they would fly by you to go another place. They often launch themselves and then glide. They don't do the typical bird flapping and moving. They will, of course, when they're flying distances. But when they're hunting or attacking something, they come in without flapping. So the turbulence is being reduced, their sound is being reduced, and they're restricting their movements of their wings. So they're virtually silent in flight. I know a lot of people say, well, I heard an owl, you know, fly by me. No, you didn't hear him.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  What you heard was when they landed on the branch, and the branch is going up and down. But that's what you heard. When you think about it, these things can go right past you, and you will not hear them.

• 34:27Alie Ward?

  And are they using that to sneak up on prey? Are they able, with their giant, huge sausage eyes, to see rodents scurrying and other crepuscular or nocturnal animals, and they're just swooping down and picking them up? Is that how a lot of owls hunt?

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Well, we call them mostly perch and pounce predators.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  When I've watched them attack prey, you'll see them look very intently at something. Of course, we often use mice to get them to come down where we can catch them. It's basically like watching them hunt. It's artificial though, because we're putting some food out. But they'll often look intently and sometimes bob their head to focus in on what it is. And once they realize, they just launch themselves, come in and then extend their talons and grab them. But they can also relocate. So if they hear something and they think they see it, and maybe they can't really focus on it because of the obstruction of vegetation or whatever,

• 35:30Speaker 02

  they'll fly to a different perch and then get another view of it. And once they're confident that they can catch this thing, they make the attack. We've noticed in doing these studies feeding mice to owls that some of them seem to prefer taking prey off the ground, others from branches or the size of the trees. So we call this phenomenon when individuals get a search image for a particular type of prey.

• 36:03Speaker 05

  What do you want? What do you want?

• 36:05Speaker 02

  And now, of course, owls, when you look at their diet, they're eating lots of things. But some of them seem to be very adept at or prefer to take animals off of trees or off of bushes or off the ground. They have their own preferences for how they might go about doing this.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  And I got to ask, what's that field work like? Do you have a pouch full of live mice? Are they dead mice? Are you tossing them in a field? Are you sticking a dead mouse on a tree? How do you figure that out?

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Well, what we do is usually use live mice to feed to them because we have had lures, that little toy store mouse that we pull along. But they seem to know the difference between something that's real and not real. And as a result, we, well, Eric figured this out, putting live mice out there and then they'll come down to catch it. And over time, we've developed different sorts of techniques. First, some nets, mist nets, and then Eric developed a capture pole, and then we, we made noose poles and various devices to catch them, pan traps, whatnot. And now it turns out the easiest thing to do is just catch them by hand. What? How?

• 37:17Speaker 02

  You put the mouse down, they come for the mouse and just snatch them by the foot. Oh, are they so mad at you? You know, it's really interesting that when you catch an owl, they often will bill click.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  They pop their bill together, and that's sort of an agitation display and maybe even a threat display as well. So, one of the things that we realized, if you watch a pair of owls together, and this is one of the things that makes them so adorable to people, is that they often roost right next to each other, and then they'll alloprin.

• 37:58Speaker 05

  What does that mean?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  So, that means that they prin each other. So, they'll get up there and they'll prin their face. And, and we thought, you know, what if we did that? You know, we just prin their little faces and stuff like that, you know, because they're just bill snapping and struggling and trying to get away, and then just go like that, and you just start alloprining their face, and pretty soon they just relax. They just think, ah, this feels so good. That's exactly what they're doing. Because you're simulating, well, we think it's, alloprining serves a couple of functions. One is reinforcement of the pair bond between the pair, and also its feather maintenance. Because an owl can't really maintain its

• 38:42Speaker 02

  feathers very well on its face. They can scratch and so forth, but when they get the prining their face, picks up the feathers and so forth.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  Are they mating for life, most owls? Or is it totally dependent on the species?

• 38:55Alie Ward?

  Ooh, a little cliffhanger. Stay tuned until after the break to find out about owl romance. But first, let's donate to a cause that Rocky loves, which is the International Owl Center, which is in Houston, but Houston, Minnesota. And their mission is to make the world a better place for owls through education and research. And they also have an International Owl Festival in March. Rocky and John Strat were speakers last year. And they have a bunch of resources on their site about owls, bird rehabbers, even a World Owl Hall of Fame, which brings public recognition to the owls and humans that have done great things to make this world a better place for owls. You can find out more at internationalowlcenter.org. So I'll toast to that and also donate to that. Thank you to sponsors of the show.

• 39:41Alie Ward?

  How's your ponytail looking? Maybe like a little thinner than it used to? We've talked about this in our menopause episode. At some point, it's bound to happen to all of us. So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair, start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. If you haven't heard me gushing about Squarespace for years, it's an all-in-one website platform. Whether you're trying to grow a business you have

• 40:26Alie Ward?

  or if you're just a baby business getting started, it has everything you need. That's where I secured my domain name. It helped me build a professional site. I can update it so easily. I've been using Squarespace since before ologies existed. After procrastinating for years, I literally built my website in one evening. They have templates. They have flexible editing tools. Squarespace also makes it easy to share your work. You can book clients. You can get paid. They have built-in tools for scheduling and invoicing and email all in one place. Whenever someone I know needs a website, whether they're a scientist that needs to put their work up or someone who's just starting a business, I'm like, dude, Squarespace. So head to squarespace.com/ologies for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch,

• 41:10Alie Ward?

  use offer code OLOGIES to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You can do it.

• 41:19Alie Ward?

  Listen, sometimes you get out of your routine. That happened to me recently when I went out of town and I realized I forgot my Ritual Essential for Women 18+. It's a multi that I've been taking for years. And guess who landed in another country without them? Me. Didn't feel right. They contain nine key nutrients, two delayed-release capsules designed for optimal absorption. But Ritual, why do I love them so much? They have a team of scientists. They poured over thousands of studies to figure out what are common gaps that people need in their diet, but they don't actually consume. It's also designed to be gentle on the stomach. You can take it with or without food, which I love. Plus, I like that it looks like a tiny lava lamp. I tell you that every time, but it has its beads and oil. And it tastes like mint, easy down the hatch. I usually take them in the morning.

• 42:03Alie Ward?

  And the reason why I've stuck with Ritual for so many years is because my schedule's all over the place. Sometimes I'm eating breakfast. Sometimes I'm running through an airport with one shoe. So instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com/ologies. That's ritual.com/ologies for 25% off your first month.

• 42:27Speaker 06

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, remagu pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur.

• 43:09Speaker 06

  Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTC or visit Nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 43:27Speaker 07

  With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 43:54Speaker 03

  Okay, so I had just asked Rocky, are they mating for life, most owls? Or is it totally dependent on the species?

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Well, for most species, we really don't know. But it appears that most species maintain a long-term pair bond. I wouldn't say mate for life because they do, in fact, divorce.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 44:12Speaker 05

  Look at me, son. It's not your fault.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  They'll leave a mate and go to another mate. It very well might be that if they're failing to nest, one mate will leave and try to find another nest. That still needs to be investigated more fully. But one of the few that we know does not mate annually seems to find new mates is a burrowing owl. They will seek out new mates each year.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  What are those nests like? You know, we put up an owl box before we realized that mostly barn owls like those. And we already had some great horned. We were good to go on the owl. So now the great horned owls sit on top of the owl box and they do their pounce and perch from there. But what kind of nests do a lot of these owls have? Are they finding a hole in a tree? Are they building them out of sticks? Are they finding another abandoned nest? I know pigeons suck at nesting because they don't really need to be good at it if they're on a cliff. But what about owls?

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, owls don't build their own nests.

• 45:19Alie Ward?

  Oh.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Your observation is correct. But they will seek several different kinds of nests. As you noted, they will find and use old abandoned raptor nests, nests of ravens. They will sometimes nest in the crotch of a tree where there's accumulated debris. They will nest in witch's brooms. They'll nest in big cavities. If a tree is broken off the top like in old growth forests, a lot of times older trees get weakened by disease or fungus and a windstorm will break the top of the tree. And then, you know, 10 or 15 years of rotting, there's a shallow depression there and they will nest inside that depression.

• 46:04Alie Ward?

  Sometimes I nest inside a depression, sometimes. Also, I thought Rocky was just being cute, but a witch's broom is a real thing. I did not know this. And when a tree has a pathogen or some wonky growth, it can grow this clot of weird little curly branches. They look like a bird's nest, so much so that owls see it with their sausage eyes and they say, hell yeah, I live there now.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  And they don't put any kind of material. They just, whatever's there, they just lay their eggs on it. And of course, great horned owls and some other owls will nest in cliffs, just like these pigeons will. But the pigeons usually build a little flimsy nest. They're not great nest builders, but they do build a nest, whereas the owls don't. And in your, your situation, as you mentioned it, I was thinking, well, maybe the size of the hole in the box is not big enough for a great horned owl.

• 46:56Alie Ward?

  Hmm.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  That's a possibility.

• 46:58Alie Ward?

  Typically, will you have owls that overlap in range? Or are they like, one owl, one pair of owls is enough for one place? Or they'll, will they start eating each other if they're different species?

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Well, you might be talking about two different things, but let's take these in, in order. So if you're talking about the same species, there can be adjacency in pairs and some small overlap in the home range. But they have, inside that home range is an area that is defended and we call that the territory. And that's an exclusive zone. So they will exclude any other owl pair from coming in into that territory if they know they're there. And that's one of the purposes of hooting is to announce the territory and to tell people, stay out of here. This is my place. Leave. Get out.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  But then there's the other question about different species of owls. And we have done research on this and we find that owls that are syntopic, that is occurring in the very same habitat, can only coexist if they're eating different foods or their different body sizes, which suggests that there's something going on with the trophic level or the way they forage. So they have to be big enough difference in size for them to coexist in the same habitat. But you know, a lot of times the little owls are taking their chance being in the habitat of the bigger ones because they'll get eaten.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna say, like little Cornish game hens to them. Should people put up owl boxes if someone wants to have an owl in their yard?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  What's the best way to do it?

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, again, it depends on where one lives, but very often in suburban areas, if there are sufficient trees, there's often small owls around like pygmy owls or screechy owls and you can entice them to live there. And very often, holes are a limiting factor for these small owls. So putting up nest boxes, you very well might attract an owl. And of course, if you live out in the country, then there's all kinds of owls that you might be able to attract. And therefore you can put larger boxes, medium sized boxes and so forth. But you have to be careful about this because you put

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Owls in proximity that likely eat each other, you might be doing something counterproductive. So be careful about what you're trying to attract.

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Should you mount the box to a tree? Or is it better on a freestanding pole?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Probably anywhere on a tree. But if you put it on a pole or on a tree, it's often helpful to place some kind of a barrier that a raccoon or other animal can't go up the pole to get it.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Because if a raccoon can climb up a pole or a tree and reach its little paw inside of it and grab an owlet for dinner, it'll do that.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  Oh, poor little baby owls. Are owls good parents?

• 50:14Speaker 02

  They are wonderful parents.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  And this is one thing about owls. They have a strong division of labor between the male and the female. So typically, the male owl is smaller than the female. There's lots of hypotheses about why there's this reverse sexual dimorphism. The male's being smaller and the female's being larger. Be that as it may, the male is primarily the provider of food. They go out and forage and catch prey, bring it back to the female who's sitting on the nest. And the female, basically, after she's laid the egg, she incubates him by herself and primarily broods the young. And the male brings her food.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Short king.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  She only leaves the nest to defecate and to do feather maintenance and the like, or come out and receive prey. Zach Perry, one of my colleagues that I work with at the University of Wisconsin, he had a graduate student, Sienna Zulu. And Sienna would climb up these trees and put a night camera on the nest and would determine what the prey was. And in this particular video, you first see a male owl coming in and landing and depositing a wood rat. And then the female coming from somewhere else and going into the nest. And then you see the little baby pop up its head. But normally what happens is the male will arrive at the nest with a prey item,

• 51:44Speaker 02

  and he'll give a soft call or a hoot, and the female will come out of the nest, and then he'll fly over to her and she takes it from him, and then she goes back in. And because the young are too small to really handle the prey, she'll tear it apart and feed him bits. And the things that they can't eat, like the skulls, she just pops them down.

• 52:05Alie Ward?

  A delivery for mom, breakfast in bed, fresh, dead rodents. When you've got fuzzy, tiny, screaming owlets every day is Mother's Day. What co-parenting?

• 52:16Speaker 02

  So, one time, I had a project leader who was leading one of the projects in Southern California in the San Bernardino Mountains, Bill LaHaye. And he called me up and he says, "I want to show you this nest." He said, "This female has not moved off the nest for like two weeks." And I said, "That's pretty weird." Because oftentimes, when you feed the male a mouse to try to determine whether or not they have a nest, because the male will take the mouse to the nest, you chase them through the forest while they're trying to the nest, and that's how we define the nest. Anyway, this female wasn't doing that. So, we went out and looked at it, and you could see the female's head,

• 52:57Speaker 02

  just the top of her head in this broken top tree, and her tail sticking up. And we walked around and around, looked at this, looked at this. And I says, "You know, you ought to climb this adjacent tree and just look in there and see what's going on." So, Bill, being an expert tree climber, he scrambles up the tree and looks in, and he says, "I think she's dead." I says, "Yeah." So, he came back down and he put some climbing spurs on and went up this broken top tree. And he reaches in there, and this female had died, and the egg was in her breast. So, in other words, she starved to death, we think, while waiting for the thing.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  And she was so tenacious to, well, this is what we're speculating. She didn't want to give up incubating that egg. And so, if it was a bad year and the male couldn't bring her nest, she just hung on as long as she could, and then it was too late. The alternative, of course, is she's got some disease or something happened to her. But, you know, it didn't look like anything other than that she had starved to death because she was emaciated. So it was really, it was sort of sad, but it, but it gets to your point about being, you know, good parents. I mean, they are tenacious parents. They will take care of the young.

• 54:12Alie Ward?

  So as we mentioned in the luteinology episode, which was a devastating expose on otter behavior, a mother otter might be on the brink of death because she's nursing offspring who are old enough to forage on their own and they just keep going back to the teat. And this is none of my business, but I'm pissed at those otter children. Also, next week, we're going to talk more about spotted owl ecology and which owls in the world are the most threatened. But how can you know right now if you are neighbors with an owl?

• 54:39Speaker 03

  Do you know you've got an owl nest around if you see pellets in a certain area? And also, why do they, unlike all these other birds, have to kind of barf up a clot of lint and bones?

• 54:53Speaker 02

  If you find pellets, that does not necessarily mean that there's an owl nest nearby because an owl could be nesting somewhere else and roosting there and depositing pellets at the roost.

• 55:08Alie Ward?

  And a nest, side note, is where they worm and they feed them babies, but a roost can be a nearby spot that they like to nap during the day, just generally chill.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  It usually means that the nest is somewhere in proximity, but not necessarily all that close. And the other thing is about these pellets, as you mentioned, so I started thinking about, what do you call it when you study pellets, you know?

• 55:34Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  Because, see, there's scatology, right? Where there's a study of feces. You know, and I started trying to figure this out, reading books and looking things up and couldn't find anything. Well, you know, and I guess you could call it barfology.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Where they're barfing these pellets up.

• 55:53Speaker 07

  Yes, from me.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  But let me back it up one second here is that pellets are cast by over 300 species of birds.

• 56:00Alie Ward?

  Oh.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  So it's not restricted to owls. So lots and lots of species do this, but the owls seem to form the biggest mass of ones. And it turns out that the avian stomach has two parts. And one is a glandular part like our stomach, they call it proventriculus. And then the other part is the ventriculus, which is what we think of as the gizzard. So you have like this real stomach and then this like grinding organ called the gizzard. And all the soft parts get sort of digested and broken down in this stomach part and then move over to the gizzard where it's more finely ground up. Well, in the case of the owl, it turns

• 56:43Speaker 02

  out that the pH of their stomach acids is higher than a raptor, for example. So a raptor's like a pH of 1.8 or something like that, and an owl's like 2.5.

• 56:58Alie Ward?

  And higher pH, remember, means it's a weaker acid. Confusing, I know.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  But that's enough of a difference that they cannot digest these big bones, the hair and all that sort of stuff. Whereas many of the typical raptors, they digest a lot of the bones. They still cast pellets and stuff, but they'll digest some of the small bones. The owls don't do that. And so as the soft parts are being digested and moved to the gizzard, the other undigestible parts that can't be broken down are pushed to the top of the stomach and sort of compacted there. And then, once the digestion process is completed, it has formed this little mat that looks like a little turd, you know, but depending

• 57:45Speaker 02

  on the size of the owl, you know, the bigger the owl, the bigger the pellet. And then they upchuck them. They barf them up.

• 57:52Speaker 07

  Delicious.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  People have speculated that this is a constant, the time it takes them to make this pellet and regurgitate it is probably related to the size of the meal that they get in there. And I actually think that in some circumstances, if their pellet has already formed. And you offer them a prey. I've seen them actually look at the prey and then start upchucking a pellet, then they come down and get the one that you just put it out.

• 58:21Alie Ward?

  They're like, let me make a little room.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  But they can't form it immediately. They're basically saying, well, you know, let's get their show on the road here.

• 58:33Alie Ward?

  Can I ask you some questions from listeners? Are you doing okay? I know I've kept you.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  No, I've got all the time you want.

• 58:39Alie Ward?

  Okay, amazing. I love it. So, ask visionary people blurry questions. And thank you so much again to R.J. Rocky Gutierrez for being on, not just this week, but next week as well. We'll have part two. We have links in the show notes to find out more about Rocky. And of course, we post more research on our website. This will be at alieward.com/ologies/strogaformology. Next week, we are back with all of your juicy owl questions like parliaments, barns, bard owls, if you should hoot at your owl friends, omens, folklore, what not to put in your yard, a homicide case that has baffled detectives and ornithologists alike, and so much more. So stay tuned and come back for

• 59:20Alie Ward?

  that part two next week. And we are at Ologies on Instagram and Blue Sky. I'm at @Alieward on both. Smologies are shorter, kid-friendly episodes, available wherever you find podcasts. Just search Smologies, S-M-O-L-O-G-I-E-S. Ologies merch has totes and shirts and hats at ologiesmerch.com. Thank you to patrons at patreon.com/ologies for supporting the show. They also get first dibs on tickets for live events, which is another perk for a dollar a month if you join. Thank you also to Erin Talbert, who admins the Ologies Podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwire does the website. Nocturnal and diurnal scheduling producer is Noelle Dilworth. Our eagle-eyed managing director is Susan Hale. The pair of editors, sharing the branch, is Jake Chaffey.

• 1:00:05Alie Ward?

  And lead editor, Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn hooted out the theme music. And if you stick around until the very end. You know, I might tell you a secret. I will tell you a secret, whether you want to or not. And this week, it's that whenever I have to transfer files via an S D card from my recording device onto my laptop, I have to use a dongle, right? Because life isn't hard enough in 2025. But little secret, I usually just rip the dongle out without properly hitting the eject icon. And I know one day, this is going to ruin my life, but I've gotten away with it thus far. So feel free to either soothe my soul and tell me it's fine, or you can scare me straight on this one. I appreciate it in advance.

• 1:00:48Alie Ward?

  Okay, more Owls, more Rocky next week. It's so good. Okay. Bye bye.

• 1:01:12Speaker 07

  The Owls are beautiful.

• 1:01:15Speaker 06

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac O D T. Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac O D T. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain,

• 1:02:00Speaker 06

  or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTC or visit Nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 1:02:15Speaker 04

  The biggest homeowner mistakes. Do it yourself, lumberjack. Better leave it to the pros. Doing your own electrical work. The results could be shocking. But letting just anyone replace your windows? Biggest mistake ever. Be a happy homeowner and leave your window replacement to Renewal by Anderson. For a limited time, buy one window or door and get the second 40% off. Plus $200 off your entire purchase with a minimum of $4 and special financing. Visit renewalbyandersonhome.com today.