Lutrinology (OTTERS) Encore with Chris J. Law

YOU’RE NOT READY. But it’s time. Otters. Sea otters. River otters. Big beefy otters. Tiny otters. Giant river otters. Otters chasing you down the street. Dr. Chris J. Law, a professional Lutrinologist, shares tales about coastal vs. inland otters, otter terrorism, magical teeth, lustrous fur, rock pockets, kelp naps, otter terrorism, cautionary motherhood, toxic relationships, hand holding and why otters make you trust them, despite the fact that you should perhaps not trust an otter.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

  How's your ponytail looking? Maybe like a little thinner than it used to? We've talked about this in our menopause episode. At some point, it's bound to happen to all of us. So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair, start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F O R H E R S dot com slash ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Being safer on the road starts with the person behind the wheel. That's Mazda's philosophy when designing every vehicle.

• 0:42Alie Ward?

  Their proactive safety features help keep you more aware, connected, and engaged during every drive, which means your car does more than help protect you. It makes you a safer driver, which helps protect everyone. That's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. To learn more, visit mazdausa.com. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Your body has a lot going on. Sleep, stress, recovery. You would be surprised how connected it all is. Aura Ring tracks more than 50 metrics from your finger, and the Aura app brings that information together to help you see patterns across your sleep, and stress, activity, and more.

• 1:26Alie Ward?

  So you can start connecting the dots and figure out what works for you. Learn more at aura ring dot com. Wear your best life with Aura. All right, just a little up top hello. This is an encore of a very special episode to me, and I am under the summer weather with some sort of tiny little plague. But this is a great episode. Wow. Also, stick around to the very, very end of the episode for a new, fresh secret about why this one means so much to me. Also, I slept 13 hours last night and then took a nap tonight. So the hell, I don't know. Okay, onward. Oh, hey. It's a lone AirPod under the bench at a bus stop. Alley-oar.

• 2:10Alie Ward?

  Back with fresh horrors for you. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, though. But straight up, if kids are listening with you, think about high-tailing it right now to a Smologies episode instead. They're in the main podcast feed. They're up at alleyware.com/smologies, which is linked in the show notes. Smologies are short and classroom safe. This one is not. It is not. Are we good? Good. Okay. Let's get to otters. First off, thank you, listener Isaiah Newbins, who suggested this guest in particular after hearing a review I read from AWIX from the urology episode. And AWIX dreamed that luterology was an episode. And your dreams are coming true right now, all of our dreams. Also, thank you just to everyone for leaving and writing reviews. They matter so much. I read every single one. And this week, we

• 2:54Alie Ward?

  hit a really big lifelong goal of mine because of your reviews and subscribing. And Ologies was the number one science podcast on Apple. It's been five years. We hit number one, people. Let's do some air horns and a tiny imperceptible butt dance.

• 3:12Alie Ward?

  Good job. Huge, giant goal. I can't believe it. Thank you so much. Thanks also to everyone on Patreon.com/ologies for supporting the show. Each week, though, for reviews, I pick a fresh one to prove that I see them all. And this week, thank you to Sherm Worm, who wrote, "Come for the science facts, stay for the feels." And also, thank you, future ologist Mackenzie King, who described the show as "a massage to my brain while drinking espresso." Okay, get into it. Luterology. It's a word. It's been cited in the literature one time, but that counts. J.C. Von Vopelkline, a prominent scholar of crustaceans, coined it while describing a study about sea otters that was so well-written, it was "an interesting read," quote, "even for the non-lutronologist."

• 3:56Alie Ward?

  So lutera, side note, comes from a mix of old, old words for water, hence otter, water, water. And then the L, they think, was maybe picked up from lupus, like a water wolf, or ludo, meaning to play. It's anyone's guess. But otters are in the same mustelid family as weasels, and wolverines, and minks, and also badgers. And they are full of must, and musk, and mischief. And you're about to get absolutely destroyed by otter facts. Your small talk will never recover. Otters will be all you think about for the remainder of your life. Also, with that, I have to issue a trigger and a content warning. Without spoiling too much, otters are not not violent. And many of their behaviors would result in criminal charges

• 4:41Alie Ward?

  if water weasels had a justice system. But in other ways, they're better at relationships than we are. Now, this otter expert studied environmental systems for undergrad and got his PhD in ecology and evolutionary biology at UC Santa Cruz, and is now doing a postdoc at the University of Washington in connection with the American Museum of Natural History and the University of Texas. So buckle up, boy howdy, hot damn. Get ready for coastal versus inland otters, skull morphology that tricks our brains, teeth, fur, beach pastries, rock pockets, the perils of selfless motherhood, kelp naps, the nostalgia of otter droppings, molar crunching, and of course, otter handholding,

• 5:25Alie Ward?

  with scientist and certified otter expert, Lutrinologist Dr. Chris Law.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  My name is Chris Law, and I go by he/him.

• 5:53Alie Ward?

  Cool, and doctor, correct?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:56Alie Ward?

  Dr. Law.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Dr. Chris Law.

• 5:58Alie Ward?

  We had a suggestion for this ology a few weeks ago. Someone had a dream also that there was an otters episode, and they woke up and looked for it, and then they realized that they just dreamt it up. And so that is why we... Hustle to find you because someone had a need for an otter episode. So can you tell me how you came to be a weasel wizard?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I essentially started my science career with polycheat worms during my undergrad at UC San Diego.

• 6:30Alie Ward?

  These are bristly segmented marine worms, which are almost as cute as otters, if you're into worms.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  And then as I was applying grad school, I met with my future PhD advisor Rita Mehta at UC Santa Cruz, and we're just chatting about potential research projects. And she studies moray eels. So I was just assuming I was going to be working on some fish project, which is fine because my plan is to go up the food chain. But then we were just chatting a little bit and she just brought up the idea, why don't you just work on sea otters? Because we're in Santa Cruz and they're just all over the place. And obviously I was like, yeah, of course.

• 7:11Alie Ward?

  So Chris has lived up and down the sunny Pacific coast in San Diego and Santa Cruz and Orange County. And like nearly every Californian, he was familiar with sea otters. So the suggestion to work on them was like, hell yes, jackpot, jackpotter.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  I've seen them before and like they're adorable little teddy bears that you just want to hug and who doesn't want to work on them? So like the moment she said that, I kind of just jumped on that bandwagon and started doing some research into what potential projects I could do. And since they eat all these hard shell prey items, one of the questions we really wanted to look at is just how are they actually breaking into those hard items? So I kind of just got started on that. So basically in undergrad, I come from like a phylogenetics background and evolutionary background. So I'm kind of halfway through working with sea otters or starting to look into sea otters. I just got this idea, I have to build a phylogenetic tree of all of the, not only otters, but the

• 8:09Speaker 01

  weasels, marins, wolverine, all those guys. So I just started building that phylogenetic tree and then just learning a bunch of natural history by reading about this group. Like I had first day even know that weasels were related to otters. So learned more about weasels and kind of went this down this rabbit hole to want to study why they so elongate.

• 8:27Alie Ward?

  Yeah, they are like the dachshunds of the sea. Why are they so? Long and squiggly.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  The idea is that it came around fifteen or so million years ago. That's during the mid-Masseyian climate transition when temperatures drastically decreased and this expansion of grasslands occurred, which then led to the diversification of rodents. So then this body elongation is hypothesized to have allowed those weasel-like creatures to go underground to chase all those rodents in these tight crevices and whatnot.

• 9:00Alie Ward?

  Wow, I had no idea that that is why bodies were long. I mean, is that what dachshunds are doing? Aren't they kind of like rodent hole dwellers?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's the idea behind their kind of artificial selection, right? Where people really are trying to breed these elongate-looking dogs so they can go in these tight crevices or burrows to try to get those rodents during hunting.

• 9:24Alie Ward?

  Are they, are they just chock full of vertebrae? Do they have more vertebrae or do they just have longer vertebrae than other animals?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  That is a fascinating question. So like if you think of snakes or eels, they become more elongate by just simply adding more vertebrae, which makes sense, right? But then with mammals, we're actually constrained to the number of vertebrae that we have. So in carnivores, which are like dogs, bears, cats, they have about twenty thoracic lumbar vertebrae and that number rarely, rarely changes. So it can't become elongate by just adding additional vertebrae. They have to actually evolve relatively longer vertebrae.

• 10:05Alie Ward?

  I was always wondering that about like my short-ish poodle dog versus a dachshund or like a weasel, those long, almost wormy bodies just have longer backbones each individually?

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So they have the exact same number of vertebrae. It's just some of the breeds might have relatively longer ones. Although no one, I don't think anybody has really looked into that. So it would be really interesting to see the skeletal elements of what actually contributes to those different body plans in these different breeds.

• 10:38Alie Ward?

  So yes, every time you see a dog that you would like to pet, know that it has 30 main vertebrae and then between 5 to 23 bonus tail bones. And corgis, side note, they're born with tails. Did you know that? Big, bushy, fox tails? Google it. Same with Australian shepherds and other herding dogs. But they tend to get the chop by breeders because when they were actually used for herding, no one wanted a stomped-on tail. And I read one 2018 study titled "C7 vertebra homo aortic transformation in domestic dogs: Are Pug Dogs Breaking Mammalian Evolutionary Constraints?", which found that 25% of pugs have one fewer vertebra than all other breeds. And I like to think that there's some be-robed man in the sky.

• 11:23Alie Ward?

  And God took a vertebra from a snorting, farting pug dog and made humans with it. Now, how many do you have? Well, you were probably born with 33, but you now have around 24. What happened?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Dad, I think you ate the bones.

• 11:37Alie Ward?

  No, they just kind of fused together at the bottom, like a bag of Raisinettes you left in a hot car. Only it's your sacral spine and your coccyx. For more on this, see the osteology episode. But enough about us. Let's talk about gazing in wonder at otters. Now, Chris also happens to make really gorgeous science art, charting the evolution of these mammals in this beautiful, colorful detail. And where in the tree of life are they? Because I feel like I think of an otter, and it seems like a cat, an aquatic cat, but also kind of like an upside-down dog. What's happening?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's in the order Carnivora. And Carnivora is split into two different main groups. The feliforms, which are like your cats. And then the other group are the caniforms, which are your dogs, bears, pinupeds, and the musteloids, which are the raccoons, weasels, skunks, otters, all those guys. So basically, in a caniforms, it goes dogs, bears, pinupeds, then skunks, the red panda, raccoons, and then the mustelids, which includes that really species-rich group that includes the otters, the weasels, the wolverine, the martins, the honey badger, the European badger. There's like over... 60 species in Mustelidae.

• 12:55Alie Ward?

  Do you dream about this stuff? Because I know you make art about phylogenetic trees. Does your brain, is it always trying to kind of construct visuals of this?

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's why I love like learning how to make phylogenetic trees. Because I think it's just such a cool way to just like showcase the evolutionary history of like physically the tree of life. And with the carnivores in general, like it's such a diverse group and like so many different types of body plans and different sizes and shapes. So it's really cool to be able to visualize all that and like how this one species came from this group of species, or how these two closely related species are from the same part of the tree, but then look so very different. So yeah, that's part of the fun parts of being an evolutionary biologist.

• 13:37Alie Ward?

  Are you an organized person in general?

• 13:39Speaker 01

  I pretend to be. It comes and goes.

• 13:42Alie Ward?

  Now, question. What is it like to be an otterologist? Do you get to touch them? Do you get to hold them? Do you get to pet their fur? Do you get to touch a pelt? Do you get to hold their hand? Do they give you clams? What is your life like?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, I wish I could do all of that. The closest I've done is touched one. It is honestly the softest thing, at least a sea otter. It's the softest thing I've ever felt. I totally understood or understand why people back in the day really wanted to hunt them just because that pelt, like you just want to rub your face on them because it's just so soft and I'm sure it's also pretty warm. In terms of doing all the other stuff, in terms of like wanting to hold their hands, I don't think I would ever want to do that with a wild otter because they will try to eat your face or like bite your face if they could. They're pure evil.

• 14:30Alie Ward?

  They are pure evil, says Dr. Chris Law, a professional Lutrinologist. You knew this was coming, didn't you? Okay, I'm glad we jumped right into that because I feel like somehow I became informed a few years ago that otters, the cutest things ever, also absolute bastards, evil, sexual predators. They will steal your stuff and sell it at a pawn shop. Like they're the worst. Give us a dark side. How fucked up are otters?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, yeah, so basically, everything you said is true. Probably the worst thing is that they can also be dog killers. Um, so apparently, there are a couple incidents where somebody's dog was just like barking at one of this, one of these otters along like the dock or something. And I guess that otter just got fed up, went up to it and just apparently dragged it down. What? I believe it might have drowned it, but again, this is just their word of mouth. So who knows?

• 15:32Alie Ward?

  Okay, it's September 2021. Hurricane Ida is ruining lives. The pandemic rages on via the Delta variant and Squid Game premieres. Yes, folks, that was less than a year ago.

• 15:50Alie Ward?

  But meanwhile, in Alaska, otters are terrorizing Anchorage citizens, literally chasing and sinking teeth into a nine-year-old boy. And this is not the first time. According to one news source, quote, "Officials are currently investigating whether the incidents all involve the same group of otters." And it's not just in the last frontier, it's also in the Sunshine State.

• 16:14Speaker 03

  Cell phone video of a charging otter.

• 16:16Speaker 04

  This is a picture of the alleged otter sent to us by Greg Butler. Butler says the otter attacked his dog Chester.

• 16:23Speaker 05

  Chester was bitten on the nose after an otter charged through his screened-in porch. Two of his human neighbors were bitten on their heels and hands.

• 16:32Speaker 06

  This otter comes flying out of the lake, just starts to chase my bike. Actually, just went right after my bike.

• 16:38Alie Ward?

  So while rare, these incidents are not isolated. And in communities all over the globe, fearful locals demand of officials. You ought to get that otter out of here.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  I've heard this a couple of times, and this has happened a couple of times. So it's kind of gnarly.

• 16:55Alie Ward?

  I mean, how big are they? Because I feel like river otters are bigger, right? How big is a sea otter? And also, what's the difference between a river otter and a sea otter?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Oh, so actually, a sea otter is much bigger than a North American river otter. But in California, they don't get that big. Those are more Alaskan otters. But they are still much bigger than a little river otter.

• 17:15Alie Ward?

  And just to back up a little bit, there are 13 species of otter globally. The US has two species, the little river otter, about the same weight as a pug, and then the sea otters, which off California can be up to 90 pounds, like a rottweiler. Although, the beefier Alaskan variety can top 100 libbies. Think like a Bernese mountain dog, floating around gnawing on a crab. Now, there are also Eurasian otters, about 20 pounds, dachshund size, and some medium-sized African otters, South American giant river otters, which are somewhere between an American river otter and a sea otter in size. And then, there's the teeny chihuahua-sized Asian otters. But yes, in the US, I was surprised that the river otters were smaller

• 18:00Alie Ward?

  and that the sea otters were these hefty clam-eating sea beasts. They're big, and they're not cuddly.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Definitely can be pretty vicious if you get too close to them.

• 18:10Alie Ward?

  How did some evolve to hang out in freshwater and others seawater? Or does it even matter? Because they're breathing air, right?

• 18:19Speaker 02

  I'm amazed we don't all have fins and gills.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so actually, all other otters are primarily freshwater. So it's the sea otter that's unique. It's that oddball that evolved from all the other otters, like about 8 to 10 million years ago. And it went on, basically, its own evolutionary trajectory. So everything it does, everything about their physiology, is very different compared to other river otters. And sea otters are primarily just found in the ocean, whereas river otters, especially like North American river otters and Eurasian otters, will actually go into the marine environment as well. So you can be in locations like in Washington, where there will be both river otters and sea otters.

• 19:00Alie Ward?

  Oh. Where are they sleeping? Do they go home at night?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Sea otters?

• 19:05Alie Ward?

  Either one. Like, do they sleep in the water? Or do they have like a cave that they hang out in on shore?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so river otters have dens that they hang out. I've never actually seen one, but yeah, presumably along the shore. But then sea otters actually just float in the water. And I'm sure you've heard stories of where they can, they'll wrap themselves in some kelp so they don't float away. And they can take a nap that way. They're relatively small marine mammals. They burn a lot of heat, so they have to sleep a lot to refuel. And you always see them like just taking a snooze to conserve some energy.

• 19:43Alie Ward?

  Do you think they hold hands in the wild? Or is that just a publicity video from a zoo?

• 19:50Speaker 01

  So I don't, I actually don't know because I had, I remember giving a presentation at this, I think, sea otter conference. And I had an image of that, you know, that image of two sea otters holding hands that was taken at one of the aquariums. Somebody gave me shit for it without correctly doing that. Because she said that they don't hold hands in the wild. But then, apparently a couple of weeks or months later, there's like some photos of wild otters holding hands. So I don't know.

• 20:22Alie Ward?

  So they have a good PR team. They're like, listen, TMZ is around the corner. We're gonna have to do something. Also, shout out to otter paparazzi Drew Wharton, the founder of seaotters.com, who in 2016 captured the first photo of otters doing this in the wild. Like 100% a celebrity couple holding hands, walking into Nobu to eat a bunch of raw seafood. Also, seaotters.com has live sea otter cams. If you would like to stare at them with like-minded people over the internet. What is the otterology community like? Are people really focused on conservation? Are they trying to figure out how to increase populations? Like, is there a big conservation effort around these guys?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, there's a huge effort out all the major aquariums. So like the Monterey Bay Aquarium in California, the Seattle Aquarium in Washington, I'm sure up in B.C. And Alaska also has great efforts. But the one I'm most familiar with are the ones down in Central Coast, California, where the Monterey Bay Aquarium, UC Santa Cruz, the U.S. Geological Survey, Fish and Wildlife, basically all of these organizations, they do all of this great outreach work and also a lot of work with the wild populations to make sure that the population is doing well, that individuals are healthy, and that, you know, all the possible things that could affect them are looked into.

• 21:43Alie Ward?

  How is their population, like the sea otters, for example? I feel like people are really rallying for the sea otters. Like, how is their population? Like, is it rebounding at all? Because we just did an episode on urchins and they were like, urchins are everywhere because sea otters are not.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I guess it's very different depending on what population of sea otters you're talking about. So that kelp to urchin to sea otter system is really describing the Alaskan populations pretty well. So that classic killer whales eating the sea otters, which then increases urchins, which then decreases kelp forest. But then in California, the system's a little bit different. The word of sea otter population is actually doing relatively stable. So I think there's about maybe 3,000 individuals in coastal California. I could be wrong on that. I have to check my numbers.

• 22:34Alie Ward?

  He's right.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  But basically, the idea is that they are kind of constrained between like point conception down south and half moon bay up north. And the reason why they can't expand is because they're being attacked by sharks up north and I guess fishermen are pushing them back up from the south. So they can't really expand and that why they're more like this carrying capacity where they're running out of food and the otter population can't really increase because of that.

• 23:02Alie Ward?

  So in California, they're stuck between a net and a shark place. And sea otters have been protected since the 1911 International Fur Seal Treaty after colonization of North America led to a dangerous decline. And I looked into it and yep, there's about 3,000 sea otters off the coast of the Pacific in California. And then 90% of the world's sea otters are off the coast of Alaska. There's about 25,000 of them there. Now, what about the river otters? It's estimated about 100,000 of North American river otters exist in the US and Canada, according to the banger of a paper, River Otter Status, Management, and Distribution in the United States: Evidence of Large-Scale Population Increase and Range

• 23:46Alie Ward?

  Expansion. So that's good. And of the world's 13 species, eight are threatened, including the Asian small-clawed otter, and the smooth-coated otter, and one called the hairy-nosed otter, which sounds cute, but it might be ferocious. All of these otters are like, we gotta make more otters. Also, I'm gonna warn you right now. This next part contains scenarios and language that might be literally triggering to victims of violence. Fucking otters, dude. Otters, fucking, dude. Sex lives of otters. What's going on? How are they making more otters? Is it a horror show?

• 24:24Speaker 01

  It basically is very, it's basically just [BLEEP].

• 24:29Alie Ward?

  Yeah, that's what I heard. That's what I heard. That's what I heard.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:32Alie Ward?

  It's not great, people. And I'm bleeping out a word that starts with R that means sexual assault. I know it can be hard for survivors to hear, so I'm just erring on the side of bleeping. Otters.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Um, so, so females have it rough because basically the moment they become sexually mature, they are either pregnant or have a baby with them or a pup with them until they literally exhaust to themselves to death. And it's called end lactation syndrome for the females, where they just basically just die because they're just so exhausted from, um, you know, putting so much energy towards their pups or towards milk production. And they also have to afford for their pups. And I'll say one thing, some of those pups are basically just like little parasites. I remember just watching a mom and a pup interact and this pup is almost bigger than the mom. And it was just still hanging out with mom. And

• 25:28Speaker 01

  the moment mom goes diving, the pup just like hangs out on the surface being all cute and happy. But then when the mom comes up with food, it just immediately swims to the mom and just starts like, you know, crying and begging for food. And again, this pup is almost bigger than a mom. Basically, pups usually stay with the mom for six months to up to a year. And so usually those slackers that are staying up for a year are usually just as big as a mom, still continually getting food from it.

• 25:57Alie Ward?

  How did evolution allow for that? How can, how can they sustain that? These poor ladies? And what are all the bachelors doing? Are they roving in packs of otters? Are there like packs of Bachelor River Otters just terrorizing?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Uh, so, so yeah, the evolution question, um, I think it's just because that pup will be like nice and fat and ready to kind of go hunt on its own. Because if it gets weaned too early, or it leaves mom too early, it's not going to be able to eat or get enough food and it's just going to die. And in that case, you're just going to lose your, you know, offspring and your genetic potential, right? If that happens. So evolutionarily, you know, there might be that reason for why. Why that pup really wants to extract all the nutrients from the mom before it can go off on its own and do its thing.

• 26:47Speaker 07

  No, no, no, no, no, I live with my mom. Yeah. You hungry? Hey, ma, can we get some meatloaf?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and in terms of the males, oh yeah, those guys don't do anything. Once, basically, the males are constantly circling females because once that pup leaves, it's gonna go, you know, reproduce to pass off its genes. And then once that happens, I mean, it's a, it's a terrifying show that, I mean, I'm happy to describe it, but.

• 27:15Alie Ward?

  Yo, give us the dirt. 1,000 content and trigger warnings.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  So normally, once, once that female is free, the male would get on it and it's essentially where the male will bite onto the female's nose. So often you'll see females with ripped noses and you can easily tell that's a female just because it's biting down on that nose and basically forcing itself on it to, to, you know, pass its, pass its genes.

• 27:45Alie Ward?

  Oh, my God.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  So, once that happens, the male just leaves and you'll probably never see the female ever again.

• 27:55Alie Ward?

  I like want to file for restraining orders on behalf of female otters. Like, this is not okay.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:02Alie Ward?

  It's not okay. Do they have any defenses? Like, do they have thicker fur or do they have like an extra claw anywhere or like a mace?

• 28:10Speaker 01

  I don't think so. And yeah, and also the females are much smaller than, than the males, so they're kinda defenseless in, in that regard.

• 28:19Alie Ward?

  Oh, my God, I want them to evolve a pepper spray gland. That's horrible, horrible. I want them to go on strike and live in their own happy island. I mean, like, get your own urchins.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  I know. If only they cared, otherwise, yeah, like I said, basically, that's the female life and they do this for maybe like 12, 15 years at the most in the wild where basically they just get pregnant. Couple times or like a lot of times during their lifetime and just reproduce and have pups and cycle just continues over and over again until they die from exhaustion. It's pretty nuts.

• 28:57Alie Ward?

  Oh, what about in captivity? We have no right, obviously, to enforce any of our like assumed ethics, sexual ethics on otters. But in captivity, are they like, hey, Dude, knock it off. Or do they just have to let nature be terrible?

• 29:15Speaker 01

  No, so usually in captivity, all the all the otters that you might see in aquariums are all females. Because a lot of these bigger aquariums, they actually use them as surrogates for wild otters that might be orphaned. So like if the mom in the wild dies, there's usually this pup that's wandering alone. And since they're threatened, at least in California, there's been a program to basically take these otters in. And especially if they're females, they'll have the surrogates raise them until they can re-release them in the wild when they're old enough.

• 29:46Alie Ward?

  Do they do that in the wild? Do they like penguins? Do they adopt orphaned otters in the wild? Or is that kind of unique to captivity?

• 29:55Speaker 01

  That's usually unique to captivity. I don't think I've ever heard any situation where a wild female would take in another stray pup. And usually if the stray pup is alone, it's not going to even survive for that long because it's basically defenseless and helpless. It can't even go catch its own food by itself. So it'll just die. So, so yeah, that's why, you know, like the honorary bear aquarium really relies on stranding networks or like volunteers or or people just, you know, observing or seeing a wild otter by its or like a little pup that somebody will call it in. And they'll send out a team to bring it in if they can't locate their mom or something like that.

• 30:31Alie Ward?

  And I mean, they're so cute, but now I'm like a little mad at the pups too. But why are they so cute? From a morphological, as someone who's studied their bone structure and how long noodle they are. How and why are they so cute?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I don't know why they are so cute, but how? It's because their skulls are very flat faces. So if you look at a, basically a newborn siara skull, it doesn't have that snout, pronounced snout yet. So it's very like a puppy dog face or like even like a newborn baby's face. And which I guess in our brains is hardwired to, you know, want to like take it and hold it and protect it and all that.

• 31:13Alie Ward?

  This side note is called baby schema. And it's when a juvenile organism has a large head and a round face and big eyes and smaller other features like ears and snout and mouth. And fun fact, Mickey Mouse has aged in reverse. His features have grown more baby like with each decade. And when adults retain some cute characteristics, our brains get confused and say, protect them at all costs, even if they are ghouls, like your tiny racist grandma or a sea otter.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  But in terms of why they might be like that in the wild, I have no idea like what, what kind of selective advantage that is. Maybe other animals think it's cute, or maybe their mom or other otter individuals might, might have some kind of selective pressure on it. But I have no idea.

• 32:03Alie Ward?

  I'm going to go back to school. I'm going to get a PhD in otters. They're so cute because their babies are such assholes that you would literally not feed them if they weren't so cute. Can I ask you some questions from listeners who know that you're coming on the show?

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:21Alie Ward?

  Okay, we're just going to lightning round. We're going to see how many we can get through. Is that cool?

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yep, sounds great.

• 32:26Alie Ward?

  But before we crack into your questions, we're going to toss some coins into an ocean of need. And Chris chose sea otter savvy, which increases awareness of protecting sea otters and encourages responsible viewing guidelines. And for more about what they do and check out volunteer opportunities, see seaottersavvy.org. And savvy has two Vs and not two As, and I always mess that up. But yes, a donation went to seaottersavvy.org. Thanks to sponsors. How's, how's your ponytail looking? Maybe like a little thinner than it used to. We've talked about this in our menopause episode. At some point, it's bound to happen to all of us. So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair,

• 33:07Alie Ward?

  start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F O R H E R S dot com slash ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. If you haven't heard me gushing about Squarespace for years, it's an all-in-one website platform. Whether you're trying to grow a business you have or if you're just a baby business getting started, it has everything you need. That's where I secured my domain name. It helped me build a professional site. I can update it so easily.

• 33:51Alie Ward?

  I've been using Squarespace since before ologies existed. After procrastinating for years, I literally built my website in one evening. They have templates. They have flexible editing tools. Squarespace also makes it easy to share your work. You can book clients. You can get paid. They have built-in tools for scheduling and invoicing and email all in one place. Whenever someone I know needs a website, whether they're a scientist that needs to put their work up or someone who's just starting a business, I'm like, dude, Squarespace. So head to Squarespace.com/ologies for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code OLOGIES to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You can do it. This episode of Ologies with Ali Ward is brought to you by Alloy Health. As you may know, we've talked a lot about estrogen

• 34:36Alie Ward?

  and hormones on this podcast. We have a three-part menopause episode. And there's something that nobody tells you. And this is that your skin changes that start in your 40s, they aren't just aging, they are hormonal, specifically estrogen loss. So estrogen naturally helps maintain collagen. It helps support elasticity, keeps your skin hydrated. And as it declines, your skin gets thinner and drier. So if your skin is feeling thin or dry or dull after 40, Alloy has prescription M for skincare. It's designed for perimenopause and beyond with convenient Virtual consultations and redelivery. So try M4 skincare from Aloe and see results in as little as eight weeks. Head to myalloy.com and use the code OLOGIES to get 25% off your first order.

• 35:19Alie Ward?

  So your menopause specialized doctor will help you build a skincare plan for your needs. Plus you get $0 unlimited messaging with your doctor. So head to M Y A L L O Y dot com and use code OLOGIES to get 20% off your first order. This code is valid on products only. These are compounded products, not subject to FDA approval.

• 35:42Alie Ward?

  Listen, sometimes you get out of your routine. That happened to me recently when I went out of town and I realized I forgot my Ritual, essential for women 18 plus. It's a multi that I've been taking for years. And guess who landed in another country without them? Me, didn't feel right. They contain nine key nutrients, two delayed release capsules designed for optimal absorption. But Ritual, why do I love them so much? They have a team of scientists, they poured over thousands of studies to figure out what are common gaps that people need in their diet, but they don't actually consume. It's also designed to be gentle on the stomach. You can take it with or without food, which I love. Plus, I like that it looks like a tiny lava lamp. I tell you that every time, but it has just beads and oil and it tastes like mint, easy down the hatch.

• 36:25Alie Ward?

  I usually take them in the morning and the reason why I've stuck with Ritual for so many years is because my schedule's all over the place. Sometimes I'm eating breakfast, sometimes I'm running through an airport with one shoe. So instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com slash OLOGIES. That's ritual.com slash OLOGIES for 25% off your first month. Every time I record a Quince ad, I'm like, look at me wearing head to toe Quince. I feel like this is enough of an ad, I can just stop here. But if you're like, huh, what is that? Quince sells clothes and shoes and bags, even stuff for your house that are classic, well-made and priced at 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they cut out the middleman. They work directly with ethical factories.

• 37:10Alie Ward?

  So you have luxury quality pieces without a luxury price tag. Perhaps this holiday season, do you know? What it feels like to get a cashmere sweater as a gift. I don't because I'm the one getting them for people and so can you. And they're affordable too. They also have 14 karat gold earrings, high quality down outerwear, cozy gloves made of cashmere, leather bags, they have great bedding, cookware luggage. So whether you're giving that to you or to someone else, you can give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or you can go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too.

• 37:53Alie Ward?

  And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, just let them know it was Ologies. It's the best way to support the show.

• 38:01Alie Ward?

  Okay, your questions, the first being from an actual patron of the show. Okay, first question from very important listener named Larry Ward, also known as Grand Pod around here, it's my dad. He wanted to know.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Do they eat kelp or do they just live in kelp?

• 38:21Alie Ward?

  That's a good question. I don't know. Do they eat kelp or do they just live in the kelp?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so otters don't eat the kelp. They just live in it. So they'll use it and wrap it, wrap themselves in it to, you know, stay in one place if they're sleeping. But they really rely on it indirectly just because it's such an important ecosystem in California where all their basically invertebrate prey that they're eating live off it or live under it or live on it. So it is really essential to them indirectly.

• 38:51Alie Ward?

  Ha, so it's like their apartment and the grocery store all at once.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, they rarely leave it just because it's a nice protected area. So it's harder for predators to find them.

• 39:02Alie Ward?

  Nice. Um, are they meat eaters only? They are carnivores, right? They typically just exist on just sushi buffet?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yep, they essentially eat your favorite types of seafood. So you've got your snails, your clams, your mussels, your abalone, your crabs and urchins. They also eat these kind of gross looking things called fat inkeeper worms. I don't know if you've ever seen pictures of them.

• 39:24Alie Ward?

  Yes, I have. They look like dicks. They look like disembodied horrible floopy dildos. Listen, okay, listen. These worms are also called penis fish. And I'm a fan of a phallus. Trust me on that. But you have to imagine them just poking up like whack a moles in the mud, just like slurp, slurp, slurp, boing. And when it's time to go potty, fat inkeeper worms squirt a steady liquid stream out of one end. And sometimes beaches are littered with these flaccid worms. They're beached by the thousands, like the most surreal dump truck accident you've ever seen. But they're also a delicacy and they're considered an aphrodisiac.

• 40:09Alie Ward?

  And like most things, it's really just set and setting. They're not as picturesque as maybe you would want them to be. But yeah, so fat inkeeper worms is what they're called?

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they'll eat those as well. But most of their prey are usually hard shell, probably because they contain more calories.

• 40:25Alie Ward?

  Aha, okay. That brings us to a question that everybody asked. Jamie McNeil, Jeku's first time question asker, Francesca Huggins, Lenny Ozilith, Jesse Hurlburt, Alicia Henning, Emma Shorewood, Mariah McGregor. Everyone wanted to know, in Jeku's words, is there a commonality between otters' favorite rocks? Like, do most otters use one particular kind of rock? Do they have a favorite rock? Jamie McNeil wants to know, how do they pick? A lot of people need to know what's up with their rocks.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  So that is a myth. They do not have a favorite rock.

• 40:59Alie Ward?

  What?

• 41:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:01Alie Ward?

  Flim flam, busted. What? Wow, okay.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  So often, these rocks are pretty big and they do have like a little, I guess you could call it a pocket, but it's just a flap of skin that they can keep prey in. But these rocks are usually too big to do that. So normally what they do is they come up with a rock and they're preyed. They put the rock on their belly, use it as an anvil and break things, eat the things. And they keep doing that. And basically, when they're done with the rock, they just do a little turn. The rock falls down and then they go on with their lives.

• 41:35Alie Ward?

  Wow.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  So they don't, they don't really have that favorite rock. I mean, they might reuse the rock if it's the only rock that's available because they are just right there and just decided to go back down and get more food and that rock happens to be there. So they might pick it up again to use it, but they're definitely not traveling around with it.

• 41:53Alie Ward?

  That's hilarious. I completely thought like they had a fanny pack and they're like, where's my good rock? Not this rock. What about, you know, from like a philosophical perspective, is that tool use or is it only a tool if you use the rock to smash the clams and not the clams to smash on the rock? You know what I mean?

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, no, we call it, we still call it as a tool use because it is still, you know, you're still putting an object on to your, you know, stomach and then actually using it as a, as a tool essentially to break something open. And I'll say that otters can also use other objects as tools. So sometimes they'll use another shell to break open in their shell. They'll use like bottles. They'll even use like docks in people's boats, which people might not like to break things open. So they'll use anything.

• 42:37Alie Ward?

  Now from using tools to being tools. I'm sorry. Daniel Schmanuel wants to know about their, as long as we're just, we're going to go back to them being terrible. Um, are the observations of sea otters assaulting sexually and killing baby seals, are those common or is that exaggerated?

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I don't know how common it is, but it definitely is to a point where there's multiple observations of them doing that. So the way males' territories work is that the dominant males have territories that, you know, exclude other males from their territories. Right? And in that kind of competition, there's always going to be losers and they're excluded from these territories. So if they can't have their own territory to mate with females, they just get, I guess frustrated and find their little baby seal to do its, you know, to basically. I guess, and that usually doesn't end well with the seal.

• 43:32Alie Ward?

  Wow. Sometimes it doesn't end well, even for the otters. And according to a hellscape of a study titled Patterns of Mortality in Southern Sea Otters, about 11% of dearly departed sea otters spotted by researchers died by mating trauma. 11%. And the violence is not just male to female. Within same species boy bottles, sea otters can also hit below the proverbial anthropomorphized belt line.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  One thing that's crazy about these male to male conflicts is that when they fight each other, they essentially go after each other's baculums, which in carnivores, there's a carnivores have a bone called a baculum in their penis. So they go after each back, each other's baculum to try to break it. So it's pretty brutal out there.

• 44:26Alie Ward?

  How did they learn how to be such assholes? Are most like North American mammals, are most animals this ferocious? And we're just surprised because they're pretty adorable?

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Honestly, I have no idea how that compares to other mammals groups. One of the nice things about sea otters is that they have to come to the surface and they just float. So it's just so easy to get these observations because they're also really close to shore. So like we were to get these detailed information, whereas like other smaller animals, like even river otters, it's really hard to spot them and actually see what they're doing in the wild, in the wild. So who knows what they're doing out there? Weird, wacky stuff.

• 45:10Alie Ward?

  You know, what's funny is I just looked and Emma Sherwood asked, I learned on a high school field trip to the zoo that male otters break each other's dicks to reduce competition. Is this true?

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Oh, there you go.

• 45:19Alie Ward?

  Emma Sherwood knows what's up. Yeah. Kathleen Sacks wants to know, can a troop of dedicated river otters really kill an alligator or a crocodile? Is that flimflam?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  So there's these things called giant river otters in South America in the Amazon. And these things are a little bit longer than the sea otters. And if you ever see pictures of these ones, they are so weird looking. They are another older lineage of otters that kind of offshoot from other otters like 10 million years ago or so. But they got really buggy eyes and they got their faces just like an alien otter. But these guys are huge and they actually are in family units. And they will actually go after, sometimes go after like Caymans. And there are even reports of them like fighting off jaguars.

• 46:05Alie Ward?

  No.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Which is pretty crazy.

• 46:08Alie Ward?

  For more on this, join the 4.2 million other humans who have watched a YouTube video titled "Giant Otter Bite Jaguar Head Seriously Injured For Daring To Attack Its Comrades," uploaded by user WildlifeToday. And this and the other like 14 videos I subsequently watched taught me that a brawl with giant river otters sounds a lot like the worst game of Marco Polo.

• 46:45Alie Ward?

  Why? Well, according to the paper, airborne vocal communication in adult neotropical otters, these creatures have like a menu of sounds they make to chit chat from a "ha!" It's like their own personal siren to infant babbling and something called a hum gradation that means, yo, bear left, go left, we're going left, to direct the group. And yes, some otters have more friends than us, but let's try to forget that fact. I mean.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  But yeah, the advantage for those guys is that they are in a group setting. So they have kind of each other's back to try to, you know, fight off predators that might try to attack their young.

• 47:21Alie Ward?

  Dang, I do not want to be on the wrong side of an otter vendetta, ever.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  I will have my vengeance.

• 47:29Alie Ward?

  You know what? Let's try to steer this toward the positives again. Okay, life is such a bummer. It's such a bummer, but it's imperative. We find the good and we grasp it and we clutch at it like a buoy in the cold, roiling sea and we hug the buoy, hug the good. What about playfulness and cuteness? Anna Thompson, Maury Pinto, Nicole Kleinman, Michelle Tang, Becky, the sassy sea grass scientist, Pierce Franklin, they all want to know, how cute does it get? Pierce wants to know, what's the cutest thing you've ever seen an otter do?

• 48:04Speaker 01

  The cutest thing I've ever seen is probably just like the little baby sea otter pup that's just floating by itself, waiting for its mom. I mean, I know I told you about how it's just waiting for mom to bring up dinner essentially, but before that, it's just floating by itself like a little cork, closed eyes, all fluffy and like just, look at me, I'm so adorable. Like it's got like 10 photographers just around, like along the coast or coast trying to take up its picture, including me. Like it's adorable. Probably the most playful time I've seen otters, or actually river otters, they actually play. So like they will swim next to each other or like go up and down or just run all over the place. So I've seen that in river otters, but I've never really seen that in sea otters.

• 48:47Alie Ward?

  Rhona Taylor, Anne and Kate Timms all want to know, why do they love ice so much? In Kate's words. And Rhona wants to know, do they get cold? Rhona says, we have otters in our local river in Scotland and it's magical when you see them, but oh boy, it gets so chilly. How do they stay cold in an icy river?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so sea otters have the densest fur, I think, of all mammals. So basically, sea otters have no fat on them whatsoever, so they're really reliant on that dense fur. And it does keep them warm, super warm. So that's why they're able to tolerate living in all these freezing, frigid environments just fine. And I would imagine river otters also have similarly dense fur, so that's why they're able to live in like Scotland and all these other cold places and play in the snow.

• 49:31Alie Ward?

  That's right. Sea otters, unlike most marine mammals, do not have layers of blubber. This is news to me. And this is also why their fur is so soft, up to illustrious 165,000 hairs per square centimeter. Eurasian river otters, about 70,000 hairs per square centimeter. What about us, a species that has fewer friends than otters? Well, we only have 124 to 200 hairs per square centimeter. Talking about the business end of one, Francesca Huggins, Miranda Panda, Claire Johnson, and Speck's Owl all would love to talk about their poop. And several people wanted to know what they smell like. Francesca asked, I heard that otter poop smells like

• 50:14Alie Ward?

  violets. What in the otter shit is this true? Why? Claire says that they went to the zoo and the guide said that otter poop is noteworthy, but then said nothing else. So what is noteworthy about otter poop?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  I definitely have never heard otter poop being described as violet. I have never smelled, I've never smelled otter poop, but I would imagine it smells like the worst shit you could ever smell, because they're eating seafood, like raw seafood. And that doesn't smell good. So I don't think I ever want to smell it, but I've never smelled it. But I would imagine it's about like the worst thing you could smell.

• 50:51Alie Ward?

  Right? That's what I would think also. You know, we had a scatologist on who works at the Chicago Zoo and just has like 13 freezers full of different zoo animal shit. So I may have to ask her. But first, I asked the internet about the smell of an otter turd, which is known scientifically as a spraint. And it can be accompanied by a musky gloop known as anal jelly. And Ian Kraft of the website Total Ecology writes, "When fresh, spraint emits a distinct sweet odor that is not at all unpleasant." And our friend Tyus Williams, AKA Science with Tyus, on Twitter said, "It's similar to the odorously pungent waft of dog poop, but laced with the fishiness of their marine diet." And Dr. Danny Raviotti,

• 51:34Alie Ward?

  author of the bestselling book, Does It Fart? told me it's acrid and fishy, quote, "Like a tin of anchovies and oil were left in the sun for four days, and then a bunch of musky man perfume was sprayed on top of it." I also saw that Twitter user Forrester Sahida described the smell as similar to jasmine tea. Others said herrings in an ashtray. Freshly mown hay, lavender, but no one's firsthand account topped that of Jim Manthorpe, who penned the BBC op-ed, quote, "The delicious scent of otter poo," which contains this journey of a paragraph.

• 52:13Alie Ward?

  Otter spraint is one of the least offensive smells in the world of excrement. It has a slightly fishy, pungent odor. It is a delight. Whenever I see it, I plant my knees in the grass, lean over, and draw its delicious smell into my lungs. Okay, Jim. I needed fact, though, not opinion. So I reached out to scatology guest Rachel Santimore, aka Dr. Poo, and she responded with alacrity, bless her, writing me, quote, "Otters live in and around water, so they eat fish, among other aquatic and non-aquatic species. So otter poo can be quite smelly. After reading 'The Delicious Scent of Otter Poo,' she writes, 'It seems to me that otter poo reminds the author of the sea.

• 52:56Alie Ward?

  Think about when you go to the ocean and it smells a little fishy and salty. It smells like the ocean, a place where you want to be, a place that reminds you of summer vacation, sandcastles, body surfing, being with your family, and relaxing,' she writes. She continues, "So even though otter poo is smelly, it reminds the author of something they like and where they want to be." So, y'all, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, find your joy. Cut bangs, text your crush, sniff on a spraint. Now, what do you do if you would like to use different holes in your face to experience an otter? Any tips on seeing them rather than sniffing? Well, patrons Kate Alward, Shayla Zink, Kelly Saman, Winnie's Witch, and Miranda Panda

• 53:39Alie Ward?

  all desperately wanted otter spotter tips. What about some of the fieldwork that you have gotten to do? And there are several folks, and I'll list them in a side, who want to know if you have any tips for spotting them in the wild. Do you get to get out there with, like... You know, fleece and down vests and binoculars and get out there to look for them?

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I've done that a couple of times. I was primarily trying to film their tool-using behavior so we could try to quantify the kinematics behind it. So, I mean, I call it, it's not really, I mean, I guess you could technically call it fieldwork, but it's basically, you go to the beach and you just have a little camping chair, set up the camera and just hang out there until you see an otter that's close enough to start filming or take photos of it. And like, it's California, so it's like, what, a nice 70-degree sunny day? Can't complain.

• 54:32Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  So it's not, yeah, it, yeah, it's obviously very rough fieldwork.

• 54:37Alie Ward?

  Yeah, that sounds absolutely terrible. I hope you don't have like a sandwich or anything or a nice cold beverage. Like, ugh, that's awful.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  No, I usually, I usually go with the, the chocolate croissant.

• 54:50Alie Ward?

  That sounds like the best thing ever. Becky, the Sea Grass Scientist again, you know, Becky wanted to know, is a group of otters really called a frolic? And if not, can you make that official? Is that real? Are they called a frolic?

• 55:03Speaker 01

  I've never heard of that, but I like it. It makes sense.

• 55:07Alie Ward?

  Okay, well then, good. It's called that now.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, if we all just start using that, it'll eventually catch on, I think.

• 55:14Alie Ward?

  Yeah, it's hereby known as a frolic. Horrible news again. I'm so sorry. We jumped the gun here. It's already got a name and it's not a frolic. A group of otters is called a romp on land. In the water, it's called a raft. And I searched for literally hours. Nowhere in the literature could I find any mention of them being called a frolic. Romp goes back to the 1400s, when there was a tome called The Book of St. Albans, and it listed plural nouns for different animals, including, let's just do it, let's list a couple, an embarrassment of pandas, passel of possums, a conspiracy of lemurs, a committee of mongooses. A thunder of hippopotami and many others,

• 55:57Alie Ward?

  including a grumble of pugs, perhaps grouchy from having a vertebra stolen. But nature writer Nicholas Lund has gone on record and reported, no, these terms are not widely used scientifically, no matter how old they are. But romp is legit. It's established. If you were to visit the Wikipedia page, list of animal names, I'm telling you right now, the lead image they have on the page is of a sea otter. So romp it is. Sorry, babies. Amelia Frank wants to know, I always hear on nature shows about how vital it is that otter moms keep their babies dry, but then like they hold them on their bellies and there is inevitably some flipper or tail dropping in the water. So do they have to keep them 100% dry? Because that sounds anxiety provoking, Amelia says. Should they not get soaked?

• 56:42Alie Ward?

  Can you get it? Can you get one wet? Or is it like a gremlin?

• 56:46Speaker 01

  No, they're definitely waterproof. They can get wet. The reason why the mom is trying to dry it out, it's just to conserve heat. It's also cleaning the fur. So otters spend like a third of their life just cleaning, grooming, just to make, because they rely on that fur as that insulation. They have to make sure that it's clean from all that dirt or debris or whatever to make sure it's actually functioning. So that fur doesn't clump up and expose its skin to the cold environment. So they really, really want to get those pups nice and clean. And usually it also happens to dry them out.

• 57:18Alie Ward?

  Okay. All right. So it's not, it's definitely not like if a drop of water gets on this, it's you're screwed forever.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:24Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Oh, no, yeah. Sea otters, sea otters are born to be in the water. So.

• 57:29Alie Ward?

  Courtney K. wants to know if river otters actually have a communal toilet. Do they have like mittens?

• 57:34Speaker 01

  I think so, but don't quote me on that. What, what river otters do a lot, though, is that they'll mark territories. So they'll basically leave scent marks all over the place. And they might go to the same location all the time, just to make sure that that's, you know, the boundary of their territory. So maybe that is related to that.

• 57:54Alie Ward?

  The otter podies, side note, are called latrines, and they are considered to be hangout destinations where dude otters catch up and exchange information, kind of like walking onto the set of Cheers. But instead of brewskis, it's poo. Puskeys. Also, speaking of chilling, I feel like this is an appropriate place to inform you that an otter's den is also called a couch. You know what? Let's talk teeth. Patrons Jesse B., Jesse Hurlbert, and Avon had questions. A few people wanted to know about their teeth. Anna Zimmer says, "I recently heard an otter chewing. I was tens of feet away across the water and could barely believe my ears. Tell me about their chompers."

• 58:33Speaker 01

  So otters, or at least sea otter teeth, look very similar to ours. They're, at least their molars, it's nice and big and flat, perfect just to crunch things. So often, if you go to where sea otters are and you're really quiet, you can actually hear them crunching on that hard shell. And it's actually pretty amazing. And what's super cool about those, the sea otter adaptations, is that their enamel on their molars are actually fracture resistant. So they've evolved to basically be able to sustain all of that, all that fracture forces from the prey they're eating. Because if you imagine if you were trying to eat through clam shells, your teeth would get destroyed.

• 59:13Alie Ward?

  Oh, you'd be so fucked.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Instantly.

• 59:15Alie Ward?

  Yeah, your dentist would be like, "Thank you?" What makes it fracture resistant? Do they have a ton of people in like DARPA trying to figure out otter teeth so they can make better weapons or something?

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I don't know about that, but there are definitely people that have looked at the material properties of those teeth. And I don't remember exactly what the kind of minerals they have, but they've done comparisons with like ancient humans that had much bigger jaws and bigger molars to crush those types of seeds as well. And it's very similar morphologies and it's pretty, pretty impressive. So it's like kind of through convergent evolution that this type of molars have, have evolved to be a perfect teeth to crush things.

• 59:52Alie Ward?

  For more on this, you can see the 2009 paper enthusiastically titled "The Remarkable Resilience of Teeth," which straight up compares the strength of a human molar to a sea otter's. And humans, maximum load, 87 pounds of bite force, but otters, over 100, more than a cheetah, almost as much as a wolf. But how do sea otter molars not split while they're chomping on clam shells? Oh, they do. They do split. But this paper said that their molars and ours... Crack all the time in micro fissures and then proteins rush in to spackle them, but still don't eat rocks. On the topic of hardness.

• 1:00:34Alie Ward?

  What about the hardest thing about your job, the hardest thing about being an otterologist? There's gotta be some of that.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  But there's just so many things to learn about them. There's not enough time. So like, we know so much about sea otters, oh, relatively, just because they're easier to study. But in terms of the other otters, especially the ones that are like in Asia or South America, those ones are very, are much harder to study just because of their locations and because their population sizes are either shrinking or we have no idea. There's actually another otter species down in South America called the marine otter. And it looks like a river otter, but it actually lives in a marine environment, too. And it actually eats a lot of hard shell prey, too.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  But we have barely any idea of like, what exactly it's doing, what its population sizes is. It might not be doing well just because there's not a lot of work done on them and just in these remote locations.

• 1:01:34Alie Ward?

  What do you love the most about them? What do you just fall in love with when it comes to doing this work?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  It's just, they're just such interesting animals. The fact that they have this integration between their tool-using behavior, their morphology is just unique compared to other things. Like, it's just interesting that they are able to gain access to these harder prey. One thing I didn't touch on is that in Monterey Bay, these otters actually exhibit dietary specialization. So some otters will only eat urchins, others will only eat clams, others will only eat crabs, and so on. So part of my research now is actually trying to investigate why that is or how they're actually able to eat these different types of prey. So how is it relating to the tool-using behavior? And how is it relating back to their variation and their biting ability?

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  So as in, are some otters just able to generate larger bite forces than other otters? So that's the type of questions that we're hoping to be able to answer soon.

• 1:02:32Alie Ward?

  Is that regional, like little pockets? Or is it completely individual? Like, one sister might be eating urchins while a brother's eating clams?

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, right now, that's, I think, primarily found just in California. And it goes back to that carrying capacity. So, because their, that population is limited in terms of, of resources and, and food. Instead of each individual being a journalist, basically, eat everything they can get. They just become super specialized and, um, just become really good at eating a particular prey. So, one individual will just become a really good urchin specialist. And with an urchin specialist, there's a certain way you have to extract them, certain way you have to, like, open them and eat them, versus like an abalone specialist, which uses completely different behaviors in order to get the abalone and, and eat it.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  So, they just become these really highly specialized individuals that really are able to get access to these different prey items and do it so well that, and efficiently. And that's just the way that they can increase that caloric income, versus just becoming just a journalist and eat everything they see.

• 1:03:37Alie Ward?

  Yeah, that's so funny. It's absolutely me eating scrambled eggs for dinner. Like, eh, it's fine.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, once you, once you know how to do it, just go for it, right? Why learn something new?

• 1:03:50Alie Ward?

  Yeah, I love the idea of someone peeking through my windows, being like, make a note, she's having, she's having scrambled eggs for dinner, too.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing with these otters, that, you know, they're, they're, they're flipper tags. So, people can actually ID them. And usually, the Monterey Bay Aquarium has lots of volunteers to go out to observe these otters on a daily basis. So, they're basically, if you're out there, they would be tracking, how many eggs did you use? How did you put any salt? Did you use a fork? How did you cook your eggs? So, essentially, they're basically tracking all of that information. So, they're tracking how many prey items they're eating, what kind of prey items, and estimated size of those prey items, where they use tools for that prey item. It's pretty nuts.

• 1:04:30Alie Ward?

  Wow.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  It's pretty amazing data.

• 1:04:32Alie Ward?

  I bet the people who have to organize the volunteer staff at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, they must get so many folks who are like, if you need a, you need a volunteer to watch the otter, I'm available, I'm available. Like, that's gotta be a long list of volunteers.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Right, I mean... Who doesn't want to spend a nice, nice morning hanging out by the coast and watching some sea otters eat their dinner or eat their breakfast? I mean.

• 1:04:57Alie Ward?

  Yeah. Well, meanwhile, someone's watching you and being like, Dr. Law is having another chocolate croissant. We don't know why.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, the otters could totally be just watching me back.

• 1:05:07Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm. I hope they are. Thank you so, so much for being on. This is a joy. Yeah, I hate otters more than I thought.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks for definitely having me on.

• 1:05:22Alie Ward?

  So ask smart people shameless questions as always, and then just sit back and reel in horror. You can follow Dr. Chris Law on Twitter at Chris underscore J underscore Law, and you can enjoy otters from a distance. You can enjoy them online. If you sniff a sprain, I'd like to hear about it. I don't know if I do want, actually, I do want to hear about it. I do want to hear about it. We're at Ologies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Ali Ward with one L on both. Ologiesmerch.com has bucket hats, has t-shirts, totes, bathing suits, all available. If you happen to get one, hashtag Ologies merch and pictures and we'll repost you. Also, thank you to every patron who makes this show possible at patreon.com/ologies. It costs a dollar a month to join, and then you can submit questions. Thank you to Erin

• 1:06:07Alie Ward?

  Talbert for adminning the Ologies Podcast Facebook group with assists from Bonnie Dutch and Shannon Feltes of the comedy podcast You Are That. Thank you, Noelle Dilworth, for all the scheduling, so much help. Susan Hale handles merch and so much more. Thank you to Zeke Rodriguez-Thomas and Mercedes Maitland of Mindgem Media for making Smologies episodes, which are classroom-friendly, filth-free, short versions of classics up for free in the feed and at aliward.com/smologies. Emily White of The Wordery makes our professional transcripts, and Caleb Patton bleeps episodes. Those are available for free on our website at aliward.com/ologies-extras. Kelly R. Dwyer makes the website and can make yours. Nick Thorburn made the theme music, and editing was done by the quite handsome writer and

• 1:06:49Alie Ward?

  published poet, Jarrett Sleeper, who just debuted his first ever book. It's called 100 Poems. I'm putting a link in the show notes to it because he has a gorgeous, beautiful brain that strings together words so well. 100 poems by Jarrett Sleeper. I'm so thrilled about it. I literally could cry. If you listen to the end of the episode, you know I tell you a secret, and this week it's that. We fought off COVID. So that's good. I'm still back in LA for a little bit. Since my dad was feeling stronger and we were just hovering too much in the last few weeks, maybe even the most anxiety I maybe have ever felt in my life, but we're taking it day by day. Okay, so the new fresh secret for this encore is that this episode went out on

• 1:07:32Alie Ward?

  a Tuesday in July of 2022. And a few days later, before the next episode even came out, my sweet, sweet dad, your grandpa, had passed away into the, as we say, the grand old everything of the universe. It was so, it was so weird and it was also so sweet. In all the episodes I'd ever done, my dad's voice had never been in one before and it was in all of your ears that week, the very week that he passed away. Also, you wonderful Ollagites were so caring and so lovely to me through all of this. And I remember telling Jared in the weeks after just how I felt very lucky that so many people were mourning

• 1:08:13Alie Ward?

  my dad at the same time I was, because, you know, I know he was dear to you. He cared so much about critters. He had a lot of curiosity. He was a very gentle dude. So this otter's episode always meant a lot to me because it had his voice in it and it came out right as he kind of slipped away. Also, just horrific trivia. The gossip you will have for days, the lives ruined, the otter PR absolutely destroyed. Okay, that's it for me. Back to soup, back to bed. New episode next week. I'm going to be on the mend, I promise. Okay. Bye bye.

• 1:09:11Speaker 08

  What are we looking at here? We're looking at sea otters. Six of them here. They go down to the bottom, they get a stone and they go down to the bottom, they get a seashell and then they smash the shell with the stone, like that. It's cool, isn't it?

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