Fromology (CHEESE) Part 2 with Kyra James

We’re back with molten hot cheese trivia in Part 2 with Fromologist Kyra James of OwnYourFunk.com. Part 1 covered the foundations and this week we address your listener questions about cows on boats, plant-based cheese options, how to properly store cheese, how cheese changes your brain chemistry, the Cooper's Hill Cheese-Rolling and Wake, the great grilled cheese debate, DIY cheeses, squeaky curds, Missouri’s cheese caves, the moon’s composition, and the ultimate charcuterie board. Also: holes, and crystals and maggots, oh my!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

  So just a heads up, as with part one, we're discussing dairy and we also make acknowledgements of animal rights concerns. And this week, we discuss a bunch of vegan options in more depth, too. And this wonderful Cheese Experts focus isn't dairy farming as an industry, but rather the process of cheesemaking. And also in the future, we have a plant-based diet episode coming up. So enjoy. Oh, hey, it's once again the monster who returns emails at 4:00 PM on a Friday. Sorry, everyone, still. Ali Ward, this is Cheese. This is part two. So if you have come here first, you skipped part one, I just simply cannot abide because you will get to know our esteemed guest and you will know Cheese from a foundational level. So start there. Start at part one. That's the beginning. That's how things go. Now, in

• 0:44Alie Ward?

  a moment, we're going to get to part two, which is just wall-to-wall listener questions and weirder and creepier, tastier, gorgeous facts about things like cows on boats and vegan options for cheese, the most violent way to enjoy cheese, the great grilled cheese sandwich debate, how to craft some curds at home. We talk about cheese pricing, squeaky curds, the moon's composition, the ultimate charcuterie board. We also talk holes, crystals, maggots. Oh, my. But first, thank you to patrons via patreon.com/ologies, who for a dollar a month can submit questions ahead of time for the ologists. And thanks to everyone who's out there wearing Ologies merch out in the wild. So you can find each other. You

• 1:24Alie Ward?

  can get it at ologiesmerch.com. For no dollars, thank you for leaving us reviews. I read all of them. And then as proof, I highlight a fresh one, such as this one this week from EKW04, who wrote that this podcast is smart, hilarious, weirdly comforting, and 100% responsible for their new obsession with rattlesnakes. Because like, what do you mean there's a live stream of a rattlesnake den? 10 out of 10. EKW004, thanks for that from me and from the rattlesnakes. Enjoy the rattlesnakes episode if you haven't already. It's so good. Okay, if you're new around here also, and you need any kid-safe versions of ologies, we have them for free. They're in their very own feed wherever you get podcasts. They're called Smologies, S-M-O-L-O-G-I-E-S. They're also linked in the show notes, or

• 2:08Alie Ward?

  just honestly, search any podcast player. And you can subscribe there for classroom safe and G-rated cuts. Also, thanks to sponsors of the show for making it possible for us to donate to a cause of the ologists choosing every episode. How's your ponytail looking? Maybe like a little thinner than it used to? We've talked about this in our menopause episode. At some point, it's bound to happen to all of us. So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair, start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required.

• 2:53Alie Ward?

  Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Father Ward, you say, there's no way you would need a career coach. You have it all together. That's a lie, and you know it. I actually hired a career coach, and without them, I wouldn't have started Ologies. It was one of the best investments I've ever made. And if you're like, I don't know where to find a career coach, I can help you. You need an experienced pro who asks the right questions, sets you down a path where you're most likely to succeed. And that's what you can expect from a coach at today's sponsor, strawberry.me. This is so cool. They match you with a certified coach who's been vetted to work closely with company founders. And yeah, sometimes I'm like, oh, wait, that's right. I am one. And if you're founding a business, even if you're along the way and you're maybe stuck in a rut

• 3:38Alie Ward?

  or you have to make a decision about expansion or what direction you want to take your company, that's what I did. I went to strawberry.me and I was like, okay, can you help me pare down some stuff? I think I have too much on my plate. I'm not sure what to say yes to and what to say no to. And then we're super helpful in helping me streamline. And now I get to sleep more, and I enjoy that. So get the help every entrepreneur needs. Go to strawberry.me/ologies. That's strawberry.me/ologies. You're the boss. This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Your body has a lot going on. Sleep, stress, recovery. You would be surprised how connected it all is. Aura Ring tracks more than 50 metrics from your finger, and the Aura app brings that information together

• 4:22Alie Ward?

  to help you see patterns across your sleep and stress, activity, and more. So you can start connecting the dots and figure out what works for you. Learn more at aura ring.com. Wear your best life with Aura. Okay, on to fromology, part two. Illegal cheeses, the pasteurization conundrum, how to properly store cheese, orange versus white cheddar, why cheese changes your brain chemistry, and so much more. And heads up, when you hear this guest say, "Great question," just feel free to do a tiny imperceptible dance, or you can take a sip of whatever beverage you've got going on, celebrate it. There are a lot of really stellar answers to great questions with this professional

• 5:04Alie Ward?

  food educator, certified cheese professional, and fromologist, Kyra James.

• 5:28Alie Ward?

  Can I do a lightning round of listener questions?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 5:33Alie Ward?

  The most questions we've ever gotten on any episode.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  That's awesome. People love cheese.

• 5:39Alie Ward?

  They love cheese, and they have questions.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  My name is Rony. I live in LA, and I was wondering what the deal is with the cheese that has the bugs in it. So if you could let me know why the cheese has bugs in it, that would be really great. Thank you.

• 5:56Alie Ward?

  Rony, thank you. You're not alone, because her ladyship, Jen, Dr. Lena Carpenter, TB33, Dory Baggett's husband Seth, Dig, Haley Kirby, Ingve, Sylvia Traverio, Spencer Aldridge, and Mouse Paxton, who says, "I'll try most things, but that's just too much for me." So that's a cheese even a mouse won't fuck with. So what is happening? And, Rony, not Ronnie, pardon. So Ronnie and other folks want to know, what's with the mite cheese? What's with the maggot cheese? What's happening?

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so maggot cheese is called katsu matsu.

• 6:27Alie Ward?

  It means putrid cheese, and it's illegal.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  It's from Sardinia. And what they're basically doing, it's not sold anywhere. They make the cheese, but it's no longer allowed to be sold. But they're making the cheese the same way traditionally. And what they do is they leave the cheese out, so they go through the make process, they go through the aging process, and then the wheel of cheese is sit out on a counter, and they basically allow a certain breed of flies to lay their eggs on the cheese. And then the larvae... Eat away at the cheese and excrete afterwards. Oh. And so that sort of process creates a certain texture and flavor profile that's very, very specific.

• 7:12Alie Ward?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  And very, very unique, but very well-known also. So, yes, I've never had it, but I've learned a lot about it just because people do often ask about it. So, great question, yeah. But it's the larvae that... So, it's not necessarily maggots, but it's the larvae that are consuming the cheese and creating the super supple texture.

• 7:33Alie Ward?

  Does that leave holes in the cheese, like little burrows?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's holes in the exterior of the cheese because they're burrowing into the paste of the cheese. So, there are definitely holes on the outside, yeah.

• 7:44Alie Ward?

  So, yes, this is a sheep's cheese. It's a pecorino, if you remember from part one. And it's infested with Pyophilia casei, or the cheese skipper, also known as a ham skipper. And I'm going to let you guess why they also call it a ham skipper. So, it likes ham. And some folks, they smear this cheese while it's still wriggling right on a piece of bread, and then the party just rages on down the hatch. And apparently, if the maggots are not still alive, it's not safe to eat. If the maggots are alive, it's also not safe to eat. But that's not the point. And I started with this cursory Wiki search. But what I found on Wikipedia was so simple and so delicious. I'd like to serve you up some excerpts, verbatim. Okay.

• 8:30Alie Ward?

  Quote, "Some who eat the cheese prefer not to ingest the maggots. Those who do not wish to eat them place the cheese in a sealed paper bag. The maggots, starved for oxygen, writhe and jump in the bag, creating a pitter-patter sound. When the sounds subside, the maggots are dead and the cheese can be eaten." Wikipedia continues, "Because the larvae in the cheese can launch themselves distances of up to 15 centimeters or 6 inches when disturbed, diners hold their hands above the sandwich to prevent the maggots from leaping." Now additionally, the Guinness Book of World Records, which named Katz Martzu as the most dangerous cheese in the world, notes that if you eat the maggots and they survive your teeth and your stomach,

• 9:15Alie Ward?

  you could be rewarded with things like intestinal lesions and new wormy roommates down there. You could also enjoy vomiting, itchy butt, and bloody diarrhea. Is it worth it? Apparently, it tastes intense, which is no surprise. Also, grassy, it's got a little spicy sting, and an aftertaste that I'm reading can last until the next day if you're lucky. So that's a lot of bang for the buck. Now, in a 2021 article in The Outline titled, "The Secret Resistance Behind the World's Most Dangerous Cheese", this article notes that if you go to Sardinia and you ask about this cheese, people will likely be annoyed because, one, it's illegal, even though people still make and eat it there,

• 9:58Alie Ward?

  and two, because tourists ask about it all the time, probably like wanting to make a TikTok about it. Well, several people want to know. Jacob Stock, Matthew Walker, Storm, Wickerbitch, Bonnie M. Rutherford, and Hendrix want to know, in Jacob's words, "How does Swiss cheese get its holes? Like, girl, is it breathing."

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Great question.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Thanks again, Jacob.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  They're actually called eyes, and they're basically traps of gas. So during the fermentation process, when the lactose is being turned into lactic acid in certain types of cheeses, there will be gas bubbles that are formed. They pop inside the cheese, and that's what creates the holes inside the cheese. So it's actually the process of making cheese. Emmentaler is one of the most famous ones. What we in America call Swiss cheese often is described as having holes in it, but that's the process of it, and it does create a certain flavor profile as well. It's not just random, it's very intentional.

• 10:56Alie Ward?

  Okay. Emmental is the proper way to address it, though.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Emmentaler is one type of cheese.

• 11:03Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  It's becoming extinct in some ways. We're trying to save the emmentaler from going extinct. So it's definitely one that I call out very often. But it's just, it's one that sort of when you see an image of a piece of cheese with holes in it, that's what it looks like to me.

• 11:17Alie Ward?

  So there are many, many types of Swiss cheeses. But the holy, holy kind that you're imagining is, yes, called an emmentaler. And according to the 1917 paper, on the formation of eyes in emmental cheese, there are three types of holes in this kind of Swiss cheese. The smallest are called Nissler holes, the eyes, which are medium sized. And then there's the largest ones called blow holes. And this 1917 paper stated very confidently that a rapid gas production makes the Nissler holes and slower gas production must be responsible for the larger holes. Since the 1917 paper, scientists have known that the holes are caused by trapped gases.

• 11:58Alie Ward?

  However, however, a couple of decades ago, the holes started disappearing. What is this? Is this climate change? Is this unhappy cows? Did we go down the wrong path in a simulation? Is there some dark magic wielded by a lactose intolerant warlock? What happened to the holes? Well, in 2015, some fresh knowledge bubbled to the surface in a paper titled, Mechanism and Control of the Eye Formation in Cheese. And that reminded us that, yes, the eye formation in Swiss type cheese is mainly the result of acid fermentation, which creates a few substances, including CO2 gas bubbles. Now, usually, formologists do these cheese eye exams by,

• 12:39Alie Ward?

  quote, "listening to the type of sound made while tapping with a special hammer on the surface of the cheese loaf." This study, however, this 2015 study, used ultrasounds and other medical imaging equipment to find out what causes the quantity and the size of the bubbles. And they found out it's trace amounts of hay in the milk. So the eyes in emmentaler type cheeses were disappearing because the milk was being collected through more modern means, i.e. Not someone in a sundress and braids with an open pail, which would get specks of hay kind of dancing amid the way.

• 13:18Alie Ward?

  So the paper concludes that it's likely that trace amounts of hay dust entering in raw milk have always been the natural source of the eye nuclei, which trigger the start of eye formation in the cheese. And just recently, this just was decided. There was all this fierce debate from traditionalists and industrialists. And Switzerland has decided to allow the addition of hay flour powder to its cheeses. That way, they can keep harvesting the milk with modern equipment, but also add a little hay dust in there to get the bubbles back. And it's also worth noting that the holes in this type of cheese for a long time were considered bad and unsightly. They were a bug and not a feature.

• 14:03Alie Ward?

  But over the centuries, this holy look of Emmentaler cheese became representative of all cheese itself. So remember, when you see an Emmentaler cheese just serving with those stunning eyes, remember that that was once seen as bad. And now it's iconic. What's the emoji for cheese? Yeah, bitch, the Emmentaler. Okay, dead ass. Side note, we have a two-part episode all about how they decide on emojis. And it's called Curiology. And July 17th is World Emoji Day because the little calendar emoji says July 17th. We'll link that in the show notes. But let's take a quick detour from dusty buckets to cheese that needs no cows. Dozens and dozens of you wanted to know.

• 14:48Alie Ward?

  So many people, I don't even know if I can list all their names, asked about vegan cheese. Jerry Brown, first time question asker, wanted to know, does nut cheese use the same bacteria as dairy cheese? And is that technically cheese? Lauren Cooper, this is going to be a divisive question. Want to know, why does vegan cheese suck so much? Other people think it's it's good. I, myself, a diet cheese, I think that melts great. If you've got a vegan pizza with diet cheese, I'm all for it.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  So I've lots of thoughts on vegan cheese. It's a topic that we talk about in the industry in some way, shape or form a lot. But.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  To me, vegan cheese is not cheese.

• 15:30Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  I think it's a vegan product. I think vegan cheese product might be a better way to to name it. But it's not the same as cheese. There are vegan cheeses that use the same microorganisms to create the final product. There are vegan cheeses that go through fermentation. Well, not fermentation exactly, but where you can actually have a rind on the cheese, where you have certain flavor profiles in the cheese. Like, they have blue vegan cheese, they have cheddar vegan cheeses. They're adding certain things to those products that are the same exact ingredients that you'd add to cheese. So in that respect, they're very similar, but there's no milk. And so for me, without having dairy milk included,

• 16:12Speaker 01

  it's not a fermented milk product, so therefore it's not cheese.

• 16:17Alie Ward?

  I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I think that it's delicious. I eat vegetarian often, and I've had many of the vegan cheeses on the market, and there are a few that I actually would eat again. So I definitely have no shade to them. To me, they're not considered cheese. I would say that they're their own separate category and should be treated as such.

• 16:38Alie Ward?

  Do you think that nut milks and vegan cheese should go by something else like ches or milk? Like, do you think that we need a distinguishing name for them?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  I always think things should be able to stand on their own. I think that having its own allows for to create its own perceptions. When you put the word milk or cheese within the name of the product, people are going to automatically associate the two together. And so when you eat vegan cheese and it doesn't taste like cheese, people get upset because they're expecting it to taste like cheese. Just like oat milk. When you have oat milk and it doesn't taste like regular milk, people are like, this is gross. And it's like, well, it's not supposed to be the same thing. It's its own product. So I think we kind of do a disservice by naming these things and putting them in the same categories because it doesn't allow that that product to shine fully on its own.

• 17:33Alie Ward?

  It's like calling a bike a car. They're different and they serve different functions.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  That's a good point like that, yes.

• 17:39Alie Ward?

  It's a bike. Leave it alone.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 17:43Alie Ward?

  So vegan cheeses tend to rely on starches and fats combined instead of protein and fats, as animal dairy does. But in the last few years, there have been more and more and more options for plant-based cheese. So if you tried it years ago, give it another try. Right now, someone in a lab coat out there, maybe you're listening, is making nachos that you will love in the future. And that person is probably using the empirical Schreiber multibility test, which is an actual thing, which puts samples of cheese in an oven on a ringed Petri dish to see just what kind of spread each cheese has. And yeah, for me personally, I find Daiya cheese, D-A-I-Y-A, Daiya cheese, those tend to be the stretchiest,

• 18:23Alie Ward?

  meltiest, gooiest. I prefer them over regular shredded cheeses. I think that they're better. But other favorite brands I've seen on plant-based forums are Chow Creamery and one called Miokos Mozzarella, which is like a liquid. It comes in a bottle. I guess just trust the process. Vial Life is said to make a good feta cheese. And for Blue Cheese Crumbles, I've heard good things about Follow Your Heart. Now, if you have some plant-based friends or maybe some vegan curious ones or anyone, maybe you could have like a BYOVC, Bring Your Own Vegan Cheese Pizza Party. So everyone brings one and then you can sample a lot without spending too much on any one particular one. But if you're like, take me back to

• 19:07Alie Ward?

  the cows. This next topic was asked by Lisa Gorman and Taylor, among others. Many people had cheddar questions. Abby Grebe, Alice Rubin, Megan Walker, Rebecca, first time question asker, and Rachel Glazza, first time question asker, wanted to know, Abby asked, I love sharp cheddar. What makes it and other similar cheeses sharp? And why is it so much better than mild cheeses? And Megan Walker wanted to know, why is so much cheddar orange?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Great questions. So, the word "sharp" is a tough one. Okay. We in the industry don't use the word "sharp" very often to describe things because it's, it can mean so many different things. But in America, we do brand cheddars using the word "sharp" and "extra sharp," and there are actually rules behind it. So, to be a sharp cheese in America, it's aged between six and eight months. And then to be an extra sharp cheese, an extra sharp cheddar, it's aged at least 12 months. So, in thinking about it from a cheese monger perspective, the older the cheddar is, the stronger the flavor will be. So, you have less moisture, more acidity. So, oftentimes, sharpness is associated with

• 20:17Speaker 01

  being acidic, or like, you know, hitting the back of your throat, kind of thing. Mm-hmm. So, the older the cheddar is, the more sharpness, or the more intensity you'll find it has. Now, cheddars, if they're orange, they've been dyed. Oh. With a natural ingredient called anoto. Anoto is a seed. It's similar to turmeric in some ways, in that it provides a lot of color, but not a lot of flavor to foods. And so, when you add anoto to cheese, it creates the orange color without adding any flavor. A lot of times, anoto was, throughout history, added to create distinctions between cheese

• 21:01Speaker 01

  types, so that you can identify it as a certain cheese. Like, oh, that's what you call it because it's orange. Other cheeses are dyed orange naturally. Like, a Gouda will be a dark orange, just because of time. During the aging process, it'll actually get darker in color. So, a lot of times, the darkness is natural. Cheddars and Goudas specifically have a lot of yellow tones in them, and that comes from the, what the animals are eating. So, the more grass an animal eats, the more yellow the cheese will be. Oh. For cow and sheep's milk cheeses. So, oftentimes, if you see a dark yellow cheese, you know that the animal has been eating grass. So, that's one, another factor. But, yeah, they're dyed orange using anoto seed.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  And so, white cheddar is just that without the anoto? Yes, exactly. And that was something that really blew my mind when I learned it, because when I was little, I only ate orange cheese. I hated, I hated white cheese. I thought it tasted, I thought it tasted different. And so, to hear it now, I'm like, oh. Got that wrong.

• 22:05Alie Ward?

  My dad was that way. When they started labeling red licorice, like red vines, fat-free, my dad was like, they don't taste the same, but they had always been fat-free, but they just started putting that on the label. We're like, Dad.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 22:18Alie Ward?

  Like, I don't know, something's wrong with them. And it's like, in your head. But that sharp, sharp cheese. I thought this was a great question. I'm sure you get this a lot. Marcy and Maeve, Olivia Myers, Shirley Louz, Enombo, first time question asker, Maya Dash, Kentley, Rachel Guthrie, Michael Newman, Kate Radford, Bradley Ludwig, and Jordan Irons wanted to know the crystals. Rachel asked, what are the crystals in sharper and harder cheeses? Yeah, how old does it have to be? And Maya is a first time question asker and a Wisconsin cheese head. And they say, they just had a delightful piece of aged Gouda and wondered what makes those magical little crystals? Why are they the most delicious?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Great question. Yes, definitely get this one often. So they're not actual crystals. They're crystallized protein, oftentimes amino acid. So the most common one that you'll see inside the cheeses will be called teraseine crystals. So as the cheese ages, and again, loses that moisture, things begin to break down in a different way. So it's actually a form of the proteins breaking down and separating into these crystallized pieces. And so they become little crunchy bites in your cheese. They often taste saltier, but that's just the concentrated flavor of the proteins. There's also crystals sometimes on the exterior of cheeses, like block cheddars,

• 23:43Speaker 01

  who often have what we call calcium lactate, which is an amino acid that is formed on the outside of cheddars. That has a little bit of a crystallized texture as well that some people love, some people don't like, but you can always just scrape it off for the calcium lactate. But to get crystals, I mean, the cheese has to be aged, you know, six months or so. If you're making an aged Gouda, it probably will take a few more months to get to crystallized textures. But cheddars, you might have some crystals in like six months to eight months.

• 24:17Alie Ward?

  So if you see little crunchy crystals in the cheese that you've just bought, don't worry, you are just blessed. It's so interesting to think that that your cheese could be older than like a baby that's walking, you know, something like that. That's nuts.

• 24:32Alie Ward?

  A lot of people, Claire Geben, Mallory Albee, Kayla, Rhiannon Humany, Alice Rubin, and Jordan wanted to know, in Claire's words, why do some cheeses melt and become liquid like mozzarella and some hold their shape like halloumi?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Great question. So it has to do with the moisture and the acidity of the cheese. So if it's higher in moisture and low in acidity, that's sort of the sweet spot for melting cheese. So in terms of what that means for you, the person who doesn't know what moisture or acidity levels are in cheese, look for things that are at that sort of malleable texture or sort of wiggly, or you can like bendable or pliable. Things that are super hard are not going to have a lot of moisture in them, so they're going to take a lot longer to melt. And things with high acidity like Paner or Halloumi that are on the other

• 25:27Speaker 01

  end of the spectrum are not going to melt. Their proteins are sort of set up in a different way, so their proteins are a lot tighter together when they're high in acid, and so that the proteins don't want to melt. They're going to want to stick together and keep that strong bond they have. So asking a cheese monger is the best recommendation I can give, but if you're at the store looking for cheeses that melt well, look for things that are sort of semi-firm, or that you can bend, or that you can sort of press your finger into. Those cheeses will melt really well.

• 26:00Alie Ward?

  And in part one, you may remember that we covered sodium citrate added to American cheese to make it meltier and to stabilize the proteins and fats. And as long as we're here, did you know that Parmesan cheese powder, I just found this out, you know, the kind that you shake over spaghetti leftovers, the one with like the green top? It's called Parmesan because outside the EU, you can just call whatever, whatever, even though it's not pure Parmesan. Also, check the back of that cheese powder, and you will probably see the ingredient cellulose fiber. Which is just wood pulp. They just add sawdust in there to prevent caking. But also, they do it to sell you some sawdust because it's probably cheaper than cheese.

• 26:43Alie Ward?

  Now, if that is the only Parmesan cheese that you've ever had, you're me until my late twenties. But it turns out that Parmigiano Reggiano is the actual cheese. It's worth the crumble. But back to those softer, meltier cheeses. Hang on to your lactose tabs for a very contentious question here. Alice Rubin and Jason Ferrer wanted to know. Jason asked, what cheese should I use for the best grilled cheese sandwich?

• 27:10Alie Ward?

  Or in your mind, if you had your perfect grilled cheese, this can be absolutely subjective from your perspective. Best grilled cheese, is it a sourdough? Is it a wheat bread? Is it a rye? What's your dream grilled cheese?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  I do love sourdough. I would probably say sourdough bread. And I would go to the Alps, so I would probably get some young Gruyere or a young Comté. Comté is made in France, similar recipe to Gruyere, but a little bit sweeter. There's also Fontina is a great melter. So it would be a mix of a few cheeses for sure. I like to have diversity in my grilled cheese, so a couple of different cheeses. I use butter. I know you can use like mayo or things for your exterior, but I just use butter on the outside of the bread. And then, yeah, that would probably be my ideal cheese. I like the nuttiness of Alpine cheeses. They're super nutty and they have some sweetness. So those would be my choices.

• 28:10Alie Ward?

  Nice. Just a side note, so America's Test Kitchen did the legwork of making mayo and butter, and for good measure, olive oil grilled cheeses. And the results were essentially buttery, butter one tasted the most buttery, but it was harder to spread when the butter was cold. Full fat mayo, spread the easiest, but had an acidic tang from the lemon juice. And olive oil tasted too much like olive oil. So it seems that whatever you grill it with, it will taste like that. So there's science. Alice Rubin, again, and David wanted to know. Alice asked, why doesn't my homemade mac and cheese taste cheesy? And David wanted to know, they've made a cheese sauce that tasted very grainy.

• 28:54Alie Ward?

  Best way to make a good mac and cheese that tastes cheesy and not just milky?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Um, less milk or less cream. I mean, just focus on the cheese, using that as your base instead of adding, like I know in my world, my mom adds a lot of milk to her mac and cheese. Instead of just making a cheese sauce of some kind and then adding that to the noodles. That would be the, I think, the best solution to making it cheesy and a nice cheese pull. Having a mixture of cheeses also, having some that have more pungency, like things that might seem too strong for mac and cheese, might be just the thing because when it melts, the enzymes and proteins are breaking down. So the flavor changes a bit. So it might not be as pungent once you melt it into the cheese.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  And then having something mild, so having something on the stronger side, like an aged Alpine style cheese, and then having something softer, you know, like a mozzarella or something on that, you know, super, super creamy.

• 29:57Alie Ward?

  So something pungent, like an Alpine cheese, plus something soft and creamy and milder. So this is a two-pronged approach at least. And use less milk. Think of making a cheese sauce. So your noodles don't soak in a bath. Your noodles get a moisturizer of cheese.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  But then you can also add Parmesan. I mean, adding a little bit of Parmesan. Parmesan melts really well, even though it's a hard cheese. Adding a crust with more cheese on it is something else that I would recommend. Always having some kind of like breadcrumb or cheesy crust. For the grainy question, that's definitely to do with the type of cheese that you used. If it wasn't that sort of high moisture, low acid that I mentioned, if it was a harder cheese, you might have a more granular texture once it melts. So that could be the reason why. If the cheese was too aged or not enough moisture, that can make your cheese, your mac and cheese, grainy.

• 30:52Alie Ward?

  So use a softer cheese, less acid, less age when you're whipping up a mac and cheese. And then call me, invite me over, give me a bib and the casserole dish, and then leave me alone with it. No looking at me, no talking. What about as long as on the topic of homemade, Brian Scott, Earl of Grammalkin, Zach Ever, Eight, Caro Young, and Christy Adventure wanted to know, Caro asked, is there an easy way to make cheese at home? And how can I start doing that?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  So you can buy cheesemaking kits, which is what I would recommend to do. Just search in cheesemaking kits. I think there's a few different companies that have high ratings. And they give you all the instructions. They give you all the ingredients that you'll need. So you can just follow along and you can make mozzarella. You can make ricotta using Rennett. But also to make a fresh cheese, like a farmer's cheese, just like at home, quick cheese. All you need is some lemon juice, like we mentioned in the beginning. And you can make cheese. So you'd heat the milk to a certain temperature. You'd add the lemon juice to it and then it will separate. It'll make a gel and then you have to cut the curds, cut the solid mass that it's become. And then you drain out the whey and you have fresh cheese.

• 32:05Alie Ward?

  Ha, done.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yes. And then add salt.

• 32:08Alie Ward?

  Of course. Lunar Crumpet, the one and only Ardi Schmitz and Sadie Bipan. Sadie asked, moon is made of cheese opinions? Do you get that question a lot?

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Not too often. I've heard it before about the moon being made of cheese. But from my knowledge, it is not made of cheese.

• 32:30Alie Ward?

  There you go.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  So that's.

• 32:31Alie Ward?

  Thank you for answering that.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  My expert opinion, yes.

• 32:34Alie Ward?

  We actually did interview a moon expert, a planetary geologist and a salinologist, the wonderful Raquel Nuno. And I'm going to play you a clip from her episode because every time I see the moon, I freak out now because of her, because of this.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  One of the cool things that I think, when I think about the moon and the impact that caused it was there was so much energy that collected from that original impact that formed the moon that the entire moon was just a magma ocean.

• 33:04Alie Ward?

  What?

• 33:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, just imagine the whole moon.

• 33:07Alie Ward?

  No.

• 33:08Speaker 04

  Just magma. Yeah, so that's.

• 33:10Alie Ward?

  What?

• 33:11Speaker 04

  That's the prevailing theory. And we have evidence for that. So.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  So it's just lava. The whole thing is just lava.

• 33:19Speaker 04

  Oh, my god. The moon was a lava ocean. It was a lava ocean. Here we are thinking it's cheese, but at one point it was habanero queso.

• 33:29Alie Ward?

  Becky, the Sassy Sea Grass Scientist in Hand the Bee in Sinclair, want to know, Becky asked, any basic tips or guidelines for how to tell if a delicious cheese should be exorbitantly expensive? Or if Whole Foods is just fooling us all? Like, bang for your buck? Because cheese can get pricey.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:52Alie Ward?

  But especially if you don't know what to get.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:56Alie Ward?

  Tips?

• 33:57Speaker 01

  There are certain cheeses that will be more expensive overall. Sheep's milk cheeses are often more expensive. Sheep produce less milk for a less period of time and there are just less sheep on the planet. So when you just think about the availability of the milk and the process it takes to create the cheese, the labor and all those things, that can raise the price. So anything made of sheep's milk is oftentimes more expensive. And then things that are aged longer can be more expensive. So if they're over a year old, that means that for over a year, some human somewhere was taking care of this cheese and that human needs to be paid for, for the work and the storage of the cheese.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  So all those things will add up over time. Smaller producers will also probably be some of the more expensive cheeses. Now, if you don't know your producers, you might not know that Blakesville Creamery is a small producer out of Wisconsin, but it is. And so therefore the cheeses might be a different price than sort of some other larger producers, just because of how supply and demand works in that respect. So educating yourself on where the cheese is coming from, you know, doing a quick Google search on your phone. If you're like, whoa, this seems really expensive, check it out. See if it's something that you're interested in learning more about and trying. And then quantity. Oftentimes people buy cheese with their eyes and not with the reality that you're, are you really going to eat all that cheese?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  And so if you buy a big hunk of it, it's going to be more expensive than a small piece. You might be... Nervous to talk to a monger, but if there's only a huge piece of cheese and you want half of it, just ask them to cut it in half for you and they should be able to do that for you.

• 35:41Alie Ward?

  See, then you get 50% off because you only bought half as much cheese.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 35:47Alie Ward?

  I think also when you understand what goes into it, then you're like, this is worth the price because this person had to baby this cheese, which is great context for really appreciating something of quality.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Or maybe they only have like 50 animals and they have that small herd of animals and only make 20 wheels of cheese a week and that's all they sell. You know, that's going to add to it too.

• 36:09Alie Ward?

  Right. And on that topic, Teresa Gleason wanted to know, so all those different flavors that are in cheeses, where do they come from? Is it something that cheesemakers add? Is it wild yeasts? Is it milk from different kinds of cows, goats, or sheep? Do the animals lend a lot of that flavor profile?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Great question. And the answer is 100% yes. So what the type of animal that it is, what they're eating, all will impact the flavor of the cheese. There are certain breeds of cows that have more fat in their milk. There are certain breeds of goats that have more protein. You know, there's different characteristics in different breeds. And so depending on what type of cheese you're looking to make, the breed will add to that experience if they're being conscious of that sort of attribute of the cheese.

• 37:00Alie Ward?

  And just a side note, the sweet looking, kind of tawny cows in the Alps that look way better in a flower crown than anyone at the Ren Faire, they're most likely an older breed of a brown Swiss cow. And they make a fair amount of milk. It's high in fat and protein. They're great for rich Alpine cheeses. Now, the patchy black and white dairy cow is a crossbreed and it yielded way more milk than other types of cows. And it really rose to popularity in the mid 1800s. There was a guy named Winthrop Gennery from Massachusetts, and he heard that a ship had a cow on board so the sailors could have milk. And Winthrop was like, whatever that is, I want one of them. Give me one of them

• 37:41Alie Ward?

  cows. And now, when you drive past black and white bovines, you point and say, Cows. And some people asked about ethics in cheese. Stacy Dow, Sam, both first time question askers, wanted to know. Stacy asked, when they were in grad school, they took a dairy class. They visited dairies around Western Pennsylvania and they were shocked at the differences. Some allowed calves to stay with mom. Some were immediately taken away. What's the best way in terms of an animal's experience to enjoy cheese? Is it a different animals? Is it different producers?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  That is a great question. It goes into, again, the story behind the cheese and how it's being made. There are positives and negatives to both situations where the animal stays with the mom or the animal leaves for cheesemaking. And if you are a artisan, specially produced cheesemaker, you know, looking to the environment, caring about your animals, then you're not removing the animal from the mom. You're waiting till the animal is done nursing and then the mom's still lactating. So cows specifically will lactate for a year, whereas the calves won't consume the milk for the entire year. They're moved to grass. And so then you have this excess milk that has nowhere to go.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  And so since it's so nutritious, you make cheese out of it. And that's sort of the beginnings of cheesemaking in a nutshell. They had too much milk, so they started making cheese.

• 39:07Alie Ward?

  For more on the history of cheese, you can listen to part one of this episode. That's the order they go in. A more esoteric question, Marissa. Scott Sheldon, Mallory A.B. and Pink Puppy wanted to know, in Scott's words, we gotta talk about the cheese rolling down the hill thing. Have you heard about this? A double gloucester cheese? What is cheese rolling?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's one competition where they have one wheel of cheese and they roll it down the hill and people run after it. And whoever gets the cheese first. People fall, people roll all the way down this hill.

• 39:41Speaker 05

  Everyone's on their bum at first. I've watched all the videos. Everyone's on their bum. And you know, they're so scared at the top. That's where they go wrong. Yes, that is your moment to strike there and then. You know, at the right top, where everyone's at their most scared, that's when you need to strike.

• 39:55Alie Ward?

  That was English, and I don't know what he was saying, but that's okay because I will never do this. I thought this competition might be like a pastoral affair with a cheese wheel bounding through alpine flowers, maybe scattering lazy bumblebees, but this shit is a bloodbath. This is not okay. So there's a place called Cooper's Hill in Gloucester, England, and it's a cliff. Let's be so for real right now. It is a cliff with grass. It is a 200-yard off-ramp into hell at a 45-degree average angle, but some estimates have the initial drop 60 degrees. That is so steep. Nearly every year, for what's estimated may have been hundreds of years,

• 40:39Alie Ward?

  people who have no amygdalas vault themselves down a death grade in pursuit of a single wheel of double Gloucester cheese. And what I'm guessing is respect and lifelong orthopedic issues. I don't know what they're after, but I think that cheese costs like 50 bucks. So it's clearly not just the cheese. But when the cheese falls, when it's released and it starts to roll, everyone's lined up waiting to chase it. It looks like if you had a bunch of tiny people on a green bedspread, and then you suddenly shook the bedspread and all of those tiny people somersaulted violently or simply tumbled skull over ankle for nearly two football fields

• 41:23Alie Ward?

  until a line of rugby dudes at the bottom caught their charging, bloodied, injured bodies. Whoever gets the wheel is not the spectacle. Someone gets the wheel, nobody cares. They are a footnote. But what we are here to see is alive human bodies flying like rag dolls and getting their bones disjointed. It would be impossible to calculate the number of concussions this. ...has produced. One guy this year, 2025, caught so much air doing a triple front flip at what's been estimated at 60 miles per hour. He landed with a bounce and I couldn't tell if he was one or two people because the limbs didn't make sense. No one's wearing helmets. At best, they might be

• 42:09Alie Ward?

  wearing an inflatable dinosaur costume, which pops the instant the cheese wheel rolls. Thousands of spectators catch this stuff from every angle and it just simply does not feel real. Evidently, it didn't feel real for that one guy this year because by some miracle of cheese, that man survived and he told people he was on mushrooms and he didn't feel a thing. Now, the Wikipedia for this event, and again, another gem, I just have to quote verbatim for you. Whoever is updating Wikipedia pages for cheese is really at the top of their game. But this says about this cheese competition, that Canadian competitor Delaney Irving won the ladies' race in 2023 despite finishing unconscious and only learning of her victory in the medical enclosure. So, the neighborhood around Cooper's Hill,

• 42:55Alie Ward?

  it gets jammed with tourists, cell phones strained for a glimpse, and ambulances are clogging the streets to take people away every year. The lucky ones that don't ride away in the medevac chopper that's standing by. And this tells me two things, okay? People love cheese and countries with nationalized healthcare systems produce braver individuals. Now, if this is giving you the itch to fling yourself down a mountain for the glory of the wheel, please first, listen to our episodes. We have one on concussions and traumatic brain injury, as well as one about why your knees hurt and why you don't want to have to get surgery on them.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Whoever gets there first wins the wheel of cheese. But there are also competitions where you're rolling the cheese like a bowling ball to see how far it rolls. So there are all sorts of things, and this has to do with the make process, right? It can't be wobbly, it can't be lopsided for these competitions. So it does get pretty competitive.

• 43:52Alie Ward?

  Is it, is it covered in wax? Or does it just pick, okay?

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yes, these are, these are covered in wax, yes.

• 43:59Alie Ward?

  I wasn't sure if they were like grass fed, just by virtue of rolling down a lot. I almost didn't finish this episode on time because I watched too many Gloucester cheese competition ragdoll people, even though it hurt me in the throat to even watch the videos. Also, in part one, Kyra and I chatted about American cheese, how it's not a cheese, and that it has the same anticoagulant, sodium citrate usually, as, uh, blood donations get to keep them from clumping. So let's revisit that. Um, a lot of people had questions about American cheese. Kieran H. wanted to know your opinions on it. TB33, let's settle this once and for all. And I know we covered this a little bit in part one, but Sarah Burkhalter, I thought, had a great question.

• 44:43Alie Ward?

  First time ask her, why is American cheese so good on burgers, but so crappy everywhere else? What is it about American cheese? Like, why is it? Why is American cheese?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Like, American cheese, like Kraft Singles, we're talking here?

• 44:57Alie Ward?

  How did it pop up into the cheese scene to say, I'm sort of cheese, but not really cheese, but it's also good on some stuff?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  I mean, the, the history behind American cheese goes back to a time where there weren't refrigeration, or there weren't ways to store artisan cheese. People were making cheese and losing it. And so scientists figured out a way to emulsify the cheese into this product and make it shelf-stable. That was the first step to it. And then from there, they, they began to create these other cheese products. Again, like vegan cheese, to me, it's not considered a cheese, it's, it's a cheese product. It's its own thing. It, I eat it on burgers. I'll eat American cheese in certain situations because it tastes really good. It melts really well. It's great on a grilled cheese. It's great anywhere it's melted. But it's very different than artisan, specially-made

• 45:50Speaker 01

  cheeses that are similar in style to that make process.

• 45:55Alie Ward?

  I agree with you that it's great on a grilled cheese. I think that vegan cheeses too melts in a way that is like, okay, it's really, um...

• 46:04Alie Ward?

  Bouncy in a way, you know what I mean? It's like taffy kind of, kind of fluffy. But speaking of American cheese and speaking of America, Sophie A. said, can we please talk about Reagan's cheese caves? Hope asked, please tell us about the cheese caves. Nicole Campbell, first time question asker, is there really a vault of cheeses under the United States? Have you heard of this? I don't know where this story came from, but I was talking to my nail tech, Shelby, who I love. And she was like, I said, I'm interviewing a cheese expert. And she said, that is so exciting. Are there cheese caves under the United States? And I was like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but I need to ask about this. What's going on?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Yes, there is a cheese reserve. It's part of the government's way to make sure that we don't run out of food. So it's a reserve of cheeses that are used mostly for government funded programs for food insecurity. Oftentimes cheese is used in that respect. But it's a, it is a reserve. It's in, I believe it's in Missouri.

• 47:05Alie Ward?

  Someone asked about Missouri, yeah. The cheese caves in Missouri. We're going to get to those in just a moment. But first, let's donate to a cause of the ologist's choosing. And this week, Kyra chose two, one for each part of the cheese duo episode. And they are the Cheese Culture Coalition, which works to create a more equitable and inclusive cheese industry for Black, Indigenous, and people of color through education and grant programs and via cheeseculturecoalition.org. You can find out more about their programs. You can donate, or you can even fill out a form to volunteer on their committees or their fundraisers. And the second donation is going to Team Up's Building Schools in Kenya, which Kira says is a great organization run by a dear friend of hers. And they work to ensure that Kenyan children receive the education they need and provide communities with easily accessible,

• 47:49Alie Ward?

  clean, and sustainable water resources. And you can find out more about them or donate at goteamup.org. So thank you to sponsors of the show for making those donations possible. How's your ponytail looking? Maybe like a little thinner than it used to? We've talked about this in our menopause episode. At some point, it's bound to happen to all of us. So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair, start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com/ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions,

• 48:34Alie Ward?

  and important safety information. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. If you haven't heard me gushing about Squarespace for years, it's an all-in-one website platform. Whether you're trying to grow a business you have or if you're just a baby business getting started, it has everything you need. That's where I secured my domain name. It helped me build a professional site. I can update it so easily. I've been using Squarespace since before Ologies existed. After procrastinating for years, I literally built my website in one evening. They have templates. They have flexible editing tools. Squarespace also makes it easy to share your work. You can book clients. You can get paid. They have built-in tools for scheduling and invoicing and email all in one place. Whenever someone I know needs a website,

• 49:19Alie Ward?

  whether they're a scientist that needs to put their work up or someone who's just starting a business, I'm like, dude, Squarespace. So head to Squarespace.com/ologies for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code OLOGIES to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You can do it. Being safer on the road starts with the person behind the wheel. That's Mazda's philosophy when designing every vehicle. Their proactive safety features help keep you more aware, connected, and engaged during every drive, which means your car does more than help protect you. It makes you a safer driver, which helps protect everyone. That's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. To learn more, visit MazdaUSA.com.

• 50:04Alie Ward?

  Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services.

• 50:08Alie Ward?

  Listen, sometimes you get out of your routine. That happened to me recently when I went out of town and I realized I forgot my Ritual Essential for Women 18+. It's a multi that I've been taking for years. And guess who landed in another country without them? Me. Didn't feel right. They contain nine key nutrients, two delayed-release capsules designed for optimal absorption. But Ritual, why do I love them so much? They have a team of scientists. They poured over thousands of studies to figure out what are common gaps that people need in their diet, but they don't actually consume. It's also designed to be gentle on the stomach. You can take it with or without food, which I love. Plus, I like that it looks like a tiny lava lamp. I tell you that every time, but it has these beads and oil, and it tastes like mint. Easy down the hatch. I usually take them in the morning.

• 50:53Alie Ward?

  And the reason why I've stuck with Ritual for so many years is because my schedule's all over the place. Sometimes I'm eating breakfast. Sometimes I'm running through an airport with one shoe. So instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com/ologies. That's ritual.com/ologies for 25% off your first month. Every time I record a Quince ad, I'm like, look at me wearing head-to-toe Quince. I feel like this is enough of an ad. I can just stop here. But if you're like, huh, what is that? Quince sells clothes and shoes and bags, even stuff for your house that are classic, well-made, and priced at 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they cut out the middleman. They work directly with ethical factories.

• 51:37Alie Ward?

  So you have luxury quality pieces without a luxury price tag. Perhaps this holiday season, do you know what it feels like to get a cashmere sweater as a gift? I don't, because I'm the one getting them for people, and so can you. And they're affordable, too. They also have 14-earr gold earrings, high-quality down outerwear, cozy gloves made of cashmere, leather bags. They have great bedding, cookware, luggage. So whether you're giving that to you or to someone else, you can give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or you can go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 52:19Alie Ward?

  And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, just let them know it was Ologies. It's the best way to support the show.

• 52:27Alie Ward?

  Okay, so let's dig into government cave cheese, as it was on the minds of patrons Mike Earl of Greymelkin, Laura Fitzgerald, Annie Horrible, Full Metal Knee, Sophia A., Caitlin Tindale, Hope, Anna Elizabeth, Kayla, Nicole Campbell, London Noel, Brittany Shaffis, Timmy H., and Elta Sparks.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's their caves. They're man-made caves, and they have rows and rows of cheese. They're not the most artisan-produced cheeses from the small producers, but they're they're large wheels that are there to serve the people who need it. And so, yeah, it definitely exists.

• 52:59Alie Ward?

  Okay, so I had definitely heard of government cheese. And I had friends whose families had it a lot growing up. It's sustained food insecure people for decades. And government cheese, also in American culture, has become a little bit of a shorthand for having to make ends meet. But I didn't know about the caves or the timeline. So the long story lasts long is that in the 1970s, the Carter administration helped out the dairy farmers in a recession by buying up their milk when they made too much. That way, the market wouldn't be flooded with so much milk that the prices dropped and the farmers went broke. So the government bought a bunch of the milk. How do you store millions of dollars of the milk? You make processed, velvety, tasty cheese. And then you put it in temperature-controlled limestone quarries.

• 53:43Alie Ward?

  You have just sitting around, perfect for stashing a bunch of cheese. So over the years, cheese has gone into storage in case of natural disasters or sudden food scarcity. There's this big stock of cheese. But then so much cheese started to pile up that in the early 1980s, President Ronald Reagan said, "Let's give some of this cheese away." And still, there's this in and out of buying up excess dairy and keeping it as government cheese. And the government cheese gets handed out to nonprofits and food banks and folks on welfare or food assistance and elderly populations. For now, at least it has been. And literally as I typed this up, As I'm about to put this episode out tonight,

• 54:25Alie Ward?

  news broke that the Trump administration has been sitting on a store of 500 metric tons of food meant for starving children in Afghanistan and Pakistan. But instead of distributing it to the starving children, the Trump administration has been doing nothing with it. And now it's about to expire this week, and so they'll simply incinerate it. I'm not sure if this is making America great again, as even Ronald Reagan, the guy who cut more than $22 billion from social welfare programs, was like, let's give out some free cheese to people who need it. But no, we have now reached an era of, we could feed starving children, but instead, let's just burn the food and the children. Anyway, cheese. So Daniel Schmanuel, Lizzie Martinez, Sarah, Dawn, and Eric Easton, Mike, Karen H.,

• 55:10Alie Ward?

  Wisconsinite Debbie Powers, A Softly Boiled Egg, Eileen Wang, and Chelsea Inner Dog Charlie, and Filipe Jimenez, in their words, asked, what's the weirdest but successful pairing you've tried with cheese? Some people asked about cheese pairings. Donnie Needham from New Zealand said, best things to eat with cheese, or more unusual but yummy, in New Zealand, we do a thing called mousetraps, which is bread grilled, spread with marmite, which is a yeast extract, topped with cheese and grilled again. Brian Shenanigan said pineapple and feta together are epic pizza toppings, and you will thank me later for it. Eileen Wang, Samwise Cheese Puff, both asked thoughts on cheese and apple pie.

• 55:52Alie Ward?

  Any cheese pairings that you are staunchly against or that you are an advocate for?

• 56:00Speaker 01

  So I'm into complimentary or contrasting flavors. So I often am drawn to adding sweetness to cheese. Cheese is really salty and often acidic, so something with a little bit of sweetness is contrasting. So it kind of makes things exciting. It makes the experience you're going back and forth between salty, sweet, salty, sweet. So with that in mind, I look to things like honeys, jams, fruits, the things that you see on charcuterie boards, they're not there by mistake. They're there because they go really well with cheese. So those are my go-to. Like, when I'm just snacking, oftentimes, it's just honey and cheese. I love honey, and it goes with all types of cheese, and there's all types of honey, too. Unusual pairings for me.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Chocolate isn't super unusual, but people haven't done it before. But chocolate and cheese go really well together. Specifically, dark chocolate and blue cheese.

• 56:51Alie Ward?

  Oh, what?

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Again, looking at the saltiness in cheese and the sweetness in the dark chocolate. But then there's bitterness in the dark chocolate. And salt mitigates the presence of bitterness in foods. So when you add the saltiness to the bitterness, it makes the dark chocolate more fudgy. And it just creates this really fun experience where you're having like a fudge and cheese situation.

• 57:13Alie Ward?

  What is that Norwegian? It's almost like brown and sweetened cheese. It's called like.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Gaust or ghost?

• 57:23Alie Ward?

  Maybe that's it. It's almost like a toast, like a gel toast or something. My friend Celia is from Norway. She's an amazing chef and she'll post pictures of it. And I'm like, I don't know what that is or what it tastes like, but I want it. It's like caramelized almost.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't pronounce it, but it's like. Jost. G J E T O S T. It's like they actually caramelize the milk to create the cheese. And so it tastes like caramel.

• 57:50Alie Ward?

  Oh, God, I bet that's so good. So, yeah, heetost is made with goat's milk, but it can also be called brunost. And ask a Norwegian or a Monger how you two can enjoy caramel breakfast cheese. Fran said in Switzerland, they learned that you should always have either wine or tea with cheese. So you don't get a cheese baby, i.e. a bloated tum. Of course, I follow this as much as possible because I love with tea and wine. But are there other beverages to pair? I mean, we're doing a wine episode. And I know that you also advocate for like sober cheese tastings, which I think is awesome. But pairings for beverages and cheese?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Definitely. So for wine and beer, the.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Most traditional sort of way of thinking about pairings are light with light and bold with bold. So if you have a light fresher cheese, then a lighter wine should pair well with it. Looking to fresh cheeses or soft ripened cheeses, like a goat's milk cheese and like a white wine, like from France, like a Sancerre or a lighter grape. And then looking to bolder cheeses with bolder wines or beer. So blue cheeses, Goudas, aged cheddars, things that have more robust flavor profiles can handle bigger flavored beverages.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  So you can do a dark beer or a red wine, something that has more going on because they can hold their own against one another. Other beverages that go well with cheese, kombucha is one that I go to. It's not your go-to beverage, but the vinegar and the subtle sweetness actually pairs really nicely with cheeses. Often times, ones that have more of a buttery texture to them could go really nicely with cheese. But I love pairing cheese with tea. I think that that is a great combination. I don't, I don't do it enough, but that's definitely like a hot tea and a cheese is very, they go really well together.

• 59:47Alie Ward?

  And it probably melts in your mouth a little bit if your mouth is warm.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  In the warm, yes, exactly.

• 59:53Alie Ward?

  When you're eating like chocolate and a warm beverage, it just like melts, you taste it more. And I can't believe I forgot to ask this before, but Joshua, Y Y Z, first time question asker, wanted to know, if there's ever been a study to confirm or disprove the effect of pasteurization on the texture, the taste of cheese. Is it real or is it just potentially lethal hippie dreck, they asked. So in part one, we did discuss that people say raw milk cheese has a highly superior curd texture by some accounts. But many patrons, such as Fairy Jessa, Tracy Redard, Erin Wood, Andy Pepper and David, wanted to know the scoop. So let's jump into it. Raw cheese, is it better or is it hype?

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Great question. There's been lots of discussions about pasteurization. I don't know if there's like scientific evidence around the flavor profile, but there are, you'll get two different camps in the cheese world where people are. Against pasteurization and just really focus on raw milk cheeses. And then you have people who accept pasteurization as a way of being. I'm in the latter, where pasteurization is a way of being in some ways. It helps control the risks of bad bacterias getting into our bodies. So when you pasteurize milk, you heat it to a certain temperature for a certain period of time. And that kills off the bacteria, both the good bacteria and the bad bacteria. So when you're looking at the camp of mongers and cheese professionals who

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  only go with raw milk, then they're looking at that from the perspective of it's killing off the good bacteria and therefore it's killing off the flavor. So the natural flavors in the cheese are being pasteurized or removed. And then when you pasteurize the milk, you have to add everything back to it. You can still have a full flavored cheese when it's pasteurized. You're just adding the cultures and the bacterias back to the curds after you've pasteurized the milk. So I don't think that there's a right or wrong way to be. But I think having a full understanding of what pasteurization is, is the best way forward. Because in America, we can't have anything aged under 60 days that's raw milk.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Anything that's made with raw milk has to be aged more than 60 days for us to consume in America. And that's because the FDA thinks that on day 61, everything is fixed. So there's some, you know, I hear the hippie and I hear the government interaction, but there is some safety measures that are included with it, but some things are just not super accurate. And so the FDA is a little bit outdated in the pasteurization rules. And hopefully we'll get that changed soon. But for now, just kind of learn to accept it and learn to appreciate the cheeses that are pasteurized for what they are.

• 1:02:41Alie Ward?

  What could be living in your lunch, you ask? So according to a 2024 piece in Scientific American titled, Is Raw Milk Cheese Safety Eat? Milk can become contaminated with harmful microbes like salmonella, listeria and E. coli that can survive the cheese. Production and aging process, which is why in pasteurization, they blast that milk up to 160 degrees Fahrenheit, or just over 70 Celsius, to kill it off. But yeah, some of the tiny tasty organisms also perish. And so you get a cheese that's safer, it's more reliable, but it's maybe lacking in some of the bacterial chaos that some fromageophiles really tend to prefer.

• 1:03:23Alie Ward?

  But from stinky to fresh, let's talk about the squeakiest cheese. So patrons Dawn W., Sarah King, Canadian Alia Myers, all echoed Sean O'Shea's request to, quote, "Tell me something about cheese curds," in their words. I can't believe I didn't ask this sooner. Lilly, Megan Walker, Erin, Danny Kirby, Lauren Cooper, Ashley Duing, Ara Victor, and several other people need to know. Lilly asked, "Why are fresh cheese curds the best? And what makes them squeak?" What's up with that?

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Good question. So to get to cheese curds, you're doing something very specific. You're not just separating the curds from the whey and then cutting the curds into pieces. But then those pieces are allowed to sit and firm up. And so they squeak. When you hold them, sort of like move them around, they'll make like squeaky, like rubbery kind of noises. And that tells you that they're fresh. The longer that they sit, the less likely that they'll make that noise, which is just a thing of freshness. It doesn't mean that you can't eat the curds anymore if they're not squeaking. But oftentimes, people prefer squeaky curds over other curds. And oftentimes, that's because they're more fresh.

• 1:04:38Alie Ward?

  Oh, I've heard so many people from Wisconsin be like, if they don't squeak, I don't want it. And if you've never had a squeaky curd, you have not had the best curds. So it's like, I feel like I need to go to Wisconsin because I don't know if I've had a squeaky curd. I can also ask my cheesemonger if they can hook me up with the squeakiest curds.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Because Wisconsin, they're, especially those producers, will make curds like the same day and sell them. And so you get them super fresh, like right from the creamery. And so they're, yeah, they're super squeaky.

• 1:05:07Alie Ward?

  Also, if that sound of the YouTube user MD Racer 51 open-mouthed squeaking cheese curds is making you want to find my location and harm me, please know I come in peace and you have what's called misophonia, which is a very strong aversion to the sound of chewing or other noises. And yeah, we have a whole episode with a misophonia haver and expert, Dr. Jane Gregory, about distracting sounds and noise rage. And there are no chewing noises in that episode because I care, and I promise. So if you have that, congratulations, you're not alone. But yeah, fresh cheese curds, they have protein and calcium structure, and it rubs on your tooth enamel, and it sounds like you're chewing on a bike tire.

• 1:05:50Alie Ward?

  Now, if you've never had that sensation and you need to, you can ask your cheese monger to try to hook you up with the freshest stuff, or you can gather your family and all of your belongings and move to Wisconsin. The choice is yours. Also, speaking of your local monger, I spoke of my fave, Rue. And if you ever pop in a milk farm in Eagle Rock in LA, you can tell them that Ollie G sent ya. But speaking of Rue, I asked them what their favorite cheese is, and they said, hmm, there are way too many beautiful cheeses in the world for me to pick a favorite. But here's my overly wordy thoughts on a great cheese to enjoy with some cherries or pluots during stone fruit season. So Rue says, "Ossu Iraty is a style of firm sheep's milk cheese." And don't worry about spelling that, we linked

• 1:06:33Alie Ward?

  it on our website. It starts with an OSS, don't worry about it. But it's made exclusively in the Pyrenees, and they wish that it had way better name recognition in the States. So again, we'll link it. It's OSSAU-I-R-A-T-Y. Okay, so that's one reason it doesn't have name recognition, because what are those letters? Either way, Rue says that they usually try to recommend this one to people who know that they like manchego, and they want to try something a little different because it's so good. And Rue says that "Ossu Iraty" tastes like brown butter and toasted hazelnuts, but some wheels are very floral on the nose, others have a really savory, meaty, umami thing going on, and they said it's a good

• 1:07:17Alie Ward?

  Snacking cheese and it's great melted in a quesadilla or a burger. And at Milk Farm in L.A., Rue says that sometimes when they're really lucky, they'll get a wheel of Osu Erati Estive. And the estive or estive, I'm not sure. It means wheels are made in the summer months because the farmers take their herds up to the higher mountain pastures where they can kind of beat the heat and they can chow down on tasty summer flora, Rue says. So the estive or estive wheels tend to be intensely herbal in a really fun way, but they're really rare to find. And with that story, Rue also introduced me to the word estive, meaning summer. And there's this rare derivative estivation, which carries the same idea as summering.

• 1:08:02Alie Ward?

  And Rue provided me with the example, "Every year, Elizabeth and I estivate in the Hamptons," said no one ever, Rue says. So Rue, thank you for essentially emailing me back and aside for this episode that I didn't even have to write or research. So now I know I want to get some stone fruit and I want to try some cheese that tastes like brown butter and nuts and flowers. And it's called Osu Erati. And also, great confirmation that cheesemongers have wonderful stories and everyone should have a friend who's a cheesemonger.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  So yeah, ask your monger.

• 1:08:31Alie Ward?

  I gotta ask my monger. So many people were almost, we have two questions left from, is that okay? I'm so sorry that this is the most

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Don't apologize, I love you.

• 1:08:40Alie Ward?

  Marathon, oh my God, okay. So many people asked, I don't even know if I can list them all. Lauren Allegra asked, "Is it true that there's an addictive chemical in cheese or do I just use that as an excuse to eat more cheese?"

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Another great question. So there are connections between eating cheese and the release of dopamine. So similarly to other activities and, you know,

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Some positive, some negative, but oftentimes people say things like cheese is addictive, like, you know, drugs or something. And that's because it really, you want to eat cheese, it actually releases dopamine, which makes you happier. So that's why when people eat cheese, they're actually having a chemical reaction where their dopamine is released and they're feeling happier and more go lucky, if you will.

• 1:09:32Alie Ward?

  And yes, it's true. In a 2021 paper titled "Casomorphins and Leanorphins Have Diverse Systemic Effects Spanning Gut, Brain, and Internal Organs," explains that, yes, the milk protein casein breaks down into casomorphins, and those can stimulate dopamine in the brain, just like anything that makes you feel good.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  So now we just, we can just use it as a positive excuse for eating more cheese. Like, if you're in a bad mood, eat a piece of cheese. Feeling depressed, eat a piece of cheese.

• 1:10:00Alie Ward?

  I think that technically makes you a psychiatrist.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:03Alie Ward?

  Doesn't it?

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:10:04Alie Ward?

  Are you now Dr. James?

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  I'm here to help you find your bliss with cheese, through cheese.

• 1:10:11Alie Ward?

  Well, last listener question, I think it's the one that's probably on everyone's minds. Mike, Kieran H., Debbie Powers, first time question asker, A Softly Boiled Egg, Grass, Eileen Wang, Chelsea and her dog Charlie, Debbie, first time question asker, Wisconsinite, cheese aficionado. What are your best tips for a charcuterie board? You're going to build a charcuterie board. Maybe you've got in-laws coming over the first time. Maybe you've got a date happening. Maybe it's your birthday. What are we going for?

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Definitely. So the big thing for me is diversity, to having a mixture of all the things. When I educate or give suggestions, because I'm always asked by family and friends this question, so another great question. Look for different types of cheese. So look for those, the styles we talked about. Look for something soft and something hard. If it's for a small gathering, just two cheeses is fine, one soft, one hard. If it's for a bigger gathering and you get, you know, four to five cheeses, then look for different textures, different colors, maybe one that has flavor or smoke added to it. And then from there, look to how you pair it. So what do you want to eat with the cheese and put that on the board? You can't really mess it up.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  But the rules of thumb are something crunchy, something sweet, something savory, something pickled.

• 1:11:28Alie Ward?

  Oh, crunchy, sweet, savory, pickled. Crunchy, sweet, savory, pickled.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  So having like olives, jam, crackers and salami, you know, and you're good to go. Those are like the things that I look to. I don't have like set rules. I think that it can be whatever you want it to be. If it's for dessert, add some dessert items to the board. If it's for an appetizer, you know, have less than if it's for dinner. But you can't mess it up. And the biggest thing I would always recommend is ask your cheesemonger. If you don't have a cheese shop near you, Whole Foods, they have certified cheese professionals. They're actually one of the biggest supporters of the certification program that is offered. So a lot of their employees become certified. So if you don't see them back there, there's someone there, they can help you.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  So definitely just ask for support in that way. Or reach out to me.

• 1:12:23Alie Ward?

  You're at Own Your Funk as well, right? People can follow you and see when you're doing events.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yes, Own Your Funk is my business name.

• 1:12:33Alie Ward?

  Is there a hard thing about cheese? What is the hardest part of your job? And I will ask you your favorite, but your least favorite thing about cheesemongering? Or your least favorite cheese?

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  I don't have a least favorite cheese. I never, never could do that to a cheese. I think just the sanitization and the cleaning aspects of the industry. You know, cheese is alive and so it's very vulnerable and it needs a lot of TLC, especially if it's in your home refrigerator. You know, you have to take care of your cheeses, people. If you don't, you'll see mold on them. The same thing goes when you work in a cheese shop. You have to take care of these cheeses every day and clean them and make sure every surface is always clean. And in between your cheeses, you have to clean your surfaces, clean your knives. So there's lots of sanitation that goes into cheese as a profession. So that's probably the least favorite thing that I have to do.

• 1:13:27Alie Ward?

  Is it true that you should store your cheeses in the paper they came in and not a Ziploc? Is it better to let your cheese breathe so it doesn't get too moist?

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Definitely leave the cheese in the paper that it comes in and rewrap it if you can. If you get a piece of cheese that comes in plastic. Then you might want to find new wrapping for that. In which case you can wrap it in, what I would suggest is wrapping in parchment paper and then putting that piece of cheese into a plastic bag. You don't have to seal the bag. You can just leave the bag opened. That just gives it a little bit of extra protection. But you still want to have some airflow, just so, because again, the cheese is alive. You don't want to suffocate it. When things are wrapped in plastic, they're actually being suffocated. So we do it for aesthetic reasons more than the health of the cheese. So definitely want to get rid of the plastic if you can. And then number one will always be cheese paper.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  So if you want to buy cheese paper, you can buy it online. Fermaticum is a great company that you can buy cheese paper from. There's other companies as well that you can find, or Beeswax is another one. So Beeswax, the lines of Beeswax that you can buy are great for cheeses as well.

• 1:14:35Alie Ward?

  Oh, like cloths that are almost impregnated with treats? Oh, and also great host gift.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 1:14:44Alie Ward?

  If you've got to go to someone's house, you bring them some cheeses and some of those. Perfect. I always am like, dude, what should I bring? And in some parts of the country, it's like, of course you bring a host gift. And in others, like in California, people are like, what? You know, I brought some beer, you know? Like, we're sweet, sweet idiots over here. But favorite thing about being a certified cheese professional and a hermologist?

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  I think the network of people. I think my favorite thing is that I get to be and work with some amazing people and some amazing animals and farms. And I'm really passionate about the land and the agricultural aspects of the industry. So to be able to know that my contributions are going towards the betterment of farms and animals and people, make it all worth it. And then I get to know them as my family and friends. And so that just intensifies the feeling of joy and the happiness I get to feel when I'm selling the cheeses or when I'm tasting cheese with people for the first time. And they're like, wow, this is amazing. That just is, puts me over the moon. Nothing makes me more happy than just sharing the love of cheese with others.

• 1:15:53Alie Ward?

  It puts you over the cheese moon.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:56Alie Ward?

  The cheese moon. This has been a dream come true.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:15:59Alie Ward?

  Dream come true. Best fromologist in the biz.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:16:05Alie Ward?

  And this couldn't not be a two parter. I mean, it's rare that I go into it being like, do you have several hours to talk to me about something?

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  It's what I do, talk about cheesedoke day. So this was just a regular day in the office for me. I loved it.

• 1:16:20Alie Ward?

  Okay, so we asked a salt of the earth person, two episodes worth of cheesy questions. And thank you so much, Kira, for being here, not only this week, but last as well. Thank you for letting me interview you for nearly two hours. You can follow Kira and learn more about her work, linked in the show notes or at our website, aliward.com/ologies/fromyology. Or you can follow her via ownyourfunk.com. And donations went to the Cheese Culture Coalition and team-ups building schools in Kenya. And we've got those linked in the show notes as well. We are at Ologies on Instagram and Blue Sky. I'm at Ali Ward on both. If you need any kid-friendly episodes, you can check out Smologies. Anywhere you get podcasts, Ologies merch is available at ologiesmerch.com. Thank you, patrons of the show, for all of your great questions that you submitted

• 1:17:05Alie Ward?

  via patreon.com/ologies. Erin Talbert admins our Ologies Podcast Facebook group. Avilene Malik makes our professional transcripts. Noelle Dilworth arranges time as a scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our managing monger and director of all things Ologies. Editors are Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. And lead editor of this one, with a sharp brain but a mild manner, is Jake Chaffee. Nick Thorburn made the theme music. And if you stick around to the very, very end of the episode, I tell you a secret, and I will make this one short because I feel like my asides were long. But you're only going to care about this if you maybe live in LA. But there was a bar called Shim Sham. My friend Aubrey had her birthday party there. And I went there and, number one, they have some sort of slushy situation with a beverage, which is tasty.

• 1:17:50Alie Ward?

  But the part that surprised me is Shim Sham has a photo booth. And it is some of the best lighting I have ever seen anyone in. I don't know what kind of magic their photo booth has. I don't know how their ring light is set up. I don't understand what's going on. But we were like, how does everyone look so glowing and flawless in this? And sure enough, I looked it up and people were like, if you get yourself to Shim Sham, make sure to take some glam shots in that photo booth. I don't know how they do it. Shim Sham, if you're listening, email me. What do you have going on? Okay, bye-bye.

• 1:18:31Alie Ward?

  Meteorology. Geology. Nephology. Seriology. Seismology.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  Fold in the cheese.

• 1:18:47Speaker 03

  What does that mean? What does "fold in the cheese" mean? What kind of day is it? It's a White Claw day. Grab a pack, grab your friends. Everything else in life can wait. Your friends shouldn't. Let's go. White Claw. Grab life by the claw. Please jerk responsibly. Heart's also with flavor. White Claw also works Chicago, Illinois.

• 1:19:04Speaker 06

  Real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect hire. Skills First Hiring helps you see talent others miss, like more than 70 million stars skilled through alternative routes. Let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage, because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why at tearthepaperciling.org. Brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.