Asinology (DONKEYS) with Faith Burden

Tall ears. Huge teeth. Underestimated wit. And vocalizations that would make a songbird envious. Let’s talk donkeys with researcher and Director at The Donkey Sanctuary, Asinologist Dr. Faith Burden. We cover pop culture donkeys, their road to domestication, how much they can carry, whether you should ever saddle up on a donkey, mule genetics, zoo sexism, how to care for a donkey, what their noises mean, milky baths, emperor gossip, squats versus donkey kicks, and why these beautiful beasts deserve all of our love.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

  This episode is sponsored by Seed. Bloating, irregular bowel movement, gas. When your gut is off, it gets your attention. Seed's DS1 is a three-time award-winning probiotic, clinically shown to improve regularity, reduce bloating, and alleviate gas so you can move and eat freely. Take better care of your gut with Seed. Get 25% off with code 25OLOGIES at seed.com/ologies. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. We have to say that. How's your ponytail looking? Maybe like a little thinner than it used to? We've talked about this in our menopause episode. At some point, it's bound to happen to all of us.

• 0:44Alie Ward?

  So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair, start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com/ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Ugh, trips are full of unexpected discoveries. Maybe you see a sea slug, or you find out that your friend still sleeps with a stuffed animal. But when it comes to your vacation rental, there should not be any surprises. When you book a Verbo vacation rental, if what you expect isn't what you get, Verbo Care has you covered. If something's broken or just not right,

• 1:29Alie Ward?

  Verbo will work to make it right. Plus, you get 24/7 live human support with every booking. Grab your stuffy, we're going on vacay. So book today on the Verbo app. If you know, you're Verbo. Terms apply. See verbo.com/trust for details. Oh, hey, it's that classroom desk chair that cracks your back perfectly. This is Ally Ward. This is Ologies. This is a show in which we cover one ology every episode. And friends, I know that you love donkeys already because we truly got like a tidal wave of questions for this one and happened to chat with the loveliest donkey expert we could find. This is such a chill conversation and cuddly and calming and informative. It was like sitting on a covered porch with a TV. And a plate of cookies you just keep eating while they talked about interesting

• 2:14Alie Ward?

  donkey facts. And this ologist is the director of research and operational support at the nonprofit, The Donkey Sanctuary, and has been there for over two decades researching, caring for, and advocating for donkeys. They're an author on dozens of donkey and mule research papers, as well as having a microbiological background, which we talk about. They were just made for this work and they love it. So we'll meet them in a minute, but thank you first to patrons of the show who make it possible. You too can join for as little as a dollar a month. And for free, we also have shorter, kid-friendly episodes of Ologies in their own feed. They're called Smologies, S-M-O-L-O-G-I-E-S, found wherever you get your podcasts. Ologies merch is available for your body at ologiesmerch.com. And you can always support Ologies by just leaving us a review, which helps so much. It gets

• 2:59Alie Ward?

  the show up in the charts and gets it seen. Each week, I kick this off by reading a recent one, such as this from Lori2474, who called Ologies charming, educational, and highly addictive. Treat yourself to an engaging conversation with experts at a level that doesn't belittle you or leave you lost in jargon. Also, right amount of swearing. I appreciate that, and that is affirming. Okay, asenology comes from the Latin word asinus. It means ass, which means donkey. Donkey itself may come from an old word meaning dull brown, but that's been debated. But ass, as in, your ass is gonna love this episode, came much later, and that was derived from the British arse, which came from a word

• 3:40Alie Ward?

  for tail, a rump. We do also discuss rumps in this episode, and I think you'll appreciate it. So, take a long drink of water, saddle up for big ears, milky baths, emperor gossip, squats versus donkey kicks, how much weight can a beast of burden bear, mule genetics, zoo sexism, how to care for a donkey, where to pet a donkey, what their noises mean, and heads up, we do have donkey noises in here, so do not be startled. They're happy donkeys. As well as what a donkey eats, what's up with those teeth, donkeys on film, and busting so much flimflam with researcher, director of research and operational support and nonprofit, The Donkey Sanctuary, friend to donkeys worldwide, and asenologist, Dr. Faith Burden.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Faith Burden and she/her.

• 4:45Alie Ward?

  You are all the way in the UK.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yes, indeed.

• 4:50Alie Ward?

  Where exactly are donkeys, do you know where are they from from?

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the donkey's ancestor is actually from East Africa. So the mountains and deserts of Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan. So a long, long way away from the UK or the US.

• 5:08Alie Ward?

  How long have they been kind of all over the world? At what point did people start saying, donkeys? I could get some donkeys over here.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  So, donkeys were first domesticated about 7,000 years ago, we think, in East Africa. And they then slowly made their way up to Egypt, where they were a really important part of Egyptian ancient society. And from there, they gradually spread across the world, particularly helped both by the Romans, but also various explorers. So, donkeys made their way to the Americas in about the 15th century. So, actually, their history with us is quite recent. But it all began in the deserts and mountains of East Africa.

• 5:57Alie Ward?

  So, yes, Equus asinus was domesticated from the wild African ass. And it's a stunning creature with this strong jaw. It's got a stout frame and this really beautiful pewter-colored, velveteen-looking coat. And yes, donkeys have been our friends and tools for millennia. According to researchers of the 2022 paper, "The Genomic History and Global Expansion of Domestic Donkeys," in the journal Science. Domesticated in Africa, went all around, came back to Africa. But before, donkeys made that world tour genetically.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  In ancient Egypt, donkeys were originally used for meat and milk.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  And then they started to become a working animal, but very much a well-respected ceremonial animal. So you actually can find a number of donkey skeletons that were buried along very high-ranking noble people. So it was a real surprise when they opened up a tomb not long ago that was dedicated, I believe, to Osiris. And in one of the king's tombs next door were donkey skeletons. So in Egypt, the donkey was very much associated with wealth and nobility and was a really respected and revered animal.

• 7:18Alie Ward?

  Okay, so there's at least all of you who want more info on this. So please see the 2024 paper, Donkeys, Genies, and Demons: Fantastical Creatures in Ancient Egyptian Ritual Texts and Funery Assemblages, which notes that the donkey was depicted in ancient tomb scenes since the Old Kingdom, which was roughly 5,000 years ago, and it represented an ambivalent creature that could either assist in the nightly journey of the ancient sun god, or it could be a malevolent force. It could go either way, like a cat or something that loves you and then tries to kill you. You mentioned that from the deserts. Is that why they have such big ears, like a fennec fox, kind of?

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So the donkey is adapted. Its ancestor is a desert-dwelling animal, so it has lots and lots of adaptations, particularly the ears, that's what we all notice. So they help not only to dissipate heat, but they're also fantastic for communication over really large expanses because in the ancestor's natural environment, donkeys don't live in herds. So unlike horses, where we all know that horses like to gather in herds, the donkey's ancestors live either alone or in very, very small groups. So they need to communicate, and that's why the donkey's bray is so amazing, travels

• 8:42Speaker 01

  for kilometers, but the ears are really important, too.

• 8:45Alie Ward?

  We're going to communicate to you more about their communication in a bit, but first, let's crunch some numbers. You now have a donkey sanctuary. You are the mother to donkeys, if you will. I'm a mom.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Mamacita.

• 8:59Alie Ward?

  How many donkeys are in your care?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  So in the Donkey Sanctuaries care, we have 6,200 donkeys that are in our ownership. About 4,000 of those are in our direct care. And then we've got 2,000 that live out in wonderful guardian homes that look after them in private homes. So we have thousands of donkeys. They're all amazing and it's such a privilege to work with them and care for them.

• 9:29Alie Ward?

  Where are their origins typically? Do you take in a lot of working donkeys that are retired or maybe that had been mistreated? I know that donkey welfare is like the cornerstone of your life.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 9:43Alie Ward?

  And so where are a lot of your donkeys from?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  A complete mix. So sadly, we still see lots of cases of neglect. So we still take in animals that have been abandoned or have been treated very badly. We also take in animals that have got significant behavioral issues that need rehabilitation, medical issues, and sadly, we do see the issue of donkeys outliving their owners. So donkeys live a very long time.

• 10:14Alie Ward?

  Really?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  They can live into their 30s. And unfortunately, sometimes their human carers can't look after them for their life. So we're trying to help people to understand that a donkey's lifetime is long and it's a big commitment. So we sometimes step in those circumstances. But certainly in Europe, there are not that many working donkeys anymore. Sometimes in tourism, sometimes in small scale agriculture. But most of the donkeys that come into our sanctuaries at least will have been companions and pets. But it's very different to the work that we do internationally with working donkeys.

• 10:55Alie Ward?

  Yeah, what is the difference there? Are there a lot of working donkeys that are maybe not treated fairly or not well kept?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  I mean, the vast majority of donkeys in the world are working animals that live in the global south. So those donkeys are essential to the livelihoods of the people that rely on them. So very commonly found in sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, parts of Central and Southern America.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  And those donkeys will be engaged in all kinds of household activities. And sometimes sadly, we do see donkeys that need help. That's often because of a lack of information. Or very often that the owner and the family are struggling for for income themselves. They're living tough lives as well as their donkeys. So it's often about helping provide support and education. Helping with basic things like foot care and making sure a cart works well for a donkey. But those animals are an absolute lifeline for those families.

• 12:01Alie Ward?

  Okay, just a little recap, donkeys have been domesticated for around seven thousand years. They are not big party herd animals and they are a huge part of economies around the world. But right now, donkey theft is an issue. And up to four point eight million donkeys a year die from harvesting hides to make this prized herbal medicine out of donkey gelatin. And Faith and the Donkey Sanctuary have been working on researching that and supporting legislation to protect these animals. But on a brighter note, you should also know that in some alpine regions, when baby lambs can't make it down a mountain into the lowland pastures, the shepherds have donkey nannies or mule nannies. And a mule or a donkey will wear like a pocketed smock and they'll carry the lambs down the mountain.

• 12:46Alie Ward?

  Like if you had cargo pants stuffed with baby bunnies to get them to safety. It's a beautiful thing. How did you intersect your life with donkeys? Did you have a a pet donkey? And then you're like, I'm in love with the donkeys. Cause they're so lovable.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  They are lovable and I've always loved animals from the moment I was big enough to understand what they were. But I visited the Donkey Sanctuary when I was seven.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  And I fell in love with the Donkey Sanctuary and their donkeys. But my life then took on a different path. And and I I never dreamed I'd work with donkeys. But many years passed and.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  I ended up then spending some time in America, in Tennessee of all places, working with mules and fell in love with them as well. And then in my early mid twenties, I saw a job and the rest is history. So that's well over 20 years ago now. So it's been a lifelong addiction to donkeys.

• 13:54Alie Ward?

  I just realized your last name is Burden and they are called Visa Burden. Did that, that must, people must talk to you about that all the time.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  They do.

• 14:02Alie Ward?

  I'm sorry.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  It was obviously a complete coincidence, but yeah, isn't it funny? Beast of Burden and I think it's called nominative determinism. And of course, donkeys are really linked with religion as well. So my first name, Faith, is somewhat linked too. But I just think it was destined to be from being that seven year old that fell in love with some long ears and, you know, a place, a wonder. And yeah, I could never change my name.

• 14:36Alie Ward?

  No, keep it forever. So yes, equids and donkeys have been the animals that humans have relied on for heavy work for thousands of years. And do remember when some folks cite the Bible as fact, like in a political context, that the Bible does contain a passage about a talking donkey. So setting aside the fact that a donkey started talking from a narrative standpoint, though, this biblical passage is about the abuse and exploitation of those less fortunate. And God saying to this donkey's owner who's flogging it, like, yo, be nicer to that donkey. You're being a dick. So yeah, just a casual talking donkey reference, but also defending the downtrodden. Who knew that was in there?

• 15:19Alie Ward?

  And so did you ever dream that you would be kind of, you know, the head of the donkeys?

• 15:24Speaker 01

  No, no, never, never. But what a wonderful place to find yourself. I'm a scientist by training. I've always been interested in the natural world and how it all works. So the science part of what I do is really important. Important and certainly that was always my main aim was to help people to understand donkeys and what they need from us.

• 15:49Alie Ward?

  Yeah. What kind of science were you studying or what's your science background?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  I was a microbiologist and a virologist. So originally my PhD was looking at infectious diseases that were transferred between people and animals. But I got a little bit tired of lab work, white coats and centrifuges became a bit tiresome. So I decided to take some time out and go and see what donkeys had to offer.

• 16:17Alie Ward?

  And she has a lot to offer donkeys, clearly, with over 50 published papers, including hits such as Objective Assessment of Chronic Pain in Donkeys Using the Donkey Chronic Pain Scale, and Belief in Animal Sentience and Effective Owner Attitudes are linked to positive working equid welfare across six countries, and the welfare and access to veterinary health services of mules working in the mountain trails of Nepal. Also, she's got papers about the donkey skin trade. She knows her donkey stuff on a global level and on a micro level.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And a lot of my early work with the Donkey Sanctuary was looking at infectious diseases, parasitology, nutrition. So it drew on much of my background, but then really the sort of behavior and welfare science overtook. And as they say, the rest is history.

• 17:10Alie Ward?

  Well, you mentioned how misunderstood donkeys are. And babe, that's why we got you here.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 17:17Alie Ward?

  Let's talk donkey myths. Because so many people are like, I know Eeyore or Shrek, but no idea what they're really like, or they're just know them as beasts of burden. So what's like some big flim flam that you have to bust as a Dr. Donkey?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Donkeys are stubborn or stupid. We've all heard those. Kicks like a mule or stubborn as a donkey. Donkeys are not stupid. And anyone that thinks a donkey's stupid has simply been outwitted by them. That's what normally happens. So we always judge donkeys.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  By what we know about horses. We're all brought up with western films and horses in battle and they're fast and incredibly expressive animals, aren't they? And then we think the donkey is like a small horse with big ears. And we can't understand why it doesn't go when we ask it to. We can't understand why it says no. And actually, donkeys don't run away from problems. That's part of their evolutionary background. Donkeys will stand and they will consider what's in front of them. So they will think, is it in my best interest to run away? And I might do that. But more often what happens is they either freeze or they fight.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Which again is that whole kind of misconception that donkeys can be quite feisty, they can kick, you know? It's absolutely natural behaviour for the species that they are, they're calm, they're thoughtful. And if you wanted to put your most precious cargo on the back of any animal, put it on a donkey or a mule. Really? Because it will be safe, because they're really, really calm and think about what they're going to do before they do it. Whereas a horse is, you know, it's long up the dusty road before it's realised there's nothing worse running away from.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  What are you running from? Nothing.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  So, you know, donkeys have just been judged by the wrong standards, really. And I'm afraid what we see, you mentioned Eeyore, and you mentioned, um, we've got Donkey and Shrek, and there are lots and lots of other depictions that probably start with Aesop's fables way back when.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  And they portray donkeys in that stubborn, slow, stupid way, or pessimistic, at least in the case of Eeyore.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  Not much of a house, just right for not much of a donkey.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  And we've all grown up with that, haven't we?

• 20:09Alie Ward?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  We've had that since the cartoon books. I'm sure some of your listeners will know the wonky donkey.

• 20:16Speaker 05

  He was a wonky donkey, wonky donkey, wonky donkey.

• 20:23Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  And it's just all of those terrible stereotypes about an ugly donkey that brays and is stupid. And, you know, we just set the wrong standards. The Egyptians knew far better the value of donkeys and the Romans, but sadly, we've somehow lost that in our culture.

• 20:42Alie Ward?

  You know, what about their emotions? Are they very affectionate animals? Or can you read the emotions of a donkey and kind of know what they're feeling?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so donkeys are really emotional if you know what you're looking for.

• 20:56Alie Ward?

  Hmm.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  So we always say that donkeys are very subtle in their behaviour, very often.

• 21:02Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And a really good example is that donkeys pair bond very strongly. So a donkey will often have one special companion for its whole life. And unfortunately, if one half of the pair goes, they will grieve about their lost friend. But similarly, they can also recognise donkeys that they might have met, you know, years, decades ago. And they can express the joy of being reunited. And there is nothing more wonderful than a joyful donkey braying, you know, really loudly.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  But also just showing that excitement. But very often in day to day, normal times, donkeys are quiet. They're, you know, patient and they don't move fast and they don't waste energy. And again, it goes back to their evolutionary background that these are animals living in deserts where the temperatures are, you know, in the forties. You don't waste energy, you don't waste water and you don't draw attention to yourself. Because otherwise you're going to be somebody's next meal. You know, it's important that we understand they do express themselves, but at the right time and in the way that suits them.

• 22:22Alie Ward?

  Is that bray that you mentioned, you know how for me, I don't have children. So when I hear a baby making noise, I think it's in distress and then I'll look and I'll be like, oh, it's playing, you know what I mean? Like, or if it's your own kid, I'm sure some people are like, I know exactly what that means. Can you kind of tell different emotions through the braying?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Definitely. So they have a huge spectrum of noises. So bray is the one that we know most, but there's also snorts.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And whistles.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  And they can mean different things. So friends greeting each other. You can tell when two males that don't particularly like each other meet each other. But also when they're trying to seek affection or food very often. And you can often tell which bray belongs to which member of the herd. So they're quite individual as well. And certainly our, our donkey carers that get to know their animals really, really well, you know, they could probably say, that's Alfred waiting for his, his dinner at five o'clock and we're two minutes late. So they are all individuals, but some of them are very noisy and they know how to express themselves.

• 23:41Alie Ward?

  I've seen those videos where, I think there's one in particular where a girl comes back to the farm, she's been gone for a bit and a donkey just freaks out, looks so happy to see her. Is that kind of common when you feel like you greet donkeys or when you've been away?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Donkeys know their primary carers really well and mules too get very attached to certain people and they will greet an individual and they will get incredibly excited about seeing that individual. Um it's not every donkey, it's not every relationship, but you do see it and you will also see if an animal has had to be given up by caring owners that then come and visit that animal, you can in certain circumstances see just such emotion on both sides to be back together again. And of course, that's all to do with, you know, donkeys are masters of social bonding and behaviour and and they are really good

• 24:44Speaker 01

  at communicating, not just with each other, but with us if we listen.

• 24:48Alie Ward?

  I've heard that some of them have good senses of humour. Do you ever get tricked by a donkey? And you're like, that was a very good one.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Oh, humour's a very sort of human trait, isn't it? And and we do try not to anthropomorphise, but there are occasions where I think a donkey at least enjoys getting a reaction. Um so I can remember when I first started to really work with donkeys, I used to have a big, you know, heavy jacket for the winter and it had elasticated toggles on the side. And donkeys would really enjoy pulling on the toggle and of course, they all got an ouch because those things really hurt when you get um stuck with them multiple times in a day. So I think, you know, there are examples of that and the donkey that opens

• 25:39Speaker 01

  the gate to let everybody else out, obviously there's an advantage to them, but sometimes you do wonder. Um they certainly enjoy the reaction that they're getting from us, I think.

• 25:51Alie Ward?

  I think that counts as humour. I feel like when someone's funny, you know they're smart and clever. So it's just cleverness.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Reality, I'm actually very fun.

• 26:01Alie Ward?

  Relaxed and easygoing. You mentioned mules and let us disambiguate because a mule, from what I understand, it is a hybrid of a horse and a donkey, but it can't reproduce. So does that mean every mule is just a one-off collaboration?

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:19Alie Ward?

  Why do some people have mules instead of donkeys?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Great question. So mules are the cross of a horse or pony mother and a donkey father. There is another one which people know much less about, which is the hinni, where the mother is a donkey and the father is a horse or pony, much less known about, much fewer of them, but still happen. So there is an uneven number of chromosomes between horses and donkeys. So horses have got 64, donkeys have got 62, which means that you get an uneven number, which means the resulting offspring is sterile. So that 99.99% means

• 27:05Speaker 01

  that a mule or a hinni cannot reproduce. So it's a really good question. Why do people have them? Mules possess hybrid vigor, both physically and mentally. So they have often increased size and speed as compared to a donkey, but they have the calmness and the toughness of the donkey. So in a mule, you've got an animal that can go longer distances, is normally very disease resistant, tends to carry more in weight than either a donkey or a horse,

• 27:46Speaker 01

  and has a speed between the two. They are also wonderfully intelligent, which is both an amazing trait for human beings, but has also caused some confusion and concern, I think it's best to say.

• 28:03Alie Ward?

  And mules, remember, that is the breeding of a male donkey, which is smaller, and a female horse, which is bigger. Mules have been around for at least 4,000 years. In a hinni, yes, that's a big old male horse impregnating a female, smaller donkey. So just like you would want a Yorkie dad and a Great Dane mom. And not the other way around. That's why we've got a lot of mules and very few hinnies. But the mix of genes in a mule tends to result in a really strong and a trainable animal.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  So mules definitely need kind and consistent training and handling. Otherwise, they can be tricky to deal with. But certainly, you know, the west of America was settled on the back of a mule, or at least behind it, because mules drew the wagons that took settlers across. But you will also have mules working in probably some of the toughest environments around the world. So the Nepalese mountains, so much of Everest Base Camp, the supplies that go up to the near mountains, they will be carried on mules because they're sure-footed,

• 29:17Speaker 01

  they're tough, they're strong, and they bring that best of both worlds. But you have to treat them fairly, and you have to be really consistent with mules because they don't tend to forgive and forget. They are clever animals.

• 29:34Alie Ward?

  So when you say treat them fairly, good care and and good food and all of that, and just respect for the mule?

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Exactly. Respectful that they will work well and hard for their owners, but they need to be properly treated and cared for. And a poorly handled mule is not something for the faint-hearted, that's for sure.

• 29:56Alie Ward?

  And if you're wondering what happens if you are rude or mean to a donkey, just know that they can kick with forces over 2,000 pounds and it speeds over 50 miles an hour or 80 kilometers an hour. Also, I was looking up donkey kick trivia and research, and most of the search results were fitness related. And I was like, oh, donkey kicks. Okay. It led me down this steep and treacherous path to a 2020 study in the International Journal of Medicine and Health Development titled, quote, "Effects of Six Weeks: Donkey Kick and Squat-Resistant Exercises on Gluteal Adiposity, Muscle Strength, and Muscle Bulk of Young Nigerian Female Adults." A randomized controlled trial. And it was authored by doctors from the Department of Medical Rehabilitation at the University

• 30:41Alie Ward?

  of Nigeria. But this paper begins, "Rounded, protruding gluteus have been asserted to be an important feature of feminine beauty and self-image. Currently, there is a large influx of gymnasiums to achieve this end, as claimed by gym operators amid the dearth of literature to support their claims." Now, the authors, they did feel that the setup needed further context, adding, quote, "The round, protruding gluteus signifies beauty, power, poise, and physical strength, especially among young women. The size and shape of the buttocks are important attributes of feminine beauty. Some celebrities, especially in the movie and music industries, have risen to fame owing to their body image." So, I mean, good questions.

• 31:24Alie Ward?

  So this group, they recruited 111 females aged 18 to 30. They measured their butts, and then they assigned them randomly to a control group, a squats group, and a donkey kick exercise group. And you're like, "Tell us everything. I'm going to tell you everything." Okay, so they found that significant gain in gluteal muscle was recorded in both the squat and the donkey kick group, clearly not in the control group. However, the squat group found significantly more muscle gains than the DKG, or donkey kick, group. So more muscle, but also one paragraph, shockingly, and yeah, I read a lot of this, seemed to contradict so much fitness advice I've heard, that you can't spot reduce in terms of adipose

• 32:09Alie Ward?

  tissue. But this 2020 study asserts that both squats and donkey kicks significantly reduced adipose tissue, fat tissue on the buttocks, and, quote, "This may be attributed to the exercise-specific induction of fatty acid oxidation at the gluteal region, which is required to meet the energy demand of the exercise." They say, "This result corroborates with other studies involving high-intensity resistance training." Okay, so there's information on your butts. It's your butt. You do whatever works for you. You have that butt look and feel exactly as you want it. Either way, it's a great butt. But just know scientists are out there unraveling all kinds of mysteries.

• 32:51Alie Ward?

  You know, given your, your cell biology background too, do you ever see news reports that come in like trying to CRISPR a mule that can breed?

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's often the thing that's brought up or cloned mules or, you know, can we design this ultimate equid? But actually, nature itself is really clever, isn't it? And I think, you know, mules have to be bred because they're wanted and, and they have a purpose. And I think people that really value mules understand that they can't have an offspring, but they're worth it just for what they have in that hybrid vigor.

• 33:33Alie Ward?

  Any major updates on this, you ask, other than all the cloning they did on racing mules a few decades ago? Well, there was a 2025 paper in the journal Animals, and it was titled "Current and Emerging Advanced Techniques for Breeding Donkeys and Mules." And it kind of reported with a bit of a sigh that despite significant progress in the last decade, standardization of protocols for gamete conservation and embryo transfer are still required in long-eared equids, meaning I don't think anyone's out there doing CRISPR on mules. I'll let you know, though. Also, yeah, we got mules and we got ligers. And a liger is a tiger-lion hybrid, but the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger, also called a tigris, which seems unnecessary.

• 34:18Alie Ward?

  But there are hybrids from a female lion and a male tiger, and those are called tygons. Oh, so there's another new word. And the way to remember those is that the male animal comes first in both of those poor mantos. Even though the female grows the thing and it does the birthing, also, female ligers and tygons can sometimes reproduce, but the males are always sterile. But it's asinine, back to asinus. And when I think of a donkey, I always... Also, I can't help but think of mini donkeys because I've seen them and they're tiny and adorable. But when it comes to the size of a donkey, what's going on with mini donkeys? Where do those come from? Are they doing okay? What's the deal?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  They're doing great. They're very popular. They are very, very popular at the moment as pets. They are believed to have originally been bred in Sicily and Sardinia in Italy. And particularly for the tiny, tiny little tracks that you find in those rather arid environments. Since then, they've become exceptionally popular pets. And they are wonderful, but they do, if they're not bred carefully and properly, they can suffer from issues associated with trying to breed too small. So they can get dental issues, they can get foot problems, they can have issues giving birth because of the size, but they are cute.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  And you can get mini mules. So my personal equid is a miniature mule. And he is about the same size as a mini donkey. But of course, we can get donkeys and mules, you know, 16 hands, 17 hands. They come in all shapes and sizes.

• 36:06Alie Ward?

  I didn't know this, but one hand is four inches or just over 10 centimeters. And the height of a horse or a donkey, it starts at the ground and it goes up to the withers, which is right between its shoulder blades. And yeah, hands is a unit based on thousands of years of using your hand, or a man's hand really, as a ruler. And that's called anthropic measurement. And it just, it strikes me as so weird that we just use a body part as a measuring tool. But then I remembered, I'm five foot five, five foot feet or- 16.25 hands. So yeah, we should all be using the metric system, but America has a lot of problems, so that's low on the list.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  The mini ones are really fun and loving animals.

• 36:51Alie Ward?

  They're very adorable. When you say you're personally- Do you have one that's like a pet or do you have like 50 that's a pet? How do you, how do you do it?

• 37:01Speaker 01

  So I have two of my very own. One is a pony and one is my miniature Mule Monty. So he's been with us for nearly 20 years now and, and he was a little bit of a behavioral challenge, shall we say, when we first got him. But yes, he's taught me a lot, that's for sure.

• 37:20Alie Ward?

  Oh, has he kind of calmed and settled in as he's felt more secure?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's amazing. He's a great example of mules love one person. And once they trust one person, he'll, he'll let me do anything for him. But my husband is a whole different situation. But it is that lifelong connection with donkeys and mules that they become part of a family. And I think that's what's so important when we see how donkeys and mules serve communities, but particularly families all over the world. They are a really important part of that family setup. You know, they might bring the drinking water. They might take the kids to school.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  They'll help harvest the crops and they are just such a valued family member. And that works well for the donkey and for the, the family.

• 38:17Alie Ward?

  Right. I mean, everyone, you have a, a dog or a cat and they're a family member. My dog doesn't even do anything other than just be cute. And that's fine. That's all she needs to do.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  And that's fine, isn't it?

• 38:29Alie Ward?

  Yes.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 38:30Alie Ward?

  And if she were to come back with groceries, I'd be like, wow, that's even better, you know?

• 38:36Alie Ward?

  Can I ask you some listener questions?

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Please, yeah, love to.

• 38:39Alie Ward?

  Oh, my God, okay. They had one million. But before we ask just a fraction of those one million, let's donate to a charity of Faith's Choice. And this week it's of course the Donkey Sanctuary, which seeks to create a world where every donkey has a good quality of life and they use world leading expertise in donkey welfare. They've designed targeted solution to meet the needs of these animals and they bring together over 400 welfare experts for rescuing donkeys, shaping their behavior and Collaborating with individual owners and communities. They also perform life-saving surgical techniques and training of vets globally. And the Donkey Sanctuary improves the lives of over four million donkeys worldwide every year. So a donation will be going to them. And thank you to sponsors of the show for making that donation possible. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

• 39:23Alie Ward?

  If you haven't heard me gushing about Squarespace for years, it's an all-in-one website platform. Whether you're trying to grow a business you have, or if you're just a baby business getting started, it has everything you need. That's where I secured my domain name. It helped me build a professional site. I can update it so easily. I've been using Squarespace since before Ologies existed. After procrastinating for years, I literally built my website in one evening. They have templates, they have flexible editing tools. Squarespace also makes it easy to share your work. You can book clients, you can get paid. They have built-in tools for scheduling and invoicing and email all in one place. Whenever someone I know needs a website, whether they're a scientist that needs to put their work up,

• 40:07Alie Ward?

  or someone who's just starting a business, I'm like, dude, Squarespace. So head to Squarespace.com/ologies for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code OLOGIES to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You can do it. Peppa Pig is your preschooler's best friend. Give the gift of bike riding confidence this year and help Peppa learn to ride her bike. Kids can imagine learning to ride a bike with the Ready Pedal Go Peppa Bicycle Playset. Put Peppa's helmet on, attach the push stick to her bike, and push to make her pedal. Ready Pedal Go Peppa and more from Peppa Pig are now available at all major retailers this holiday season.

• 40:51Alie Ward?

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• 41:36Alie Ward?

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• 42:22Alie Ward?

  Okay, so patrons can sign up via patreon.com/ologies and submit questions before we record. You can join for as little as a dollar a month and it supports the show. So let's hear some questions, starting with, oh, Fernando Lopez Haro says.

• 42:37Speaker 05

  Hi, first time question asker Fernando Lopez Haro from Mexico. Big fan of donkeys. I was wondering, when in evolutionary history, did donkeys develop the ability to sweat? And how different is their sweat to ours?

• 42:51Alie Ward?

  Do you know anything about donkey sweat?

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Interesting. Donkeys tend to sweat less than other equids. It is something that you see. Now, in certain environments, you'll have horses, mules, and donkeys all together. And donkeys don't tend to sweat anywhere near as much. They will, but it tends to be at much higher temperatures. And that is because of their desert evolution. So they don't tend to trigger that response until much later than most other species. So they preserve their water.

• 43:25Alie Ward?

  Yeah, that makes tons of sense. Luke Spaddy asked if you find a lot of donkeys in ancient texts? And it sounds like yes, you do. Susan said. Hi, my name is.

• 43:37Speaker 03

  Susan, and I live in Seattle and I love your show. My question is that I read donkeys communicate by blowing in each other's noses. Is that true? And if it is true, what kind of information do they communicate?

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Do you ever see donkeys blowing each other's noses? Yep, so they will definitely blow gently on each other's noses or on a hand that's offered to them. And they also have a reaction that's called the phlegm reaction, which is where they curl up their top lip. And very often you'll see people posting it as something cute or funny. That's the donkey getting smells into its olfactory system. And it's just something that they do to make sure they draw in as much smell as they possibly can. So the sense of smell is really important to donkeys, not least because they're territorial.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  So they leave markers, scent markers, to let others know who they are and what they're up to.

• 44:41Alie Ward?

  And so this phlegm reaction looks like a donkey is baring its upper teeth. And that word phlegm means to bare the upper teeth or to look spiteful. But it helps the donkey push scents into the ramo nasal organ or Jacobson organ to figure out what it is they're smelling and what it all means. And I've mentioned this organ before, like in the ethnosynology episode and gustitology episodes about domesticating dogs and the sense of taste. Those are two different episodes. And how I have a thirteen year old daughter, Gremlin, who is a dog, and she will chatter her teeth, concentrating whatever she tastes something new she's trying to figure out. So it's the same things.

• 45:23Alie Ward?

  Sometimes the taste she's trying to figure out is pee, her pee or another dog's pee. And yeah, I let her sleep in my bed. Next to my face and I try not to think about it. Speaking of their mouths, Olivia Lester wanted to know, why do they wiggle lips side to side? And Peter Shai said that they watched a burrow in Death Valley, take a big bite out of a pineapple cactus, chew it up and deftly spit the spines out intact. Are their mouths especially tough or are they just that talented?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Both. They are tough and talented.

• 45:55Alie Ward?

  Really?

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Is the answer. So again, they're a desert adapted animal that feeds normally on scrubby, thorny acacia trees, which are really woody, full of thorns. Their noses, as your other listener asked, why do they move around? They've got really mobile muzzles, which is actually there to try and avoid the thorns and, and the nasty bits. But they are really good at getting rid of what is not good for them. Because in the desert, they don't have rich pickings. So it's not like horses on, you know, wide open plains with lots of grass. Donkeys might have one shrub that they've got to get everything from for that day.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  So they do have these lovely mobile muzzles, which do a great job of sorting out thorns and, and nasty bits of things like those cacti.

• 46:51Alie Ward?

  And they don't get cut inside their mouth?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Very rarely. They're really, really clever at finding out the bits. And they have an incredibly powerful jaw. If you think about the head of a donkey, it's much bigger in proportion than the head of a horse to the body. And that's because they have a really muscled and heavy jaw to be able to eat woody plants and shrubs, not just grass. So they, they love grass, don't get me wrong, but a tree or a shrub, that's fine as well for a donkey.

• 47:25Alie Ward?

  That's so cool. Patrons Lizzie Martinez and Kelsey Fant had donkey mouths on the brain. Speaking of teeth. Emily Schrader wanted to know, what was the evolutionary need for such predominant front teeth? And then they want to preface, no judgment, they are cute. Elise Bostic, their child Gabe, wanted to know, why do they have teeth like humans? So yeah, they're front little choppers.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  So they've got those front choppers, those incisors, and they're there to pinch at the grass or the tree or the bush. But also further back, they've got the most amazing molars that grow constantly throughout their lives. And those molars are there to grind up that wood and that grass. So what you can see at the front is only the tip of the iceberg. These guys have got the most amazing dentition at the back. And it does a fabulous job of grinding up those really quite tough plants. So you see the nice smiley bit at the front, but I promise you, there's far more going in behind there.

• 48:30Alie Ward?

  Do you ever have to brush donkey teeth?

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Very rarely. So they do need dental care. So domesticated donkeys should have their teeth looked at at least once a year by a vet or another professional. And because they're domesticated, sometimes they need some help with sharp points that come just through normal grinding. And very, very occasionally, they might have a medical reason that they need their teeth brushing. But let me tell you, it is not an easy job. Even with mint flavored toothpaste, brushing a donkey's teeth is not something that I would wish on anyone, quite honestly. So they're perfectly fine normally otherwise.

• 49:11Alie Ward?

  I imagine having to get one of those scrubber brushes that you use for like pots and pans, just a long handle.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Best not to.

• 49:18Alie Ward?

  Best not to.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:20Alie Ward?

  Speaking of teeth, a lot of people had a question about an internet video they saw or firsthand experience. Pam wanted to know, they said, my neighbor had to sell her donkeys because they were picking up her newborn calves in their mouth and carrying them? Is this normal? Heather Crane and Ally Words wanted to know about the internet donkey that bites little goats on the back and carries them around when they get into his pen. Is that normal in, in nature?

• 49:50Speaker 01

  This is unfortunately a normal donkey trait and one that is not funny. It's actually really serious when you see those, those videos. So donkeys are cute and lovable and we all think that they are gentle. But as I've said, donkeys have quite an adapted fight response. And if something is in their territory that they don't perceive as belonging in their territory, they will try to get rid of that animal. And unfortunately, the donkey carrying around the small goat or the lamb or the dog, that isn't funny. That's a donkey actually displaying quite aggressive behaviour, normal behaviour, I have to say.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  And that's why my experience would always say, do not put smaller animals with donkeys unless you have introduced those animals incredibly carefully. You do see circumstances where donkeys live alongside goats, sheep, but it's often a baby is born, so you get a kid goat or you might get a lamb. Donkey doesn't know where that's come from and it may attack the animal. Um, so yeah, what looks cute is actually not, I'm afraid.

• 51:13Alie Ward?

  That's not just play behaviour.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Not at all. No, that's the donkey's evolutionary fight response. Cause we have to remember that wolves in their environment or, you know, other animals are a threat and are cute. The domesticated donkey has only had seven thousand years to overcome that. And of course they haven't. So we do recommend people are really careful with donkeys and other livestock and pets.

• 51:42Alie Ward?

  Is there a way to introduce another pet or animal like on the other side of a fence and let them get to know each other?

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can. And that's what we would always advise is somebody lets the donkey see the animal frequently and get used to it. Sometimes donkeys will decide that that animal is one of them and that's fine. I would always be careful, I have to say. I think if a companion starts to show that they're not quite right, maybe they're poorly, maybe they've had a, you know, a funny reaction to something, I think you've just got to be careful. Cause the donkey isn't doing anything wrong.

• 52:21Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  And we get lots of calls about donkeys that people don't want anymore. Cause they were cute and cuddly and then they attacked the neighbour's dog or the new lamb. So, but the donkey's just doing what nature intended it to do.

• 52:35Alie Ward?

  Yeah, donkeys are gonna donkey.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  And, you know, people do use that trait for human benefit. So you will see guard donkeys. So guard donkeys are often used in America, also in Australia and other parts of the world where they're kept with flocks of sheep or goats and they protect them against wolves and coyotes and predators. And that trait then becomes valuable to humans.

• 53:02Alie Ward?

  I feel like people underestimate how smart and fierce a donkey could be.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:07Alie Ward?

  So I could see that being very advantageous, almost like a sleeper donkey that you're like, oh, whoa, I thought I could mess with that. What about play? So we know that picking up another animal is not play, but do they like to play games? Ashley Mars said, it seems like donkeys have a greater need for play than horses. What are their favourite enrichment items? And Heather Livingston, Canadian gal eating dog hair for a living, Lily and Bat Reg chief both wanted to know about this.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Ah, great question. Donkeys love to play. Big dog toys can often be quite popular. They also really love rubber items. So things like a bucket made out of old tyre rubber that's designed to be, you know, have feed in it for the donkeys. Very often that's their favourite toy. Tug of War is a very common game with particularly boy donkeys, two boy donkeys.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  They like balls, so old footballs can be very popular. They really like grabbing, you know, good, solid, safe items, throwing them around. They also will very often steal. Grooming brushes to play with and ropes and things like that. So basically anything that's big enough to get in their mouth but safe and they can also enjoy enrichment. So we might provide our donkeys with safe branches from trees or, you know, items that we've smeared something that smells really good. So they like quite strong tasting and strong smelling things. So actually, a lot of the items that you've got around your, your barn or your yard

• 54:48Speaker 01

  are pretty good play items. Just got to change them.

• 54:52Alie Ward?

  Hmm.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Donkeys like novelty. Leave the same toy in with them for the whole year. They won't play with it after a day or two.

• 54:59Alie Ward?

  Really?

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Swap it in and out and you'll have very happy donkeys.

• 55:05Alie Ward?

  Oh, two donkeys playing tug of war. I'm sure that you have seen it a lot, though.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  It never gets old. I love it. And I don't know what they're called in America, but we call them wellies, Wellington boots.

• 55:17Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  And rubber Wellington boots with no metal pieces, the ultimate donkey toys. So when your boots have got holes in them, you can pass them safely on to your donkeys and enjoy watching them.

• 55:31Alie Ward?

  What about baby donkeys? Are they the cutest things in the world? Melissa Quinn wanted to ask what the flip is up with their weirdly variable gestation period. Is it a feature or a bug?

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Your listener is absolutely right. It can be anything from 11 months to 13 and sometimes longer.

• 55:49Alie Ward?

  What?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  So donkey jennies just seem to have this ability to hold on to their foals until they're ready and they feel safe. So it is widely variable and they give much subtler signs of being ready to have their foals than horses. And it's again, an evolutionary adaptation. So they probably would just hold back until food was more plentiful or until they felt they were safe away from predators. But we will often see it when neglected and uncared for donkeys come into our care that are already pregnant, that they'll wait until

• 56:34Speaker 01

  they feel safe and secure, often longer than we expect. You know, they've got to feel ready and then in the dead of night, the foal's born and there is nothing cuter than a donkey foal. They are gorgeous.

• 56:48Alie Ward?

  They're kind of gangly, right?

• 56:50Speaker 01

  They're tall, they're gangly, they're very fluffy. That's always the surprise of donkey foals is how deep their fur is and how lively they are as well. So donkey foals are just full of stuff and nonsense and love careering around. Donkey mums tend to be quite calm and patient, but yeah, donkey foals are just a delight. Can't get anything better.

• 57:16Alie Ward?

  We had a few people, Jill Burnham, William Russell, Hannah Cattoriano Hudson and Charlie W., first time question asker. Charlie asked, I've heard that donkey milk is similar to human milk and might be good for lactose intolerant people. A lot of people wanted to know, why is their milk like humans? And we did a cheese episode recently where we talked a little bit about donkey cheese. Have you ever had donkey milk? What is, what's going on there?

• 57:43Speaker 01

  I haven't had donkey milk for some good reasons. So donkey milk is biochemical profile is similar to human milk and, and probably more similar to human milk than other mammals. There's been a long history of people believing that donkey milk was both good to drink, but also to bathe in. So Cleopatra bathed in ass's milk.

• 58:09Alie Ward?

  Just a heads up, the history does get cloudy here, but it's fun. It's horrifying and it's fun. So yeah, Cleopatra was said to have bathed in donkey milk and washed her face with it. But other history nerds assert that a later royal Nero's wife, Papaya, was the one who was known for this milk ritual. Honestly, this woman, a Duncan ass milk was like the least salacious thing about her life. Because this wife of Nero, she reportedly cheated on one husband with the Roman emperor Nero, who had killed his mother for the throne and who executed his former wife, who was also his stepsister. And then later- Killed his son with Pepea while they were on a fishing trip. And Pepea herself may have died at her own husband's hand.

• 58:54Alie Ward?

  And by that, I mean foot, because he allegedly kicked her in the stomach to death. So I was like, just trying to look up donkey milk baths and being like, what the fuck is happening here? People like horrifying emperors, but still, why the donkey milk? And turns out the reason why people with money smeared donkey butter on themselves is kind of simple drugstore chemistry. So let's have a look at the 2015 paper Epidermal Permeability Barrier in the Treatment of Caritosis Polaris, which notes that the efficacy for lactic acid in helping exfoliate and replenish skin is known.

• 59:35Alie Ward?

  So like, if you've ever gotten like little bumps on the back of your arms or just in general on your body, lactic acid can help that. And we learned that lactic acid in our recent microbiome episode is formed when milk sours or ferments. The lactose turns into lactic acid. But if you don't have a donkey in an empire, you just go get yourself some moisturizer with lactic acid in it to make sure that your skin bumps go away and you keep things fresh.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  So we're, you know, we've got a long history of donkey milk. But many of the donkeys that produce donkey milk don't have the best life. So donkey mothers tend to only produce a very small amount of milk. And, you know, that milk is very, very highly priced and very expensive. But donkey milk production systems, not all of them, but some of them are not welfare minded. And donkey cheese, again, is quite a sort of popular thing. But it takes so many liters of donkey milk to make a tiny amount of cheese.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  So that's a lot of foals that are not getting to suckle from their mom to make that cheese. You know, it has scientific basis and we know that the infant's hospital in Paris in the

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Eighteen hundred used to have donkey jennies alongside to feed small babies that couldn't feed from their mum. So there's a long history, there's good science, but welfare is not always at the heart of the industry. There are some good small producers that we've worked with to try and improve their practices. But where there's a profit to be made, often animal welfare isn't the primary importance.

• 1:01:26Alie Ward?

  I didn't necessarily want to eat donkey cheese, but now I actively don't want to eat donkey cheese. So that works out well for me, I think.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:01:34Alie Ward?

  Um, you've mentioned newborns and I've seen this thing where they have fairy feet. They have what looks like blubbery fingers on the ends of their feet and it is cute and ghoulish. But can you tell me a little bit about that and a little bit about their hooves?

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  It does look something like Halloween, doesn't it? So the fairy feet are there at birth, they very quickly go. But that's an adaptation to make sure that the Jenny isn't hurt during birth. So it's a soft covering of the donkey foals, otherwise quite solid feet that could do a lot of damage. But they do look quite ghoulish. Donkey feet, apart from those first few hours after birth, are amazing. So they again are highly adapted to the environment that they come from. So very tough, very rarely need shoes putting on, unlike horses. But they are adapted to dry conditions.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  So when we see donkeys kept in temperate climates and where, you know, it's damp underfoot. They get lots and lots of medical problems from being in that environment. So that's one of the biggest issues that we face with donkeys around the world is. Weather and underfoot issues that cause lameness and major hoof problems.

• 1:02:56Alie Ward?

  Do they tend to get infected or are their hooves wetter than they kind of would be otherwise? And so they're they're more porous or something?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  They most certainly are. So we always describe donkey feet like sponges. So if you look under a microscope at a horse's hoof material versus a donkey's, the donkey's is much more open, will soak up much more water, which is great when you're in the desert because you need to soak up whatever droplets of water are available. But if you're a donkey living in the southwest of England, where I am, we have lots of rain. If you're not careful, those feet can get waterlogged and that leads to infections. So you get soft, crumbly feet, you get nasty bacterial and fungal infections. So top tip for donkey owners is please, please make sure your donkeys get some

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  dry standing somewhere every day. Areas that have got low rainfall are brilliant for donkeys, but anywhere that gets lots of rainfall, particularly if it's warm as well, that's donkey foot nightmare time, I'm afraid.

• 1:04:04Alie Ward?

  A few people asked about that. Keegan Newman wanted to know, do donkeys or mules ever benefit from horseshoes? This question was afoot among patrons Mini Mini, Katie Seeger and Stephanie. They all wanted to know hoof stuff. Can you put a wellie on their foot? Does that ever happen?

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  So some donkeys and mules are shot and they can benefit from it in certain conditions. I would say most donkeys do not need shoes and it's just going to cause more problems than it solves. Some mules that are working in particularly tough environments or that are going on roads a lot can really benefit from shoes. But again, most mules will do just fine without putting a manmade metal shoe on their foot that they don't really need. But us humans are great at thinking we can improve on nature, aren't we?

• 1:04:53Alie Ward?

  Yes.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  And actually, they're pretty good.

• 1:04:55Alie Ward?

  Oh, well, Shivani Rahan, Hetchell. Said they were a horse girl growing up and always wondered why mules seem to have very upright feet compared to horses. And Stephanie asked, is it true that donkeys can see all four of their hooves at the same time and horses can't? And Mini Me also wanted to know, is that why they're so sure-footed? Katie Seeger also volunteers at a sanctuary where there are mules and donkeys.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:05:21Alie Ward?

  Right? And asked about hoof issues too, but do they have a really different structure? Is that why they're more sure-footed?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what brilliant questions from your listeners. So the donkey and by virtue of the mule has a much more upright hoof. So as your listener said, that they're much more boxy, we often say, and they're much smaller, much more compact. Again, we go back to the evolution. The donkey has adapted to live in mountainous terrains with tiny little tracks. So big feet, like you might find on a Clydesdale or on a thoroughbred, are not going to help you. You're going to go over the side of the cliff if you're not careful. So donkeys have a very narrow chest. You'll notice that they don't have big muscles like horses and they have very close front feet

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  and back feet. And that means that they can pick their way very carefully along really steep, treacherous mountain tracks with their tiny upright feet.

• 1:06:24Alie Ward?

  So this means that as opposed to horses, donkeys have kind of taller hooves with less of an angle at the bottom than a horse does. So imagine like a horse's hoof is a wedge heel and a donkey's is like a point shoe. If you like exaggerated analogies, that's as good as I've got for you.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  And they're not going to endanger themselves by going over the side. That does mean that they're not as fast as their horse cousins because they're different, but they're perfectly adapted for the place that they are. When you think about the Grand Canyon, why do we think most of the equids working in the Grand Canyon are mules? It's because they're sure-footed. So that ability to adapt and cope with really quite dangerous environments is innate to donkeys and by virtue of mules. So those little boxy feet are just designed for where they are supposed to live.

• 1:07:24Alie Ward?

  And if you're wondering how much burden these beautiful beasts can handle, I was also wondering that. And it depends on how big they are and also who you ask. And according to a 2022 paper, the welfare concerns for mounted load carrying by working donkeys in Pakistan in the journal Frontiers of Veterinary Science, there's little research, they say, regarding mounted load carrying limitations of working donkeys. But larger donkeys can carry what handlers tend to say is about 28% of their body weight or around 100 pounds. But some research out of India says that they can carry up to 50% of their body weight. And in some heavy labor conditions, like in masonry, donkeys have been noted to carry nearly 120% of their body weight.

• 1:08:08Alie Ward?

  But the study notes that donkeys loaded at more than 50% body weight were more likely to splay out when they lie down, which is a sign of back issues, which is not shocking considering that they're carrying more than their body weight in like bricks. But horses, on the other hand, which are larger, obviously, they can safely carry 15 to 25% of their body weight, so much less. And mules, remember the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse, can carry up to 30% of their body weight. So they are stronger than horses. So patron Pacheco Joe asked, are donkeys happy to carry our stuff for us on a hike? And if so, how much is too much? And Honeybee also asked about donkey rides and Carissa May said, under what conditions

• 1:08:50Alie Ward?

  should pack donkeys be freed from traversing trails like the Grand Canyon? Is that humane work or should humans hoof that trail unaided? How do you feel about donkey or mule tours, riding a donkey? For some reason, I see that and I think, I don't know how. Well, they're treated. I don't think I could do it. Is it kind of a bit of a racket?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  There can be some good ones.

• 1:09:12Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  I think we have to be really clear that there are some operators and particularly small operators that do a great job. We have to think that a donkey or a horse actually is adapted to travel maybe 20 kilometers a day. In their natural environment, they would be exercising. They would be seeing novel situations and they would be, you know, experiencing lots of changes of environment. When we domesticate them, we take that away from them most of the time. And good work, where the animal's welfare is absolutely critical, can be at least neutral.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Not bad for the animal. It can imitate some of what they would have in their natural environment. However. But again, when profit becomes the primary focus, sometimes animal welfare is forgotten. But if you are thinking about going on these tours or these rides, have a look at the animal yourself. Are there signs of infection? Are there sores or rubs? How does the person running those rides interact with their animals? Are they kind? Are they gentle? How do they talk about them? Do they have a name? Is it an it? Or is it Jerry?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Or Romeo or whoever? Ask those simple questions. And if you're not sure, don't do it.

• 1:10:42Alie Ward?

  So yes, your actual mileage may vary depending on the outfitter. But for the love of donkeys, do some research. Now, if a mule or donkey has been neglected or retired, do you think it could be up for the job of your best friend? You know, last listener question, a lot of folks, Dave Dwelly wanted to know if someone's daughter was able to have a rescue donkey, what environment would be most comfortable for that donkey? Would two or three rescue donkeys be happier together? And Kelsey Fant wanted to know, what are some financial obligations to donkey ownership? Lauren Robinson, Peyton Nill, Mandel Viscousi and Rosa wanted to know, give us some tips on donkey care. I know you could write like an actual encyclopedia.

• 1:11:26Alie Ward?

  And this is what you do. But if someone were to rescue a donkey or has a donkey or is getting one for a homestead, what do you want them to know?

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Okay, most important thing is do not have a donkey on its own. So that one donkey, make sure it's got a buddy. Donkeys love the company of other donkeys and do not thrive unless they've got companionship. So that's number one. Number two is some kind of shelter. So donkeys can't just be left out on a pasture and forgotten about. They need a barn, a simple shelter, so that if it rains or it's really cold and windy, they can get out of those conditions. And they need dry under their feet. So they need somewhere

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  that it's not going to be wet and muddy, that they can get out of, again, poor weather. Donkeys do not need to eat rich feeds. So many of the problems that we see where donkeys are pets and companions, they're overfed. So they're given sweet feeds, they're given high-energy feeds made for horses or cattle. Donkeys do very well on low-quality fibers like straw and get to know your donkey. So most importantly, after you've given them all of those things, the one thing that they will thank you for more than anything is spending time with them.

• 1:12:56Alie Ward?

  My heart.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  You know, get to know them, brush them, train them, take them out for walks. You see lots of people going out for walks with their donkeys and get to know their personality. Because if they're not well, or something is wrong, it's that knowledge of them as an individual that will let you know. And so often, it's a tiny, tiny change in their behavior that will say, I'm not very well, or something's going on. So time, shelter.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Not too much of the sweet stuff, a good companion and lots of love. And then hopefully you've got a happy and healthy donkey. But there's lots of resources out there and the Donkey Sanctuary has tons on our website. So if people want to know more about how to look after donkeys, have a look and we can help you.

• 1:13:49Alie Ward?

  So that's thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk and it's linked in the show notes.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Final thing, finances, donkeys are not cheap. So you need to make sure you've got those yearly vaccines, you've got to do the yearly dentistry, feet need trimming every eight weeks, they might get sick, they might need extra food. And they are probably gonna live at least into their mid twenties, if not thirties. So it's a long term commitment. They're the most rewarding animals to have in your lives, but it's a big commitment. So make sure you're ready and then have a fantastic time with them.

• 1:14:30Alie Ward?

  A word of advice or is there something that is the hardest part about your job or working with donkeys? I imagine fundraising has got to be probably harder than actually going out and checking on the donkeys, right? But is there something about the work that is the hardest?

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  It's getting people to say goodbye at the right time. And the end of any animal's life is difficult for their human carers. But donkeys are part of the family and they're, you know, they're, they're tough and often they are stoic. So they will continue on with terrible problems with their feet and their teeth. Or a working animal that's really valuable to its family and is part of that family. But there comes a time when we have to say goodbye sometimes. And with donkeys, because they live so long and we get so attached to them.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  And they're so quiet about their suffering. I think that is the hardest thing that I have to deal with is seeing animals that need to be let go, but then also seeing how devastated owners are. But we love our animals and it's the the last great goodbye that we can give them. So that that's the hardest part. Fundraising is always tough. You know, there are so many competing organizations and donkeys are associated with, you know, very often either something funny or some of the poorest people in the world. But I always like to think if we help donkeys, we're helping people too,

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  which makes it just so fantastic. So.

• 1:16:19Alie Ward?

  And what about the like best part of your day or like the best part of donkeys? Is there a part that you're just like, oh, I love this?

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Oh, every day, probably. Any time that I get to step away from budgets and, you know, managing people and actually get to go and spend time with donkeys, whether it's here on one of our sanctuary sites in England, or if it's in Ethiopia or India, just getting that quiet moment with donkeys is is such a privilege. And also seeing, A, when you make a difference to an animal, how its life turns around, but also if you can help that donkey's family as

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  well, it's just, it's such such a wonderful feeling. So but there's nothing better than a donkey blowing gently on the back of your hand saying, I'm here. Could you come and scratch my ear, please? They're just so gentle. And I think that's the best bit is is working with just such charismatic animals.

• 1:17:31Alie Ward?

  I think it's funny, people listening are probably like currently Googling like the closest donkey sanctuary to go visit, to go pet a donkey.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Go visit, go and support them, go and learn more, and then it will become a lifelong addiction.

• 1:17:47Alie Ward?

  So ask astounding people, yes, asinine questions because their brains are as big as their hearts. And thank you again to Dr. Faith Burden for all the work you do with the Donkey Sanctuary. And I hope this inspires you, dear listener, to visit an animal sanctuary near you, give a donkey a pet, at least a wink. We will link to the Donkey Sanctuary social media handles in the show notes. And for more studies, you can look on our website at alieward.com/ologies/asinology. We also have shorter, kid-friendly versions of Ologies every week for free. They're called Smologies, S-M-O-L-O-G-I-E-S. And you could subscribe to them in their own feed, wherever you get podcasts. Tell your friends. We are at Ologies on Blue Sky and Instagram. I'm Ali Ward, with one L on both. Ologies merch is available at ologiesmerch.com. And to support the

• 1:18:32Alie Ward?

  show, you can also join our Patreon at patreon.com/ologies. Huge, huge happy birthday this past week to my forever friend and the admin of the Ologies Podcast Facebook group, you know her, Erin Talbert. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwire does the website. Leading us down our rocky path is scheduling producer Noelle DeWorth. Managing director is Susan Hale, who handles everything from masonry to baby lambs. And splitting the heavy load of editing each week are Jake Chaffee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio, Nick Thorburn, Braid, the theme music. And if you stick around to the very end of the show, you know I may burden you with a secret from my life. And this week, it's that I started reading your podmother, Jarrett's

• 1:19:13Alie Ward?

  favorite book, which is this fantasy action series called Heroes Die, because I wanted to be familiar with these characters and lore that he read a long time ago that are in his brain. And like, the first few pages are brutal. I was like, what is this? And then I was like, oh, okay, they're like, setting up a character like this for a reason. Got it. Anyway, tore through the whole thing, loved it. Very underrated fantasy sci-fi book, Heroes Die by Matthew Stover. And also, it's just cute to know that these are characters that like, live in his brain. But also, he started reading a favorite book of mine, I've always loved, called My Side of the Mountain, which is about this little kid who runs off to the woods to live alone. And it's set in the 60s, which is, I guess,

• 1:19:56Alie Ward?

  like, why his parents didn't get arrested for child neglect. But anyway, if you have friends or family members, maybe ask what their favorite book is, or start a little book club where you take turns reading each other's favorite comfort book. It's just kind of a nice thing to do and it helps you get to know the people that you already know even better. Okay. Organize locally. Buckeyes, stay strong. Love each other. Bye-bye.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  Donkey this, donkey that. How am I gonna get this donkey?

• 1:20:43Speaker 03

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