The 8 Life Lessons that Hoda Kotb Follows

In this episode of Office Hours, I sit down with my friend Hoda Kotb and talk about how we meet change when it shows up uninvited. Hoda has lived through transitions that resist simple narratives. Early rejection in her career. Public reinvention. Serious illness. Grief. Becoming a parent later in life. Each chapter forced a decision about how to move forward when there were no clear answers. Hoda is known to millions as the longtime co-anchor of NBC’s Today Show https://www.today.com/ and as the host of Making Space https://www.today.com/podcasts/making-space. In our conversation, those titles matter less than the life behind them. What connects us to Hoda’s story is not her achievements, but the ordinary human moments that shaped her values and continue to guide her choices. I hope this conversation leaves you not only inspired by Hoda’s life but also more willing to meet your own with honesty, courage, and care. — Brought to you by: • David Protein http://davidprotein.com/arthur—The most effective portable protein on the planet http://www.davidprotein.com/arthur http://davidprotein.com/arthur ⁠ https://www.expedia.com/ — Where to find Hoda Kotb: • X: https://x.com/hodakotb • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hodakotb • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HodaKotb • Website: https://www.hodakotb.com • Podcast: https://www.today.com/podcasts/making-space Where to find Arthur Brooks: • Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://arthurbrooks.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://arthurbrooks.com/ • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.arthurbrooks.com/newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.arthurbrooks.com/newsletter • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/arthurbrooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://x.com/arthurbrooks • Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/arthurcbrooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/arthurcbrooks/ • Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/ArthurBrooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.facebook.com/ArthurBrooks/ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGuyFRjJQFGCKzfHTBvWM6A⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGuyFRjJQFGCKzfHTBvWM6A • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-c-brooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-c-brooks/ • Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ mailto:[email protected] — Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (03:22) Introducing Hoda Kotb (06:03) Hoda’s origin story as a first-generation American (07:27) The inspiration Hoda gets from her mother (08:48) Hoda’s mother’s journey with grief and what it teaches her (11:23) Lesson #1: Reframe tragedy as opportunity (16:25) Lesson #2: Turn constraints into decisions (27:25) Lesson #3: Persistence creates destiny (31:44) Lesson #4: Keep learning (32:40) Hoda’s breast cancer journey (37:55) Lesson #5: Your suffering is your strength (40:39) How Hoda became a parent at 52 (46:42) Lesson #6: Choose love (52:20) Lesson #7: Choose a new tree (58:50) Lesson #8: You’re in charge (59:05) A quick recap of the eight lessons — Referenced: • Jump and Find Joy: Embracing Change in Every Season of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Jump-Find-Joy-Embracing-Change/dp/B0DZ5BVKH8 • Joy 101: https://www.joy101.com • Joy 101 2026 retreat: https://www.joy101.com/spring-retreat-2026⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.theatlantic.com/projects/how-build-life/ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://penname.co/⁠.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Arthur Brooks?

  Hoda is globally recognized as one of our most well-known and our foremost journalists. Also an author and entrepreneur. She's an Emmy award-winning co-anchor of NBC News Today. And she was the co-host of Today with Hoda and Jenna.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  When I graduated college, by my count at that time, it was 27 no's. And I actually do think the secret to our business is if you don't quit, someone's hiring you.

• 0:26Arthur Brooks?

  You connect to people with your weakness, not with your strength. That's one of the great secrets to human connection, that a lot of people, they miss that in trying to become successful.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  My last day, Arthur's was so crazy. I heard my dad's voice, clear as if he were in the room. And he said, "Everything's gonna be just fine today."

• 0:46Arthur Brooks?

  By the way, your dad is still alive because of this.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  It's beautiful, by the way. It was really beautiful. Can we make a book out of this? This seems like it should be.

• 1:02Arthur Brooks?

  Hi, everybody. Welcome to Office Hours. I'm Arthur Brooks. This is my show about bringing love and happiness to more people. I want you to be a happiness teacher. And that's what this show, and that's what all of my work are really all about. Lifting people up, bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love, using real science and real ideas. I talk about a different aspect of happiness and love every week on the show. And this week, I want to talk about something that brings people, well, a lot of unhappiness sometimes, but it doesn't have to. And that's changes in life. I couldn't think of anybody better to discuss changes in life than Hoda Kabi, my friend, who's been a friend of mine for a number of years now. Somebody who has a life really in the limelight for journalism, has done so many amazing things,

• 1:44Arthur Brooks?

  but has had so many changes in life. Fun, uncomfortable, scary.

• 1:51Arthur Brooks?

  Wonderful. Hey friends, a lot of you know that I keep a very high protein diet. That's important for me in my 60s because I want to maintain a good level of muscle protein synthesis. And I don't always have time to eat as much protein as I want from whole foods. That's the ideal, but it's just not manageable all the time. For that reason, I'm always looking for supplements that can actually get me where I need to go with respect to my macronutrient profile. A bunch of my friends were telling me that David Protein is a really good source. The reason is because protein bars in general, they're handy, they're convenient, but they can be very high in calories and they can actually be really high in carbohydrates, especially in the form of sugar. David Protein, I heard, was better. Sure enough, it's got a great profile.

• 2:33Arthur Brooks?

  It has 40% more protein to 57% fewer calories than most of the protein bars you find out there. 28 grams of protein, 150 calories, zero grams of sugar. That's actually quite a feat to put that together. And by the way, it tastes great. I started buying David Protein Bars and now I'm pleased that they're sponsoring this show as well. So whether you're on the go or hitting the gym, if you're trying to meet your protein targets, David Protein is a good way for you to do it. That's why I'm doing it and it's what I'm carrying when I'm on the road. So head over to davidprotein.com/Arthur. They've got a special offer for you. If you buy four cartons, they'll give you the fifth carton for free. You're gonna love that. And you can also find David Protein in stores by looking for the store locator. So enjoy.

• 3:17Arthur Brooks?

  I'm gonna give her bio here, even though most of you don't need it. Hoda is globally recognized as one of our most well-known and our foremost journalists. She's also an author and entrepreneur. She's an Emmy Award-winning co-anchor of NBC News Today. And she was the co-host of Today with Hoda and Jenna. She's also the host of a very popular podcast that I've been a guest on before and that I really love, Making Space with Hoda Kotb. And she's the CEO and founder of a brand-new wellness and community platform, Joy 101. Full disclosure, I'm on the advisory of that really wonderful new venture. She's a New York Times bestselling author of nine books. She's written nine books, that's right, nine. And her newest title is Jump and Find Joy. I love this book.

• 4:00Arthur Brooks?

  Read this book, Embracing Change in Every Season of Life. The most important word, as far as I'm concerned, in that title is change, which is our theme today. Hi, Hoda.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  First of all, can I just say how happy I am? I'm just admiring you as you were saying all those beautiful words. And I'm like, God, I love that guy.

• 4:16Arthur Brooks?

  Thank you.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  So I'm just happier in my life.

• 4:17Arthur Brooks?

  Thank you. I appreciate that so very much. It's been such a wonderful thing to get to know you over the past few years. I can't exactly remember what it was, but I wrote an article that you read at a particular time in your life. It was about how to understand change in the second half of life. Tell me about how we, how we found each other.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, first of all, you were somebody who were, you were like in the atmosphere around me. We were destined like two magnets to come together and have a moment together. And I had heard about you and I had seen articles you had written, especially ones about change. And I saw you linking arms with Oprah. And Jenna was like, there's this great guy, Arthur Brooks. He's amazing. And everywhere I went, I felt like I was just missing like knowing you and seeing you. And I so admired your work because I'm an emotional feeler when it comes to things. And I trust my gut and all this stuff. And I didn't ever imagine like science would become part of any story that I would be living.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  And for you to have shown like through all your research and science that things I was feeling were valid. And I wanted to be in your aura. I wanted to be around you. And I think, I think Oprah sort of gave you to all of us, but I'm just happy that all of the work you're doing is out there for, for people to grab on to. And change is the biggest part of it.

• 5:40Arthur Brooks?

  It really is.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  When it comes to you and me.

• 5:41Arthur Brooks?

  It's the one thing we can count on is that we can't count on things for very long. And, and that's why change is so important. That's why your work has been so meaningful to so many people, including me. When we started actually having conversations with each other, I thought, wow, this is really the application of what I've been trying to talk about and, and the experiences that you've had. And that's really where I want to start because the story of your career in life are so full of interesting and beautiful changes. And, and that's what I want to talk about, all sort of the nuance that comes in from the, you know, the, well, the change that is the story of your life. Maybe. Many people watching us actually don't know your origins. So where were you born?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I was born in Norman, Oklahoma. My parents are from Egypt and they immigrated here in the 60s.

• 6:24Arthur Brooks?

  Why did they come here?

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Well, my dad was a petroleum engineer and he wanted to get his doctorate degree. And my mom was a lawyer and a library. She was in library of science and she wanted to get her advanced degrees. And why they came was why everybody comes. Like, they knew that life could be amazing here. In Egypt, in some cases, you could get your doctorate degree and still sit at a desk with no phone. You know, or you could go to America. So they chased it. And we were raised, like, as red, white and blue as you can imagine. It was the, it was the generation of assimilation. And so they were like Nikes and backpacks and, you know, other than our funny names and our crazy hair and stop sign glasses, you know, that no one could pronounce, any of, any of those things. We were raised in that way.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  And, but they did, I remember watching them and thinking to myself, wow. Like, they flew across the ocean. They are in a country that they haven't, they don't have a soul in. And they made this beautiful life, you know, for us.

• 7:24Arthur Brooks?

  Are they still alive?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Uh, my mom is.

• 7:26Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's, um.

• 7:28Arthur Brooks?

  She's doing well?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:29Arthur Brooks?

  Where does she live?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  She lives in Virginia. She is the ultimate optimist. She falls in love daily with a new meal, something she saw on TV, a perfume scent. I met a friend, like, literally falls in love. And then I, I think that's it. Like, if you can keep falling in love at age 89, like, I could cry thinking about it. But she was just with us to hang out and she's coming again for Christmas and she'll come again and again and again, so.

• 8:02Arthur Brooks?

  And she's just taking a big bite out of life. She's fully alive, right?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  I mean, look at that. Her spirit's like a child. I mean, and I think about some 40-year-old friends who I have are so cranky and old and like, and like, you're like, go away. But she's like vibrant and bubbly.

• 8:17Arthur Brooks?

  She's enthusiastic. You know, there's this great saint in the 4th century, Saint Irenaeus, who said that the glory of God is a person fully alive. That sounds like your mom.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  I want to cry. That sounds exactly like her. And I think being in that, like, looking at that and thinking to yourself as a child all the way up till now, I'm 61, is like, that's, that's norm, like, this is normal to be optimistic. It's normal to see the bright side. It's normal.

• 8:42Arthur Brooks?

  It's just the enthusiasm of, life is just an incredible gift. And she's, she's suffered though, right? It's not as if she never, she didn't have any hard, hard.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, my dad passed when she was in her early 50s and we were in college. And so I think to have a loss like that, it was, I mean, for us as kids, I remembered, I actually remembered sitting outside of her bathroom while she was in the shower crying and just thinking to myself, like, make it all go away, like, make this pain stop. But to, to realize that she's lived almost as long without him in, and has formed this rich and lovely life with, full of friends and trips and adventures and things. It's like a nice model to be able to watch.

• 9:26Arthur Brooks?

  It's important because, you know, this is one of the biggest changes that people actually endure is that which is characterized by grief. And neuroscientists actually study grief. Grief actually is, involves a little part of the, the limbic system of the brain called the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex. We have a grief organ, effectively. We're supposed to grieve. And the reason is because we're supposed to be averse to losing people that we love. But we can't avoid it, which means that sadness, that sadness, that grief is actually a normal part of life. We're, we're built for sadness, but we're built for recovery. We're built to learn and we're built to grow on the basis of this. And did you see that in your mother? She was, she had real sadness. I mean, of course she didn't want to lose your father. Did she grow as a person as a result?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  She did. She, I mean, she didn't leave her bed for a while and I remember it. I remembered thinking, because I was in college, I was afraid to go back to school and my brother was in college with me and my sister was out and she was, um, home. But she, it took a while, but one thing that she did probably months after was she said, I'm going on a trip. And we're like, what? She went to Paris and London and she sent us a picture of her on the back of a motorcycle, like going on a ride with someone.

• 10:41Arthur Brooks?

  With a dude.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude. And I remember going, oh my God. But what she was saying was, hey, life.

• 10:46Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  You know, I was on a plane two days ago and there was a woman sitting next to me. And I said, how are you? She said, great. I'm 80 something. And she said, I lost my husband of 52 years. And I said, oh my God. She goes, this is my first flight alone. And I said, wow. And she said, as a single lady. And that's how she framed it. She goes, I'm single. My kids hate when I say that. But this woman, for the first time, was flying by herself in her whole life of 80 something years, and she saw the glory in it.

• 11:16Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah. So this is the first, Hoda's first lesson of change is reframe tragedy as opportunity. Reframe change, whether it's positive or negative, truly as opportunity because it is. Because it is. Whether you want the opportunity or not.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Right, it's coming.

• 11:33Arthur Brooks?

  It's coming. And if you don't actually see it as an opportunity for learning and growth, you've actually, you have all the pain, but you have none of the gain. Right? And you learned that from your mother, didn't you?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did.

• 11:43Arthur Brooks?

  She sounds like a great person.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  And I'm learning it from you right now.

• 11:46Arthur Brooks?

  No, no, I just learned it from you. This is Hoda's lesson number one. So where'd you grow up?

• 11:52Speaker 02

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• 12:01Speaker 03

  How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com/autodisc counts. Restrictions apply.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  I grew up in, we grew up in Morgantown, West Virginia.

• 12:10Arthur Brooks?

  Ah, how did you move from Norman, Oklahoma to Morgantown, West Virginia?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  My dad got a job.

• 12:15Arthur Brooks?

  All the hotspots, all the cool places.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  That's right. Oh, look, we loved the Mountaineers. We used to cheer for WVU in the stadium. My dad got a job as a professor at WVU.

• 12:25Arthur Brooks?

  Oh, no kidding.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  And we moved there and we went to school there and grew up there and lived there and fit in there. And it was beautiful. You know, this is so interesting, but we moved from Morgantown to Virginia at some point, and we never knew why we moved. We just, my parents like, we're moving. And we loved it. Like, we love West Virginia. We didn't want to move. We had like wild, wonderful West Virginia stickers.

• 12:48Arthur Brooks?

  Pretty and the people are nice.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we love everyone. We just loved it. And we couldn't believe someone would move us out of this place. Many, many, many years later, my brother was looking through my dad's desk of all of his old papers after my dad had passed, and there was a letter in there from WVU. My dad had written, the dean or something, and he wrote, "Dear Dean so-and-so, my name is Dr. Kotby. I'm a professor of petroleum engineering. I have more education than the other professors. I have more of this. More kids are asking for my class, but I'm the lowest-paid guy. Can you please bring me up to scale?" Something that effect. And the follow-up letter was, "You're making all you'll ever make at WVU."

• 13:29Speaker 01

  So, we moved. Now, we didn't know why we moved. My dad didn't say, "Hey, just so you know, you're gonna have to work harder. You're gonna have to be more. This is what's gonna happen to you." So, I didn't see, like, bad stuff coming at me because he didn't tell us it was coming. Like, I think what he did was he shielded us from thinking that every time we got a rejection, it was gonna be because of, "You're from here, or you're different, and that may be why." So, we never spoke a word of it. And it was probably one of his great gifts that he left behind.

• 14:03Arthur Brooks?

  But where did you go?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  So, we moved to Virginia at that time, and we lived in Alexandria, which is where we continued, and that's where he ended up passing away.

• 14:12Arthur Brooks?

  But what did you do for a living there?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  He worked at the Department of Energy, and then, after he'd been there for many years, the most stable job in the world, like, who would ever give that up? He was like, one of the top guys, you know, wow, wow, wow. And he decided, in the middle of all this, that he was gonna start his own company called IPCS, which was International Petroleum Consulting Service. And I remember his business card, because it said, "Dr. Kotby, you know, President." I remember thinking to myself, "My god, my dad is the president. This is so crazy." But, so he left stability to try.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Open a business, you know, have a building, hire a secretary, do the whole thing. So he did that.

• 14:53Arthur Brooks?

  He did. Was he happy with the job in the government and later as an entrepreneur?

• 14:57Speaker 01

  He was happy with the government job, but I think he wanted more. I think there was stability with the government job, which is, you know, insurance and all the things you need. And then this other thing was kind of scary. But I think he wanted to try, so he swung for it. And he had, he had the company, he had employees.

• 15:14Arthur Brooks?

  How old was he when he died?

• 15:15Speaker 01

  He was 53.

• 15:17Arthur Brooks?

  He was young, so he passed away really early. And did he get sick or did he?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  No, he was on the treadmill at like, they used to have these workout places called the Holiday Spa that were in like malls. And my parents would always go there and work out and then go shopping or whatever. And my mom said that he, you know, they were both in there and he's, she's, he's always the first one out waiting for her. And she came out first and she was surprised. Yeah. And then she saw some medics running in.

• 15:48Arthur Brooks?

  So you had a heart attack?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, a heart attack on the treadmill.

• 15:51Arthur Brooks?

  So your parents were gym rats?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Arthur Brooks?

  Like you?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Arthur Brooks?

  You're a gym rat too, right?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  I love it. I love, yeah, they were. My, my mom ran a marathon at 60 and continued and continues to this day. She just sent me a screen grab of 10,000 steps that she just took.

• 16:04Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, but I understand you a little bit better now hearing about your dad. I didn't know the story about your dad. So your dad, this is interesting. Everybody faces constraints. Everybody faces outside limits on their own growth. They do all the time. And sometimes it's just and sometimes it's unjust. And in the case of WVU was really, really unjust. And he turned that constraint into a decision, which is another way of reframing problems as opportunities in your life. But you know, you look at your constraints and say, okay, which one of these is actually a decision? He made the positive decision to take his family to Virginia, work for the government and start his own company. This is, now I understand you as an entrepreneur a lot better because of these two stories. And this is a second big lesson, isn't it? Look at the constraints and don't be bound by those constraints.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:43Arthur Brooks?

  Don't let anybody tell you, don't, don't let yourself tell you that these are constraints that actually become impossible to turn into changes in your life, right?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, because he, he never said the word. Look what they did to me there.

• 16:56Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  I didn't, that was not part of the conversation.

• 16:59Arthur Brooks?

  He wasn't a victim.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  He wasn't a victim.

• 17:00Arthur Brooks?

  Because he decided he wasn't a victim.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:02Arthur Brooks?

  Wow.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  You would have loved him.

• 17:04Arthur Brooks?

  Well, this is subversive. This is countercultural in our society today.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:07Arthur Brooks?

  Because everybody's telling young people today, you're oppressed, you're a victim.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:11Arthur Brooks?

  You should be aggrieved, you know, and I kind of feel like people our age are telling young people, are kind of trying to conscript them into some sort of culture war by making them feel sad and angry.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  It is true, though.

• 17:24Arthur Brooks?

  It's just so.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:25Arthur Brooks?

  It's just not right.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  It is true. You're right. And yeah, they sort of pushed through and said, this is what we have now. And I'm sure, look, I'm sure he was disappointed. I'm sure it hurt his feelings. I'm sure it was like, wow.

• 17:35Arthur Brooks?

  It probably was outrageous.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it sounds crazy.

• 17:38Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  But at the same time, you're right, he didn't carry it on. And so, you know, it's funny because, you know, we all had lots of rejections in life and I had plenty to speak of. And I'm so grateful he didn't tell me as I was like going on job searches or going here, going there and getting no, no, no. You know, I would have immediately said, well, here that is again. Here it comes. That same thing that happened, you know, back then is happening again, but.

• 18:01Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, people can look at your life right now as just sort of charmed, right? It's sort of perfect. And, and what we're finding is that, you know, you had a life like everybody else does. What you did was you learned these lessons from these people who are so instrumentally important in, in, in teaching you the lessons of what a good life is really all about. You went from there to, I mean, there's a lot in between that and becoming one of the most famous journalists in the world. So, so you, you grew up, where'd you go to college?

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Uh, Virginia Tech.

• 18:27Arthur Brooks?

  Virginia Tech, nice.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:29Arthur Brooks?

  And what'd you study?

• 18:30Speaker 01

  I studied communications. I mean, the department wasn't known for it. I actually went to the college because my sister went and she said it was great. So I joined a sorority and I liked communications and I was sort of, you know, I knew that was a passion of mine, but I, you know, and, and my brother went because I did. Yeah.

• 18:46Arthur Brooks?

  And you came out to be a journalist. You intended to be on television? That's what you wanted?

• 18:50Speaker 01

  I liked live. I thought there was something cool about live. I just thought.

• 18:53Arthur Brooks?

  What do you mean live?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Like immediate, like I didn't want to write for a paper. I wanted to be.

• 18:58Arthur Brooks?

  Live as in live on camera?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  I want to be at the thing. It's happening now. I sort of like that. Urgency of it. And I like that idea. So I said, well, let me try television journalism. And I did have a professor back in the day who, you know, said to me, look, I want to save you a bunch of heartache and a lot of, you know, just wasted time. Very few people are going to make it in this industry. Right now, I'm just going to help you out here. PR is probably a much better pathway. And I remember going home and telling my dad this. And I said, oh, my God, this guy said this. And he goes, who said it? And I go, the professor. Of what? I go, of, you know, communications. What, what's Virginia Tech known for? I go.

• 19:41Arthur Brooks?

  Engineering.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  He goes, exactly. You go do what you want to do. Okay? This is not someone who knows what he's talking about. So don't let him.

• 19:51Arthur Brooks?

  And your dad is a man who knows constraints.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:53Arthur Brooks?

  And he knows what you do when you face constraints.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:56Arthur Brooks?

  So this is your first.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:58Arthur Brooks?

  This is your, you're taking the advice that you're actually learning from your parents, that you learned at their knee by watching them. Not from what they told you, but from what they actually did. And, and this is the legacy. This is, by the way, your dad is still alive. Because of this.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  It's beautiful, by the way. It was really beautiful. That I really do think about a lot.

• 20:17Arthur Brooks?

  I know you do. I can tell. You still love him and he still loves you. He's loving you every day. So, tell me about TV.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  When I graduated college at Virginia Tech, I did have a single job interview, one lined up. And it was at, in Richmond, at some local station. And I had a, you know, someone who I knew, who I'd done an internship with called and said, can you interview her for a job? And I thought I was going to go live in Richmond, Virginia, which is like an hour from my house. And so I drove down there and with a resume tape and a blow dryer and a cool green suit. And I'm like, here we go. I'm going to live here. I like Richmond. I handed the news director my tape and I was like looking around the newsroom and planning my little new life. And he popped it in the machine and he stopped it after about 30 seconds. And he goes, oh, you're so not ready for Richmond. And I go, why?

• 21:06Arthur Brooks?

  Not ready for Richmond.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  So you're not very good. You're green. You know, sorry, your tape's not good. I mean, my God, we're, you know, we have a certain caliber here, but, you know, come back in a couple of years, maybe I'll look at you again. I was like, oh, my God. Like, you know, a couple of years as a college grad feels like forever. And as I'm leaving, I've got a buddy of mine though, who's hiring and maybe he'll hire you. He's in Roanoke. It's a smaller market, you know, et cetera. He said, but he's going on a news director's conference with me, but if you drive now, I'll tell him you're coming if you want and he'll probably pop your tape and then go call him and tell him I'm coming. So I, I was in my mom's car. I borrowed it, you know, I called my mom. I go, Mom, I'm gonna need the car for a few more hours. Oh, did you get the job in Richmond? I go, Mom, I don't want Richmond. I'm going to Roanoke. So I drove to Roanoke. That's where the action is, Roanoke.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Four more hours. Guy takes my tape, puts it in the machine, looks at it, stops it. And he said, oh God, you are so not ready for Roanoke. And I was like, why? He says, you're not good. You're green. God, this tape is not good. You know, blah, blah, blah. You gotta learn. You gotta learn your this and that. You don't have the basics. Sorry. You know, bye. And I'm like walking out of there and he goes, oh, wait, wait. He goes, there's actually I've got a buddy of mine who's hiring too. I mean, you seem like a nice person. He might hire you, but he's in Memphis, Tennessee. And I go, okay. And he goes, he's going to the same conference I'm going to, but if you go, he's leaving tomorrow morning. I mean, if you're willing, you could drive and Keep driving. So I said, I drive. So I drove across the great state of Tennessee, 12 hours,

• 22:35Speaker 01

  whatever it was, roll up, hand him the tape. He looks at it. He pops it in for a minute. He goes, why would he ever send you to Memphis? We're a bigger market. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Like this was a waste of your time. This is not a good tape, on and on. So he referred me to somebody. I was driving around all over. I kept getting names and then I would get rejected in like NBC, ABC and CBS. It happened by my count at that time when it was all said and done, after I'd been driving and driving and getting rejected in three, three, three affiliates per city. It was 27 no's. I got rejected in Dothan, Alabama, which is this big. I got, I got a no there. And finally, it was over, I thought.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  And I was thinking of that professor who told me I was not good. And I was thinking he was probably right. And I was just driving home after many days and I saw like a sign, like a CBS I sign. I was like, what is that? And it said CBS, like our I is on you Greenville, Mississippi. I had been driving through wherever Hattiesburg and Greenville was, was there. So I said, well, let me stop in there and get a, get rejected, get a map and get out. This news director. Stop it for quick rejection. That was it. Cause it was, I had so many. I was like, I'm tired of, I was almost now immune. I didn't even. So this guy's like, how you doing? My name is Stan Sandroni. I'm the news director. I was sports director yesterday and they promoted me. I was like, oh my God, what is happening? I go, here's my horrible tape. He goes, what's your name?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  I go, my name's Hoda. Come on in, Hilda. Let's go check out this tape, see what we got. He puts that tape in, he plays it. He watches all of it. It's terrible. He watches the whole thing. He stops it after 30 minutes or whatever it was. And he looks at me and he goes, Hilda? I said, yes.

• 24:18Arthur Brooks?

  Sit close enough?

• 24:19Speaker 01

  He said, I like what I see. I was like, you do? I was like exploding in tears, exhausted. And this guy Stan changed my life. And so they asked us at 30 Rock, bring someone who changed the course of your life. So I brought Stan to 30 Rock and he was wandering around going, oh my God, Al Roker's skinny. You know, he was like, Hoda, I knew it. I knew from one minute I seen you. I was like, how? Like, nobody thought I was any good but this guy. So that first one was the one. Like, once I got the first one, I said to myself, now that I'm in the door, but, and I, and I actually do think the secret to our business is,

• 25:02Speaker 01

  if you don't quit, someone's hiring you.

• 25:05Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Somebody will. You're gonna wear down. It's all subjective. I might remind someone of someone they hate. I might remind someone of their old girlfriend. I might remind someone of someone who was a terrible reporter. I, who knows? But you just keep going until somebody locks with you and says, yes.

• 25:23Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. So this is, this is really, I mean, wow. This is an applied example of what your parents had taught you. That what you had seen, and, and, and how do parents teach their kids? By the way, there's all this interesting literature about what do you tell them? It doesn't matter what you tell them. You have two daughters. It doesn't matter what you tell them. All that matters is what they see. That's it. People often ask me, how do you, how do I, what do I do so my kids will, will, will practice my faith? And it doesn't matter what you tell them. It matters that they see you on your knees next, next to their bed at night. That's what matters. Because they'll say, oh, that, that's what it means to be a grown up. To stand before the Lord. That's what it means to be a grown up. And what you learn from your parents was what they, what you saw in their worst moments.

• 26:05Arthur Brooks?

  What you saw in their, in the constraints that were their lives. And, and then you had to, you had to face 27 constraints? Boom, boom, boom. And you learned, just because there is rejection, it doesn't mean you're bad. On the flip side, by the way, no doubt you've learned that just because everybody loves you, it doesn't mean you're good all the time, too, right?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right.

• 26:28Arthur Brooks?

  Which requires a lot of humility, too, because then when you're in the top of the world, a lot of people, they read their press releases and believe them, right?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  I feel like a lot of my career, I have been fighting and struggling. So that, I mean, I actually sometimes had like, these moments where I thought to myself, they're gonna knock on my door here at 30 Rock and tell me to go on home because they know, you know, because you feel like what, you know, often you feel like, you know, there are a lot of really good, like, what am I doing here?

• 26:56Arthur Brooks?

  Right. All successful people feel imposter syndrome. All of them do. And what you find is that the people who recognize that are the people who actually do the best in life. The people who actually sort of lose their imposter syndrome and start to actually believe that they're not an imposter.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Is that true?

• 27:12Arthur Brooks?

  Sure. It actually becomes a problem. I've written about imposter syndrome.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 27:15Arthur Brooks?

  People talk about how terrible it is, how bad it is for your mental health and all that. But really, the truth of the matter is that none of us is terrible and none of us is great.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 27:24Arthur Brooks?

  We're just people.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:25Arthur Brooks?

  Is the whole point. And if you think you're terrible and you give up, well, shame on you. But if you think you're great and you think that nothing can, bad can ever happen to you, well, shame on you, right? This is the lesson. This is the third lesson. The third lesson.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  That's so good. That's so good.

• 27:40Arthur Brooks?

  It's amazing. And so then this, this story, journalistic career got started there.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Hopscotched around, yeah.

• 27:47Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, all over the place. And then, and then, as they said in Seinfeld, yada, yada, yada, you wound up, you know, hosting the Today Show. So what was between here and there?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Just hopscotching around local news. And then I got, you know, someone at NBC happened to have been in New Orleans when I was working there as an anchor. And I had a show that must have been one of the ones that, like, I had many bombs, but this one must have been a good one. She was like, come up and try out for Dateline. So I did. So I ended up working for, at Dateline for probably 10 or 11 years. And during all that time, if I'm being totally honest, like, I love talking to people, but the craft of it, I felt like I'm, I was putting a circle in a square a little bit because, you know, they want, like, I was in Baghdad and Afghanistan. I went to these places and there was... Tragedies and wars and, and, and natural disasters. And I found myself like heartbroken.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Like I, I struggled with that kind of thing.

• 28:42Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I bet you did.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  I tried to do it because that was, that was it. And it had so many good parts. Like I saw the human resilient side. Like you're at, you're at a terrible tragedy and you watch somebody just like rise from the ashes and tell an incredible story about how they survived it. And you're like, wow. So there was enough that kept me in this place, but I also felt I wasn't up to par with everybody at that time because I was a local news person who would come to the network with all these Emmy award winning rock stars. And it was clear that I was out of my league. And in fact, Neil Shapiro, who's my boss, I was thinking to myself, well, I'm not better. I'm not great at interviews. I'm not great at writing, but I have a good voice. So at least let me just start there. And so my boss called me at Neil. He goes, hey, I need to talk to you about something. I go, okay.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  He's like, it's your voice. I go, oh my God. I go, what? He goes, your voice, your stories all sound the same. Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. They don't sound different. He goes, read this line. And he writes down the words and then something amazing happened. He goes, read it. I go, and then something amazing happened. He goes, punch it. I go, okay. And then something amazing happened. He goes, I didn't say louder. I said punch it. I go, Neil, I don't know what you're talking about. He goes, give me the paper. He goes, and then something amazing happened. I go, oh. So he goes, so I'm like, how am I going to do that? So I'm walking out of his office and I hear Keith Morrison from Dateline with the pipes of, you know, God.

• 30:07Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, he's got those.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  And I'm standing outside listening to him track a piece. And I wait for the full 45 minutes till he's done. I'm listening to the whole thing because they were playing it out so you could hear. And when he came out, I go, what are you doing in there? He goes, what? I go, what are you doing in there? He goes, oh, I'm reading my kid a bedtime story. I go. And then something amazing happened. I go, oh my God. So it like unlocked a piece. So then I got confidence there and then here and then there. So I started getting better at it, but it still wasn't the fit. And then one day I was filling in on the Today Show as like doing a piece or whatever. And there was a producer who loved me and she said to me on, I was about to sit down and do an interview.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  And I mean, I always want to get just right. I want to get out on time, hit all my points. I was gonna, and they were gonna like that. And it was perfect and perfectly boring. So if you did it right and you got out on time and you asked all your questions, there's nothing new there, nothing fresh, nothing. So she runs out on the set. Her name's Amy Rosenblum. And before I get started, she goes, they think you're boring. I go, what? Just they think you're boring. You gotta zhuzh it up. Like you gotta give them more. You can't just follow your things and try not to make a mistake. And I go, I don't know. I'm like hyperventilating. I'm like, oh my God. So I sit with whoever this person was and I didn't afford that. So afterward she talked to me. She goes, be who you are in my office.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Don't be this person who's trying not to mess up. She goes, it's not working. And later on, through a whole confluence of events, including, you know, an illness that kind of gave me courage to go ask for something that I wanted.

• 31:46Arthur Brooks?

  I'm gonna ask you about next year.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  So I ended up getting the, uh, the Today Show with Kathie Lee that, that hour.

• 31:52Arthur Brooks?

  And yada, yada, yada.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  And yada, yada, yada.

• 31:54Arthur Brooks?

  But you know, here, but here's lesson four.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  What?

• 31:56Arthur Brooks?

  Lesson four, incoming.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Come, give it to me.

• 31:59Arthur Brooks?

  You're a student. You're a student. Your whole life, you kept learning and learning and learning. And the people who really struggle are the people who think they've got it and then they stop. And they want to be lifted up on the basis of who they are as opposed to the person that they're actually becoming. Change is all about the gradual process of improving yourself because you have the humility to understand that people have things to teach you, that the world has things to teach you. And when you learn those things, you will be better. That's a strong belief. That is a strong, and by the way, that is one of the great beliefs of winners throughout society. They're not done learning. And I know for a fact you're still not done learning.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  No, please. I feel like every day I'm in, yeah, I'm beginning again.

• 32:38Arthur Brooks?

  And that's a way of life. So this is the fourth lesson, folks. This is the fourth lesson from Hoda.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Will someone write these down for me?

• 32:45Arthur Brooks?

  Oh, I'm writing them down. Oh, I'm writing them down. Yeah, that's right. And okay, this is great. And you're referred in passing to actually getting sick. When did this happen?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  It was 2007, and I was healthier than I could have ever imagined.

• 32:58Arthur Brooks?

  Jim Rat. Healthy's a horse.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, ran at Central Park, ate apples, like, you know.

• 33:03Arthur Brooks?

  It's the apples are everything, aren't they?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  The apples. Yeah, I mean, the apples. So I went for a checkup, and the doctor said, oh, there's, you know, you might need to get a biopsy on something we found on your right breast, or, you know, go get it checked. So I said, okay. So I went and got it checked and literally forgot about it because I knew that those things, it wasn't, not for me, like, I just did not imagine it. And I was in my office.

• 33:25Arthur Brooks?

  Here we go.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was in my office. I was like, this can't be anything. Sitting in my office, and I'm with an intern, and we're talking about the business, and I'm trying to pump her up, and I see Mount Sinai on my phone. And she goes, oh, do you need me to leave? And I said, oh, no, no, I'll just take this call, take two seconds, and then we'll get back to it. So I take the call, and the guy on the phone says, hi, and I don't remember exactly, but like anyone who's gotten a call, not good news for you, cancer, come in, you know, more scans. And I was like, cancer? No, don't worry. So I hang up the phone, and I'm looking at this kid. And she goes, I should leave, she said, without me saying, because all I said was, uh huh, uh huh, click. And I go, yeah. And she goes, before I go, can I ask you for something? And I said, oh, yeah, sure, whatever you want. Picture, you

• 34:10Speaker 01

  know, I was thinking, in the meantime, my head's spinning. She goes, can I just give you a hug? I said, okay. I go, yeah. That's okay. I was like, holding this kid and crying and she was probably like, what's going on? But it was- She knew something was going on. She knew. And so I had, um, I had to get a mastectomy and have a long, you know, uh, recovery process. How long was that recovery process? Um, I did a, it's called a tram flap where you change, move stuff up. Anyway, it probably took three months, I think. And you were super public about it. Well, I actually was- At least later. Yeah, I wasn't, I actually didn't want to say a word about it because I was afraid of sad eyes and stuff.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  So I didn't say anything and, um, Matt Lauer at the time was doing a where in the world is Matt Lauer? One of those, um, he used to do these, these pieces where he would fly all over the world and people would guess where he was and he'd pop up. And he'd always have a correspondent in each city, Dubai or wherever, wherever, Ireland. So he called me knowing I wasn't well. And he said, do you want to do one of these as you, I know you're healing? And I said, yeah, I do. I didn't want to stay home anymore. I was, you know, watching Law and Order, like feeling terrible. And so I went and I flew to Ireland and I felt horrible. It was like, I was like, I'm not healed. The doctor cautioned me and I should have said, God, I should have listened to where I shouldn't have gone.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  And I was on the way, I, I did my piece, smiling and faking it, um, in Ireland. And I was getting on the flight home and there was a man next to me. And I wanted to put my earbuds in and go to sleep. And the guy goes, how you doing? I go, good. He goes, are you on one of those shelves? And I'm like, oh no, please no. Now's not the time. Like I couldn't even, I wasn't functioning. And he goes, yeah, aren't you with Roker and uh, uh, uh? I go, yeah, are they funny? And I go, yeah. But there was something about him likeable, so he started asking me questions about life. And I was asking him, I thought it'll be a good, a good distraction and then I'll go home. And he goes, what's on your, on your arm? And I said, oh, it's, it's a compression sleeve. He said, well, what's it for?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  I said, well, I had a procedure and the doctor said it's a good idea to, when you fly to wear it. He goes, what procedure? I go, I had an operation, you know? Anyway, so, and I, he goes, what was it? What was the operation? I go, oh my God. I go, well, and I, and I kind of liked him. He was like, I go, well, you know what? I go, I had breast cancer. I said, but I hope when you get off this plane, you don't say, oh, I sat next to this girl with breast cancer. And he goes- What is wrong with you? I go, he goes, breast cancer is part of you. He said, it's like going to college or getting married or working at NBC. He goes, let me give you some advice. You can go to sleep. I said, okay. He goes, and this, this stuck with me forever. He said, don't hog your journey. It's not just for you. And I was like,

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I was sobbing. He goes, think of how many people you could have helped on this plane ride home. Uh uh. He goes, you can put your stuff deep in your pocket. You can take it to your grave or you can help somebody.

• 37:11Arthur Brooks?

  So what'd you do?

• 37:12Speaker 01

  So I made a decision right then. That was when I did it. And that's when I came back because they wanted me to say something on the show, like why I've been gone and whatnot. And I decided in that moment, why not? Because I was looking for people who were on the other side too, who had healed from breast cancer. I was, you know, when someone said they had breast, I was like, oh, when? Oh, you're fine now? Oh, so you're okay? Like you can have a life after? So that was the decision to go public. It was because of this Ken Dwayne guy on the plane who I still keep in touch with.

• 37:42Arthur Brooks?

  Do you really?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because he was, he was, it's like.

• 37:45Arthur Brooks?

  That he was your pivot?

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I would have, if not for him, if I would have gotten the earbud in, I probably would have just been limping through life trying to stuff it down. Angel.

• 37:56Arthur Brooks?

  Sent to you. And, and that changed how you talked about it, but that changed your approach, didn't it? Because you've talked about a lot of difficult things in your life and you do it on purpose, right?

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:05Arthur Brooks?

  Why?

• 38:06Speaker 01

  I think it's like, sometimes you feel you're by yourself. I just think it's important so that you don't feel alone. And also, I think, I mean, you said something at the beginning, but it's like, when something terrifying happens and you're still standing, whether wobbly or not. Like I got from that experience, a big, like four letter, I mean, four word, not four letter word, but well, without probably that too.

• 38:33Arthur Brooks?

  You've said a few of those in your life, but that's normal too.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  But it was like, it was, you can't scare me. And I was like, hell yeah. Like, you know, everything seemed very tiny in comparison. All the big gigantic fears seems kind of stupid.

• 38:48Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. You know, um, I think I got less than five here. I think I got your lesson five.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  What's lesson five?

• 38:54Arthur Brooks?

  I always wondered, people feel like they know you. People like, I mean, they don't know you personally, but they feel like they know you personally. You connect to people the way anybody can connect with people they don't know, not through their strengths. You don't say, I'm Hoda Kotb and I'm really famous. That doesn't create a connection with anybody. I'm Hoda Kotb and I had breast cancer and my parents died. And my dad died from, I loved a lot when he was young and I was even younger. And you connect to people with your weakness, not with your strength. That's one of the great secrets to human connection, that a lot of people, they miss that in trying to become successful. And that's one of the reasons that you can be a happy person

• 39:37Arthur Brooks?

  in spite of a kind of a weird life, be kind of an unusual life, a life in the limelight. You can be truly a happy person because you're connecting with other human beings. And the only way that you do that is the connective tissue between any two people is suffering, not success. And you've shared that. You've shared that with me. You've shared that with everybody. You're sharing that with people right now and you've shared that over the course of your career. That's a great lesson. It's a great lesson.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Oh, God, you really ought to have Kleenexes at your table.

• 40:06Arthur Brooks?

  I know, I gotta have more tissues at the table.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  I mean, come on, the more of these you do, the more you're gonna need.

• 40:11Arthur Brooks?

  So, things are proceeding along and happy ending to that. Recovery, full recovery.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Full, yeah, no, no relief.

• 40:19Arthur Brooks?

  And you know, God bless America and our medical system where, and you know, the technology and the science that actually makes it possible, because you know, 100 years ago, sayonara, right?

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Bye. Yeah. I mean, Dr. Freya Schnabel, who I remember as I was being wheeled in, looked at my mother who was, you know, sobbing. And I thought, boy, I would so much rather be, you know, if I could, like, I wanted her pain to be erased, but Freya said, Dr. Freya Schnabel, Freya, because I love her so much, said to my mom, I'm gonna take care of your little girl. And she did.

• 40:51Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, indeed she did.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  And she did.

• 40:53Arthur Brooks?

  And she did. Fast forward a few years, you've had some other very, very public changes in your life, joyful changes. You had children.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and I thought because of the cancer piece of it, they told me there will be, you know, one of the, one of the worst parts of it is you won't have kids.

• 41:10Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  And I remembered thinking to myself, don't be selfish, don't be greedy. You have such a great life. Stop trying to, and I was trying to push it down because I always wanted kids, but I thought, let's not verbalize that anymore because it can't happen. So it's like saying, I want to be an astronaut or something like, why would I say it? So I, and I, I was always told, one of my best girlfriends, Jen Miller, I always said to her like, oh, I want to teach school when I'm done, but, but like little kids, like first grade or kindergarten. And she was like, oh, I said, I want to have a summer camp, you know, little kids. And she was like, oh, and then one day we're walking along and she said, well, you know, we never wanted kids. And I just, I stopped, we were on one of our nice walks. And I said, well, actually Jen, I, I did.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  She said, well, you never said it. I said, well, I didn't say it because it's like saying, I want to go to the moon. It's not happening. But like most things in life, like when you verbalize weird things happen. And I, I remembered going home and seeing something on Access Hollywood or something that Sandra Bullock had just adopted a baby from New Orleans named Louis. And I was like, how old is Sandra Bullock? Cause I wanted to know if we were, and she was my exact age. And I was like, oh my God, it is possible. And I remembered thinking to myself, okay.

• 42:27Arthur Brooks?

  Cause you were single.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  I was single. Well, I was with, actually I was with Joel. He's a guy who I had been with for, at, at that point, just a year and a half. And I did tell him, I said, look, because he wanted to move in. And I did say, before anything happens, I just want to let you know that.

• 42:45Arthur Brooks?

  You're not going to be my only roommate.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  And you know what? I mean, to, to Joel's, like he's a great guy. And to his credit, I remember saying, I want to discuss something with you. You know, again, he's, you know, got a daughter in law school, you know, he's already done, gone and done it all. And I go, but don't answer me now. I said, I want you to answer me later, like in a couple of days. Or a week even, take your time, let this marinate. And he was like, what is this? And I said, I would like to explore adoption with you. And he said, oh, I don't need a week.

• 43:15Arthur Brooks?

  He says, I already have parents. I don't need to be adopted by you.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  So he, he and I, I mean,

• 43:21Arthur Brooks?

  He was in, he was all in on that.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So,

• 43:23Arthur Brooks?

  Good man.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  And you know, it's funny, we had a room upstairs that was like an empty room that was going to be her, her, her room. And I remember Joel saying, you know, well, they said it might take a year or two years. So how about if I just use that for my home office and then when she comes, I'll move all my stuff out. And I remember very adamantly saying no. And he was like, what do you mean no? I go, we have to leave it. I said, we don't have, we need space for her. We have to be ready, like.

• 43:48Arthur Brooks?

  We're expectant parents.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. And like literally, I think it was three weeks later, the phone rang and they said, she's here. And I was like, oh my God, she's here. So parenthood came.

• 43:59Arthur Brooks?

  Where was she born?

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Came. She was born in Texas.

• 44:02Arthur Brooks?

  Born in Texas. That's great. And it went fast.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  It went, it was like in,

• 44:05Arthur Brooks?

  Split.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Literally in no time.

• 44:06Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  No time.

• 44:07Arthur Brooks?

  Did you start the process immediately after that for your second?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  I wanted to.

• 44:10Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I wanted to, and they said, you have to wait a period of nine months, like anybody who's going through a pregnancy.

• 44:17Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  So that, you know, cause you, you kind of get excited and you wanna, cause I wanted to have another child right away. Yeah. I, I mean, and even now I look and I go, someone need me? Cause we got, we got love and we got room.

• 44:28Arthur Brooks?

  Right. Right. That's great. No, we went through the same process. My daughter, my, my, my baby, she's 22 now. She came home when she was 15 months. I actually went by myself to pick her up in an orphanage in China. Because at the time, my wife didn't have American citizenship, so she couldn't, she couldn't execute the adoption. So I had to go by myself. They'd never had a dad by himself doing this. And so everybody took great care of me because they just assumed I was completely incompetent. And I, I had two biological kids. I mean, I knew how to change diapers. I mean, I was, I wound up giving other people advice. You know, it's actually okay. You know, this is not a bad sign, you know, that your baby's going to the bathroom too often, or whatever it happens to be. And it was really, really a great experience, but of course it is the greatest joy in life.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  I mean, holding her for the first time. And you, did you know her before?

• 45:09Arthur Brooks?

  No, no, we just, all we got is a picture and, and we were matched by the Chinese government with us. And, uh, and this is after my wife had been having dreams about a little girl. She dreamed about a little baby girl born and abandoned on a park bench in China. She had a dream. She couldn't, and she happened in this weird recurring dream. And, and they, and so we started the process. You know, it was my wife's idea because she's a saint and, you know, I'm, I'm a dude. And they matched us with a little baby girl that at 12 hours old had been abandoned on a park bench in a park in China. God is good. God is good. And now she's 22 years old and she's the second lieutenant in the US Marine Corps. God bless America. She's a tough little angel too. It's a good thing. It's a good thing.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  I have chills all over right now. I can't.

• 45:54Arthur Brooks?

  And we're adoptive parents and so beautiful.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  I think you should call your podcast Chills.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Because people are gonna get them a lot.

• 46:01Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, no, no, no. So this is so beautiful. And so then your second daughter.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:06Arthur Brooks?

  And it was, and, and, and she's, and she's.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  She's an incredible kid. She's six years old. Haley's now eight. Yeah, she is, she's an incredible kid. Yeah.

• 46:16Arthur Brooks?

  You go into your office at NBC and it's just full of, you know, art projects and pictures.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  That's it. All it is. Handprints.

• 46:22Arthur Brooks?

  It's mom, mom, mom, mom. That's your, it looks like really your mom, right?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  This morning, when I was leaving to go, I do an early morning workout. So, and Hope came in and crawled into bed with me. And she goes, Mom, she goes, are you coming back after you exercised? And I go, yeah. She goes to snuggle. I go, yeah. She goes, Mom, I love you. I go, honey, I love you more. And she goes, I was walking through. She says, Mom. Oh, yeah. She goes, I love you the most. Now I'm going back to bed. Don't say anything. I go, okay, all right. So all of the like soul filling goodness.

• 46:52Arthur Brooks?

  And you know, there's a funny thing that we find with a lot of people that they think they have to make a, a choice between being special in the world and choosing the only source of happiness that any of us can have, which is love. And you're living proof. This is lesson six, by the way, that happiness is love and you can choose it no matter where you are and what you're doing. Never be shackled by the outside world that tells you that you have to chase that, that very special something, that, that success, that ambition, whatever it happens to be, that the, the world tells you have to do something. You can still choose love. And if you do, you'll be choosing happiness. And your life is living testament to that, isn't it?

• 47:35Arthur Brooks?

  Let's go back to your career for a second.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, come on.

• 47:38Arthur Brooks?

  The last chapter, we're working on chapter. I mean, like, I didn't preconceive these lessons. You're teaching me right here.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  By the way, I'm so into this. I love it.

• 47:46Arthur Brooks?

  This is real time. This is real time. Your story is just rich, rich, rich with the lessons that we need. Let's go back to your career because your career changed a lot just relatively recently. Tell us about that. After 17 years at the very pinnacle of what you were doing.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:00Arthur Brooks?

  You made a decision.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So I was hosting with Savannah and, you know, that was such a, I mean, that was a wow because it was, you know, we were the first kind of female team to ever anchor at the network level, which was a big deal. And then, and then other local affiliates followed suit. Like, they would pop up with two female, you know, and it just wasn't heard of. So I knew we had done something special. I'd worked for years with Kathie Lee and years with Jenna and like had the loveliest and best of everything. One day, there were a couple of things that started happening because I'd waited a long time for kids. So I was thinking about, you know, my time pie. And Maria Shriver, who's a dear friend, was over at one point. I love her.

• 48:42Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, me too.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  How's your life? I go, good. She goes, well, let's see. So get a piece of paper.

• 48:47Arthur Brooks?

  We'll just see about that.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  So she said, cut the paper up into different sized square pieces. And each piece should correspond with the amount of time, energy and love it requires in your life. So it should be like your kids, your job, exercising, visiting your mother, hobbies, travel, blah. So I did it. And she was like, so, oh, so your kids are more time and energy than your job? I was like, well, no, actually, they're not. He goes, well, why don't you flip those? Okay. And do you really spend that much time exercising in this little time? No, no, actually. So I fixed it. She goes, well, there's your life. Do you like it? I was like, no, I actually don't like it. I don't like it. I never stopped and looked at it from 35,000 feet. I didn't know what I was doing. I just kept doing it.

• 49:33Arthur Brooks?

  You were letting life manage you as opposed to managing your life, right?

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yes. And so at that moment, it was close to my 60th birthday at the Today Show. And they were doing, they did a, you know, like Today Show does the best party ever. It's like the Plaza and singing and signs. And Jenna's dad gave me a painting. It was like all kinds of crap. I was sobbing.

• 49:52Arthur Brooks?

  By the way, Jenna's dad is George W. Bush, former president of the United States. Yeah, just to.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Clarify.

• 49:58Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Clarifying.

• 49:59Arthur Brooks?

  Who's a very good painter.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:01Arthur Brooks?

  He's a very, very skilled painter.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  By the way, the painting is hanging in my, in my house. And it's the back of me and my girls walking.

• 50:08Arthur Brooks?

  His paintings are full of love.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:10Arthur Brooks?

  Because he's full of love.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:12Arthur Brooks?

  He's an extraordinary person.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  No question. And to have that, I mean, to had that piece, I think that was one, that tipped me over when I opened it on the, on the set. But as I was looking, other women were celebrating their 60th. And I was thinking, how could they're like, we're doing it together. I also weirdly thought to myself like, this is the top of the wave. Like, I was like, this is it. This is what the top looks like. And I knew it. I knew it. Like, it wasn't getting better than that day. There was no, and I wasn't saying it to be like, oh, but ma, no, no. It was the top, the tip top. And weeks earlier, I had interviewed an actor and he was describing this wave thing. And he said, Hoda, some waves are big. It's like the Oscar wave. You're riding it. You're like, oh, my God.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  And eventually that wave will, you know, crash and then you paddle back out. And then what's your next one? Maybe your next one's an indie, small, but it moves. You're like, ah, I love it. And then you paddle back out. What's your next one? You know, are you going to get another Oscar? Maybe, maybe not, but you know, the feeling. And so in that moment, I felt this strong, like, I think this is it. Like, I, but I thought, is that just a weird reaction to turning 60 and having a party and having all this emotion? And then I started getting like these signs that were coming to me. And one of them was my hope, my little one was climbing a tree in our front yard. We have a small tree and she was up and down it over and over. You know, I'm just watching her, look, mom, look, mom, I'm up and down. Okay. And all of a sudden she's at the top.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  I go, honey, you're at the top again. I go, what are you going to do? She goes, oh, maybe it's just time to find a different tree. I go, what? She goes, a different tree. Maybe. I go, different tree. So I was like, is this another? So you know how you start to think about it? And then, and then I also thought about Maria's puzzle and that. And, and also, I love what I did. It was like, probably like the best job I've ever had. But I think I was also ready for something. Like I had been making, you know, the same stuff in the kitchen over the course of 17 years and at the Today Show. And, you know, like you start to get into a rhythm that you know that,

• 52:26Speaker 01

  oh, who, which guest? Oh, it's this one. And I wanted, I wanted that, that next kind of thing. And I didn't really know 100% what it would be. But I sort of made a decision and it was like, I could sleep. I could put my head on the pillow and sleep, which was a real indicator for me if something's right. I wasn't tossing, I wasn't losing it. I was sleeping. And on the morning of my last day, I, Arthur's is so crazy. I heard my dad's voice clear as, as if he were in the room. And he said, everything is going to be just fine today. And I heard his, because I couldn't even remember if I remembered his voice. Do you know what I mean?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  It's been so long since I've heard it. And I, I literally jumped up in bed, you know, was like, okay, that's, that's reassurance. I go to work. Savannah and I were sitting, she was, we were holding hands. We were both crying. And Kermit, on the air. Kermit came on and sang Rainbow Connection. And there's a line in Rainbow Connection that says, I, I can't remember. It's like, I hear your voice from the other side or something. And Savannah, because I had told her about my dad. She looked at me and I was like, oh my God. Like this is all, like it's all happening at one moment. So anyway, it was, I knew, I knew it was right. And I knew it was going to be super painful and a real hard adjustment.

• 53:51Arthur Brooks?

  Was it?

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Arthur Brooks?

  Was it?

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, because you know, that's, that's called, in my business, that's called liminality.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  What does that mean?

• 53:58Arthur Brooks?

  That's the time between the tides.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 54:01Arthur Brooks?

  You know, you've got the tides that come in and the tides that go out. But here's an interesting thing. You know, when I was a kid, I used to love to fish. I was really, really into it. Nobody in my family fished. And I remember the first time I tried to go, I was 11 years old. I went to go fishing on the Oregon coast. I used to go, I grew up in Seattle, would go visit my aunt who had a trailer in Lincoln City, Oregon. I had this little fishing pole and I put all my paper route money into it. Felt like I grew up in a log cabin or something, but anyway. And I'm fishing off the rocks. I didn't know what I was doing. I wasn't catching anything for several hours. And an old, like, wizened mariner comes up to me. And he says, hey, kid, are you catching anything? And I said, no, not even a bite. And he says, because you're doing it wrong. And I said, what am I doing wrong, sir? And he says, you gotta wait for the falling tide.

• 54:43Arthur Brooks?

  That's the time between the tides, when the tide is going out really, really, really fast. And I said, well, this makes sense. All the fisher guys said, no, no, no. That's what's stirring up the bait fish and the plankton and the fish go crazy. They'll bite anything that moves. He says, like, 45 minutes. So we just sat there for 45 minutes. He had his fishing pole. And he says, he's looking at his watch, he says, now, and we throw him, and we're pulling him out one after another. We're pulling him out one after. We catch 20 fish. And, and this goes on for half an hour and we're exhausted. And, and afterwards, we're just sitting on this rock. I mean, after, he's just like, I didn't know this old guy. And he, he lights up a cigarette. And he's getting all philosophical. I mean, he'd be arrested at this point, right? Today. And he, and he, and he, and he says, kid, you know, during, it's called a falling tide when this happens. During a falling tide, you can only make one mistake.

• 55:26Arthur Brooks?

  And I said, what is it? He said, not having your line in the water. You get the point, right? You learn and you grow when you're between the tides. And that's what you just told me. That's, that's lesson seven.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Can we make a book out of this? This seems like it should be.

• 55:41Arthur Brooks?

  Well, your memoir is a lesson.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 55:45Arthur Brooks?

  This is a masterclass, Hoda.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 55:46Arthur Brooks?

  Your, your life is a masterclass in how to do it. This is not a masterclass in how to become famous on TV. Because that's not the point.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 55:54Arthur Brooks?

  That's not the point at all. It's actually how to live a life, fully alive. We're going to review these in a second, but, um, but first, uh, before we do that, and, and we're almost out of time. Because, you know, you have other things you need to do. This is not your full-time job.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  This is not my full-time job.

• 56:08Arthur Brooks?

  I do want to talk about your brand new venture, though, before we, and, and Joy 101, which I love, which is why I'm involved in it too. Tell us more about that and how people can get involved in that.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Uh, it's a wellness platform because I kind of got hooked lately. I'd been an exerciser just like you and eating right, but I wasn't feeling my best. And I thought, I wonder why. Like I'm trying everything, but I don't think I'm feeling right. So I started doing some breath work, which I initially thought was just kind of woo woo and silly. And found it to be transformative and I started meditating too. And I found that to be like a settling of all the things that were careening through my mind.

• 56:44Arthur Brooks?

  And so people understand there, you're also a traditionally religious person. So this is not at odds with your, with your Christian faith.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  This is not at odds at all, at all. So I think what this means is like, this can be a place where people go who want another kind of settling. They want to feel calm and they want to have clarity. So on this, on this platform, you can learn to do all of those things that we just described. And it can give you a sense of like clarity and energy is what I got from it. So I felt better and I was like, so I was doing it at dinner parties. I'm like, lay down, try this breathing thing. And people are like, wait, what? We're trying to, we want to eat the chicken. I go, let's try this first. So we, they did the, the breath work. They did all the different things and felt different. I felt completely transformed from doing it.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  So I said, let me, let me put all these things on an app. Motivational speeches, courses, you know, prayers, meditation, movement. So all that's on the app. We're also doing a bunch of retreats and we have all kinds of stuff. So.

• 57:52Arthur Brooks?

  That was just your first retreat?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:53Arthur Brooks?

  It was unbelievable.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  You're, you're, I mean, Arthur was, well, I said, we peaked really early in that retreat. You were the first speaker. I'm like, never do that again. Never have Arthur speak first. Have him bring it home. But those kinds of things are, and that's, that's my new love. So you can sign up to Joy 101. It's a platform. It's an app. It's an experience and it's all the things. And we have great people like you who are on our advisory board. Maria Shriver is on it. Joanna Gaines is on it.

• 58:19Arthur Brooks?

  Stephanie Rule.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Stephanie Rule. We have all kinds of really great people. Yeah.

• 58:22Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, that's terrific. It's an amazing resource and I strongly recommend it to everybody. How much of your time is that taking?

• 58:27Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 58:28Arthur Brooks?

  That's mostly what you're doing, right?

• 58:29Speaker 01

  I didn't know, starting a business was so hard.

• 58:31Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  You know, I didn't know. It's like, wow. So I'm sprinting through that, but I'm also realizing like, when your time is controlled by yourself. It's a diff- there's more of it.

• 58:42Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  I just feel like there's more of it.

• 58:43Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  I don't know why. It just feels like I'm making choices so I get to decide.

• 58:47Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, and you wrote a big bestselling book that came out in September.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:50Arthur Brooks?

  That did real well, that people need to read.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:52Arthur Brooks?

  That's gonna go in the show notes, everybody.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Great.

• 58:53Arthur Brooks?

  Make sure you can get that. And you're still doing TV.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Still doing TV, yeah. I'm doing-

• 58:57Arthur Brooks?

  Did the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, which was phenomenal.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do the Olympics, I'm gonna do the Super Bowl, like the good, the good stuff. You know, you get to do the good stuff.

• 59:04Arthur Brooks?

  Still pretty busy. You're still pretty busy. You're just not doing day after day after day after day.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 59:09Arthur Brooks?

  And the reason is because you started to manage your career as opposed to letting your career manage you.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Is that lesson nine?

• 59:14Arthur Brooks?

  Well, I guess that's lesson eight.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Lesson eight.

• 59:16Arthur Brooks?

  That's lesson eight. Can we go through the, the, the eight chapters of the Book of Hoda?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm ready.

• 59:22Arthur Brooks?

  Chapter one.

• 59:24Arthur Brooks?

  There are things in your, in your life that you don't choose, that you don't like. What you have a choice over is how you frame them. Do you frame it as just a tragedy? Or do you frame that, do you frame it as an adventure? As an opportunity for something new? That's your choice. That's, that's, that's chapter one. Chapter two is what you learn from your father. You have constraints. People put barriers in your way. You can accept those constraints, or you can actually see them as an opportunity for you to pivot to something that's actually better. Turn your constraints into decisions. Thanks, Dad.

• 59:59Arthur Brooks?

  Thanks, Dad. Chapter three. You have a choice to give up or you can persist. And the truth of the matter is that persistence itself actually creates its own destiny. Twenty-seven tries. Chapter four. You gotta keep learning because the, the mindset of the student is actually what creates success as well. If you're a learner, you will become more successful. You're not a given product, on the contrary. You're a work in progress. You're clay to be molded. But you have to have the humility to continue to be a student all throughout your life. Chapter five is you need to connect with other people. You need other people. But there's only one point of connection that you have with other people, and it's not your greatest strength.

• 1:00:45Arthur Brooks?

  It's actually the weakness that you share. It's the sacrifice that you make. It's the suffering that is actually part of life that connects you to other people and bonds you to them in love and the connection that you need. Your suffering is your strength.

• 1:01:00Arthur Brooks?

  Next is that you can choose love, or you can choose pure specialness in the world's eyes. Choose love. The seventh is actually, you know, we got mom, we got dad, but we got hope as a theological virtue, but also as your daughter. Sometimes you've just got to choose a new tree. And last but not least, if you're going to choose a new tree, it means that you're managing your own life and you're managing your own career. And the worst thing that you can do is to be carried along by your own success, because that means that your career and your life are managing you. And that's not to be fully alive. Dig in and manage it yourself. Take the wheel, because you're in charge. After eight. The finale.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  I love this.

• 1:01:42Arthur Brooks?

  But we're not at the finale yet, because there's so much more. There's so many more big adventures ahead. And I'm so delighted to be, to help people learn from you, to be the tour guide in this, and to help people understand that what you do is not just the product of what people see on television. It's the, it's the product of a life well-lived. And that's what people can learn from. That's what's been enriching to me and I think to our audience on Office Hours today. Thank you. Thank you for, thank you for joining me here today. And thanks to all of you for joining me on Office Hours. As always, you've got something you want to feed back on? [email protected] or any place where you leave comments, we read them. Follow us on socials, do all the things that people do. Do like and subscribe, because the algorithmic gods will then smile on us.

• 1:02:27Arthur Brooks?

  And of course, that makes us all very happy. I hope that you'll take these ideas to heart and live your own best life. Because remember that you are writing a book that is your life. And the very first page of that wonderful book is today. Do you know what's going to come in the chapters that come after? You have a lot of control in that. And I hope that today has given you some ideas on how to write that beautiful book that is the book of your life. Have a wonderful week. See you next week.