The Perfect Storm That Clobbered Hedge Funds

Even before the US midterms, the AI trade was weakening. Just look at all the headlines from October in the hedge fund world https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-11-06/crowded-hedge-fund-trades-are-unwinding-fast-after-ugly-october — it was one of the bloodiest periods the industry has faced in recent memory. Now, after the blue wave, things continue to look uncertain. So what's going to happen with the AI buildout now? And what about the big Anthropic IPO? Today's episode is a two-parter, one that examines both the hedge fund carnage of the last few weeks and the broader macro conditions we find ourselves in after the midterm elections. We speak with two of our Bloomberg News colleagues — Nishant Kumar, chief correspondent for hedge funds, and macro strategist Michael Ball — and they help lay out why October was a historic month for hedge funds and what they are paying attention to now as jitters from the AI trade continue to work their way through the market. Read more: Crowded Hedge Fund Trades Unwind Fast After Ugly October https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-11-06/crowded-hedge-fund-trades-are-unwinding-fast-after-ugly-october Only Bloomberg.com subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox, plus unlimited access to the site and app. bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:34Tracy Alloway?

  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway.

• 1:38Joe Weisenthal?

  And I'm Joe Weisenthal.

• 1:39Tracy Alloway?

  Joe, I heard with all the market volatility recently.

• 1:43Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 1:43Tracy Alloway?

  I heard a pod is blowing up.

• 1:46Joe Weisenthal?

  You heard a rumor.

• 1:47Tracy Alloway?

  I heard a rumor.

• 1:48Joe Weisenthal?

  Is that something being passed? Anyone, anyone here, anyone hearing talk of a pod blowing up?

• 1:52Tracy Alloway?

  Somewhere a pod is always blowing up. No, but I think actually the past week or so for a lot of hedge funds has been kind of historic.

• 2:00Joe Weisenthal?

  So I would say October, just from the numbers that we've already got in awful. And I would say with this drip, there's been weakness in a lot of the popular AI adjacent names, really since the middle of the summer.

• 2:12Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah.

• 2:12Joe Weisenthal?

  But it's building and building, already getting kind of ugly. And then maybe with the midterms or something, you get this huge washout. And yeah, big numbers, big losses.

• 2:21Tracy Alloway?

  Right. So we're recording this on November 10th. And I say the past week because that's when we got all the headlines about October performance for a lot of these funds. But for multi-strats in particular, I mean, we've done a lot of episodes on these. These were the, the hot new funds. They were supposed to be able to manage money in up and down markets instead of relying on like one star investor or one centralized team. You had all these little pods that were supposed to be making bets independent of each other, uncorrelated. Correlation, as I always say, is one of the trickiest concepts on Wall Street to actually model. And so it looks like there are some questions about the business model. Did everyone basically pile into the same trade?

• 3:05Joe Weisenthal?

  Implicitly. So this is, I think, the number one question, which is that could you have made a lot of money in the last 12 or 24 months without implicitly being long AI? Was there some other?

• 3:19Tracy Alloway?

  And probably leveraged on long AI.

• 3:20Joe Weisenthal?

  And leveraged, and leveraged long AI. But like, this is like the question, like you can dress up the AI trade in a million ways, right? So you could do it through chips. You could even theoretically create exposure to AI through rates, whatever. But at the end of the day, if you were making money over the last year up until recently, were you doing it by implicitly being long AI? And did your boss, the risk manager at your firm, understand that the way you were making money was implicitly long AI, if in fact that's what you were doing?

• 3:50Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah, basically where multi-strats just momentum dressed up in, I don't know, diversified cheap clothing. I'm just drawing that metaphor, but I think that is the question. And I'm glad to say we have two very special, perfect guests.

• 4:03Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 4:03Tracy Alloway?

  We're going to be discussing the hedge fund performance specifically with Nishant Kumar. He is the chief correspondent for hedge funds over at Bloomberg News. And then we're going to have on Michael Ball, who's a macro strategist at Bloomberg News to talk generally about what's going on in markets because there's a lot.

• 4:18Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Tracy Alloway?

  Right now. So why don't we go ahead and get started? Nishant, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots.

• 4:23Speaker 06

  Thank you for having me.

• 4:24Tracy Alloway?

  Why don't we start with a basic question? You've been pretty busy in recent days. I think you've written dozens of stories at this point, but how bad was October slash early November for a lot of these funds?

• 4:37Speaker 06

  Well, how busy I was in the last 16 years of covering hedge funds, I never saw a day like last week.

• 4:44Joe Weisenthal?

  Wow.

• 4:45Speaker 06

  I just took a screenshot of all my stories and posted on Twitter and it got like 750,000 views. So that tells you how busy it was. But in terms of hedge fund performance, look, it was pretty bad. The interesting bit wasn't just that hedge funds lost money. It was that lots of different strategies got hit at the same time. So coming back to your main point that how correlated some of these strategies have become, take for example, Millennium, Ballyasni, Point 72, Exodus Point. These, these are all the mainstream port shops that you, although you know, ports sound

• 5:27Speaker 06

  like an insult to many of the people in the industry, but that's what they are. And they all lost money together. So these are the hedge funds who have the biggest concentration of assets, biggest concentration of talent, the most sought after hedge funds from investors because they have a track record of making money when the downturn hits. And they all failed together and they lost money last month. Millennium was down 2.3%. Now on its own, this doesn't, this may not sound like a huge loss, but in their own context, they annualize at around 14%.

• 6:11Speaker 06

  And when they lose 2.3% in a month, that, that's a lot for a steady vehicle like Millennium. Same story at Ballyasni, same story at Exodus Point, Point 72. So yeah, I would say it was really bad. Normally you might see equities had a bad month, but macro did well, or credit go ahead or stock pickers were fine. But this was like a perfect storm. Everyone failed together.

• 6:38Joe Weisenthal?

  Wait, can you explain to me why down 2.3% is that bad? I mean, it's bad, but it's.

• 6:43Tracy Alloway?

  Well, for a start, it was worse than the S and P 500, right? In October.

• 6:47Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, sure. No, yeah, I get that. But like, explain to the listener, and by the listener, I mean me, why 2.3% not the, which doesn't sound like the end of the world is, wow, this is one of the craziest months you've ever experienced as a reporter.

• 7:05Speaker 06

  So as I said, that again, 2.3 in isolation is not bad.

• 7:11Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 7:11Speaker 06

  But you have a specific purpose in a portfolio.

• 7:15Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 7:16Speaker 06

  The value of a hedge fund in a pension fund portfolio or a sovereign wealth portfolio, and we are talking about this tens of billions of dollars worth of portfolios. Your role in a portfolio is to soften the blow from any market turmoil.

• 7:32Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 7:32Speaker 06

  That's the purpose. And you are not expected to match S and S and P 500 returns in, when S and P 500 is surging. That's not what is expected from a hedge fund. But when it goes down, when there is a turmoil, investors look at you to protect you. And that's where the problem is.

• 7:54Tracy Alloway?

  Did anyone, to be fair, it was bad for pretty much every hedge fund out there, but there was at least one I saw that produced positive returns for October, and that was, I think Citadel. What did they do differently to others? Or what do we think they did differently?

• 8:10Speaker 06

  Well, we don't know how, but yes, there were some exceptional winners on the multi-strat side. Citadel was one, Dushaw was another, and there were some odd coin funds that did well. But overall, the picture is still, still down. Maybe some coins worked out well. If someone was shorting heavily, maybe they were positioned right for, for last month. But yeah, we don't have portfolio level details to explain what went right or even what went too wrong at certain hedge funds.

• 8:46Tracy Alloway?

  What's your working, I guess, hypothesis for why everything went wrong for the vast majority of funds?

• 8:54Speaker 06

  It was a complete mayhem last month. You had AI stocks crashing. You had a surprise election in Brazil. And you have this huge sell-off in the high bond market. And they all combined to create this perfect storm for a lot of different hedge fund industry. You had like the French issues and French bonds going down as well. So there were so many different trades that they were crowded trades and all these hedge funds had piled into them. And one after another, they started to go down. Take for example, just the AI stocks.

• 9:36Speaker 06

  We don't know about situational awareness yet, but there is another fund called Vara.

• 9:41Tracy Alloway?

  There was a rumor that they were piling back into the market, right?

• 9:45Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, tell us about this Vara company or this Vara fund. I hadn't heard of it until someone said it was like a situational awareness clone.

• 9:53Speaker 06

  So it was, and we wrote a story that how much of an portfolio overlap there was between Vara and situational awareness. So Vara, for example, lost 33% in October. That's like losing a third of your portfolio. But here's a killer statistic, they are still up for the year. So that's how much money they had made before losing. They had a tough month earlier this year as well. So that's the kind of destruction we are seeing in AI stock. If you are crowded and largely concentrated in, in a few AI stocks, you take Whale Rock, again, an equity fund down 12%.

• 10:36Speaker 06

  So they were these highly concentrated, single strategies, maybe single market fund, which lost a lot of money. But then if you look at macro hedge funds, they also lost money. Carcassworld, which has like billions and billions of dollars and they're a macro hedge fund, they lost 6.4%. That was their biggest down month since they started trading. Chris Roko is another legendary macro hedge fund manager. We just reported today, he lost almost 5% last month. So there was really nowhere to hide in this market last month.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  What's next for virtual assets? I'm Jacob Rees, host of Economy Scale, a series exploring growth in key global sectors. And in this episode, we're diving into the digital forces shaping finance. Sean McHugh from Dubai-based Virtual Assets Regulatory Authority has this to say.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  We're seeing a lot of institutional players come in, digital asset dedicated hedge funds, high-frequency traders and that sort of thing, and folks who service institutional clients.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  As more capital enters the market, adaptive regulation is likely to become increasingly key. Reese Merrick of Ripple says.

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  A lot of regulators globally would like to keep the industry at arm's length. That's the opposite here. I think also what you'll find is that regulation and frameworks can come out, but some of them are maybe a slight iteration on some 80-year-old policy and not actually in line with what the technology can do and offer. And again, that's very different in Dubai.

• 12:24Speaker 00

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• 15:44Joe Weisenthal?

  Earlier this year, we did a live show of Odd Lots and Torsten Slok from Apollo, we had him deliver his slides, his favorite charts of the time. The king of charts. The king of charts, Torsten Slok from Apollo. And his basic thesis is that the market has emerged into the, there's the AI factor and then there's the anti-AI factor. And maybe like you can't hide because everything is implicitly this trade one way or another. When you look at the results, do you come to the same conclusion that whether you're talking about a macro fund, whether you're talking about a sort of traditional long short, whether you're talking about a single manager, whether you're talking about a strategic

• 16:26Joe Weisenthal?

  one, that at the end of the day, if you had been making money in this market prior to October or maybe prior to June or whatever, that you had been making money implicitly via long AI?

• 16:40Speaker 06

  Well, if that is the measure, then I don't know who is anti-AI because I don't see many winners here.

• 16:49Joe Weisenthal?

  Like, yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 06

  For the whole industry as a whole. There might be some exceptions, but it doesn't seem to be an equal split or even maybe 25-75. It looks like the entire industry has piled into this AI theme, maybe not directly through stocks, but maybe they have exposure to credit that has exposure to AI. Or maybe AI has started to impact macro, started to impact interest rates.

• 17:19Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, I was just going to say, short treasuries could be an AI trade or a long AI trade, right?

• 17:25Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah. Well, actually, on this note, we did get a really interesting report. We do have some analysis that we can look at to get like clues of what these funds were actually doing. So Pivotal Path put out this report last week saying that hedge funds were basically all crowding into the same names, which again, for multi-strats at least, was exactly what you were supposed to not see. They were supposed to be diversified and making all these independent bets. Talk to us about what Pivotal Path actually found.

• 17:56Speaker 06

  So mainly they were arguing for crowded trades. That was my reading and I will separate it from momentum and everything.

• 18:04Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 18:05Speaker 06

  You can like have 10 very sophisticated hedge funds independently deciding they like the same stock, perhaps because they're liquid or maybe the earnings are strong or maybe it fits in their risk framework. That doesn't make them momentum traders, but it does create this problem that if they all change their mind at the same time, which seems to have what has happened maybe last month, then it's a big problem. So Pivotal Path says the 10 largest firms in its study controlled about 2.2 trillion, including borrowed money.

• 18:44Speaker 06

  That is a massive amount of money and the capital backing that trade was something like $303.5 billion. That gives you a sense of how much leverage is in the system. So the report itself doesn't predict stress, but if you look at another report, which is from Goldman, the broader work they have done shows that correlations between multi-strategy funds themselves have strayed roughly 0.2, 0.3 band for years. So that doesn't point to maybe too much correlation, but crowding has become a big issue and it's backed by huge amounts of leverage.

• 19:29Speaker 06

  And then it's concentrated in this tiny little world, or maybe not tiny after Anthropic IPO, tiny world of AI stocks. So when one thing's crack, it leads to like the flood of problems for hedge funds and that's what happened last month.

• 19:46Tracy Alloway?

  So just on the leverage point, when a fund's positions start to go down, and I'm particularly interested in multi-strats here, but we can talk about funds in general too. When positions start to go down, what happens next? Is it like the portfolio manager decides to start cutting risk or the centralized risk management team says you have to cut back on risk or you have a volatility model that says you need to trim down exposure? Or in some famous cases recently, does the prime broker start asking for more collateral? And so you're forced to start liquidating positions?

• 20:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, so let's look at this multi-strat model. In a way, they are the real hedge fund industry right now. Like everything connects to them. You know, the way I think about multi-strat is they are like a hedge fund supermarket. Instead of one star manager making all the decisions, you have these hundreds of individual portfolio managers or what we call pods, trading different things. So one team may be trading US stocks, another macro, another trading credit commodities and so on and so forth. And sitting above all of that is a very powerful risk management machine.

• 21:05Speaker 06

  At most of the, at all the hedge funds, like this is the key. The firm decides how much capital each PM gets, how much they can lose, how much leverage they can use, how much risk the whole platform wants. If a PM loses money, risk gets cut. So for example, if you have $100 to manage and if you lose 5% of that, so $5, at many of the firms, your capital will be cut into half. If you lose another 2.5%, so total loss becoming 7.5, you are closed out. You can be liquidated and you can get fired immediately.

• 21:49Speaker 06

  And that's why this is a very ruthless risk management arrangement that multi-strats have. And that's what makes them wonderful in a way. This ruthlessness make the machine work really well because they don't allow you to lose so much that you become a problem for the whole hedge fund. If the losses continue, the allocation can disappear and obviously eventually the portfolio manager. The theory here really is that lots of relatively small uncorrelated return streams are more robust than like one gigantic star portfolio manager putting on a bet. So you are avoiding the key man risk, like a star manager can make you really, really

• 22:33Speaker 06

  insanely rich, but if he gets it wrong, he has the ability to also destroy your machine altogether.

• 22:44Joe Weisenthal?

  So as you're, he said, they're very, okay, there's this AI trade, but there's various flavors of how you can express bullishness on AI. And so let's say I'm the risk manager at one of these and Tracy is sort of long chips or maybe long memory.

• 23:01Tracy Alloway?

  I would never, no, go on.

• 23:04Joe Weisenthal?

  And Nishant, you're like, short treasuries because you think there's going to be a lot of capex and that's going to drive inflation, et cetera. Isn't it my job to say like, yes, they're actually making the same trade. This is not diversification. And so it's like, yeah, maybe, maybe I'll fire both of you. But isn't it for having a bad month because treasuries rallied, have rallied a lot over the last few weeks. But isn't it my fault for not having identified the fact that you, that you are not giving me diversification? You are all making the same trade in different skins.

• 23:39Speaker 06

  Well, have you seen any risk manager fire himself?

• 23:42Joe Weisenthal?

  I don't know. Like, do you ever hear, is that a thing? But shouldn't, if I have a lot of PMs making correlated bets, isn't it my fault?

• 23:52Speaker 06

  Well, the beauty of correlation is that it's not visible all the time.

• 23:59Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 06

  It goes up and down. And in moments like last month, it really goes up.

• 24:06Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 24:06Speaker 06

  So that interconnectedness, the impact of leverage in the system, how everyone is positioned, it's a very complex mathematics, I think. And it's a complex job. Plus, you can't rule it out. If you see, you know, MAC7 and all these tech stuffs going so much. And if you, as a risk manager, come in and say that, okay, let's cut it out. And if you underperform, that's a very hard decision to make. And that's where some of these multi-strat, I mean, to be precise, I mean, they are great at it. They do care about correlation and they do manage it. But eventually, if everything falls together, and it's not that everything

• 24:50Speaker 06

  fell together, it was first, it was AI, then you sort of kind of rebalance your portfolio, that the bonds go down, then the problem in the credit market, then Brazil. So it happened week after week after week. So that's where I think all the problems started to emerge.

• 25:11Tracy Alloway?

  Well, I still remember, we did that episode with Krishna Kumar about multi-strats. This was one of the first episodes we ever did about multi-strats. And his characterization of the funds was that they're not maximizing for long-term returns, they're maximizing for short-term returns. So like, every macro event that happens, or every move, they react to it very quickly, right? And so when you have a succession of all these like idiosyncratic things happening, you could see them sort of cutting positions. I think they cut AI exposure going into the midterms, but then the market started rallying on Wednesday. And so they went back in and then it falls on like Friday.

• 25:49Joe Weisenthal?

  And Thursday was the day they got a really.

• 25:51Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah. And, and so they're just like reacting very strongly to each new day, which I think has posed a problem, certainly in recent weeks. So on that note, what do we need to see to know that the multi-strats are like piling back into the market, or that leverage limits or exposure limits are starting to go up and they're able to take on risk again?

• 26:11Speaker 06

  Well, there are many statistics in the market and banks are in the best position to, to see that. But this week, things have already recovered a lot, it seems. There is already mean reversion. There is buying the dip, it seems. But the problem is, we are in November and 10 days are gone. And a lot of these portfolios are bleeding. On top of that, talking to people, the anecdotal evidence I see is that dozens and dozens of portfolio managers, big risk takers in equity space, in macro space, in credit space,

• 26:53Speaker 06

  they have been fired, or they have been poached by others, or they are spending their long known competes on the beach. So there are a lot of people who are not in the market. And we are in November, just 40 more days left for this year. Do they have courage to get into this market and take risk and make the most out of the next one and a half month? That is the question. And at the same time, not so many people are out of this market. So next two months is going to be very, very, very difficult. You know, what will it take traders to take risk now? And if they are wrong, you know, already bad performance can become so worse that they will lose their job anyways.

• 27:38Tracy Alloway?

  Joe, I just had a great idea for Odd Lots merch.

• 27:42Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Tracy Alloway?

  You know, those like religious devotional candles?

• 27:45Joe Weisenthal?

  Oh, yeah, devotional candles.

• 27:46Tracy Alloway?

  With like pictures of Jesus or whoever. We need to do one that's like mean reversion. You light a candle and pray to the God of mean reversion to come save you.

• 27:55Joe Weisenthal?

  That would be good. We should make some odd lots of devotional candles. I really like that idea. Nishant, I just have one last question. Setting aside the performance of October, and this is an industry related question, but setting aside the performance of October, you've just been hearing a lot about sort of like, how many, how many more multi-strats or variations on a theme are really necessary? How many more launches can we have that roughly either try to replicate the Citadel model, or the Millennium model, or whatever it is? Where do we stand with this? Like, in your view, have we, is this

• 28:36Joe Weisenthal?

  just sort of saturated? Especially when you consider the cost of, say, acquiring new talent. So I, again, in my, in my imaginary world, I want to launch a new multi-strat. I'm going to have to pay up to higher seasoned traders that know what they're doing. Like, where do we see the sort of, what inning is this industry in?

• 28:59Speaker 06

  So we have already seen the problems in the multi-strat industry in terms of starting a new multi-strat. We saw at Jane Global, we saw at Wall Eye Cutting, part of their equity trading, we have seen Isler shutting down. So that's one side of the story. But in terms of demand for these strategies, why do we need another multi-strategy hedge fund? Or why do anyone try to launch a new multi-strategy hedge fund? Because investors really want this strategy.

• 29:33Tracy Alloway?

  It lets you run more money, right? Like, the more pods you add, the more money you get to run.

• 29:39Speaker 06

  You can, you can, but there is a limit to that. Like, how many ways, if you already have like dozens and dozens of equity portfolio managers, how much an incremental or additional five more equity fund managers will diversify your strategy? So I think there is a cap on that as well. So investors want it. They can't deploy enough capital to these multi-strategy hedge funds. If you look at the top players, all of them are close to new money. One example, which shows you how hot these hedge funds are, Millennium wanted to raise about $20

• 30:20Speaker 06

  billion in new capital early this year. They got demand for more than $30 billion. They took in $22 billion. I don't think more than 2% of the hedge fund industry, or even 1% of the hedge fund industry by number, manage $20 billion. So that's the kind of demand that, that these hedge funds have. At the same time, many of these large players are returning capital. Between D Shaw, Point72 and Citadel, almost $35, $40 billion have been returned to investors. Now, those investors need to find a new home for this capital.

• 31:01Speaker 06

  Where do they put it? This is a $40 billion problem for investors. So capacity is a real issue. If someone can genuinely build a multi-strat and create decent capacity with reasonable returns, there is demand for another multi-strat. The question, whether someone can build it or not, is very tough to answer. We have seen many failed attempts. And that is the problem. Whether a new hedge fund, multi-strategy hedge fund, has the right and resources to sort of employ another or poach another trader and hire the best people, that is the big question. I don't think they can.

• 31:43Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah. I think the obvious takeaway from this is that more teams, more pods, more money does not necessarily translate into more risk-adjusted returns, basically. Yeah. All right. Nishant, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots. Really appreciate it. We'll let you get back to reporting because there's probably eight stories that you need to write today.

• 32:02Joe Weisenthal?

  Thank you.

• 32:18Speaker 00

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• 32:49Tracy Alloway?

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• 33:31Tracy Alloway?

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• 34:22Joe Weisenthal?

  All right, well, that was our conversation, Nishant Kumar. And now let's talk a little bit more about the markets. We have here Michael Ball, macro strategist at Bloomberg News. He's going to explain to us all these big moves. Michael, thanks for coming on the pod. First time, I think, right?

• 34:36Speaker 01

  First time. Thanks for having me. Big honor.

• 34:38Joe Weisenthal?

  I don't even know where to start. Crazy markets, but you told me that the first 30 minutes of trading last Thursday, right? So two days after the election was like the biggest puke for retail investors since COVID?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Well, it was the biggest selling of single stock. So again, that is going to be mostly retail from the way we viewed it because we know there's been a decent amount of degrossing, de netting from the hedge fund community. But look, everyone was involved. So I guess guys that were still holding on one way or another, whether they're retail or whether they're institutional to some of these single stock names, specifically in growth and tech, really just kind of, without really a major macro catalyst, dumped at that open Thursday. And it was a sucker punch because Wednesday you saw people rebuilding positions. You saw vol falling. And it really made it really kind of even more curious to why all of a sudden Thursday morning this happened.

• 35:29Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah, so this is the big question, right? So people expected a strong turnout for the Dems in the midterm elections, right? I don't think a lot of people expected necessarily the blue tsunami, but like it was leaning Dem for sure. And then on Wednesday, the market reaction was pretty muted. We saw, you know, stocks actually go up. And then Thursday, everyone seemed to just like wake up and decide that was entirely wrong. What happened? Like, what were people thinking?

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Wednesday was interesting too, because the hyperscalers got a bid because the thought was that more regulation from this blue wave, and we saw all these things on the ballot for the AI initiatives, would force basically them to pull back on capex, it'd be better free cash flow, and hence their core businesses would do better. And here we go. The thing that'd been driving their earnings growth was now a negative and the things that were kind of more tendential were just on the side. So it was a super interesting setup Wednesday into Thursday. And again, Thursday, we didn't have a necessary call. So we had our standard micro stories with some AI headwinds. Semis and sort of AI trade on Wednesday had been weak. They had been underperforming. The rotation was back in. We saw equal weight outperforming. We saw value doing well. But then lo and behold, Thursday happened. And what happened was once we started breaking levels on the SPX, and this is the Nasdaq was already sort of in correction territory.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  We'd already had a big negative gamma backdrop, something I can talk about more, which was basically people were positioned.

• 36:46Tracy Alloway?

  Love Greek letters on the show.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  But SPX was still hanging in there. And we were above this sort of 7,700 level, 7,600 level, a range we'd been in for several months. This rotation that had occurred over the last few months had buffered the weakness we'd seen sort of in the AI trade in October. And subsequently, that all sort of fell apart as levels broke and feeding became self feeding. Actually, sorry, the weakness became self feeding.

• 37:08Tracy Alloway?

  This is where the sort of like automatic mechanics of markets come into play. So the idea that like dealers have to cut positions just because they're breaking key levels, just because they need to maintain like a certain volatility weight and things like that.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  So maybe just as a quick background, we already knew in the summer we had a massive loss of momentum from the AI trade. August, we saw a rebuild in that. So what happened here is that basically legacy AI calls, some of these autocallables, some of these exotic products that you guys have actually talked about.

• 37:36Joe Weisenthal?

  Which we've talked about on the podcast.

• 37:37Tracy Alloway?

  This is why we've been talking, you know, people keep asking us like, why are you doing episodes on structured products? It's because it like impacts the entire market.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there was like a clearing event basically in July. And August was a rebuild. And what all this meant was that realized vol got sort of suppressed because the way volatility works is it's supply and demand as well. Obviously, you want to think about buying and selling, driving it. But it's a little more complicated because on the other side, there's a backdrop in option markets, which supplies basically delta and gamma into the market, which is a fancy way of saying vol suppression or vol acceleration. So when people talk about gamma, what they often mean is where the dealers are holding option positioning. Are they long or short options? And effectively, if they're long options, they suppress volatility. And if they're short options, they accelerate the move. So if I want to buy a put, I want downside protection. The dealer is short that put. So to delta hedge that as the market goes down, they are selling into the market,

• 38:27Speaker 01

  which exacerbates that move, which is exactly what happened Thursday. On top of all these other kind of, you know, cross currents. We had obviously some hedge fund news that they were blowing up. People were getting taps on the shoulder. We had sort of leveraged ETFs accelerating that because that's a big market and that has to exacerbate the move as well. That's a negative convexity product. And then all of a sudden, the vol control community and some of these systematic guys who are always the boogeyman that get blamed, but were actually quite active on Thursday, had to jump in because if volatility picks up, they have to degross. And even with sort of the CTAs being more neutral, that's another kind of buzzword that's often thrown around when we see these big market moves. So they chase trends. They too, although they were somewhat less long, were also very active in selling. And that was a perfect storm Thursday that got us basically to break all the ranges we'd been in for months and test new lows.

• 39:12Tracy Alloway?

  To my shame, Joe, we have never actually done a CTA episode. Like we've done levered ETFs, we've done vol funds, we've done structured products, all of that stuff. But we should do a CTA episode. The other thing is.

• 39:24Joe Weisenthal?

  Something about the CTAs feels very like 2010s.

• 39:26Tracy Alloway?

  I know. Well, yeah, people used to talk a lot about them in like the mid 2010s.

• 39:30Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, I feel like they're a little less.

• 39:31Tracy Alloway?

  But, but now we can talk about them again.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Well, like they're kind of like the boogeyman. Like you always hear them on these volatile days, like, oh, it's the CTAs again ruining the day.

• 39:38Joe Weisenthal?

  For.

• 39:39Tracy Alloway?

  Commodity trading advisory.

• 39:41Joe Weisenthal?

  But they're basically hedge fund or systematic ways of trading futures.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Active in most future markets.

• 39:48Tracy Alloway?

  People always blame them for gold moves as well. That's the funniest.

• 39:51Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay, so we get this huge sell off on the Thursday after the election. I'm curious if it's like, yeah, you could kind of maybe tie it to the election. But so like two weeks ago or a week and a half ago, we were talking to Alexander Altman over at Barclays. And one of the questions was like, we were already nervous. And it was like, well, why hadn't VIX? Why had the VIX been so low, et cetera? But there were like jitters long before Tuesday, building and building and building. So talk to us like, let's set aside the election and all that. What was this like sort of like building anxiety? I guess, starting in the middle of the summer and sort of accelerating into October all about.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I guess October really saw that shift in the capex narrative, where all of a sudden it wasn't a growth engine anymore. And it was about financing, about free cash flow. And again, about this nimbyism and electricity problems, right? The actual execution of the capex. And we saw that in yields, right? Because all of a sudden, we saw kind of a reversal in how yields were going with oil. Oil was still creeping up because we weren't obviously getting anywhere with Iran. But all of a sudden, we had growth concerns because all AI capex next year was going to crater. And then we were going to basically have no growth because that's been the primary driver as the narrative goes. And we saw sort of the 10 year and the curve flatten and basically everyone get more worried about growth. What ended up happening then is like the Nasdaq became much more negative. People were buying protection on it, not just in single stock names and AI, but now as an index hedge.

• 41:15Joe Weisenthal?

  But just sorry, just to be clear, was there like this? The whiplash from talking about chip shortage to chip glut felt like it happened overnight. And I'm sort of curious, like gamma and all that stuff aside, was there some reason that you could pull? Was there some earnings call? Was there some event where it's like this suddenly investors started flipping their perspective on the compute capacity question?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  As long as me, like you know how narratives can finally like enough needles on the camel's back. I don't really have one in mind to your point. I think the supply in the credit markets finally caught up to everything. The supply of actually equity paper, whether it was from Anthropic or from all these secondary issuances.

• 41:53Tracy Alloway?

  To me, like the moment that sticks out in my mind is the CoreWeave guys interview in the FT where he basically talked about raising all the capital in the world. Like you hear that from a senior executive at one of the most like prominent neo clouds out there. That to me is like the big flashing warning sign.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Elon said something to his SpaceX, maybe like three to 13 trillion dollars ultimately of capital raises. So it became this sort of bifurcated story where everyone was comfortable going into health. Care into quality and to sort of even staples and then basically hiding out in there, which was holding up the index while just selling and degrossing in sort of tech.

• 42:28Joe Weisenthal?

  Elon had a tweet about like

• 42:30Tracy Alloway?

  Just one, just one tweet.

• 42:32Joe Weisenthal?

  It was something about like questions about hypers, or sorry, about Neo Cloud. And I'm curious whether it's like, is like, is his view like create some FUD around non mega scale players of their ability to deliver?

• 42:47Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know. I think, I don't want to like sidetrack, but I think one of the bigger stories was also the, the micro compute story where people would have it at their desktop level.

• 42:57Joe Weisenthal?

  Oh, okay.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  So you wouldn't need the hyperscalers and the data centers because that, but I don't, yeah, I don't know about the answer.

• 43:03Joe Weisenthal?

  Follows price stuff. Nothing changed on there.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't really know. To your point, like there is, there was a multitudes of headwinds all at once. And then again, the credit markets were basically saying enough.

• 43:13Tracy Alloway?

  Well, actually, on this note, again, we're recording November 10th. Should I say the time? Is it one of those days?

• 43:19Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, 10:05. Now, I think market's kind of mild today.

• 43:22Tracy Alloway?

  All right. We just had the CPI data out and we also had Waller doing a lot of forward guidance, much to Wersh's chagrin, I guess, and talking about maybe even a 50 basis point rate hike in December. If you look at the Neo Clouds right now, these are companies that are borrowing a lot of money and are sort of like getting very leveraged. Surely, a lot of the stocks are up this morning. Surely, rate hikes, higher interest rates would be bad for that business model.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I heard you. I, I wrote about them yesterday because Iron came out last week and said, basically, the prepayments from customers was quite good. So the free cash flow is looking better for that particular name.

• 43:59Tracy Alloway?

  Interesting, yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  And their borrowing needs may need to go down. Effectively, everyone's waiting for CoreWeave, which has a little bit of a different leverage profile and a little more in the hole there. And then I guess we get Nebius too, which is more like Iron. So there seems to be also like a little bit of maybe differentiation now, even in that Neo class kind of sub world. Because if people are prepaying quicker, then obviously it's not as much borrowing. We know, you know, that's, that's simple. Let's see what CoreWeave does. Also, again, they're massively oversold. That index is down 70%. These are all sitting very negative positioning as well, and that positioning is very expensive to hold if volatility collapses or if the skew starts to change against you. So basically, if you didn't get out now and you're waiting for the next catalyst, maybe that's CoreWeave after the bell.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  But you just need constant negative news for this sort of negative gamma dynamic to hold, or you get bled out effectively out of the option positions. The premiums just decay.

• 44:49Joe Weisenthal?

  I mean, CoreWeave is reporting today?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, after the bell.

• 44:52Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay. So by the time listeners hear it, it'll be out, but as of right now.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that's a bigger risk event in some ways in CPI. Obviously, Waller coming out, upping the odds into the CPI was kind of not helpful. And you're seeing the two-year kind of sell-off pretty notably and react to that. But overall, I think the AI story really needs to stabilize and we may not get that until we get through some of this regulatory nimbyism worries, and that may take many months. But the actual positioning needs to stabilize. We need to see some rebuilding there because quite frankly, everyone's almost, you know, flat to short. And there's a lot of room now for kind of new guys to step in.

• 45:23Joe Weisenthal?

  Iron, actually, literally, November 2025 is $77 stock. Today it's a $21 stock.

• 45:29Tracy Alloway?

  Wow.

• 45:29Joe Weisenthal?

  But this is one of the ones that was like a Bitcoin miner, that then there's like, we have some like access to the electricity grid. Maybe there's something more valuable we could be doing.

• 45:37Tracy Alloway?

  People were into it like six months ago.

• 45:39Joe Weisenthal?

  Maybe there's something we could be doing with it that's different.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  I mean, the, the numbers were impressive. I'm digging as much as I can into the actual earnings calls of not only sort of the hyperscalers, but the Neo Clouds and also the pick and shovel guys at the industrial level. Everyone's backlog is pretty impressive. Iron's compute demand was very impressive, the growth there.

• 45:55Joe Weisenthal?

  Sure.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Obviously, lots of leverage, lots of headwinds there and very rate sensitive in a lot of ways. But overall, like, I still feel like the story was overdone when you see these 70% drawdowns. Now, I don't, you know, I'm like, well, the macro strategy at Bloomberg, so other heads can weigh in, but it does seem like there's been a notable drawdown and now the positioning's cleaned up.

• 46:12Joe Weisenthal?

  There are questions with some of these Neo Clouds. There are lots of questions, but also about like tenant quality, right? So like, I could be a customer of Iron and I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna spend with you over this, but like, it's not guaranteed, right? Like, the quality, I'm, I'm not saying any, I don't know like who their clients are, but these are all concerns that start to creep in about like, how good are your? I mean, I do think of them as real estate. How good are your tenants?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I think that's why the question now isn't necessarily 27, which looks more secure for a lot of these guys as far as the backlogs, the prepayments and the sort of the confidence we have in the earnings, it's 28. Like, the whole story on 28 after the blue wave changed because projects in kind of under already being done, aren't really at risk of being canceled in Texas. Now, we got to hear from Ohio and Georgia. Obviously, we have New Mexico, Arizona. There's many states that will have many varying things, but like, the worry isn't necessarily the things that are already on the ground being worked on. The worry is new projects and that means 28 earnings. And that obviously affects the Neo Clouds in that sense because how much does then their costs equate to compute costs?

• 47:16Tracy Alloway?

  Well, also on, on the compute tenants, like just going back to the conversation we had with Nishant about multi-strategy hedge funds, diversification would seem to be an issue too, right? If all of your tenants are in one way or another exposed to AI, which I'm guessing they probably are, right?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, Iron got hit because Microsoft, and Microsoft wanted them to upgrade their chips apparently, which was a setback for a project. Because now the chips are moving faster than the projects can get done.

• 47:43Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  So there's a lot of, like, again, you guys have been covering this well, super complicated and very hard to get one narrative, but it's all operational risk now.

• 47:50Joe Weisenthal?

  Just curious, were, were you a little bit surprised that, and we're going to record an episode on this ASAP, but that the Jensen scandal did not have ripples outside of Nvidia? I mean, there's two, there's actually three pertinent things. Nvidia was not down that much. Nvidia had been down, is having a bad year. It's way off its highs, like many of these other names. The news is not totally new. Bloomberg, like, a lot of this was basically out there. It all just sort of became top of mind at once. But like, are you a little surprised at this point that like, here's the crown jewel of the AI infrastructure story and like, we really don't know much about how it's going to be managed in a few months?

• 48:31Speaker 01

  I go back and forth in this, and this has been, obviously, the debate we've all been having for 24 hours now, or since it broke this weekend. And literally, I think the AI trade now has become bigger than the anthropics and Nvidia's. And I get that Nvidia is seen as central for the financing, but I also push back that that's going to change if the CEO changes. Maybe the growth trajectory as far as the advancements of new chips and where they take kind of M and A and like how they expand in that sense will change if Jensen leaves. But overall, as the cornerstone, and I'm not yet seeing anything that would make me think that's shaky. And again, yesterday was really the pain trade of everyone getting squeezed out of shorts and covering puts. So like the fact that everything else went up in the semis and sort of AI pick and shovel was, was more mechanical again. That's sort of what I, what the main point should be.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  The last sort of three or four days since Wednesday literally have been just mechanical versus sort of AI narrative shifting a lot, in my opinion. That's just my opinion.

• 49:20Tracy Alloway?

  I guess we should talk about the Anthropic IPO as well, which is the other, I guess, event risk that's sort of coming up on the horizon. So they released, I guess, their preliminary valuation, 1.4 trillion dollars that they're aiming for, which is down from what a lot of people were expecting just even a few weeks ago.

• 49:37Joe Weisenthal?

  Two, yeah.

• 49:37Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah. When you have all this new equity supply, I guess, coming into the market, would you expect to see that have an impact on other AI stocks?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. And I think obviously people have to sort of rebalance. I think two, there's two broader things. One, this year has been one of the first years where actual broader equity supply is no longer shrinking. Buybacks, as we know, were primarily being driven by hyperscalers, which free cash flow now has shrunk enough that that buyback pulse, at least for 27, is totally under question. And it's come off this year. And when you take employee compensation, it's even less. You know, we had three years there since basically 24 where equity supply was actually shrinking. So that was very good as you still had massive passive flow coming from even outside the corporate buybacks. Now, to your point, like, yeah, it's going to crowd out, but with that said, like, it's 80 billion. It looks like that's kind of the number they're throwing around.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  I mean, SpaceX was absorbed well, and I'd say that was a more risky proposition in some ways, although we can debate that as well and probably a higher valuation.

• 50:32Tracy Alloway?

  We don't need to debate that. It's fine.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  But I guess, look, these are big numbers in theory, but the market's pretty big and it can absorb this as long as the story behind it is, is compelling, which I think it is. And the, and valuations have come off now a little bit. Like, if it was at 2 trillion, I probably would be more worried. So almost like, let's get through the risk event and then let's move on to the next part of the story. And that's kind of where I'm at as far as clearing event.

• 50:52Joe Weisenthal?

  Can we talk about the hyperscalers themselves? I was thinking about this, like, if I think of a company like Alphabet and Meta, and these are the two examples. I feel like I could bucket them into three distinct businesses. And here's, tell me if this is crazy. There is a legacy business that prints money. Let's just say we're talking about Alphabet. There's a legacy business that prints money, and that is search. And it is still a huge moneymaker. There is a capital intensive business, but is also quite profitable in unit economics. And that is building clouds either for themselves or for others.

• 51:28Joe Weisenthal?

  And then there is maybe like a call option, which is, will Gemini itself become a really valuable AI model in itself, the way other models? Or is it just going to be sort of in the pack? I'm curious like how the street thinks of the hyperscalers right now, because it feels like there are a few different economics embedded within each one.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  I think, I think it's a great question. I think also for your example, you can say, are the TPU's gonna meaningfully?

• 51:56Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, and that could also be sort of a call option, like, could, especially like with Nvidia, it's like, maybe, yeah.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  That certainly prices the multiples you want to assign in the different business segments. I think the interesting thing was the hyperscalers didn't do very well because the traditional businesses struggle. And I think they struggled for reasons outside, like Amazon had some issues, Microsoft had some issues, and Google had some issues. Actually, Microsoft did quite well, to be clear, but Google had some issues with search, which makes perfect sense because search weakness. I'm using Claude more than I'm using Google, probably to the detriment of token usage, and I shouldn't be. But we're all learning how to kind of adjust to this new tech and that's probably going to be a little bit of a jitters for traditional businesses like search. So it does make sense, but I think the cloud business and the growth and the monetization of the cloud business is the cornerstone, getting back to kind of your question of everything, of the story.

• 52:40Joe Weisenthal?

  For investors, the number one question.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Compute pie has to keep growing and it's actually growing quite impressively still. And that's why we all get kind of lost in the narratives like token prices or, you know, financing or even like competition and nimbyism. But as long as compute's growing, they can probably power their way through this. And, and that's what we're

• 52:57Speaker 06

  You're hearing, and when I look to some of the experts on the street, like the Gavin Bakers and these guys who put out quite a lot, it's really about watching that metric. And so far, there really isn't any flinch. We're still in a decent part of the S curve there.

• 53:08Tracy Alloway?

  Okay, I feel compelled to ask this, even though I don't know if

• 53:11Joe Weisenthal?

  We've been talking about AI the whole time.

• 53:12Tracy Alloway?

  I know, like, it feels like this isn't really in the zeitgeist of the market anymore, but it is at the same time driving a lot of market moves. So I don't know how to square that, but oil, right?

• 53:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 53:21Tracy Alloway?

  So we've seen oil, some of the pressure come off recently. People are speculating that maybe we're going to see an end to the Iran conflict. How, how much of a factor is oil at the moment?

• 53:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's big. And I mean, it's decoupled from rates again, which was nice. I mean, yesterday was interesting. That's Monday. In fact, we equities were ripping, yields were sort of rising because all of a sudden the growth picture was getting better and that traditional kind of balance between rates and equity had kind of resumed, but oil had fallen massively.

• 53:47Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah.

• 53:47Speaker 06

  Usually oil would drag down sort of yields and treasuries, and we didn't get that. So people were again re-changing sort of the calibration correlations across asset. But as far as oil, like the backdrop's actually positive if we can sort of end this kind of overhang of geopolitical risk premium. Barrels are getting out. I think JP Morgan up their surplus for even this year to 1.5 million barrels. And the product market's actually loosening nicely. So crack spreads and all that have come off. And even in Europe, like the Dutch gas market has come off nicely, and that's helped European stocks. So the energy pulse, as we just saw in CPI today, had been materially starting to come into core, changing our Fed calculation. So anything now with oil falling down, and I don't know where the range is because there'll be a higher premium, and there's still a lot of inventory to be rebuilt, and there's still obviously a lot of things lurking with not only the Gulf, but Ukraine and Russia, which could change

• 54:32Speaker 06

  some of that. But the price will be higher, but it looks like now the skew is funny enough lower, although it'll be a bumpy path because again, now we're a little bit oversold. We just moved about $10, $15 in a short amount of order period. Our size are oversold. Option position, funny enough, yesterday picked up. People were buying calls again. You could see $100 Brent being kind of a point where people felt we'd get back to.

• 54:53Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, I hadn't realized how much cracks had come down.

• 54:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 54:55Joe Weisenthal?

  They were at 70.

• 54:56Tracy Alloway?

  It's pretty surprising, actually.

• 54:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, the price of the pump, as we all know, is lagging that, but it should follow it fully.

• 55:03Joe Weisenthal?

  I don't have to go to see the Republicans this time around.

• 55:06Speaker 06

  He promised oil would fall after the election.

• 55:08Tracy Alloway?

  You think they should have campaigned on lower crack spreads?

• 55:12Joe Weisenthal?

  Trust it. The crack spreads are coming down. We promise it'll trickle through to the pump too. Michael Ball.

• 55:19Speaker 06

  Thanks.

• 55:20Joe Weisenthal?

  Thanks for coming on Odd Lots. Got to do more.

• 55:21Tracy Alloway?

  Thanks so much, Michael.

• 55:35Tracy Alloway?

  Joe, I thought that was a really good overview of what's been going on. Like, to me, last week was sort of the mechanics of markets on full display.

• 55:43Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Tracy Alloway?

  Again, the reason we've been doing so many episodes on things like structured products, multi-strats, levered ETFs, is because you do have them, it seems, adding to volatility or like adding to the selling pressure when we start to get a down market, which I think is what we saw last week. And again, when it comes to multi-strats, I think this puts a pretty big question mark around a lot of the business model and the defining feature of multi-strats, which is the short, the focus on short-term returns.

• 56:11Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 56:11Tracy Alloway?

  And so again, when you have an environment where things are flipping basically on a daily basis, and they're trying to chase those trends, it feels like, or react to them, it again adds to the force of the selling or the buying.

• 56:25Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, completely agree. And yes, listeners, listen to our technical episodes because

• 56:31Tracy Alloway?

  Sorry, am I being too ham-fisted and promoting previous coverage?

• 56:34Joe Weisenthal?

  Not at all. I think that's right. And I think what like Nishant said about like, okay, why is it down 2.3 month bad, right? And it's, all right, no one likes to lose 2% of their money, period. Every hedge fund will have down months, like in down quarters. That's everyone has always had it. But if you think about like an institution, start from the level of the endowment or the pension or whatever, if you have a lot, you're inherently long risk assets. You have to be.

• 57:02Tracy Alloway?

  You're paying for the hedge. It's in the name.

• 57:04Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, you're inherently long risk assets. Most of your money isn't going to be things going up over time. So then when you have an allocation of the hedge and it doesn't serve as a hedge in a terrible month or in a really brutal month, you can see why a bunch of people like get their hair on fire and get fired and stuff like that. It's not the losing money per se. It's not even the losing money. Besides, it's the fact that it did not serve its purpose in that particular month from the perspective of the broader portfolio.

• 57:36Tracy Alloway?

  They paid for the hedge. They didn't get the hedge, right?

• 57:38Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 57:38Tracy Alloway?

  Like, it's that simple. But actually, that reminds me, I want to know what Citadel did in October.

• 57:44Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, I do too.

• 57:45Tracy Alloway?

  To eke out a positive return. So open invitation to Citadel if they want to come on the show and I guess, you know, lord it up over everyone else.

• 57:52Joe Weisenthal?

  Tell us every one of your, tell us all of the SKUs of all of your, tell us all of your Qsips and all your equity holdings.

• 57:59Tracy Alloway?

  That was October. It's November now.

• 58:00Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, just tell us.

• 58:01Tracy Alloway?

  Why not? Shall we leave it there?

• 58:03Joe Weisenthal?

  Let's leave it there.

• 58:04Tracy Alloway?

  This has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

• 58:09Joe Weisenthal?

  And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dashell Bennett at Dashbot, Cale Brooks at Cale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And of course, you can chat about all these topics 24/7 in our Discord, discord.gg/oddlots. And for more Odd Lots content, check out our daily newsletter, which you can find at Bloomberg.com/oddlots.

• 58:33Tracy Alloway?

  And if you enjoyed this conversation, if you like it when we do these market checkups, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And if you're watching on video, then please like or leave a comment, or better yet, subscribe.

• 58:45Joe Weisenthal?

  And remember, if you're a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there.

• 58:55Tracy Alloway?

  Thanks for joining.

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