NY Governor Kathy Hochul on Her One Year Data Center Moratorium

On July 14, New York Governor Kathy Hochul announced a one-year moratorium on new large data center projects in the state. It's the nation's first such pause at a time when anti-data center politics is on the rise around the country. But Hochul insists that she's not anti-AI, and that she's an avid user of the technology, as well as a believer that it can be a force for economic growth. On this episode, we talk to Hochul about the logic of the pause, and what she hopes it will achieve. We also discuss energy and housing stress in the state, and what it would take for New York to welcome in driverless cars. Read more: Meta’s Louisiana Data Center to Surpass $250 Billion Price Tag https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-13/meta-s-louisiana-data-center-to-surpass-250-billion-price-tag?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article Only Bloomberg - Business News, Stock Markets, Finance, Breaking & World News http://bloomberg.com/ subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Joe Weisenthal?

  There are some market stories where you want every detail. Tracy and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis, but sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and need to know what's moving markets and why. That's the Barclays Brief Podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays Markets and research get you up to speed on what matters and what to watch next. About the time it takes to grab a coffee. So, search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So, all the source materials, briefs and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful, can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro Plans.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  If you listen to financial news, you know a lot of time is spent thinking about what's next. The next opportunity, the next investment, the next move. But sometimes what matters most is being ready for what you never saw coming. For more than 75 years, Cincinnati Insurance has worked with independent agents to help protect businesses, homes, valuables, and more. Because planning for the future isn't only about knowing what's next, it's about making sure you're ready for what you can't predict. Let Cincinnati Insurance make your bad day better. Find an independent agent at C I N F I N dot com.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news.

• 2:01Joe Weisenthal?

  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

• 2:06Tracy Alloway?

  And I'm Tracy Alloway.

• 2:08Joe Weisenthal?

  So Tracy, big news in New York State today. We know there's been a lot of AI politics, a lot of data center backlash. I wasn't really expecting it, but New York State becoming the first state to institute a formal data center moratorium, at least for one year.

• 2:25Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah, so this is really interesting. Governor Kathy Hochul just announced this and it comes hot on the heels of, there was another attempt in Maine to do something similar, but that ultimately got vetoed by the governor there. So it's really interesting that New York is, I guess, like stepping up and maybe trying to create a template for other states to do this.

• 2:45Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, and it's interesting because like, the one question is, does this become a ban, right? Because we know there are a lot of people that would just like to see, like, anti-data center politics is very popular. On the other hand, you know, it's interesting. I saw a story, I saw a headline recently, you know, in some states, there are still tax breaks, like they're trying to invite data center companies in.

• 3:07Tracy Alloway?

  New York still has tax breaks too.

• 3:08Joe Weisenthal?

  And so, yeah, and it's so it's interesting because we see all these stories about like, oh, there's a compute scarcity, et cetera. And yet evidently, there's still this competition. But basically, data center politics are like really in flux.

• 3:22Tracy Alloway?

  Absolutely. Also, one of the rare areas of bipartisan agreement nowadays, it seems.

• 3:27Joe Weisenthal?

  If you're in the AI industry, you have to be kind of concerned that like, there doesn't seem like they have any friends.

• 3:34Tracy Alloway?

  Everyone hates you.

• 3:35Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, I mean, the ratings are negative. But anyway, of course, data center politics gets into so many other things. You know, the anxiety about job loss.

• 3:45Tracy Alloway?

  Energy policy.

• 3:45Joe Weisenthal?

  Energy policy, water policy, et cetera. And it's sort of this litmus test, I guess, because like, no one really knows. Like, no one knows whether AI is going to be good or not, right? Like, will this be a great thing for the world, or will this disrupt the world in ways that we can't possibly fathom and, you know?

• 4:06Tracy Alloway?

  But also, if you agree that AI is going to be important in some way in the future, then it seems reasonable to want to design like some sort of framework for how data centers should actually get built out. I imagine different states, different cities, different municipalities will have different ideas for exactly how to do that. But it's interesting to see people start to grapple with those requirements. So, you know, do you have to have a closed-loop system for water? Does the company have?

• 4:35Joe Weisenthal?

  Bring your own power.

• 4:36Tracy Alloway?

  Right, exactly. Like, what are these requirements? What's the optimal data center going to look like in the future?

• 4:42Joe Weisenthal?

  Totally. Well, there are a lot of big questions that this touches on, big, like just sort of in the macro sense, like, what are we building? What is the government's attitude towards building things, period? And I'm very excited to say, we literally have the perfect guest. Governor Hochul, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots.

• 5:01Speaker 05

  Delighted to join both of you.

• 5:02Joe Weisenthal?

  All right, so the big news came out this morning, a one-year moratorium on a big new data centers in New York State. Why now? What is, what was the catalyst for this particular decision today?

• 5:15Speaker 05

  Well, there's been a really, what I call flood the zone. There's been a lot of companies that may have been contemplating putting in plans for data centers, massive data centers around the country, but all of a sudden it seemed like there's been a surge. And I have to respond to that. My main challenge is in the state of New York, making sure we keep the lights on and making sure that people can afford to keep the lights on. And so, the challenges that I have to deal with in this environment where everything we want to do for clean energy, renewable energy, or my all the above approach are under attack from Washington. So, I have to make sure I'm managing our resources. So when you have a huge company that wants to come in, even on the somewhat smaller side, 50 megawatts of power required.

• 5:58Speaker 05

  That's 50,000 homes that all of a sudden are competing with that, that consumption of energy. So, on that front, it was important to me, but also, I've been studying this around the country. A lot of communities are getting, deriving substantial benefits from these companies, and they're willing to pay for it.

• 6:14Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  But I realized, I used to represent a very rural area of upstate New York in Congress. These communities do not have the sophistication. They don't have the planning staff, the staff that would know to say, you know, we wanted you to give, you know, $1 million per megawatt, we want you to make sure that you're investing in the grid, all these other things they could be doing, but they're not being asked. And I think the companies are willing to do that. So I want to make sure that we take the time to have a community investment framework to give to localities. But also, you have to be able to power yourselves. You want to come in. I said this in my State of the State back in January, I launched the Public Service Commission to start this process. They'll be done within this year of the moratorium, so we can have certainty for businesses.

• 6:57Speaker 05

  But you come, you're to bring your own power source, or you have to pay a premium to use our grid. And those are the basic foundations of what we're doing with this moratorium. It is not a ban. It is simply saying, step back, take a breath, and get it right. Businesses want that knowledge of what the rules of the road are. We've actually had some interesting tweets from the builders of these facilities who are now saying, hey, we, just tell us the rules, tell us the regulations, we're okay with that. And that's exactly what we're doing. But also, responds to a lot of frustration from these communities, from people who don't think that they're paying their fair share, or that they're just coming in and just start forcing themselves in. And that's really annoying to people. It's just, they've had enough. Americans have had enough.

• 7:42Tracy Alloway?

  So, this is the US's first statewide moratorium on data centers, which means inevitably, this is going to be seen as a test case or an experiment. When you think about this, what exactly is it you're trying to, I guess, prove or disprove or achieve? Like, what are you looking for here? What should the outcome of the moratorium actually be?

• 8:03Speaker 05

  Very specific goals. My Public Service Commission will take this year to devise a plan where we figure out how to make sure that they bring their own power, or that they're substantially contributing to the grid. Secondly, I want them to contribute. This takes time for a government to get this right. Put a, I'm establishing a larger grid resiliency fund. I want them to make major contributions, so I can invest in the energy grid, the transmission lines and everything else that has been ignored for so long. That's one of the reasons why our energy infrastructure is crippled, the investments were not made. So you're going to contribute to locality, you're going to contribute to bring your own power, and also this larger dynamic.

• 8:44Speaker 05

  So, that's what we're looking for. Those are very specific. I have agencies all working on them now, about seven or eight agencies dedicated to this. I'll put the person power behind this, and we will be a template for doing it right.

• 8:57Joe Weisenthal?

  Right. We know in some instances, I think I've seen headlines, like in Louisiana, for example, the big meta campus, not campus, data center. It's like, there's going to be, you know, payments to teachers in the area. The idea, I suppose, is, okay, any place that's open for a data center business, let's make sure that we get these, you know, the same, the same agreements that are being put in place elsewhere to benefit the community. How should we, like, moratoria can become bans, right? Something is like, we're going to put this in place for one year, and then it's two years, we're still working out the rules of the road, then it's five years, and then you never have them. What sort of like, are you actively trying to avoid this becoming a ban?

• 9:39Speaker 05

  I'm not expecting the need for a ban. I want them to work with us. No, this. I understand how important AI is.

• 9:47Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 9:47Speaker 05

  We are in a revolution. This is the winds of change are coming in at hurricane force. And it's disruptive, but it also be very positive. And I'll tell you, my commitment to AI goes back years. When I launched the first in the nation, development of a supercomputer, the largest outside any private company is being built in New York for public good. What does that mean? All of our universities can tap into power, computing power that is unavailable to them otherwise. We are innovating new therapies in cancer, working on it right now up in Buffalo. We are also trying to solve some of other society's other problems and even weather forecasting. I mean, you would not believe the disasters I have to deal with as governor, you know,

• 10:29Speaker 05

  heat waves, blizzards, floods, storms. And so there's all kinds of positive ways we can use AI. And I'll tell you what I just launched, and I'm very excited about this. I'm using AI to analyze every single rule, regulation, policy, see whether it's antiquated, outdated, too many fees. We just finished this, it would have tried taken five years at the staff level. Did it in a couple of months. And I have over 4,000 recommendations from the public who want us to look into things. Plus I have all my agencies now using this list that they were given. Okay, get rid of these regulations. So I understand.

• 11:06Tracy Alloway?

  Do you find like wacky, old school stuff about like horses allowed on the streets and things?

• 11:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, all kind, like everything has to be sent, you know, in many rules under by telegram. Or.

• 11:17Joe Weisenthal?

  Not telegram.

• 11:18Speaker 05

  No, no, seriously, it's on the books.

• 11:21Tracy Alloway?

  A lot of people have been in violation.

• 11:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. And, you know, even I think those, you know, pregnant women have to have a special permit to be able to work after midnight. No, there's, you know, the fees that you have to pay $25 to bring your dog hunting in the state. Like inane things, we literally.

• 11:38Joe Weisenthal?

  And these were things that you like basically put the New York City, the New York State legal code base into AI and said, find the crazy stuff?

• 11:45Speaker 05

  Dump it in. And I, and my team was like, you sure? And I said, no, we're going to do this because I want to rethink government. I want a government that's not on your back, but on your side. And using AI has been powerful to do that. And I think every level of government should use this. So this is going to go on for a little while, but I'm going to make dramatic changes using the power of AI. So my point is we are open to this innovation. It's what defines New York, which why we're so spectacular. Why so many tech companies are leasing space at record levels coming to New York? Why recent college grads, this is their number one destination. So I want to capitalize on that. When I talk about those college grads, I also have to mention something else.

• 12:27Speaker 05

  AI and the uncertainty around this is causing enormous anxiety because young people don't know where they fit in the future with AI. Will they lose their job? Will they be displaced? Will the skills that they thought were so important are now irrelevant? So last week I had launched this a few months ago. We had our first meeting with really substantial business leaders, leaders in tech, people from academia, labor, gathered them together along with my team. And I said, we are now called the Future Works Commission. We are studying the positive benefits of AI, what we need to do to make sure that our students are AI competent so they can take the jobs, but also how we deal with the disruptive forces.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  The forces that drove, I'm from Buffalo, drove everybody I knew out of a job when Bethlehem Steel left and, you know, automation replaced jobs in our factories. So I saw that happen as a young girl and as a child. I also want to make sure that we're ready for it this time. So I'm trying to deal with that anxiety that people are feeling, trying to deal with our energy demand, making sure that decisions are responsible. And we'll get through this, but we, we embrace AI in this state.

• 13:54Tracy Alloway?

  There are some market stories where you want every detail. Joe and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis, but sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and just want to know what's moving markets fast. That's the Barclays Brief Podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays Markets and Research get you up to speed on what's happening and what to watch next. Concise, focused and brief. Search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 15:01Speaker 06

  The world of business is constantly evolving. Every day, new challenges, new opportunities, new ways of working. Comcast Business keeps you totally in step with secure AI back networking built to power the way modern business gets things done today in more than 100 countries around the world. That's some serious muscle. And get this, Comcast Business powers over 90% of the Fortune 500 and millions of small businesses. Behind it all, network engineers, cybersecurity specialists, support teams, thousands of experts answering your call at 2:00 AM like it's 2:00 PM. Always on, always ready. That's a lot of coffee.

• 15:43Speaker 06

  One partner powering how business gets done for companies of every size all around the globe. When you add it all up, no one does business like Comcast Business.

• 15:55Tracy Alloway?

  So given that you recognize the importance of AI and you do want data centers in the state in the right way, but that's inevitably going to require, you know, additional rules. Maybe it'll make the data centers more expensive. And ultimately, New York is competing against other states when it comes to attracting these projects. How do you actually, you know, how do you encourage data centers to come in with additional restrictions once this moratorium is over?

• 16:26Speaker 05

  That'll be up to them. It's also up to localities. I mean, they should not go anywhere they're not welcome. I spent 14 years in local government and I believe that the localities should be the deciders whether they want this. But let me tell you the larger picture. Whether they come here or not is up to them. What I'm spending my energy on is focusing on the large mass of producers of the elements for this to support AI. What am I talking about? Semiconductors. Just last week, less than a week ago, I was with the CEO of Micron, who I was, one of my proudest accomplishments was landing Micron to come to New York, not another state where they're looking seriously. $100 billion of investment, largest private sector investment in American history.

• 17:12Speaker 05

  They will be creating 10,000 direct and 40,000 indirect jobs. Now, I will say, I will work with you to get the power you need. And I've structured arrangements with, with the New York Power Authority. And they're also helping me with my effort to bring more nuclear to New York. We're waiting for the Trump administration to hopefully greenlight us on my massive expansion of nuclear that I want to do. I want to build more nuclear in New York than the entire country has in 30 years. That's how ambitious I am about powering our future of innovation. But if I have to choose between powering a largely vacant data center with the same amount of power I can have on Micron with 1,000 jobs, I can tell you right now where I'm going. So they can come under the conditions we lay out,

• 17:56Speaker 05

  but I'm also going to be investing a lot of my energy on the good paying jobs that'll be there for the long term.

• 18:02Joe Weisenthal?

  When we talk about AI labor market disruption, like everyone's anxious about this right now all across the economy. And we're like waiting, right? Like, we don't really know what's going to happen to work. However, there's one area with AI specifically where we know that there's, where we can already see the rubber hitting the road quite literally. And that is in driverless cars, which is AI. And we know that like Waymo had a trial here in New York State. And then New York put a pause on it. And of course there's going to be human drivers interrupted. Can you tell us about why Waymo couldn't move forward? And what that says about your office's framework for managing this disruption?

• 18:47Speaker 05

  I will say I'm very interested in Waymo. I, I've been in the vehicles.

• 18:52Joe Weisenthal?

  They're amazing, right?

• 18:53Tracy Alloway?

  They're fun.

• 18:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're fun. But this is where I want to get ahead of this. Before we have these disruptive effects, what is the alternative for the people who now are the ones we're counting on to drive us in person? You have to have a plan B. This is what we did not have with the industrial revolution and all these other, the automation revolution. That's why so many people were so discouraged when they lost their jobs, whether it's overseas or as I said, automation. Because government didn't step in and work with the industry and prepare people for this. That's what I'm trying to do. Are the people that are currently driving vehicles, are they able to, you know, get some basic AI competency program that we put forward? And they might get a job that pays even more. Let, let's make there be a positive impact to this. So that's the strategy I'm using.

• 19:38Speaker 05

  What is, what is the alternative for people? How do we manage this? How can we get this to all work out? And so I just want to be thoughtful about it. Again, coming from the world I come from, where my hometown was basically a ghost town when all the businesses left, you know, going out of business, last one here, turn out the lights. That's the world I grew up in. And I'm so hardwired to protect the people of this state and these young people. And I gathered 10 of them in my office the other day. I invited people who had lost their jobs. Literally the boss had said, you're losing your job because of AI. Now, some of them had been studying computer science, coding. They did everything we told them to do their entire lives. Like go into, I can't tell you about a young life, say, go into STEM, you'll have a job forever.

• 20:19Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  And those people, and especially women, are in the jobs that are most vulnerable. I cannot have this disruption without saying we did everything we could to mitigate it.

• 20:28Joe Weisenthal?

  But just going back to the Waymo thing, for example, because I do think it's instructive about what's going to come for a lot of different industries. Like, the number of people who would theoretically be a passenger in any car is far larger than the number of people who drive cars professionally. And you mentioned the Industrial Revolution, etc. and extraordinarily wrenching, but most people would say, we came out on the other side as a richer, more advanced society. And so like, I'm curious, like, you know, how do you balance the interests of all the people who aren't drivers that would like a clean ride, that would like a safe ride, that would like a modern ride, a ride that potentially could reduce congestion, which I know is a thing you care about. And historically,

• 21:13Joe Weisenthal?

  it's like, there are costs, but then you come out on the other side better. How do we get over that?

• 21:18Speaker 05

  You're absolutely right. But you're looking at the societal costs as being greater at the end. I'm looking at the collateral damage of the people before it gets there. I'm the first governor to say, I grew up in a world where no one cared about the people and the displacement and why a lot of people had to leave the state because their jobs were gone, lost a foreign comp, and lost automation. I'm just trying to fight to not let that happen. I have to help them reimagine life without the current job they have, whether it's the people that are driving vehicles, or whether it's the young students who did everything we asked them to do. They got a good degree, they went to college, they're trying to build a life, and now they're told, well, we don't need any more paralegals anymore.

• 22:00Speaker 05

  We don't need people to do back office. We don't need administrative jobs. You're gone. I can't let that happen without saying, but here's how we can get you a better future. Here's how I can put you on a pass. So then we can try to dial back some of this anxiety and fear of AI. Because I can't have companies be successful, but leave, they can be successful, but leave everybody else behind. That's not how we do things in New York. We lift everybody up.

• 22:26Tracy Alloway?

  Should tech companies have to contribute directly to, I guess, managing the labor market disruption? So for instance, paying higher taxes to fund reskilling programs or things like that?

• 22:37Speaker 05

  They should be involved. You know, I have a hostility toward raising taxes in New York. I've shown that I'm going to stand firm because I happen to embrace people that are successful in businesses here in New York, because they're the ones who are creating the jobs, the other ones who are already driving the tax revenues that allow us to have universal childcare and invest more in housing and to deal with this energy challenge we're facing. So, so I want to make sure that we're smart on that front. So, you know, there's a lot of ways to look at it. And I have to make sure that, again, New York has always looked at as a leader. I'm very cognizant of the fact that what I do will have a ripple effect. But that's why everything we do is so thoughtful. I did not wake up

• 23:21Speaker 05

  one day and say, we should do this. I talked to industry experts, can you manage this? Are you going to be able to get through this? And what they're telling me is, just tell us the rules. So, technology companies have a role to play. And if they want to be supportive of the entire workforce, help us retrain people. Let me tell you, I mentioned Micron before. Micron, when I was trying to recruit them, said they needed 9,000 engineers and tens of thousands of people in the construction trades. And I said, I'll get that done for you. I promise. So, what I've, working with Micron and our teachers, our teachers' unions, we've now changed the curriculum in the nine counties surrounding Micron to teach them basic skills that they would use if they were hired by Micron. Now, this is like a

• 24:05Speaker 05

  30-year proposition. You know, kids in kindergarten may not take a job there till they're 25 or 30. This is what industry can do to make us more competitive internationally. But I don't have to tax them to do it. You should be part of a consortium with me. And I also said this this morning. The companies that innovated this revolution, which is changing how we communicate, how we work, how we think, how we live, AI revolution, have to have the capacity to be able to help us figure out the reasons why we have to have this moratorium. Use your expertise, your talent, AI, use AI to help us figure out how to deal with less energy consumption, less water consumption, the less noise disruption.

• 24:50Speaker 05

  Why can't you solve for that? And the whole dynamic will change around this. So I'm challenging them to do that.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you

• 25:37Speaker 01

  have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro Plans.

• 25:53Speaker 06

  The world of business is constantly evolving. Every day, new challenges, new opportunities, new ways of working. Comcast Business keeps you totally in step with secure AI-backed networking built to power the way modern business gets things done today in more than 100 countries around the world. That's some serious muscle. And get this, Comcast Business powers over 90% of the Fortune 500 and millions of small businesses. Behind it all, network engineers, cybersecurity specialists, support teams, thousands of experts answering your call at 2:00 AM like it's 2:00 PM. Always on, always ready. That's

• 26:34Speaker 06

  a lot of coffee. One partner powering how business gets done for companies of every size, all around the globe. When you add it all up, no one does business like Comcast Business.

• 26:46Speaker 07

  This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream, to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about, keeping up with cyber threats. That's where Mastercard can help. With access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your business. Building your dream business, priceless. For cybersecurity in a changing world, there's Mastercard. Learn more at mastercard.com/smallbusiness.

• 27:17Joe Weisenthal?

  We recently had a pretty awful heat wave in New York. And one of the sort of, I think, depressing things about, you know, New York and the modern era is that when the temperature spiked, we actually had to, like, turn on some of this sort of, like, spare, like fossil fuel, like oil-generated plants, et cetera. I know you talked about, like, this could be one area in which you actually do have alignment with the administration in DC. Why isn't restarting Indian Point, which the owner of that facility says it's still technically doable, part of the nuclear roadmap?

• 27:52Speaker 05

  It has been decommissioned.

• 27:54Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, they say it's, they say it's technically still.

• 27:57Speaker 05

  Okay, because they've already been removing all the radioactive materials, and I'm like, are they bringing them back? I would say this. This happened before my time. One of the biggest mistakes in the state's history was shutting down Indian Point, which powered 20% to 25% of New York City's power without a Plan B. If you're truly concerned that there's been degradation of the facilities, and there's safety issues, or whatever the reasons, we're back before my time. If that's real, just wait until you have an alternative. And it was, so, yes.

• 28:28Joe Weisenthal?

  It's obvious now that we say it now, but yeah.

• 28:31Speaker 05

  Well, this is so frustrating for me. Because what I have done, though, in the meantime, as soon as I became governor, within weeks, I authorized the building of a transmission line, hydroelectric power from Quebec, the Chippy Project, the longest underwater transmission in the country. And I knew that if I could bring in an alternative source, we could replace Indian Point somewhat. But guess what? While I'm doing this, we have pandemic, supply chain disruption, tariffs, war with Canada, which supplies a lot of our minerals and materials. And then I have a war on offshore wind, which I'm fighting to keep a facility that'll power half a million homes in Brooklyn. We should be ready to launch with that in

• 29:13Speaker 05

  the fall. Offshore wind is a great alternative for us. So I'm trying to find all these. I also authorized a pipeline, a natural gas pipeline, to go through, from Pennsylvania to Long Island. So I really am all the above, all the above. And so, I don't think there's an appetite for the communities involved to do Indian Point again. But I have eight communities upstate, they're begging for it. I have locations, I have existing facilities, I have four nuclear reactors that have been working successfully since 1960s. The communities love them, they're good paying jobs. That's where I want to be able to do this. And so, I have a plan. I just need the Department of Energy to authorize approval of a, of

• 29:55Speaker 05

  a plan that they would help us get a long-term low-interest loan to fund this. And I'm all on board. I've talked to the president about this. I've talked to the Secretary of Energy about this. The Energy Dominance, whatever they call it, Commission, just sat in my office the other day. But I want this done. Because it's also, I'd said this to the president in one of my first meetings. Nuclear often supposedly takes 10 years for approvals. Seven of those years are at the federal level. Said, you work on cutting yours, don't compromise safety, and I'll work on streamlining mine. We can get this done in a couple of years. Plus, where's the marketplace? Where's the commercialization of the small modular reactor?

• 30:34Tracy Alloway?

  I was about to ask, you're looking at those as well, right?

• 30:36Speaker 05

  We are, we're going, we're going big. I'm building enormous facilities, high capacity. I also believe when I'm talking about data centers or the next micro, show up with your own small modular reactor capability, and I'll find the space for you. We have a lot of water upstate, a lot of fresh water. We have a lot of land, but it has to be the highest and best use of those properties, not just using hundreds of acres for a couple of jobs. I think we can do better than that. I know we can, and I'm interested in driving that to happen.

• 31:05Tracy Alloway?

  Since you brought up Trump and the administration, I understand you're, you're probably more aligned on something like nuclear or maybe less aligned on something like wind. What are your conversations actually like with Trump at the moment? And have you had to, I guess, figure out the trade off between like the fights that you're willing to fight with the administration and the things that maybe, you know, you'll leave alone?

• 31:29Speaker 05

  I'm very good at managing relationships, whether it's with, you know, new mayors, presidents, that's my job. My job as the governor of New York is to make it all work out. And I think being even the first mom governor, first woman governor, I have unique experiences that allow me to deal with sort of warring factions all the time. And so my job is to dial down the temperature and not create drama, just get results. And that's been my focus for five years. So when I have conversations, I often strive for common ground. Let's get Penn Station done together, Mr. President. We can do this. I know you need New York State. New York State does have veto power. Okay, but I want this done too, so I think we can get there.

• 32:12Speaker 05

  But I also want nuclear, and you have the power to say yes or no to nuclear. So let's talk about all these opportunities. So it's more aligned with it. Now, I will say, I have called up and said, one time I called up and said, I'm heading to the Gateway Tunnel area. You just suspended this work for months. I'll be seeing 1,000 unemployed individuals who thought they had long term jobs, creating 6,000 to 10,000 jobs. What would you like me to tell them when I arrive tomorrow? Because they're real unhappy. They supported you and they're unemployed.

• 32:47Speaker 05

  Two days later, the approvals were back in place and they're back to work. And so just having conversation, helping point out the impacts of decisions, you know, sometimes can be helpful. But as I know, I'll always stand up and defend our values. I mean, you know, what I think what is happening with ICE is abhorrent. I have called that out. What I think is happening with all the healthcare costs that are, you know, destabilizing healthcare, even in the rural Republican areas of New York, like Elise Stefanics District, it's not a good political strategy. I once said, I said, this is not good politics for you. You're going to lose in Republican areas because of these tariffs and inflation and, and all these costs of living going up. So, so they're interesting conversations. I think it's always good to have the door open, line of communication,

• 33:32Speaker 05

  but always will stand up for New York values.

• 33:34Joe Weisenthal?

  JP Morgan expanding in Texas lately, Citadel expanding in Florida. Do you have like a main theory of why we see this finance expansion out of New York? And would you say one of your goals would be to grow New York's market share in terms of the finance industry or the share of jobs that we have in this space?

• 33:53Speaker 05

  Of course it is.

• 33:54Joe Weisenthal?

  And what's the, why, why is it, why do we see this expansion elsewhere?

• 33:58Speaker 05

  They often, the CEOs often call me and they'll say, you know, I just want you to know, Governor, this is not a new headquarters. We're still here, we're actually, then they say, we're expanding here. I just took on, I'm leasing more. I cannot get over the number of leases for commercial space that have been let in the last three, four months. It is extraordinary. No one could have foreseen this. People, remember just a few years ago, after the pandemic, during the pandemic, I first became, I've become governor during the middle of the pandemic. People said, real estate in New York City is dead. Like, you know, turn out the lights. It is dead. It is on fire. So it's whether it's tech businesses, financial services, just did a groundbreaking for American Express's brand new headquarters, finishing off the World Trade Center site. That is a statement of confidence.

• 34:43Speaker 05

  I spoke with the CEO yesterday and thanked him for that. I said, I appreciate your, he says, we're not going anywhere. There's only one New York. That is what I'm hearing from businesses. When you want to expand in another location where your customers are, that's what I'm hearing. We want to go closer to customers. I get it. But this is home. This is, this is our identity, and I will protect that identity. Because to me, after we lost so much industry and the manufacturing and the ports and all the other drivers of commerce in New York, we had to reinvent ourselves. I spoke about this this morning at the Domino Sugar facility, where I announced the moratorium. But we always reinvent ourselves for the better. And that's what we did with financial services. We'll always be the epicenter of financial services,

• 35:29Speaker 05

  and they'll know that they have someone in me who's going to make sure that you understand the regulations, you know, the rules of the road, and that's all these businesses ask for.

• 35:37Tracy Alloway?

  I'm going to do a complete 180 from financial services to democratic socialists. But, you know, we had Zorin Mumdani on this podcast before, and since then, it seems like the democratic socialists have racked up a number of wins. What do you think is going on here? Like, what is the appeal of that particular message? And how much of it do you yourself share?

• 36:00Speaker 05

  It is extreme frustration with the cost of everything going up, the knowledge that no matter how hard you work, you play by the rules, you'll never be able to have what your parents and grandparents had, which is the possibility of owning your own home. To hear the statistic a few months ago that the average age of a first time home buyer, if you're lucky enough to have a home at all, went from 30 to 40 in just a few years. Look how long that milestone that everybody else counted on before these, this generation, how long it's going to take. To me, that hurts people. And I'm a mother of young people, and I see the struggles they have, whether it's with childcare, something I used to work for as an attorney for Senator Moynihan.

• 36:44Speaker 05

  I had to give up that job because there was no childcare a generation ago. Those babies are now struggling to find childcare themselves. So is it just a frustration, anger toward Washington because they were promised, or inflation was going down day one? No more forever wars? You know, all these promises that were broken, and ICE is only, ICE enforcement only for the baddest of the bad, the worst of the worst. I think they're just feeling so disaffected that they're angry at everything right now. And who can blame them? And again, we talked about AI. I'm doing all this and I'm going to lose my job to AI. So we just have to let them know. We hear them, number one. Your message has been delivered. We, we get it. We also share the concerns. And note, there's people like myself out there saying,

• 37:29Speaker 05

  I'm going to do a billion dollar energy rebate to help pay utility bills. I'm changing all these red, all the red tape that is holding back the building of housing. Because the reason you cannot afford your rent or own a home is because we didn't have the ambition to build more housing. We got hung up with laws like seeker laws, a 1975 environmental law, which had its place at the time. At a time when I lived near Lake Erie, the pollution was rampant and people weren't protecting the environment and industries were irresponsible. Smoke stacks everywhere. Sky was orange. I thought the sky was supposed to be orange when I was a kid. So I come out of that world. But fast forward to the world where they just feel like no one's paying attention to them.

• 38:14Speaker 05

  And when we start ignoring these cries for help, you get a change. You get people just demanding change. So why, well, here's what I want to do. Change the policies, build more housing. The seeker law outlived its usefulness. I just got that through the legislature and people said they, it was called dead on arrival, even the last couple of days of session, until the budget was done. And I said, I'm not leaving town until I get this. I'm very aggressive when I have my priorities to drive down costs in New York, whether it's auto insurance. I drew, I took on the trial lawyers, one on that front. So the larger answer to your question is, I'm focused on all these areas to drive down the cost of living, housing being probably the top of the list. But also, let's harness that energy.

• 38:59Speaker 05

  In my whole life, we've been asking young people to show up and vote in higher numbers. And I was a little kid during the Vietnam War when people said, why did it be 21 to be able to vote? These young people are dying and shedding blood on battlefields far, far away, and they can't even vote for the leaders who sent them there. So when it changed to 18, we thought there'd be a revolution at the time of young people just so engaged. And it took until now. And I think it's just an enormous pressure with Washington, their lives feeling frustrated and being denied the American dream. And leaders like myself are doing everything we can to change that dynamic. We have to.

• 39:33Joe Weisenthal?

  I'd love to have you back sometime just to talk three hours about housing because it does feel like the ur issue that could explain expansion into other cities by these big companies, et cetera. There's a million angles on housing. One specific thing, think about young people, is one specific thing in the housing is from everything I understand, property taxes on a lot of multifamily buildings end up being higher implicitly than single-family owner occupied homes. And so it's like, if you really want to build housing at scale and you need to fund government, you need to have property taxes, we are sort of like penalizing the lever that could expand

• 40:17Joe Weisenthal?

  sort of units the most. Should we revisit the core property tax system in New York so that we don't put such a favorable rate on the sort of traditional single-family occupancy?

• 40:32Speaker 05

  I think it's more indicative of what's going on here in New York City. Statewide property taxes have been too high, but there's not a disparity in that treatment that you're describing. So that is something that the city council would have to deal with specifically. But the larger question is, I just go back to supply. I think that we just, you know, you look across New Jersey, you can see the houses they built on their waterfront, and we did not. And the NIMBYism, not just from communities out on Long Island or in Westchester, some of them, it is right here in the city. And the opposition, I heard from so many city council members who you'd consider very left, very progressive, who was like, no, we don't want that. We don't want to have office conversions. I mean, this was a big deal.

• 41:17Speaker 05

  I wanted to be able to convert empty office space into housing, especially during the pandemic when we had a lot of empty office space. Even raising the height requirements for buildings and doing more expansive thinking. I ran into so many roadblocks. I had a project that was going to be homeownership for 900 people, low-income individuals, be able to own their own home in one part of this great city. And the legislators said, no, we don't want people like that coming in, in this progressive city. So that's what I'm up against, and I'm still trying to break it all down. I'm just trying to fight back because the collateral damages, the people who are just want to be here so desperately, the young people came here with that dream of you can make it in New York.

• 42:01Joe Weisenthal?

  The best city in the world.

• 42:02Speaker 05

  It still is, always will be, always, full stop. But they get tired of living with five other people in a small apartment. At some point, they want to expand out. They want to have their own family. And that is exactly what we have to do. I'm listening to those people. I'm breaking down barriers. I'd love to come back because I have a huge platform on housing, what I've done already, what I have to do next. And it's a huge task. That and energy keep me up at night, but I'm going to deal with both, dealing with both now.

• 42:31Joe Weisenthal?

  All right. Governor Hochul, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots. We'll immediately start coordinating with your people about our

• 42:37Tracy Alloway?

  A deep dive on housing.

• 42:38Joe Weisenthal?

  Our three-hour housing.

• 42:39Speaker 05

  And I would actually enjoy that.

• 42:40Joe Weisenthal?

  That's great. I hope you enjoyed this too. We would definitely enjoy that. Thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots.

• 42:45Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me.

• 43:01Joe Weisenthal?

  Well, that was a lot of fun talking to the governor.

• 43:03Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah.

• 43:03Joe Weisenthal?

  I'm looking forward to our three-hour

• 43:05Tracy Alloway?

  The three-hour housing policy. Yeah, I think we should do it, absolutely. No, that was fascinating. Look, like, whatever you think about the specific move, it seems like it could be the first of many, right?

• 43:17Joe Weisenthal?

  Totally. Well, yeah, it definitely seems like it could be the first of many. I think there are two ways to look at it. I mean, I think you could say, that's New York State saying no to something again, right? New York, you know, the perception, including many people in New York, but I think is like, oh, it's a bad place to, it's a bad place to build, it's a bad place to start a business, you want to go to the Sun Belt, et cetera. So there's the one view, it's like, this is just another in a long line of things where like, New York is not, you know, embracing the future, embracing economic activity or embracing business. The other possibility is that data centers could actually be very good. They could incentivize, you know, companies to add to the grid.

• 44:01Joe Weisenthal?

  We've had episodes, in theory, they can reduce ratepayer costs because this is yet another company to bring down the cost of that capital expenditure, gets distributed, et cetera. So the question is like, could in one year, something that on the surface, like, oh, this could become a ban if it just is how government works? Or in this year, could they find a model where data centers are clearly something that, if you get the economics right, a community wants to embrace?

• 44:33Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what the one-year moratorium is trying to figure out, right? The other thing I thought was really interesting, this is slightly off topic, but just the using AI to dig through for old, old defunct laws, I guess, that no one actually pays attention to anymore, is kind of crazy.

• 44:51Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, just drop the entire code base in and say, find the dumb stuff. Like, that is actually, and then you're like, of course, have the human confirm it. But that actually strikes me as one of those things that AI really is good at. Because prior to that, it's like, you, I mean, I didn't go, I don't, I doubt the prompt was literally find the dumb stuff. But like, that is actually what AI is good at, is like,

• 45:11Tracy Alloway?

  It could have been.

• 45:11Joe Weisenthal?

  Find the dumb stuff. And then it's like, okay, here's 5,000 things. And then you review those rather than reviewing, you know, millions and millions of pages. I do think the Waymo thing is very instructive as a thing to watch. Because here is an, Waymo is AI, right?

• 45:32Tracy Alloway?

  Yep.

• 45:32Joe Weisenthal?

  And right now, the impulse is, I get why politicians have the impulse, a lot of people have the impulse, it's like, we have to, you know, make sure that the displaced have an opportunity to go. But on the other hand, most people aren't drivers. I think a lot of people like the, I think there's, the evidence seems pretty strong that driverless cars are in fact very safe. We know that road safety and congestion are also very big deals. We didn't even get into

• 46:02Tracy Alloway?

  The congestion charge.

• 46:02Joe Weisenthal?

  The congestion tax. But these are like big things. So it's like, you know, at what point, how does the government make unpopular decisions that it's like, okay, there are clear benefits here, but they are going to fall disproportionately on one small group? This is the, comes up over and over again.

• 46:20Tracy Alloway?

  This is politics.

• 46:21Joe Weisenthal?

  This is the Jones Act phenomenon, which is like, how many people have Jones Act jobs? And how many people like, and it's immovable. So I do think like, how this resolves, if ever, is kind of like an instructive early warning about like, how AI politics will actually go down.

• 46:39Tracy Alloway?

  All right, shall we leave it there?

• 46:40Joe Weisenthal?

  Let's leave it there.

• 46:41Tracy Alloway?

  This has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

• 46:47Joe Weisenthal?

  And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at TheStalwart. Follow our guest, Kathy Hochul, she's at Kathy Hochul. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Arment, Dashal Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com/oddlots, where we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you could chat about all these topics 24/7 in our Discord, discord.gg/oddlots.

• 47:13Tracy Alloway?

  And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you want us to do a three-hour deep dive on housing policy with Kathy Hochul, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

• 48:06Speaker 08

  If you enjoy Bloomberg podcasts, you'll love listening to Bloomberg 991 FM in the DMV. Hi, this is Amy Morris. Here in the district, the story is always changing, from the White House and Capitol Hill to K Street, Wall Street, and the Fed. Bloomberg 991 keeps you connected to the news that's driving decisions in the nation's capital and around the globe. Check us out at 991 FM or stream us anytime on the Bloomberg Business app.