Pod Insights Odd Lots Lots More on a Massive, Historical, Stagflationary Shock About this episode On Wednesday, President Trump unveiled sweeping tariffs against almost every country in the world. The size and scope was far beyond what anyone was anticipating, causing markets to subsequently plunge. But what's next? Could it work out for the US? Will we see a spike in inflation? Will the global trading system continue to operate? On this episode, we speak with Tom Orlik, the chief economist for Bloomberg Economics, on the historical nature of this stagflationary shock, and what happens to the US and global economies if these numbers remain in place. Read More:Economists Slash US Growth, Boost Inflation Forecasts on TariffsGermany and France Push for More Aggressive Tariff Response Only Bloomberg.com subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox — now delivered every weekday — plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlotsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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2:24 Joe Weisenthal? What a day, huh Tracy?
2:25 Tracy Alloway? What a day. Another day. Another crazy day. I don't know. I'm, I'm, I'm getting a little tired. Is tired the word?
2:33 Joe Weisenthal? I'm not. I'm exhilarated. I'm, I am not getting tired. I think this is why we get up in the morning. But as we are talking right now, which is April 3rd, Nasdaq's on 4.8%.
2:45 Tracy Alloway? Yeah, obviously. This is all because of Liberation Day and Donald Trump announcing his new reciprocal tariffs, which turned out to be a lot worse than a lot of professional analysts and economists had been expecting.
2:59 Joe Weisenthal? Yeah, I'm sure the market's just totally taken aback. Tom Orlik, how surprised were you by yesterday?
3:05 Speaker 05 We took him seriously.
3:08 Joe Weisenthal? But not seriously enough.
3:13 Joe Weisenthal? I did a deadlift.
3:14 Tracy Alloway? I am both the most popular trader and most successful trader at Citadel.
3:18 Joe Weisenthal? Fed is going viral.
3:20 Tracy Alloway? Uh, barges.
3:21 Joe Weisenthal? This is an after school special, except. I've decided I'm going to base my entire personality going forward on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the US. Black gold.
3:29 Tracy Alloway? These are the important questions. Is it robots taking over the world?
3:32 Joe Weisenthal? No, I think that like in a couple of years, the AI will do a really good job of making the Odd Lots podcast. One day that person will have the mandate of heaven.
3:42 Tracy Alloway? How do I get more popular and successful?
3:44 Joe Weisenthal? We do have. The perfect guest.
3:48 Tracy Alloway? You're listening to Lots More, where we catch up with friends about what's going on right now.
3:52 Joe Weisenthal? Because even when Odd Lots is over, there's always lots more.
3:56 Tracy Alloway? And we really do have the perfect guest.
4:02 Speaker 05 So on the campaign trail, Trump was talking about 60% tariffs on China, 20% tariffs on everybody else. And I think the reaction from Wall Street and the reaction from most in the economics profession was, this is red meat for the campaign trail. This is not a serious proposal. The US economy, the global economy, the global trade system wouldn't be able to survive. Tariffs at this level. And now here we are on April the third, one day after Liberation Day, and we've got tariffs at that level. For China, if you add it up, tariffs may even be a bit higher than 60%. So it's a huge shock. And I think the question people are going to be asking is, what's being liberated from what?
4:48 Speaker 05 Is the US being liberated from unfair trade practices from China and Europe? Or are US workers about to be liberated from their jobs? And US investors liberated from their returns?
5:01 Tracy Alloway? Yeah, kind of two different outcomes there. Tom, you were at our Washington DC event.
5:07 Speaker 05 Thank you, by the way.
5:08 Tracy Alloway? Thank you. You gave this great presentation showing some of your favorite charts at the moment. And you kind of made the point that when it comes to trade, the US has some legitimate grievances. Can you kind of walk us through that, especially in relation to China? And then also, if you think these tariffs are actually going to start alleviating some of those grievances?
5:33 Speaker 05 So I think it's interesting, Tracy, if we go back to the 1990s, it was a kind of unipolar moment for the United States, right? The Soviet Union had collapsed. China was still an early stage of its development. Its GDP was a kind of tiny fraction of that of the United States. And so the argument for free markets really made a lot of sense. Let's have low tariff barriers. US firms are the most competitive firms in the world. They're going to be the biggest winners from low trade barriers. And guess what? Additional bonus, if we trade with China, that's going to be a force for market reform in China.
6:15 Speaker 05 And maybe even, whisper it quietly, a force for democratic reform in China. That's not how things played out over the years that followed. China developed really quickly, up to the point where it became a rival to the United States for that biggest economy in the world, biggest geopolitical power spot. And China didn't reform. It's economy, it didn't become more market based and it certainly didn't reform its political system. And the US had a huge trade deficit and a lot of that trade deficit was with China. So jobs were being lost, opportunities were being lost, and even worse, they were being lost to America's biggest geopolitical rival. And that just doesn't make a huge amount of
6:59 Speaker 05 sense. And I think the Trump team and Trump himself deserve a bunch of credit for calling that out back in 2016 and saying, this isn't the deal we signed up for in the 1990s. This isn't the deal we signed up for when we invited China into the WTO. Something has to change. The big question is, well, now we've got these sweeping tariffs. Is this gonna deliver the realignment which Trump wants? Or could there be a sort of significant adverse consequence for the United States? Could the United States end up just cutting itself off from the rest of the world and actually accelerating its own decline, its own fading as a global power, rather than restoring American greatness as President Trump intends?
7:45 Joe Weisenthal? Well, right now, if you look at the market, it's clearly the latter. And the tariffs are not just on China, they're on countries that many people would say are friends or allies or countries that have not risen in industrial might at the expense of the United States.
8:00 Tracy Alloway? Nauru.
8:01 Joe Weisenthal? Nauru, yeah.
8:02 Tracy Alloway? A tiny island in the South Pacific.
8:05 Joe Weisenthal? You know, you started your answer by saying, when this was thrown out on the campaign trail, it was perceived that the global trading system could never survive something like this. We don't know, maybe there'll be renegotiations, the White House is not giving that indication as of the time we're talking about this. They're not indicating that they're gonna backtrack because of the market. They're not saying this is the start of deal talks. Can the global trading system survive the level of tariffs that we see, assuming this is what's that?
8:33 Speaker 05 So it's a difficult question to answer because we just haven't seen such big tariffs introduced in recent history. So we don't have much data we can use to estimate the impact. That said, we're making best efforts. What we've done is we've taken a computable general equilibrium model of the global economy. It's the same model which some of the economists at the World Trade Organization use, and we've used it to estimate the impact of this tariff shock. And if we focus for a moment on the China piece of it, well, if you put 60% US-China tariffs into the model, it tells you that that pretty
9:13 Speaker 05 much wipes out US-China trade. And that's pretty consequential, right? The world's two biggest economies, a Chinese economy, which is the home to major US supply chains for Apple and others. If those two economies just stop trading with each other, that's a huge, huge shock to the system. Thinking about the rest of the world, well, most places haven't been hit by such high tariffs, but still a pretty significant shock. Europe, for example, now facing 20% tariffs when they sell to the United States. If you plug that into the big model, well, that tells you Europe exports to the United States dropped
9:54 Speaker 05 by around 50%. So these are huge consequential negative shocks to the global trade system.
10:02 Tracy Alloway? When it comes to inflation, I mean, lots of economists right now are ratcheting up their inflation forecasts and ratcheting down their GDP forecast, to your point. On inflation, how much of the ultimate result, the increase in prices of imports into America, how much does that depend on companies absorbing the costs? And how do you go about trying to analyze that? Because it seems kind of, you know, a bit of a wild card.
10:31 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think it's a huge uncertainty. So if we think about Trump won and the trade war with China back then, a couple of things happened. So firstly, we had dollar appreciation and that offset some of the impact of the tariffs. Secondly, we had transshipment. So China carried on selling to the United States, but the goods went through Vietnam or they went through Mexico and that meant they dodged the tariffs. And thirdly, we had retailers absorbing some of the shock in lower margins rather than passing them on to consumers. So all of these things meant tariffs on China went up 25%, but the US consumer didn't really feel the shock. And I
11:16 Speaker 05 think that's maybe how the Trump administration are thinking about it this time around. This time around, though, I think there's going to be some pretty significant differences. So the first difference is, well, the economic textbooks tell us when you apply tariffs, the dollar should appreciate. But guess what? This time around, it's depreciating. So that isn't gonna offset the tariff shock on inflation. It's gonna amplify the tariff shock on inflation. Secondly, this time around is not just China, it's everybody. Everybody's hit being hit with the shock at the same time. And that means that that transshipment strategy, sending goods via Mexico or Vietnam, that's not gonna work. You're still gonna get hit with tariffs. And then
11:58 Speaker 05 thirdly, well, if you're hitting everybody at the same time, can a Walmart or Target really absorb all of that in narrower margins? Or is it just gonna have to start passing it on to the consumer? So the experience in the Trump term, Trump's first term was tariff shock, no impact on consumer prices in the United States. This time around, well, it's difficult to say there's a lot of variables at work, but I think this is going to be a stagflationary shock, pretty significant hit to US growth, pretty significant boost to US inflation. And that's why we're seeing this fierce stock market sell-off today and the US coming out worse than pretty much anybody else.
12:39 Joe Weisenthal? So crazy. Yeah, especially when you look at US versus every other stock market and how much everyone, how much more optimistic people are about the rest of the world. You know, there's this vision, right, that on the other side... That there's pain now, that we get to the other side and that there's this reindustrialization. And Trump talked about it yesterday. We're gonna make great cars with us, the state of the art manufacturing. We're gonna build chips again, all this stuff.
13:01 Tracy Alloway? The sunlit uplands of manufacturing.
13:05 Joe Weisenthal? What would have to happen for these tariffs to actually translate into? Or, cause like, I'm fine with taking some short term pain to be like, one of the most advanced technologically prosperous countries in the world. I see all those propaganda videos out of China with the drones and the cars. I'm like, yeah, I want that here. I'm susceptible to that too. I want like, all that stuff produced here. What would have to happen to go from today to that vision?
13:31 Speaker 05 Well, it's a tough one, Joe. So I think Trump will point to the pledges from Apple and TSMC and Nvidia and Hyundai and others to make massive investments in the United States and say, look, it's working. I made the tariff threat. Everyone's bringing their jobs and their factories back to the United States. I think it's probably a bit more complicated than that. Wages in the US are much higher than wages in China or Vietnam or Mexico. Infrastructure in the United States, well, there's not been a lot of investment in manufacturing infrastructure here over recent decades. Supply chains stretch across borders.
14:12 Speaker 05 If you're gonna impose massive tariffs, actually makes it harder to manufacture in the United States because factories are gonna have to pay that tariff to get crucial inputs. And of course, the uncertainty which Trump has introduced into the system and which he sees as crucial to get deals done. Well, that uncertainty makes it harder to plan, makes it harder to make long-term investment decisions. And that makes it harder to reshore manufacturing as well. So it's striking to me, if you look at all of those companies which said, we're making massive investments in the United States. Apple $500 billion, TSMC $100 billion. If you look at what happened to the share price of those companies on the day after
14:56 Speaker 05 the announcement, basically didn't move, right? Basically didn't move. And I think what that tells us is that markets, investors are pretty skeptical. They see those announcements perhaps as good government relations by those companies currying favor with the White House, rather than the big change in corporate strategy that we'd have to see if manufacturing was really going to come back to the US.
15:20 Tracy Alloway? Yeah, and on the topic of investment, there's no fiscal offset either. I mean, the administration is extending the tax cuts. That's basically the existing status quo. So it's not like the government is going to be funding a sudden rollout of investment to try to boost these industries. You mentioned stagflation earlier, Tom. What does the Fed do in response to stagflation?
15:45 Speaker 05 So it's a tough one, Tracy.
15:48 Tracy Alloway? You keep saying that.
15:49 Joe Weisenthal? I was just thinking, how do we get there? It's gonna be tough. Anyway, keep going. A lot of tough ones in our future.
15:56 Speaker 05 You know, this is the biggest tariff hike that we've seen in the United States going back over the course of 100 years. And it takes tariffs to their highest level in 100 years. So this is an absolutely enormous shock to the system. So I feel like somewhat justified in.
16:14 Joe Weisenthal? You are, you are, you are, Tom.
16:17 Speaker 05 It's a tough one. And so if you're the Fed, you see growth coming down, you see unemployment going up, you want to cut interest rates. But you see inflation rising because import prices are going up, and so you want to raise interest rates. So what's the impulse? What's the kind of the major impulse? Which one do you follow? Well. Some of the messaging which we've been hearing from Chair Powell is that the tariff impact on inflation, well, it could be transitory. If I was Chair Powell personally, I wouldn't be using the term transitory anymore. I think he kind of used that one up in the post-COVID shock. But there we are. There's the idea that the tariff impact on inflation is going to be transitory. And so what you have to respond to is the impact on growth. And so
17:02 Speaker 05 that would suggest the impulse for the Fed is going to be more rate cuts. That said, there's a bunch of uncertainty out there. We don't know how big the growth shock's going to be. We don't know how big the inflation shock's going to be. We don't know if inflation expectations are going to move. If we see inflation expectations staying high, well, that will be a sign that the tariff shock on inflation isn't going to be transitory. And the Fed's going to be tracking all of these things and weighing them in the balance.
17:44 Speaker 00 What's next for virtual assets? I'm Jacob Rees, host of Economy Scale, a series exploring growth in key global sectors. And in this episode, we're diving into the digital forces shaping finance. Sean McHugh from Dubai-based Virtual Assets Regulatory Authority has this to say.
18:00 Speaker 06 We're seeing a lot of institutional players come in, digital asset dedicated hedge funds, high-frequency traders and that sort of thing, and folks who service institutional clients.
18:09 Speaker 00 As more capital enters the market, adaptive regulation is likely to become increasingly key. Rees-Merrick of Ripple says.
18:17 Speaker 07 A lot of regulators globally would like to keep the industry at arm's length. That's the opposite here. I think also what you'll find is that regulation and frameworks can come out, but some of them are maybe a slight iteration on some 80-year-old policy and not actually in line with what the technology can do and offer. And again, that's very different in Dubai.
18:36 Speaker 00 Listen to the full episode wherever you get your podcasts. This series is brought to you by Bloomberg Media Studios and the Dubai Department of Economy and Tourism.
18:46 Speaker 01 This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. I'm Carol Muster. Millions of Americans are taking peptides, short strings of amino acids that can act as biological signals for cells. Peptides like insulin can occur naturally in the body, or they can be synthetically introduced to induce a biological process, as happens with semaglutide, the active ingredient in Ozempic. Now Bloomberg's Anika Inampudi reports peptides may be exploring their next frontier, the brain. People are taking peptides for mental clarity and cognitive benefits as alternatives to psychiatric medications and to gain a competitive edge or stave off the effects of aging. Both insulin and semaglutide are approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Because importing or selling
19:31 Speaker 01 unapproved peptides for human use is not legal in the U.S., many people turn to online forums for guidance and overseas vendors with questionable credentials to obtain them. Unapproved peptides, which are marketed as research chemicals, have been circulating in what's become a billion-dollar gray market amid the rise of do-it-yourself medicine as people increasingly turn to social media or artificial intelligence for medical help. Doctors warn against self-experimentation and advise talking to providers before trying any new therapies. That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Get started at ChatGPT.com.
20:09 Tracy Alloway? So we've established that it's tough at a minimum. What are you looking out for in terms of economic indicators, or I don't know, even corporate anecdotes to see which way things are going to go?
20:24 Speaker 05 So I think there's a few things we're going to be looking for in the days ahead. So the first one is going to be the retaliate or kowtow choice for other countries, right? Do we see China and Europe and Japan saying, okay, we don't want these tariffs. Tell us what you want and we'll give it to you and you can take the tariffs away? Or do we see them saying, you give us tariffs, we're going to give you tariffs right back? And if it's that retaliation path, that's going to amplify the Impact. Second thing I think we'll be looking for is whether the Trump administration just pivots because of the markets, right? We've got the Nasdaq down more than 4% today.
21:06 Speaker 05 If that slide continues into the end of the week, into next week, if we see a very significant and sustained market fall, it's possible that we'll see that Trump put come into play. And then in terms of indicators we're going to be looking at, well, of course, we're going to be tracking the import and export numbers. Another important one to look at is going to be the import price data. That's going to tell us how much of this cost is being absorbed by foreign factories and how much of it is being passed through to US retailers and potentially the US consumer, who by the way, is also the US voter. And midterms, well, 2026, not that far away.
21:49 Joe Weisenthal? Tracy, can I just say two things that struck me yesterday? One is, they knew this was going to slam the market.
21:54 Tracy Alloway? Oh, yeah. And they did it anyway.
21:56 Joe Weisenthal? This is a really big deal to me because this is not usual in his American politics. Some might even look at that and say, I'm impressed, right? Because you're like, well, for once, we have a president who is not so obsessed with the market. I don't know. I'm just saying, I think that's noteworthy.
22:09 Tracy Alloway? In his speech, he also talked about how much stock prices went up in his first term, which is, you can't have it both ways.
22:16 Joe Weisenthal? I thought that too. And then I just think it's, man, we had this multiple years of really high inflation. And the first thing that the new president does is push up the price of anything. It's really funny.
22:27 Tracy Alloway? Tom, I have one more question for you. This is a very important one. It's a bit of a loaded question, but here goes. How much fun did you have at our Washington DC event?
22:39 Speaker 05 Just an absolutely enormous amount of fun, Tracy. And my message to Odd Lots listeners is if Joe and Tracy come to your town, snap up a ticket immediately.
22:48 Joe Weisenthal? We didn't plan that. That was amazing. That was a perfect answer.
22:56 Joe Weisenthal? Lots More is produced by Carmen Rodriguez and Dashil Bennett with help from Moses Andam and Kale Brooks. Our sound engineer is Blake Maples. Sage Baumann is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to Odd Lots and Lots More on your favorite podcast platforms. And remember that Bloomberg subscribers can listen to all our podcasts ad free by connecting through
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